Latest / FOLLOW / What if the problem isn't the pain, but the picture? /// FOLLOW with Nirup Alphonse

Transcript

What if the problem isn't the pain, but the picture? /// FOLLOW with Nirup Alphonse · FOLLOW

0:00
SPEAKER_03: So much of suffering is really a culture that is bred to never have to wait.
0:06
SPEAKER_03: Nothing good in life comes without crushing and pressing an opposition.
0:10
SPEAKER_03: The best wine is crushed unless we are willing to embrace and endure and learn to love the process.
0:17
SPEAKER_03: I don't think we'll ever experience what it means to truly walk in the glory of Christ.
0:22
SPEAKER_03: And I and I just think the road, the road to glory is paved on the path of suffering.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Follow Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus is right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he says is true.
0:45
SPEAKER_02: So that's what we're exploring.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: All that Jesus said was true, and how to rearrange our lives around it.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got a very special guest who released his first book into the wild.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: You got a dress to impress.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: That is true.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh, which I didn't.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: I uh wished I would have thought about.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: I should have called you because that that would be true.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited about our guest today.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: I think um every time I'm with this guy, honestly, I think he might be one of the best question askers I've been around, maybe in a long time.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: Because he's always asking really good questions, and um, you know, I like to hear myself talk.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: That is a very I think he's I think it's it's wild because like I haven't spent a ton of one-on-one time with this guy.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: I've just uh listened to a bunch of his messages, but we we text a ton back and forth, and uh yeah, I was gonna say thoughtful.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: Like he's just like sople, very, very thoughtful.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: So thought is he a Bears fan?
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, he is.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: See, I knew if I even threw it out there, he would not be able to remain quiet.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: So, with that, ladies and gentlemen, um, our introduction, um you know, honestly, bro, Nairoop, I'm so excited that you're hanging with us for a little bit, but uh do this.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you are in the world, what you're up to.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: Just just give give the people a little bit of an intro.
2:43
SPEAKER_03: Man, well, I'm pumped to be here.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: I I currently live in Denver, Colorado, but I'm from the great nation of Chicago.
2:50
SPEAKER_03: We rep everything Chicago, the pizza, the hot dogs, the bears.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: We gotta pray for the we gotta pray for the cubs right now.
2:56
SPEAKER_03: We gotta we gotta seek the Lord and inquire in his temple for the cubs right now.
3:01
SPEAKER_03: But I'm from Chicago, but I I lived half my life overseas.
3:04
SPEAKER_03: And so I kind of see the world in an interesting way.
3:06
SPEAKER_03: I grew up overseas.
3:08
SPEAKER_03: All of my friends were international friends, so I didn't know a ton of Americans until I moved to America.
3:14
SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, I feel like my my perspective is a little bit international of where I grew up and then moving to Chicago.
3:18
SPEAKER_03: And then we planted a church in Denver, Colorado, 11 years ago now, which has been, you know, no one told me that Denver was not the South.
3:28
SPEAKER_03: Someone should have told me Denver was a South.
3:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but everybody goes to church, everybody loves Jesus, and your church will be packed by tomorrow, but it's not the case.
3:36
SPEAKER_03: But no, God's doing good stuff, and and it's been a gift to connect with you both because I've seen you both from a distance, and I just I just hounded you both until you became my friends.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: I remember you coming to town, man, for real.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: I remember uh when you first showed up in Denver and interacting then, and I was, I've always thought you asked some of the some of the best questions, and it's not necessarily um, I just think you have a lot of curiosity, you want to learn.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: You you're a learner.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: So I I always appreciate that.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: Every time I see you, I'm always excited.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, even though we're gonna be at the same conference here next week, and I probably won't get to hang out with you, which makes me sad.
4:18
SPEAKER_03: I'll let you be with I I tell everybody that Eric Parks is a genius 50 years ahead of his time.
4:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean that's the problem, isn't it?
4:27
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that there?
4:29
SPEAKER_02: Little little Van Gogh, little Van Gogh.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, I'm gonna be dead and gone before anybody understands anything I'm saying.
4:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but it's a it's a g I'm like all your discipleship stuff you show me.
4:41
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, this man is a genius.
4:42
SPEAKER_03: How is he you're like the best kept secret under the radar, stealth fighter?
4:49
SPEAKER_02: I am a stealth fighter, I am a stealth fighter.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, well, I just I get to be around good people like you.
4:55
SPEAKER_02: I I I'm so uh if the Lord keeps opening doors to sit around with people like you guys, that's a pretty good deal.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: So um hey, before we keep going, can I ask you something?
5:07
SPEAKER_02: What if following Jesus isn't mostly about knowing more, but actually rearranging your life around what he said is true?
5:15
SPEAKER_02: Because that's the belief behind everything we do at follow.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: If Jesus is right about God, life, and the soul, then his way is worth actually living.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: Now, here's the thing following Jesus, it is a journey, it can be slow, it is intentional, and sometimes it is a little bit disorienting, but you don't have to have it all figured out.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: You just need a next step.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: So, start with the follow guide.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: It is a 30-day guided journey with one reading and one practice each day designed to help you take what Jesus taught and begin putting it into practice.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: Go through it on your own, with a friend, or with a group, and that's just the beginning.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: The follow library includes guides to the words of Jesus and prayer, and with more to come on practices like scripture, rest, and so much more, all created to help you keep rearranging your everyday life around what Jesus said is true.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: But you don't have to change everything today, you just need to take your next step along his way.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: So visit follow thewayofjesus.com.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: Start that journey today.
6:29
SPEAKER_02: We open up all of our shows actually for our listeners.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: This is brand new.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: You can play along too.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, this is a brand new bit we like to call name it.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you're familiar with the feeling wheel.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: I use it all the time.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: Find out where people are at, but here I'm gonna ask you two questions coming into this set.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: Listeners, you can think about wherever you're at.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: You might be on a walk, you're listening.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: Where are you at?
6:55
SPEAKER_02: But the question is you you pick one feeling coming in.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: How are you feeling?
7:00
SPEAKER_02: And then the second thing of name it, and this is the fun part.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: What is the smallest thing this week that just like kept you going or made your week?
7:09
SPEAKER_02: Like the smallest grace can be anything.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh, Carter, do you want to go first?
7:14
SPEAKER_02: You want me to go first?
7:15
SPEAKER_00: I'll go first.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh very very easy.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: I would say playful.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh, knowing that uh I get to see Luke Peach, our producer.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: Always makes me playful and connecting with you, Parks and Nairou.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: And then I think a little bit of joy uh that that just came was on Monday night.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: A 38-year-old quarterback coming in to lead the Bears to defeat Philly.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: Unbelievable.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: It looked like that game when he was on Minnesota, just I know was it throwing dimes.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: So my goodness.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, my feelings this morning, uh, my feeling check, naming it.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: Honest man, I'm feeling a little bit bummed out.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: I um I've been working so hard on just not always saying what is in my mind.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: And uh I feel like six out of seven days, I'm pretty good.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: And then yesterday I just had some stuff boiling in my brain.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I think I need to say this out loud.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: And then I did and regretted it the moment it came out of my mouth.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: So anybody been married probably knows that journey.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, my but here's my little grace.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: Similar to you, my grace.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh well, no, I was gonna I was gonna say football.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: Football was the I I was gonna say I've never seen anything like it, except this is what we do in Denver, Colorado, uh, is uh football games like that.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: No, I uh I just got got off of a little 30-year anniversary trip with my wife, and we were in this tiny little village in Italy eating unbelievable pasta dishes all day long.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: And but but the little grace wasn't the pasta dishes, they make these little crunchy round cracker things that they would they would give give you every time you went out, and I couldn't stop eating them.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: And every time I ate them, I Chrissy's like, you're you start eating them and you just start smiling.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: I just sit there with crap crumbs in my beard smiling.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: It was amazing.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: So that was that was my grace for this week.
