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Transcript

RIT vs. On-Deck · B Shifter

• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the B Shifter podcast.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: We are at FDIC in Indianapolis this week, so we are in the B Shifter house that we've been hanging out at all week.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Once Clarion figures out how to get VRBO money, it probably won't be as affordable as it is for us right now.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Usually we stay at the hotels at FDIC and this year we decided to shack up at a VRBO in a nice neighborhood called the Fountain Neighborhood, with interesting restaurants and bars and nice fixer-upper houses that are now being rented as VRBOs.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: So we're really fortunate to be here.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I could have done without the heavy metal music last night during dinner.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I'm a music fan, but we went to a restaurant that had a heavy metal theme, which I kind of felt to be very unusual.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: But the food was good, the food was good, it was good.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: And I think it actually helped us digest our fried jalapenos.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that helped quite a bit too.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: So today we're with Grant Light and Chris Stewart, and they're both here to talk with us today about on-deck and rapid intervention, which really doesn't have much to do with what's going on in FDIC, although I'm sure it's a topic that's being talked about this week, so let's dive into it.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: A lot of times people don't understand really what on deck is, especially the non blue card users.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: So for somebody who's new to blue card that has not been exposed to it before, why don't you guys take a shot at explaining what the on deck process is, to start off with?
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Well, if you take it back to the baseball analogy, it rolls right into that.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: That's the next person up, right?
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: So everybody else is in the dugout and that guy's up on a little circle and he's ready to go.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: He's got his plan, he's done his little practice swings and he's ready to go and paying extreme attention to what's going on in the game because he's next up.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: So we move that into the fire service.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: The on-deck crew is the next ones to go into the fire.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: So they're more engaged because they're listening to the radio and they know that they're listening to what's being said and they're talking to the.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: If they have a chief at the entrance there, they're talking to him face-to-face and they're ready to go in and do what the next assignment is.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: So they're they're.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: They're more engaged than than most of the other people who might be available to go in the building, but but because they know they're next in why on deck was invented to begin with?
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: because prior to on deck, there were rapid intervention teams that were standing by as designated rapid intervention teams.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: And let's dive into the difference between really what having that dedicated team is and what the on deck does for that function of being a rapid intervention team.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Well, so it goes back to Southwest supermarket fire in 2001 with Brett Tarver's death.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: After the fact, phoenix Fire Department started working on trying to figure out what is the most appropriate way to not only manage these but actually physically respond with crews to the inside.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: And in all of the literally thousands of drills that we did, we figured out that having a single point or this universally assigned crews to do RIC or RIT, or rapid intervention on the scene, regardless of the size of the building, regardless of the complexity of the incident, really became highly ineffective, and I think the term that was coined after that is rapid intervention is not rapid.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: So we had to start working on a way to get a tactical reserve, so extra companies into positions in actual divisions and or sectors in and around the fire ground to do a couple of different things to be ready to go to work Just like Grant said, recycle, with crews on the inside, that that that we need to continue the work that's going on inside.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: But then they are also perfectly placed then inside the key tactical positions where we're actually entering the fire ground that, if a mayday occurs, they are probably in the best position to manage or to respond from that exterior position to the interior of the building.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: So if you get tied up in this idea that you have to be kind of circulating around the building and being ready to spring into action at any moment's notice when a mayday occurs, you can be in the absolute wrong position at the absolute wrong time if we don't set up our system to be at the individual tactical locations in and around the building.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so it came from a lot of trial and error and trying to figure out the best way to go in and get firefighters, to figure out the best way to go in and get firefighters, and then taking that information and saying there's a low percentage of time when crews from the outside are actually going in and intervening with that mayday and getting that person out Doesn't mean it can't happen, it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: But what is it?
