Latest / Becker’s Healthcare Podcast / The Growth of Outpatient Interventional Radiology with Dr. Osman Ahmed

Transcript

The Growth of Outpatient Interventional Radiology with Dr. Osman Ahmed · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

• 0:02
  - The strategic agenda facing hospital and health system
• 0:04
  - leaders right now is not a short list.
• 0:07
  - Growth in a consolidating market, sustainable margins in
• 0:09
  - a reimbursement environment that rarely moves in your
• 0:12
  - favor,
• 0:12
  - a tech investment cycle that demands both urgency
• 0:15
  - and discipline,
• 0:16
  - and a workforce story that is still being
• 0:19
  - written.
• 0:20
  - Eker's fourteenth annual CEO CFO roundtable brings together
• 0:23
  - more than 1,500 executive level attendees and nearly
• 0:27
  - 400 speakers across four days of sessions that
• 0:30
  - are designed to help c suite leaders benchmark,
• 0:32
  - pressure test, and sharpen their priorities.
• 0:35
  - Not in the abstract, but against the real
• 0:37
  - decisions they'll face heading into the next year.
• 0:39
  - It's the kind of event you leave with
• 0:41
  - a clear sense of where you stand and
• 0:42
  - what comes next.
• 0:44
  - So join us November second through the fifth
• 0:46
  - at the Hyatt Regency in Chicago,
• 0:48
  - and come ready to do the hard thinking.
• 0:50
  - Register on our events page at beckershospitalreview.com
• 0:54
  - by clicking on the events tab in the
• 0:56
  - upper right.
• 0:58
  - This is Scott Becker with the Beckers HealthCare
• 1:01
  - podcast.
• 1:02
  - Thrilled today to be joined by a brilliant
• 1:04
  - interventional
• 1:05
  - radiologist
• 1:06
  - who also has some great entrepreneurial instincts, just
• 1:09
  - a brilliant doctor, doctor Osman Ahmed.
• 1:12
  - Doctor Ahmed, can you take a moment and
• 1:14
  - introduce yourself and and tell us a little
• 1:16
  - bit about your background?
• 1:17
  - Thanks so much, Scott. I don't know if
• 1:19
  - I'm deserving of such a nice introduction, but,
• 1:22
  - my name is Osman. I go by Oz,
• 1:24
  - Ahmed. I'm an interventional radiologist,
• 1:26
  - as you mentioned.
• 1:27
  - Kind of a, Chicago kid. Did most of
• 1:30
  - my training here,
• 1:32
  - at the University of Chicago as well as
• 1:33
  - fellowship at Stanford. Practiced at University of Chicago
• 1:36
  - for about ten years, before leaving about a
• 1:39
  - year ago to start my own,
• 1:41
  - practice here, in Chicago.
• 1:44
  - And so I guess, doctor Ahmed, the big
• 1:46
  - question is, are people brighter at University of
• 1:48
  - Chicago or they're brighter at Stanford? What's the,
• 1:51
  - you know, what's the
• 1:52
  - the the answer on that? No. You don't
• 1:54
  - have to answer that. But tell us just
• 1:55
  - a little bit about those two two different
• 1:57
  - experiences being University of Chicago versus being at
• 1:59
  - Stanford.
• 2:00
  - For sure. I I did undergrad at Northwestern,
• 2:02
  - so I'm actually part... More partial to Northwestern
• 2:05
  - than than any of those institutions. But, I
• 2:07
  - love my time out West. I'm I'm actually,
• 2:10
  - I would have loved to, at some point,
• 2:11
  - you know, make my, sort of retire out
• 2:14
  - there or something. But very different institutions, but
• 2:16
  - at the end... Like you said, at the
• 2:17
  - end of the day, they're both,
• 2:19
  - you know, pretty,
• 2:20
  - awesome places to to learn and train at.
• 2:23
  - And,
• 2:24
  - you know, I think what's cool about interventional
• 2:25
  - radiology, just like most procedural specialties, is there's
• 2:28
  - a lot of variation how things are done.
• 2:30
  - And so it was good to go to
• 2:31
  - another institution,
• 2:33
  - like Stanford to kinda learn how they do
• 2:35
  - things.
