Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Jason Zengerle - Hated By All The Right People: The Rise Of Tucker Carlson

Transcript

Interview Only w/ Jason Zengerle - Hated By All The Right People: The Rise Of Tucker Carlson · The Chuck ToddCast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: frozen subscription box for sour dough breads, artisonal pastries, and
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: fresh pastas, plus all the items conveniently baked in twenty
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: five minutes or less. Unlike many store brought options, Wild
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Grain uses some simple ingredients you can pronounce and a
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: slow fermentation process that can be a lot easier on
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: your belly, little gut health there right, and richer in
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: nutrients antioxidants. There's also no preservatives and no shortcuts. The
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. In addition to their
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: variety box, they have a gluten free box, a vegan box,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: and a new protein box. I will tell you I
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: have done the gluten free box. I have done it
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: a second time. I have also used the code, the
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: todcast code. If you use the promo code toodcast at checkout,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: you get thirty dollars off. I've already used it as
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: a gift to somebody else who loves this bread. It
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: is hard to find good gluten free bread. It is fantastic.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: They give you step by step instructions. I really dig this.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: There is nothing like having an artesion bakery in your
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: freezer to chase away the winter chill. Now is the
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: best time to stay in and enjoy some comforting homemade
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: meals with Wild Grain. I obviously highly recommend it. It
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: is worth giving wild Grain to try. Right now, Wildgrain
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: is offering my listeners thirty dollars off your first box
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: plus free croissants for life. Come on when you go
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: to wildgrain dot com slash podcast to start your subscription today.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: That's thirty dollars off your first box and free croissants
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: for life when you visit wildgrain dot com, slash podcast,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: or simply use the promo code podcast at check out.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: This is a sponsor I absolutely embrace, so use that code.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: So one of the questions I constantly we get here?
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I think I've shared that with you with the audience
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: many a time, And there's a lot of ways we
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: can answer the how did we get here? How did
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: we get here? As far as the Democratic parties concerned,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: how did we get here? In the state of media.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Then there's the how did the conservative movement get to
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a point where it became Donald Trump? And what is
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: the conservative and what's even the definition of Conservative Today,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite conversations with my friends
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes and and so in that spirit,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: my guest today, Jason's Engerly, has a new book out
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: that at first Blush is going to seem like it's
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: a biography of Tucker Carlson, which it is not, But
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: it is an attempt to answer this question. First of all,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Jason's with me now, and Jason, I have to say
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I love the title of your book. I think the
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: title of your book. You know, it's like titles matter
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: a lot, hated by all the right people. Right which
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: is it does? It's Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: the Conservative mind. But your book is an attempt more
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: at trying to understand it. How did conservatism find its
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: way to Trump or vice versa. Less about Tucker Carlson.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: But Carlson's your vehicle for the conversation. Is is that
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: that I described the book correctly? Yeah?
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: I mean I think Tucker serves as kind of this
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: hopefully you know, compelling vehicle to tell the history the
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: last sort of thirty years of conservative media and conservative
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: politics because he started in such a different place from
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: where he's wound up, and I think his journey in
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: the various stops along the way, you know, kind of
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: reveals a lot about the incentive structure that exists in
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: both conservative media and conservative politics that has created the
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: situation we're now in.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Before I get to the larger issue here, but Tucker Carlson,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the individual, those of us that have had relationships with
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: him at different points in time in his professional life,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: you all have the same question what happened to Tucker?
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: And I imagine you you heard various explanations. How much
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: of it do you think? As you were pursuing this,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I was, I was having this conversation with my wife,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: you know, when I wrote a biography of Barack Obama,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I always one of my through line observations, and it
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: just was early on in my research, was, you know,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: how the relationship his white grandmother had with him and
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: the sort of the political lessons he took from her.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: They weren't necessarily political lessons, but what he took and
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: sort of made him a bit more risk averse and
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: just sort of navigating two worlds. Richie wrote his own
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: book about it, but also, you know, but you can't
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: on when you're writing about Obama. That's a part of
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: the story Tucker Carlson's origin story. I can tell you,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: ever since I read about the abandonment of Tucker by
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: his mother at at a young age, it has been
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: I can't unhear that, And it's at the core of
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: everything I get when I think about, well, why does
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Tucker do this that or the other thing? How much
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: does did that? I guess what I'm saying is like,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: how much did the personal journeys of Tucker Carlson and
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: the professional journeys? How did you sort of both disaggregate
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: that and messhit if you will.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: And I think I was more interested in the professional
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: journey than the personal journey. I mean, obviously, you know,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: if you're doing kind of if you were a psychoanalyzed Tucker,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: I think his mom leaving at the age of five
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: or six, and.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Well, it's a total it's the single most important thing
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: to understanding particularly and I'm going to speak for you know,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: it's an important explanation for my wife and understanding why
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: he says and thinks the things he does about women.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can I can definitely see that. I think
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: there's certainly list truth to that and just the journey
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: it sent him on. And I agree with that. I
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: definitely write about it in the book, but it's not
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: I don't. I don't dwell on it too much because, well, Tucker,
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: I think is a really interesting character and interesting person.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: He's not to me, at least, he's not that interesting,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: you know, Barack Obama, world historical, you know figure Tucker
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Carlson maybe not so much. So I think I wanted
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: to write about him more because of just the role.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: He's played the institutions.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: He's been a part of, kind of the larger story
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: he tells, you know, when look if he runs for
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: president in twenty thirty two, the person writing the book
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: then can get a little bit more into the details
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: of his.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Mom and his dad and all that.
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: But I do, and it is interesting, and he is
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: an interesting guy for that reason, and I do, And
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: you're right what your wife says, Actually, maybe I should
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: have considered a little bit more. It probably does have
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: a fair amount to do with his you know, thoughts
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: about women and gender roles.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: And the like.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: But I think that it's a more interested kind of
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: in his relationship with Bill Crystal than I am in
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: his relationship with his mom, because I think that in
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: a weird way. I mean, someone once told me that
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: the two most despised figures and most important figures in
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Tucker's life are his mom and Bill Crystal. And I
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: think sort of his relationship with Bill Crystal, Yeah, accounts
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: for a lot.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Of what he's doing today as well.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: So his anger at Bill Crystal is it? Is?
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: It?
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Is? It? Is it a personal vendetta? Is it? What
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: You like?
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: You understand it? Yeah?