9:35
SPEAKER_02: All right, man.
9:36
SPEAKER_03: Name it feelings wheel.
9:38
SPEAKER_03: I would say I'm uh I'm apprehensive is one of my feelings I have when my wife and I are in the middle of building a house, which man, come Lord Jesus.
9:46
SPEAKER_03: We we built the Taj Mahal in India with nothing, man.
9:48
SPEAKER_03: No permits, no city inspections, nothing.
9:53
SPEAKER_03: And you can't breathe in this country without inspections and inflation and prices are going up, and all your budget that we put together for the house build last year is just trash.
10:02
SPEAKER_03: I mean, just absolute garbage.
10:04
SPEAKER_03: Throw it away.
10:05
SPEAKER_03: So apprehensive for sure, and then excited because our new front door for the new house shows up today.
10:13
SPEAKER_03: Hey, let's go.
10:14
SPEAKER_03: I gotta do the I gotta do the work of taking out the existing door and putting a new LVL and framing it and putting the new door in.
10:21
SPEAKER_03: But I'm excited because I think about all the people that are gonna walk through that door and praying that in our home they experience a lot of joy and shalom and peace.
10:31
SPEAKER_03: It's a place of safety, it's a place of belonging.
10:34
SPEAKER_03: And so everyone has to go through that front door to get in.
10:37
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm kind of excited to do the work of getting that door in to kind of step back and say, Man, they walked through something that we got to put in, put in place.
10:46
SPEAKER_03: So I think I'm excited about that.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: I love it, man.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, that is that is a fun grace.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: Are you handy then?
10:53
SPEAKER_02: Are you are you a pretty handy dude?
10:55
SPEAKER_03: No, I just tell people I know how to read.
10:57
SPEAKER_03: It's it's surprising to me.
10:58
SPEAKER_03: Everyone's how do you know how to do that?
11:00
SPEAKER_03: How do you put that in?
11:01
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I just I read, man.
11:02
SPEAKER_03: If you can if you can read and you just take your time to slow down and study structural engineering plans, it all begins to make sense when you just read.
11:11
SPEAKER_03: Or you know somebody who knows how to interpret it and you just say, Hey man, what exactly does this mean?
11:16
SPEAKER_03: It's so it's it's so interesting.
11:18
SPEAKER_03: It's the way in which people will ask one of us, hey, what does this Bible verse mean?
11:24
SPEAKER_03: Like it's so strange, it's a different language.
11:26
SPEAKER_03: If you find an engineer, a contractor, a builder, and just say, What does this diagram 2.1 mean?
11:32
SPEAKER_03: And they explain it to you, it makes total sense.
11:34
SPEAKER_03: And then you can do it.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Legos for adults.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: That's what that's what you're doing, bro.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: That's what you're doing.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: Do I got cuts all over my hands?
11:41
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like a real man.
11:42
SPEAKER_03: I finally have calluses that are not from playing a guitar.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: Like these are, you know, like real calluses, real manly work here.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Dude, I'll tell you, when I go to Home Depot, uh nothing creates low-grade anxiety like pulling up to Home Depot or Ace Hardware.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Because I do not feel like a man.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to do anything.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: And so I pray this simple breath prayer: Lord, father me through this.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Just follow me through this.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: And every time someone in an orange apron comes and is like, you can do this.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: And I I realized like, I need that little pep talk.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: You can do this, you can do this, you can do this.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: I believe in you.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: You can do this, you got this.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: And and then I go home and my wife does it.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: But it's like we were we're like, it's it's uh, it's it's impressive.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: So that's amazing.
12:31
SPEAKER_03: I have the opposite problem at Home Depot.
12:34
SPEAKER_03: I feel like no one knows what they're talking about.
12:35
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, no, that's certainly not what that is, sir.
12:37
SPEAKER_03: It's you're like that's not even in the right aisle.
12:39
SPEAKER_03: No, sir.
12:40
SPEAKER_03: I I have really HVAC.
12:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:43
SPEAKER_03: We're in HVAC.
12:44
SPEAKER_03: I'm not talking about roofing right now.
12:45
SPEAKER_03: And so like, do you need me to work here?
12:47
SPEAKER_03: Do you you want me to so now I'm helping I'm helping customers?
12:50
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, sir, you do not want a 3-4 gauge on that.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: You definitely want a one-inch to get more water in.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: He just follows the Home Depot guy around.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: You're like, hey, nope, nope.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Don't listen to that guy.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh-uh.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Nope.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: That's just where we let Nairoop know that this episode is sponsored by Home Depot.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're sponsored by Home Depot.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Home Depot.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love it, man.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, bro, we have been, we're in this series uh that we've been talking about.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we we used it's British and I it's Australian.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: It's a phrase called cracking on.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, you you see those signs though everywhere.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: It's like uh what what what's that sign, the British sign that's everywhere?
13:31
SPEAKER_02: Be calm and carry on.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're not helpful.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, but we we've been in this series cracking on where we've just been talking about struggling well.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, what does that look like?
13:49
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think there's sometimes in some Christian circles this idea that life with Jesus is always up into the right.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, the problem with the theology is that if you then have struggle or pain or something, it's pretty easy to go, well, what am I doing wrong?
14:11
SPEAKER_02: And so we just have fundamentally uh been addressing the reality of life as Jesus said, in this life, you're gonna have some troubles.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: And so, how do we struggle well?
14:24
SPEAKER_02: Uh, how do we crack on?
14:26
SPEAKER_02: So that's what we've been in, Nairobi.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm excited to talk to you about this and and hear some of your perspectives as a pastor.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: I don't think you oh no, you mentioned you planted a church, but tell us just a little bit about your congregation.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: Who you who are you pastoring these days?
14:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're in Denver, and it's hard to it's kind of hard to believe this because you know Denver is a predominantly white city.
14:49
SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's very vanilla out here.
14:52
SPEAKER_03: I I heard a comedian say, man, Denver.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: People can't see you.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: People can't see you.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: So talk a little bit about you said you grew up internationally, but talk a little bit about international.
15:01
SPEAKER_03: I grew up international.
15:02
SPEAKER_03: My skin tone is the color of a nice chai, a nice caramel hue, you know.
15:07
SPEAKER_03: So I grew up, I grew up in India.
15:08
SPEAKER_03: I'm I was born in Singapore, raised to Indian missionaries overseas.
15:13
SPEAKER_03: But my world is international.
15:15
SPEAKER_03: So when I moved to Denver, some you know, I lived in DC, I've lived in Seattle, I lived in Portland, I've lived in Texas, I've lived in East Coast, West Coast.
15:24
SPEAKER_03: I come to Denver, I'm like, wow, this is it's very vanilla out here.
15:27
SPEAKER_03: I saw a comedian say the other day, and I died.
15:29
SPEAKER_03: He said, Man, Denver is so white, even the black people are gluten-free.
15:32
SPEAKER_03: I died when he said that.
15:36
SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
15:37
SPEAKER_03: But but I say that all that to say is our church is 70 represented by 70 nations.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: So it's an incredibly multi-ethnic church.
15:45
SPEAKER_03: We do stuff in different languages, songs in different languages, verses in different languages, incredibly multi-ethnic.
15:51
SPEAKER_03: The average age is about 25.
15:54
SPEAKER_03: So I I would say while we are diverse ethnically, we're not necessarily diverse in socioeconomic.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: For the most part, everyone is highly educated.
16:02
SPEAKER_03: They come to Denver for advanced education, and they're here because the tech, the medical, the finance, whatever.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: So we're we're a very ethnic church in that sense, but are very educated.
16:11
SPEAKER_03: But the average age is 25.
16:12
SPEAKER_03: And so you look around and it's predominantly Gen Z, young millennial, and now of course Alpha's on the rise.