• 2:37
  - Amazing. And
• 2:38
  - I... I'll come back to enrich the radiology
• 2:40
  - in one second. But Northwestern Football's moving, it
• 2:43
  - seems like, in the right direction again, at
• 2:44
  - least if not aggressively, at least moving in
• 2:46
  - the right direction. Is it a fair assessment?
• 2:49
  - Oh, I think it's more than fair. I
• 2:51
  - I just saw a tweet,
• 2:53
  - yesterday that,
• 2:55
  - apparently,
• 2:56
  - Ryan Stadium, which which opens up today, the
• 2:58
  - new stadium,
• 2:59
  - is the fifth scariest place to play this
• 3:01
  - weekend, apparently.
• 3:03
  - So I never thought in my life I'd
• 3:04
  - ever see that, statement be uttered.
• 3:07
  - That's incredible.
• 3:09
  - And I tell you, the new Ryan State...
• 3:10
  - Stadium is not very far from where I
• 3:12
  - grew up and very excited to see it,
• 3:13
  - quite frankly.
• 3:15
  - Talk to us
• 3:16
  - about the big trends that you're watching in
• 3:17
  - interventional radiology,
• 3:19
  - then we'll talk a bit about where you're
• 3:21
  - most focused in in what you're doing, which
• 3:22
  - itself is incredibly interesting. But but talk about
• 3:25
  - the big trends you're watching in interventional radiology.
• 3:28
  - For sure. I think, you know, interventional radiology
• 3:30
  - in general, minimally invasive procedures, image guided,
• 3:33
  - has always kind of been doing innovative stuff.
• 3:35
  - But where I think we've seen explosive growth
• 3:38
  - over the last five,
• 3:40
  - years or so is in, the outpatient space
• 3:43
  - and specifically
• 3:44
  - outpatient embolization, embolization being a fancy word for
• 3:47
  - blocking blood flow.
• 3:48
  - And where we're... Historically, we used to basically
• 3:51
  - only do embolization in the hospital for bleeding
• 3:53
  - or for tumors. But now we do it
• 3:55
  - for what I like to call benign conditions,
• 3:57
  - like enlarged prostate, hemorrhoids,
• 4:00
  - musculoskeletal
• 4:01
  - conditions, like arthritis. And so I think because
• 4:03
  - of that, we're seeing a huge growth of
• 4:05
  - IR, specifically in this outpatient embolization space.
• 4:09
  - And and talk about... You developed...
• 4:11
  - When you were in Chicago for more than
• 4:13
  - a decade, you've got this fantastic reputation as
• 4:15
  - an interventional radiologist.
• 4:17
  - Then you started off on a a bit
• 4:19
  - of a different entrepreneurial effort.
• 4:21
  - Can you talk about that a little bit?
• 4:23
  - Yeah. For sure. I would say that this
• 4:26
  - growth in outpatient embolization is really what sort
• 4:28
  - of changed my, career trajectory significantly. And about
• 4:32
  - five or six years ago, I was a
• 4:33
  - very, very early adopter of of what's called
• 4:36
  - musculoskeletal
• 4:37
  - embolization, so embolizing
• 4:38
  - or or blocking blood flow to joints for,
• 4:42
  - areas of inflammation that may be causing pain.
• 4:44
  - And, you know, in doing that, and sort
• 4:47
  - of, you know... So starting that program at
• 4:49
  - University of Chicago and kind of building up,
• 4:51
  - you know, my name, my,
• 4:53
  - that program,
• 4:54
  - I realized that actually the best place to
• 4:56
  - provide this care actually isn't in the hospital.
• 4:58
  - It's actually probably in more of an outpatient
• 5:00
  - setting where patients, just the way I think
• 5:02
  - in orthopedics, they do a lot of surgeries
• 5:04
  - now and surgery centers, kind of adopting that
• 5:06
  - same philosophy.
• 5:08
  - I realized that it's probably best to actually,
• 5:10
  - you know, do this in that sort of,
• 5:12
  - site of setting. And so for that reason,
• 5:13
  - I left the university and kinda started my
• 5:15
  - own practice. And as you mentioned, I kinda
• 5:17
  - have an
• 5:18
  - entrepreneurial background or sort of bug, and so
• 5:21
  - that kinda helped, obviously, spur me to do
• 5:23
  - this.
