Latest / Real Investor Radio Podcast / Mini Breakdown | Is the FHA’s 90-Day Flipping Rule Finally Going Away?

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Mini Breakdown | Is the FHA’s 90-Day Flipping Rule Finally Going Away? · Real Investor Radio Podcast

• Craig Fuhr (00:00) Hey, welcome back everyone to Real Investor Radio. It's one of two podcasts that I co-host with the great Jack BeVier. We also do forked.ai with our good friend Dave Moses. Jack has been out to sea, like literally lost in the wilderness. And it's so good to see you back, sir. Like I've missed you. And ⁓ yeah, man, it's good to see you. Jack BeVier (00:22) Yeah, absolutely. I was I have a I bought a sailboat a couple years ago and I had the genius idea of taking it down the intercoastal waterway last dec last November and it was an adventure and I learned a ton. And then four months later, I gotta bring her back up. So me and my wife and a gentleman that I hired to help us take it down, that was the delivery crew down in November. But then for the trip back up. Craig Fuhr (00:50) Yeah. Jack BeVier (00:53) I couldn't get any help other than a good friend of mine, ⁓ Race, who ⁓ is just game for anything and had literally never even seen the boat before. And he I talked him into hopping on an airplane, flying down to Jacksonville. We took an Uber to St. Augustine, got in the boat at and left at six o'clock on a Friday. We spent the next two days. We spent 12 hours going up the ICW, spent two days in the ocean, stopped for gas, spent four hours on the ICW, and spent another two and a half days ⁓ in the ocean again, and made it back to Annapolis in four and a half days. Had the most beautiful weather window. It was perfect weather the whole time. And and race race doesn't sail. So Craig Fuhr (01:39) WHAT? I was gonna say, is is race a seafaring lad or ⁓ Jack BeVier (01:48) He he's very comfortable on boats, but he he does not sail. So it was it was an adventure and he was a trooper and we had a we had a great time. Craig Fuhr (01:56) Wait a minute, did you come up the inner did you come back up the intercoastal? Jack BeVier (02:00) No, I I spent in the four and a half days we spent fifteen hours on the intercoastal. The rest was all in the ocean. Dude, we were doing we were doing twenty-four hour, it was we were going twenty-four hours a day, and overnight we would do three hour shifts. So I did nine to midnight, he did twelve to three, I did three to six a.m. He did six a.m. to nine a.m. And then we would kind of nap during the day to like catch up on things. But we were going we were going for four and a half days, we did not stop. We stopped for 10 minutes to get gas in North Carolina. Craig Fuhr (02:26) Well Jack BeVier (02:29) And then headed out to Hatteras. It was great. It was an awesome trip. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun. Craig Fuhr (02:32) That's insane. That's awesome, man. Well, it sounds I'm sure that you were still working while you were on the trip ⁓ and and keeping up with the news. Got a couple things we're gonna talk about today on a quick RIR podcast. One, you know, I think you and I are both thinking that like yeah, we're we're we're gonna refresh it a little bit. We're gonna, we're gonna we've done 120 episodes, I guess. And so we're gonna just slowly sort of refresh the what we're doing a little bit. And we're gonna do more of these shorts plus ⁓ continue to do the long term content and a lot of content off of that content, which I'm excited about and building right now. But Jack, ⁓ yeah, so if you want to talk about that quickly, anything to mention there, what we're doing there. Jack BeVier (03:18) no, I'm looking I'm yeah, no, I'm looking forward to that. There's we we produce a lot of content. The feedback that we consistently get is that the I don't know, the kind of conversations we're having here were a little like you know, we're we're just a little in the weeds on if you're not an an act if you're not an active real estate investor. If you are an ac an active real estate investor, we're just talking shop. And so those guys, I get a ton of texts and emails from folks who, you know, really enjoy the level of content. And so we want to make the most of it and do the most we can in terms of getting that content out there. And ⁓ you've been working on a ton of great stuff in that regard and I'm looking forward to it. Craig Fuhr (03:56) Yeah, man, I'm really excited. Got a lot of stuff to to share soon. ⁓ so, Jack, ⁓ let's talk about issue number one here today on the podcast. ⁓ for years, you know, even back when I was flipping, Jack, FHA had this rule that, like, if you bought a house, didn't matter what you really put into it, but if