Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | E7 Jess Camburn-Rahmani on building charities and leading with humility
Transcript
- Adam Stacey: I'm really pleased to have Jess on the Charity Changemakers podcast today. Thanks so much for joining us. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: ⁓ my pleasure to be here. Thanks, Adam. Adam Stacey: That's great, good. I say this every time I record a podcast, I can never do justice to an introduction. So I always like to hand over that responsibility to the guests. So Jess, if you can just take a minute or so just to introduce who you are, what you do and yeah, where you work. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Thanks. I'm Jess Cameron. I'm the chief exec at an incredible organisation called Cerebra. And we work to support children and families across the UK with brain conditions. I live in Wales. It's very sunny today, which is lovely, unusual. Yeah. And I'm a mum with three young girls as well, which is a big part of my job description to balance all of that. Adam Stacey: Yes, absolutely. And clearly some house renovations as well going on at the same time, so quite a lot to juggle by the looks of it. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Eternal hash renovations going on, feels like, yeah, so apologies for the background, but yeah, I like to keep life busy. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's brilliant and good and we love the opportunity to get to know our guests at the start of ⁓ the podcast. So we asked the same sort of three quickfire questions to each of our guests. The first one being and also before we get into all of the big stuff and you know, traveling a bit through your career to date. What does a good weekend or a day off look like for you? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: was thinking about this one. a mum of three young girls, the good weekend involves a lion, if ⁓ all possible, which is very rare. ⁓ yeah, so normally Saturdays, I'm just being a taxi service, but I'm working on getting my ideal Sunday becoming a regular thing. So my ideal Sunday would be having a lion to about eight o'clock. That's really luxury for me. And then I live an incredible... Valley in Wales. So I like to go out with my dog up a hill. They call it a mountain. It's not really a mountain, but a hill. We go for a run. And then we come back and we do something with the girls called special Sunday breakfasts. And we normally have pancakes and chill out and enjoy time together. And then going off together and doing something like going to the beach or going swimming or whatever the weather, whoever it is like. So tie for myself to, you know, relax and recuperate. And then time with the family is my ideal weekend. Adam Stacey: Absolutely. And when you live in the type of area that you do, like the opportunity to get outside, it sounds like that's a really important part of ⁓ that relaxation for you and the whole family. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Absolutely, being outside, especially when you spend so much of your day in the week at a screen, I love any opportunity to be outside in nature, whatever the weather. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And what's something small that brings you just a disproportionate amount of joy? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: I love all sorts of creepy crawlies and bugs. So, and it's something my mother gave me, she was a biologist and would always instil in me whenever we went out in the garden to look at the beetles and look at the spiders and be fascinated by that. if I'm out in nature and I see a spider web that's covered in dew, I love that sort of thing. It gives me real thrill. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's brilliant. Good. And this is the continuation theme of outdoors and nature, is lovely as well. So that's great. ⁓ love this question. What's one thing that people always assume about your job that just isn't true? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah. question hard, Adam. I think I don't know what people assume about my job. And I was trying to ask a people, what do you assume about my job? And they didn't give me anything particularly clear. But I think the thing that probably makes me a little bit in my earlier career, a bit more nervous was that when you're in a CEO role, people assume that you're the expert or I thought people assumed that you're the expert. And you really never are the expert. You have the experts in your team, and you're the coordinator of the experts, but you're never really the expert in the area of work that you're leading, I don't think. So I think that's probably the thing I would say is it's okay not to be the expert. Actually, your job is not to be the expert. Your job is support the experts that are in your team. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I suspect a bit of that might come out in the conversation that we have from later in the in the podcast. So yeah, that's great. Thank you for answering those. It's great to get to know you a little bit better. And again, I've said this before on the podcast, I love these types of podcasts where, ⁓ you know, apart from a quick sort of 10 minute conversation, ⁓ probably five months ago, we don't really know each other. So it's gonna be really interesting to see where we go in the conversation, but also to pick a little bit about Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Hahaha Yeah Adam Stacey: your journey to the role that you're in now and the organisation that you're working for. And again, this always feels like a big question or I guess probably potentially a lot to unpack. how did that first opportunity in the charity sector, how did you find yourself working in the charity sector? How did it start for you? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Mmm. Wow, I always wanted to work, I think, in international development from when I was young. My mum did VSO and I used to look at a kid at her pictures. She worked in Zambia and was just fascinated by what she did. And I was incredibly lucky. I studied anthropology at university and VSO launched a new program called Youthful Development. And the ethos of that was that you took a year out of university and you went to train with local NGOs, so NGOs that are working, you know, not international NGOs, but NGOs from a country that are working and you went to train with them. So I went to Uganda and worked for an incredible little NGO that was supporting indigenous people in the rainforest who were being ⁓ very badly against. And I just so much from it. And it set off that ethos of, again, never being the ⁓ but thinking about what role can do. So that was my very first opportunity and then after finishing university, went into community development in Swansea, ⁓ in the Swansea Local Authority. So those are my first two roles. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. don't think I should be surprised anymore. The number of conversations that we've now, I mean, we've done nearly 40 podcasts. I don't know how many people have talked about, I guess, ⁓ overseas, but just the difference that ⁓ going and having that experience, and quite often people have talked about South America or Africa or Asia, going and spending time as a teenager or young adult, ⁓ just ⁓ huge impact that that has had. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: haha Yeah. Mm. Adam Stacey: on them and their reflections on that as you know they think about their career but how that's opened their eyes to opportunities serve in the charity sector. think it's fascinating how those programs can have such an impact from a young age. ⁓ Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah, and I think there are good and bad examples of them. And I think the VSO program was quite unique in that it instills humility from the outset. think there are a lot of programs where, you looking back ⁓ can quite troubling in terms of ⁓ sending people out with very little qualifications to do jobs which local people are very qualified to do themselves. ⁓ And the ⁓ VSO was, you know, was excellent at was saying you are not an expert, you are a trainee and you're going to be trained by the people who run the organisation. And I think that humility is really important. And it's a question I've struggled with a lot. I have had my initial career was in international development and humanitarian work. And, you know, I think working out what's an appropriate ethical role for someone from the UK, when you're working overseas has been a, you know, a constant point of reflection and thought as my career has developed and getting it right. think it's, you know, we still have many faults in the international development world. We still got lots of questions to ask ourselves and... I think the shift is becoming more more ⁓ powerful in terms of ⁓ shift to local leadership and really listening, but we haven't completed that process yet. Adam Stacey: I guess that ties in a little bit with a lot of these international development organisations, 20, 30 years get off with these kind of gap year programmes, didn't they? And you don't see quite so many of those now. And I guess there's less of that sending ethos, but like you say, working on the ground with local partners and supporting development in that way as well. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean, think it's always great for the people going, but I think you have to ask what's the cost and what and how is that experience for the people receiving all of us, you know, and I think when you can get that equitable partnership, you know, and where you can find roles that complement each other and really support each other and recognizing that the value goes both ways, that's when you've got that sweet spot, I think. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, like I say, I've just found it fascinating that the impact that overseas experience can have though, and then, you know, reflecting on the number of conversations that are then have with people that are then, you know, dedicated 10, 15, 20, 30 years, in some cases to the charity sector from that from that one experience. So, so from there, Finnish University, then a role in Swansea, say? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah, it was quite a random roll. think people were quite surprised that I took it. because I spent, I did a Scottish degree, which is a four year degree, and I took E-Right to do the VSO in between. So I've been sort of five years training and learning, and I thought I need to get a job as soon as I finish. I need to have a job. And VSO did this thing where they sent out sort of job opportunities from across the country. And they sent one which had a job in Swansea, but it was policy work. was about environmental policy. And that's not really me. But then underneath it, had a little job called Community Parks Development. I thought, well, that looks interesting. I love being outdoors, as you know, and yeah, it's a development role, working with communities, and that's sort of what I trained in. So I applied, and I think when I turned up for the interview, they were quite surprised because everyone else in the interview was from Swansea, and I come down from Edinburgh. And most of them, you know, were working in the parks already. But it was a brilliant job. I loved it. There was a lot of space for creativity. We were working to get... children and local communities much more actively involved in managing the parks that are across Swansea. We worked with the beaches as well, so it was just beautiful. We got surfing programs going with young people who hadn't experienced surfing before. I was running Tai Chi classes in the parks, but it was great fun and a brilliant first job for me. Adam Stacey: those types of jobs, yeah, where it's sort of, guess, roll, roll his sleeves up really hands on throwing you into a whole bunch of different experiences. And yeah, trying to draw, draw, like I said, lots of different communities and people together are really exciting. So yeah, start starter roles in that sense, and gives, gives quite a breadth to growing your experience as well. So what came what came next? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah. Working as I decided to do a master's at Swansea in development management with health. then I saw a role with Save the Children UK, which is working on getting young people who were, it was called a Turn the Rights Program. So young people who are kind of on the outskirts, not very included in mainstream society to help them to access their rights more. And I was a mentor in that program. So I got that role and that was fantastic. And I love working with young people in the care system who are leaving care, young people with disabilities. young carers who had very heavy caring roles. It was a fantastic experience, often challenging. Again, know, children have children, young people have really challenging circumstances, but a lot of creativity and energy. I ⁓ kind of I thrive on that. So I love that. And then I was really lucky that Save the Children at the time that I was working on that program that they needed to invest more in their internal capacity for humanitarian response. So they had greater surge capacity. It was on the back of we'd had the kind of massive Asian tsunami in 2004 and then we had the Kashmiri earthquake. So I think we were reading from these kind of very, very large disasters and the Save the Children felt they needed to have more people on standby that they could call on if needed. So they put out a call, it was called the Emergency Operations Programme, they designed a year long training programme and they recruited people from across the UK working either in the International Office or fundraising roles, communication roles, but also across the different offices. And it just looked ideal for me because I was quite keen to get back into a role in the international space. I'd always been interested in the humanitarian response. So we did a year of training. was fun. It was quite brutal. They took us off to be trained by the army at Otterburn up in Yorkshire, you know, in the middle of December with very little food, a very cold experience. yeah, it was a beautifully designed course. at the end of that then, we sort of did a bit of self-reflection and they reflected on who they felt had the right attributes to go into response. So that was then after that, I stayed in my role in Wales, but then I was deployed a few times into the response. So went to Afghanistan, went to Myanmar. that was ⁓ really kind of pivotal point, I think, for me. And then I realized that I really did love working in the humanitarian space. But after doing a few longer responses, I felt I also wanted to have a family, you know, and that life didn't really fit very well. So I was looking for something which could connect me to doing supporting humanitarian work, but also allow me to have my life in Wales. And I was really, I mean, I think a lot of roles, it's luck and circumstance. And this little job offer came up, which was project that Save the Children had won funding for to look at how. Universities in the UK could coordinate more effectively with humanitarian organizations. And they're all said it was looking for a project manager to manage the grant and the program. And it could be done from London office or home base. So thought, ah, that's that's the one for me. So I applied for that and I was very lucky and I got it. And that led to the kind of project, then became the organisation I built called Elra, which is a, you know, it's been incredible. Sixteen years of my life building a building a new organisation. Yeah. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And we're really interested, obviously, to hear more about Elra and that journey and what that looked like. To build something and spend so much time of 16 years or so building that. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Mm. Adam Stacey: Brian, I can't even begin to think about all the challenges and opportunities and hardships and exciting wins that you'll have gone through in that whole process. So what did that transition look like to begin with in to forming something new? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: It was, looking back, it had a logic and an evolution. When you're in it, you're just trying to think about how do I make this an impactful, successful grant program to start with and how do I build staff that can have the right capabilities. So the first two years, it was really managing a project grant. We had quarter of a million for two years to look at funding different projects that could give a sense of an effective role for UK universities working with humanitarian organizations. I think... ELRA became an organisation that's focused on, it wasn't focused only on the UK, it focused on where can science and academia really have value to humanitarian response. And we became very global in the work that we did. We invest a lot in research funding, international programs, and we invest a lot in innovation, we worked at was two roles that science academia could really have value within. But when started, I think the key to our success was that, say, the children We're very happy for us to work on behalf of the wider sector, not just to look at what Safe Children offered. So we put together a steering committee that was 50 % humanitarian organizations and 50 % academic organizations. And we had two co-chairs. So one chair was academic, one chair was humanitarian. And from the outset, decided that, however we funded and built programs, both sides had to see the value in it. that, I think that was the key to our success so that... ⁓ it wasn't extractive, it was mutually supportive. yeah, and I loved the networks that both communities brought. ⁓ were so different from each other. You you got the classic idea of the humanitarian quick decisions need results need impact very fast, you know, can't wait three years for research people to come out and then wait for those, you know, outcomes. And then ⁓ academics, know, rigor. Riga being careful and be questioning outputs before you go. So they had very different cultures, but actually we found a lot that we could work together in partnership. And Elrogros, so when I started it, was just me managing a grant. ⁓ By the end of 16 years, we had over 40 staff and we were funding, ⁓ had over lifetime funded about 40 million pounds worth of funding over the lifetime of the program. So it grew very rapidly. And that was all through the power of the networks that we were able to kind of ⁓ bring together. So was really exciting and I met so many incredible people, worked with so many incredible people, which was such a privilege. Yeah. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, indeed an incredible growth over like you say, a space of time. do you think? I mean, obviously, there's that you're in the deep end and having to do it. ⁓ do think there were things that were helping you shape your leadership style and your approach to ⁓ obviously an organisation and growing an organisation? What it that was helping you, know, supporting you in that ⁓ in that at that time? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah, I mean, it's all people around you that kind of I think steering committee and having ⁓ knowledge and expertise in there was really important. People that could be sounding boards and give good advice. That really important. ⁓ Save Children was at the time when we building it, quite an entrepreneurial organisation. We were keen to incubate initiatives. The head of the department, Gareth Owen, you know, really was championing work that I was doing and others were doing, you know, really was behind it. So that kind of having a high up support and champion, know, someone championing what you're doing really helped. were times ⁓ the organisation grew, yeah, we had such, we had a lot of ⁓ there were moments where I had three kids during those 16 years that I was building the organisation. And there were moments when you have to step out and you feel a bit scared that is it going to be all right, you know, when I'm out and someone else is leading it. And I there, there've been a few... really strong women who have given me the backup and the support to say, no, it's fine, we've got it. You'll be fine when you come back in and you need to find the right balance for you that you can lead. And it doesn't require a lot of sacrifice of being a mother in order to do this role. And I think if people hadn't backed me in those early years, I might have stepped away from being the leader that I wanted to be. I it a lot now. And I remember after My first experience with having my eldest daughter Samara, there's an 18 months. I think this is, I think this is a thing, but I don't know. I've tested a few people. Like you've been offering much actually for a year and you come back and then there's an point about 18 months where you have a real wobble, where you feel that, I think it's maybe a child development stage. You feel that you're sacrificing too much, you know, and your child's missing you, but then you're not doing a job well enough. And it's a real kind of moment of, I've got to make a change here. I can't do it. Should I stop working? And I think I remember very much, I phoned up my chair of the board, an incredible lady called Wendy Fenton in tears, just saying, I can't do it. It's not fair. You know, that's not fair. My daughter, I'm not, she was very ill at the time. I'm not being a good mother. And she was very calm saying, well, that's what we're here for. You know, yes, you can do it. It's okay to take time, you know, and she didn't let me step away, but she very kindly supported me in that phase. And I've always remembered that, that, you know, when, parents are going through that experience and I've looked for it when people come back to work. sometimes you just need to step up and give a bit more support for a period so people can come back into their role. And Wendy was just wonderful in doing that for me. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And doesn't every chief executive need a chair exactly like that, right? You can see difference and just how important that relationship ⁓ is. And the fact that you have the confidence to be able to, ⁓ a moment of feeling low, to be able to pick up the phone and have that conversation is ⁓ to just how important that relationship ⁓ Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah. Adam Stacey: And ⁓ do you think that relationship with ⁓ board then ⁓ clearly has been key ⁓ part, know, was a key part to growth of the organisation as well? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah, I mean, think having a really solid board is something that I think is often valued enough. And I have always had brilliant boards. I've had such provision having brilliant boards, both in Elrha and now in Cerebra. ⁓ ⁓ think when you are, when you have a board that really is behind what you do, ⁓ prepared to challenge you, but it really has got your back and is with you. It's a joy. You feel very supported. And always had just... brilliant people with expertise that they're willing to offer you. you don't, think boards when they don't serve an organisation well, it's when they become a bit of a rubber stamp where they just receive documents and they rubber stamp them through and you don't get the value out of the board. It's not enjoyable for them and it's not enjoyable for you and you don't feel that support. So I'm really invested in putting time into working with a board of trustees to make sure that they have what they need to do their job well and they enjoy their role. but also then you get that back in terms of being supported and guided in the right way. It's really, important. Yeah. Adam Stacey: I don't mean to, you know, scoot over 16 years in an organisation, but can imagine that it's really hard to either that decision to move on or to make that transition. ⁓ When built something and been so involved and like you say, you know, just, you know, seeing something grow. Yeah, what brought that change ⁓ for you? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Hmm. I always was, really hard to say this is the right moment. There's never the right moment, ⁓ I was always wary that an organisation can become, I know, it can become affected by founder syndrome. know, nothing can be done without the founder's decision-making. They become too critical or to an organisation. I don't think ever was that in Elra, but I was aware that, you know, I could end up being a hamper when actually the organisation is ready to have a new leadership and, know, bring in new skills and expertise. So that was one. ⁓ So I think after I got past 10 years, it was always in my mind thinking, I've got to find the right moment where I move on from Elra. And then ⁓ sadly, so I lost my mum ⁓ breast cancer about five years before I left the organisation. And then the year before, ⁓ my died very suddenly. ⁓ So took a month off and I was just reflecting on, you know, ⁓ I guess the balance of my life that I had sort of, again, you know, very busy family life. I had to travel a lot from for my work. Work was intense and we were dealing with a lot of challenges. And I had that moment, but it was a bit different from the earlier moment where I felt like I am, I able to do everything as well as I want to do. I want to be a good mom and I want to be a present mom. I want to give my all to an organisation which is dealing with many challenges. And I felt that I had to make a choice that was was right for me but also for the organisation. So I took that decision and worked for my chair. We had a long process of, you know, she knew but then we took a while before we decided that we were going to announce and then recruit my successor. was a very difficult decision but it did feel definitely the right decision to make ⁓ me and for the organisation and nice to leave when it's a positive time, you know, as well. It's nice to leave. ⁓ in a good place rather than feel that you're yeah, leaving where you're not particularly valued. And then I saw a role come up. So I was looking for a role and I saw a role coming up with Cerebra in Wales. And it just really connected to me that I felt that, here's an organisation that's at a certain point in its evolution, 25 years now, so was 23 years old when I joined it, really brilliant programs, but so much more potential that it could grow. It was really attractive to me ⁓ a challenge. So yeah, I was lucky that I went for it and was off the roll. Yeah. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yeah, indeed in that right time. But yeah, I think like you say, you're from founding to growing, to have that emotional intelligence, thing, well, I think, you know, this is the right time and right for the organisation as well, can absolutely can be a challenge for people that have been involved. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it's hard because then obviously we didn't see, didn't see all the funding cuts and international development aid coming as severely as we thought. ⁓ you leave, I also felt this huge guilt. We obviously had all the ⁓ of unfolding crisis with Gaza, with now, know, ⁓ mega everywhere. ⁓ So you feel this ⁓ huge that you stepped out at probably the most challenging time in humanitarian community has ever faced with the funding being just ripped out of system, huge job cuts coming, know, challenge and not being able to meet humanitarian need. So we didn't see that coming. I didn't know that was going to happen. But you do live that thinking, ⁓ my goodness, and my poor success has had to lead Elra and she's lead it very well through that process. yeah, you do feel that a residual guilt, but you can't see the future. yeah, but I also think because a new leader came in. Adam Stacey: That's right. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: would have very hard for me to have, I would have carried a lot of, it would have cost me a lot to lead the organism through that very difficult time, so you know the right things happen sometimes for the right reasons. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Big, big, big believer in that. Yeah, right, right timing. And yeah, and obviously for any organisation, there's always new seasons and you know, the charity sector, you know, know, a sector is international debate, youth organizations, you know, there's, there's, always a challenge on the horizon, ⁓ ⁓ there? So, yeah. ⁓ so, so obviously, you made that move to to to Sareba, tell us a little bit about about the charity about the organisation. ⁓ Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: And. Adam Stacey: And yeah, it'd be lovely to hear a bit more about the charity does. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: I mean, Cerebra is just, it's wonderful. I love it. It's such an incredible charity. it's, it's focused on supporting families with a child who has a brain condition. That could be any neurodivergent condition. So from diastereotism, diastereotism and autism, through to cerebral palsies, through to very complex, multiple or rare diseases or birth injuries. So the full spectrum. And it's always had an ethos that it listens to the families and where they have challenges and builds services and support that are based on what they need. So we have some quite unique programs. We have a, expert sleep service where many neurological conditions affect how a child will sleep. that if you don't get good sleep, ⁓ all parents know, it breaks you if you don't get a good night's sleep, but it, and it also exhausts the potential of that child. So What our sleep team do is they have a very evidence-based approach to what works for particular conditions that we support. Most sleep advice is based on a very neurotypical child. It doesn't work for our community. So they very much support families to help them reestablish a good sleep pattern that works for them. It might look very different from what might work for you and me, but helps the families to get sleep. And then once you've got that foundation, life can just feel a little bit more easy. So one really, really critical piece of our work. We have a legal rights advisory team that help children and families access and advise them on how to access or fight for access for the rights of their child, whether that's for health and social service care or various grants that are available to them. So they deal with some very challenging cases and support families to really make sure that they get services that they need. And then we have a wonderful innovation team who just bring joy to every family that comes to them. They focus on ⁓ A family might come to my child might come to say, I really want to do this, but I can't because of my particular disability. So that might be they might want to go surfing, but there's not a safe surfboard for them. ⁓ they might just want to be able to participate in gaming with their friends, but the gaming controllers don't work for them. ⁓ our design team will work