Latest / The Rochelle Christiane Podcast / Thought Field Therapy and Trauma Healing Techniques with Dr. Robert Bray

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Thought Field Therapy and Trauma Healing Techniques with Dr. Robert Bray · The Rochelle Christiane Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Emotional Mastery Podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I am your host, rochelle.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I'm a holistic human design health coach and this is a space for human design and spiritual journey.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: It's not about being a master of your emotions, rather mastering the tools to self-regulate, to awakening yourself and remembering who you are.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Human design changed my life about five years ago and I've been learning and teaching the system ever since.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: This podcast is human design meets spirituality, meets astrology.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: You don't have to have a belief system to be here, just an open mind and curiosity.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: This is a journey of meeting yourself and awakening to your infinite potential.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Now let the magic begin.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of the Emotional Mastery Podcast.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try and keep this intro brief.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I'm fighting a little bit of a cold so you can probably hear my voice.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: But today's podcast episode I interviewed Robert Bray all about thought field therapy.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So a lot of us have heard of EFT and it's really based off of this tapping practice called thought field therapy.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: And so Robert Bray has worked in the field of traumatic stress recovery for over 40 years.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: He began as a volunteer on a crisis hotline and throughout his professional career he has always focused on the impact of traumatic stress on the mental and physical health of individuals, families and communities.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Dr Bray has extensive experience as a clinician helping in recovery from natural disasters, criminal acts and domestic violence of all types.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: He's been trained, writing and developing thought field therapy since 1996.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: His book Heal Traumatic Stress Now Complete Recovery with Thought Field Therapy no Open Wounds, provides a consumer-friendly self-help guide to anyone struggling with overwhelming stress.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: And this interview was really interesting because, like I said, I've definitely done EFT tapping before and I've heard of TFT thought-filled therapy but I hadn't really dove too much into it.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: And during this interview Dr Bray doesa little tapping on me so just to demonstrate what it looks like.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: And there are different forms or different algorithms for different stressors.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: So sadness, fear, whatever and yeah, I noticed during this one that the event that I was thinking of really reduced dramatically.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: And I think tapping in general is a really beautiful practice just to bring you into the moment.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: And I think that was the core takeaway really from this episode is that when we're in an emotional state, we're sort of brought back to the past.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Right, we're brought back to the moment, that moment, and we want to be present in this moment, and so this is a way to really bring you into this moment and to know that you're safe and to really sort of, yeah, just bring you into your body and bring you into the present, because that's where we need to be, to be moving through things, and this is just a really, really great tool to be able to do that, to be able to move through these triggering moments.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: And there's big T trauma and little t trauma, but they're both.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: It's subjective and I think that whatever that looks like for you and whatever you're moving through, this can be a really beautiful tool to moving through that.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: So I hope that you enjoy this episode.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: It was such a pleasure speaking with Dr Bray on this episode this week.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I recorded the August transit update last week, but this week we have actually, as I'm recording this, we have Mars Jupiter conjunction in Gemini, square Saturn, and then we have Mercury moving back into Leo and this Kazemi Sun-Mercury Kazemi on Sunday, and then next week we have our full moon in Aquarius, which is going to be pretty intense, and this Kazemi on Sunday that's happening is bringing us a little bit of clarity in this Mercury retrograde period, but it is square to Uranus and so it's going to be a little bit unpredictable.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a little bit disorienting, possibly because Uranus is, you know, it shakes sort of the ground that we're standing on, and so we also have the full moon.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: That's going to be square Uranus as well.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: So this sort of this energy of disruption, I guess, this energy of unpredictability, of freedom, it's also, you know, it's also a really beautiful energy.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: But these things may, we may be feeling them come this weekend.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: So you know, if you look into this, you know, after listening to this episode, you can try the algorithm that Dr Bray pulled me through.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: But if you use this as a form of being present, in a form of self-regular nervous system regulation, this is a great time to sort of pull out those tools if you are feeling a little disrupted this weekend into next.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: But I will leave it at that.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Empower, which is a nine-week program where we're going to be deep, diving into your charts.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: We're going to go through all the planets, your big three, human design and astrology, the gates aspects, really understanding your chart, because that's something over the summer that I feel like I've really been moving through, been going through a lot of ups and downs, but it is through this self-awareness and acceptance that I've been able to sort of witness it in a little bit different way and not be so absorbed into it.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: But that will be starting September 1st and the link will be in the show notes rochellechristiancom slash empower E-M-P-E-R-E-M-P oh my gosh, I don't know why I can't spell that E-M-P-E-R-H-E-R.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: And yeah, that'll bring you to find all the information.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram at rochellechristian R-O-C-H-E-L-E dot.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n-e.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Enjoy the episode and if it resonates with you, share with a friend.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: It really really is helpful.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: You can leave a review Spotify.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Just click those five stars.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: It really really does help.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: I appreciate every single one of you, whether it's your first time listening or you've been listening for a while.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I know I've been a little inactive this summer on the podcast, but sort of getting back to it now and it feels really good.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: So just appreciate everyone that is here listening and enjoy the episode.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Emotional Mastery Podcast.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Today I have Robert Bray, who is a thought field therapist and author of the book Heal Traumatic Stress Now Complete Recovery with Thought Field Therapy and Traumatic Stress Recovery all included in that, and I'm really excited to have this conversation because we were sort of talking offline.