16:19
SPEAKER_03: And the only grandparents we have, boomers or or Gen X, are because their adult children are going to church and they're saying, Well, I want to, I want to go check out what this is and be a part of it.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: So, but and they have young energy, which is great.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: Let me say this though.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh being a grandparent, the only grandparent in this room, bro, I'd come to your church.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: I'd represent that demographic, that young energy right now, bro.
16:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you got young energy.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: So I tell people, if you got young energy, you'll love it here.
16:47
SPEAKER_03: You'll you'll absolutely love it here.
16:50
SPEAKER_03: So I mean, it's young, it's vibrant, it's hungry for the Lord.
16:53
SPEAKER_03: There is a sense of passion for worship, for God's presence.
16:57
SPEAKER_03: Uh, what young people bring to the table, and we'll talk about this later, is really a high sense of justice, a high sense of, man, this is unjust.
17:03
SPEAKER_03: We live in a world that's unjust, and how do we move towards that?
17:06
SPEAKER_03: And of course, there's helping guide that, guide that heart towards that.
17:09
SPEAKER_03: And so that's the kind of church we lead.
17:11
SPEAKER_03: And our church is odd because we are we are as high church as we are charismatic.
17:15
SPEAKER_03: And so we do a lot of liturgy, um, but we'll still do expressive worship.
17:19
SPEAKER_03: Uh, we'll read, we'll preach the Bible strong, but then we'll do corporate confessions together.
17:24
SPEAKER_03: We do, we're very sacramental, so we do communion every single Sunday.
17:28
SPEAKER_03: It's the central aspect of our gathering.
17:30
SPEAKER_03: And then our formation is unique.
17:32
SPEAKER_03: You know, this this always confuses people when I say we don't have your kind of typical evangelical driven from the 1980s small groups.
17:40
SPEAKER_03: We're not gonna, we're not gonna sign you up for your spiritual play dates.
17:43
SPEAKER_03: We're gonna help equip you and train you to go and discover and build fellowship in your life, and we'll come alongside of you, but I'm not gonna organize it for you.
17:51
SPEAKER_03: So it's it's unique that a church as as large as we are has all of those components mixed in together.
17:57
SPEAKER_03: But it I mean, but it's messy, man.
17:58
SPEAKER_03: Like I would love to tell you it's it's a perfect you know, little thing and everyone's in harmony together, but it's a lot of reconciliation work, it's a lot of rest restoration work, a lot of brokenness because you're still dealing with people and the brokenness that people carry wherever they go.
18:12
SPEAKER_03: And so really trying to be patient and empathetic and kind to people as they're growing in the Lord together.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: So it's it's but it's man, it's incredible.
18:19
SPEAKER_03: And I've learned a ton from you guys, you know.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: Every time I think a sermon crushes, I watch Steve's sermon on Sunday.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, my gosh, no doubt sucked yesterday.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: No doubt, young energy.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: I like that phrase.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: I like that phrase.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh when you think about the young and the youthfulness that your church has, and thinking about this idea of cracking on, what's the story, the mental model, the mindset that that young energy believes about the word suffering?
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And where do you where do you think they get it from?
19:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's really good.
19:11
SPEAKER_03: I you know I would say Leonard Sachs is one of my favorite writers.
19:15
SPEAKER_03: And he says, one of the reasons that this generation really struggles, and he calls them fragile, and he's not using it in a derogatory sense.
19:22
SPEAKER_03: He's using it in a real broken sense.
19:24
SPEAKER_03: They're very fragile, is because they're disconnected to a story.
19:28
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the problem.
19:29
SPEAKER_03: I think so many young adults are disconnected to a greater story that they're tethered to, tethered to the story of the gospel, tethered to the story of their parents, to their grandparents, to their upbringing, and what's in their bones.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: I love what Schizero says.
19:40
SPEAKER_03: You know, he says, Jesus may be in your heart, but grandpa's in your bones.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: And we often don't realize the grit and the tenacity that's in generations before us that's in our bones.
19:49
SPEAKER_03: And so the story I think they believe is that they're called to navigate life alone.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: And so their view of suffering is often, God has forgotten me.
19:57
SPEAKER_03: Why am I not getting ahead?
19:59
SPEAKER_03: I must have done something wrong.
20:00
SPEAKER_03: And they haven't been prepared for a life of suffering.
20:03
SPEAKER_03: And I don't necessarily blame them as much as I blame the culture that they that they've inherited or born into.
20:08
SPEAKER_03: A lot of parents now raise their kids to never have to face any grit, any tenacity.
20:13
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I have friends who are coaches, and the number of phone calls they get from parents of why is my kid not getting playing time?
20:21
SPEAKER_03: Why is this not happening?
20:22
SPEAKER_03: I would have lost my mother-loving mind if my mom called my coach and asked why I was not getting playing time.
20:31
SPEAKER_03: But we have this all we have this in ministry where parents are like, hey, what's going on with this?
20:34
SPEAKER_03: And so I think there's a lot of overstep with parents not letting their kids suffer, not letting them kids like you got to go through heartbreak.
20:43
SPEAKER_03: You got to go through tenacity, you gotta go through things don't go your way.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: And and part of the role as pastors and leaders and parents is to help prepare a generation for suffering.
20:54
SPEAKER_03: And what is it, what does it build inside of us?
20:56
SPEAKER_03: And so I think the story they believe, Steve, is that they deserve to go through life without suffering.
21:01
SPEAKER_03: They deserve to go through life without ever being pushed back.
21:04
SPEAKER_03: They did go, they deserve to go through life with everything always going their way.
21:08
SPEAKER_03: And so when opposition hits, they don't have a strong enough foundation to withstand that opposition and keep moving forward.
21:16
SPEAKER_03: And so part of our role in ministry is to help them create the kind of sustaining story that will guide them through in seasons of suffering.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: Hey, well, uh Nairobi, let me ask you this.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you're I think I think this is the way you said it, you don't blame them uh as much as the culture they inherited.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: So if you're a 20-something that has never handled grit, what does it look like to learn that now, right?
21:45
SPEAKER_02: As an adult?
21:46
SPEAKER_02: What have you seen?
21:48
SPEAKER_02: And how do you guys as a church step into uh we'll call it the gap?
21:54
SPEAKER_02: We'll be British, mind the gap.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: How do you step into that knowing that there has been years.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: For so many people in your congregation of being uh culturally trained, uh uh within their uh family systems trained that um, you know, whether it was said implicitly or explicitly or implicitly that you shouldn't suffer.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: Well, how does a church step into that?
22:21
SPEAKER_02: What do you what does that look like for you guys?
22:23
SPEAKER_03: It's really good.
22:24
SPEAKER_03: I think you begin first with theological, have a theological understanding of what suffering is and that it's not a punishment from God.
22:31
SPEAKER_03: It is certainly like there's many reasons to suffer, right?
22:34
SPEAKER_03: That we suffer because we live in a broken world.
22:36
SPEAKER_03: And there is there's suffering because of that, because sin has entered into the world.
22:40
SPEAKER_03: There is suffering because of personal consequence to sin.
22:42
SPEAKER_03: If if you were if you did something, there's a consequence to that, there's a suffering in that.
22:46
SPEAKER_03: There's a suffering because the consequence of somebody else's sin.
22:49
SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of people who are struggling in life because they had nothing to do with their parents' divorce.
22:54
SPEAKER_03: They had nothing to do with the abuse of somebody else, and now they're suffering the consequence of that.
22:59
SPEAKER_03: There's also, you could just call providential suffering.
23:01
SPEAKER_03: The entire book of Job, God doesn't cause it, and we have no idea why, but God allows it for something that eventually leads to his glory.
23:09
SPEAKER_03: Uh and so, and then, and then there's a word, I don't know what the word would be, but there's a suffering that comes with obedience, right?
23:15
SPEAKER_03: If I'm if I'm obedient to the Lord, then I'm going to suffer.