the person who was buying that house from you, if you bought a house and you and you and you intended to flip it, you you added some value to it. and you and you wanted to flip it, put it back out on the market quickly because you're a really great operator, you couldn't sell it to an FHA buyer unless the house had 90 days of seasoning. There appears to be some motion in comr Congress on this FHA flipping rule, Jack. And just wondering what your thoughts were on that. Jack BeVier (04:44) Yeah, and for those who I mean, I'm sure most listeners are, but you couldn't even put the property under contract to the new owner until that 91 day mark. So that was like, you know, frustrating. If you had like just a quick cosmetic patch and paint that you're done in like 30 days, you're just sitting there and you can't even put it on the market for an extra 60 days. You're just paying interest on the thing. It's sitting there vacant the whole time. It's like What's the what's the what's the argument for for why this is benefit you know beneficial? Now Craig Fuhr (05:14) Even even worse to even worse, Jack. It's not forget about the guy that just had to go in and do the patch and paint. We know guys that have such great operations now, Jack, they can go in and do a hundred thousand dollar rehab in less than ninety days. You know? So so you couldn't even say to, Hey, look, I bought it for this, I can show you all this money that I put into it. You still that still didn't matter. So yeah. Jack BeVier (05:38) My buddy, ⁓ my buddy Jason Minzer owns Timberlake homes in Prince George's County and does deals in Delaware also. They have a 14 week build cycle, right? From when he breaks ground and digs, digs dirt from you know from finished lot, he starts digging the basement to punch out is 14 weeks. And so he's just over, you know, he's just over that that that 12 week 90 day mark. And that's literally building a 4,000 square foot home from scratch. Craig Fuhr (05:57) Unreal. Jack BeVier (06:07) So like the idea that a flipper couldn't get a, you know, couldn't add significant value in less than 90 days is been a frustration for the industry for a very, very, very long time. with the current administration's, you know, version of the federal housing administration, the FHA, they are now ⁓ kind of talking about ⁓ taking a look at that. And the reason about taking a look at that rule. Craig Fuhr (06:08) Right. Jack BeVier (06:34) And and maybe pulling that back, maybe getting rid of it altogether. And the I think the idea that they're talking about is that they feel comfortable that AVMs, ⁓ that automated valuation models are getting good enough that they can get confident that fraud isn't happening w with the AVMs and with the interior pictures of the property better than they could before. And they're there, you know, because the reason that the flipping rule exists. Craig Fuhr (06:38) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack BeVier (07:04) Is because back in the late nineties ⁓ and early two thousands, there was appraisal fraud where someone would just literally pay off the appraiser and buy a house for $200,000 and then relist it at $300,000 and had not had done nothing. And there was, you know, com total opacity as to like what had happened and what values were in that area. And so particularly in dense, you know, in in in in harder to comp areas, that was an opportunity to exploit. Craig Fuhr (07:14) Mm-hmm. Jack BeVier (07:34) you know, to exploit the system. And so as a kind of as a hack, right? FHA just kept getting taken advantage of. And kind of as a hack, they said, hey, we're just gonna force everybody to sit on it for 90 days. And at least that'll get rid of the people who are buying it, doing nothing, and then reselling it two weeks later to to a h to a new homeowner. ⁓ but so you know it it it there this r by the way this like you know for those listening this certainly rhymes with the seasoning issues that we have in DSCR loans, right? Like the the seasoning, the 90-day and 180-day seasoning rules that are in the DSCR gun guidelines exist as a hack because those lenders are not confident in that, you know, they don't don't trust the appraisals that are coming through. And as a way to prevent those appraisers from just being wrong or you know, just just making mistakes. And or actually participating in fraud, they make us sit on these properties and ⁓ we can't do a cash out refi above our basis for 90 or 180 days, depending on the DSCR program. So I'm ex I'm the most well, I'm excited about it because as a flipper, particularly in areas that we're often selling to folks who are using FHA loans, this could help could help the economics for flipping, right? It'll