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people hear about EFT and don't necessarily know the difference, or maybe haven't even heard of TFT, and so it's really interesting.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: But I'm going to just start to.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to hand you the floor for you to introduce yourself and sort of tell your story of how you got to where you're at today, maybe any you know pivotal moments along the way that sort of shaped the trajectory of your.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: You know your journey, and then we'll go from there.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for having me.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: I'm never quite sure where to start with my story, because if you could see me, you would know that I'm a 72-year-old white man and I've been working in the field of traumatic stress recovery in one form or another since I got into college, form or another since I got into college, so over 50 years ago and so that's just who I am.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I've always been somebody who's wanting to figure out how do we make this better, how do we deal with the situation, and so I'm a licensed clinical social worker.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: I have a PhD in psychology with an emphasis in marriage and family therapy, and in 1996, I was introduced to Roger Callahan and thought field therapy, and Roger Callahan is the originator of all the tapping that you hear and see today.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: The rest of it are derivatives of that.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: The most common one, eft, was developed by Gary Craig, who was a student of Roger's for three years, and at some point they had a parting of ways having to do with the fact that Roger Callahan was a psychologist in his late 50s when he started working on this stuff in the 1980s and had been a quite successful psychotherapist using standard emotional, rational emotive therapy, the original cognitive theory stuff, anyway.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: So they had a parting of ways, because Roger had a very particular way of looking at what is healthy and what is helpful and what is underlying thought field therapy.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Gary Craig had a different perspective on some of these things, but he was very good at marketing.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: He was an engineer by trade and businessman and so he took it out to the public, so that's why most people hear it and know what it is.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: The thing about EFT is it's one standard tapping pattern for all conditions.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Now where thought field therapy is different is we don't think that tapping in the same pattern, in the same way over and over is going to take care of all problems.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: And if now I don't want nothing bad about EFT for me, I mean there is so much good research that has been done that it shows that it works, and it's the energy psychology, which is a rubric that this falls under, is the most studied, the most researched approaches to dealing with emotional overwhelm, ptsd, and I'm just not quite.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm stumbling over my words here because there's so much I'd like to tell you about this and I know that telling you the history of TFT and EFT is not going to spark anybody's ears is not going to say, oh okay, I got to pay attention to this.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: That stuff goes on, it's there, and if EFT works for you, and it works for a lot of people, then it's fine.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Where thought field therapy is important to me is what if it doesn't work, then what do you do?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Well, in five-field therapy, instead of having just one standard tapping pattern, we have 14 standard patterns, and if the standard patterns don't work, we have a very precise protocol for how you find a tapping pattern for the exact condition that you're working with.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: And we do that through kinesiology muscle testing.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: And that's where Roger began his journey.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: A psychiatrist friend of his showed him some muscle testing and he said, oh, that's interesting.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: He went off and took the 100-hour course that chiropractors take for doing applied kinesiology.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: He came back then he found some unique things were happening, that he could use this muscle testing as a way to communicate with his clients at a very deep, fundamental level, and from that he started developing the tapping that we have today.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Now I was lucky that I met Roger in 96.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And for many years was his.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I think I went through his course like three times in the first year because I was just fascinated and within a couple of years I was training for him.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: When he wasn't able to train, I was the trainer that was sent out to do the work, and so I have a really depth of understanding of this stuff.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: But the stuff that might perk people's ears up is when we say, when you have an overwhelming emotional distress, you can tap it into a place where it's manageable, it doesn't overwhelm you anymore.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: And once those feelings are managed and you're not being overwhelmed, then you can use the good brain you've got.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: You can then take data up into that storage place that you keep it, do analysis of it in so many different ways and come to this place of being able to problem solve, to create plans, to figure out how to actually take action to make things differently.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: And to me that's the important thing.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: It's not that we just bring down the hurt and the pain, but we put people back into an empowered position where they can do something that's going to make their life better and the lives of the people they love better their life better and the lives of the people they love better.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: So that's why I think tapping is so important, because if you are overwhelmed by your emotion, if you are overtaken by that internal experience that says I am powerless, whether it's from big T trauma or little t trauma, your brain is not going to engage and you are going to be stuck in this place of a powerlessness or doing the same thing over and over again.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: And that's where the value comes in to people.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so TFT is more like I've done EFT a few times Right and, like you said, it's very generalized.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: It's sort of like kind of repeating.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I sort of sometimes I'm like I don't know what my dialogue should be with myself.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: You know things like that, but it sounds like TFT, from my understanding and sort of your explanation, is working with the specific emotion, like is there a dialogue that goes along with it as well, or is it completely different than Well?
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: that's the see.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: That's another change between EFT and TFT.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: We don't have to use words.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: In EFT they keep telling you get the right word, get the right thinking about this as you talk about it.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: But in thought field therapy we just go to the emotion and either we understand that emotion as it's defined by the person in one line of thought, we just use one of those 14 standard patterns, or we just say connect to that emotion and we do kinesiology, muscle testing with them, in person or at a distance, it doesn't matter and the inner wisdom, the inner healer, gives us the tapping pattern that is needed for that precise moment.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: And that's the difference is that we don't have to worry about words, we don't have to worry about guessing Am I understanding this correctly?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Am I making sense out of it?
