Latest / Through the Line: Packaging and Processing / Cybersecurity is Part of Food Safety Now: ProFood World

Transcript

Cybersecurity is Part of Food Safety Now: ProFood World · Through the Line: Packaging and Processing

0:03
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Through the Line, the podcast exploring innovations and information across the packaging and processing landscape.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: From topics impacting consumer packaged goods and healthcare packaging to the latest technologies in food processing operations.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Through the Line.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm Derek Thiel, editor-in-chief of ProFood World.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: Cybersecurity has become a plant floor issue, not just an IT issue.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: As more food and beverage manufacturers connect equipment, automate processes, and rely on digital systems, cyber risks can affect production, product quality, worker safety, and business continuity.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: In this episode, I'm joined by Kristen King, cybersecurity strategist, author of Securing What Feeds Us, Cybersecurity and Food and Agriculture, CEO and founder of Anson Sage, and CEO and co-founder of Anson OT.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: Kristen has spent years researching cyber risk across the food and agriculture sector, and she shares practical guidance on where manufacturers are most vulnerable, why operational technology deserves more attention, and what companies of every size can do to strengthen their defenses.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Let's get into the conversation.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: Kristen, thank you for joining me today.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: So you are the author of a book, as we were talking about that before we started recording.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: You're the author of a book.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: And so how do you feel that gives you insight into this industry, if at all?
1:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, I feel like that's a funny statement because there's a lot of experts out there that wrote a book, right?
1:35
SPEAKER_01: Or people that feel like they're experts after they've read a book, because I feel like that happens quite frequently too.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: I think what separates me a little bit differently is there's never been a book that's been written about food and agriculture from a cybersecurity perspective or a cyber physical perspective.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of information out there, studies at different colleges and universities around the world, but there was never one consolidated location for all this information.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: And I consolidated that information, sprinkled a bunch of my stories, sprinkled a bunch of stories from others, and tried to make it more relevant for an average person who's just a consumer who's eating, to someone who is an operational technology expert, to a cybersecurity expert, to a farmer, to someone on the production floor, to someone in a fishery, to anyone who just wanted to pick it up.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, I was catering to anybody who eats.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: So I would assume that's everybody who's probably listening or reading this.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: But that is, I don't know if that makes me authority.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: That definitely makes me a really great researcher, which I appreciate that.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: But I also think that it's time we talked about this because food and agriculture has had technology, has had cyber incidences for years now, decades.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: And we have never really talked about it.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: And it's still the forgotten critical infrastructure.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: There's no regulations around it.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: There's really not a lot of chatter.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: It's getting to be a little bit more because the filings and forcing of conversation.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, you can always have those backroom conversations where people will talk to you and pull you aside at a conference and tell you they've been through a breach, or they are scared that they might have to go through one, or it happened to one of their third parties, or happened to their friend who works at this other company, which you totally know it's them talking about themselves, but you let it happen anyways.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: Those kind of moments happen, but I'm only one person.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: So I can't imagine that must be duplicated multiple times in other places.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: I hope.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: And more people are talking about this.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Or it's talked about at the lot store, or it's talked about around the water cooler, or it's talked about at lunch, or it's talked about at the family dinner table.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: It happens, these conversations, but it's not happening at a grander scale where we can actually take action from it.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: And that's another reason why the book needed to be written.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: Because this helps you take some action and small actions, which will compound to larger things.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean a huge, hefty price tag.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: It just means a different strategy.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: You have to roll cybersecurity into different places in your business.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: You have to make it part of your business.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: It's not just a cost center, it's an opportunity center.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: And why so, what's driving the shift to be for food and beverage manufacturers to be more focused on cybersecurity?
4:16
SPEAKER_02: And why should they be paying attention now?
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, breaches are happening, ransomware's happening, all the stuff is happening.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: So that is one reason.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: So they want to be proactive and stay resilient in the face of an attack.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: That's a great reason to start.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing is sometimes regulation is going to be coming down the line.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: I think people are trying to get ahead of that.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: I call it the compliance scramble, which is not a great reason to get secure, but it's it is a reason.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Europe is forcing it with NIST2 directive and things like that.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: So third parties will be pushed on, things like that will happen.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: There could be some adjacent type industries that roll things out, advisory guidance for food defense, like PaaS 96 2026.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: That's a great example of one.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: Some other food safety might force cyber conversations.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: So those might be part of it, the compliance game.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: And obviously the incidences are part of the game.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: But I also think that the more tech that's added, I think people are starting to ask more questions.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: Hey, is this tech been made securely?