decrease the carry. On these projects where we're where our outsale is an FHA an FHA buyer. But then also, if FHA sets this precedent, my hope is that the methodology that they're using to get comfortable will also be adopted by the DSCR industry, or at least that perspective will also be adopted by the DSCR industry. And maybe we could make ground on getting rid of that seasoning rule on the DSCR side also. Craig Fuhr (09:24) That's interesting since the two, you know, have that commonality but are completely unrelated in terms of regulation, right? So like t D S C R is non QM, not really regulated by Congress or or the FHA versus the other way, right? Jack BeVier (09:42) Yep, yep, exactly, Craig Fuhr (09:43) So Jack, ⁓ to get it changed, to get this ⁓ particular rule changed, ⁓ it's it's probably more a FHA ruling rather than having to go through Congress to sort of change any law, I would think. Jack BeVier (09:59) Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's I think that the f the discretion lies within the FHA itself to change this rule. Craig Fuhr (10:05) Wow. So that that could really just so yeah, that could just be like ⁓ sort of a a phone call over to the FHA to say get it done, right? Like rather than having to get Congress to move on anything. That'd be pretty sweet. Jack BeVier (10:18) Yeah, that's the hope, right? And so, you know, they're they're putting some they're putting some some news ads out here. They're talking about it at some conferences like the like the the the Mortgage Bankers Association's secondary conference was just a couple of weeks ago up in New York. They're floating the idea conferences like that to see how much pushback they get from other regulators, the industry. I mean, not surprising, the Mortgage Bankers Association is very much in favor of this idea because it'll help deals happen faster. So You know, hopefully you know, hopefully they're just doing a little bit of ⁓ you know, socialization of the idea, making sure they don't get ⁓ too much pushback if they actually put this rule in place. ⁓ and so, you know, hey, stay tuned. Hopefully later this year we'll we'll see some changes to the to the positive. Craig Fuhr (11:03) Hey, ⁓ second topic. ⁓ wasn't planning on this one, but what's your take on the market right now, man? Like w give me give me give me a hot take. did did you see a lot of for sale signs coming up the coast or Jack BeVier (11:21) Yeah, I mean the ⁓ mortgage rates are brutal right now, right? Like we we lost all the ground that we made. ⁓ you know, the bond market's super crazy. Yeah, the two year sucks, the five year sucks, the ten year sucks, Craig Fuhr (11:29) Bond market's a little crazy right now, Jackie. Nobody wants to buy the thirty year. Yeah. Jack BeVier (11:39) Yeah, yeah, exactly. ⁓ so that hasn't been good for interest rates and summer's almost over. So I'm once again very nervous about I'm trying to get everything off as fast as I can right now. Like I'm just like aggressively drop price until the market clears. I do not want to own retail real estate on August first. You know, I just I I I need to get get out of the stuff that I'm in. So trying to we're still seeing Craig Fuhr (12:02) Mm. Jack BeVier (12:09) I felt like they're like right at Memorial Day there was a ⁓ a little pop, but it it to me it felt like everyone realized, spring's almost over. Like they were hoping that interest rates came down, but they do need to buy a house this year. And so they were interest rates just haven't come down and they're like, Well it's it's Memorial Day. Like we do need to put some offers in. I had five offers on a house, a five hundred and twenty-five thousand dollar listing in Baltimore County. Craig Fuhr (12:13) Yeah. Yeah. Jack BeVier (12:33) And we had five offers on it, which like really exceeded my expectations for that price point and particularly kind of like how we priced it, ⁓ less than a week. Like over over the first over the f you know, over the first week we we got like three offers, but let it run the weekend and called for highest and best. And Yeah, man. I don't know. Hey, I don't know what listing agent you're using, but if her name isn't Jamie Kohler and she's not married to me, you s you're you're messing up, you know? Craig Fuhr (12:39) How long was it on the market? Can you help me out with a listing in Howard County or His name his name happens to be Brian Lebowitz, ⁓ it it's so it's just so you know so so you know him too. Jack BeVier (13:03) Fair enough. Fair enough, fair enough. They work closely together. They work closely. Craig Fuhr (13:10) So so I was gonna ask you about that, Jack, when you're talking to Jamie, is what's she feeling? You know, what's