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: 92% of our maydays are solved by crews that are already working inside the hazard zone and those are actual maydays.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: That's not supposed statistics, that's actual data from Project Mayday that says that.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So it really really comes from a bunch of trial and error in the Phoenix system and elsewhere.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: I know there's other fire departments that have done very, very similar things to measure that.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So the baseball analogy it comes from a guy who was a shift commander in the city of Phoenix, who was a baseball coach and a baseball player previous to it, and it just it was a matter of fact, a backhanded statement is we'll just put them on deck.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Well, well, perfect, it actually stuck, it made sense, it was perfect.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I think that's the fundamental or foundation of it.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: And there's no um in blue card, especially we.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: We never say that those skills aren't important the firefighter rescue skills.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: We we referenced the fire ground survival program from the IFF and and other training that folks can get to to save their own.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: But it's a skill that everyone on the fire ground needs to have, including that firefighter who's having the mayday um to to get themselves out, because we know that 46% of the time again back to project mayday uh, that mayday is being solved by the firefighter themselves and and themselves and not necessarily anybody else on the inside when we move through the on deck position.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: So if you're a company and you're assigned to the on deck position and you're the next up as a company officer, what are the things that need to be going through that company officer's mind, especially if there's no division boss set up at that time in order to be that next one up, whether it's to replace a company inside doing the task location objective or if a mayday comes through?
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that, as we said in the beginning, you need to be cognizant of what's going on all around you, right?
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: So?
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: So, listening to the radio, talking to crews when they come out to find out, you know what's going on inside, what is the inside, you know what's going on in there and then have a heads up on on what your capabilities are in your crew, right, so we don't all have the best crew.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: Every day we get people detailed in and new people and all that.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: So you have to just you know, talk to them and you know, let them know what's going on.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: But you also have to know what your limitations are, right?
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: Not every firefighter is created equal, right?
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: So you have a brand new guy on your crew.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: You're going to have to think about that, that.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: You've got to watch over them as well as try to move forward and try to do whatever task you're assigned.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: So, I think, understanding that bigger picture of not just you, the company officer, you need to understand what's going on within your team and then what's going on at the fire.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Be very cognizant of what's happening with that.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, as crews coming up, it's the continuation of size up, continuation of paying attention to the conditions, paying attention to what's actually going on in the area in which they're assigned, listening to radio traffic, seeing the progress and starting to anticipate and forecast.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: What is it that, when they're ready to recycle, because we're talking on average like between 10 to 15 minute work cycles for firefighters on the inside, if I get assigned on deck then I need to be ready, I need to be paying attention to because I'm going to do one of two things.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: They're either going to put the fire out or knock the fire down and start the checking for extension and the overhaul process, and we're going to come the fire out or knock the fire down and start the checking for extension and the overhaul process, and we're going to come in and continue that.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Or they are not going to get it knocked down and we might need to actually recycle and continue a firefight, but knowing and recognizing we're not going to.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: It's not very often that we recycle one or two times and still there still be fire and we're still on the offensive strategy.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Something got to be prepared for something to change.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: And then, from the division boss perspective.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: When folks come into that position or they get assigned on deck in a division let's say that we're supervising I have an expectation that they're showing up dressed, ready to go, they've got their equipment, they're serious, they're paying attention, they uh, they're organizing themselves and they're evaluating what they could potentially need on the inside, whether they're going into recycle with a company or whether we end up hearing mayday, mayday, mayday on the fire ground.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: So there's that mindset, preparation, and I think the boss, the sector, the division boss, really needs to kind of set that tone with here's what you need to be ready to do if you're coming to work here for me.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: And the first company up to that on-deck position needs to bring a certain set of equipment with them.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: What needs to go to that on-deck position needs to bring a certain set of equipment with them.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: What needs to go to that division first, air right.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: So air is, you know from the mayday study and for all that, air is really what most firemen need if they can't get themselves out.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: That's the, that's the highest priority.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: So we have writ packs, or whatever you call them in your area, um, there more than one.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Um then we want to get, we want to have that available to take in with us.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: We need more than one because we need one for the fireman and then potentially we need one for ourselves or somebody else there that's trying to assist him, so that we're not always leaving right away when your air gets low.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: We want to keep that operation going forward and so we need to have that air there.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: There's been a couple of Mayday calls that have gone out where the people that collapsed and they called for like three or four airbags because they knew they were going to need one for him and they knew they were getting people in deep enough that the process of changing them out was going to take more time than just filling them up with air as well, transfilling them, and which would make the whole operation go faster.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: So it's not always just for the firefighter, but we definitely need one, two or three airbags.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: It really can't say you have too many, but we need that, that availability of air.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: That's.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: That's usually what saves.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: We already have, most likely, a hose line in place for fire protection, but what's really going to going to be the first disaster for that firefighter is to run out of air.