5:15
SPEAKER_01: What do I need to secure it?
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Or people in IT and cybersecurity inside of these organizations, especially the larger ones, are going, hello, this isn't secure.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: We can't just throw this in.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: And then of course the production fight starts of production needs this.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Great, you should have vetted it through us first.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Blah, blah, blah, blah.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: So I think that change management is gonna be coming a little bit more of a conversation rather than just let's throw that in and hopefully it works.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: It's on the dashboard now.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: That kind of freaks me out.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of that third-party popping is making people jumpy.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And then let's be real capitalism and money.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: We want to make sure we keep our money at an organization.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to have to pay out to some bad actor criminal.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: And then on top of that, we want to keep our production uptime going and our food safe.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: So if we have any of those compromised situations that happen, we can't guaranteed safe food and we can't keep our employees employed.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: And then that causes a whole other distressful situations, as I'm sure.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: So what in your opinion makes food and beverage manufacturers prime targets?
6:19
SPEAKER_02: Like why a food and beverage instead of a hospital that we've heard hospitals being attacked or infrastructure?
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Everything's being attacked right now.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's actually pretty easy.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Answer it is availability and uptime.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: So an attacker knows nation state threat actors and or just bad people in general, criminals, we'll just call them criminals, know that food and beverage will pay a ransom or pay to get out of their incident faster than say a finance institution would, because a finance institution would just roll over and whatever.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: We'll move on with the next thing.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that they won't panic if they have held it ransom, but it's different because food and beverage has biological constraints that don't stop.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: Either you've got animals going on in that mix, you've got fermentation that's in that mix, or pasteurization that's in that mix, you've got processes that cannot stop.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: You have ovens that are on, you've got other factors for safety that you can't just shut down or start back up very quickly.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: So paying that ransom to get it back up is paramount to getting your food back and moving, because that's your whole situation.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: So attackers know that.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: So of course they're like, cool, you you're gonna pay us quick, and then we're gonna make that payday and it's gonna be fine and done with.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: And same with hospitals.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Hospitals are attacked for the same reason because they can't be down, they have to be up.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: So, same concept.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think that it becomes lazy when people say that, oh, it's because food and agriculture is low-hanging fruit.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: That is not true.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: Some of these food and agricultural businesses are complex as I'll get out.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: So the fact that an attacker knows they've spent time, they've done their recon, they probably know your business better than you know your business.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: And I've seen it at firsthand personally.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: So I think that it's just because it's an easy target because it will be paid out quickly.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And easy because the money is easier than going after some of these other larger industries that can basically put the middle finger up and tell people to know we're not going to do what you want because we're fine, we can keep going.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Where, like I said, food and agriculture has those biological constraints.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And then you have to be able to prove that your food is safe, and you can't do that if your production line is stopped for whatever reason for X amount of time.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: That's why food and agriculture is getting attacked more often.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: Also, the dawn of time.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: Whenever we've gone to war as a world, the first thing we go after is food and agriculture.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: We've seen that in the Ukraine war, we've seen that in other places.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: You can look it up in the history books, that's where we go first.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: So it's not an unheard of sector to attack, but it feels viscerally more intimate and violated when it happens.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Even a food production plant that you don't even have anything to do with as a person, when you hear that gets hit, there's something inside of you that feels attacked personally.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: My chips were attacked.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: I cannot get my bag of chips or whatever is happening.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: You feel a different kind of pressure.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: It's an emotional reaction.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: So food and agriculture, because that emotional aspect of it from consumer to producer, it also forces action quicker.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: So that's again, that's why they're being hit.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: And so that's even different from other manufacturing industries like automotive or would you care if an automotive facility is attacked unless it directly affected your paycheck or your family?
9:43
SPEAKER_01: No.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: But when food gets hit, you feel something.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: You that uh you're like, oh no, that's not good.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Or that brand name sticks in your head forever, like boars head, even though that wasn't a cyber attack.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: You would see a sign for boarshead and your stomach turns over if you know about that situation.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Same with Peanut Corporation of America, kind of vibes.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a different feeling.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Or if an animal facility was interrupted in the production, you would feel something for that.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Like JBS was really super bad on so many levels.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Animal welfare, safety, food safety, distribution, production, employee safety, the whole thing.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Every every domino went down on that one, all because of that ransomware.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think the attackers knew that.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Be real.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: And so when you walk into a manufacturing facility, what are some of the things that you see like right off the bat that contribute to cybersecurity issues or cybersecurity weaknesses?