• 5:24
  - And talk a little bit about what was
• 5:26
  - it like starting your own practice and really
• 5:28
  - getting going
• 5:30
  - after all these years being at University of
• 5:32
  - Chicago.
• 5:33
  - Were you independent there or were you on
• 5:35
  - the faculty there in the in the... Oh,
• 5:38
  - yeah.... The public university?
• 5:40
  - Yeah. No. I was actually... Was main professor
• 5:42
  - at the age of 42, which was pretty
• 5:44
  - awesome.
• 5:45
  - And then I left pretty shortly after that,
• 5:48
  - about six months.
• 5:49
  - And I I would... To your point, I
• 5:50
  - would say, you know,
• 5:52
  - outpatient space or setting or starting your own
• 5:55
  - practice
• 5:55
  - could not be any different... Or could not
• 5:57
  - be any more different than working in a
• 5:59
  - university or in a hospital setting. You know,
• 6:02
  - all the things that I worried about at
• 6:04
  - the hospital were very different than what I
• 6:06
  - worry about in the outpatient or or my
• 6:08
  - own practice. In my own practice,
• 6:10
  - you know, my... My worry is how do
• 6:12
  - I get patients, how do I almost kind
• 6:14
  - of the minuscule things like, you know, who's
• 6:16
  - gonna take the trash out? Who's gonna, you
• 6:17
  - know, unlock the doors? Things like that. Whereas
• 6:19
  - in the hospital, obviously, you never worry about
• 6:21
  - things like that. You worry more about how
• 6:23
  - am I gonna fit my patient into a
• 6:25
  - schedule? Because there, there's unlimited amount of patients
• 6:27
  - and,
• 6:28
  - you know, and there's obviously bureaucracy and things
• 6:30
  - that kinda try to slow you down when
• 6:32
  - you're in the university. So,
• 6:34
  - very, very, very different kind of, practice styles.
• 6:38
  - No. I bet. Like, you worry about making
• 6:40
  - payroll when you're at your own practice, and
• 6:42
  - it's different when you're working for a system
• 6:45
  - and and both create different alternatives, but you
• 6:47
  - have so many other things you gotta worry
• 6:49
  - about. Talk about the trajectory of the private
• 6:51
  - practice. I know it's gone great. I know
• 6:53
  - you're doing really interesting stuff.
• 6:55
  - Give us a moment or two there. Yeah.
• 6:57
  - No. Thank you. Yeah. We're we're... I was
• 6:59
  - very, very pleasantly surprised,
• 7:02
  - with, you know, how things are going. We've,
• 7:04
  - you know, we we started in Libertyville,
• 7:07
  - which is our first office about,
• 7:10
  - a little over a year ago now. And
• 7:12
  - then we... Shortly after that, about six months
• 7:13
  - after, we opened up a site in Rockford,
• 7:16
  - Illinois. And then now,
• 7:18
  - our third site is actually opening next week
• 7:20
  - in Munster. So things are going well. I
• 7:21
  - think it speaks to the fact that there
• 7:24
  - is a demand for these procedures. I think
• 7:27
  - there's a big unmet need, in this musculoskeletal
• 7:30
  - space specifically for basically nonoperative patients or patients
• 7:33
  - who have failed medical therapies. And we're we're,
• 7:36
  - you know, obviously enjoying the benefits of that
• 7:37
  - and being able to treat a lot more
• 7:39
  - patients than I think I would have been
• 7:40
  - able to, you know, when I was at
• 7:42
  - the university.
• 7:43
  - Amazing. Now for people that are not from
• 7:45
  - here,
• 7:46
  - the the sort of back and forth from
• 7:48
  - Munster to Rockford, it feels like different parts
• 7:51
  - of the Chicago world.
• 7:53
  - How often are you going from place to
• 7:55
  - place? Or how do you guys allocate who
• 7:57
  - goes where and so forth? Because if I
• 7:59
  - had my choice of those three, I'm probably
• 8:00
  - spending the most time in Libertyville,
• 8:02
  - sometime in Munster, and less time in Rockford
• 8:04
  - even though a great, great community.