with the child and family say, well, what is it you want to do? And they design these beautiful products ⁓ help children to do anything they want to do. ⁓ it just brings a lot of joy. And then we have a whole lot of, we fund a lot of research as well into ⁓ into kind of the legal landscape and where legal rights are being denied to our community, but also into particular conditions or interventions that will help our community as well. We produce a lot of research and information and advice. We've just launched a podcast, not a challenge to yours, a very different objective, but it's wonderful for our community, ⁓ kind helping them connect with each other and share experiences about ⁓ the of bringing up, ⁓ and joys of bringing up children with neurological conditions. So it's a very busy, broad range of work that we have. We also have a library that out toys and books to communities that we know what we have. We work across the UK. What we have is really valued and high demand. But what's been fascinating for me is that the organisation, we're quite a small organisation. ⁓ had a head office in Wales, but ⁓ have staff across the UK. The demand is there, a huge demand for our community. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: we haven't got the capacity yet to meet that full scope of need. So what I've been loving to do, really enjoying doing since I've been joined the organisation is thinking about how do we unlock that? How do we find a way to increase our impact, grow our impact, support more families with a sustainable business model knows that we can get the income in to expand the value of our work. ⁓ that's been going really well. doing a lot of work. Adam Stacey: Yes. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: with other people, with our team and with other experts to think about what's the business model that's going to work for these different services? How do we kind of make it a more coherent offer to our community? So I feel like, you know, as when I was happiest in LL, it was when I was in that grow shape space. And I feel like we're back there in Cerebra. We're doing some really exciting work to think about what Cerebra might look like in the future and how we make it happen. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah, and some of the things that you utilized at Elro, you then reutilizing, I guess, at Cereba, because you obviously talked previously about steering committees and and partnership, know, the power of partnership, using same skills, obviously, from an international development sector and transferring them into, obviously, a organisation now. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because I think when I told the people from my world in Elora that I was going to Cerebra, think a lot of people were quite surprised. I it was quite a sideways move. know, it's very different worlds. And I'm not an expert, as I said at the start, in brain conditions or in the disability world. I think that keeps me sharp. I have to learn. I have to really listen. I can't assume that I know anything. And so that's been brilliant for me. And I've been learning. I learn every day about about what's important, what the challenges are, what the issues are, how we can help. But the skills that the ELRA required, not only in growing ELRA, but also the projects we supported. So we did a lot of work supporting innovations to grow in the humanitarian space, thinking about what models, how do you develop this model, how do you scale ⁓ proven concept into something bigger. So a lot of that I could transfer into Cerebra. And was really interesting when I joined Cerebra, they ⁓ They have, we have an incredibly dedicated, talented, knowledgeable team. They'd had very, very low turnover. So staff, you we had less than 1 % staff turnover. So people who stayed with the organisation had such deep knowledge of what was needed. But I think the model and the services hadn't changed much over the years. You know, ⁓ know, it was a standard sort of size of, of, of the community we could reach. And I think ⁓ I, I first joined, was a bit worried thinking, this is going to be... quite a challenging organisation to bring change to that, you know, people are very used to the way of working and might resist change. And I have been absolutely thrilled and overwhelmed by the opposite has been true. Like everyone across the organisation has been really for being ambitious, thinking about how we can do more and grow more. ⁓ so it's been an absolute joy. I really thought I'm going to have ⁓ resistant to a traditional way of working, but not all. And ⁓ one think. is where I'm happiest is where you can work with your team to help them put together the ideas of what's the right growth pathway, bringing in people who I know have the expertise to help us plan that and think that through in terms of the questions we need to ask. But comes from within the organisation. It is not imposed on them. ⁓ ⁓ can feel the excitement within the team for the work that we're doing or planning as well. ⁓ it's really ⁓ ⁓ Adam Stacey: Absolutely. And what do you think of some of those leadership qualities that you have that you can see and still in your team that can help take an organisation on that journey? sometimes we're quite good to get to A to B, but obviously you want to take people with you, which can sometimes slow that down, Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm a glass half full eternal optimist. So I think that that helps. You know, I always think, yeah, we can make this happen and we can be ambitious. I think having that positive belief that it's possible knowing that we've got really good ⁓ that, you know, are needed and ⁓ job is just to find the way to sustain that growth. But yeah, so being positive and believing in a vision is really important. I think hopefully what I don't do is micromanage. really respect the expertise that's in the team and I hope to listen to them and challenge where challenge is helpful, but not to assume that I know best because yeah, I think the job of a good leader is to facilitate what you have and help them to really to lead their own areas of work. And I think something that I'm quite good at. Weird saying quite good. I'm not normally the person that sings my own praises, but. ⁓ I enjoy doing that, would say. ⁓ good contacts ⁓ people, my chair in Cerebro is fantastic, ⁓ ⁓ we have really good conversations, one-to-ones where we could talk through some of the challenges and some of the exciting opportunities. Yeah, I think it's knowing what you have and giving space for that to really shine and giving the opportunity for people to lead in their own areas. Adam Stacey: What does the make-up of Cereba look like? Because obviously you're working nationally, so you've got teams spread all over the place, or have you got a central office? I'm always interested to see how these organisations, where there's a of people, you're instilling that culture on the day-to-day within the organisation. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah I mean culture is so important isn't it? our main staff, main body of staff are based in Wales so historically ⁓ has a head office in Carmarthen although since lockdown and everything changed most people work from home now there is still a head office in Carmarthen where some services are essentially run from there. Our centre is based in Swansea so they are based at University in Swansea. ⁓ We have a new team that joined us in January, which we've supported, who make incredible mini electric powered wheelchairs for young kids to be able to get independence and adapt toys for children with disabilities who can't use normal controls. They're fantastic. They've just joined a team in January. They're based in Tadworth in Surrey. And then apart from that, we have just staff, know, North of England, South of England, across. I work from home mostly. I live in Caerphilly Borough. So I said an hour and a half, two hours to get down to Carmarthen. So yeah, we're a very diverse and spread out team. And I think that can be difficult when you to build a culture which is very connected across an organisation. And that was something that was missing when I first joined. It was quite siloed. The different teams worked very well as teams. knew each other very well, but they were quite siloed between each other. Didn't know each other very well. So mean, those are things you can do as leaders just to address the structural kind of connections that people have. So we've introduced a monthly all staff meeting where we get everyone together and they all have webcams and we can all see each other. And, you know, we just talk about what's going on, but also have presentations from, from staff and aspects of the work after people coming in. We have, set up a, a larger management group. So we structured the leadership function. ⁓ we, we now have the heads of all the functions, whether that's IT, finance, ⁓ or the sleep service for the innovation center. So we have quarterly management group meetings where we take decisions together. We have a whole day together and we learn more about each other's work and we support each other as a peer group. That's been really, really helpful. then a lot of the work I've been doing to think about how we scale our services that gets different teams to work together, to give the chance to really be creative and think things through together. We're now ⁓ on our strategy for the organisation. And again, it's looking at how do we put different parts of the organisation together to think through the future of the organisation so it's not done in a siloed way. But there's more to be done, definitely, and it is always a constant challenge when people are working remotely. How do they feel connected to the whole? And I think that's something that's quite challenging, or something you have to always constantly think of as a leader, that often you have connection to everyone. So you assume that everyone else has connection, but often they don't. They might spend most of the days only talking to one other colleague, and they don't see everyone else. So I think it's really important to... support and reinforce ways that people can get together, whether that's virtually or in person. ⁓ you don't, then you get a breakdown ⁓ the culture of the team. Yeah. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like you say, it's a dilemma for many organisations now as to how they do that with it, know, sort of hybrid remote working and drawing together, but particularly for organisations like yourself, ⁓ you know, from like you say, from fundraising to innovation to, you know, programme delivery. mean, just a huge, huge range of individuals and skills and experiences, but clearly all working together for the same, same mission, same cause. So yeah, bringing that connectedness is so, yeah, so, so important. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: ⁓ Hmm Yeah. Adam Stacey: And if people are hearing about Cereba for the first time, what's the best way to find out, find out more or find ways in which they might be able to support or get involved? Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: ⁓ thank you. That's a nice question to ask. So we have our website. That's probably the first place to go, which is if just put in Cerebra, find it at cerebra.org.uk. We our podcast. you do have a neurodivergent child ⁓ or you someone who does, I really recommend you go and listen to our podcast. It's called The Calm and the Complicated ⁓ on all major podcast platforms, social media channels well, all of that. Yeah, so I mean, think we're quite accessible. If you do need any of our services, the website should direct to them, but also you can just call us and you'll be directed by our team to if you want to talk about innovation that you need, a product or if you need some legal advice, ⁓ do get in contact. really everything's free of charge. We don't charge for any of our services. And yeah, we'd love to hear from you if you think we can help. Yeah. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yes, perfect. that's great. I'm gonna make sure that there's some links through to the website and the podcast as well in the show notes so people can skip through. That's great. It's been great to speak to you, I'm always in asking sort of the same final questions to people that come onto the show to think about. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Yeah, thank you. ⁓ Adam Stacey: know, if you could go back to yourself, I guess, your earlier self at the start of your career, whether you know, whether it's a bit of insight or a piece of advice, something that you've learned along the way that you just think has been so pivotal to your ⁓ progression. Yeah, would be able to pin that down to one thing, a few? I don't know. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: I think about it, you know, when you when you go for a career, you sort of pick up little nuggets, little pebbles of wisdom that you put in your pocket for different people. So there's a few of them. mean, and they might sound like a bit like kind of cliches. I remember having a conversation, especially if this is relevant, I think, for relatively small or growing organizations, that you feel you feel very closely connected to your colleagues. You know, often people say it's like a family. I've had that in ALRA, in ICE, they always like a family and I had that in in Cerebra too, and you do you really value and love your colleagues. And I remember then, my finance manager in Elra says something to me, said, you know, it's really nice ethos, but actually, it troubles me that you're saying this. And I was like, Oh, I've heard that that's why would it not be good to say this like my family? And she goes, she told me she said, Well, you know, you don't say goodbye to your family, you don't you know, you don't fire your family, not that I was ever going to fire anybody. But you know, it's difficult, you need to you need to be okay that people move on. if you're family, there's a lot of guilt about moving on and that's not okay. And it was a real kind of light bulb moment where you're like, yeah, that's so true. So I avoid saying that now, it's like a family, ⁓ caring and having capacity with colleagues is really important, enjoying being together. ⁓ And think particularly for an organisation that there's such commit from the team and staff, it's difficult. think it's that you value career development. But career development cannot always be within the organisation. And I think people feel that if someone moves on, that's a reflection on the organisation. And I'm really trying to do this in Cerebra is actually, I want people to progress in their careers. I don't want people to stay for 10 years, 15 years. I want them to feel that, you know, they can be the best, they can grow and develop, they can deliver brilliant work. But when they move on, that we should celebrate that they've moved on to a role where their career is developing. And that's great. And we should be very happy we've supported people to evolve in their role of us. but also as an opportunity to bring in new blood and fresh blood and that's healthy for an organisation. So I think that's a real challenge for many small organizations that people feel they feel guilty if they leave and that's really not healthy. People should love their work but also develop themselves and prioritize both of that. So that would be one real nugget. Another one, a lady who did my mother and she covered my second daughter. She said to me, we interviewed her and it stuck in me. This is a bit of a cliche, but it still sticks with me. She goes, I asked her what's the best quality of a leader. And she said, a really good leader never takes credit when things go well, gives the credit away, but always takes accountability when things go wrong. And I think that's a really helpful thing just to remind yourself, don't stand in the limelight when your organisation is getting credit. Give it to the staff who've really built that credit, but be there and be solid and back your team when things are difficult and don't point the finger at others. and let them take the blame. And I think that's, you know, it's a great way to think about leadership. You you want to want people to get the credit when they work hard. they definitely need to feel the support of leadership. So there's a few little nuggets. I'm sure I have many more little ones like that. I think the only other one is ⁓ Adam Stacey: It's fun. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: ⁓ I think every, every CEO, every leader has imposter syndrome. And that's fine. It's healthy. You know, I think ⁓ where you feel those moments like I have no idea what I'm doing. when you use your network. I think every, every CEO, every leader has imposter syndrome. And that's fine. It's healthy. You know, I think ⁓ where you feel those moments like I have no idea what I'm doing. That's you use your network. and networks and being connected to people who care and can see you from a different perspective is really reinforcing to keep you in a good place as a leader. I think imposter syndrome is not something to you, it's something to attract knowledge but then allow other people to hold you ⁓ tell you what they see as well. and networks and being connected to people who care and can see you from a different perspective is really reinforcing to keep you in a good place as a leader. I think imposter syndrome is not something to you, it's something to attract knowledge but then allow other people to hold you ⁓ tell you what they see as well. Adam Stacey: Yeah, indeed. And I guess that's been a bit of a theme of the conversation really, isn't it? That power of peer-to-peer support, the power of partnership of people being alongside that have helped support you through your career journey and obviously the growth of the organisations that ⁓ you've led and been involved in. So, that's brilliant and really grateful for your insights, Jess. I've ⁓ enjoyed the conversation. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: ⁓ thank you. really enjoyed it too. I do apologize. I don't normally sound this husky, but I've had a horrible, horrible UK cold, but yeah. Thank you. I'm glad it held out for the hour. Yeah. Adam Stacey: Yes, absolutely held out to the end. So, no, that's absolutely brilliant. And yeah, like I say, we'll make sure that you're tagged and all the right links are in the show notes. And if people want to reach out, they know the route that they're able to do it. And yeah, look forward to seeing how things continue to develop and grow at Cereba. Jessica Camburn-Rahmani: Thank you so much. Thank you.