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: I do, I think so. I mean, I think that
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: Tucker has told other people, and I think himself this
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: story about his his journey and about his changes, and
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: you know, it starts with him as a young, you know,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: very good magazine reporter at the Weekly Standard Bill Crystal,
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: the magazine that Bill Crystal founded, and that maybe he
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: was Tucker's first boss. And Tucker was a fairly you know,
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: run of the mill conventional conservative, maybe a little libertarian,
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: definitely a contrarian, but was very much with kind of
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: where the Weekly Standard was in terms of the things
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: that advocated for, including a very you know, aggressive foreign policy,
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: and Tucker supported the Iraq War, and you know, and
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: to his credit, he was one of the first Conservatives
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: to kind of renounce his support and recognize it for
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: the catastrophe that it was. But over the years, he's
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: kind of retconned his relationship to the Standard until Bill Crystal,
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: and he now kind of tells this story that he
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: was this young, naive writer who was used by the
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: neo cons to support the war in Iraq, to support
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: free trade deals, to support open borders, and that he's
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: now kind of making amends for that. His his his
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: stances today in some way our penance for what he
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: did earlier, now that he knows better, now that you know,
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: the scales have fallen away from his eyes, and Crystal
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: just looms so large in that story. And you know,
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: in recording the book and talking to plenty of people
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: who Tucker worked with and all that, Like, I don't
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: think that I don't think Crystal brainwashed him into supporting
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: the Iraq war. I don't think Crystal was this you know,
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: puppet master who was controlling Tucker. I think, you know,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: Tucker was capable of reaching his own opinions.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: But I think.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: To come to the critique that he has of kind
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: of you know, the political media elite, he kind of
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: needs a stand in, and I think Crystal has become
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: that for him and just and he really he looms
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: very large, just in Tucker's psyche and and in Tucker's
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: own explanations for why he's going to reach this point.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Well, look, I think why your book works in trying
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to use Tucker as a vehicle to explaining sort of
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: how did how did what people call the Conservative party
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: today end up here? And I say that because we're
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: so far away from sort of the definition of we're
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: so far away from the George Will conservatism, which maybe
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I'm being too overly simplistic, but I think that's what
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: most people, you know, in the eighties and nineties certainly
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: viewed that. You know, he was George Will was the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: intellectual avatar of conservative right.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: He was like a.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: Querkian conservative, I mean sort of you know, trying to
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: prove h.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And Tucker Carlson with his bow tie and his is
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: you know, attempting the nineties to virtue signal who he was,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: was clearly trying to say, Hey, I'm I'm a younger
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: version and maybe a cooler version of George Will. I'm
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: going to make conservatism cool. But at the same time,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna but but this is my path. It's funny
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: that he like saves his vehement venom for Crystal when
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: in public life, it was clear to me he was
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: trying so hard to be George Will. Yeah.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean I mean literally the bow tie, you know,
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: right down like yeah, I mean, you know, and he
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: got that from watching Will on the David Brewer Show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No,
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: he definitely modeled himself. And it maybe I mean, you know,
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: he's a waspy prep school kid. It might have been
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: hard for him to pass as a Jewish Neocon. But yeah,
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: he used to say he was an Episcopalian Neocon. I
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: think he was trying to sort of find this, uh
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: you know, blend the two together. But yeah, he was
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: very much, you know, a part of the not just
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: the conservative establishment, but like the political and media establishment.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: I mean he was, he was really he's very much
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: a creature of Washington, and he is.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: But you know, I will look, I'm going to defend
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: his outsider credential here a minute, and it goes to
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: something that I've observed of Gavin Newsom, and I think
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Tucker falls into this category. So Tucker was raised a
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Blue blood. Would you agree with that? Yeah, yes, but
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: in kind of a weird way. But yeah, correct, I mean,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Gavin News some same thing you are, you have you
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: don't personally have money. You actually your childhood was you know,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: you didn't have certain things that all the other rich
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: kids have. But you got the same education as the
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: rich kids. You end up at the same camps, you
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: got the same job access, college access. So it's like
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: it's it's such a strange thing. Like I think Gavin's
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: gonna have a hard time with this when he starts
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: running for president in that he is, he is going
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: to you know, he got all the benefits of being wealthy,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: but except for the money part, right, And that was
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: so Tucker was always an outsider, even when he was
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: invited on the inside. And I do you think he
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: wore that on his sleeve as a badge of honor.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: That was always my sense of him.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the question of Tucker and money is
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: an interesting one because look, obviously his mother was an
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: heiress the Miller family fortune from California, and then his
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: stepmother is was an heiress you know, the Swanson family
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: food frozen food fortune. But it's not clear how much
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: money was left by the time by the time Tucker
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: came along, I mean one his mother I think left
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: him one dollar in her will, and then his stepmother.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: I think maybe the family portion had been depleted a
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: little bit. I mean he was not for though, That's
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: what I mean.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: No, but he was also not He was not a
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: rich kid, even though he was raised like a rich kid.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but I think once I mean, putting aside
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: his childhood, I think once he got to Washington and
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: once he started his professional life there, Like he was
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: very much a member of the club, but he.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Was in a hurry. He was definitely in a hurry.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: He took whatever show wanted to put him on right,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: which is how he ended. Definitely he was, Yeah, he was.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: He was ambitious.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: But you know, he would get invited to the dinner
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: parties and the cocktail I mean the Georgetown cocktail party
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: that everybody sort of you know, makes fun of. Like
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know how much does exist, but Tucker was.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, you look at the people he was friends with.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: You look at the people whose weddings he went to.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: I mean you look at like the attendants at the
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: launch party for the Daily Caller and it's a it's
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: a it's a list of basically all of his enemies today,
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: all the people he you know, attacks for being members
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: of legacy media and the political elite. I mean, that
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: was that was the world that he lived in. And
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: he actually lived in d C. I mean, he wasn't
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: one of these like Colon Powell Republicans out in McLean.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: He was actually in the.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: City he loved.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: He loved DC.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: You know, he would I mean I remember him, you know,
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: encouraging people to live there, which was not something you
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: typically got from you know, Conservatives or Republicans in Washington.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: So I mean he had a very designated role within
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: that world. Like he was I think I think in
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: the book, I say he was like he was the
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: invited skunk at the garden party. I mean, people liked
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: him because he was going to say some thing that
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: was out tree or you know, you know, not sort
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: of hue to the kind of standard upper Northwest d
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: C liberal line.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: But they liked him for that. It's like, oh, that's
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: just Tucker, you know, and they're kind of like, by
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: the way, you know, who else is described that way
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: in New York City before he started running for president.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Yes, why did you invite Donald Trump to parties? Right?
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: You know who he was, but you kind of wanted that. Well,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: you know, he'll liven things up and we need a
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: lively dinner party. You're not wrong about that. That's where
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Tucker and Trump I think have a lot in common.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I think so. And I think just
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: the they're populism kind of playing this role of you know,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: class trader like they don't. I mean, you know, Donald
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: Trump always appears in a suit. Tucker still wears his
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: repties and his role life like. They're not trying. They're
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: not trying. You know, it's not John Kerry and the
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: hunting Jacket or anything. They you know, they they sort
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: of they have credibility in a way because they're not
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: pretending there's something they're not and they're able to say
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: I was in the rooms with these people. I saw
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: what they said about you when you weren't listening, and
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: I'm here to tell you this is what's happening. And
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: I think it's a pretty effective stick.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And yet here's a guy who was texting all these
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: terrible things about Donald Trump during January sixth and election
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: night twenty twenty.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's funny because a lot of people obviously
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: come back to those texts, and I think if you
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: you know, there is obviously a great difference in what
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: he said on air about Donald Trump and what he
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: was saying in those texts. At the same time, I
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: do think Tucker was a very His approach to Trump
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: during Trump's first presidency was very different from everyone.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Else at HAWKS.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, he did not he was not sort of
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: the throne sniffer that you know Hannity was or Laura Ingram.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: He clearly supported Trump's political project, but he he's he
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: kind of kept a certain distance from him personally. He
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: didn't engage in as much cul to personality stuff. But
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: the end of his presidency, like even on air, he
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: was he was pretty critical of Trump.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I mean during COVID, during the would pay this No.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: That was always what made Tucker a compelling It was
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: almost TV Yeah, Hannity, Hannity was predictable. Tucker was more
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: like O'Reilly, a bit like O'Reilly. What made O'Reilly more
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: interesting than Hannity, you know, no, always know where he
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: was going to come now, yeah, you know, yeah, you
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: know what he's going to do or see, And.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: I think Tucker that was sort of the way I
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: think he dealt with Trump off air too. You know,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Hannity was the you know, the shadow White House.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: You're doing great, mister president. Yeah, yeah, and really wanted
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: to be involved in everything. Loved going to the Oval office,
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: would call Trump all the time. You know, Tucker was
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: like famous at Fox for letting some of Trump's calls
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: go to voicemail.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: He really he didn't want to be He didn't want.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: To be identified too closely with Trump. You don't want
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: to be seen with Trump. Sometimes he just he was
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: he was careful about That's very different than the way
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: he's handling it now.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: So you know, there the other aspect to Tucker that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I think for me, the more I think about it
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: and the more I read your book, the more I
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: understand why he has this some affinity for Trump is
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: that he's even at Fox when he first you know,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: he had to do weekend Fox and Friends, right, he
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: was not considered good enough for the top slot. I
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: believe he was like a herd here. Yeah, I believe
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: he did Weekend Fox and Friends. As like they didn't
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: pay him. They're like he was willing to do it
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: for almost nothing because he just wanted to promote The
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Daily Caller.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Is that? Is that?