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: We just have to be willing to listen to the inner healer that we all have, and once we do that, we can bring down that overwhelming emotion.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And suddenly we find ourselves in a place where, oh, okay, I can now think, I can now perceive in a way that's in this moment.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: So that's part of the difference in thought field therapy is that we want you to understand that we're not playing with some cognitive way of understanding the problems through your words.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: The problem with that is when we're using words in a cognitive therapy kind of way.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Well, words come from the upper part of the brain, the top of the brain.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: There's a center for language and all of that stuff, and words are an abstraction that we label.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: So the point is is that if I were to communicate with you about whatever's bothering you, I would not say you have to explain it to me.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Now, if you were going to, if we were just going to do a standard tapping pattern, I would say explain it to me so I can help you figure out what's the right pattern.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: But if we were just using kinesiology muscle testing.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I would just ask for your permission to test for you remotely and I would be able to communicate directly, not to the top of the brain, not to the conceptualized place where we are able to hold images of what we think the world is, but to the body, to the inner being that is living in the world, experiencing the world as it is, and through that muscle testing arrive at what's the best happening for you.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I've treated people.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what I'm treating them for, but they'll call up and they'll be crying or they'll be overwhelmed or they'll just be frozen and I'll say think of the problem, think of what you experience in your body right now, because that's the problem.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And then I'll muscle test for them and then I'll give them a tapping pattern and then suddenly they're not frozen anymore, they're able to breathe, they're able to engage their whole self in the present moment.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: And then we can.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: If I'm a great therapist, I don't want to give you the wrong impression.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: I think therapy, counseling, crisis intervention, all of those skill sets are really important for people at times, but they're not much use to you when you're so overwhelmed by pain, emotional pain, physical pain, by fear, by the horror of what's around you.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: You can't really go anywhere.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: But that's the beauty of working with somebody who's trained in this.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: As we calm all of that, then we can say what's the problem.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: And most of the time people already know what the problem is.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Most of the time people know what they need to do, but they're overwhelmed by their emotions and that stops them from acting.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: So is, is, is, am I getting?
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, think it's called the emotion code, I think is the book and I and I believe that talks about like pressure, not pressure points, but like muscle testing your arm.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: So when you're talking about muscle testing for somebody, how are you, how are you doing?
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Look, how can I address you?
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I just realized I don't really know how you want to be called Um Rochelle Rochelle is fine.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, be called Rochelle Rochelle is fine, yeah, okay, I'm just checking because I'm going.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I didn't even ask to say so, rochelle, yeah, okay.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: So if you were sitting in my office, I would ask you to hold your arm out and then I would lay my hand gently on top of yours.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: And I would just say resist the weight of my arm.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Then I would have you do a couple things so we could find the difference between a strong test and a weak test.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: And once that's established, that's all we need to know, because then when I say something like think of the pain that brings you here, you will immediately go weak.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: If you don't go weak, it means we have another problem, but we can take care of that very easily.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: So that's the way it would look if I was standing there pushing on your arm.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Now, in terms of when we start to learn to do this for others, we use self-testing techniques, because then I become a surrogate for you and that can be done.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: You know they do the thing where you pull the fingers apart or you force the fingers, or you force the fingers down, or um, there's a number of different ways to do it and it's not that difficult.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I've taught children how to do this without any problem, and so once you learn how to do the muscle testing for yourself, you can then become a surrogate for the other.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And that's what happens a lot with the work that I do.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: I prefer if you're in the room with me.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I always prefer that, because I like the contact, I like the sense of being with another in the moment and while we are now, because energy is non-spatial, it's non-linear, it's non-temporal.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, when you start working in the energy world, it doesn't matter where you are and where I am.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: If we agree to connect our energies, then you know it's there and it's a different way of understanding the world.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: So muscle testing might look like.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: So do you have a way that you muscle test?
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I've primarily done like the sway test is sort of just for myself.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I've tried to do like the pushing on my arm, but then sometimes I overthink it where I'm like, am I doing it wrong?
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: You know, like I get in my head where I feel like the sway, like there's something.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know that to me, but I just don't.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: If that works for you, that's fine.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: And if people don't know what the sway test is, it's simply you stand up straight, you think of whatever it is that you're concerned about and then, as you do that, you notice do you tend to sway forward, which is a positive response, or do you tend to sway back?
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Now, it's a subtle thing, but you can find it, you learn to do it easily and it's a technique that has a lot of uses.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Now, originally, Dr Callahan started with something he called the stretch test and he would just see how far he could bend over.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: He'd see how far his fingers went down towards his toes and if it was a positive response, he'd get a longer stretch.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: If it was a negative response, he'd get a longer stretch.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: If it was a negative response, he'd get a shorter stretch.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: So he started with a stretch thing and then he started doing it with his arms.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: So if you could see my arm, I'm moving it and saying I want to be healthy, it moves to a certain point when I say I want to be sick.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, it goes too far.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: That means I've got a problem, it's a reversal.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Just let me check correct that.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: I want to be healthy, there we go.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: I want to be sick, there we go.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: So a positive statement, an affirmative statement, is usually going to give you a strong or long response, depending on how you think about it.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: So once you understand, that then you begin to work with these protocols that dr collahan put together that show you how to find where to tap.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Now, how do I do it Today?
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: The easiest way is when I'm with clients, I put my hand up here on my chest so they can see my camera and I just test with a finger.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: My name is Bob, my name is George.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Doesn't move Right, so I'm looking at.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: That's a strong response, 's not?
