Latest / NDV Podcast: Neurodiverse Voices Connect / Finding the Words with Harriet: The Power of Diagnosis in Self-Discovery

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Finding the Words with Harriet: The Power of Diagnosis in Self-Discovery · NDV Podcast: Neurodiverse Voices Connect

0:17
Welcome to season 5 of the Neuro Diverse Voices Podcast, the
0:22
podcast that gives a voice to the neuro divergent community.
0:27
My name is Andrea Costa and I am your host.
0:32
I am also the mom to a beautiful 9 year old autistic daughter and
0:36
she is my world. At the age of 42, I was recently
0:41
diagnosed with ADHD and through my lived experience I've
0:45
developed a deep passion for all things neuro diversity.
0:51
My daughter gave me purpose. My neurodivergence keeps the
0:55
passion alive. By sharing my journey, I hope to
0:59
help others feeling seen, understood, and less alone.
1:04
Through conversations with guests from a wide range of
1:08
backgrounds and perspectives, my aim is to challenge assumptions,
1:12
spark curiosity and enlighten all kinds of minds.
1:17
This is and brings another incredible line up of guests.
1:21
From comedians and writers to alternative provision leads,
1:25
therapists, parent advocates and researchers from the University
1:29
of Oxford, every guest has an inspiring journey and a powerful
1:33
story to share. This is a space for honesty,
1:36
connection and celebration where difference is not just accepted
1:41
but valued. Hi everyone, welcome to another
2:03
episode of Season 5 of the Neuro Diverse Voices podcast.
2:09
Today I have another special guest because all my guests are
2:12
very special and I'm very excited to learn about her
2:16
journey so far. So she's a novelist, she's a
2:20
Blogger and has lived experience of autism.
2:24
Her blog is Life with a label, The Diary of an Autistic Girl,
2:29
and she's the author of The Magical Summer.
2:37
Yeah, I, I'm sorry. I need to say this again,
2:39
because I, I, I, yeah. I didn't say the, the full
2:41
title. I knew this was going to happen.
2:43
The Magical Summer of Evie Adelman.
2:48
Welcome, Harriet the Mosquita. Thank you very much.
2:52
Thank you for having me and thank you for pronouncing my
2:54
name correctly because so many people don't do the the
2:58
mesquita, they do the Mesquita. So thank you.
3:02
You're very welcome. We also just realized before we
3:05
started recording that we have Portuguese blood, so we have
3:09
that in common. That's why I can pronounce your
3:11
name properly and I'm glad to do that because it's always the
3:14
same with me. Some people call me Andrea or
3:17
Andrea, but it's actually Andrea, although it's difficult
3:21
to to say, so it's understandable.
3:25
OK Harriet, so why don't we start with you telling us a
3:29
little a little bit more about yourself and where your love of
3:33
writing started? Of course, so, so as, as you've
3:38
just said, I, I'm a writer, but I, I actually came quite late to
3:43
writing. So I, I wanted to be a ballet
3:48
dancer when I was younger and did a lot of classical dance
3:50
training, but, but started getting a little bit injured by
3:54
that. So I then studied psychology at
3:57
university, went into working at in mental health that then kind
4:02
of went into physical health. I then retrained as a Pilates
4:05
teacher and I actually still teach Pilates today as well as
4:08
write. But my my novel was published
4:13
this year in June and I am also a bit of a late Comer to my own
4:19
autism. So I was diagnosed autistic at
4:22
36, so obviously always been autistic but was was undiagnosed
4:27
for for most of my life. And that was when I started
4:33
blogging post diagnosis. And I think for me writing has
4:38
always been well, I think it started with reading a love of
4:43
books really. And I think a lot of writers
4:45
start that way, they start as really avid voracious readers.
4:48
And that was definitely me. And I think for me books served
4:53
2 purposes really. I think firstly they were
4:56
escapism, which I think they are for a lot of people.