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: What I like in my understanding is when he first
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: got to Fox, it was just a standard sort of
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: low paying contributor contract.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: By the time he got the Fox and.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: Friends, you know, for full time week gig, I think
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: I think it stepped up and pay. But it was
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: definitely he he would have worked at Fox for free.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: I mean he was He really wanted to both promote
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: The Daily Caller and kind of maintain a to hold
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: in cable news because after you know, Fire, after getting
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: washed out at CNN and MSNBC, Fox is the only
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: place left. And I think he was he was really
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: happy when they took him on, and the little morsels
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: they would throw.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: To him, he was happy to have.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Well he to me is the reminder that Fox is
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: bigger than the than the individuals. Does he know that still?
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Because you know, essentially Fox was like, we can put
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: anybody on in primetime watch and they were kind of right.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: They were well, they were right about that.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Like Jesse Waters obviously has you know, fantastic ratings seemingly.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: And who is other than like a mid level producer
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: for O'Reilly At one point he decided to put on
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: air now that and that was.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: Always Roger Ailes's theory of the case. I remember that
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: famous line, I could put a dead raccoon on the
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: air and I'd get better ratings than I did last year.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: So that was that was definitely the way Fox operated.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: But I do think the Tucker in part because his
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: rise at Fox occurred after Ales left. In a way,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: he did become bigger than the network. He was allowed
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: to get away with things there that I think other
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: other stars had not been able to get away with them.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: That was partly because the als was no longer there.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: I think the other big difference is that when he
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: did leave Fox, I think a lot of people assumed
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: that he will disappear the same way Bill O'Reilly has disappeared,
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: the same way you know, Glenn Beck kind of has
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Megan Kelly basically a little bit back now. But you know,
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: they would face kind of a diminishment of their standing,
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: and that really hasn't happened. He is, you know, I mean,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: I would argue he's actually more influential today than he was.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: He's a kind of I think within trying to figure
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: that out within the Trump administration and I think within
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: kind of the MAGA universe. Yeah, I think he's become
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: I think he's become maybe more influential and just as
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: just as significant, if not more so, than he was
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: than he was when he was at Fox, because I mean,
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: and you can, I mean, look like you probably as
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: much better than I do, just the way media is changing.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: I don't think he wanted to get fired from Fox, obviously,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: and I'm sure he was very upset when it happened.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: At the same time, it it was almost a mix.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: It was kind of a blessing in disguise because he's
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: been able to sort of enter into this new world
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: that is becoming so important. He's gotten to head start
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: all the people at Fox. Cable News is, you know,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: a dying medium, and he doesn't have to operate with
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: any I mean, he had very few guardrails at Fox
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: by the end, but now they're none, and that is
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: actually like a fairly big advantage in this, in this
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: in a certain moment, No.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: There's no doubt.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's he couldn't.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, he could not have had Nick Flintez on
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: his show at Fox and now he can. I'm not
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: saying that's a good thing, but I think it it.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: He has had to learn how to master the attention
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: economy a lot sooner than I think other people in
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: his you were in his position, have had to figure out.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: And he's he's done it in such a way that
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: I think he's kind of setting himself up for a
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: longer run.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: by Quints, and I love me some Quints. New Year,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Colder Days. This is the moment your winter wardrobe really
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: has to deliver. If you're craving a winter reset, start
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: with pieces truly made to last season after after season.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Quint springs together premium materials, thoughtful design, and enduring quality
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: so you stay warm, look sharp, and feel your best
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: all season long. Quins has everything you need men's Mongolian
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: cashmere sweaters. I have one. I have to say, really
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: into it. They have wool coats, leather, and swed outerwear
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: that actually hold up to daily wear and still look good.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Their outerwear is especially impressive. Think down jackets, wool coats,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: and Italian leather outerwear that keep you warm when it's
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: actually cold. Each piece made from premium materials. Quints delivers
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the price. The result is classic styles. You'll love that
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: hold up year after year. You know me, I love
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: me and my quarter zips. Quinn says, quite a few
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: of them. They're great, They're both light and warm. There's
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: nothing harder than business casual. Right, you get these things?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: What can I wear? What can you wear at the meeting?
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: What do you wear on a zoom? I have to
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: say it's as if Quinn sort of says, hey, look,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: we've got the modern sort of working wardrobe ready for you,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: clothing that looks stylish, looks good, but is actually practical
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: and isn't going to break the bank. So refresher winter
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: wardrope with Quints go to quins dot com slash chuck
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: for free shipping on your order and three hundred and
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: sixty five day returns. And it's also available in Canada.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: That's q u i nce dot com slash chuck, free
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns quints
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: dot com slash chuck. So do you think he's the
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: natural air to rush? Now? You know, as we've been
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: all trying to figure out that even if play Travis
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: and Buck Sexton might have the Rush time slot.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, think radio is not a.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, I mean the way Rush kind
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: of had his relationship with Reagan and HW Bush and
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: then Bush. I think I think Tucker's relationship with Trump,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: when I say he's influential, maybe more influential, I think
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: it's because he has the way he has just attached
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: himself to Trump now and his relationship with Vance, which
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: is I think even closer than it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Is with Well he was at that that to me
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: seems to be fascinating that that's a real Do you
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: buy that that's real, That that's a real relationship. I
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: think it's a genuine relationship.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: And I think that.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: I don't think JD. Vans is vice president without Tucker.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: I don't think Jady Vance is Center from Ohio without Tucker.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I mean the amount of airtime that Tucker gave him
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: when he was running for Ohio Senate on his show,
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: I think, among Ohio primary voters, probably the most important
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: show on television. There's certainly more than any local news show.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: And then, in addition to that, and perhaps even more importantly,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: the degree to which he lobbied Trump during that Senate
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: campaign to endorse jd Vance, which was something Trump did
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: not want to do because jd Vance had said so
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: many bad things about him. You know, Tucker and Don
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Junior really put on a full court press and got jd.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: Vance the endorsement at the end of that primary, which
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: and I don't think Javid Vance wins that primary without
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Trump's endorsement. So the degree to which Tucker played a
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: role in getting Trump's endorsement, which I've been told was,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: you know, a fairly substantial role.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: That's important.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: And then obviously during the twenty twenty four campaign, when
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: there were the deepstakes going on, you know, Tucker was
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: one of the biggest voices cheerleading for Vance. And look
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: like they are, they are so ideologically aligned right now.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: I think I think you just look at sort of
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: the issues that Vance focuses on, the positions he stakes out,
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: and even just the stories he tells like they're they're
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: kind of ripped from the Tucker Carlson Show. There's there's
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: a lot of there's I think he kind of has
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: molded himself in some ways in Tucker's image.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Well, it goes to this you know, there's sort of right,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: there's economic conservatism, religious conservatism, and cultural conservatism. And I
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: think where Tucker has his biggest influences on sort of
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: shaping what the cultural conservative movement cares about. Right, And
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: it's the whole grave incient Yeah, this is why. It's
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: what Rush Limbaugh did best. Right, Rush was not a
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: policy want He was not going to tell you how
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: to come up with an alternative on healthcare to to
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: go up against Obama. Right, that that's just not he
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't He didn't care about policy. He cared more about
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: his status, right, and his you know, and and ultimately right,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Tucker's personal status and the white male grievance sort of right,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: inter he sort of interlocked, and he became this avatar
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: for grievance for white men. Yeah, oh definitely.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, so much of his persona, so
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: much of mis appeal is about you know, white grievance,
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: similar to Trump, similar to Dance.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: There really is white male grievance. It's not even just
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: white greens. Yeah, whatever, Yeah, I think that's right.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, and there look like Tucker, I
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: mean in a way that I don't think Brush Limbaugh