23:18
SPEAKER_03: I could suffer persecution, or I could just suffer momentarily the dying of my flesh and the Lord crushing something inside of me that needs to be crushed.
23:27
SPEAKER_03: And so theologically helping them understand that suffering is not God forgetting you.
23:33
SPEAKER_03: Suffering is a process that God is inviting you into to build character, to build endurance, to build integrity that would ultimately reflect his glory.
23:41
SPEAKER_03: So I think that's important.
23:42
SPEAKER_03: We do that with stories.
23:43
SPEAKER_03: I think when we're preaching sermons and we're teaching, we're using stories of men and women who've gone before us.
23:48
SPEAKER_03: We're telling the stories of Sundar Singh, we're telling the stories of Corey Tenboom and Betsy Tenboom and Bonhoeffer and men and women who actually suffered because of their call to follow Jesus.
23:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
23:58
SPEAKER_03: And giving them giving them a framework for, okay, this is this is what my life with God could look like.
24:03
SPEAKER_03: And then thirdly, I think is helping them learn how to wait.
24:07
SPEAKER_03: So much of suffering is really a culture that is bred to never have to wait.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: I mean, these listen, man, these Gen Z, they don't know the pain of having to wait outside Blockbuster with your$17 and then trying to convince an 18-year-old to go get the latest outcast tape for you because you're not allowed to go inside.
24:27
SPEAKER_03: They don't know the suffering of watching a commercial on TV for a movie that's coming out and then waiting six months to go to the theater and then watch it.
24:36
SPEAKER_03: They don't know the suffering of you got to take the bus to school.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: Like, dude, I don't know a single kid, literally not one, that takes the bus to school.
24:46
SPEAKER_03: They all get dropped off by their parents.
24:48
SPEAKER_03: Like, go wait outside.
24:49
SPEAKER_03: And I'm from Chicago.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: Go wait outside in negative 60.
24:52
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
24:53
SPEAKER_03: And wait till the bus shows up.
24:54
SPEAKER_03: Because in Chicago, man, they didn't cancel school for anything.
24:58
SPEAKER_03: Nothing.
24:59
SPEAKER_03: Like you, you better go to school.
25:00
SPEAKER_03: And so they've just learned to never have to wait.
25:03
SPEAKER_03: And so so much of their suffering is I'm not in a relationship when I should be.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: I don't have kids when I should be.
25:08
SPEAKER_03: I want, I want the dream house, the dream job, the C-suite at 25 that my parents didn't get until they were 60.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: I think social media has a lot to do with this.
25:19
SPEAKER_03: We are now like when you and I were all coming up, we had no idea who was doing well.
25:24
SPEAKER_03: I mean, whether it was churches or ministry.
25:26
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we didn't know, we didn't know what NFL players' contracts were.
25:28
SPEAKER_03: Like we didn't know any of that stuff.
25:31
SPEAKER_03: And now, because all that's available at lightning speed, it's creating in us this desire for competition that I need to get it now in a deep sense of entitlement, that I I deserve it now.
25:42
SPEAKER_03: And they don't not necessarily having the grit to actually move through a process, but helping them see that man, nothing in life, nothing good in life comes without crushing and pressing an opposition.
25:55
SPEAKER_03: Nothing.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: The best wine is crushed.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: Dallas says, I think Dallas said it this way.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: I was just sketching down some notes.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: He talks about suffering in terms of uh a couple of other um roads you have to take.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: So that courage and patience and wisdom and endurance, like these things we value in humans, like we we want, like we want to be courageous and patient and wise and endure, right?
26:28
SPEAKER_02: That you can't develop these without danger and trial and hard puzzles and suffering, like the road to the the things we truly we truly value in humans, right?
26:44
SPEAKER_02: We value these things, and I know there's a narrative within our culture, and and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: Part of the world we live in is you can see you have a distorted view of like how someone is actually doing, right?
27:00
SPEAKER_02: Because of social media.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: You have this distorted view of how someone's doing, and the these distorted views have now created a collage of what the good life, quote unquote, is right.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: Except it's like then you you taste it and you realize pretty quickly it's not all that great, like it it it's it's not all that great, and so I I just think there's something in that, I read when you talk about stepping into suffering and and uh kind of connecting that to this discipleship process, it's like uh the gold of human character is dug from torturous minds, right?
27:39
SPEAKER_02: You gotta go down somewhere.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: It it's how it works.
27:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you know, I I saw this video, it was the best video I saw in discipleship all last year.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: So I went to Stevenson High School, home with Jalen Brunson.
27:53
SPEAKER_03: Steve knows him well.
27:55
SPEAKER_03: But I saw this video, um, he must have been 11 or 12 years old, and his dad is out in this basketball court pushing this kid.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this kid is crying.
28:05
SPEAKER_03: This kid is like, does not want to do this.
28:08
SPEAKER_03: And his dad says, Do you or do you not want to play in the NBA?
28:11
SPEAKER_03: Do you is this what you want?
28:13
SPEAKER_03: And Jalen's, I do want this.
28:14
SPEAKER_03: So his dad is pushing him and pushing him and pushing him and pushing him.
28:17
SPEAKER_03: And now this kid is arguably one of the greatest players in the NBA right now.
28:21
SPEAKER_03: He is a baller.
28:22
SPEAKER_03: No one, no one thought coming out of Villanova that this dude is gonna play like this, right?
28:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
28:27
SPEAKER_03: I'm watching this, I'm watching his dad push this kid.
28:30
SPEAKER_03: And I'm asking, why doesn't discipleship look like that?
28:33
SPEAKER_03: We let people get off so easily.
28:35
SPEAKER_03: We don't push them.
28:36
SPEAKER_03: We don't say, is is this what you want or not?
28:39
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to live a life of holiness?
28:41
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to walk with God closely?
28:43
SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to help push you to make this.
28:45
SPEAKER_03: And we're gonna work on your shot, and we're gonna work on it in real time.
28:48
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna push you to the point of exhaustion and keep going.
28:52
SPEAKER_03: And I think our discipleship of young people is just too easy.
28:56
SPEAKER_03: We give up too easy, we make it too easy.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: Here's three steps, do this thing, go do this practice for four days, instead of saying this is a grueling, grueling, grueling uh process, and you have got to love the process.
29:09
SPEAKER_03: And I've never found, maybe we talk about athletics, I've never found a champion that doesn't love the process more than the actual game.
29:16
SPEAKER_03: As much as I as much as I it pains me to admit that Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback who's ever played.
29:22
SPEAKER_03: The dude loves the process.
29:25
SPEAKER_03: He loves getting coached, he loves the work at practice.
29:29
SPEAKER_03: And unless young people and us, unless we are willing to embrace and endure and learn to love the process, I don't think we'll ever experience what it means to truly walk in the glory of Christ.
29:41
SPEAKER_03: And I and I just think the road, the road to glory is paved on the path of suffering.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: It just has to be I think it's so good in Ir, I like if you think about the Hebrew passage, you know, the for the joyset before he means dured the cross.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's like in one sense, um we want the joy without the cross, but we also like the joy of the process to even go through the cross, not knowing um the resurrection on the other side.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh we all know the word Eucharist, but there's another word that I've been thinking a lot about.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: Um 1939, J.R.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: Token gave a lecture and then it led to an essay, I think, in 47, um uh on fairy stories.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: But he used this word called eukatastrophe, and was basically like this concept of this um unexpected, joyous turn for the better.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's almost seeing what the catastrophe can teach us, what is on the other side of the struggle if we're willing to do the work, if we're willing to have that vision um to say, oh, I actually actually trust God enough that there's gonna be something in this that's gonna shape and form me, that the catastrophe is not gonna have the the the last word.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: There's actually gonna be some goodness and shaping and forming in it.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: When you look at like the young energy, what is like what do they get right that has taught you about how to suffer well or how to face suffering?