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we're seeing some really interesting stuff going on right now or at least I think it's interesting where we're seeing very recent maydays based on fire events, meaning rapid change in fire conditions on the inside, and I don't mean this as bad as it sounds, but the inability to actually extinguish or manage the fire.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: So, whether it was conscientious and they made the choice to search, or they were doing other things and they had rapid fire development or increased growth, or they just had ineffective line placement or getting their water in the wrong spot, is when that mayday happens.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: There's got to be a conscientious decision about fire control, as well as locating, packaging, getting that firefighter together enough to be able to get them out, Because we are not going to be able to work under high heat, high fire conditions for very long without putting water on the fire, whether we've got a firefighter down or not.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: That's just.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: We're not going to us as firefighters in our gear.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: We are not going to tolerate it for very long if it's not being managed appropriately.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: We hear a lot of times when that first crew is assigned to go on deck, engine two arrives, engine two I want you to bring your rip bag up, go on deck on the alpha side.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: And then I cringe when I hear them also get the assignment to soften the building.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: But let's talk about what that team should be doing if they're actually on deck and maybe what they shouldn't be doing when they're on deck, and maybe what other subsequent arriving companies should do if there is a need to soften the building.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: So that if you get assigned on deck, then you are there for a tactical reserve.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: You're there either to go to work or you're there to be able to manage a mayday or operate within a mayday situation.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Manage a mayday or operate within a mayday situation, and so if you are asked then to start softening the building, opening things up, taking bars hopefully not taking windows randomly it's got to be a coordinated thing, right and then if you are given that assignment, you are not in a position then to respond to a mayday.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: You are engaged in actual work.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: So that is a true assignment in that division or sector, right?
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: So if that's the case and you have one company on deck and you give them hey, start to soften this side of the building, you better be getting another crew up there so they can actually be paying attention and truly assume that on-deck position because you've put that other company to work.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: And so there is again this ability to do all this stuff and then still be ready to respond to a mayday is not?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's based in reality, quite frankly, is not?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's based in reality, quite frankly, and we probably need to be way more clear about that and make sure that if we want people on deck, put them on deck.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: If we want people doing assignments like softening the building or forcing entry or creating other access points into the fire, then that's their tactical assignment.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Right, they're not on deck anymore.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah, right.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: There's nobody there.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: That was in my department.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: That was the assignment of the RIT crew, right?
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: So they were supposed to come up, they brought all their equipment up and they staged it near the entrance.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: And then they went to soften up the building and in the summer, when it's 110 degrees out, they're walking back to a ladder truck or you know the engine to get a ladder and then they're going back and forth and back and forth, so they're not really near the front of the building.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: And then it became an issue that by the time they got done doing all that, they were exhausted and yet they were still the rapid intervention team, and so sometimes you got to breathe air, to do that, right, right, yeah, well, they also were well caught.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: On the other end of the stick is there was complaints that hey, when we're doing this, can we just take our packs off and leave them at the front door so that we are not carrying our packs back and forth and we're making it easy on us, so we're not as exhausted.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: So then it just became it was just kind of a downhill slide.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: So they, they would do that, and so they were now in the back of the building without their packs on, not really ready to go, not really paying attention to what's going on in the fire, because they're doing their soften the building thing, and it was.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: It would became a huge distraction.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: And then you know, you realize later on that, man, if they really needed them, how long would it take to get that crew together and from the, from the Phoenix studies, even having a crew there all ready to go to say hey, go, you'll turn that on, you know, oh, we need you in there now took a long period of time.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Now imagine they're in the back of the building without their packs on and not really paying a lot of attention, and not that they're in attention, but they're trying to do this task they were given soften the building Then, if they were needed, it would have been just an incredible amount of time to gather them, get their equipment on, get ready to go, explain what's really going on, what they're supposed to do.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: It doesn't work.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: So Grant brings up a great great point.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: So in the in in the recovery process in Phoenix it was for so crews that were assigned essentially on deck.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: It wasn't termed on deck during the drills but it became the on deck position that are there dedicated and we're doing exercise where we know where there's going to be a Mayday right.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: On average it was two and a half minutes from the time of Mayday to the time that company broke the threshold of the door into the building and that's just communication getting themselves ready.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: They already had their gear on, we had lines in place, we were all ready to go.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: That was two and a half minutes, just simply in that.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: So again that leads to that rapid intervention is not rapid.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: So if you're doing anything else to distract that, that takes that two and a half minutes in that situation and amplifies it to five minutes to seven minutes before you're actually in a position to be able to enter the building.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: So I think it's a great point.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: So we always say you know we need to be doing everything right.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: When something goes wrong and it's inevitable.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: If you do May Day simulations with us and we go through the first three days of simulations and we're operating pretty good, we're doing blue card, it seems like when we get to May Day day, they all of a sudden want to start to soften the building and they weren't even thinking about it the first three days.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: What does right look like for that, like for actually softening the building and actually making things safe?