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: I'm in san diego strong response.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: I'm in la no response.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: So it's a way that clients can see it if they want to.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: You don't have to, and oftentimes people aren't concerned about that, um, but it's a way that helps us to be able to connect and to be able to lead through the inner healer, through the self, what needs to be done.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I'm also very good at helping people identify what's going on, especially when we're working through trauma in their past.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah ask me something.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I do a four day long training on this stuff.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: So I can go on forever, but direct me towards what you think your listeners might be interested in.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm just really interested in how we can use this.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, for me, and I think a lot of people like you said, big T trauma, little T trauma.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: It's all subjective, I think, to your own experiences, but I know that the feeling, that emotion and, of course, combined with the mind, can be crippling.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: It's like how do you move past that?
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: And especially when you're on the spiritual journey or you're just your personal development, right, in general, we want to be doing things differently and taking action differently.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Right, in general, we want to be doing things differently and taking action differently.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: And yet, you know, I've noticed moments in my life where that word, you know, I think, triggers, is thrown around a lot, but it is a very real response to something and you have no control, or seemingly no control, over the way you respond, you know, and then afterwards it's like, oh my gosh, whoa, like I was completely.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: It's really challenging, right, and I think so.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: And that's the place where people get frozen a lot.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, I work a lot with with all kinds of therapists, and, but I also work with coaches, I work with teachers, I work with people who oftentimes find that whoever they're trying to help gets frozen in a moment, and that moment is usually not the moment they're in, it's usually a moment they've been triggered to in the past.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So if you're interested, let me give you a taste of it.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Sure, so sure.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, you know the easiest way to do this and I'll just use a standard tapping pattern.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: So nothing fancy and maybe we'll do something later.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: But I would ask you to think of an event in the past that when you pull up that event whether you're visual or it's a memory or a feeling, when you pull it up, you're aware that there's some stuff there that's pretty uncomfortable.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: You got one Mm-hmm, okay.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Now what I'm going to ask you to do so we can kind of know where we are is I'm going to ask you, on a zero to 10 scale, to rate how upsetting that is for you.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: So you feel that upset, right, you feel in your body.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Where do you feel in your body?
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Primarily my chest and my throat.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: And is that a tightness, a burning, a spinning Tightness?
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, a zero to ten scale.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: How uncomfortable is that right now?
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: we'd say probably like a seven okay.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: So, um, I'd ask you to just think about that.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: And as you're thinking about it, let's just try a standard tapping pattern tap on the side of your hand, just slide down from your pinky finger, and then tap under your nose, right on the on the upper lip.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Tap at the beginning of the eyebrow, now, just between the center line in the face and either eyebrow, and then tap under the eye, right on the orbital bone, not on the eye, under the eye, on the bone, and then tap under your arm.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Come down With women we just say where your bra comes across your ribs is probably the easiest.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: And now tap under your collarbone.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Now to get there, go to the notch in your throat, go down an inch or so and over an inch or so there's a little hollow spot there.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Got it?
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: You got it.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Now tap there.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Now I'm going to ask you to tap on your index finger between the better, the nail and the last.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: There you go, the last knuckle on the better than now under the collarbone point, tiny finger under the collarbone point, and that's a tapping sequence and we do something in the middle.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Um, and we're going to have you tap the back of your hand between the two small between the ring finger and the pinky finger, about a half an inch towards your wrist.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: You got it Tapping there while we do these nine things very quickly Close your eyes, open your eyes With your eyes, look down to the left With your eyes, look down to the right, whirl your eyes in a big circle.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Now back the other way in a big circle.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Hum, count one, two, three, four.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Hum again.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Now, rochelle, go back and, oh, let's tap the side of the hand Under nose, beginning of the eyebrow, under eye, under arm, under collarbone, index finger Under collarbone, tiny finger Under collarbone, tiny finger Under collarbone.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Now, however, you were thinking about this thing in the past, think about it that way again.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Are you visual?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Was it a picture?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so pull up the same picture and tell me what you notice in your body now it's not as intense as it was.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I would probably say like maybe a four now instead of seven okay.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: So, um, uh, this is something that's been around for a while, right, okay, so let's get it down further.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: You, you don't need it now.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Do you that feeling when you pull up that memory?
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: You don't need the feeling, do you okay?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: So, um, let me show you how.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Now we could just repeat what we did in terms of the stand.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: That was the standard crisis pattern that we did, but, because you're interested, I'm gonna, uh, do some muscle testing here for you.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Is it?
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: okay if I do that for you.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, say, my name is Rochelle.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: My name is Rochelle.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: My name is George.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: My name is George Okay.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Do you see the difference?
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: You got a strong test and a weak test, okay, so what I want you to do now is come back to that image and connect to the feeling and say healing this feeling.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Healing this feeling.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, nothing happens.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: You see, there's no energy, say I want to be over this.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: I want to be over this.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: I will be over this.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I will be over this.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, Tap here under your nose.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, Say I will be over this.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: You can stop tapping.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Say I will be over this.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: You can stop tapping.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Say I will be over this.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: I will be over this okay, say this feeling.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: This feeling tap the beginning of your eyebrow.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: So what I'm doing now is testing different meridians.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Now tap the back of your hand 30 times, um, different meridians that need to be tapped to find the right order that they need to be tapped in.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: And then the tiny finger between the last knuckle and the bed of the nail, towards the thumb.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Tap under the collarbone.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Say healing this feeling.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Healing this feeling okay, now let's tap on the back of your hand again.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Close your eyes, open your eyes, look down left, look down right, roll your eyes in a big circle back the other way, hum.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Count One, two, three, four.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Then hum again.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, then I want you to repeat the tap here at the beginning of the eyebrow, tap the back of the hand, tap the tiny finger, tap under the collarbone.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: All right, what are you noticing about that picture and that feeling now?