31:47
SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes it can be so easy to take a shot at them.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Not that you are doing that in any way, shape, or form, but I just think oftentimes older generations could look down.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: I love the way you speak of your congregation, the curiosity that you hold and and you see them and you see them so well.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, what have you learned that you go, man, I wish I would have learned that in my 20s when it when it comes to facing suffering?
32:13
SPEAKER_03: Man, here's what I would say they bring to the table.
32:15
SPEAKER_03: They bring a curiosity to the scriptures where they are willing to be challenged in what's true, even if they don't necessarily agree with it when you first say it.
32:25
SPEAKER_03: By and by far, by far, if I said before I preach, I'll say, show me your Bible.
32:31
SPEAKER_03: And it's the vast majority are young people.
32:33
SPEAKER_03: It's the millennials and Gen X, like, ah, I just look at the screen, I'll have my phone.
32:37
SPEAKER_03: But young people have a Bible in their hands, on paper, leather.
32:42
SPEAKER_03: Let me see it.
32:42
SPEAKER_03: And it's highlighted, it's underlined, and they are digging into the word.
32:47
SPEAKER_03: And so I think they bring this hunger for if God said it, I want to just know.
32:50
SPEAKER_03: I may not agree with it yet, I may see it differently, but I want to know what's true.
32:54
SPEAKER_03: Remember that episode of Friends where Phoebe is just singing songs in the cafe and she's just singing songs that are true about how cows are slaughtered for hamburgers, and this kid runs in and he's like, he's like, Are you the lady that just that tells us the truth?
33:08
SPEAKER_03: And so I think there's a hunger for just tell me the truth.
33:11
SPEAKER_03: Even if I don't agree, just tell me the truth.
33:13
SPEAKER_03: And so I think there's that.
33:15
SPEAKER_03: There is a a level at which they are willing to look like fools during worship.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: Where the generation before them is so reserved in worship, and you know, grown men will say, Oh, I don't worship that way.
33:27
SPEAKER_03: It's like, I don't know, man.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: I saw you at the Broncos game.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: You you seem to you seem to worship that way.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: You just don't worship Jesus that way, just say what you mean.
33:34
SPEAKER_03: And so they're willing to, man, they're willing to worship in such an expressive way.
33:39
SPEAKER_03: And it's beautiful.
33:40
SPEAKER_03: I think they're more willing to actually open up their homes to people who don't look like them, vote like them, talk like them, act like them, and create a radical dynamic of hospitality that the generation before it was closed off to.
33:53
SPEAKER_03: I think, I mean, you look at those three things alone.
33:55
SPEAKER_03: And man, I will tell you the best people who serve in our church are young people by far.
34:01
SPEAKER_03: I say we have we have X number of things to do.
34:03
SPEAKER_03: I need young people, I need people to serve, and it's young people show up to come serve and give their lives to it.
34:08
SPEAKER_03: So they bring an incredible passion to the table.
34:11
SPEAKER_03: And and I would rather direct passion than have to try to like push somebody into kind of like, come on, man, come on, man, you can do this versus someone who's passionate.
34:22
SPEAKER_03: And like we can just help guide and direct that, is what they have.
34:25
SPEAKER_03: And it's incredibly inspiring.
34:27
SPEAKER_03: And I'll tell you, man, look, the talent of young people, the anointing of young people is incredible.
34:32
SPEAKER_03: I'm watching some of these young people who are like 14, 15, 16, 17, gifted, anointed.
34:39
SPEAKER_03: And the stress I have is how do I create an environment where they can really grow and thrive and be able to have access to opportunity that maybe we didn't get until we were in our late 20s or 30s.
34:51
SPEAKER_03: And how do we create that and help shape that for them?
34:53
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm trying to think, you know, ahead and figure out how do we create uh opportunities for them to grow in their craft, whether it's preaching, leading worship, writing, speaking, like whatever it might be, helping them through it.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
35:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, I but I think one of the things that that I admire about your church and I admire about you is you said it right up front.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: The eclectic nature of the entirety.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not when you say it's multi, you describe a lot of multis.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I'm saying?
35:26
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not just one multis, and I think there's something in that that um creates curiosity, right?
35:35
SPEAKER_02: It just does.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: Like when it's not monolithic, um, it creates a curiosity about someone else, what the Bible might say, how this whole thing would work.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: And it reminds me, and I think this kind of ties back, of course.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: I all I am is a cheap substitute for uh Dallas Willard's words.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, basically, I just repeat the things that man said.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: But I think this is why in his model, and Carter, you know this model better than I do, the vision piece of Vim, vision intention means is so important, right?
36:10
SPEAKER_02: Because that's the idea of how this whole thing should work.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: And if that idea is wrong, if that story is wrong, if that vision is misplaced, if it is distorted, you can draw a line and see how where it goes, right?
36:26
SPEAKER_02: You just go, and I think there's something beautiful about um, you know, you're describing a place where you're cultivating a vision for what life in the kingdom should look like, it should be multi, multi-all these things, and it opens up your mind to what hey, wait a minute.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: Maybe everything I've been told about the way life is supposed to work isn't at all the way it's supposed to work.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: And what I've found is, and I love the Jalen uh Brunson analogy, he wasn't practicing basketball because he just wanted to practice, he had a vision for something he wanted to accomplish, right?
37:09
SPEAKER_02: He had a story that he was trying to live out, and I just think, bro, that is so powerful.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: There's not even a question in it.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: It's just, I see what you're doing.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think as it relates back to suffering, really what you're doing and what's happening is you're laying down a vision for life in the kingdom that is bigger than really your own small kingdom, your own small suffering, your own small world.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: And that's powerful.
37:39
SPEAKER_03: And suffering feels incredibly unfair and incredibly pointless if you don't know the point of the suffering.
37:46
SPEAKER_03: So I get a couple weeks ago, I don't know why.
37:49
SPEAKER_03: I get invited to all these women conferences.
37:51
SPEAKER_03: I'm always speaking at a women's conference.
37:52
SPEAKER_03: I I finally got my first men's conference.
37:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, finally, finally, someone, some a place where I can go read my poetry to these men, you know?
38:01
SPEAKER_03: So doing this women's conference, and the breakout is on marriage, which is in the one hand really tough because I'm talking to a group of you know 1,200 women and I'm and I'm asking, well, where's your husbands?
38:11
SPEAKER_03: Because it's much easier if I get to talk to your husbands too.
38:13
SPEAKER_03: And so, and doing the QA, they're all bringing up different questions, and really they're suffering questions.
38:18
SPEAKER_03: And and I asked this whole room of 1200 women, I said, How many of you before you got married, either in your engagement process or once a year, you and your husband get away and you sit down, no kids, nothing, for three days, and you talk about what is God's vision for this marriage and for this family?
38:35
SPEAKER_03: And if a room of 1200, like two hands went up.
38:39
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm like, okay, then you're building your life just based on every possible opportunity that comes your way with no actual vision for where this is going.
38:48
SPEAKER_03: And so you look, a lot of the suffering we face.
38:51
SPEAKER_03: Let's just let's talk about millennials.
38:53
SPEAKER_03: A lot of the suffering we face is self-inflicted.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: We're we're choosing to live an hour and a half away from where we work.
39:01
SPEAKER_03: We're choosing the the lifestyle of our food, the to live in homes that we can't afford, to buy cars we shouldn't really need.
39:08
SPEAKER_03: Like we're choosing, we're choosing to put our kids in 19 different sports and then wondering why our family feels so disconnected.
39:15
SPEAKER_03: And I'm not saying any of those things are necessarily bad or wrong or evil if it fits into this is the vision that God has given us for our family.
39:23
SPEAKER_03: And so you're right, Jalen Brunson had a vision.
39:26
SPEAKER_03: This is where I want to go.
39:28
SPEAKER_03: And then his dad helps push him and coach him to that.
39:30
SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, my wife, again, my wife and are building a house.