what's her what's her take right now? Jack BeVier (13:18) Busy. my wife's a real estate agent for those who don't know. And ⁓ she is very, very busy. She has been all year. and just kind of like a hard push for through through this June 30th. I mean, but it's been a it's been a brutal it's been a brutal spring. She's been very busy the whole time, but it has been hard the whole way through. Like nothing has come easy. So getting a lot of deals done, but ⁓ getting a lot of deals done, but but nothing easy about it. Craig Fuhr (13:47) You know what's strange, Jack, ⁓ as someone who has really only s bought and sold real estate in pretty damn good markets, you know, myself. it's kind of weird, man, when you when you put a really great house on the market, and I think mine is in a really prime area, and you get like seven showings in a weekend. You know, like that doesn't feel that doesn't feel normal to me when it when it's probably very normal, right? Jack BeVier (14:12) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I follow. Yeah, I follow. Craig Fuhr (14:15) So ⁓ so yeah, man, we'll keep an eye on the market. ⁓ next thing we were gonna talk about today is the house version of the institutional ownership. ⁓ you know, the big the big question is ⁓ or the big topic is the legislation that's going that's trying to go through Congress right now that that Trump that the Trump administration has even talked about and advocated for, which is a limit of You know, how many houses ⁓ an institutional owner can own. And so we talked about that extensively on previous podcasts, Jack, but there have been some updates and ⁓ it sounds like there's some movement on the seven year flipping or the seven year hold period, or have to buy or have to sell periods. Okay, yeah. Jack BeVier (15:05) Yeah. So for those who haven't been following that as closely, the Senate passed a version of the bill setting the definition of institutional owner at 350 properties. And, you know, using probably the same control group rules that the that the IRS rule uses. So you can't just set up another LLC. Like if you are the beneficial owner of an LLC. then you know those are yours or or control and or control the LLC, those are all aggregated together. So once you get to 350 under your control and or ownership, ⁓ you can't buy from another non-institutional owner. So if you own a thousand, you could trade your portfolio or merge with somebody who own who owns 2000. But if you own a thousand you can't buy from somebody who owns 50, you can't buy the portfolio from somebody who owns 50. So the idea here is that is to keep, you know, is to keep the large institutions and public REITs from buying turnkey real estate, ⁓ and competing with first time home buyers. That's really what they're trying to avoid is compete in Wall Street competing with first time home buyers. And so because that's the philosophy, there are some exceptions to this ⁓ If you own at least 350, you can't buy. Those the two main exceptions that I've been paying attention to are that you could do build to rent deals. So if you were gonna build from scratch, you know, build build from finished lot and and put houses up, you could keep those as rentals. Andor you, if you were doing a significant rehab with their, I think they used 20% of the purchase price. If you spent 20% of the purchase price in construction costs or rehab costs, you could also do that. So is if you were adding value or you were building new, those were exceptions to this. Except and yeah. Yeah. And you could go above the 350. So if you own 500 already, you can go do a build-to-rent deal, you can keep buying houses and fixing them up and then keep them as rentals and grow your portfolio that way. But you couldn't just come in with this cost of capital advantage and bid against a homeowner for a pretty Craig Fuhr (17:06) And you could go be Jack BeVier (17:26) You know, for a $250,000 house in Mecklenburg County, Charlotte, North Carolina, you couldn't come in and compete with a first-time home buyer who wanted to buy that house. That was the idea. And so you could go, you could do build to rent and you could do those renovations, those value add deals, except that you had to sell those those properties, you had to sell them seven years later or within seven years because they didn't want You know, the idea there is that and this that was a last-minute amendment that was made to the Senate bill by the sponsors' offices and ⁓ Warren, namely. And that idea was that they didn't want the amount the percentage of institutional ownership to increase. So hey, you can own them for seven years, you can take your bonus depreciation and do all that, but Eventually you have to