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely sort of forgot about it for a good portion of that.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: But if we're talking about it, you haven't forgotten it.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just that, it's not in your face, and how's the feeling in your chest and throat?
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: It's.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: It's lessened.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Is it still there?
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: A little bit.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: What's the number now?
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Probably like a two.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, now I don't want to take too much time, yeah, so the thing is is that if I were your therapist, I would know exactly what you were talking about, because we would have talked to death by now yeah and uh, excuse me, and I would know exactly where to go from there in terms of what's next, but that idea is that that part that has been stuck in getting triggered over all these.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Can I ask how long ago was that event?
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Probably I think about eight years ago.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about eight years ago?
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the thing is is that for eight years you get triggered and then it's like oh, everything shuts down, because you're like and that's the thing about being triggered is.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: It's not like you're having a memory, it's like you're living it again.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the problem is, as soon as you start living it again, your body reacts as though it's happening, and then it does what it did then, which is it doesn't listen to the brain at all.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like okay, I know what to do here.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: And it just takes you back to that space, as though it's happening right now.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: When we tap, we bring you more fully into this moment, because in this moment I hope none of that is going on around you.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And so you don't need to be operating from that fearful life and death.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Love, no love place.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of what it feels like.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so if we're working with somebody to move through this and and learning these, these, uh, like tapping techniques or um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, not formulas, uh, well, we, we call them algorithms.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Algorithms, okay, standard patterns that seem to work, and you could either.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: You know, it depends on how much time you want to spend learning this stuff.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can teach people this basic crisis pattern, which is what we did in a matter of a couple of hours, and really give them tools they can go out and work with in a matter of a couple of hours and really give them tools they can go out and work with.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: If you want to know what the 14 different algorithms are you know anxiety, panic, embarrassment, shame, those kinds of things you can learn that and learn the tapping patterns for those things.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: So you don't have to do muscle testing.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: You just let your client lead you to which one of those they need, and sometimes you have to try a couple of them.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: But you can get it.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can learn all that in a day.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: You know the muscle testing stuff I can teach people.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: That's another day.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: And if you want to learn to do it at a distance and throw in working with chakras in thought field therapy, we have protocols for working in the chakra system not just the meridian system but in the chakra system and we also work with other centers and energy centers of the body.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: But I'm saying that it depends on how much energy you want to invest in learning how to do these things.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: You can certainly do it.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: See, that's the thing I love about this.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: There's no magic to any of this.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I know people who see auras.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: I know people who are intuitives and they have an experience that I think is pretty real.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: But the problem is I don't see auras and you're not going to.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: I think is pretty real, but the problem is I don't see a reason you're not going to teach me to see them.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Now, I don't mean to throw a challenge out to the world, but I know lots of people and that's just not my thing.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: But I can teach anybody how to muscle test and I can teach anybody how to use these protocols, so it doesn't require any special gifts.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, if we're like we, let's say like we've learned a algorithm, a specific one that works for us, like, let's just say the specific emotion that I just moved through and that specific way that I, like you, taught me to tap through it.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: And let's say I'm a client and I've learned that, if I'm, you know, this specific thing is something I've been working with for eight years.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I've done a lot of work, I've gone to therapy, emdr, all the things, and it still presents itself a little bit sometimes and I had a moment, even this weekend, where I was completely caught off guard.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I started crying and I was with somebody I felt really safe around and it just and I was like whoa, I did not expect that.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: So if, like, if we're in a moment like that, is that like just right there, then in there, just take a pause and just use that exact thing Okay.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I am a shameless tapper.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I will tap anywhere, anytime.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Because I know that that's a way to heal what's going on with me and my you know.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: What happens is will you ever be triggered by that again, now that we've tapped?
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, maybe, but if you do, tapping will bring you back into the moment.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: See, I like to say that it's like memories are wonderful things.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Memories are like pictures on the shelf.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: You get to pick them up, you look at them, you remember when they were done, you remember who was there, you remember your feelings about that when you were there, and it's a wonderful thing.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: And you might have feelings about it as you're looking at it now, and then at some point you say, oh, that was nice, and you put the picture back on the shelf.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Now, the difference between having a memory, a recollection, and being triggered is that you can't put that picture back on the shelf.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: It is in your face, it is in your mind, it is in your beat and that's why it's triggering.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: So you're stuck back where it happened, as though it's happening.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: So tap brings you back into the moment, helps you heal what's left, because sometimes there's things that still need to be healed from events that happened in our lives and it helps you be able to do that healing.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: So that's why I think it's such a wonderful thing for dealing with post-traumatic stress and any kind of stress situations, so I like it.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and in comparison with like EMDR, like how, what are your like?