39:33
SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you, as frustrating as building a house can be, it would be exponentially more frustrating if we just dug the ground and said, hey, let's just let's just take this as we go.
39:41
SPEAKER_03: Let's just build as we go.
39:42
SPEAKER_03: It's a lot easier to have a blueprint that's showing us what we're want to do.
39:47
SPEAKER_03: And then in real time, when you dig the ground and you're like, oh, okay, I didn't see that there was a giant septic tank.
39:53
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't in the original study.
39:55
SPEAKER_03: So now we work around it, but we still keep the plan.
39:58
SPEAKER_03: And we just we maybe make some variables and we turn and we change stuff, but the plan is still the same.
40:03
SPEAKER_03: And I think so many people suffer through life because there is no legitimate plan for where is God calling me?
40:10
SPEAKER_03: Where is God taking me?
40:11
SPEAKER_03: What is this family about?
40:12
SPEAKER_03: What does my life represent?
40:13
SPEAKER_03: Where am I moving forward to?
40:15
SPEAKER_03: And really understanding, I would say, how does my how does the plan for my life really, how is it folded into God's unfolding plan for the world?
40:23
SPEAKER_03: Is that so as I'm building my house, I talk to you guys about it.
40:26
SPEAKER_03: As I'm building my house, what keeps me going is that this will not only be a blessing to our family and our kids, but we're thinking about foster kids and adoption and the people who are going to be in this home.
40:36
SPEAKER_03: And so what keeps us going is this will be a blessing to others, not just ourselves.
40:40
SPEAKER_03: And I think if we can live that way, it moves us forward, it creates a new story other than the narrative that I'm telling myself all the time about why I'm suffering.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: One belief drives everything around here.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: If Jesus was right about God, life, and the soul, then it makes sense to rearrange our lives around what he said is true.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: Ready for the next step?
41:03
SPEAKER_02: Well, follow is a 30-day guided study.
41:06
SPEAKER_02: One reading a day, one practice a day, on your own or with other people.
41:11
SPEAKER_02: And by day 30, you'll not just be learning about Jesus, you'll be living differently, going deeper from there with 30-day guides on prayer and so much more to come.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: So if you're interested in taking a next step, visit follow theway.church and start your guide this week.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: So fascinating because you think about how we could spend so much time trying to think about hey, how do we help people prepare for for suffering or how to handle suffering?
41:44
SPEAKER_00: But nobody's ever teaching us to go, how do you have a more compelling vision?
41:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, and then you know, and so like both what Eric, you and I Rooper talking about is just like, gosh, if people actually had a sense of God's calling and God's vision for their life, well then they can start to rearrange and arrange their time, their talent, their treasure, uh, their testimony, all of this stuff to come under that vision.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: But it also gives them the theological framework, as you were talking about, Nairobi, when suffering does come to go, oh yeah, of course it's gonna be hard.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that just just because God gave me a vision doesn't mean it's gonna be easy.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Um Jesus got the cross.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Of course there's gonna be setbacks and hardships and unfair pieces.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious though, um, when you when you think about trying to teach people to have vision, and I, you know, I love I love listening to you preach.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: I feel like um, man, you can you can turn a text on a dime, you can challenge people, you can create moments for the spirit.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but like I've watched you just even take a word like hospitality.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: I've watched you almost be, in my opinion, like one of the the leaders in reclaiming hospitality in the local church and the importance of it.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: And Eric was talking about how, like, yeah, you don't like set up small groups for people, like you set up uh a theology of hospitality and cast a vision and invite people into that way of living.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Talk about that because I think that's something that you do so naturally, whether in your preaching or is that is that just like someone taught you that?
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Is that something like, man, um I'm never gonna drop down to a certain topic.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm always living in what's a biblical vision or a biblical call.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: Like there's just something you do uniquely.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that question even makes any sense.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: It makes sense to me, but like talk about that.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: I mean, part of it is because it so honors the family I grew up in.
43:55
SPEAKER_03: Are, you know, part of the benefit, part of the benefit of growing up in the east.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: Is you just grow up in a world where, you know, your life belongs to other people.
44:05
SPEAKER_03: You are part of a communal faith.
44:07
SPEAKER_03: And so when my when I first took my wife to India, and I'm like, oh, meet my cousin, my aunts, my uncles, in her Western mind, she's trying to figure out what's the blood relation here.
44:16
SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh no, no, we're not related by blood.
44:19
SPEAKER_03: We we all just grew up together.
44:20
SPEAKER_03: This, we, their parents raised us as much as our parents.
44:23
SPEAKER_03: It's just how we how we navigate life.
44:25
SPEAKER_03: It's how Asians talk about the world, aunts and uncles and cousins.
44:29
SPEAKER_03: And so I think part of it is just inherent in our culture that we are a people of hospitality, that our home is always open.
44:35
SPEAKER_03: And so that's, I think having that, I think as a new believer reading the Bible and seeing it through the lens of, man, from Genesis through Revelation, God is setting, you can tell the story through tables.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: You can tell the story through weddings.
44:48
SPEAKER_03: And so giving that theology of people of what we can do, helping people understand that I believe that hospitality is the only practice, the only Christian practice that accomplishes the Great Commission and the Great Commandment at the same time.
45:03
SPEAKER_03: That we're that we're given the space to love our neighbors.
45:07
SPEAKER_03: And we're also given the space to make disciples at this table.
45:11
SPEAKER_03: And so trying to give them that.
45:13
SPEAKER_03: But ultimately, in all of my preaching and all my storytelling, the only thing I'm trying to do is to awaken people's imagination for life with God.
45:20
SPEAKER_03: Like, what could your life look like if you would just say, God, would you open my imagination?
45:26
SPEAKER_03: And I and I think this is one of the reasons that Jesus says, have faith like a child.
45:31
SPEAKER_03: Because I've never, I've never had to help my four-year-old have an imagination.
45:37
SPEAKER_03: Whatever we do, he he turns Jenga into a battle between, you know, galactic forces.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: We go to the park and he's a pirate.
45:45
SPEAKER_03: And everything, and I and I, as we get older and older and older and older and older, I think our imagination diminishes.
45:51
SPEAKER_03: Instead of saying, God, what is even in suffering, God, this suffering is not mine.
45:56
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't belong to me.
45:57
SPEAKER_03: It belongs to you.
45:59
SPEAKER_03: Would you awaken my imagination for what you could do with this suffering?
46:03
SPEAKER_03: And so I think the way you tell that is through stories.
46:07
SPEAKER_03: And as part of just the culture I grew up in.
46:10
SPEAKER_03: Like one of my favorite, favorite moments in history of imagination, of what it looks like to have the power of imagination and hospitality, is Corey Tenboom and her sister Betsy.
46:20
SPEAKER_03: 1944, they're sentenced to Ravensbrook.
46:23
SPEAKER_03: They go to Barrack 28, the worst barrack in Ravensbrook.
46:27
SPEAKER_03: Literally hell on earth.
46:29
SPEAKER_03: It could sleep about a hundred women, over a thousand are pushed into this barrack.
46:32
SPEAKER_03: And to make matters worse, it's covered in fleas, head to toe, corner to corner, fleas everywhere.
46:39
SPEAKER_03: And Corey looks at her sister Betsy and she says, This is too much.
46:43
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's bad enough that God would allow us to come here, but this is too much.
46:47
SPEAKER_03: Like fleas in it.
46:48
SPEAKER_03: And Betsy goes, No, no, Corey, we need to rejoice in the Lord.
46:51
SPEAKER_03: We need to thank the Lord for the fleas.
46:53
SPEAKER_03: And Corey is saying, What are you talking about?
46:56
SPEAKER_03: Like, how can we possibly thank God for the fleas?
46:58
SPEAKER_03: And Betsy says, Well, don't you see that because there's fleas, the Nazi guards won't come in.