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, is it necessary all the time?
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: What is necessary?
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: We see departments that you know it's in their SOPs to throw ladders to every window.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: You know what is really the best practice in your guys' opinion about that.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Well, a lot of times when we soften the building, we're doing things just in case, right.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: So we're forcing doors just in case we need to use it If we haven't already made entrance in that door, or we're taking bars just in case we need to use it if we haven't already made entrance in that door, or we're taking bars off in case somebody needs to bail out, or we need to use it to gain entrance, or you know, or that if we start softening the building in a way that changes the ventilation profile of the building, we can really screw up what's going on in on the inside.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: So if we start cutting, roll up doors, it's really hard to put that back If that starts creating a ventilation profile issue for us.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Well, you can't unbreak windows, right?
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: So there's there's issues surrounding that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: So it needs to be coordinated, it needs to be well thought out Um and uh and it and you know, sometimes firefighters just want to do something cause it seems to be cool or it looks like a challenge, right, and I'm, I'm, I'm down for that on most days.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: But if we're engaged in that and we're so focused on that, then we may not be paying attention to the things we really should be paying attention to on the fire ground.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: So, grant, what'd you guys do to like, soften the building?
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: What was, what were the?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Because you've got interesting buildings in Cincinnati so, like, if you're going around trying to make, create, create additional access points, what did your, what did your crews focus on?
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: So focus was supposed to be on ladders to the second floor Well, not really a third floor generally, but to second floor at a angle that was a more of a steeper angle.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: So if they had to bail out, they weren't going straight down the ladder and then making sure that a door, if somebody got to it, would open.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: So you were had to bail out.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: They weren't going straight down the ladder and then making sure that a door, if somebody got to it, would open.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: So you were supposed to force the doors and then you close them.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: You weren't supposed to leave them open, but you were supposed to force them and then close them.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: The, the.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: We don't have a lot of bar on window areas, so that wasn't a super high priority but it was kind of on the list of things to do.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: But the ladders was the ladders, and the and the force in the doors is a big thing.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: It was.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: You were not.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: You're supposed to put the ladders up and not break the windows.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: So that was, you know, defined.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: And then the doors and the and the ladders were the big thing.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: So you were.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Your goal was to kind of look at the building and then figure out where the firefight's happening and then maybe the next room over.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: That's where you would put the ladder.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: So if they had some place to go, um, then we would announce on the radio where they put the ladder, which you know from the outside it seems.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of the in my vision.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: We put the ladder here, but inside you don't really know how that relates to the interior layout of the building.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: So you kind of gave them an idea of there was a ladder here or there kind of thing.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: So that was the goal and that's where the rub came is that they were putting a lot of that up and then it just became a lot of work and then they were, you know, they were starting to be whipped before they're ever really needed.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: For the one time somebody calls a meeting, what?
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: did you guys do in Phoenix for softening?
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Did you do that?
