Latest / Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers / Let's Talk About: with author Madeline Taylor about her book Heir of Illusion
Transcript
- Caitlin Stryker: Executive producers and hosts, Caitlin Stryker and Courtney Richter, producers, Canasia Ngo and Hollie Lobosky Original music, Cassie De Silva. Hi. This is a podcast for lovers of romance and romantasy novels who want to go on a deep dive into their favorite genre. Honest discussions and salacious details giving romance books the respect they deserve. We are two friends, actors, moms and romance readers who like a bit of spice and everything nice in their books. Courtney: Oooh Caitlin Stryker: I feel like that was our first clean intro ever. All right ⁓ Welcome back to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers today We are so excited because we have a very special guest with us. We have author Madeline Taylor! She is here to talk to us today about her book Heir of Illusion look Courtney: you Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: You know the drill. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. You know the drill. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. Courtney: Love it! Thanks for tuning in to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. Which, we just talk about how beautiful this book is? And as my son is obsessed with, he's like, does not want me to read it with the, wait, that's backwards, sorry, because he just had the cover off this way. He's like so obsessed with the snake on the cover. Madeline Taylor: I can't this in here. Caitlin Stryker: It's so... ⁓ I love that I haven't even seen that yet. And then like we get like, I love the maps. I love ... just... ⁓ Yeah, this book is so pretty. ⁓ Madeline Taylor: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Hi, I'm Cait Courtney: And I'm Court. Welcome to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. It is so pretty. And she is and she arrives in a pink. So then as well like just the packaging everything about it and now meeting I'm kind of like, ⁓ this is it Madeline or Madeline Madeline like my cousin. Madeline Taylor: Thank you. I think she's gorgeous. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Madeline. Yeah, but when I am being dramatic, I do say Madeline. But obviously I do it like with an accent. I'm like, Madeline. Courtney: Of course. Of course. As we like to say, you don't need spice for a book to be good. Well, you don't need running shoes to run, but they sure do help. Caitlin Stryker: I like that. Courtney: Yes, you have to be British when you're Madeline. Caitlin Stryker: I love that. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ I'm just Madeline. Caitlin Stryker: She's here today. I love it. Madeline Taylor: Yeah Courtney: Mm-hmm coming in hot with Madeline But yes, we're here to talk about your gorgeous book Heir of Illusion which is your book, correct? Your date you what a debut to come into this world with it is so good I mean like unput downable Good. my goodness. I can't wait to dive into it Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: debut, right? Madeline Taylor: Yes, she's my debut, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Wow. Madeline Taylor: Thank you. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yes. Madeline Taylor: Aww, thank you. Caitlin Stryker: this ride. Can I like can't wait but have to wait but can't wait for more you know I'm like but we're ⁓ just in the in the best way it's totally I can't put down cozy wonderful read ⁓ it just like it hits all the markers and then some and you know we read a lot of these books so ⁓ Courtney: Yes. Madeline Taylor: you Courtney: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes, A lot of romantasy. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: That's like saying a lot. Yeah. So just I just love I love when it hits. I love when it manages to feel fresh. And, and, and, you know, just like interesting, you can't put it down, you can't wait to find out like, what's gonna happen? And how are going to solve this? ⁓ Yeah, it just it's a really fabulous book. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: Honestly, the highest compliment I can give to it is like I was in the midst of summer romances because the authors we were having coming on so I was reading all these romances and I was deep into the cozy romances. And I'm like, oh, and I've got Heir of Illusion and sometimes it's hard to swap for me from like romance to romantasy and vice versa. Like Cait can read both at the same time and I can't, I have to be like in a world, in a world. And then, but like, I mean, three pages in, I was just like. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: And I was just in it and good. was like, and I'm here. Like I just ⁓ grabbed you so fast. And it's so digestible to even though you're learning a whole new world and really, because it's the first one, but it ⁓ just wrote it so fantastically that it just pulls you in and then you're just off on the ride like you're gone. And it's every moment of it you're just like there and it's so great, which means we should let you tell everyone what it's actually ⁓ give it away. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Madeline Taylor: Yay! Thank you. Caitlin Stryker: Yes, please. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, yeah, so It is about an assassin who is chained to a ruthless king through a collar around her neck that forces her to do his bidding. Enter our mysterious Shadow Daddy Reaper who just so happens to be hunting the exact same weapon that she needs to remove her collar, but only one of them can have it. So what's gonna happen? I have no idea. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Right? Courtney: You're still sorting it out. Caitlin Stryker: And then... You're like, it's still coming to me. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. What's gonna happen? Hope it's me, not me. Courtney: It must be fun for you. I am assuming you read a lot of romantasies as ⁓ But now you get to have your own shadow daddy be like, what is he going to ⁓ Thorne? Yes, Thorne is ⁓ I mean, he's literally a god of death. Well, first, he's just a reaper. And then we find out he's god of death. And then we find out a little more. ⁓ ⁓ it's like, it's the literally like Madeline Taylor: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Guys, he's such a good shadow daddy. He's so hot. He's so hot. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ no, ⁓ my god. Thank you! Yeah! Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney: touch her and die and literally his touch could kill her for most of the book. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Well, kills like anyone, so he wears gloves everywhere. He can't touch anybody. Courtney: Everyone. Yes. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah, he like is so separated from like other people. He can't touch anyone. can't get close to anyone. And I'm like, stay. I love that. Stay isolated, okay? Caitlin Stryker: Which, yeah, right? But then ⁓ when we discover this, I'm like, well, wait, how are we gonna get the spice? I'm like, hang on a minute. I didn't have this moment, was like, uh-oh, red flag. Courtney: I love it. Right? you Madeline Taylor: I know! ⁓ Yeah, I like I've read ⁓ books that I love where the female protagonist can't touch other people. And I think that's great and loved those books, but I really wanted to explore something where like you know, our MMC was the who ⁓ is to, ⁓ yeah. Caitlin Stryker: And Ray was like, ooh, I think I know. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, definitely. Courtney: It's always, I mean, it stems, it's again a twist on it, because it does have similar feelings to me of the Gilded Cage series, which is obviously the reverse when she can't touch him until it turns gold. It's called, it's Kennedy Ryan. Thank you. I was like, I know it's not called Gilded Cage, I just can't remember the series title, but I just think of Gilded. Madeline Taylor: I, yeah. Which one is that? Oh, oh yeah, the Play the Prisoner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're kidding. No, I love that series too. I love that series. ⁓ no, no. I'm a big fan. Okay, but I've only read the first three books because that was what was out when I was reading it. So I feel like once I'm like with like all my deadline stuff, I'm going to go back and reread those three so I can finish the series. Courtney: I so, I'm like, you have to have read this series. Yes. Yes. Yes, you definitely need to read it. He's also like one of the top book boyfriends and in Shadow Daddies and after reading yours like and Cait has Cait hasn't even dove into these yet. I've been saving them for when we get there. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ Madeline Taylor: ⁓ I love him. I love him. Caitlin Stryker: Right. So Madeline, you might not know this about us, this is our thing as well. A, always have read the book that we're talking about. B, we only talk about books we love. And C, ⁓ am new to the game of romance and romantasy reader and Court is our expert romance and romantasy reader. So there are there are some I just read Fourth Wing like I ⁓ yeah. Now, ⁓ Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Okay. ⁓ okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Courtney: She's late to the game. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: I am obviously deeply obsessed with all of it and it has become my lifestyle. you know, when I find something I love, I go in hard. ⁓ I'm like, I love this party, let's go! Yeah, which is the best. ⁓ And I have heard of the book that you guys are talking about and I cannot wait to get to that one. But Court just like keeps shoving like new books. There's so many. Courtney: Like all of us. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. never ends. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: because there's so many and it's like it's hard to keep up. Courtney: It's so hard. Yes. Yes. And you know, I have deadlines in life and things you're doing. It's really hard. It gets us to that place. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, I know. It's like, feel like I used to be so on it, like before, ⁓ like before my book came out, I was like so deep in it. I was like, yeah, I'm so caught up. Like ⁓ I had everything like marked in my calendar, like release dates, like, and then once like I was doing it, you know, as my job. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ nice, yes. Madeline Taylor: Then I was like, Oh My God, I've looked at words all day long. I can't look at any more words. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: Yeah, that's fair. It becomes it. Well, I mean, it's even like for us acting and then you watch those and it just changes the lens because you're you're on the inside now until you watch things differently. And even for us reading like we only talk about things we love but we still get a lot of books that we need to read and even before that like not even necessarily ones on here. So you can get to those moments like Madeline Taylor: Yes, yes. Caitlin Stryker: you Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Courtney: Okay, I gotta read this by this day and going that takes some of the joy of like and read and I even find between like ones that we're talking about and then ones that I just want to read because I've heard about them and they're on my list. It's like, how do we read it all just get into my brain and I work in a bookstore too. So I'm just surrounded all the time. And just like Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yup. Yup. Madeline Taylor: Yes, yes. Caitlin Stryker: I mean, it is the best. are like delicious problems. These are the, we love them. Yes, yes. it's very, I do feel like Rory Gilmore, like, how do we reach them? Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. All right. I'm champagne problems for sure. Yeah. Um, but are you, were you an actress? Are you an actress? Is that what you were saying? Yeah. You're both actresses. Okay. I, I lived in LA for the longest. Like I was in the business too. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely feel you watching TV is like different when you're doing it from that perspective. And then also when you see someone you know, come on the screen and you're like, Courtney: million percent. Yes. Yes, we are both actors. Yes. Amazing! Caitlin Stryker: Amazing do you know? Yes Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: It is. Courtney: Yeah. Yes, yes, 100%. Yes. Madeline Taylor: I'm out of this now. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes. Totally. Madeline Taylor: Please! I know you too well to believe what you're doing! Caitlin Stryker: Right? Amazing. That's so amazing. So you use you do you still do acting or you're like, no, I am writing now. That is my thing. Yeah, fair. Fair. Yeah, dude. Heard. It's a rough game. Madeline Taylor: I'm done. Done. Never going back. Yeah, yeah. That was like my like whole life. It was like all I wanted to do. And I was like writing on the side, but I never thought of writing as like something I would do professionally. But then during COVID, I was like... Courtney: Yeah, right. That's fair. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: I don't know, COVID happened and like I lost my job at the restaurant, like, you know, all as actors. And then I had to, I was like, you know what, I'm done. It kind of felt like this like permission to like leave something that didn't make me happy anymore, but that I was like really holding onto because it had made me happy for a long time. ⁓ And then I left and I moved home ⁓ and I like moved back into my childhood bedroom. Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Right. Courtney: Yes! Yeah! Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Wow, where's home? ⁓ Wow, that's a big change to get back into Arkansas. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Arkansas. Yeah, so I moved back here and I wrote this book, like from my bed in my childhood room, like, because I didn't have a desk. So I was just sitting on my bed typing. Yeah, I don't know. Caitlin Stryker: Amazing. Yeah. Courtney: Amazing. Caitlin Stryker: Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: ⁓ huh, of course. Yeah. I love that. It's clearly what you were meant to do. Caitlin Stryker: I'm so glad you did. I'm so grateful, honestly, because this book is fabulous. And I'm so grateful that you made this switch and now we get to have this fabulous book. It's book one of a series. How many how many do you have planned? Madeline Taylor: What's this? Thank you. ⁓ Courtney: Yes. Madeline Taylor: So there will be three books in this series. Courtney: Okay. Caitlin Stryker: I love a three book series. I really do. It's like, you know, two to three. I'm just like, let's, let's get there. Let's have an end. Let's know what we're going to. Yeah. Yeah. And then let's go to a new world that you have for us. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, let's get there, let's wrap it up and let's get out. Yeah. Exactly. Because I don't like when, you know, I like want to solve these problems. ⁓ And I don't like when it's like, constantly, constantly, constantly more problems. Like, and I'm like, damn, at some point, like, do I even want these people to be happy? Courtney: I think, yeah. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. I feel the same when it goes on for too long. Courtney: ⁓ So you've read Zodiac Academy basically is what you're saying. Yeah Listen I love it. I do love it, but it should be about Four to five books the first series the fae one should be three books like it all could be shorter like you get you run out of steam You're like, my god, I can't start another issue like just I'm done Madeline Taylor: I actually haven't, but I have heard that, yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Madeline Taylor: I like want to, I want to get into them, but ⁓ I, it's yeah, it's a commitment. So I'm like, I need time. Because I have heard, and I've seen Lance fan art and I'm like, I do, I do feel as though that, that could be my man. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yes, it's a commitment. It's a commitment. Yes, you do. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: ⁓ Lance. ⁓ the men, listen, the main male characters of those books are nothing to sneeze at. They are all the women, the men. The one thing they do is create hot, hot characters and the most steam, the most, those books will get you in the mood. Those books are like another level of that world. But yes, they take time. Yes. Madeline Taylor: I- that's- yeah, that's like what I'm- yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Okay, but I've, ⁓ yeah, well I have heard that, but we have to get back to this one because honestly, like you're saying hot and I'm like, Thorne is ridiculous. And he has wings. I gotta like, and then your description of how his wings felt, like the softness, like the way you described that, I actually felt them, you know? Like I was like, ooh, I know that. Madeline Taylor: Thank Courtney: Gosh. Right. Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ yeah Caitlin Stryker: like you feel like you're feeling something that you shouldn't be feeling like it's that soft. ⁓ And then ⁓ Iverson, a great name, Ivy for short, Iverson, long version, amazing. And then when she's described and it's like, ⁓ she's like breathtakingly gorgeous assassin woman. Like it's awesome. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ huh. Yes. Courtney: Yes. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ thank you. Yeah. Courtney: Gorgeous. Ethereal. Total queen. Yes. Madeline Taylor: gorgeous yeah That's that's my baddie over there I love her. Courtney: Yeah! Caitlin Stryker: Love her and her I loved the way like her inner turmoil and her pull and her it was so it really for me perfectly walked that line of like, yes, I believe her inner turmoil and I also believe that she's actually working through it and fighting it. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: you know, not wallowing in it or staying in it for so long where you're kind of like, okay, come on already, you know. And then there were like these realizations and these twists that come late in the book and it was like, wow, you know, like it explained so much but like, the and the collar, like this, let's talk about this collar, where did you get the idea that it would be a around her neck that was controlling her? Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Honestly, I'm like, I don't even remember how that came to me. Like I think at first ⁓ just knew I wanted something like here, something very well, you can't hide it. ⁓ And I just started thinking about, you know, a collar, but I knew that I wanted it to look ⁓ not an actual dog collar. ⁓ Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Right? Yes, we should, we should be It's more like a gorgeous necklace. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: I wanted it to be beautiful. It is, it is. And so it's like, I always love the idea that like the devil is beautiful. know, the thing that's evil is also gorgeous and it's very tempting. And so it's this very stunning, like ornate, intricate design, this gorgeous jewelry, but it is evil. Courtney: Like a choker. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: And it's instead of being this like symbol of like, wealth or status or beauty, it's, you know, it's a collar, it's being trapped. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yes, yes, I love that. Courtney: Yeah, I did. I love that in his power through it like that was because look the world she got what she's in like her how she's trapped with this king and that he does get to control her body and what she does so because if he touches basically if he touches the collar, she has to follow any command that he says and he's very good at finding loopholes within them but like she is bound by this collar and it is dark like he found- that he groomed her Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: made her also his like sexual concubine as well as his And it has that like feeling so many female main characters have you know, with Throne of Glass and this one again like that darkness but you did it in a way that it doesn't pull you under like you know, there's that line where like you can read about the females going through this and it can almost be like too heavy on the heart to like enjoy the ride and but you didn't Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, we'll Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: you. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: You didn't, managed to convey the difficulty of her situation and what she was going through while balancing it the romantasy and like adventure storyline very, very well. So that in a beautiful way. Madeline Taylor: Thank you. Caitlin Stryker: Very well, I agree. Right up, yeah, right up that line where you're getting like maybe a little too uncomfortable, like a little uncomfortable and then it's like, okay, but not so far where it's like... Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah, I knew that I wanted to get us close to the line, but I never wanted to cross over it because I don't like, I don't like when things like that feel gratuitous or like they're done for shock value. I think that we, you know, we can all infer what is happening. We don't need to see it on the page. ⁓ And like, I, okay, I had written this short story ages ago, like during like a writing class and ⁓ Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: It had like some similar themes, not the same thing, but like dealing with similar subjects. And we were doing like peer review in our class. And one of the men in my class told me like, when you're dealing with these topics, you always need to hit it hard, like never be vague. And I was thinking to myself like, no, no, whenever I've known anyone, you know, when you observe anything in real life, like in this nature, like the way we talk about it, it's so like, Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: You allude to something. You don't want to like put the name on it. You don't want to put the words on it. It's hard to do that. So I think, I don't know. think it's just, to me it felt better to just not say exactly. Yeah. Yeah, we don't need to hit hard. We all know. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Well, you wrote it through the female gaze because the truth is we don't need it hit hard. We all we intuitively know exactly what they feel and what they're going through. And that's the perfect example of why the male gaze is incorrect on writing female stories, because they don't understand that part. We get it and we don't that we actually can't handle it when it's hard and forced on us is too traumatic. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. We all know. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Exactly! I'm like, I don't want it to be in my face. Like, I know that it happens. I know that it's happening. don't... I don't need to see it. Like, why would I need to see that? ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. No. Courtney: No! God no! Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: No. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think because the male point of view and the male gaze dominates so much of media and literature and our culture, it's thrown in our face all the time. And on top of that, the majority of us have lived Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Mm-hmm. through something. Yes. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: some version of it, right? And we don't want to look at it because we don't want to, we are dealing with it, we have dealt with it, we have, you know what I mean? Like it's our way, we get to work through it our own way, it's everybody's individual thing, but it's only re-traumatizing to have to actually like walk through it step by step in front of everybody else over and over again. know, like there's nothing healing about that. Madeline Taylor: You don't want to talk about it, no? Courtney: No! Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yes! Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ And think, you know, ⁓ I know for myself, I love these books. I love these romantasy books, I love romance books because I find it all very healing and very empowering, you know, ⁓ they are off, like they are Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: written through the female gaze and the female main character is really the center of it. It isn't about the male point of view. And that just is like, it's like the one kind of corner and genre where that's the majority and it's so refreshing and it feels so safe, which is really nice. so here's what I also think is interesting. I think there's two things going on with Iverson. One, she has a collar at her neck, right? And this is like the throat shocker, like your voice and like being able to like speak for yourself and have agency. So that's being cut off, which is cut off for like women in general, I would say that we are, you know, up until now and still things aren't haven't changed that much raised, you know, to like silence ourselves. ⁓ And the other thing that she has as the wraith is she can go invisible. And that's another thing is, you know, women are raised to like, blend into the background and be invisible. And there's so many women you ask, like, what Madeline Taylor: Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: would your superpower be in like, ⁓ invisibility. And you know, like that's like the comfort zone is like not being seen. it's like, these are things we need to break through, you know? We need to be able to use our voices. We need to take up more space. We need to be seen more. And I just think it's really cool that you work with those two in your female main character in this book. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yes, yes. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Thank you. Yeah, I wanted the invisibility. I love the idea that she like, you know, isn't always seen and that she can sort of like go through the world without being part of it. ⁓ And just, it's kind of a way to erase yourself sort of. ⁓ Yeah, sorry. Also, if you can hear my dog, she's having a moment. Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney: Done. She can. Have her moments. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: No problem. Yes. Yes. Madeline Taylor: It's her right. But yeah, I feel like the invisibility, that came to me pretty early on. I kind of knew that I wanted that to be her power. then I, like, as I was working through everything is when I found the eidolon. Yeah, I always Courtney: I was gonna ask about that, where that came from, it's Rose. Caitlin Stryker: Love that. Can you tell me what the eidolon is? Madeline Taylor: yes. Okay. So the eidolon is like Ivy can create this carbon copy of herself. So it's, ⁓ you can touch it, you can feel it, it can speak, ⁓ but it is just sort of like a shell. It's a shell of her kind of, you know, it relies on her instincts. It's not Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: a real person. And I think it kind of symbolizes what she, you know, all the performances she's putting on and kind of what she thinks she's supposed to be is this like, just this sort of vessel for whatever anybody else is wanting from her and what she needs to be for them. And I, so, okay, I grew up watching Charmed. If you liked Charmed. Yes. So, Prue. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, you do. Caitlin Stryker: I loved watching that show. Yes. Yes. Okay. Madeline Taylor: Prue is my girl. ⁓ my god, Eleanor stop. I think there's someone out front and she's barking at them. Okay good, good, okay good. But yeah, so Prue, ⁓ yeah. my god, well her name is Eleanor Rose. The eidolon is named after her. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Hahaha Caitlin Stryker: you Courtney: ⁓ Gosh we can't I can't hear it. It's totally yeah Caitlin Stryker: No, it's fine. Courtney: I love her name's Eleanor, by the way. That is amazing. What? I love that so much. Of course. ⁓ that is so fantastic. oh my gosh. Caitlin Stryker: YEEEE Madeline Taylor: Well, I had to, I already put my baby in here. Caitlin Stryker: you Madeline Taylor: ⁓ yeah, like, Prue and Charm, can, like, astral project, and it's like sending a version of herself out, and for her, that version of herself is like freedom from the constraints of her real life. So it's not quite the same as with Ivy, but... ⁓ Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yes! Courtney: Mm-hmm. Yes, Ivy's is like a physical version. People touch her and they can't tell. Like we know it's a shadow version of herself, but people think it's her fully. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Right. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yes. that, you know, the eidolon for me served a purpose of one, it played into like Ivy's own feelings about herself, but it also served as a way to avoid going to the darker places, crossing that line because, you know, I didn't want her to still be, after she figures out the truth about Baylor, I did not want her to have to be Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: putting on a show in that regard, like going to his room. So the eidolon was a way around that. And that's how it started for Ivy. Like, you know, the first time she gets called to his room after she learns the truth, that's when the eidolon appears for the first time. And it's sort of like in that moment feels like she's sort of breaking in half. ⁓ And so the eidolon is how we get around her having to continue being in... Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Be with the king. So to make it clear for everyone, so up until this point when the queen, the king has a wife and he's groomed our female main character Ivy to be his like, for lack of a better term... Oh my gosh, I'm forgetting the word now. It's not a whore. Mistress, thank you. Oh my gosh. I like totally forgot. I'm like, I'm to call her a whore. That's not what I mean. Cause she's not at all, but I couldn't think of a word. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Mrs. Yes? Caitlin Stryker: Mistress. Ha! Madeline Taylor: I'm gonna have to use this. Courtney: No, it was like it's like because all I could think about in that moment was Thorne getting so angry from other people calling her a whore I'm stuck in my head and I'm like no that's not what it is The opposite but basically she's his mistress. Caitlin Stryker: I can't say that. That's not it. Madeline Taylor: You like- Good one. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yes. Madeline Taylor: yeah yeah yeah Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Courtney: that he grew up from a child. But she fully had like, I'm gonna stop coming up with the correct terms, but that syndrome of like, because she was groomed, she was all in and like, loved the attention she got, because her father was horrible and gave her nothing. She loved the attention the King Baylor gave her and that affection. And so she was all in for it. And then he killed his wife. And that's when it flipped for her because she loved his wife as well because and Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Hmm. Yes. Yes. Courtney: That was the moment when the eidolon came out of her. But what I love is the cost it still takes out of Ivy. When her eidolon goes, and that's kind of what you're saying, basically when the king would call her to his bedchamber, from that point on, it was her eidolon would go. So she didn't have to feel his hands on her more when she was no longer into it. Before that, she was into it because she was groomed that way. But it still physically costs her every time. Like she gets a nosebleed and it strains. It's like she still feels it. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah, it's painful. It's because you're That feeling that you're like ripping yourself ⁓ Yeah. And, you know, she can kind of block out what's happening to the eidolon, but it's like she has this sense of guilt and in her mind she like separates, you know, she thinks like it's like almost like a machine. Like it's not real. It's not connected to her. It's not part of her. Like this isn't happening to ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ And I think through Thorne and Thorne's interpretation of the eidolon, she starts to, you know, even just when he asks, like, does it have a name? ⁓ And it's just sort of this moment where she's like, why would I give it a name? Like, why would I? It's a person because she sees herself also as a thing, not a person, because she's a pet. And so, you know, she's kind of starts to see that Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yeah, because he doesn't understand yet. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: she's internalized everybody's like vision of her and she's put that into the eidolon. And yeah, it's sad. yeah, no, nobody notices except ⁓ loved, I wanted Thorne to be the only person who sees through it and he sees through it immediately. Immediately he's like, they're saying it like, yeah, cause they're like, the eyes are like dead. ⁓ Courtney: Yeah. And he can't, he doesn't notice, of course. The King doesn't notice the vacancy in her expression. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Not that, yeah. Courtney: Yes, the first meeting he can tell. Caitlin Stryker: He can tell, he sees in the eyes that there's nothing there. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: So, yeah, I... Courtney: ⁓ I loved it as a reader and made me feel safe and protected when that came because I was like there's the nervousness of like no how's she gonna handle this he's calling her to bed like what is this gonna be and it felt so like I was so thankful that she had that Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Madeline Taylor: I know, I know. Yes, because I didn't, I just didn't want to cross that line. Like I didn't want to like have to take it. I like contemplated a lot. was like, even, even this is this too far? Like, ⁓ like I had my sister read it and I was like, what do you think? Like, do you think it's too far? Courtney: I agree. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah! Courtney: I know because as soon as you made her Rose it stopped like you you thread that very well. ⁓ I think you did it beautifully. It's and it's so much fun of it. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: It changed. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. And she couldn't like, for the first time ever, she says no, like she says, not like I'm not going, the eidolon's not going, you know, tell him I don't feel well. Yeah. Courtney: Yeah, I'm sick. I'm sick from the wine. I'd love that after Thorne took off. But yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yeah, gonna say I ⁓ jump into some other things here too. So I'm gonna say definitely from here on out, there's gonna be spoilers. So I think, know, because, so here we go. One, two, three. All right, you had your chance to go. Because then I think it's really great that the eidolon at the end, ⁓ now named, right? Eleanor Rose, like now is named and all this. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Courtney: Spoilers are on. Yes. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Well, just Rose but for my animal, Rose. Yeah. Courtney: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Rose, yeah, right. I'm like, the pun. But Rose. ⁓ ⁓ the eidolon stabs Baylor in the eye. You know? ⁓ And yes. Madeline Taylor: Yes. I wanted her to have her moment of revenge too, because that is a part of Ivy. That is a part of her. And like, that is a part of her that has been put into a situation. And I wanted her to get, her moment. Courtney: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah! Caitlin Stryker: Yes, and I love that. it really, like, know, just reading the book and just just going on this ride and enjoying it. And then, you know, after now, we're talking about it's like, my gosh, right. And it was once once the eidolon had agency as well through a name, right? Once Ivy basically said, Yes, this is an actual part of me. This is a part of me. It is my power. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: and I'm not giving it away to you anymore, you know? And then it was like, and that was so good. So good. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, thank you. I feel like Ivy has a lot of realizations throughout the book. ⁓ And she's not a perfect person, you know, and she has like things she tries to shut down and she doesn't want to feel. But I think over the course of this book, she's kind of realizing that, you know, she tells herself she wants out of this situation. But deep down, there's a part of her that believes she deserves it, she sees it as a punishment. ⁓ She wants to, I guess, earn her atonement by staying here and letting this all continue, ⁓ which I think is really relatable. Because when you're a kid, I don't know, you're taught, like, when I was a kid, I always, if I did something wrong, I wanted to be punished because I saw the punishment as a way of, once I'm punished, then we can move forward. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yes, it is. Courtney: atoning. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Madeline Taylor: like that is Then it's erased. Like that was like my childlike understanding of how you move forward. And so I wanted Ivy to like have a little bit of that. Like in the back of her mind, she still believes that, like, that she did something wrong and now she has to pay for it. Courtney: Right. Caitlin Stryker: Great. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think too, you know, when like, when you look at her history, like with her with her father, and then being taken by Baylor and being trapped by Baylor at a young age and then in all of it, like she's kind of the way that the story goes in her head, she's been told by other adults in her life who were supposed to protect her, you know, that she was not worthy, that she was bad, that this would keep her safe, like all of these things. I mean, that's a lot to unpack, you know, that's a lot to Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yeah Caitlin Stryker: work through, which was really great to get to work, you know, through the book, how she's working through these things. ⁓ And the strength that she has in spite of it, which is really amazing, too, you know, from the beginning, like the way that she Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Right. Yes. Courtney: Well, even her relationship with her brother like that little sweet touch point you gave us that I wish I want to see more of and explore more because it's but it gives you so many questions like how can he love her so much and be threatening the dad but then not be there for like and so many people are ⁓ to the king in the way that these worlds work with fates and gods and I feel like there's still so much to explore that we don't know yet about these realms and how they're all working. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: But that little touchstone of like that connection and how much that clearly like meant to her. And then the next person kind of being Thorne that she has it with and even Griffen a little bit like that familiar relationship. It's you see how it brings her back into herself, like probably her only time as a child that she felt those feelings was from her brother giving that to her and then getting that kind of back from them is how she finds her strength again. And I guess there's part of the only part I get angry with Thorne like in that little bit when the king is announced the bride and then he takes off and then comes back and he doesn't like it takes him so long to connect the collar like she really has to spell it out for him which is fair enough because he's seen everything but I'm also like dude like put it like what do you think like come on clearly something's happening like she doesn't just want to be queen like come on man Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. together Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah! Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, no, I think for him it's such like, I think like it's such a reminder too of the situation he grew up in, because he came from this situation where he and his mother were kept somewhere and she was given this sort of like potion that made her believe she was happy to be there. It sort of stripped her of her real feelings and made her believe like, I'm happy here, I wanna be here. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yes. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ the only one then who's remembering the truth, like, ⁓ it for what it is. yeah, ⁓ I think for him, it's sort of re-traumatizing because he's like, oh shit ⁓ working on it. Like, damn. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Yeah, another one that's just like Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but that was and that was so great too. Actually, you know why that was of the things where I was like, ⁓ this girl knows her gods. I it because I just I do like I love when in a story it is like really clear of like that, there's something about the gods and like the way they're described like in Greek mythology and stuff or even in even in you know Christianity like there's like a there's a an intensity that is not Courtney: No. Caitlin Stryker: nice, you know? Like, or like kind per se. It's sort of like this weird like so much power that it's indifferent in a way that like we aren't as humans, you know? Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yes. mm-hmm. Yes, I fully stand by that absolute power corrupts absolutely. And that once you become, you know, that level of power, they're naturally just, for some reason, becomes this sort of indifference to other people and this sort of like, like, if you could have anything, then none of it makes you happy anymore because you don't have to work for it, I guess, or... Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: you know, there's no risk involved, I don't know why, but like, you see it a lot with like, really, really wealthy people who have, like, they just develop these very strange interests, ⁓ where they hurt other people. And yeah, so I think the gods are very similar to that. And I, ⁓ I do, I have read a lot of Greek mythology. And yeah, Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, I could tell. could tell. was like, she, this is good. Yes. Yes. Madeline Taylor: Like Zeus is a menace. Like Zeus is like actually like a criminal like lock him up oh my god like I every time I ever read like a greek mythology thing I'm like Jesus again like again ⁓ Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Right? Right? Courtney: ⁓ It got like I've never I've had to go this sounds weird But I played in plays in theater school two different Greek mythology stories like at the amount of times I was raped in both of these plays and just like holy fuck like they just It's exhausting like they just do whatever they want. There's no repercussions ever It's just insane Madeline Taylor: Yeah. ⁓ huh. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: And it's just like, okay, okay. Like again? Yeah, and there's no reprimissions. And then like, it genuinely feels like they treat people like pets, like these little things that they can do whatever they want to, that they don't matter. And I, so I love the story of Medusa. I love Medusa. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I thought this had a very Medusa feel to it. Yes Caitlin Stryker: Hmm... Yeah... Madeline Taylor: ⁓ team Medusa, team Medusa, that's my girl actually. ⁓ my God, I love that. She you know, she's one of those people or characters like who I always was just like, and you know what? If she's hurting people, like I'm going to turn a blind eye to that. Cause like, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Totally Team Medusa. I was Medusa for Halloween last year. I was like, ⁓ yeah, yeah. Courtney: Love it. Yes. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, she's allowed. Courtney: She's allowed to. Let her go. Madeline Taylor: It's definitely one of those like, she's in her reputation era, like, ⁓ but, but I kind of, ⁓ I took the idea of her into Thorne a lot because what was done to her created this barrier between her and the world, you know, you either like what, you know, her like physical body was sort of twisted into this thing that's now monstrous. And with Courtney: Yep. She's fully living that. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes! Yeah. Madeline Taylor: And without like with that happening, now she's like, you can either isolate yourself and be around no one, or you can be around other people and be their monster. And so for Thorne it's like his body did sort of like twist on itself and become like this like weapon and, you know, he has to stay away from people or if he gets close to them, he kills them. ⁓ So yeah, I played with that. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: I love that. I love that so much. And it does kill them except Ivy. Ivy is the first person he realizes accidentally he can touch. And he can kiss and go ⁓ my god when he finally gets to kiss her like despite the world on fire around them and they finally get to kiss like ⁓ and I in my head I'm like how many years has he ever kissed anyone he's never kissed it like I just went there I'm like ⁓ my god the relief that this must feel and I want to Caitlin Stryker: is Madeline Taylor: Except for Ivy. Yeah, he can touch her. Caitlin Stryker: They can touch. Madeline Taylor: Anything? Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: Obviously, I don't know because things end on a rough note between the two of them, but I Is there with any other characters some more spice coming in the future books of these series? Because it takes a long to get to the slow burn of this we are left with more of like a lot of sensual feelings. We get we get we get a bit, but I but we could take more obviously Madeline Taylor: Yeah Caitlin Stryker: Hahaha! ⁓ bit... we get that really good bit. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you're definitely, so you're definitely gonna get more and you're gonna get more in Book Two, yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: We could take so much tomorrow. Courtney: Yeah. ⁓ I can't wait. Yes. I mean, it made sense in this book. Yes, like this made sense. There shouldn't be more. was perfectly done in terms of a slow burn and what we got. But I've just, you know. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ good, ⁓ good, we're ready for it. Because what we got between the two of them already, yes. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, I know, ⁓ when I was like ⁓ going into my meetings with, ⁓ sorry, this hair is like getting in my face. This one is like, what is it doing? These damn, I swear, fucking curls. It's my snake. I'm Medusa now. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Get it out. Until I get it. It's living its own life. It's your snake. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: doing something. Right? Madeline Taylor: like going into my meetings with different publishing houses, like when I was looking at like going from indie published to traditional, sort of if there's, so the process works is like if there's more than one house interested in the book, then you do these meetings and then the book goes to auction and they all kind of offer their bid and you just accept based on who you like the best and you know who has the best offer and whatever. So in these meetings like there were a few Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney: something. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: places that I met with who like wanted me to add in a little more spice to Book One, and they wanted like, you know the scene where ⁓ after Ivy kills Kaldar and she comes back and she finds Thorne in her room and they like spend the night together in her bed for the first time and like, I think it's such an intimate, like ⁓ of these two like. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'd love that scene, yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: these two very broken people who are being incredibly vulnerable with each other right now. And I didn't think it needed to go to a sexual place. Like I think for both of them, it needed to be like just feeling close to another human being. Like, ⁓ so there were some places that wanted me to like make that moment sexual. And ⁓ I just didn't want to, like I didn't want to. I didn't think it fit the... Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yes. Yes. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: I'm glad that you stuck to your guns on that. Yeah Madeline Taylor: Yeah, so I ended up the place I went with Zando they they told me like basically like no there's nothing we really want you to change Courtney: You're like, you are my people. Thank you. I agree. That's no, but I think, think that's a good always listen to gut of yours because I think again, the balance between that and the sexual nature with King Baylor and what was being forced, like you needed that balance of the vulnerability and connection without it having to be sexual because of the sexual stuff that was happening. So I think that I'm glad that you stuck to your guns as Caitlin said, that's the right way ⁓ have those moments. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. ⁓ Madeline Taylor: Yeah, so I was like, I was like, why do I say that? Yeah. Yeah. Hmm Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yeah, it really. Madeline Taylor: Thank you. Caitlin Stryker: And listen, and I usually I'm like, let's get more spice. Let's get it. Let's get in there faster like the whole thing. But like, no, like with everything that was going on in this book, it was the perfect. It was really like all like threaded like right the way it needed to be. And I was I liked that scene between the two of them because I like, this is the like intimacy that they need. There's like this whole, you know, it's a romantasy. There's this whole like ⁓ quest going and all these things. And she's going through much and he's been through so much and the what it Madeline Taylor: Let's get more! Courtney: Yeah, yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah! Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: was that they had both been through was like no they just like you said like they just need to be able to like the real intimacy of just being with a person not having them like meet more than that and they already had had like a pretty sassy moment like in the alleyway Madeline Taylor: just being with them, yeah. And like, you know, she has like, exactly, you know, so like, moment they realize, like the moment they realize they can touch each other, that's that like, that like, the tension reached its peak, like, oh, we've got to, you know, drive it like you stole it, take it while you can, you know, could change, this could be taken at any moment, like. So that was like, out of our mind. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yes! Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: like we're going for it moment and then this is kind of the first time they're really like alone after that and it's it's just a lot more intimate and it's a lot more like I love that he's you know he's tending to her wound and like he asks like you know he can take his gloves off while he does it and like he like leans like after he's like patched her up he just like leans in and like kisses her hip really gently and it's not sexual it's just like this very like Courtney: Yes. Yes, I loved that. I have to the poison out. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: tender, like I'm caring for you. Yeah, because I always wanted to like be clear that it's like, you know, there is lust, but there's also love ⁓ and like, adoration. ⁓ Like these are two people who actually genuinely very much enjoy each other. ⁓ So yeah, and just, you know, the vulnerability of like, you know, Courtney: Mm-hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: getting undressed but not in a sexual way, know, like getting undressed to go to... like it's... I don't know, I thought it was really tender and really sweet. Courtney: Guess. she felt that ⁓ because throughout the book she's been very body confident and like had no problem he saw her nude very early on like there's she has no problem flaunting. She's got a gorgeous body as it but then the feelings were there the green light that vulnerability I agree like it made it a really special moment without needing all the other stuff like it just it was very tender and yeah yeah and exactly how it feels you can be the most confident person ever but then when it's someone you actually like Madeline Taylor: Yeah, Exactly. And like he's... Yeah. When it matters, like, yeah, feels bigger, feels different. And like, he's got scars on his back that people don't ever see. like, ⁓ think even just, you know, taking off the gloves and like, asking if it's okay, like, ⁓ it's so sweet. That's one of my favorite, like, chapters. Yeah. Courtney: Yes, totally different. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: It is. I love it. Caitlin Stryker: So sweet. then, And that just gets to the okay, then we like, you know, we're getting to the end of the book and this, this moment like realizing what when we realized why he can touch her. And I was like, my God, I did not see it coming. That like, she's dead. She's died multiple times. But has a tether. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney: Yes. That she's dead. Well, that she's- no, but that she's the heir of- of the god of death. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: has a tether so she's the heir of the God of Death. did, I thought she was the Heir of Illusion, right? And I was like, okay, I've got this figured out. And then when it twisted that way and I was like, ⁓ what? So aside, ⁓ my God. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Courtney: Yes. Yes. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ thank you. Thank you. I knew from the beginning that I wanted to do that. Because I really love ⁓ moments in stories that change everything and redefine everything. And you're forced to look back and rewrite your perception of these different moments and scenes. I love that. And I wanted to do something like that. And so I had to find what is the most interesting way to get to this place? Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: How do you trick people? Like, how are you? Oh, thank you. mean, even the title itself is like, it's a gag. And I love that Ivy is like this unreliable narrator. You know, because there's, I think there's like moments and I have them all the time when I'm watching a show where I'm reading a book and there's a moment where I go, that was weird, but like, okay. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ you tricked me so hard. ⁓ And I like to think I can always figure it out. Yes! Yeah. Courtney: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: you know, we move on quickly and it's like, ⁓ okay, I guess I just interpreted something wrong. And so I wanted that to be like when Ivy kills Kaldar and they're going through the veil. And then she comes back and says, like, I twisted it the last moment I went over the side. And it is, yes. So you're like, huh? And so that's like the first, like, ⁓ yeah, that's one of the first hints that something, cause for childhood, yes, like, Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes, that's what you did to me. I was like, did I? And I kept going. Yeah. No, she went home. Courtney: and her childhood story of it. Madeline Taylor: when she's crawling out of her own grave and it's just like, they must have, like, you know, they thought she drowned, like, ⁓ you know, maybe he just wanted to believe she was drowned and like buried her, like get it done with. ⁓ Yeah, I love an unreliable narrator and I love when like the truth is revealed and like even like the narrator themselves like doesn't want to see it. And she's such a skilled liar. And so it's like, Courtney: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, she said the pulse, like they missed it. Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes. Madeline Taylor: She was lying even to herself, like even her mom wasn't safe. Caitlin Stryker: herself. I loved when you did that. I was like, that felt like... That felt ⁓ ⁓ I think we all lie to ourselves all the time about different things. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney: change the story. See, I thought I caught on that she kept dying and not dying. Like it didn't. I caught those and I'm like, she can come back to life. I did. But I thought I thought it was because she was his mate. And that gives her some kind of spent. I didn't expect her to be the Heir of Death. I but I thought because and then that line he's like, you can touch her, she's your and it like cuts off from that. ⁓ Madeline Taylor: Uh-huh. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ You did? I... ⁓ Madeline Taylor: Is he the heir? Yeah. ⁓ huh. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Courtney: And I was like, yeah, because she's she's something to the mate. And so it's been made that like their threads will never cross. Like I was in that world of it. So I that's what I thought it was coming out as. And then when the actual answer and I was so thrown by his anger at the end, because I was in that world and I was like, why is he so pissed? What is happening? reread the end. I read it again before we came on here, because I remember even when I finished the book, too. So I read it and I'm like, wait, what? And then I went back. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yes. Courtney: And I read it again. I did it like three times. I'm like, what is happening? Why? Why is everyone so mad? What is it? They're not mates. What is happening? Or they are, but it's not that. And I had to like rewire my brain to like what now the story was, which I love, love so much. Caitlin Stryker: You You Right? He's sworn to kill her. He's sworn to kill her. And I was like, whoa. And like, that's where we end on. I was like, what is happening? Courtney: Well, he already told us that's how he can take over the Heir in ascension. Exactly. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, because we introduced that concept that you can, If you kill an heir while they're in their ascension, you can then become that Heir ⁓ and ascend. And I think that's like when it clicks that like, that's what we were doing here. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: the air. Yes. Courtney: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Cakes are so high. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, that's what we were doing here. Courtney: That's what this is and that he is the son of a god still now. I'm like well who - I Obviously, we just need Book Two. Um Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Woo! Caitlin Stryker: I know, we still don't know who. Madeline Taylor: I mean, I think there's a lot of clues in book one about like, where he came from. But we do. Courtney: Okay. Hold on, hold on. You are a Taylor Swift fan, as am I, as am Caitlin. Massive Swifty. So are you an Easter egg writer? Is that, so we can go back through and find Easter eggs? Okay. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good timing. Yes. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Okay. Gah! Madeline Taylor: yeah, ⁓ include a lot of Easter eggs and yeah, like there's a lot of things I hide and like ⁓ I'm always like, my God, it's so obvious. And it's a single throwaway line like a 400 page book. And I'm like, my God, they're gonna know. ⁓ Courtney: Thank Okay, I'm going back for the Easter eggs and going back when we come- when you come back here for Book Two I'm going to bring up all the Easter eggs and be like, is that correct? Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Madeline Taylor: And there's some that I'm still laying. I laid some of the eggs and then I'm gonna continue to lay them in Book Two and then they're gonna come to fruition and hatch in Book Three. Yeah, I love an Easter egg. I love to look back at things after you've finished it and you see where the clues were. And I love a misdirect and I love, you know, because we're all like, Courtney: Mm-hmm. I love that so much Caitlin Stryker: This is exciting. ⁓ this is exciting. Yes. Madeline Taylor: we've all read these books, you we're all experienced like romantasy readers, like we know that like, they're never who you think they are. ⁓ like, so I knew I wanted to give you the reveal like, ⁓ Thorne is Killian, Thorne is the God of Death. Like I wanted to give that to you earlier ⁓ So you think, you caught it. ⁓ like, you know, like, you know, and then it's revealed, you were right. Like, but you weren't like, yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes, But there's so much more to it. Caitlin Stryker: Yep. Yep. You got me. You totally got me. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, because it's kind of like being a magician. Like you have to like, you got to make people feel like they're on the right track and you've got to make them look over here so they're not looking over here and like, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, I love that. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Was it hard for you to decide who was going to be affected or did that come out really naturally? Like who would get here, like who was gonna hear the whispers? Madeline Taylor: who was gonna be. Oh, okay. So that kind of just came from like, just the story progression. I, so at first I had no plans for Remy to be taken, but like corrupted by the Whisper. Um, like then as it was going, I was like, you know what? It has to, like you gotta, you gotta lose them. And I, the Whispers kind of came from like, I have all these nightmares. I'm, I have a lot of crazy dreams. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: to happen. It had to happen. Courtney: Okay. Madeline Taylor: And I have all these nightmares that like, that everybody I know, like gets infected by a parasite and they look like them, but they're not them. And they like, and I don't know who, who is which and like, who's the real version and like, who's been taken and like, um, and I'm like having to run and like, it's always very terrifying to like feel surrounded by familiar faces, but you don't know if they're actually who you think they are. Um, and so I wanted to take that like, Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Madeline Taylor: feeling into the book and that was kind of how the whole whisper thing came about of like, the sword corrupts people, but you don't know who's been taken by it. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, And the way that it seems like it just kind of like, like filters, you know, like, like without control. And it's moving in this way that like, even now, like at the end of the book, I was like, what is going on with that sword? And then the book ends, I'm like, okay, wait a minute. I was sort of being like, where's the sword? Where's the necklace? Where's the other necklace? I'm like, where? Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney: It's unstoppable. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, ⁓ where's the sword? Like, where is it? Who's got it? Some really important pieces that we need to like, need to be keeping an eye on. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: We lost track of some key items here. Yeah, yeah. Everybody seems to have taken their eye off the ball. I'm a little concerned. Courtney: Thank you. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you should be. It's not great. Courtney: What? Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. No. No. Yeah. Courtney: It's gonna end well, well start well when we jump back in. Madeline Taylor: Well, I mean, I will just say that like this sword has a role to play and like there's obviously a lot that like we've been ⁓ like talking about it, like uncovering about it, like the, you know, the whole, the name of the sword being like The Soul of the Star. And like that's what Almanova means in the old language. And Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Yes. Madeline Taylor: Just everybody keeps talking about he, like, he's whispering, he's coming and like, Courtney: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we didn't we didn't get to the bottom of that because we were ended it under so much attack and like all these things and she died and then didn't and came back to life and all of that and there and we the book finished and it was like this other whole reveal and then I was like, but Where'd the big baddie go? I'm like where'd the big baddie go? ⁓ Which great, but you know what I will also say like you left us on this cliffhanger of like okay, I want more Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Courtney: Came back to life. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. We used to have that. was like, yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, so we do we to get into it. Caitlin Stryker: But I'm satisfied that you, like what needed to be accomplished in this book, in this story happened. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't love when I feel like I'm really left like hanging in a way where I'm like, you didn't finish. Like you didn't like complete what needed to be completed in this book. I, you know, so I, and I mean, it's gotta be a tough balance. Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Not yet. Nothing's finished. Courtney: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Like it's a balance. have to, You have to like, if it's a series, you know, there have to be things like pieces that haven't been fully connected yet, like loose threads that we're still pulling on. ⁓ but then you also have to have like, you know, we start the book, we want to find this missing sword and like, you know, Baylor tasks her with returning it to him. Courtney: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: And by the end, I mean in a way she has done that. Yeah, ⁓ unfortunately, wish we didn't. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. ⁓ Courtney: Yep, she completed that task. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, but we also needed to get the collar off, right? And we get that that was like Courtney: Yeah, we need the collar off. Madeline Taylor: Yeah, had to get the collar off. The collar has been removed. We've learned a lot of things. She's escaped Baylor. Yeah. And in Book Two we're going to deal a lot with like the theme of ⁓ predeterminism versus free will. You know, how much like, yeah, with the fates always pulling the strings. ⁓ And yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: You play with that with the kids, that's exciting. Courtney: Yes, because there's a big thing for Thorne that he was warned about at the ball. Like you, I've already told you this, this is going to happen whether you want it to or not. ⁓ which I do think has to do with the Fated Mates and some kind of battle between his own mate. That's my guess from her, like hint at him. But I, do you know when, do you know when the second book's coming out? Do you have that date yet? It's not announced yet when it's coming out. Okay. Madeline Taylor: ⁓ huh. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Madeline Taylor: Yeah. I'm Nadia. Hi, I know when it's coming out. I know, but yeah, it's not announced yet. I actually, I'm ⁓ turning in the second draft a week from today. I was like, what is today? I don't know. Caitlin Stryker: Amazing. What is today? It's a Monday. That's why it's a Monday. ⁓ I'm dead. No, but it's the right, it's... Courtney: It's getting closer. It's gonna be here. Listen, I think you did leave it on a great cliffhanger. I mean, I hate it. I read them. I'm like, but it's the right spot. It's not gonna be one of those series you read book one and two and go like, ⁓ this could have been one book, which happens in a lot of series when they go independent to traditional publishing. You're like, this really should have been one story. That's not this series. That's not this book. You've written a beautiful first book in a three book series that everyone should read and then be Madeline Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-mm. Yeah. Yes. Courtney: Like me just waiting for the second book if you need more beta readers I'm happy to put my hand up for you because I will happily dive in and tell you. Yes, I'll - give me the eggs. ⁓ but it's so I love that it left me like that like it when I end a book I'm like fuck that's a good thing because it reads what it was done ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: I like I'm drunk here. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: I wanted to leave people with that feeling of like one you want more but two you're also just like damn, what a ride. Like it took me on a journey. Like I just wanted to leave it on this feeling of like wanting more but also being like exhilarated because that's my favorite way when I'm reading something like that's the feeling I want to be left with or like at the end of a show like I want to be left with oh my god like damn Courtney: Yes, that was this book. Caitlin Stryker: Yes, yes. Courtney: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. That's it. That's it. That's totally it. my gosh, Madeline Taylor. Thank you so much for coming on and joining us to talk about Heir Illusion, Heir of Illusion and damn, let's go on this ride again with Book Two. We'd love to have you back and talk about that one because it's just ⁓ and especially because now we know we got to go back and find all the Easter eggs and see what we can do. Courtney: Yeah. Madeline Taylor: Let's do it all again. Like, yeah. Yeah. Courtney: Yeah, and you did that. Yeah. Yes! Madeline Taylor: Yeah! ⁓ yeah. Courtney: Yes! Yes! I have a scorecard. Let's see how we get. Madeline Taylor: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah? Caitlin Stryker: Yes. ⁓ my gosh, you guys, you gotta read it. Air Heir of Illusion by Madeline Taylor. It's so good. It's so, so good. Courtney: It's so good. Definitely. I'm so glad you gave us this gift of this book to the world because it's a great one. My pleasure. Love it. Madeline Taylor: Thank you for having me. Thank you for asking me to come on. Caitlin Stryker: Our pleasure, Absolutely. All right, well that is it for today's episode of Cait and Court's Cozy Corner. Keep reading, stay cozy, come back and join us again soon. Thank you again, Madeleine Taylor, Heir of Illusion. We'll see you next time, bye.