4:58
But I think as an autistic child growing up, you know, you need
5:03
that escapism. Sometimes you need to just be
5:06
able to leave the world behind and go into another world a
5:10
little bit. And they were also really
5:14
helpful books from a practical point of view, because I often
5:18
didn't really understand how other people worked or how they
5:21
ticked or how or why they reacted the way they did.
5:24
And actually books, especially fiction, you know, I actually
5:27
sort of learnt quite a lot about other people from, from reading
5:32
and then I started writing, as I said, quite late.
5:36
But I, I think also for me as an autistic person, I, I know that
5:41
a lot of autistic people are completely non verbal.
5:46
So I think it's about 25% of autistic people for me, I have
5:51
selective mutism. So I lose the power of speech
5:56
from time to time, especially when I'm really stressed.
6:00
And I think for me, writing is a really wonderful way of
6:04
communicating that isn't dependent on your voice.
6:08
And I think that was why dancing and ballet appealed to me so
6:12
much too, because it's just a way of expressing yourself that
6:18
that is, but not dependent on your voice.
6:21
So you don't have that worry about your voice kind of giving
6:24
out. So, so writing is is a kind of
6:27
extension of that and, and just finding a way to express myself
6:31
that feels really safe and that makes me really happy.
6:35
Yeah, absolutely. It's just the proof that, you
6:39
know, speech is not the only form of communication and you
6:42
can definitely express yourself in a wide variety of, of, of
6:48
other forms. So that's a very, very
6:50
interesting story. And in terms of the diagnosis,
6:56
because it's been late, how do you feel that it changed the way
7:00
you see yourself and your your past experiences?
7:04
I, I mean, it was, it was a massive change and, and a huge
7:08
sort of turning point in my life and a really positive change.
7:12
But I, I think having grown up undiagnosed, I don't know if
7:17
this is just me, but I very much veered between thinking, well,
7:21
everyone must be like me. I can't be that different to
7:24
other people, but everyone must just be coping with life a lot
7:28
better than me. So I sort of veered between
7:31
thinking that and and then thinking, no, actually I am for
7:35
some reason, whatever reason, I am kind of really different to
7:39
other people. And that's really, really
7:41
strange and really weird. And so sort of swinging between
7:45
those two extremes, neither of which were particularly healthy.
7:48
I think I, I found the world a very confusing place when I was
7:54
growing up. And I think getting a diagnosis,
7:58
it's, it gave me a reason as to why I am the way I am.
8:02
And I think it gave me more of a permission to be myself as well.
8:10
And I think again, I perhaps this is just me, but I think a
8:15
lot of late diagnosed autistic people will say that even though
8:21
you don't have a diagnosis, and I know sort of an autism
8:25
diagnosis is sort of often quite a stigmatized thing, you kind
8:30
of. Collect negative adjectives that
8:33
have been used to describe you over the years.
8:35
You know, people will describe you as kind of maybe at.
8:38
Best sort of quirky. Or a bit weird?
8:43
But the adjectives can certainly get a lot worse than that.
8:47
And you can be described as sort of arrogant perhaps, or cold or
8:50
unfeeling or, you know, and, and I think those adjectives stay
8:55
with us. And I think it's quite hard for
8:56
us not to internalise those adjectives and just feel that
9:00
we're always doing everything wrong.
9:03
And I think a diagnosis really helped me realise that, yes, I
9:09
was different, but it gave me a framework in which to understand
9:13
that and a vocabulary in which to express it.
9:16
So that was really important. And I think, you know, there,
9:20
there's, there's being autistic, there's, there's the core of who
9:23
we are as autistic people, but there's also that level of
9:28
awareness we have of, of how we are compared to other people and
9:32
compared to the outside world. And, and that, that level of
9:36
awareness I think is different for, for each autistic person.