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Anything and everything.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, it was it.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: We had a fair amount of bars on windows, um, uh, you know, along first floor.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: So, managing that, um, we did tend to force a lot of doors, uh, man doors, and then there were plenty of times where we were starting to cut, uh, roll up doors in, um, mostly because we could, right, it went down.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Not necessarily it was that we felt like it was going to serve a purpose, but just in case and here's a great opportunity to practice cutting doors.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: So, um, not not necessarily a great customer service thing Um, so, um, but it was not very well organized and it was not very well coordinated, because a lot of times that work was never assigned to a division or a sector and it was not very well coordinated because a lot of times that work was never assigned to a division or a sector and it didn't really have a supervisor that was coordinating that.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So it was oftentimes it had no connection to the work that was happening inside the building, uh, or um, uh, really have anything to do with, maybe, where the crews were or weren't inside the building.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: So it was it.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: It tends to be, even though it's it's company officer led, I don't mean to say that it's, it's not, but it tends to be a relatively and I'll use the term.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: It was a freelancing operation, quite honestly, and I don't mean that necessarily derogatorily, but it was, it was right.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Do whatever you think you need to do.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: So company officer walks around and goes oh, we should do this, this and this, and OK, we're going to go do that, that and that.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Well, that's part of having a thinking company officer who is capable of understanding the building and understanding, you know, what, what they really need to do versus what they want to do.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: A lot of times, and you know, I come from a community that, uh, you know most of the most of the residential buildings are pretty easy to get into.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: We have a big burglary problem that uh, that uh, as evidence of that.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: But you know, once you get to a commercial structure it's a completely different experience, especially like we have a ton of tilt slab buildings that are manufacturing facilities and that kind of thing in my new department.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: So that's a whole different problem if you're going to a commercial building.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: But I often point out is, especially if the utilities aren't controlled.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: We can soften from the inside a lot of times and get those doors open using the controls that are in there at least, releasing them from the mechanisms and unlocking things and stuff if you can get a crew inside to do it too.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of ways to skin that cat.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: But I think it's important that we control the building and we make that building behave.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Tom Brennan used to say that all the time, and I'm thinking about some of the discussions that are going on this week as we're at FDIC, about search culture and everything else, and he used to point out that they'd go into buildings with very cheap turnout gear, you know, ball band gloves and three quarter length coats and a leather helmet and they made the building behave now and in his view, a lot of times that that equaled ventilation when there was fire control.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: But I think I always use that building behave in terms of getting access in and out.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: If we needed to get access in and out and that's an every time thing right, that's not just in case of a Mayday.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: We want to make sure that we're doing it right every time.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: So having those discussions internally and understanding what kind of buildings you have and and and the access is really important.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: And then let's not forget the Knox key.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: The Knox key is available in a lot of communities.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, the door handle, yeah, yeah, yeah, try before you pry.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, like you said, it's it looked locked.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: It's fun.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: It's fun to break stuff, but it's not the best customer service.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: So once you're on deck, just tactically, what are the things that the company officer needs to be thinking of aside from that rapid intervention?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: What should they be thinking about and how do they monitor what their crew's doing and communicate that back?
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Well, I think they, you know, first off, just watching the building and seeing just like everybody else sees, is it changing to white smoke and is their water getting put on the fire?
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, the nice thing is that they have that opportunity to talk to crews that are exiting and that kind of stuff.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: So even if you're in a group of people who are on deck and you're not the next one to go in, you still want to get that information from companies as they come out to talk to them and find out what's going on in there, what's the layout, all that kind of stuff.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: So you have kind of you can make a mental map of where you're going to go, what's needed, and then that would help if, in case there was a Mayday call, you kind of have an idea of what's going on.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: You're not just standing out front with a blank stare, looking at the building, talking to your buddies about what you did last night.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: You know you're fully engaged into what's going on in that fire.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: The need for information is important but we don't just talk all the time on the radio just hey, what's going on in there?
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: That kind of stuff.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: You know it's much better face to face.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: But you know, looking at that building and then kind of hopefully you've made runs, you know, to many of the places we go, especially apartment buildings, we made EMS runs and all that there, so kind of that layout of how that works out.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: You should know whether the apartments align.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: You know, if I go on this floor, 101 is the same as 201, 301, all that kind of stuff.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: You should know all that just from making EMS runs and making general.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Maybe you do inspections, all that kind of stuff.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: So that prior knowledge is really important and then just kind of running through that, the whole process of looking at you know what, what are the critical factors?
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: They're still changing right.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Every time you look at a building, every time a radio call goes out, you should be running through what are the critical factors here?