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: was I think Tucker is. I think Tucker is smarter
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: than Russell INVA.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I think he I think he has like he's probably
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: reads intellectually a bit more curious that negatively, like, yeah,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I think Rush cared about golfing after he was done
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: with the show, where yeah, if Tucker is going to read.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: You know, it is going to keep reading, like, you know,
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: got his joke about golfing is I think so when
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: people ask him, you know, do you golf, he says no,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: I still like to have sex. So he's not a
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: big golf fan.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: We know that much.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but Tucker does read. He's got I mean, he
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: does have like a pretty sort of compelling critique of
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: you know, consumer capitalism. I mean it's not it's not
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: all that dovetails with the grievance, but there there is,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: you know, And I think that's one of the reasons
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: I think why he advanced. Are you know so simpatico
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: And they both are smart guys who read a lot,
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: who have sort of a more textured understanding of these things,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: and say, like Donald Trump is just going to be
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: in this lizard brain populism. H Tucker advance or a
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: slightly more.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Because Tucker want to solve the problem. I get this
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: sense you didn't think he does.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know the problem in someone is
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: what feeds his success, right, I mean so yeah, I
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: mean I I think if you could at the end
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: of the day, if you could sort of just say,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: all right, we the United States can go back to
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties and you know what everything that that means,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: and maybe you won't be on your you know, your
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: podcast anymore. My guess is he would take that, you
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: would take that sort of trade. I mean, I do
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: think that he has like a very at this point
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: sincere vision of what he wants the country to be.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I don't think he's just saying the things he's saying
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: purely for ratings, I think, And I don't think he
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: just wants to be a podcaster. I think that he
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: has a larger a larger project and larger ambitions than.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: What is what do you what is?
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know he also started a tobacco company.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, does hease? Oh yeah, well that's.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: Everything else too, right, Yeah, he wants the he wants
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: the manosphere to run things. No, but he I think
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: you know, he he has you know, a real sort
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: of preference for traditional gender roles and restricted rights for
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: you know, gay people, and and a country that a
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: lot whider than it is today, you know, filled with
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: legacy Americans or heritage Americans. I think that he, you know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: that that's something that he wants, and I think he
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: hopes that the elected officials that he supports, you know,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: make that happen. And I think that you know, in
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Trump and especially in advanced at least advance right now,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: I think those are those are pretty good vehicles for that.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Actually, the more I cycled through my brain, Pat he's
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: more Pat Buchanan than Rush Limbo.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Buchanan's a really important figure. And yet
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: he was probably very critical of Buchanan in the nineties.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: I'm sure he did music. Yeah, well, I mean, look,
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: it's like the Weekly Standards mission in the nineteen nineties
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: was to like read Pat Buchanan out of the conservative movement.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: But and I think this is actually quite sincere on
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Tucker's part. When he saw what happened in Iraq and
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: when he got off the bandwagon very early, I think
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: he reassessed all of the people who he had been
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: sort of told we were wrong and hat. Buchanan was
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: first among them, and he started and he basically started
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: to wondering what else were they?
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: What were they right of?
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Buchanan was right about Iraq? What else was he right about?
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: And you see, even going back to his MSNBC days,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: he was pretty he really shifted on immigration early. Like
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: he was talking about building a border wall, you know,
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: back when he was on MSNBC, Like he in Buchanan
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: and Rachel Maddow would debate about it, and he and
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: Buchan would be talking about building the wall, and Matt
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: Now of course, would be against it. I think that
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: I think that the Iraq experience for him really was
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: you know, a pretty pretty important inflection point and kind
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: of changing his his ideological uh you know, just trajectory?
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Did he is that?
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny that he blamed Bill Crystal for this,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: but it was the Bush administration that really used and
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: abused reporters who were more than the Bush administration.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, his best friend, the guy who now runs
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: his media company with him, Neil Tatel, was Scooter Libby's
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: chief of staff. He was in Dick Cheney's office. And yeah,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: the degree to which he blames Bill crystal and not
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: NEI able to tell. Makes me think that there's a
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: little bit more going on there.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Well, is that the root of his anti Semitism that
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: he seems to be flirting with right now is that
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: is it all He's angry at Bill and Bill's Jewish.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: This is a theory that people who know him well
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: have you know, offered to me that that it was
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: crystal and then just you know, beyond that, that basically
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: all the people he really disagreed with and who were
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: attacking him were Jewish neocons, and therefore a way that
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: he could needle them was to criticize Israel, and that
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: was sort of where it started. I don't think people
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: necessarily think that's what's driving it. Now that it is,
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: it is blossomed into something else.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: I'm only enough to remember when you had guys like
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Bob Novak and Pat Buchanan who were were openly critical
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: of of of unilateral of sort of blind support for
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Israel militarily. They were, you know, and and they were
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: definitely in the in their party, but it wasn't like,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: you know, it's funny how we've allowed, you know, support
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: for Israel to become this litmus test on anti Semitism
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: when there used to be a bit more diversity in
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: both parties on this issue.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, although I think I think Buchanan got sort
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: of hit with the anti semitism charged more than Novak did,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: although I guess Novak got it a.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Little bit too. Tucker.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah. The way Tucker talks about Israel now, it's I
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: think he goes even further sometimes than where.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And this is where I don't think he believes half
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: of what he says, but he's looking for the reaction.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: And I guess this is that to me, this is
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: the thing that you leave unresolved. And I would have
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: done the same thing, which is what does he believe?
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I look, it's impossible to know. I think what
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: he believes. And I think you see this, and this
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: is a real through line through conservative media is he
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: does not want to be out of step with the audience.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: And you saw this, you know clearly in the texts
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: the Fox News texts during theinion that came out during
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: the dominion on lawsuit. You know, the way they're dealing
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: with January six, and they're all terrified of their audience.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: And I think today Tucker is making the calculus that
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: the conservative audience and the energy and especially among younger
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: people is with critics of Israel with you know, borderline
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: anti Semitic critics of Israel, with neo Nazis like Nick Quintez.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: He thinks that's where things are headed, and he wants
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: to make sure he's ahead of that. You know, he's
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: skating to where he thinks the fuck is man.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: I'll just be honest, I guess I'm personally so resentful
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: of that kind of process. I mean, especially those of
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: us that are trying to build an information first you
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: know ecosystem, right, which is when you let the audience
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: be your managing editor. This is how we go down
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: this Nobody believes anything that they read or see.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think he tried that for a little
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: bit of a little while the Daily Caller and realized
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: pretty quickly that that was that.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Was not going to be successful.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Now, early Daily Caller really wanted to be Yes, it
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: was certainly you know, it was going to jab at
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: legacy media whenever it could and play that card. But
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: they seemed genuinely interested in reporting stories. Oh yeah, and
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: that was the whole theory of it.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: It was gonna you know, he gave that speech at
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Sea Pack in two thousand and nine where you know,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: he said nice things about the New York Times, and
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: he had that famous quoting of accuracy. Isn't your goal
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: as a media company, like you have no future, you
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: won't succeed. But I think he realized pretty early on,
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: just by looking at the traffic numbers, that there wasn't
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: an audience for that among conservative media, you know, consertive
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: media consumers, and he shifted and and he's I think
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: that in a lot of ways is the story of
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: you know, the past fifteen years, both for him and
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: for lots of other figures, just wanting to be in
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: sync with what you know, viewers and readers are expecting.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Well, so this gets into an unanswerable question, but I'm
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: gonna ask it anyway, which is what is the definition
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: of conservatism in real America? I e. Those that don't
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: you know versus how you and I are defining it?