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Obviously I know there are like massive differences between the two modalities, but like um, I guess I mean I did EMDR for probably like six months to a year and in hindsight, like I guess it did lessen the weight of that specific instance, like I'm not completely, you know, unable to function due to it anymore.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Um, but you know again, and you probably think about it a little bit different than you did before.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: So I learned EMDR in the early 90s, when it first came out, and the thing is, is that Frenchin Chibero, who is the woman who developed this, a researcher, scientist.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: She would say that this is not an energetic technique, it is a cognitive technique with a physiological component.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: And so when I first learned, oh this is good stuff, I like this.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: The problem with it, though, is one they won't teach it to you unless you're a therapist, because you never know where it's going to go.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Part of the problem is that, with EMDR, you're just trying to's going to go.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Part of the problem is is that, with EMDR, you're just trying to follow these memory channels, and you're not quite sure where they're going to go or how they're going to go.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: So it's a little tricky.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: You have to be able to make sure that, when somebody leaves your office, they're in a better place and they're not still being triggered or overwhelmed by those feelings.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: So EMDR has some value, because it helps us really explore some of those things.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: But when I learned thought field therapy, I stopped doing EMDR, and I wouldn't say look, if you've got to choose between going to a therapist who knows EMDR and doesn't know EMDR, I'd say EMDR is going to get you further than most cognitive therapists will.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: So that's a big difference.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I, yeah, I definitely remember having memories come up that I'm like I had no idea that was even connected, right.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Or I mean there's one memory that I have that I worked on so much that at this point I'm like I don't even know what the memory actually was Right, like continuing to like revisit and reprogram it and like try and think of different things, and I'm like I don't even know what the original memory was.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: I have no idea and I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: But what I'm hearing is that you know EMDR, like you said, it's more like the memories, the mental thing, whereas TFT is more working in the present and with the emotions and it doesn't need and with what you're feeling physiologically.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: The problem with memory is that it's a pretty plastic thing.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: It can change, and every time you pull up a memory and you reconsolidate that memory, you change it.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Now, oftentimes that's not changing it to be a more pleasant experience or a more less powerful experience, but it's.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: The reality is is that memories are not stagnant things, and so when you start playing with memories, you want to be careful that you're not creating a worse situation, a worse memory.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: I remember at the end of those sessions my therapist would like we'd pack it up in a box and we'd hide it somewhere to come back like next time you know, put a lock on that box, just so I could like function outside of there.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't know, but I mean it was helpful in the moment, right.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: The things that we were bringing up were very, very fresh, right, and very like in the moment.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: You know, it was a lot at the time.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: It's a different experience now, but I mean I value the experience for what I had, but I still felt like there was a lot to be worked through.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: That was still remaining after that.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: And I think you know like with what this sounds like is I would have the tool to then work on it myself as it continued to come up, yeah, and and we, we all have our own internal healing processes and we all have ways that we can be better.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: And you know, 40 years ago, when I was doing trauma work, most of it consisted of me sitting with someone, maybe holding their hand, and witnessing the violence that was done to them so that they were not alone and they knew they were not alone while that was happening.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Now, was that powerful?
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Was that healing Absolutely?
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: And it was healing in a way that I couldn't describe to you because it was following their inner healer their inner wisdom about oh, it's safe now to talk with Bob about this and to explore it in a different way from a different place.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Now, that was very powerful.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: But, man, it's hard on you, it's hard on you, it's hard on them, and it's hard on you when the best you can do is to bear witness to their violence.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: And so this, this form doesn't.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: You don't necessarily have to hold the energy yourself, but you're still doing significant work with it.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because they're doing the work and oftentimes, after people have dealt with the trigger or they've done it, they're going to want to tell you what's going on, because they're going to want to say how do I make sense out of this in my life, how do I make sense out of this in terms of my own self definition and where I want to go?
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: So there is value in having therapy.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: And.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I just I think that knowing how to tap, though, is a way to move much faster through those processes.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: You know and I I've been gifted by so many people with their stories, some of them pretty horrific to know that tapping can move you through it much faster and doesn't leave you stuck there with it.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: So I'm just interested.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: So if you pull up that memory you had a few minutes ago, I just think I'd be interested.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: What's happening with it now?
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: How does it feel?
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: It feels very minimal now compared to when I first brought it up.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Right, yeah, see, and that's what we want we want you to have.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Everybody needs to have access to their memories.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: They need to have access to their story.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: It's how they define themselves, it's how they find themselves, it's how they journey.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: So we want you to be able to do that without having to get overwhelmed.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this can also be with just like a specific emotion and not necessarily a memory attached to it, like if you're dealing with maybe anger, but you don't necessarily know where it's coming from and it continues to present.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: You can just specifically work just with the emotion.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Right If you say I'm just feeling so angry now and I don't know where it's coming from or where it's okay, let's tap.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: You, bring the anger down and you will be surprised at how easily you're able to identify the source and the target of that anger.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: But you won't do it when you're in the midst of it.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's just too scary in too many ways to make that work yeah, how did you, or how were you drawn specifically to like trauma work?