9:40
But for me that, that, that feeling of difference was very
9:44
strong. And that was kind of another
9:47
layer. Of of a struggle really on on
9:49
top of. Just being autistic and coping
9:52
with my autistic traits and just getting getting through the day
9:56
kind of thing. So, so I think diagnosis removed
10:00
that layer of worry of thinking, well, why, why is that
10:04
happening? Why has that been lost in
10:05
translation? Why do I not understand what's
10:07
going on? And I think that just frees up
10:10
more mental space for us, you know, for us to be ourselves and
10:14
for us to just, you know, relax and be happy within who we are.
10:18
So, so it was, it was a huge turning point for me.
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And I think there is that level of grief.
10:25
Looking back, I think that there's a lot to come to terms
10:30
with post diagnosis. And I think I was slightly,
10:33
slightly naive when I was first diagnosed thinking, well, I know
10:37
that I'm autistic now And, and that's great, you know,
10:39
everything will be great. But I think you do do a lot of
10:43
looking back, like you were saying about your past
10:44
experiences and you, you wonder whether things could have been
10:51
different and could have been better if if you'd had a
10:53
diagnosis and known when you were younger.
10:56
I, I think this is a very personal thing and I think a lot
11:00
of early diagnosed people would probably say no, you know,
11:04
things aren't necessarily better, but I think for me, I
11:08
would have liked to have known so, so just getting a diagnosis,
11:12
even at 36 was, was really important for me.
11:18
Definitely because if you, if you are younger, when you get to
11:23
know, it might be challenging, but at least there will be
11:27
support that can be put in place and you don't grow up.
11:31
And, and also if we think about at least the teenage, the
11:36
teenager years right where when we are trying to figure out who
11:40
we are, it's a very confusing period.
11:43
So if you had known back then, it would have shaped you.
11:49
Exactly it would have. Shaped your future.
11:52
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the nice thing
11:54
about an adult diagnosis for me was that I pursued it and, you
11:59
know, I felt in control of it, I suppose.
12:01
I think sometimes for people who've had diagnosis as as
12:05
children, they feel out of control and they feel that it's
12:08
been sort of pushed on them and perhaps they don't necessarily
12:11
understand it. So, but, but I think, yeah, I
12:15
think just for me, being able to understand how I worked would
12:18
have been huge and and made a big difference when I was
12:22
growing up and like you said, when I was a teenager.
12:27
Yeah, definitely understandable. So I'm, I'm guessing that this
12:31
has been what inspired you to, to start your blog life with the
12:36
label. But it was what was the moment
12:39
when you said, OK, I've got a diagnosis now I kind of know who
12:43
I am, even though I'm still discovering myself.
12:47
What? What was that moment?
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Can you share it with us? I'm I'm not sure there was a
12:53
specific moment necessarily, but I I think and and again this.
12:58
Is probably a very autistic thing, but I I really started
13:01
doing my research and got very, very focused on all things
13:05
autistic in leading up to my diagnosis and afterwards.
13:08
So I was kind of looking at everything I possibly could to
13:11
do with autism. And it's strange because you,
13:16
you know, if you're late diagnosed, you do grow up and
13:19
autism is something other. And then suddenly this thing
13:22
becomes you. And, and I also remember at the
13:25
time of my diagnosis, the film music had come out by Sia that
13:30
had an autistic main character. And it was very controversial.
13:33
And I, I've personally found it a bit of a difficult watch, but,
13:36
but anyway, and, and I sort of realised that there were a lot
13:40
of things to be said about autism and that I kind of wanted
13:44
to say them. And I think I'm not alone in
13:46
that the sense that when you're diagnosed as an adult, actually,
13:49
you have opinions about this, you know, and you, you want to
13:53
express how you feel about it and you want to share your
13:56
journey with other people. And I think for me, completely
14:01
by accident, but my light bulb moment came about my autism
14:05
actually, because I'd started watching YouTube videos of
14:08
autistic women talking very articulately, very sort of level
14:14
headedly about their experience as autistic people.
14:18
And that was how I realised I was autistic.