• 8:06
  - How do you guys separate that out? You
• 8:08
  - you don't... You... You're serving those three communities,
• 8:10
  - so you can't make that kind of judgment
• 8:12
  - I just made, and I apologize for it.
• 8:13
  - But tell us a little bit about, like,
• 8:15
  - going back and forth from Rockford to Munster
• 8:17
  - to to Libertyville and what that looks like.
• 8:19
  - I mean, Libertyville's got the best bar community,
• 8:22
  - but that's probably not very important for the
• 8:24
  - the intervention radiology practice. But tell us about
• 8:26
  - the three different communities and how you get
• 8:28
  - back and forth and what do you do?
• 8:29
  - How do you handle it? For sure. Great
• 8:31
  - great questions. So, you know, for people who
• 8:34
  - aren't from Illinois, you know, Rockford's about two
• 8:36
  - hours west from the city.
• 8:38
  - Libertyville is about, forty five minutes north. It's
• 8:41
  - in the in the northern suburbs where,
• 8:44
  - I live. I think, Scott, you live... You
• 8:46
  - may live out there as well. And then,
• 8:48
  - Munster, Indiana is about an hour south where,
• 8:50
  - potentially the future bears will be. So,
• 8:54
  - how we manage this, I do have a
• 8:55
  - partner, doctor Patel, who is actually from Rockford.
• 8:58
  - So I'm I'm grateful to have him as
• 9:00
  - part because he likes going out to Rockford.
• 9:02
  - His his family is there. So what we
• 9:03
  - typically do, what we find in our practice
• 9:05
  - is that,
• 9:07
  - each... You know, we do clinic one to
• 9:09
  - two days a week at each site and
• 9:11
  - then procedures
• 9:12
  - basically one to two days a week. So
• 9:14
  - we can split up each site.
• 9:16
  - I typically go to each one, you know,
• 9:18
  - one day a week.
• 9:20
  - And similar for him, he goes, to each
• 9:22
  - site one day a week. I tend to
• 9:24
  - go to Libertyville a little bit more as
• 9:25
  - you mentioned. That's... Because I... That's where I
• 9:27
  - live, and he tends to go to Rockford
• 9:28
  - a little bit more because that's where his
• 9:30
  - family is.
• 9:31
  - Oh, yo. That's fantastic. So when you talk
• 9:33
  - to doctor Patel about Rockford, you know, tell
• 9:35
  - him everything I said was confidential, and I
• 9:38
  - didn't mean it negatively about Rockford. But do
• 9:40
  - you really think the... No. I'm kidding. Do
• 9:42
  - you really think it is a great community?
• 9:44
  - Do you think the bears are really going
• 9:47
  - to Munster? Is that becoming... Or that area,
• 9:50
  - is that becoming a more and more real
• 9:52
  - possibility
• 9:53
  - as sort of politically, it becomes very hard
• 9:56
  - for the state to fund the bears as
• 9:58
  - the city of Chicago doesn't wanna fund them
• 10:00
  - unless they stay in the city Chicago,
• 10:02
  - and the real option is they wanna come
• 10:04
  - out to Arlington.
• 10:05
  - So is it is it becoming more and
• 10:07
  - more likely
• 10:08
  - that the beers and Caleb Williams and whoever
• 10:11
  - else end up in in Rockford? What's your...
• 10:13
  - I I mean, end up in Northwoods, Indiana.
• 10:16
  - Yeah. If they're in Rockford, that would be
• 10:18
  - wild. But,
• 10:19
  - you know, it's a great question. I would
• 10:21
  - say
• 10:22
  - I... I'm I'm falling for it. I think
• 10:24
  - I think it's a done deal the way
• 10:25
  - that they're talking about it and the deal
• 10:27
  - that Indiana's giving them with all this... The
• 10:30
  - the tax breaks and all that sort of
• 10:31
  - stuff. It seems like it's more likely than
• 10:34
  - not, and I would actually bet on it
• 10:36
  - if I was to bet on it that
• 10:37
  - it's gonna happen.
• 10:39
  - You know, I'm still... There's a 1% hope
• 10:41
  - in my mind that it stays at Soldier
• 10:43
  - Field. I think that's the only place the
• 10:45
  - Bears should play personally, but, you know, I'm
• 10:47
  - kind of an old soul. I love I
• 10:48
  - love that stadium. I love the environment. I
• 10:50
  - love everything about it.