10:39
SPEAKER_01: People in process.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna be super specific because again, I don't want to fuel attackers, but I will be vague.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that how people and work around processes that are around security controls are usually the problem.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Technology is not the problem, right?
10:55
SPEAKER_01: It's technology is not sentient yet.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna get up and slap you and make you do something.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: I realize that there's robots and all kinds of other fun things like that out there.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: Just everybody calm down.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: This is not quite Star Trek yet.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: But generally speaking, technology is not the problem.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: It's the people working around the tech.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: So circumventing security controls.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: So if you bypass something, or if you share a password, or if you don't have a password, or if you move equipment that you aren't supposed to move, that happens.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: I've seen that many times where maintenance managers will be on scissor lifts moving wireless access points because I bet you didn't know that Wi-Fi signal doesn't go through bags of flour.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: And if you've got a full warehouse, you're screwed because you can't pick on the little movers.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: There's these kinds of things.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have a proper process for your cybersecurity program or for your safety program, which is more what I attach it to, you won't be able to work with the people.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: They will say, too bad, middle finger up, and they'll just move around it, or they'll disable it.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: Can't even tell you how many times I've seen stuff unplugged in server rooms because people are like, it was in my way, I couldn't deal with it.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Why is the firewall unplugged?
12:05
SPEAKER_01: So there's those moments.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: So people and process are always going to be the first things I see inside a facility.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: How people are interacting with the technology that's around them, how do they not interact with the technologies around them?
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Are they sticking to paper in some places and not in others?
12:21
SPEAKER_01: Are they speaking to me in a secure manner?
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Are they talking about cybersecurity as part of their food safety culture?
12:28
SPEAKER_01: If they aren't, then I know that we've got a disconnect.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Because honestly, culture, and I know a lot of people are sick of hearing about culture, this, culture, that.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: It does work if you have a place that is full of food safety culture, that cybersecurity will be encompassing into that as well, because cybersecurity is part of food safety now.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: We have no choice.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: The machines are touching, right?
12:48
SPEAKER_01: So that's it.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: That's what I listen for and watch for.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, I'm always looking at obviously access control, where people are walking, where they shouldn't be walking, those kind of things.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure if you talk to a food safety expert, they'd say something very similar to what I'm saying as well.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: But they'd also be looking for PPE and things like that.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily look for that because you should be wearing your PPE.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: If you were not, oh my God.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: But and then I'll start looking at the machinery and where follow the cable, follow the network cable.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: I play that game all the time.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: If I'm watching a TV show or inside the factory or whatever those shows are, or if I'm inside a factory, I'm following the cables, I'm seeing where they're going.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Is this one connected to the wall?
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Is this one a switch?
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Where are the switches?
13:30
SPEAKER_01: Why is it there?
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Is it in a protected area?
13:32
SPEAKER_01: Those kind of questions come up.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'm looking for in general.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: People in process and then the technology.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't like to get caught on the shiny, as I call it, which's coming off the conveyor belt or whatever's happening.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Don't get me wrong, I think the process of things are really cool the way they're made.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: But once you've seen one thing made, you know how a factory works, it's not as fascinating to me anymore.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'm so sorry because I know that production people don't like me saying that.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: But like I appreciate what you do, but I'm there to make sure you can go home at night and you're not gonna kill anybody at the other end of that food line.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Those are the most important things to me.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so my next question was gonna be about all the shiny, but um, given that you were talking about the people in process, what is something that they how does that get changed?
14:15
SPEAKER_02: How does that culture get fostered to be more resilient or I don't know, responsive toward toward incidents and that and protecting against incidents?
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: I think I call it a sandwich approach, and we're gonna use all the food puns here because why not?
14:32
SPEAKER_01: I call it a sandwich approach.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Your board and executive level need to care, and your plant floor operators and above need to care.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: So it ends up being your middle manager that drives the culture in a way, which is pretty much factual with whatever you're talking about in a company, anyways.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: But your board needs to be informed on cyber physical risks.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: What I mean by cyber physical is things in the digital world that impact the physical world.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: So that means you can push a button on your tablet or phone and it interacts with equipment, or you can visibly see or make changes, as well as go over and be able to push a button or tap on a screen on the actual device itself.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: So I think boards need to be more informed on cyber physical risk.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of the times they're not.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: I think it's more just based on forecast of product and money.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Correct me if I'm wrong.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: Anyone come for me?