47:03
SPEAKER_03: In this barrack, we are free to pray, to practice the Sabbath, to anoint women with oil, to read the little Bible that they smuggled in to lead people to Christ, to set the table for hospitality.
47:14
SPEAKER_03: I mean, they created in barrack 28, hell on earth, they made it a table of sacred grace with God.
47:21
SPEAKER_03: And women, I mean, story after story after story of women who said, who the who are not Christians, said that they encountered Jesus in that barrack.
47:29
SPEAKER_03: It came to faith, and they were grateful.
47:31
SPEAKER_03: I mean, can you imagine saying this?
47:32
SPEAKER_03: I was grateful that God allowed me to be sentenced of all the camps to be sent to Ravensbrook to Barrack 28.
47:39
SPEAKER_03: That only happens, that only happens if you say, God, give me a greater imagination for what you could do in and through my life, even in the midst of hell on earth.
47:50
SPEAKER_03: What could you do in my life?
47:51
SPEAKER_03: And I just don't think that can happen if our minds are just constantly around what I deserve and what I'm entitled to instead of all my life is an altar, all of my life is a table.
48:01
SPEAKER_03: And how do I see my life through the lens of being a table?
48:04
SPEAKER_03: And so what I'm trying to cultivate in our church is that the most sacred room in your house is the table where people sit, where people dine.
48:12
SPEAKER_03: Because that's where it's where you realize that people are not problems to be solved, they're not volunteers to be mobilized, they're stories to be heralded and embodied and counted as sacred.
48:46
SPEAKER_03: What is happening in our church is unbelievable.
48:48
SPEAKER_03: We we in the city of Denver, I don't even know if you know this, Eric.
48:50
SPEAKER_03: We in the city of Denver, for I believe now it's two, two of the leading agencies for foster care.
48:56
SPEAKER_03: Our church takes in more foster kids than any other church in the city.
49:01
SPEAKER_03: And it's not, it's not a bunch of Gen Xers.
49:04
SPEAKER_03: It's millennials in Gen Z adopting and fostering kids.
49:07
SPEAKER_03: It's unbelievable.
49:08
SPEAKER_03: Of just seeing their home as this is not my house.
49:11
SPEAKER_03: This is not my room, it's not my car, it's not my table.
49:13
SPEAKER_03: All this belongs to God.
49:15
SPEAKER_03: And I have to give an account for this one day.
49:17
SPEAKER_03: And so I want to open up my home to the most vulnerable people and invite them in.
49:21
SPEAKER_03: It's it's crazy, like the number of stories that I meet now of families coming in with foster kids.
49:27
SPEAKER_03: And then the church should be, when those kids come in, the safest place in the world where they feel celebrated and honored and respected and invited into the story of what God's doing.
49:39
SPEAKER_03: So that to me, like, Steve, I could talk about hospitality all the live long day.
49:44
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have you back and we're gonna talk about hospitality because I'm sitting here going, dude, we need to have that conversation.
49:50
SPEAKER_03: I do think it's the key to discipleship in America is opening our homes for hospitality.
49:55
SPEAKER_03: And this is, I mean, we could talk about a lot.
49:57
SPEAKER_03: I mean, think about that.
49:58
SPEAKER_03: There was a time, there was a time in the 80s and the 60s and the 40s, you know, when the Asian immigration act happened, when there were Asian refugees from Vietnam and Malaysia all over the world.
50:07
SPEAKER_03: It was Christians, it was churches who were sponsoring immigrants to come.
50:12
SPEAKER_03: And these were not Christian immigrants.
50:13
SPEAKER_03: Uh there's a great book called Where the Wind Leads.
50:16
SPEAKER_03: Um, the youngest son of that family, Isaac Chung, goes to our church.
50:20
SPEAKER_03: And this is a Vietnamese, Chinese Vietnamese family in Vietnam who's in the middle of the stranded ocean and world vision picks them up in Operation Sea Sweep, a church in Arkansas sponsors them.
50:31
SPEAKER_03: They, this whole family comes to know Jesus.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: Generations are changed because of churches were sponsoring people and saying, no, no, no, like we want you here.
50:38
SPEAKER_03: Open up our homes.
50:39
SPEAKER_03: And now it's incredibly sad that, you know, according to according to World Relief, 80% of the immigrants facing deportation in America are Christians.
50:48
SPEAKER_03: Are Christians.
50:50
SPEAKER_03: It's almost like we've been praying for revival for years in this country.
50:54
SPEAKER_03: And now you have Orthodox believing Christians coming here.
50:56
SPEAKER_03: And we're like, no, no, no, get out.
50:58
SPEAKER_03: Get out, get out, get out, get out.
50:59
SPEAKER_03: Because what we really want is for University of Texas fans to all look like they're from Texas and we don't want any of you anymore.
51:05
SPEAKER_03: And man, the harvest is literally coming here, but we have no vision for what the kingdom looks like.
51:10
SPEAKER_03: And this, and the table, like followers of Jesus, we should say, the more that God blesses me, Psalm 67, the more that God opens up the earth and yields its fruit and allows prosperity in my life, the more I should see my life is not to build taller fences but longer tables.
51:27
SPEAKER_03: To invite people to come and sit at the table and experience the grace of Christ.
51:30
SPEAKER_03: And so that that would be like my other than other than just Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ has come again.
51:36
SPEAKER_03: My singular passion is to help people open up their homes and their tables so people experience the grace of Christ.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: But but the brilliance of this, Nairoop, is it's what we got back to.
51:47
SPEAKER_02: It is a bigger vision than any of these other smaller pieces.
51:50
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not trying to minimize someone's pain, I'm not trying to minimize their work ethic or whatever it is that you know comes before that.
52:00
SPEAKER_02: But what you are illustrating is what Dallas laid out.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: There is a vision at your church about what life in the kingdom looks like, and when you have that, everything else tends to make sense, right?
52:16
SPEAKER_02: You can make sense of it.
52:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think my greatest fear and my greatest encouragement is um my fear is that uh most Christians, the reason why we don't have much of a Jesus-centric vision for our lives is we don't know what Jesus said.
52:33
SPEAKER_02: We actually don't have any clue as to what he said.
52:37
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, that's why we consistently are like, hey, if Jesus is right about God, about life, about the soul, then it would make sense that we would rearrange our lives around the things he said, right?
52:50
SPEAKER_02: But you have to know what he said.
52:51
SPEAKER_02: And so what I'm encouraged about is when you talk about your church bringing their Bibles and putting their face into these words and wrestling through each of the things that Jesus said about life.
53:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this begins to establish a vision for life in the kingdom.
53:13
SPEAKER_02: And when we have that vision, it does tend to um, as I said, uh uh make all of these other things make sense within the context of that greater vision.
53:25
SPEAKER_02: So, dude, I just absolutely love it.
53:26
SPEAKER_02: And you can obviously tell, man, I'm like uh for our listeners, you um we'll drop it in the link, show link.
53:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, you gotta listen to this this guy preach.
53:36
SPEAKER_02: You can tell you you got it.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: But here's what I want to pivot to because we got just a few minutes.
53:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I know you have a book that um tell tell us about it because I want the I want the people that are listening to be able to get a hold of it, but tell us a little bit about the book, and uh, we'll drop that into the show notes as well, a link to the book.
53:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so the the book is called Defiant Lights.
53:57
SPEAKER_03: It's based on Matthew 5, 14 through 16, where Jesus says you were the light of the world.
54:01
SPEAKER_03: And I've always been fascinated with this idea that Jesus has seven I am statements about himself.
54:06
SPEAKER_03: I'm the bread of life, I'm the way, the truth, and the life, I'm the door, I am the light of the world, John 8.12.
54:11
SPEAKER_03: But then he transfers one of them to us.
54:12
SPEAKER_03: He says, Well, now you're the light of the world.
54:15
SPEAKER_03: And so basically the book is okay, if we're the light of the world, the implication is the world is dark.