put them back into the market and sell them to the next generation of first-time home buyers. And so that'll be a new source of inventory for those for those first-time home buyers, is the idea. Well, the problem with that is the industry like hated, they don't like this idea at all, right? They they it it's a it's a it's a problem for ⁓ the equity who wants to ⁓ invest in single family real estate, scattered site real estate. It's also a real problem for the debt shops that are trying to build debt. programs around this business model. Because if you can't get any, you know, if your customers can only get to 350 and then they can't buy any more, well, why invest in building a loan program for institut, you know, for somebody who own who own who owns a a couple hundred houses. So it was going to put a really, you know, really ⁓ you know, cold water on on the debt market, particularly for those larger, larger deals. Craig Fuhr (19:06) Sure. Jack BeVier (19:16) Particularly if it was you could only if you if you're gonna be forced to sell them within seven years, it's like, what's the point of that? I can't even get a refi out of this. I get to do one seven year loan and then I'm out. Like, you know, I'm not even gonna bother. Like for forget it. I and so it would have a real cooling effect on the market if the, you know, the seven year resale requirement was gonna have a really big cooling ⁓ effect on that financing market. And so, like, you know, people are talking about like, hey, build to rent's dead. Right. Like this is just gonna single handedly kill build to rent because not that people aren't interested in build to rent, but if the lenders aren't interested because they don't see an ongoing business model, they're not gonna put the energy into it. And if the lenders don't invest in in in maturing the debt market, you can't do c you know, you're not gonna you're not gonna end up with a securitization market, you're not gonna end up with a lower cost of capital. And frankly, it's you know, the the the levered returns aren't gonna be that interesting. Like, you know, like it's not gonna be a thing. Craig Fuhr (20:11) Yeah. Jack BeVier (20:13) To do build to rent. So the industry really lined up against this, particularly the seven-year resale rule. They were, they, they, they got, I think word came from on high that they that something was gonna pass and that the 350 number was already pre-negotiated and like don't even bother. The only door that was left open was whether they could get rid of this seven-year resale rule. So the industry is really kind of lined up to to try to get rid of it. And lo and behold. In the house version of this bill, that seven-year resale requirement has been eliminated. Now, that does not mean the law has passed. That just means the house version is slightly different, and the industry prefers the house's version of this not great bill to begin with. But ⁓ it still has to go through reconciliation, and so we'll s we we still don't know yet what, if anything, is going to pass. ⁓ You know, there's our also an argument that this is all also just like pre-midterm posturing and bluster. And if they can not pass something, that'd be fine too. So everyone's count now kind of waiting to see if anything is gonna pass, or if the House version is acceptable enough to the Senate that that goes through. So the coast is not clear, but better. Craig Fuhr (21:32) Here's my prediction. I don't I think it's all I think it's all largely performative. I I think that and and and to try to get, you know, significant bipartisan ⁓ you know, enough to pass a filibuster on something like this through the Senate. It's just so especially with the money. You said you the industry lined up. This is not like mom and pop guys lining up to go lobby Congress. This is like Blackstone and like large build to run companies that are lobbying. ⁓ so I I just don't Jack BeVier (22:05) Yeah, it's it's like it's the ⁓ it's the National Rental Home Council, it's the Maryland Bankers Association, it's the the National Association of Home Builders, all three of those hate this idea. Which and they're huge, huge lobbies. Craig Fuhr (22:16) Yeah, and so right. The the other thing that I would say that I find concerning about it is so like let's say let's say that ⁓ let's say let's say that that that the seven year law does pass, but at some point the the owner of a portfolio wants to sell that ⁓ be to our community. Are they selling it to another similar sized owner? Do they have to trade with other similar sized owners? Or can we benefit the small, the actual homeowners who want to own a home and say, hey, if you're going to break up that B to our community, then just then then