15:22
SPEAKER_01: But this is what I see.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Also, you need the executive staff to understand that this is part of the day-to-day business.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: Food safety is part of your business.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: Cybersecurity is part of food safety.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: You need to shove it in there now.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: Now, do it now.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Food defense, same thing.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: These audits that are running for food safety and food defense and anything else that's in between are very similar to cybersecurity audits.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure, you're talking about tech and cyber a little bit more, but you're also asking about how often passwords are changed, how often people get trained.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: You're asking about what equipment is touching food, that kind of stuff.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: So all of that can be wrapped together as one.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: And you really need to drive that culture in that regard.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: The other thing too is having combined meetings.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: And again, I know everybody's gonna roll their eyes and go, if you have a change management board, whether it's IT, cybersecurity, whatever, you need to have someone from your food safe team, your production team, somebody sit there because you don't want them to claim an outage and you don't go knowing what's going on because that's gonna violate the food quality as well as potentially your job.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: So you need to know what's going on at all times.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: There's so many silos inside of these organizations that when you have someone like myself who's a disruptor who runs across all of it, it's very jarring.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm not asking people to run across the silos, but I'm asking people to hang out together and have lunch and understand each other.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: You're all trying to work towards the same goal, trying to make a paycheck, you're trying to make product that's healthy and safe for the most part, and you're trying to make sure everybody goes home at night.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: That's all you care about, which equates to production uptime.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: You're all working towards the same thing.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: So why aren't we all working together?
16:58
SPEAKER_01: So breaking those silos is going to be super important from the top down in that sandwich level, as well as training.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: The compliance training that we get for security annually is garbage.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: Let's be honest.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: It's just the same stuff we've been doing for 35 years.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: What we need to do is sector-specific, role-specific training.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: So if you work as an operator, do you need to understand all the subtle nuances of email security?
17:23
SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: But you do need to know that if you push a button here and you do this, or if you shut the switch off, or if you unplug this particular workstation because you want to plug into this industrial fan to dry the floor instead, true story.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: You would need to know what's going to happen, right?
17:38
SPEAKER_01: You need to understand the consequences of those actions.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Or if you see something, you need to feel safe enough to report it.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So something like the boar's head incident, right?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: You can't tell me that people didn't see that there was stuff wrong and they didn't say anything because they had a culture there that was not indicative of talking.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not about tattling, it's about saying something because it's unsafe.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: This is an unsafe thing.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: I want to report.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: And that means digital world as well.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: If you see something funky that comes up on your screen, you need to say something, but you need to not panic and you to understand what happens.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Most people just shut it off.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: So you kill the forensic evidence.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: You need to stop, take a deep breath, report, and then get it off the internet.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: So as fast or in that kind of order.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Like the stop, drop, and roll thing.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: So the whole training is really about how people are interacting with the tech, how they're interacting with the processes around the technology, and then incorporating that food safety aspect.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to start cutting the fat off of what cybersecurity was, where it's not hackers and hoodies in basements and mom's basement.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Those that those days are over.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: It's the 16-year-old blonde girl in a cafe in Europe who's probably hacking your system.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: It's really that absurd now.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Anybody can pretty much hack, or you can hire someone as a service to hack.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: You can have a SaaS platform to hack.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: So the world has changed and we need to adapt with it.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: And food and agriculture has historically and traditionally stayed very similar.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: We need to allow that diversity of thought, if you will, to come in and start changing how we view it because it's still about production uptime and safety in whatever order that needs to be.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Cybersecurity, cyber physical risk in general is part of that now.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: It has to be.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: And it should have been years back, but here we are.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of the one of the biggest barriers or mental barriers maybe to improving cybersecurity in a plan is that it's going to cost money.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: And but what it sounds like what you're saying right now is that it doesn't necessarily have to cost a lot of money or have to build like all these high-tech barriers to protect your facility.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: No, and I honestly think throwing more tech at this isn't going to be the solution because, like I told you, people can circumvent it.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: They can circumvent controls.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: It's not that hard.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: If they understand the system, especially if they've been there for a bit, they will know how to bypass things very easily.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: So you don't want people bypassing your super expensive tag because they can't do their job.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: That's a stupid reason to have that tech there, right?