54:19
SPEAKER_03: And so I propose seven ways in which the world is dark.
54:22
SPEAKER_03: It's deeply offended, it's greedy, it's a world of performance, a world of indifference, a world of discouragement, which is really the Bible's word for anxiety.
54:30
SPEAKER_03: And what should the posture of Christians look like?
54:32
SPEAKER_03: And here's why I believe in posture.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of great books on practices right now, and even theology, and I think that's great.
54:40
SPEAKER_03: But you could be a brilliant theologian, practice the Sabbath every week, and still be a prick.
54:45
SPEAKER_03: And so this book is about what is the posture.
54:47
SPEAKER_03: If you are a follower of Jesus, what is the difference?
54:50
SPEAKER_03: And so, how do we live as a people of joy, as a people of mercy, as a people of authority, uh, a people of fellowship in the kingdom and inviting others into it?
54:58
SPEAKER_03: So it's a book about Christian posture and what our reputations could look like if we take this light that Christ has given us into a world that is incredibly dark.
55:08
SPEAKER_03: And I love the words of Watchman Ni, 20th century Chinese church leader.
55:12
SPEAKER_03: He says, Light by nature just shines.
55:15
SPEAKER_03: It is the definition of what light does.
55:17
SPEAKER_03: And so Jesus is saying, I'm sending you out into a dark world.
55:20
SPEAKER_03: You don't need a podcast, you don't need to be an influencer, you don't need to be a pastor, you don't need to write books, you don't need to be famous.
55:26
SPEAKER_03: You just need to live as a faithful witness, heralding and stewarding a light that we live.
55:31
SPEAKER_03: And I love what Keller says, this light inside of us is borrowed.
55:34
SPEAKER_03: It's not even ours, it's borrowed light.
55:36
SPEAKER_03: And so we get to live the good works and the conduct of our life that others would then, in the mystery of the gospel, would see the good works in us and give glory to the Father in heaven.
55:45
SPEAKER_03: So I really believe in it.
55:47
SPEAKER_03: I really believe that God is going to do something with it.
55:49
SPEAKER_03: So I love what's the name of the book?
55:52
SPEAKER_03: Defiant lights.
55:52
SPEAKER_03: And it's real.
55:53
SPEAKER_03: So what I propose is a light is defiant.
55:55
SPEAKER_03: It's what it does.
55:56
SPEAKER_03: And so our way is a subversive, countercultural way to stand in defiance.
56:01
SPEAKER_03: And certainly I don't propose that we should stand up for Jesus.
56:05
SPEAKER_03: I think Jesus is perfectly capable of standing up for himself.
56:08
SPEAKER_03: But what does it mean to live in the assurance of grace and stand in Christ and have our full confidence anchored in him?
56:16
SPEAKER_00: And so beautiful because I love how your subtitle talks about how by living differently and following Jesus' calling, it remakes us and restores our world.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: And so just like love that the way that you take those seven ideas and how it literally remakes us and restores us as the that borrowed light shines through us.
56:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:40
SPEAKER_02: That's it.
56:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, bro, we love it.
56:43
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're we are massive fans.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: And I'll be excited to uh get some tea and crumpet with you.
56:56
SPEAKER_02: Tea and crumpets here in a few short days over on the other side of the pond.
57:00
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to check out the new house, bro.
57:04
SPEAKER_03: It's too big, man.
57:05
SPEAKER_03: It's too well.
57:06
SPEAKER_03: You dine it on paper and then you dig in the ground, you're like, this is too big.
57:09
SPEAKER_03: This is too big.
57:09
SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm telling Hannah, we should keep our current small house to invite people over there just so they're like, oh, the he has a really small house.
57:17
SPEAKER_03: But it's it's a it's gonna be a gift, and I think it's gonna be awesome.
57:20
SPEAKER_03: But man, Steve, me and me and Eric are in Colorado, so we got to send the follow podcast jet and just pick up Steve and in Chicago, just fly him out here.
57:29
SPEAKER_03: Let's do it live.
57:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, he used to do it live.
57:31
SPEAKER_02: He used to come down here, and um, and we you know, we just we we we haven't been able to get him back into Colorado.
57:40
SPEAKER_02: Although you're coming, you're coming.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: I won't be here, but you're coming, right?
57:44
SPEAKER_00: Marathon weekend, the 10th and 11th.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: I'll be there.
57:46
SPEAKER_02: Let's go, baby.
57:47
SPEAKER_02: Is it cold?
57:47
SPEAKER_00: You run it at Colfax?
57:49
SPEAKER_00: No, uh, it's uh Plum Creek.
57:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so he's coming and preaching, doing a little preaching.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I thought he said a marathon.
57:56
SPEAKER_00: No, it's marathon weekend, Chicago Marathon weekend October 10th.
57:59
SPEAKER_03: And then he said I was like, Plum Creek has a marathon?
58:02
SPEAKER_03: That's unbelievable.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, I I have the Chicago Marathon with me every single day because of my run four years ago.
58:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh, it is called a busted hip.
58:14
SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know.
58:16
SPEAKER_03: I considered running a marathon once, so I drove 26 miles and I was like, I don't think I can do this.
58:21
SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna do this more, man.
58:22
SPEAKER_03: But okay, I'll I'll I'll end with I'll end with this though, because I do use this illustration.
58:27
SPEAKER_03: I want to go into I want to go into heaven exhausted.
58:30
SPEAKER_03: I when I see people finish a marathon, which I've never run before, but I've seen people finish it.
58:36
SPEAKER_03: I have yet to find the person finish a full marathon and look like they just had a leisure weekend.
58:43
SPEAKER_03: They look exhausted.
58:45
SPEAKER_03: And yet, at the same time, there is this incredible joy that they are carrying at the same time.
58:50
SPEAKER_03: And I look at them and I think, man, like that's how I want to live my life.
58:52
SPEAKER_03: I want to live my life exhausted and go into heaven exhausted and at the same time experience such exhilaration of joy of knowing that I have finished the race well.
59:02
SPEAKER_03: And so I just I love Paul's analogy.
59:04
SPEAKER_03: Like, I love Paul's analogy of finish the race well.
59:07
SPEAKER_03: I've never seen someone finish a race strolling, they are crawling to the finish line, but man, the joy of heaven on them.
59:14
SPEAKER_03: And so that's all I want to live.
59:16
SPEAKER_03: That's all I want to ask the Lord, like, Lord, shine the light so brightly through me that I go out exhausted.
59:22
SPEAKER_03: So you guys inspire me.
59:23
SPEAKER_03: Um, Steve, I I think I recommend your books to once a week.
59:28
SPEAKER_03: Someone's going through something, and I'm always like, Man, that's a thing beneath the thing.
59:32
SPEAKER_03: I got a book for you.
59:33
SPEAKER_03: You need to read this book, you know.
59:35
SPEAKER_00: I love you, bro.
59:35
SPEAKER_03: Or your book on grief was beautiful.
59:37
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
59:39
SPEAKER_03: Eric, you're a legend.
59:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, guys, um, this was fun.
59:43
SPEAKER_02: I I was seriously, super, super fun.
59:45
SPEAKER_02: We'll have you back on the show soon, and um super grateful for you.
59:50
SPEAKER_02: Um if you're listening, check the show notes out.
59:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we have a we'll have a link to where you can find your book.
59:58
SPEAKER_02: And um, and uh we want to feature some of your preaching, man, because you bring it, you bring it, and uh we love it.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_02: So thanks for all you're doing, not only in Denver, Colorado, my home, but uh around the globe, bro.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you a ton.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_02: Love you guys, man.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you guys.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the time.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_02: All right, thanks, brother.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_02: So that's gonna do it for today.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_02: If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: Take it with you.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_02: Carry it into your week.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_02: Talk about it with someone, let it do something in you.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_02: And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_02: We'll be back soon with more.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_02: So until then, keep rearranging, keep following.