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Maybe by what? But the programs that are geared towards conservatives, right, like,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: the programs seem a lot more radical than the conservatives
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I interact with on a daily basis.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Well, I guess it depends on what concerns you're interacting with, right,
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, he I mean conservatism, you know, it's it's
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: not recognizable.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: What it was pre Trump.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: And you know, I think there are people who are
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: opposed to Trump who are trying to maintain kind of
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: they believe that there's a future or there is a
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: conservative movement that's independent of Trump. And you know, you
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: see that at like you know, like you mentioned, I
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: think like Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Earlier, Yeah, the Dispatch, what they were trying to what
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: they're trying to build back, you know.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: And that's what I think Crystal was trying to do
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: for a little while. Though he's not really trying to
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: do that anymore. He's he might as well be a
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: liberal at this point. But I think that that's that's
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: a vanishingly small number of people. And you know, conservatism
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: has been subsumed by Trump. And I think I think
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: for people like Tucker and people like JD. Vance, I
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: think the question is can that exist independent of Trump
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: or after Trump? I think they have a real ideological
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: vision of a conservatism that is obviously very populist, Is
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: you know, nativist? Is it sort of a blood and
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: soil conservatism. Most are returned to you like a Taftian
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: kind of conservatism.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you brought up taff because it actually
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: is part of my next foot and so I just happened.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: You know, these interviews are going to air at different times,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: but I had an interview earlier that I think is
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: actually going to air after this one airs. So my
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: apologies to my audience's about It's a book about Teddy Roosevelt.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: And what's interesting about Teddy, right is the fact that
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: he was sort of an outlier in the concern in
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: the Republican Party when he was named vice president. He
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: was popular as president, so the party accepted him, and
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the second he left the party, they went back to
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: who they were. And I've been thinking about this with
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, right, which is Trump is arguably the larger,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: larger in life figure that the party hasn't really had. Yeah,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: you might argue Eisenhower considering the role he played in
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: saving the free world, but really since Teddy, and there's
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: always been this question, has Trump changed the conservative movement
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: forever or will conservatism go back? Well after Teddy, it
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: actually went back to the pre Teddy conservatism. We're all
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: assuming this won't.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: Why are we all so sure? I think that's the
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: you know, the key question. And I'm and when you
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: say all of this, I don't know.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I actually don't know.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know either when I say those of us
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: that do this for a living, right, we're trying to,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: you know, in our own ways, trying to figure out
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: where are we, how do we get here, and where are.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: We going next?
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Right in general and with the conservative movement, you know,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, first I want to define what the hell
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: is conservatism right now? And what is it going to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: be in five years?
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah?
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: No, I think it's a real question. Is is it
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: just a cult of personality around Trump? Or are there
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: are there people out there who they believe in Trump,
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: but they also believe in you know, this this harsh
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: immigration policy and the tariffs and all these other things
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: that have come along with Trump, so that if someone
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: who isn't Donald Trump is you know, supporting those things,
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: they would support them. And I think that people like Tucker,
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: you know, people like Steve Bannon to a degree, people
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: like JD. Vance like they're they're thinking the latter. They
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: think it's about it's about the policy issues and the
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: political positions.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: And they're.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: They they think that there's like a coherence to to
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: trump Ism and to magasm that extends beyond the person.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, Donald Trump is you know, a singular
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: figure and a very magnetic figure for a lot of people.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: But but I think that there are people like Tucker
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: who think that it's also what Trump is, you know,
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: what he's saying about the issues, and therefore you know
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: there's there's going to be some staying power. I think,
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: you know, they also recognize, people like Tucker that they
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: do understand Trump's magnotism, they understand his charisma, they understand
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: his his ability to entertain. And I think that's always
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: been that's been a real question about whoever comes after Trump.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: So much of Trump's success is, you know, predicated on
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: that that capacity he has. I don't think Jade Vance
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: can do that. I actually do think Tucker can. I mean,
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: he is an entertainer if nothing else. And I think that,
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: you know, when you think about who could kind of
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: try to who could succeed someone like Trump and keep
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: those those kind of policies alive and those arguments alive
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: and also just be a compelling figure for people. I
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: think Tucker, to me at least strikes he seems like
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: someone who could do that.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Do you think, you know, one of the things, one
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: of the things I've observed about Trump over the years
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: is how many people claw their way into his orbit,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: thinking they can manipulate him. And they do it for
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, and eventually the t Rex bites
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: their head off, right, and they figure out, you know,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: people try to griff Trump and Trump, you know, you
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: might be smarter than him in the moment, but he'll
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: eventually be smarter than you in the long run. Is
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Trump using Carlson or is Carlson using Trump?
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: I think they're using each other. I think that's why
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: it's actually been kind of a successful role.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: They know it.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: I think that's why a weird way they know what
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: they each know what the others doing. And yes, it's
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: why it works.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: And yeah, and I think there's a fair amount of
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: like kind of transparency and honesty there. I do think
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: they enjoy each other personally as far as I can
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: you know tell from my reporting like that.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: By the way, they're both very good dinner party people. Yeah,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, you can't be this successful
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: in a public medium without being that.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think I think there's like a genuine
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: kind of that they both get a kick out of
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: each other. And I think that you know, kind of
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: recognizes what Tucker gives him in terms of sort of
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: you know, support in certain corners of the conservative movement.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: And I think Tucker clearly recognizes what Trump gives him
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: in terms of just relevance. You know, once he was
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: fired from Fox, he really had to and lost that
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: built in audience. He had to start thinking about what
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: can I do to stay in people's you know, in
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: their heads, I mean, keep their attention to.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: Be angry at the Murdocks feel yeah, yeah, I mean
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: he says he's not, and he talks about how, you know,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: River Murdock was like the best boss he ever had.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: But oh, I yes, I think so.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: I think in the same way that Trump is angry
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: at the Murdocks, I think that I think that was
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: actually the basis in a lot of ways for this
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: this second sort of you know, phase of their relationship
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: is when Tucker was fired from Fox and when Trump
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: was trying to reschart his political career after January sixth,
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, Trump was curious at the Murdocks for the
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: way that they tried to disappear him, the way they
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: were supporting DeSantis. Their interest totally aligned. And I mean,
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember, but you know, the
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: first up debate Fox was carrying, and Fox put on
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: a full court press to make sure Trump would show
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: up for it because any of the ratings weren't going
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: to be good, and Trump kind of strung them along.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: And all the while he's talking to Tucker and they're
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: plotting to have this you know, sit down interview that
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: they're going to put on X that's going to air
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: at the same time as a debate and be counter programming.
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, they I think they both wanted to stick
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: it to Murdoch.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what, Trump, what do you feel like?
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Let me ask this, did you interview Tucker for this book?
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Not for this book?