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Or you, if you're not going to have it be securing anything if they've circumvented it already.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people see the shiny.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is the one thing they, the silver bullet, this is the one dashboard to rule them all.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: It's a blah, blah, blah.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: That's all great, but there isn't one thing.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: The one thing, though, that helps the most is training your people to recognize something or to understand that this is a problem.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Or how do you work with people when you bring in new tech?
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Because trust me, change is hard, and you know this as well as I do that on the plant floor, they don't like it.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: They don't like change because it's going to interrupt their process and it's not going to make production run any faster.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: I've seen machines that were brought in that said that they could do the job faster than a human being.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: That is such a why.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Human beings are so much faster, you'd be surprised.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: But the nice thing is that some of the tech that's being brought in is there for safety.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: So if you could explain to the workers why this particular cutting line is being put in for the chicken processing plant or poultry processing plant, they understand that you're saving their digits, literally.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: So if you can look at it from that perspective across all food and agriculture, right?
21:18
SPEAKER_01: We're bringing this in because we're trying to keep it safe for you as a worker.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to keep the efficiency there.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to make sure you keep your job, all these things, right?
21:26
SPEAKER_01: It creates a different vibe than we're just putting this in because we're doing it and we're management and bleh.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't work anymore because workers have a choice.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: They don't have to stay at your facility.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: They don't want to if they don't feel safe or comfortable, right?
21:40
SPEAKER_01: And I understand and I respect operators work at some of these facilities because they don't have another choice, and I get that.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: But there's a human aspect to it of culture, training, understanding, empathy for heaven's sakes, like all these things that lead towards uptime and availability.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times that.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: When you thrust this tech onto people and they're not ready for it, that's when the problems are going to start.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: That's when you start creating insider threats.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: That's when you start creating, oh, I can circumvent this and do this or whatever.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: I have been in so many facilities where there were workarounds that were in place by the workers and the security teams had no idea because it was still business as usual and they had no idea that was happening.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: And this is why it's so important for people to get out of their quote ivory towers, their silos, and come down back down to the production floor.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: I personally love being on the production floor.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: I love seeing the processes of how things are working and how they're not working.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: And I the curiosity drives me.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think that is something that's lost a lot, is how it becomes business as usual.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: And we lost the curiosity behind of why we did it or why a company was made.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: A lot of these food companies, you know, this Derek, are were made in mom and pop's kitchen.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: And they lost that feeling.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: And it stinks because then it just becomes this money-making machine where they're pumping out whatever, and because that's what it is now.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: But then you look at some companies that are still have that mom and pop culture vibes, like Tabasco's coming to mind for some reason.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: And for some reason, that company seems to have been insulated from that and has driven through, regardless of the fact that they are the most notable brand of hot sauce, which I find to be really fascinating.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: So, how do we take that and move it forward to keep people from disrupting the tech and not freaking out?
23:31
SPEAKER_01: The training aspect is basically free.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: It's just about time, right?
23:36
SPEAKER_01: You can put people through lunch and lunch, you can give them documentation, you can do all the things you want, but if you don't make it relevant to what their job is, they're not gonna care about it.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: They're not gonna do it, they're not gonna say anything.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have role-specific training and it works because they can take a lot of this home for their families as well to keep internet safe at home, too, believe it or not.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's usually how I spend my training when I've done it at different companies, is you can take this home and you can help the generations that are struggling with it.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Because let's be real, scams are targeting the older generations now and the younger generations.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: It's that middle gap that we are all just like, this is a scam and it's a skeptical scam at all times.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: Everything's a scam.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: We just believe that.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so you can go home and you can have different conversations of how do you keep safe online if you translate your work into your home?
24:25
SPEAKER_01: I guess is what I'll say.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: So that also is an extra added benefit that I've found that really helps out families.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I got an invite, an email invite yesterday, in fact, that I was surprised by is this person sending me an invite from a third party?
24:40
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I you know, you can't check that link.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: You that the link it takes me to might be safe, but then you don't know if it's gonna redirect me to someplace else, and it's not checking that.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, yeah, delete.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: But I think from what I've been hearing, seeing, talking to people, that there are they often say that there's a divide between IT and OT.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Tell me about your thoughts on that.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: So I personally I think at this point, OT IT convergence is a marketing boy.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: But I was IT doing OT and didn't even know it at the food company I worked at.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: And I just knew the production line was down and I needed to fix it.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: That's all I knew.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't see a division of job at that point.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: Not that we had an OT team there, we had a small IT team and an engineering team, and the engineers were there to move the lines and design new lines.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: That was really their function.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: I only came in if there was a drop that needed to be put in or some type of software that needed to be loaded, whatever ended up happening.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: But I was doing OT work in an IT environment.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: And when I got into the OT side, people were like, oh, it's IT versus OT.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what?