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So it was pretty soon post diagnosis that I wanted to to
14:26
start a blog just to to to get some things off my chest, but
14:31
also hopefully to to share my experiences in a way that might
14:36
be helpful as well. Yeah, that, that makes
14:40
absolutely sense. It's quite interesting that you
14:43
mentioned CS movie music because I've only watched it recently
14:48
following another interview. One of my guests mentioned it to
14:51
me and I'm a massive CEO fan, but I had never heard about the
14:54
movie. I was like, how is this
14:56
possible? And I, I did, it's quite, it's
14:59
quite strong, but I did love it because there's so much on music
15:03
that I, that I see my daughter as well.
15:06
You know. The constant steaming and and I
15:09
was really happy to see that in in in media represent
15:15
representation because most of the times you have you do have
15:21
representation, but it doesn't have like a full packet, doesn't
15:26
focus much on the learning disability side of.
15:29
It. Yeah.
15:30
No, you're right. Yeah.
15:31
Yeah. No, you are right.
15:34
Yeah, I really enjoyed the movie and yeah, and I love the
15:39
accented 3. Or you know how extravagance he
15:43
always is so. I love it.
15:45
Well, she has been diagnosed autistic, hasn't she?
15:48
Since Sia so. Yes.
15:51
So that's, that's kind of interesting.
15:53
I, I personally found the movie, I found it quite a hard watch
15:57
physically because of the, you know, the sort of bright colours
15:59
when they go into her mind and I think.
16:02
She was trying to portray that very vivid inner world, but as
16:05
an autistic person, I found it quite hard to watch.
16:08
So it was, it was an interesting thing, but yeah, yeah.
16:11
Yeah, yeah, that's understandable.
16:14
OK, so now moving on. Well, we talked about your
16:17
writing and and creative process.
16:19
So you write about neurodivergent women in your
16:23
books. Can you tell us why that's
16:26
important to you? Well, I, I think, I think partly
16:32
it is just writing what you know, So I think before I was
16:37
diagnosed, so I, I started writing in my early to mid 30s.
16:42
And so sort of just a little bit before I was diagnosed.
16:45
And for me, you know, even before I was diagnosed, I was
16:50
writing these female characters that were kind of loners and
16:56
very much observers rather than doers.
16:58
You know, they they watched people very carefully.
17:03
And these characters had a very vivid internal life and but
17:06
maybe struggled a little bit in the outside world and of course,
17:10
looking back. Those characters were autistic.
17:12
And I think said a lot about me and about how my mind worked.
17:18
But I, I think post diagnosis, I actually set aside a manuscript
17:22
I was working on and immediately began writing Evie the, the
17:26
novel that was published this year.
17:28
And so it was, it was partly about, about writing about what
17:33
you know, But I think my diagnosis gave me a little bit
17:37
of impetus and motivation in the sense that I, I feel my, my
17:43
autism was missed when I was younger because I was a girl.
17:49
I, I'm, I did mask my autism again, a lot of girls do, but I,
17:54
I kind of feel that a lot of people didn't really want to see
17:59
my autism because it just wasn't seen as something that happened
18:02
in, in women and girls. And even at university as a
18:07
psychology student, we studied the extreme masculinity theory
18:10
of autism. So the idea that, that autism is
18:13
just kind of masculinity on steroids.
18:16
And it was a largely discredited theory by then, but not, not
18:19
completely. So I wanted to represent women
18:24
and girls like me. I think it's so important to
18:26
grow up and be able to see yourself in books or, you know,
18:31
on TV or whatever, whatever sort of creative outlets we have.
18:36
So that was really important to me.
18:38
And I also think, you know, as autistic people, we're often
18:43
judged so harshly. I think so much of our
18:46
experience is internal and it's about how our brains are wired.
18:51
And a lot of that gets lost in translation.
18:53
People just see our behaviour and they interpret our behaviour
19:00
in in their way in, in a sort of neurotypical way.
19:03
And then we're often found wanting or told that we're doing
19:06
things wrong or told that we're weird, you know, and I think
19:10
actually literature is a great way of kind of bridging that
19:14
kind of translation gap. I think, you know, there's,
19:18
there's a lot of really great autistic memoirs out, you know,
19:25
people sharing their experiences.