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: No, I've interviewed Tucker many times over the years. I mean,
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: why didn't you interview him for this book? Because I
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: tried extremely Yeah.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: No, I mean I'm surprised, why why do you because
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: he weirdly, you know, I'm surprised he didn't even give
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: you the Yeah, I'll sit down with you even though
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I don't trust you at all type of mindset.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, Tucker, someone like I first met
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: Tucker when I was an intern at the New Republic,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: and he was the Weekly Standard, and I.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Felt like other sibling. Those always felt like sibling publications
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: in the nineties, right, I mean we all knew the simile.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: They were both magazines, one from the last time.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: I was not friends with him, but he was definitely
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: someone that I knew, and.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: You were probably friendly, you know, reason not to be friendly,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: and I.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Had I had the same relationship with him as I
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: think so many political reporters who probably talked to Tucker,
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: and he's he would you know, you would text him,
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: he would call you back in five minutes, and and
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: and actually, you know, I really enjoyed talking to him
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: in part because even though he was no longer a
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: magazine writer, he definitely like kind of retained magazine writer
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: muscle memory, and he was understand about stories like you.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, I would mean almost all you're talking to
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: a colleague like he would just sort of he would
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: be interested in what you were doing.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: By the way we kept talking about him in the past,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: tense is if is if this because the Tucker I mean,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: and and maybe that's it is the Tucker Carlson we
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: knew dead or alive.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: I think he's still alive to some people. I think
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: I think the thing would have changed with me and
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: you know him was as soon as he went from
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's that, there's that Novak expression. You know,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: you're either a source or or a target. I think
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: when he went from source to target, that's when he
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: no longer wanted to talk and you. And he said
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: when when I first approached him out book, he was,
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: you know, I'd love to talk to you.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: You know, this is great.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: And then you know, and then but I'm not sure
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: if Fox will let me and sort of we had
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: a long you.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: Know, backup.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: So you've been doing this since he was at Fox?
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I start, yeah, oh wow, this is always important.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah wow. So when did you first start this book
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: and how much does it change?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: So I started it in twenty twenty one. Okay, I'm
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: not proud of that. It's lease. It took me. I
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: did it too, you I did it took me six
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: years to fulfill it to your book contract.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: So okay, yeah, so I think we're on the same timeline.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: So I started it in twenty one and uh, you know,
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: and his and ultimately he said he couldn't talk to
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: me because Fox wouldn't let him, even though I really
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: wanted to. And then after he was fired, I went
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: to him. It was like, hey, you know, you can
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: talk now, and then he didn't even you know, respond that.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: So I think he just made the calculus that you know,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: it would probably be easier to attack it or dismiss
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: it if he didn't cooperate at all, but he I
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: think he still talks to plenty of reporters.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: I know, I hear about this all the time. Yeah.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben Smith thrown a piece back and that, you know,
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: I don't know, four or five years ago in the
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Times about you know, sort of Tucker bashes the medium,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: but he's also like their favorite source.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Do you hate hangovers? We'll say goodbye to hangovers. Out
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: of Office gives you the social buzz without the next
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: day regret. They're best selling. Out of Office gummies were
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: designed to provide a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: and enhance creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths, you
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: can tailor the dose to fit your vibe, from a
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: gentle one point five milligram micro dose to their newest
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: fifteen milligram gummy for a more elevated experience. Their THHC
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: beverages and gummies are a modern, mindful alternative to a
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: glass of wine or a cocktail. And I'll tell you this,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: I've given up booze. I don't like the hangovers. I
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: prefer the gummy experience. Soul is a wellness brand that
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: believes feeling good should be fun and easy. Soul specializes
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: in delicious hemp derived THHC and CBD products, all designed
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: to boost your mood and simply help you unwind. So
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: if you struggle to switch off at night, Sol also
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: has a variety of products specifically designed to just simply
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: help you get a better night's sleep, including their top
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: selling Sleepy gummies. It's a fan favorite for deep, restorative sleep.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: So bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Soul today. Right now, Soul is offering my audience thirty
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: percent off your entire order, So go to get sold
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: dot com use the promo code toodcast. Don't forget that code.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: That's getsold dot com promo code toodcast for thirty percent off.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: You know, we sort of personally character assassinated me on
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: one of his segments. I was like, okay, I'm out.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I was done with them, and he was
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: just attacking my employer. But he decided to use me
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: as the vehicle, which is just like you know, was
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: typical of that era, right, what cable news was. And
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: I just found it to be unseemly by him, and
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I made that clear to him, and he just used
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: it all. I got the sense he just thought I
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: was being too sensitive, like, hey, you're lucky. I'm mentioning you.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: This is good for you. Like it was always the
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: attitude Trump had, which is we're just in this attention
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: economy together. And that's why there's a sense of Tucker
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: when it's like, boy, he seems to live in reality,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: but I don't know what he believes. Yeah, I think
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: his reality has changed a lot, though.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: I mean I think that you know, when he left
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: Washington back I think in twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen,
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: after protesters went to his house and you know, scared,
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: he was not home, but his wife was home, and
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: there are people outside the house, Channing, we know where
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: you live. I think that I think I think Washington
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: had already become fairly inhospitable to him.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: You know, he was, yeah, it was look, I was yeah, yeah,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: it was funny. But running we worked in the same
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: building and he couldn't make eye contact with me if
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: we passed each other in the hall. And it was
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: the strange thing. And it wasn't just me, it was
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: that he was so because he had to tape in
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: that building and he'd like it was like he was
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: afraid of engaging in any conversation, so he was like
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: averting eye contact with everybody.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he I mean, he's really shrunk his circle. And
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: now you know, he lives and he lives on two islands.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: He lives on an island in Maine and an island
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: in Florida, and you know where once he used to
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: hang out and have lunch with, you know, David Brooks
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: and Bill Crystal and all those guys. Now it's you know,
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: Don Don Junior and Theo Vaughn. I mean, he's just
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: completely sort of traded one set for another set, and
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: I think I think his world has you know, he would,
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, he would say it's not constricted, because he
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: would say, you know, you'd be constricted when he was
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: hanging out with Bill Crystal, David Brooks. But but it's
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: he's he's in a he's in a bit of an
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: information bubble himself.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: So come twenty twenty eight, there's going to be a
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: fight for control or for influence in the conservative movement.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson and JD. Vans are in one camp. Who
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: are the camps? Who are the entities that you expect
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: to engage in this essentially a competition of some sort.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Whether it's a competition of ideas or or influence is
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: an open question. I feel like the Tucker.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: JD.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Vance camp is I mean, they're going to be sort
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: of gradations of that.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: I feel like the only person who's staking out a
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: position that's completely separate from that and actually in opposition
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: to that is Ted cruz.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: Well, and he's personally gone after Carlson. Right, Yeah, they
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: called it qutar Carlson, Like that's a new thing that
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: someone them have.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's using Tucker as this avatar to basically
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: he's he's really going after Vance for that, right, I mean,
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: but he's using it it's easier to go after Tucker exactly,
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: So he's using Tucker as a stand in. But I
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: really think I actually, i'd be curious you think. I mean,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: I feel like Ted Cruz is sort of like the
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: last at least for this very moment. He's like the
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: only sort of non lood and soil nationalist Republican out there,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: and only prominent one. He's sort of actually kind of
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: planting his flag there. Yes, And Rand Paul, yes, is
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: a pure liberty yes exactly, that.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Is going to plan a slightly different flag that is, yes,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: that you know, it'll be interesting. It's it's you know,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: he Paul, you know Paul. No presidential candidacy suffered more
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: from the rise of Trump right away than Rand Paul.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Rand Paul had the outsider lane to himself until Donald
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Trump showed up. And the first guy who lost all
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: of his he had this He started out like with