25:50
SPEAKER_01: What how does it I did it was like it didn't compute.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I did not understand.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: I still don't understand.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's what's frustrating.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: I think really what it is, you've got the people, like, and then you've got the engineers.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: So you have different thoughts, how you deal with different problems, right?
26:08
SPEAKER_01: It's just it really is that it's just personalities.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: IT tends to be, it can be very isolating and very lonely if you're stuck in a server room, or it can be very people front forward if you're troubleshooting in real time in front of people, or if you're in their house, or again, lots of stories.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: OT tends to be more isolated and more that engineering has a degree, those kind of things, or they learned it on the job because they came up through the ranks.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Same with IT.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: So there's actually a lot of similarities, but there's different ways of going at it, which I actually really love because I think that strengthens the whole sector in general.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: The whole part of bringing people together from different.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm one of those enigmas that came out of both sides.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: So when people find out, oh, you were an IT, I'm like, yeah, but I was also an OT, but I did OT and IT together.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: So I don't understand what the problem is.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: Stop trying to divide me into I don't, we don't need any more division inside of food production.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, we don't.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, obviously stay in your lane if you need to stay in your lane, if you actually have role-specific jobs.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, if there's an internet connection inside of an operational technology, you have the the obligation to understand that operational technology to whatever degree your job and role is, right?
27:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm not expecting the SOC to come down, the Security Operations Center, and understand that particular production line equipment because they don't, but I do expect and understand what an alert looks like isn't an intrusion, it's just an alert because it's changing on the system.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: So it's about balance and the ITOT conversions and this whole marketing ploy around it, and it just it drives me up a wall.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: And then people love to hang on it because they're trying to create that division even more where I don't see that division.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: I see is all we're all still part of food product production and we're all still part of food protection.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: So there's no we're on the same team, we're all playing on the same team.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: So I don't understand the distinction.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm sure people are gonna be all uppity at me about this, and they always are.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: But this is just one more thing we don't need.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: We've got enough problems.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: So why are we creating more on our side?
28:16
SPEAKER_01: We're just giving the attackers more fuel for their little fire over there.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to prescribe to that.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: So talking about the shiny, then, what about how certain aspects of technology, typically in the IT world, are advancing faster than say legacy equipment in the OT world?
28:35
SPEAKER_02: How do we address that?
28:36
SPEAKER_02: What's going on there?
28:38
SPEAKER_01: We address that because it's expensive, right?
28:40
SPEAKER_01: So if you're going to do an upgrade of your ERP system because you're still using a green screen, which I still think is pretty stable.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: And you want to upgrade, you better be prepared to have to upgrade everything else along with it.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: There's usually a couple systems inside of a factory that's one piece of old equipment that only comes up once a quarter, but it's like the most paramount device in the whole in the whole system, and it cannot be upgraded because the OEM is no longer exists or doesn't support and it's 30 years old, but it's fine.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: You just don't touch the dust on it because you know it's part of the whole system now and you let it be.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: You don't touch that because to upgrade it or to change it out or to readjust the whole system itself, you means you'd have to probably change the whole network that it runs on that side, at least, or the whole production process.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: To change and do that is so tedious and slow, and you have to have maintenance hours and you have to shut the factory down, and that doesn't happen necessarily.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Or if it happens twice a year, it's not gonna be for that.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be for flower mite bombing or I don't know, whatever, whatever needs to be done.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: But to me, the legacy equipment is fine.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Keep it as long as you can run it, why not?
29:51
SPEAKER_01: But you need to have security controls around it that protect it.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: So that means you need to isolate it.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: So that means it needs to be on its own little section, its own little room, essentially, if you will, in the digital space that is monitored.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: That's all you need to do.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: The other problem, too, is that this legacy equipment wasn't made for the internet.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: It literally wasn't made for the internet.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: It was made pre-internet.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't understand it.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: It's like trying to speak Japanese to a Russian.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like it doesn't understand.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: So there's these little devices that tend to make the translation for you.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Those need to be protected.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Because I can't even tell you how many times I've seen those little devices just chilling on their own, like and just not where they should be and not being monitored properly.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: Those little devices can be hacked.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: It's whatever.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: But the other thing, too, is if you don't need it on the internet, don't put it on the internet.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: If it doesn't need to be connected, don't connect it.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: What's the point?