19:26
And I certainly read quite a few after I was diagnosed.
19:29
But I think actually in terms of fiction, it can be a really
19:32
great tool. You know, I think people read
19:35
books for a different perspective, to walk a mile in
19:38
in in somebody different shoes. So I think actually writing
19:43
autistic protagonists and then forcing people to step inside
19:46
their mind a little bit, I think that can be really helpful.
19:50
So that's kind of what motivates me to to create autistic
19:55
characters and especially female autistic characters.
19:59
Yeah, yeah. And that makes total sense.
20:02
So your book was launched in June.
20:06
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
20:08
Yeah, it's. The magical summer of Evie
20:10
Edelman. I got it right now.
20:12
You did. Can you tell us a bit, give us a
20:16
summary of of the story and we understand that Evie is autistic
20:23
or she will have. So can you just, yeah, just tell
20:28
us a little bit more about the book?
20:30
Of course. So, so the the novel is about
20:33
one girl's journey. It's about Evie.
20:36
She's 21, she's Jewish, and at the start of the novel she's
20:41
living quite a frustrating, kind of very conventional existence
20:46
in her parents house in an affluent suburb of Leeds.
20:50
She's part of the Jewish community there, but she's also
20:53
really quite an outsider. And the one person Evie is
20:57
really close to is her Aunt Mim, who's a very strong minded and
21:01
rather eccentric character herself.
21:05
But other than that, she doesn't really feel that she connects
21:08
with many people, and Evie is convinced that this is because
21:11
she's a witch. Her parents are unconvinced by
21:15
this, and Evie's been assessed and given a diagnosis of
21:19
Asperger's because the the novel is set in 1982.
21:22
So it it was Asperger's then it would be autism today.
21:27
And Aunt Min dies suddenly and she leaves all her fortune to
21:31
Evie. And Evie decides to make a break
21:34
for freedom and she moves out of the family home.
21:38
She goes down to a little village in rural West Yorkshire
21:41
and she tries to be the sort of friendly white.
21:42
Witch of the Village. And tries to discover really who
21:45
she is. So she thinks she's exploring
21:48
herself through witchcraft. I I would also say she's
21:52
learning a lot about her own mind and her neurodivergence.
21:56
And she has quite a lot of obstacles to overcome.
21:58
She finds herself in a kind of love triangle between her first
22:02
love, Alex, who moves into the village with his new wife, and
22:05
this tall, sort of dark, handsome stranger that she meets
22:09
who's who's a little bit of an unknowable quantity.
22:12
And the ghost of Aunt Mim has taken to reappearing at odd
22:16
moments to offer Evie words of wisdom and encouragement.
22:21
But it's it's it's about how we we go about finding our place in
22:27
the world. And especially I think if you
22:29
are a woman, and especially if you're a woman on your own and
22:32
you're quite an unconventional person for whatever reason, it's
22:35
about how do we find a life that best?
22:38
Suits us. Sounds very interesting, I
22:42
definitely need to read it and again, I'm sorry that I didn't
22:46
read it. No, no, that's fine.
22:48
Don't worry. Don't worry.
22:52
And how much do you see yourself in EV?
22:58
It's definitely a little bit autobiographical.
23:01
I mean, I'm, I'm a Londoner, but a few years ago I moved out of
23:07
London and I set myself up in a very rural part of NE Suffolk.
23:14
So I have that kind of journey from city girl to country girl
23:17
and, and you know, it has definitely had an effect on, on
23:22
my neurodivergence. But, but I think I, I think the
23:26
biggest similarity between me and Evie is, is the way in which
23:31
we express our autism. So obviously, you know, autism
23:33
is a really broad spectrum and, and everybody's very different.
23:38
Evie was the first kind of openly autistic character that I
23:43
wrote, and she was the 1st. Autistic character that I wrote
23:48
knowing that I was autistic as well.