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: a solid fifteen percent, which is pretty good in it
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: when you're kicking off, and it was something to build on.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: It was he inherited much of his father's and it
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: was sort of a bit different, right, It was that
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: and and Trump just ooped it all up. And it
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: is a portion of the mega movement. Right, So yes,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Paul saying this but a libertarian, Yeah, yeah, and.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: It's you know, and it's and it's, uh, you know,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: Trump's kind of America firsty is. So it's so malleable
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: at this point, right, Like you can be against sort
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: of these wars, but you can also support them.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the joke at the White House
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump's the least maga of everybody in
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: the room.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: I think that's I think Tucker's found that out. I
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: think Tucker really believed a lot of that stuff and
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: he was really I think, you know, he and when
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: I say he's influential, like I think, you gotta gotta,
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: I gotta put the caveat like, you know, he's not
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: that influential. I mean he if he'd had his brothers,
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: we would not have attacked Iran, probably not Venezuela.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Though it's kind of interesting the way he.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Hasn't criticized the Venezuela operation the way he criticized the
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: Iran one.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: But he wasn't critical of the idea before it happened.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: He was critical before it happened, and once it happened,
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: he totally cooled his jets, which I thought, you know,
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: it was kind of a a good sign that he's
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: he's not you know, he's he's he doesn't want to
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: be seen as too out of step with Trump. He
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: you know, I think he knows where his bread is
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: butter just in terms of keeping his relevance and he
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: that's a that's a relationship that I think he's more
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: interested maybe in preserving than he was before. But but
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: I think like you're right about Paul, like he he
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: definitely you know, will have He's staking out a position
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: that's different from others. But I feel like, you know,
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: it's it's cruise Paul and then and then that kind
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: of Tucker, JD and then who. There will be other candidates,
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: but I think they're going to be wary of straying
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: too far from where JD vance is there. There's certainly
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: certainly no one's going to criticize Trump.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know, whoever irony is that that
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: that if there are a whole bunch of people trying
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: to have ties to Trump, being the one person that
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: runs away from it could in theory do better than
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: you think. But I don't know, we'll.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: See that many.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they'll get I don't know who
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: that is vote. It's sort of like Breddick Propberry. It's
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: the John Kaiseich voter from twenty sixteen. What happened to them? Right? Like?
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Are there enough of them? Like they're Democrats? Now? I
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: think they are too, But there was you know, there
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: also was twenty two percent for NICKI Haley. There's probably
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: you know, Maga Trump. You know, when you look at
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: the overall, it's thirty five percent is always the bare
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: bottom right for any mega policy. So you know, that's
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: about seventy percent of the party, right when it's thirty
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: five percent of the country, probably somewhere between sixteen and
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: seventy percent of the party, which only leaves thirty or
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: forty right, the quote unquote sort of chamber of and
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: that's the one I you know, the one wing of
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: the party not mentioned here is kind of the business wing, right,
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: the Chamber of Conference wing, And I guess that would
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: be Marko Rubio. But Rubio has made it clear he's
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: not going to challenge Vans.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I feel like that that Chamber of Commerce wing,
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, the way the way all of business has
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: behaved this this second the second Trump presidency is I mean,
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: they're they're a lot more willing to bend the knee
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: and a lot less willing to criticize Trump than they
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: were the first time around. And I can't see that
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: changing in the next the next few years.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what subpoena is from a Democratic Congress
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: will make them think after two years of that. I mean,
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: I take your point on that, but I I think
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: they've underestimated the ire that they're going to draw when
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: when Democrats get power back, and they were not going
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: to be able to get to Trump, so they'll subpoena business.
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oversight committee versus getting investigated by DJ or having
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: your merger play.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. None of them want that. Yeah, I hear you,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: But none of them want to be you know, frog
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: marched up on Capitol Hill either, you know. Yeah, talk
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: to Trump for this book?
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: No, No, he did not. I was rich. I was
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: surprised by he did not. He turned down my interview request.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Who in the conservative media world sort of was was
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: sort of the most comfortable talking about this in a
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: detached way, you know, I like, I mean.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: Some people didn't want to talk on the record, so
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: I have to probably be careful about that. I'm just
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: trying to think of who talk on the record. I think,
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: you know, I think the people who were at the
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Standard back when Tucker was there, you know, that original crew, Crystal,
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: David Brooks, those, Andy Ferguson, I think they're you know,
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: I think there's still probably some sort of personal sadness there,
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: but they kind of moved past that and they just
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: sort of are looking at it, you know, almost sort
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: of more just analytically at this point, and you know, anthropologically,
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: and they were they they had some interesting insights and thoughts,
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: but a lot a lot of the people I talked
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: to for the book from conservative media world were you know,
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: didn't didn't want their their names used.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Does he interact with people that disagree with them that
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: much anymore? I don't think so.
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: I think that's I think that's the big change really
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: since you know, he left Washington. Is he used to
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: be kind of I think in the book, I say
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: he's like the invited skunk to the garden party, you.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: Know he was, Oh, I think that's genuinely who he is.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: He wants to debate people. Yeah, Like I actually don't
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: think I mean his interviews were always better than the
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: other conservative interviews because he would challenge a guest every
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: once in a while, right Sean, Annity and Laura Ingram
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: every once in a while Laura will challenge, but like
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Sean never challenges, right, Yeah, ever challenges.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: A guest, you know.
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, you know, and you
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: it's funny Tucker now than most of the people he
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: has on his show now or you know these you know,
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: these are these softball interviews because he grews with them all.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: But then if he has someone who doesn't think when
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: he had Ted Cruz on before the Iran attack, I
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: mean you kind of like you remember, like, man, he's
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: actually a pretty good interviewer.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: He can really need a smart guy. And yeah, all
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: those things on his feet.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, he but I don't think he spends
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: a lot of time talking to people he disagrees with.
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Now he's very much within kind of the Maga bubble.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: And that's you know, and there look they're probably you know,
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: security reasons. I mean, it's you know, I think that
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: just the political climate being what it is, I think
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: it's it's harder probably for him to you know, exist
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: outside that bubble.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: How do you get a sense he is super ambitious?
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Does he care about you know, it's interesting if you're
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Rush Lumbar or Father Coughlan, you know, you're just going
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: to be interesting to historians fifty years later. Beyond that,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: nobody's going to remember who you are. If you're president,
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: you know, you get it paid. I mean, is he
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: does he care so much about who he is that
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: he needs to run for office so that he's remembered.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't get that sense. I think I don't
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: think he's Bill Clinton. I don't think he's someone who
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: has to be president. That said, I think if he
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: concludes that the only way he can, you know, achieve
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: his goals is by becoming president, I don't know what's
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: the goal having. I think the goal is changing the country.
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: I think the goal is making it a place that
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: you know, doesn't look very much like it does today.
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: And I think that that that's ultimately it really is.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: He just wants to go back to a male dominated society,
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: male dominated, white dominated. You know, in some parts of
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: what he wants to go back to I think are
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: not necessarily all the negative. I mean, you know, a
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: society that's you know more about making things and having
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: financial instruments. I mean, they're you know, these are not
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: all bad things or wrong things. I think that's that's
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: kind of his vision. Well, the unraveling of the conservative
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: mind is.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: Do you.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: Do you think you know what the definition of conservatism is?
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of what I.
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: Think it's after doing this. I think it's in I
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: think it's in flux. And I think the point you
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: made about Teddy Roosevelt's a really smart one that you know,
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: there there is a scenario where maybe it doesn't go
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: back to what it was before. And I think, you know,
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: I think the never Trump crowd is, you know, getting
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: themselves if they think it will.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: But it's not gonna be never Trumpers. Yeah.