homeowners have to be a part of that too. Like, like make it available, make some of that community available to homeowners as well. Because I still call me, call me old-fashioned, Jack, but I still think home ownership in America means something. And you know, I like to see more people own homes. Jack BeVier (23:09) Well, that's that's kind of the what the what the net effect here may be, ca because if you do a fifty unit b build to rent community, you aren't going to be able to sell it to Blackstone or ⁓ American Homes for Rent or those guys who are aggregating. You they're not allowed to do business with you as a small builder. So they those they're gonna be forced. Craig Fuhr (23:28) Yep, but they're allowed but they're allowed to build communities. They're allowed to build communities. Jack BeVier (23:33) Yeah, and and so they're building home they're they're they're bolting on home builder divisions internally, but but they're not gonna be able to transact with the small guys. I think the guy the thing that's not reported that I think is the biggest impact to our community is that is the is the guy who owns less than 350 houses, the guy who owns 50 to 350 rentals, I think is getting the shaft here. Because well, because he who's he gonna who's he gonna exit to? Craig Fuhr (23:47) Yeah. How so? Jack BeVier (24:01) Like before he could go to an institution who had some footprint nearby and say, Hey, I'm gonna be your foothold in Chattanooga. And they were like, Hey, I'd love to have a foothold in Chattanooga. And now they're not allowed to buy your 173 houses. And the idea that you can sell 173 of your houses to somebody who owns 300, that's not a thing. Like guys who have who who own 300 don't buy 173. Maybe they could bite off a 30 or a 50 unit portfolio. Craig Fuhr (24:01) Right. Jack BeVier (24:31) But you can't, no, no one's no one's that big, or you know, no when you're that size, like you know, you don't you don't have the capital to do it. So I th I think what it's done is it's decreased the liquidity profile of building a small rental portfolio. And now what's gonna happen is that you're gonna have this, you're gonna have this steady stream of investors who build a 50 to 350 unit portfolio. Craig Fuhr (24:44) Yeah. Jack BeVier (24:56) And now their only exit strategy is selling one at a time or selling in very small packages, right? ⁓ and and so now and that's gonna take them three years, right? Like the fastest, right? The fastest you could ever liquidate, turn, get those to a rent, you know, to a retail standard, sell them. It's a ton of work. You're gonna spend three years of your life winding down your portfolio. So, like, you know, when you get tired, you don't get to just get out. Craig Fuhr (25:02) Right, right. Jack BeVier (25:25) And like you you don't even get to fire sale it, right? Like they've taken the ability to fire sale this portfolio kind of off the table. ⁓ and now it's gonna be, hey, no, you're gonna wind these down over the course of three years mostly. A and and it'll be in your interest to do so to to first time home buyers. ⁓ Craig Fuhr (25:43) It's it's it's really it's really two major issues that we're talking about here. It's the it's the having to trade with sort of like size entities, right? And then the seven year rule, which we which we're discussing here as well. yeah, man, that's and so who's advocating for that guy, Jack? Who's who's who's talking for that guy? Jack BeVier (25:55) Yeah. Nobody's advocating for that guy. Yeah, the the National Rental Home Council is and I'm a big fan of the organization and I'm a member, but they they they don't they they their their primary dues pay so source of dues does not come from the guy who owns 50 properties. They all have all they have they're trying to expand in that direction, and everyone who is of that size should join. But ⁓ well, and by the way, like the 350 number came from Craig Fuhr (26:08) Me too. Yes. Jack BeVier (26:30) Came from the the th this whole idea came from the White House. So like this isn't as if Elizabeth Warren shoved this bill down our throats. The White House said, I want this bill to pass. So like 350 was a negotiated number. You know, it could have been a thousand, but it could have been a hundred. So like I think the industry was kind of like fine taking what it could get there. Craig Fuhr (26:42) Yeah. Well that's so That's the thing, dude. It's like I I feel like it's an eighty twenty issue when you talk to most Americans. They're like, you know, they they they hate the big guy and want the for the little guy. They're not excited about ⁓ you know, a community of built to rent rentals in their in their neighborhood. It's an easy issue for