23:51
So I kept our autism sort of fairly similar.
23:54
You know, we're both sort of very hypersensitive.
23:56
We both have synesthesia. We both have Echo Lily.
23:59
You know, there's, there's just a lot of similarities that way.
24:04
But we're definitely not the same people.
24:06
You know, I think, I mean, for a start, I'm, I was 15 years older
24:09
than Evie when, when I was writing that novel.
24:12
And, you know, Evie's a lot more impulsive, I think, compared to
24:18
me. And she makes decisions that I,
24:19
I would not have made, you know, for better or worse.
24:23
So we're definitely not the same people, but.
24:27
She was a great avatar, sort of to explore things, to explore
24:32
things sort of through in the novel.
24:36
Yeah, yeah. And what was the most enjoyable
24:39
part of writing the novel? For me, I, I, I'm, I'm a planner
24:46
and an organiser, which I mean, I'm autistic, so go figure.
24:50
But for, for me, I think I love that stage of building up to
24:55
starting writing. So I love, you know, getting my
24:58
notebooks and, and making all my notes and getting organised.
25:02
And this novel did require quite a lot of research because it was
25:06
sets in in 19. 82 as I've said so slightly before I was born.
25:12
And witchcraft really fascinated it.
25:15
It had always fascinated me from a a socio kind of political
25:18
point of view in the sense of how it was used kind of against
25:22
women. But I didn't know anything about
25:25
how one goes about practising witchcraft or what particularly
25:30
motivates you to call yourself a witch necessarily.
25:33
So I had to learn all about that and.
25:36
So yeah, I, I just really enjoyed kind of doing deep dives
25:41
into all of those things. And I, I really hate writing and
25:45
then having to break off and look something up, you know?
25:48
I, I like to feel like really prepared before I get going.
25:51
So for me actually the the best part of it was just getting all
25:55
my kind of ducks in a row and, and you know, planning and
25:58
feeling like I kind of knew what I was going to be doing.
26:03
Yeah, Yeah. That's, that's very interesting.
26:06
And was there any, did you, did you face any challenges or
26:09
anything that you recall being the hardest?
26:12
I, I think, I think you know what, that for me that the
26:16
hardest part is always once I've written a first draft of a
26:19
manuscript and then I always kind of put it in a drawer for a
26:22
couple of weeks just to give myself a break.
26:25
And then you get it out and you do a read through and and you
26:28
work out what needs editing and that.
26:32
First read through is so soul destroying so so much of the
26:36
time because I really push through with the first draft of
26:39
manuscript. I just get it written so I've
26:41
got something I can work. On.
26:43
But actually then when you're reading back, you know, a lot of
26:46
it is it needs changing up a little bit.
26:50
Some things don't work. There are some passages that are
26:53
just really bad, so it can be. Quite dispiriting reading
26:57
through and thinking that it needs a lot of work.
27:00
I mean, maybe there are some writers that can do like a
27:02
perfect first draft. I don't know.
27:04
I I certainly cannot. And I think being autistic, you
27:08
know, I'm very black and white in how I think about things.
27:11
So I get very despondent very easily.
27:14
So after I've read through a first draft, I've literally got
27:18
my head in my hands thinking oh. This is terrible.
27:20
This is the worst thing. Ever.
27:22
And then, you know, you get over it and you think, OK, well, this
27:26
needs to be changed and that needs to be changed and then
27:28
it'll be better. But I.
27:31
Think that can be hard as an autistic person, sort of finding
27:34
the middle ground and being sort of, you know, hopeful about
27:38
things that haven't quite worked out for the first.
27:41
Time, you know, so that's, that's the hardest bit for me.
27:43
Yeah, it's. Very hard to be hard on
27:47
yourself. Yeah, definitely.
27:50
Yeah. And do you have any routines or
27:54
sensory preferences that help when you write?
28:00
I, I think I'm definitely a morning person.