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: And in my early twenties I went to college and I was a volunteer at something called the help center at San Diego state university and they taught me how to do basic crisis intervention and oftentimes basic crisis intervention is a traumatic stress work and so I learned how to do that.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: I found that I was naturally gifted at being able to make deep emotional connections with people very quickly and being able to help them feel safe and be able to move through it.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: You know, sometimes it was people were calling because they were being traumatized by the fact that they were about to be drafted.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they were calling because they were traumatized by memories of their childhood.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: Now that they've got out, they're in college in a way, things are coming up and they didn't know with it.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Sometimes people were just having a bad trip and needed to hear it's the drugs trip and needed to hear it's the drugs, it's going to be okay, we're with you.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: So I started doing that and then from that I just started paying attention to.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I saw too much violence in the world and wanted to find ways to help people with that.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I got a master's degree in social work and then later a PhD in psychology, with an emphasis in family therapy.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: In all of those cases I'm looking for where's the original pain, where's the original injury, and how do we heal you from that and then grow you to what you need to be.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: And how do you I mean like before you learned this specific modality?
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: How would you not like take that on yourself?
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, I, I did.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I was about in 96.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: You got to understand I'd been doing.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: You know, I got my master's in 79.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: And so I've been doing this for a while and I was actually at a place in my life where I was thinking I need to stop being a therapist and I need to stop working with people who are bringing to me this pain, because it was getting to be too much for me.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: It was affecting me.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: But as soon as I learned thought field therapy from Dr Callahan and I learned that I could heal that in myself, I don't hold on to it anymore.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, I may cry with somebody while I'm sitting in the office with them, when I'm tapping with them, but if I'm driving home and they're running through it or I'm getting triggered into some past event, I'm going to tap yeah, so I've been able to continue to do the work.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: I love that, yeah, when I first went to I've gone to college a few times, but when I first went I started in psychology and I feel like I'm just such a sensitive and not to say that, you know, psychologists are not sensitive, I that's not at all what I mean but I just I remember like hearing stories or just like reading case studies, and I was just like I don't know if I can do this right To be able to like separate myself from the situation and like things that I had been through, and so I I ended up not going that route.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: I, you know, I went through a coaching program later on in life, but I just think it's it is also very needed, you know, and I think Well, coaching is is different in a sense.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: The reality is is that one of the things cause?
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I've trained therapists and I you know, one of the things I try to teach people is to say well, I can't help anybody, I'm so messed up, I've got all of this history of my own stuff.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: I just go over the edge all the time.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: My response is so what If you can tell the difference between what's your stuff and what's their stuff, then you can help them with their stuff.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: But if you can't tell the difference, then you're lost.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you don't have to be healed or somebody special to be able to help somebody else if you can just keep yourself out of the way.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: So you probably would have made a fine therapist.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: You would have learned how oh, that's their stuff and not mine, so I can live with that.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: But you know that's that's part of being a therapist and you know, and that's not cut out for everybody and I'm glad you went back and got some experience in coaching.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Coaching is a very different thing from my perspective.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: I've never was trained as a coach, but I've worked with a lot of coaches and you know the bottom line is coaches are not supposed to deal with that stuff.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Coaches are supposed to ask you the right question to take you to the next step.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's tapping is very helpful in coaching, especially with TFT, because you don't have to explore.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: You're sitting with, with your client and you can see there's an emotional reaction to it.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: You don't have to go into.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, let's figure that all out here.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Let's tap and then see if we can go back to what we were talking about.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: What is your next plan?
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: What is your next objective, without having to go into this?
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, we're going to figure out your childhood.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: That's not whether they're that's not what you want to do with them, but the tapping can help you move to that next question.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my specific modalities I guess that I would like lean into is astrology and human design.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: I know, on the like um scheduling thing, I asked for your birth information because I just, I just I find it really fascinating where it's like um, I don't know the right, it's not like a blueprint, but I think it is, I don't know.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: It is helpful, I think, to understand that aspect and not it's not a solution, it's not like the thing Right, but I think for some people it can be helpful.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: That was the thing that helped me understand myself.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Right, whereas like I had gone through different modalities and I was like, oh my gosh.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: Right, whereas like I had gone through different modalities and I was like, oh my gosh, okay, well, this it was an acceptance, and I think when you accept parts of yourself that you may not want to accept previously, right.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the value of it is is also that it provides you with a way to a language to talk about what your experience is.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: To talk about what your experience is, and not just in a language, but also a formulation, a conceptualization of how you are in the world.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: That can be very, very helpful, I think, to helping you say okay, so what does this mean?
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Or where am I going?
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: I mean I have no problem with people doing that, I'm just not trained in it I mean I have had my chart done several times by different people and I always find it interesting and makes me think, oh okay, well, maybe there's something there that I need to pay attention to.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: it's all cyclical, right.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: So I mean, we're looking at like patterns in history and you know, and so you know, I've been studying it for maybe like five years, so I'm still learning.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: When there's certain like things that are happening and I'm like, oh my gosh, then I can look back to, like you know, a hundred years ago, 200 years, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, like the it's just like continuing to repeat those patterns.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: It's just really interesting Now.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: What I would say to you is if you're reading, done a chart for somebody, and you're sitting down with them and going through it with them and you see them start to become overwhelmed by emotion good or bad that they're not listening to you anymore because that's too strong, yeah, let's stop for a second here.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Let's do a little tapping, bring them back to a place where they can come into the experience more fully and be able to hear what you're saying and for them to be able to use their brain to kind of make sense out of it.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: For them.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: And do you combine any sort of I know you've said a couple of times, not inner child, what's the terminology that you used, inner?