30:42
SPEAKER_01: If it's something that doesn't need to be there, it doesn't need to be there.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: We often say that as OT and IT.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: If it doesn't need the internet, then why?
30:51
SPEAKER_01: Because you need it for what reason?
30:53
SPEAKER_01: It's like people connecting their historians up to the internet as well.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Whoa, why do you what why do you need that?
30:59
SPEAKER_01: That's not necessarily something you need like to do.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: So the business case and reason needs to be validated, not only from a financial perspective, but from a security perspective and from a safety perspective.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not safe to put that machine up there.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: That could be, it could be really dangerous if that particular machine shut down the wrong way and somebody got trapped or injured.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of factors that go into this.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: As far as throwing new tech into the process, the production process, I'm fine with it as long as you have the right security controls around it and the right reasoning.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: If you're just buying it because it's what the cool kids do, that's not the reason.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: If you're buying it because it's going to keep employees safe and your production up time moving and food safer, fine.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Have at it.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead and put it on.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: But you have to own the cost of that device.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: What I mean by that is these devices are not made securely.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: There's no security by design on those devices.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: So you have to have security around those devices if they are attached to the internet.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: That's what bothers me is people assume that the device, because of the cost and the time that it takes to put it in, are automatically secure.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: No, ag tech is not secure.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: It's not built with security in mind.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: That's down to the board of the actual device itself.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: So being educated about this, being informed, not going by the first vendor who's your buddy that you knew because they married your second cousin, don't do that.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: That's the kind of thing that I get stressed about.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: There's so many salespeople coming at you.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: There's so much stuff happening.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: There's so much new tech, there's so much AI, there's so much this, there's so much that.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Does it work for your business?
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Does it work for your people?
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Does it work for your culture?
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Does it work for your technology environment?
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Does it work?
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Does it work?
32:39
SPEAKER_01: That's the thing you need to know and understand.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: And is it secure?
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Is it safe?
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Those are the things that I think about.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: And if the legacy equipment isn't broken and it's still working your process, just segment it properly on the network for don't connect it at all.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're talking about getting equipment that isn't automatically protected if you buy a new router.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: There's if you don't change that password, people have access to that immediately because the standard password's available, right?
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think a lot of people skip over the instructions of change the default password.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And also stop putting printers on your network for heaven's sakes.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Printers are like the biggest, like, hi, welcome, Matt, ever.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: I can't even tell you how many times I've cracked into factories because they had a printer that was on the network and it was the default password.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Because you can pull that up on the internet.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Pull up just about every manual of everything on the internet and it has the default password inside it, or it will tell you how to set it back.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: So don't kid yourself.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: I have access to that.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: So do the bad actors, right?
33:39
SPEAKER_01: The criminals have access to that too.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm at least doing it to tell you that it's happening if I'm working for your company, but they're not, they don't care.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: And they'll damage your stuff as they go through as well.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what people forget too is if one thing is hacked, what breaks on the other end too, right?
33:55
SPEAKER_01: How much the dominoes fall?
33:57
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of things are on flat networks.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: There's not any type of segmentation that makes it difficult for people to move across your company.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: I've seen the flat networks in so many places.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: It's amazing how it's the one thing that is predominant throughout most of the factories and production facilities I'm in because it's easy and it's cheap and you can move things quicker, right?
34:18
SPEAKER_01: I understand why, because people process.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: But you need to make it harder for these hackers.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: You need to make it harder for them to do it.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Don't be an target that's quick and easy for them.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: You need to make them work for it, at least on some aspects.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: If you ever came down to being hacked and ransomware or an attack of some sort, you can at least be like, I hope it was really hard for you to do what you did.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: But I'm not, and then you can fight for your negotiations or whatever.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard because there's so much fun, shiny tech that's out there.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: You go to the conferences, you walk the production export floors, you do all these things.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: This is so cool.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: This is da da da.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Take an operator, production operator with you.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: And they'll tell you if it's cool and it's gonna work.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: I think that I think production managers and production directors, they're gonna tell you straight out if it's gonna work or not.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's where your investment needs to be.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Or why does it need to be there?
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe your investment needs to be in better sourcing of ingredients before you go out and buy more tech.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: It's just there's a lot of factors in this, unfortunately.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, talking about speaking Japanese to a Russian, I did once try to speak Czech to a German Border Patrol agent after handing him my American passport.
35:26
SPEAKER_02: So that was a very confusing situation.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: I think that would be very confusing.