28:05
So I'm one of those people that kind of as the day goes on, my
28:09
brain steadily goes blur, you know, so I try and get most of
28:13
my writing done in the morning. And I think, I think minimising
28:22
sensory distractions, it's quite important to me actually
28:25
minimising distractions in general.
28:27
So again, like like a lot of autistic people, I have never
28:30
been able to multitask. So if I have lots of things to
28:34
do, even if it's just lots of little things, I get very
28:38
overwhelmed very quickly. And sometimes I'll just sort of
28:42
completely shut down and switch off because I just can't cope
28:44
with knowing that I have to get lots of things done and my
28:48
attention being pulled in those directions.
28:50
So it probably looks like procrastination, but I actually,
28:57
you know, if I've got to sort of e-mail somebody or check
28:59
something, blah, blah, blah, I will do all of that stuff before
29:02
I sit down to write just so that it's not knocking about in the
29:05
back of my head. And I think in, in sensory
29:09
terms, it's very much as I, I said, as I said about minimising
29:14
sensory sort of distractions because I'm, I'm the
29:16
hypersensitive end of, of autism.
29:18
So I know there's this. Kind of stereotype of, of, you
29:24
know, sort of the perfect writer sitting by this sort of lovely
29:26
open window or a sort of open French door with a beautiful
29:29
view. But I'm the opposite.
29:31
I tend to shut myself away. No music and.
29:36
You know my. My parents go to this this house
29:39
in Norfolk every year in March for a little holiday and I
29:43
normally go with them and there's this windowless walk in
29:47
laundry cupboard and I'll just shut myself in there and they'll
29:51
be like, oh, you, you're going up to your cupboard again, you
29:54
know, to do some writing. I'll be like, yes, yeah, I'm
29:56
going to my cupboard. So I like that feeling of safety
30:00
being quite enclosed when I write.
30:05
So that's the. Kind of environment that I tried
30:07
to kind of create for myself. Yeah, I think that makes sense
30:11
and it's whatever works best for you.
30:15
You know, some people work better with with music or
30:18
listening to a podcast. I, for example, cannot be doing
30:22
work and listening to a podcast at the same time because I just
30:26
feel like I'm not focusing on one or the other so.
30:30
I think that's such an autistic thing.
30:31
Or or you are just. Focusing on one and just
30:34
completely ignoring the other. And then you're thinking, well,
30:36
you know, there's there's no point in her trying to do both.
30:39
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
30:43
OK, so moving on to identity, so you your work explores autism,
30:51
the Jewish identity and and family.
30:56
So I'm sorry I'm having a bit of an issue here.
31:00
Don't worry, I didn't. Follow my questions because I
31:03
can't remember all of them. So how do these parts of who you
31:10
are connect with you? Well, I think I, being Jewish,
31:17
I, I've never actually grown up in a Jewish community.
31:23
My parents even in London, we lived in, in South London, but
31:27
there wasn't a synagogue anywhere near my, my parents
31:29
aren't particularly observant, especially my mum, because her
31:32
father wasn't Jewish. And so for me, being Jewish is
31:38
something that's always set me apart a little bit.
31:40
You know, it's, it's always made me an outsider, but also it's
31:45
always been something really special.
31:46
And, and again with the autism, you know, you, you grow up with
31:52
your mind working very differently to other peoples and
31:55
that affects how you perceive things, but also how other
31:59
people perceive you. And, and as I said at the
32:02
beginning, you know, I think the world can be a very confusing
32:05
and quite frightening place if, if you are autistic like that.
32:10
And it, and it can be confusing if if you're Jewish, but nobody
32:13
else around you is Jewish too. And I think learning that I was
32:17
Jewish and learning that I was autistic much later on, those
32:22
two things have been the only things that have ever really
32:25
made sense of myself. And I think obviously I learnt
32:30
that I was Jewish a lot, a lot sort of earlier than than when I
32:34
was autistic. But I, I think being Jewish and,
32:41
and working out how to be Jewish and how to express that identity
32:45
has been a really good rehearsal for them finding out that I was
32:50
autistic. So, you know, for me being
32:54
Jewish is an amazing thing. You know, it connects me to a
32:57
history and to a people and it really gives me roots.