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: What's changing, what's not changing, is it getting better, is it getting worse?
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: So you kind of have an understanding, when you get sent in, kind of what the game plan is going to be right.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think from my perspective it's objective driven and it's benchmark driven right objective driven and it's benchmark driven right.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: So if the initial companies got assigned to uh for fire control and then and maybe primary search, okay, what were they able to accomplish with the fire control and and both?
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: What do I see and what are they telling us?
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: And then, in what areas did they get their primary search done and they did get an all clear and what areas didn't they?
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Because I want to be able to pick that up and I don't.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I don't want to search places that have already been searched.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: I want to be as efficient and effective as I can.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Is getting the primary searches done quickly Right?
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Because it matters that when we're at the FDIC and it's a true statement the faster we find victims, the more survivable and more savable.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: They are Right.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: So so we want to be fairly efficient at that, but it's got to be most times connected with fire control and making sure that we're not that we use expectation that I for the work, for us to continue on the inside and do I think I'm going to need help doing that right.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: That needs part of our that communication is if, if I don't get the needs even face to face, I'm like all right, what else do we need in there?
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, we'll, we'll make sure that we're ready to do that.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: And then I'm going to be really clear about communicating that stuff when it's time for us to come out and somebody to recycle in for us.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: So that communications part objective driven and benchmark driven.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: So you're through your first work cycle.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: You come out to recycle.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: What does that look like?
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: And the reason I bring this up is we've had to coach a lot of lollygagging.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: That tends to happen on that first work cycle.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: They come out, they want to get the drink of water first before they change their air.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: What's the danger in that, when your job is to go back on deck as soon as you can?
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Well, you, you leave a hole there if you're not there ready to go to work.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: So I mean it also matters of what kind of forces.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: You know personnel, your first alarm, second alarm, whatever you have there, can put on the scene.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: So if there's nobody else there to fill that on-deck spot, then you need to hustle up to get that change happen right so you can get back because you know you're not just there, you're not coming back for the next cycle of firefighting, you're coming back to potentially save one of your buddies, you know.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: So you've got to put that in your head.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Let's hustle up.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: And a lot of places are saying, when you come up on deck to bring SCBA bottles with you and you know, have them sitting near the front door, because we know, you know well, I know you probably know the same ones Firemen, once they walk back to the fire truck, they see somebody that they haven't seen in a while because they're detailed somewhere in the hey, what's going on?
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: And then that you know they lose track of.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: Like, hey, I need to get back up there and fill that spot so that you know, or their trucks way down the road and a little, a little, uh, residential street and it takes a long time to walk there, get your stuff, get back.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: So having the spare bottles and stuff near the front of the building cuts all that down right so they can just go out, change it out, um, and then they're ready to go back in because you know we, first and foremost, you know that is a rip team, that is a ready to go in to help my brother team, and you know you don't think about it that way, way, but that's what it is.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: And so if you take your eye off the ball there and go all the way back to your fire truck and don't hustle back up and a mayday goes out, there's not going to be somebody standing there If you're short staffed at that time.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: This is the perfect role and one of the more important reasons for having a support officer working with the division officer.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: So that role is they've got to play part traffic cop in managing the on-deck crews and ready to go, and then when you actually do recycle, they've got to be a little bit of a motivational speaker and getting them prepped, ready to go.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Hey man, I need you back here.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: I don't have anybody else coming yet.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: We need you back here because you are on deck, you are the rescue company if we have something bad.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Because if the division boss or the sector boss is actually paying attention to the work and what's going on, the conditions, communicating appropriately with command, they don't necessarily are able to manage those personnel and that support officer.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: They're worth their weight in gold when they're doing that stuff for you working in that position.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: All right, great discussion on what we do on deck and with rapid intervention.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Of course, you can go to one of our Mayday workshops to better understand how we manage May Days with Blue Card.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Or feel free to drop any of us a line and we can further that discussion.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Or, if there's a specific question that came up while you were listening, please reach out and let us know.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Hey, it's time now for a timeless tactical truth.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: All right, timeless tactical truth.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: You will resent and resist any supervision you receive.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: You don't need again from Bruno.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Timeless tactical truth you will resent and resist any supervision you receive.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: You don't need.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: We talked about empowering your officers to make good decisions and trust them to do that, and I think what Bruno is talking about here is the famous micromanager.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I saw a quote here recently that micromanaging is macro damaging, which is a very interesting thought, right, and?