the White House, Jack. It you know, because it's just it just sounds so good. You c you can do all of the talking points and most Americans will say, Yeah, I agree with that. It's just another reason to hate Wall Street. Yeah, I'm in. Jack BeVier (27:17) Yeah. Craig Fuhr (27:19) But what they don't get is like the guys that are sort of at our level, you know, like well, you know, at at your and Fred's level, and maybe the guys that have like three to four hundred properties. Like none of it, like I don't think the average American gets that. And how important it is to have what? I'm not speaking and I'm not speaking specifically about you, ⁓ but you get my point. Jack BeVier (27:36) All right. Yeah, but like, you know, does does anyone give a shit if the guy who has a hundred properties, it takes him three years to get out and, you know, cash in his check before he can sit on the beach instead of like instead of six months, you know, or four months? Like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, he sh he should sell to homeowners. It's probably what most people would say. So, ⁓ I just think it, you know, it makes the it makes the it it what I don't like is the I always hate. I just always, always, always hate when you move the goalpost in the middle of the game. Like I just hate when the rules change in the middle of the game. Craig Fuhr (27:46) No. Mm-hmm. Jack BeVier (28:09) So like the guy who has, you know, the guy who a couple of years ago decided, hey, you know what, I'm gonna aggregate and I'm gonna do a roll up strategy, or I'm gonna I'm gonna raise money and I'm gonna do a roll up strategy, or I'm gonna aggregate and then I'm gonna sell to this like larger institution. And he got to a hundred and sixty three properties. And hey, he'll probably do he'll probably be fine, right? Like depending on how much debt he put on that portfolio, he should, you know, hopefully he'll be fine. But ⁓ He thought he was, you know, he thought he w the the that the game he was playing was to get up to three hundred and then sell because there's an aggregation premium maybe at that level. And the goalposts got moved on him. And all of a sudden, nah dude, you have to spend three years when you know, when you get exhausted, you have you you still have three years left to work before you can get there. So that just sucks. Craig Fuhr (28:57) Yeah. ⁓ yeah, dev we'll keep an eye on it. ⁓ interesting topic for sure. I still believe that nothing really is gonna come of it. So it's much ado about nothing and but it isn't it. I think I well well I think I think you and I both agree that it's an issue that's probably not going away from a state level. You know, it increasingly more states are are thinking about in the same in the same terms. Jack BeVier (29:08) That would be s that would be super interesting. If nothing comes of all of this. Craig Fuhr (29:25) It's really hard for me to imagine that Congress will get together on it. Like it's just nothing, nothing seems to be getting through Congress right now. So I I you know, I'm interested and see what comes out. Hey, ⁓ one more thing. did you have a ⁓ meeting with RIR recently or is that coming up? Jack BeVier (29:42) It is coming up. We ⁓ yeah, we're getting together in ⁓ Detroit this week. Craig Fuhr (29:48) What's up with that by the way? I I I was wondering what what what was with the Detroit location. Jack BeVier (29:53) Yeah, so we used we, you during COVID, we were doing it in Baltimore just because we're from Baltimore. Or like we would switch it up and we'd go to Dallas because Dallas is like central within the country. But, you know, that we have members all over the country. And, you know, when they'd come to Baltimore that we'd tour them around Baltimore a little bit and they'd see some houses and yeah, show them around. And then, ⁓ and so the idea was that like, hey, you know, but but we have members all over the country that we've gotten to know really well. ⁓ Craig Fuhr (30:11) Yeah, I sure, sure, sure. Jack BeVier (30:22) You know, everyone's really become friends and and help each other help each other out. And ⁓ so people were just like, hey, let's do one in my hometown. And everyone loved that idea. So we ⁓ we decided to to get our act together on, you know, figuring out the logistics. And so we did one in ⁓ we did one in Jacksonville, we did one in Nashville, this one we're doing in Detroit. One of my great regrets is that in 2009, I didn't get on a plane and go to Detroit. and see and just see how bad, you know, the real estate market had gotten there. Cause it was like, you know, one of the ground zeros, right? ⁓ so I wanna go s check out wanna check out what eight mile looks like. Craig Fuhr (31:04) it's no coincidence that ⁓ Real Investor Radio is sort of co-branded with the Real Investor Roundtable that you and Fred created long before this podcast. So tell folks about like, you know, who who the members of the roundtable are and how they can get how folks get in touch it if they're interested in talking to you more about it. Jack BeVier (31:23) Yeah, so we put together real investor roundtable. ⁓ we run it as a nonprofit, so it is not a source of income for us. ⁓ it allows us to keep the dues much, much lower than masterminds, you know, than most real estate masterminds. But the idea was that, like, the idea was that hey, we I'm here for the ideas. Like I have a real estate and a lending and a property management platform. The ideas that I get at these masterminds are far more valuable. than and whatever money we could make off of a mastermind. And so I just want to get the best ideas going in the room and and have like get the most honest conversations and get people, you know, get everyone's tips and tricks and pain and, you know, and tell war stories. And that'll be the most valuable th that'll be the reason for me to like not see my family, you know, for three days. three three times a year. And so we we run it three times a year. We find that like four months between is enough time for things to have changed a little bit, but enough, but close enough that like you maintain a relationship with everybody who's who's in the group. And so we have new member, new members each time that we that we invite to come for free. See if they like it. See if we like you. They present on their businesses. There should be some gives. There also should be some asks and hopefully the room can add value to them and they perceive that, yeah, this is someone, this is a room that I want to go spend time in for two days, three times a year and work on my business. and so I'm very excited about it. We've got ⁓ we've actually got four new member presentations. I was looking at the agenda earlier this morning. We have four new member presentations this time. We're gonna do an activity out in the city in Detroit beforehand. We've got, I'm doing a macroeconomic back trap discussion. ⁓ we're doing a capital stack deep dive, like how people are structuring and financing their businesses right now. We're gonna go through ⁓ one of our members, Stacy Buckelmeyer, ⁓ is ⁓ excellent at property management and turnovers. So we're gonna be talking, you know, we we get thick in the weeds. Thick, thick in the weeds. Like this is not there's not a bunch of egos at the front of the room saying, like, hey, I'm amazing at my business and look how awesome I am. It's Hey, I'm looking to grind down my turnover costs. Like, let's talk about strategies to do that. Like, you know, let's, you know, let's talk about all the rebates that we get and and all the different ways that we can to just like really like pick up nickels and dimes, because the dollars, you know, end up taking care of themselves. ⁓ we got a guy from from New York City who I'm excited to to hear from because he got all the Mandami stuff that is playing out right now. ⁓ and so I'm I'm really looking forward to they they do like new construction multifamily in the boroughs. So that'll be I'm really looking forward to that presentation. ⁓ David Moses, our good friend from Forked, is going to be doing a presentation on the stuff that he's been building and actually doing some like live demos for folks. I think there's there's a lot of operators who are tr who are like still a little intimidated by it and not quite sure how to get things started. I think he's gonna go around the room and be like, hey, give me an operational issue that you want me to resolve. And he's gonna in real time you know, show you how he would build the resolution of of that issue. so yeah, we we have ⁓ we spend two full days with each other. There's also dinners each night. And ⁓ so you know, it's an it's an action-packed two days. There's no fluff in there. ⁓ but I always get I'm always, you know, I always get a ton out of it and look forward to the next one. if that's something that you're interested in, we are always recruiting for new members. So if it's if that sounds like an environment that you think you would get value out of and that you would bring value to, ⁓ shoot me an email. It's Jack at the Dominion Group dot com. ⁓ and we'll hop on the phone and chat and invite you to the next meeting. ⁓ and also you can check out more about the group at Real Investor Roundtable dot com. All right. Thanks, everybody. This has been another fun episode with my good friend Craig Fuhr of Real Investor Radio. Hope everyone has a great week and we'll talk to you soon.