35:31
SPEAKER_02: We're running out of time here.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: So I'll ask, looking ahead, what do you see in the future in terms of emerging technologies?
35:36
SPEAKER_02: I know everybody's talking about AI this, AI that.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: How do you see that impacting the industry?
35:42
SPEAKER_02: And what's one thing that you would share with anybody moving ahead looking to improve their cybersecurity A awareness or defenses?
35:50
SPEAKER_02: What should they do?
35:52
SPEAKER_01: So I'm probably gonna give an answer that's not expected, but I think everybody needs to go back to basics.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: So, what I mean is the same problems that have been exploited for 30 years are still being exploited today, which is stupid.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: We should be having weird problems, not the same old, right?
36:11
SPEAKER_01: I think that the fact that we still struggle with access, security, access in general, access between buildings, between peanut and non-peanut areas is an example.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: I think the fact that we don't treat our employees really well and give them the tools they need to do their job effectively and feel comfortable and safe is also something that should be addressed.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: We've got way too many examples right now between people starting fires and contaminants and cleaning and all kinds of other things for me not to acknowledge the fact that insider threat is a big problem.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: The majority of the hackers that get into your facilities are done via email, right?
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Or some type of access in, whether that's a trick of a text or a phone call to your IT department's help desk.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: This is people problems, right?
36:59
SPEAKER_01: Or should I say people opportunities.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: It's something that can be addressed by dealing with your the culture of your facility and your staff.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: The problem is that the more tech you throw at it, the more complicated it's gonna get.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think if we go back to basics, as we bring in all this cool emerging tech and greenhouses and space or whatever we're doing, it will be a little bit better and a little bit safer in the long run.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: The idea is not to quote prevent an attack, because it's gonna happen regardless.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: We're at this stage now in security and technology where attacks are common and they're gonna continue to happen.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: What I want people to do is be able to stay resilient through them, keep your production moving, keep your employees safe, and keep them employed.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Because what you don't want is insider threat that burns your building down or gets on the roof and starts shooting people, or have feminine forbid starts selling off your credentials, or keeping access to an app and then releasing chemicals into your production environment that's gonna potentially affect the workers, not only that, but the product going out, or being able to shut alarms off and not tell you when there's a problem.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: These are all cases I've that are in the media that you can look up yourself.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: And I don't want that.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: So to me, going back to basics and understanding how you can train people through emerging tech is most important.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: AI, hooray, it's here.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: We've it's been here for a while in the food and agricultural industry.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: We've had machine learning for a very long time.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: It's not something that's abnormal for us, to be honest.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: But what I think is happening is the marketing machine is twirling and it's becoming more complicated, and people are getting more freaked out because the curiosity is gone and the educational piece is gone.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: People are not learning.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: So whether that means you have to do 30-second videos, or you roll it into a brief every morning, or you do do whatever you've got to do to get people to feel confident and safe working with the technology that's around them and understanding what could happen if that tech failed, whether it's in the digital space or physically in front of them, is really super important.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: And then you can bring in all the cool tech and bells and whistles and drones and whatever the else you want in your facility.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: But I think it really does go back to you need to start where it's most effective, which is your people.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's the least cost effective.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: It's the least cost, you can don't have to pay a ton for that either, which is really awesome because nobody wants to put any more money out because I know everybody's super forecasted.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: And but if you can have people sit down together and have conversations and learn, that to me is the win.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: And I want you to be resilient through the face of a cyber attack.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't want you to have to send people home or have a safety incident.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine if if a cyber incident caused a foodborne illness or an environmental disaster because of a food facility, or it caused the shutdown of a facility that was so predominant for the whole region in terms of employment?
40:04
SPEAKER_01: That that's what keeps me up and that's what keeps me here because that's the stuff that I want to prevent, or at least mitigate to the point where it's not even a problem.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: It will be like a little blip in the road.
40:15
SPEAKER_01: That's the thing that scares me.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: And if you talk to food safety and food defense, they'll say the same thing.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: Now that cybercrime is part of their world, they're terrified that this is going to affect lives on a whole other level.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: So don't be that company that starts that trend, I guess is what I'm saying.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the insight, Kristen.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: Really appreciate it.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Through the Line Packaging and Processing.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: You can listen to more episodes on all streaming platforms.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Be sure to visit us at packworld.com, profoodworld.com, and healthcarepackaging.com for more packaging and processing news.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: This podcast was edited by Bree Guns.