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: But it's a hundred percent true, right?
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Very true.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the micromanaging I've received.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: I feel as if I've become pretty effective at resisting micromanagement and pushing back on it.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Right, it's the old adage of tell tell your folks what, what you want, give them the tools to do it and the training to do it, and get the hell out of their way and tell them how they did in the end Right.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: And so you will never get high performing folks, free thinking folks, people that are willing to really really do the work, if we don't get out of the way right and allow them that growth and development and and and then the ability to cause.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: We all need to have the perspective because we're training our replacement.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: So give them the opportunity to figure this stuff out and get the hell out of the way.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: So give them the opportunity to figure this stuff out and get the hell out of the way.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's nothing.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: A company officer working inside a structure hates more than the chief calling you and asking you what's going on.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: And then you tell them and then two minutes later they call and they ask you what's going on.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: And two minutes later and inside you're like Jesus Christ, just let me do my job.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: You know like leave me alone.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: I can't do my job because I'm talking on the radio the whole time.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Or you do something very counterproductive you just turn your radio off.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: It's happened.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: Or you just turn your brain off.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: I'm not answering anymore, but it just drives people crazy.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: And you know, give them room to run.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Like you said, if you train them correctly, they should be able to finish that task.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: And I mean the, the, the chief always has the opportunity to call for a can report and all that.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: And I always find it interesting when we do train the trainer classes and we do mayday classes and all that, and and when you get done doing a scenario and they go man, there was, it was so quiet on the radio, you know there was.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: I got nervous, like the guys who were, you know, were playing the chief, like I got nervous and I kept wanting to call him.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: I thought no, I shouldn't do that because just let them go with it.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: You know they're going to, they're going to call out when they have a status change or when they can't do something.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: They're going to let you know.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: But otherwise you got to assume they're doing the good work that you told them to do and taught them to do.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: And and if you remember back to you know the days when you were that company officer, you didn't like it when the chief called you 20 times.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: So try not to be that guy.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: I love management by objective.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: I like giving somebody an objective, whether it's a chief officer or somebody else, whether it's part of our daily routine or on the emergency scene, and then letting them go do it.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Would it be the way that I would do it?
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, a lot of times it isn't, but that's okay, they're getting the job done.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Get out of their way and let them do it.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: And if there's other stuff that you want to talk about, you know if there's another way you can talk about that after the fact, but let them do the job, as long as they're doing it safely and they're getting it done.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Get out of their way.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, I wanted to ask you one more thing before we go.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: We're going to Cincinnati the week of September 30th for the Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: If you're interested in attending that, we have a link in the show notes where you can find all the information you both are teaching there.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Chris, what is your class?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: What are you doing?
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I am going to be doing an introduction for folks that have not taken our strategic decision-making and critical thinking class and so introduce to the audience kind of the finer details and the underlying thought process of utilizing blue card strategic decision-making process and the recognition that it actually is our critical thinking model.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: It's not tell us what to think, but how to think.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's what I'll be discussing in my room.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: What do you got going, greg.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: We're putting together a blue card and technical rescue how to manage technical rescue incidents and so that's going to be a multi-module.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: You know what what how to command or use blue card to run a trench incident or something like that and then a lot of first in company officer decisions.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: For someone who's not a technical rescue person, who shows up at a technical rescue event, what is your best plan for how to deal with that?
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: You know you don't have to be a full technical rescue guy to understand the what, what you're, what you don't, shouldn't do, right, what you shouldn't do to get yourself that can get you in trouble.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: So it's kind of I'm going to, we're going to do an overview of that program that we're going to be where we're working on now.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: All right, so look forward to seeing everyone in Cincinnati.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: It's going to be another great year at the blue card hazard zone conference.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I look forward to your classes.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for the discussion today, guys.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: It's been good.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: It's time for us to go to FDIC.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: So, if you're, of course, listening to this after the fact, so if we saw you at FDIC, it was really good to see you, but we'll head on over there Until next time.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to B-Shifter.