• 10:53
  - Yeah. No. I I find it to be,
• 10:55
  - fine. It's... I've been there a million times.
• 10:58
  - I... Last time I was there, it was
• 10:59
  - way, way up top. Those were not great
• 11:01
  - seats, and it was, and and it's hard
• 11:03
  - to get in and out of. It's really
• 11:05
  - challenging getting in and out of, but,
• 11:07
  - oh, it's a fascinating fight between the city,
• 11:09
  - the state.
• 11:10
  - They can't get together on this. And then
• 11:12
  - between the city, state, and Indiana, which can
• 11:14
  - get together on this, it is just... It
• 11:16
  - it... It's actually great fun and fascinating to
• 11:18
  - watch,
• 11:19
  - but, presumably, they'll say the Chicago Bears won't
• 11:22
  - become the, Hammond Bears, and it'll be what
• 11:24
  - it'll be.
• 11:25
  - I I agree. I think, actually, what kills
• 11:27
  - me the most really is that they're... That...
• 11:30
  - It sounds like it's a foregone conclusion. It's
• 11:32
  - gonna be a dome too, which that to
• 11:33
  - me just doesn't seem right. You know? But
• 11:35
  - I understand, you know, you wanna get the
• 11:37
  - Super Bowl and, you know, NCAA stuff, but
• 11:39
  - just seeing the Bears in December in a
• 11:41
  - dome just doesn't feel right.
• 11:44
  - No. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Yeah. I
• 11:46
  - couldn't agree with you more, and it is
• 11:48
  - what it is. And and, again, both of
• 11:50
  - us live within thirty minutes of the Arlington
• 11:53
  - site, which for years, we were hopeful that
• 11:55
  - that was gonna be it because Yep. At
• 11:56
  - least I was because that would have made
• 11:58
  - it easy to periodically go. The next question
• 12:00
  - I have for you is you've had this
• 12:02
  - fantastic both educational career and professional career. I
• 12:06
  - mean, professor at University of Chicago at 40
• 12:08
  - is unheard of. That's really amazing.
• 12:11
  - Obviously,
• 12:12
  - crazily bright.
• 12:14
  - Stanford, Northwestern, University of Chicago, you know, it...
• 12:17
  - It's,
• 12:18
  - just fantastic.
• 12:19
  - I'm gonna ask you one question before I
• 12:21
  - get to the serious question is, you know,
• 12:23
  - you're in Chicago had the reputation, and you
• 12:25
  - went there for medical school, not for not
• 12:27
  - for undergraduate.
• 12:28
  - It's a brilliant place where fun went to
• 12:30
  - die used to be the reputation, or they
• 12:31
  - used to say it about WashU as well.
• 12:33
  - Any comment on that? Was you in Chicago
• 12:35
  - Chicago actually... You probably had a great experience
• 12:36
  - in med school with great friends, great colleagues,
• 12:39
  - but that that... The concept of this is
• 12:41
  - where fun goes to die,
• 12:43
  - because, you know, it was a very academic
• 12:45
  - place.
• 12:46
  - Truths, not truth. Any comments?
• 12:48
  - Scott, well, you're asking the wrong person because
• 12:50
  - I told you I went to undergrad at
• 12:51
  - Northwestern. So I'm I'm,
• 12:53
  - I buy into that,
• 12:55
  - that philosophy or stereotype. I do think that
• 12:58
  - is... Hyde Park is where fun goes to
• 13:00
  - die, but, again, I'm I'm a little bit
• 13:01
  - biased as a wildcat underneath.
• 13:04
  - No. Fair enough. Not a maroon. More of
• 13:06
  - a wildcat. It is what it is. And
• 13:08
  - and at least the maroons and cardinals, you
• 13:10
  - at least got the color combinations the same
• 13:12
  - or close enough. So the so the next
• 13:13
  - question I got... Or the cardinal, I should
• 13:15
  - say. Excuse me. The next question I have
• 13:17
  - for you, doctor Metis,
• 13:18
  - you've had this great career. Unbelievable.
• 13:21
  - What advice do you give to emerging leaders?