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Child work.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as you're, as you're working with clients.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: So is not that that has to be a spiritual thing, but I think it sounds a little bit like.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, Virginia Satir came up with this inner family work, inner child work, you know, 40 years ago, 50 years ago.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: So it's a way to think about and to understand what's going on with people.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I've been trained in a lot of different therapies over the years and I use those pieces as makes sense to help people put together their own formulation about who I am.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: How did I get to where I am?
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Where do I want to go, given how this all works?
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: So I think you know a therapist should be able to tell you how are you thinking about this and where.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: What are the steps that we're taking?
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: If you're doing psychotherapy, see to me, there's crisis intervention.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Crisis intervention is you come to me because something has happened, your world is blown up one way or another and you're not functioning in that world at all because it's a blown up world, right?
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: So as a crisis interventionist, my job is to help you come back to your previous level of functioning.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: So I'm not going to go in and help you heal your childhood stuff.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to say how are you going to think about getting here to here when you don't have a car anymore?
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: You know, and get you to be able to say all right, I can, I can operate again.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: That's crisis intervention.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: Then there's counseling, which is something bad has happened to you, for example, and you know that your life has it's more than your life has blown up.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: It's your life has changed and you need to figure out how you're going to operate within those new parameters.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: And a counselor is a really good person to help you do that, because counselors are going to help you be the problem solver, given what you have in front of you and who you are See.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: And it's different.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: In crisis intervention we're not so much into problem solving, we're just more into reactivating your functional systems and getting you back to doing what you do before.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: As a counselor, I'm going to help you figure out how to be a better problem solver.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: As a counselor, I'm going to help you be able to recognize what you didn't see before.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe, how to assess people in a different way, so those kinds of things.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: I can teach those skills as a counselor.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: And then a psychotherapist is somebody who goes in and says whoa, let's look at what happened to you in this event and what happens is then.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: That shapes how you perceive the world and react to the world.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Heal up enough to be able to perceive differently, to be able to react in this way.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: That's different than what you've learned in your primary events.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: So those are crisis intervention, counseling, psychotherapists.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: Those are different ways of helping people.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: A coach helps, but a coach doesn't do.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: A coach is going to use a set of techniques to activate, energize the person's internal systems.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: They're not going to really help them, establish them or to change them, but just to activate them.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: That's how.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: I see it anyway, yeah, yeah.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: And so do you primarily do crisis intervention, or you're you kind of do counseling and all of it now?
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I've done it a lot.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, at this point I still do.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: I'm doing 15 clinical hours a week of therapy and it and I should say some of it's crisis intervention.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: You know, somebody calls me up and says this just happened to me or my child, how am I going to get through this?
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's crisis intervention.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: Somebody says you know what?
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: I've been living this for a long time and they're telling me it's going to be another three years of going through court or whatever.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Then I'm becoming a counselor, right, sometimes they come to me and they say you know, I just need to stop doing this way of perceiving and responding to the world.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Then I'm doing psychotherapy.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: So I do some of that.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: But you know, at this point in my life, the good thing about being 72-year-old I get to do what I want to do life.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: The good thing about being 72 year old I get to do what I want to do.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, my wife and I, we work when we want to work, how we want to work, and we don't have to do anything.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: But part of my mission is to try to bring less, to reduce the violence in the world, and in order to do that, we have to heal people who have experienced violence, both doing it and receiving it, and to do that requires some tapping, and so I'm real into continuing to therapy.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I'm real into continuing.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: I do this four-day training live and in person.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: The next one's in San Diego, if you want to come April 11 through the 14th and teach people.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Well, what I really say is I share the gifts that Dr Callahan gave me.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: I take people through a process of understanding how he thought, how it worked and where we are today, because it's been evolving even after his death in 2013.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Have been evolving even after his death in 2013.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: So that's what I love to do.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: I love watching people as they go oh, this works, they feel better.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: So if you can't make the training this time, I'm going to do it again, probably in October, but it brings me so much joy to be in a world where people are helping one another.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: And how can people I mean if you're listening and you're in San Diego check it out for you said 11th April, 11th.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the 11th through the 14th, and you don't have to be a therapist to come.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: It's about engaging yourself and other people without fear, fearlessly, and you can get information.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: Go to my website, r-l-b-r-a-y that's my name, robert L Bray, so it's just R-L-B-R-A-Ycom, and you can go to my website.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: If you have questions for me, you can send me an email, rlbray at rlbraycom, and I'd be more than willing to help people begin to do this themselves.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: You can't hurt yourself with tapping.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: Either it works or it does nothing at all.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: And there's tapping on my site.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: I have a YouTube that shows me doing the tapping that I did with you and the first time around, and you can do that, and then you feel better, and then you can think, and then you can plan.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: More importantly, you can act in the ways that fit who you are.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's huge.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: That's what we're all trying to do, right.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: It's just to move through it and find something that will support us through that.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: So I think it's yeah, find something that will support us through that.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: So I think it's yeah.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing all of this.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: I will definitely link everything up in the show notes and I don't know if there's any like final words that you want to leave the listeners with.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: It's okay to take a risk.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: It's okay to try something when you feel like you can't do anything and when it doesn't necessarily make sense to you.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Follow your inner wisdom and do something.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: It froze for a moment oh.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: No, it's okay.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: It's that you were saying follow your inner wisdom, and then it sort of froze for a minute.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: Follow your inner wisdom, find a way to be safe and do something.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being here and for sharing safe and do something.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being here and for sharing everything and your wisdom.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: It's been such a pleasure talking to you you.