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, we're not bringing back yeah, yeah, yeah, You're
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: not going to have that Republican Party. It's gonna be
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: something else. Will it be as Trumpian as it is
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: while he's still in charge? I think that's the real question.
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: I think there are I think the people who believe
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: that there is kind of a ideological coherence to trump Ism.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: You know, I think it remains to be seen.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: If I let me ask you, I would you rather
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: be John Thune or Josh Holly for the next decade
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: in Republican politics.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: Josh Holly, without a doubt, I think that. I think
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: that's where the energy is. I think that's where and
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: that's where young people are. I think I think John
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: Thune is a dinosaur. I think I think Josh Holly
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: and his his type are where where the future is.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: So, uh, you've been transitioning. Uh are you going to
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: go back to daily writing?
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Not daily?
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: But you know, I will just write a long magazine
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: articles so it won't be daily. But you know where
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: you hang these days. I'm at the New Yorker, at
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: the New York which is actually where I am right now,
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: little phone booth. Yeah yeah, and so not daily, but
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: you know, definitely more than one thing in six years
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: or five.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: So you've done Times, Post and New Yorker, Is that right?
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: Just the just the New York I was at the
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: New York Times magazine and I just I just left there,
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: uh at the end of the year.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: So I just started at the New Yorker.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: And have you written a piece yet for The New Yorker?
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Not yet.
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: I have a piece on Tucker Carlson in this in
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: this week's issue. It's a it's an excerpt from the
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: book with some new reporting about foes.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Tough for fact checkers. New York Times magazine or New Yorker.
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: Both both very tough, both and you know, uh, I
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: can't imagine doing this stuff without without that that safety net.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: I've never written for the New York I wrote for
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: The Atlantic single hardest fact checking situation I ever went through,
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: which was awesome, and it made me or it was like, God, no,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I nothing like a magazine to do a fact check.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're just they're well, I think they're three
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: places left that do it basically. I think we just
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: named all three and uh, they're it's really country. Yeah,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: but it's so it's so great. I mean there's a
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: reason that those places are what they are, and I
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: think that's it's it's the editing as well. I mean,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: you know, spending the amount of time that they do
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: kind of making sure stuff is right and the arguments work.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: I am all for all of our friends that are
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: doing well on substack and all of that, but there's
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: nothing like collaboration to make a better product.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, having having colleagues, having bosses, having people you can
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: kind of you know, just work with and talk about stuff.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: I think it does make a difference.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: So what do you hope people get out of the book?
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: I you know, I hope I hope it helps people
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: understand kind of how we got to this moment. I'm
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: not you know, it's not all encompassing. There all sorts
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: of factors. But I do think Tucker is like a
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: nice a nice kind of character and vehicle to explain. Oh,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: it's a sort of yeah, we're how we got to
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: hear I mean that's I mean, you know, I think
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: people always sort of say, you know, what the hell
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: are people in our world at least always say like
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: what the hell happened to Tucker? And I think like
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: there is kind of this larger question, you know, which
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: is like what the hell happened to all of us?
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: It's it's not just him, and and I hope that in.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: Reading about him, because you're not just reading about him,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: You're reading about the people who are around him. You're
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: reading about the institutions he worked in. It's you know,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: and people wind up in very different places, you know,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, like him in Crystal sort of like you know,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: their their paths the way they crossed, Like, there's something
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: I think you know sort of interesting about that, and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: something that you know speaks is something bigger than just.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: The elected who's the elected Republican? If you were told
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: you had to use a elected Republican as your vehicle
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: to do this, who would be the best candidate for that?
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: I have a couple of nominees, but I'm sure is
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: where your head would go with this?
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so many of them have. I would have
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: said Ted Cruz until recently actually, just because you know
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: his his sort of transformation. That's a great question. Uh huh,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: can you tell me yours?
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: My two? My two quick ones would be Lindsay Graham
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: and Marco Rubio, right they started his critic.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: Gosh, of course yeah Ruby, Yeah, Rubio even more than Graham.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Rubio probably more than even Lindsay. Like Lindsay is so
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: transactional kind of under Yeah, there's it's not a book,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: that's a penphilet. Yeah, Ruby, rb is interesting. Yeah, Rubio
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: is much more interesting. Yeah.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: And your question earlier about people who you who think
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: they can use Trump, there's that's I mean, because obviously Ruby.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Was We're not done with that story, Marco. That's what
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: I keep warning my Marco friends. Yeah, you know, he's
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: he's he's unlocked the combination with Trump for Venezuela. Maybe
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: he'll get there with Cuba. Yeah, that doesn't mean he's
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: got a you know, he's still the guy that made
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: made fun of his you know what, and that will
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: never be forgotten by the president. At some point he
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: will humiliate Marco one more time. Yeah, that's sort of
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: what you sign up for, I think when when you
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: go work there. But yeah, actually, you know, on jd.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Vance would be a very good uh figure as well.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: I assigned his collect I assign his book to my
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: students to read and to try to understand. What do
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: you want to you want them to get out of it,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: to try to, uh, you know, who's that guy and
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: who's the vice president? Tell me who exactly? Yeah, help
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: explain the two, you know, where do you see similarities?
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: And what what? What are hard to just to you know,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: it's more of of just most of them these days
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: don't know much about abiliology, and they and most of
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: these students, they can't believe what they read. They're like, yeah, wow,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: yeah I like that guy. They all like them. Yeah,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: they love the author jd Vance.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's like is he know law classmates, they
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: all like that guy too, Maybe not so much anymore.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hey Jason, congrats. Like I said, I think you
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: hit a home run with the title. Was it your idea?
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: It's a great title. Hated by all the right people.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, well, I.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: Mean it's you know, it's something that Tucker said. I
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: mean Tucker, it was. It was what Tucker said to
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: Victor Orbond, that was he was he was getting it
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: right and profest and Tucker said, you know, you were
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: truly hated by all the right people. It was sort
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: of the ultimate compliment.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: So it was, it was it is shockingly compared. It's
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: one of these books, man, when you see it in
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: the airport or you see it like you're going to
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: look at it a second time. So I hope you're right, yes, exactly.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Now you're going to do well. You're going to do
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: well with this because people are constantly trying to figure out,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: explain this to me, what the hell happened? I thought
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: I knew this guy. I thought I knew this movement.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: What what are we doing here?
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: And you look, you you don't have a definitive answer
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: because there are no definitive answers, but but you give us,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: you take us on the critical thinking tour that we
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: all need.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: To be on.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: Thanks that's that was definitely the goal.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Having good li life insurance is incredibly important. I know
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: from personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother single mother, now widow. Myself
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: pay for college? And lo and behold, my dad had
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: about Etho's life. They can provide you with peace of
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: mind knowing your family is protected even if the worst
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: comes to pass. Ethos is an online platform that makes
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: getting life insurance fast and easy, all designed to protect
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: your family's future in minutes, not months. There's no complicated process,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: and it's one hundred percent online. There's no medical exam
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: require you just answer a few health questions online, you
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: can get a quote in as little as ten minutes,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: and you can get same day coverage without ever leaving
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: your home. You can get up to three million dollars
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: in coverage, and some policies start as low as two
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: dollars a day that would be billed monthly. As of
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. So protect
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get your free
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: quoted ethos dot com slash chuck. So again, that's Ethos
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: dot com slash chuck. Application times may vary and the
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: rates themselves may vary as well, but trust me, life
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about it, especially
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: if you've got a growing family.