• 13:23
  - What do you tell people trying to make
• 13:24
  - the most of their medical career? You're you're
• 13:26
  - in the spot where it takes too long
• 13:28
  - to get through medical school, residency, fellowships.
• 13:30
  - You get more and more people sort of,
• 13:32
  - you know, burnt out, upset, not loving the
• 13:35
  - reimbursement,
• 13:36
  - and just such a long track to get
• 13:38
  - there professionally when friends are going into finance,
• 13:40
  - other things.
• 13:41
  - What what do you tell somebody trying to
• 13:42
  - have a great career in medicine?
• 13:44
  - You know, is there still great hope? Can
• 13:46
  - it be fantastic? I mean, you seem to
• 13:47
  - be loving what you do, which is so
• 13:49
  - inspiring.
• 13:50
  - What advice do you give to emerging physicians,
• 13:51
  - emerging leaders?
• 13:53
  - No. Thank you.
• 13:54
  - It... It's a it's a very, very important
• 13:56
  - question because as you alluded to, there's a
• 13:58
  - lot of change in health care, and I
• 14:00
  - think there's a lot of disenchantment
• 14:02
  - and, you know, as you mentioned, burnout. And
• 14:04
  - I think health care systems, including universities, are
• 14:07
  - really
• 14:08
  - emphasizing the bottom line or the dollar. And
• 14:10
  - and, you know, that... That's coming at the
• 14:12
  - expense of some... What we like to consider
• 14:14
  - more the academic or extracurricular stuff like research,
• 14:18
  - like teaching, education, all that sort of stuff.
• 14:21
  - And so, you know, I I I do
• 14:22
  - still think there's hope in health care. I
• 14:24
  - do like, one of the... That is one
• 14:26
  - of the reasons why I've kind of,
• 14:28
  - went this, you know, outpatient way was to
• 14:30
  - kinda have a little bit more autonomy, a
• 14:32
  - little bit more say in how I run
• 14:33
  - my practice. And I think, you know, being
• 14:36
  - in academia for as long as I was
• 14:38
  - and kind of, you know, making a name
• 14:40
  - for myself and, you know, having a lot
• 14:41
  - of trainees and and fellows and things like
• 14:43
  - that,
• 14:44
  - I had a lot of... You know,
• 14:46
  - fortunately, again, I'm I'm trying to say this
• 14:48
  - humbly, like, that I had a lot of,
• 14:49
  - you know, people who looked up to me
• 14:51
  - that were students. And so I think... And
• 14:53
  - and part of me leaving, you know, a
• 14:56
  - a lot... I would get a lot of
• 14:57
  - questions saying, well, is it because academia is
• 15:00
  - broken or, you know, you're not happy? And
• 15:01
  - the reality is it's actually quite the opposite.
• 15:03
  - I think,
• 15:04
  - I really love what I do, and I
• 15:05
  - think what I... That pivot that I made
• 15:08
  - actually allowed me to continue loving what I'm
• 15:11
  - doing and sort of, you know, build my
• 15:12
  - practice the way that I wanted it to
• 15:14
  - to be. And I think there's also economic
• 15:17
  - advantages to this. And so,
• 15:19
  - what I would tell people is just generically,
• 15:21
  - like, the cliche is true. You really have
• 15:23
  - to do love medicine. If you do it
• 15:25
  - for the money, you do it for the
• 15:26
  - other reasons, you are gonna be disappointed because,
• 15:29
  - for the reasons that you just mentioned, it's...
• 15:30
  - It it is sort of things are going
• 15:32
  - negatively there. But if you truly do love
• 15:35
  - what you do, you know, it's a very
• 15:37
  - rewarding specialty, and then there are avenues to
• 15:39
  - be successful and to make money and to
• 15:42
  - be happy and all that sort of
• 15:44
  - stuff. Thank you so much. Doctor Ahmed, what
• 15:47
  - a pleasure to visit with you. Congratulations on
• 15:49
  - what you're doing. I I love what you're
• 15:50
  - doing. Thank you so much for joining us.
• 15:52
  - And and I'll I'll give you for sure
• 15:54
  - a go wild cats this weekend. I sure
• 15:56
  - hope they will. So thank you so much.
• 15:58
  - Awesome. Thank you, Scott. I really appreciate you
• 16:00
  - having me on.