33:03
And that's, that's, you know, before you even factor in the,
33:06
the faith side of things. But you, you learn quite quickly
33:10
that some people will try and use your identity against you
33:16
and they have an issue with you being Jewish and they will try
33:19
and make you feel ashamed or embarrassed about it.
33:23
And I think, I mean, unfortunately, I, I think
33:27
anti-Semitism is actually more prevalent now than when I was
33:30
growing up. It's, it's definitely sort of
33:32
been on the rise these last few years.
33:36
But even when I was growing up, I encountered it and you know,
33:40
nothing would ever make me embarrassed or ashamed of being
33:42
Jewish. And I think it's who I am.
33:45
And you have to sit in that with confidence.
33:48
So then when I found out that I was autistic, in a way it was a
33:51
similar thing. You know, I think there are lots
33:53
of parts of being autistic that are inherently difficult, but
33:58
there are lots of good things about it too.
34:00
And I think you then realise that other people choose to
34:06
stigmatise it, other people choose to use it against you.
34:09
And again, you have to just sit in it and say, well, no, this is
34:13
who I am, you know, and I'm, I'm not going to apologise for that.
34:16
So I think it's been a similar sort of process with both of
34:21
those things just being part of a minority group that isn't
34:24
necessarily that well understood all the time.
34:28
Yeah, I'm actually, I'm always interested in, in cultural
34:32
differences, you know, being a foreigner living in a in a
34:36
different country and you know, and acknowledging that even
34:40
though it's still Europe, that I'm white European, there's
34:45
still differences. So I'm quite curious to know
34:48
from you, what's the how is the acceptance of the Jewish
34:52
community on neural divergent and on on autism specifically?
34:58
Oh, it's, it's a very difficult one because because we're not, I
35:02
mean, again, like with the autistic community, we're not a
35:04
sort of homogeneous kind of people.
35:07
If you go more towards the Orthodox and Hassidic and
35:10
Haredi, the sort of end of due days and the real sort of ultra
35:14
Orthodox neurodivergence is actually seen as a state where
35:20
you're, you're actually kind of closer to God.
35:23
So in a, in a society where sort of holiness is, is everything
35:27
and that and that connection to God is, is always your main
35:30
motivation. Actually neurodivergence is, is
35:35
this sort of slightly exalted state.
35:38
But I, I think it very much depends.
35:40
I mean, I think to be honest, it depends on the individual
35:44
people, you know, I, I know sort of all Jewish communities try
35:48
and welcome everybody, you know, within their community as much
35:52
as possible. Obviously attitudes towards
35:56
neurodivergence, you know, change depending on your perhaps
36:00
perception of it, your age maybe, you know, So it, it, I, I
36:04
wouldn't say there's a sort of uniform attitude towards it
36:08
really. You know, I, I think, I think it
36:12
depends more on the people that you meet.
36:16
But, but there is that sort of line in, in the, in this sort of
36:21
ultra orthodox community that it is, it is really special.
36:27
So so there is that. Yeah, very interesting.
36:30
Yes, I I think across every culture, you know, it will be
36:35
different the way that neuro divergences is looked at.
36:41
But thank you for sharing because I I know this was not
36:44
one one of the questions that. That I had that's.
36:47
What I initially thought about So we talked about the how what
36:55
the representation of autistic women means in literature to
36:59
you. But how do you hope that
37:02
readers, both autistic and non autistic, will feel when they
37:06
read your stories? Well, I, I hope if you are an
37:12
autistic reader, then you feel seen a little bit and you can
37:16
relate to, to, to Evie as a character.
37:19
I mean, she's not the only. I would say autistic character
37:22
in the book, you know, I'd say you, you look at her family and
37:25
you can see those kind of threads.
37:29
And I, I hope if you're not an autistic reader, then you would
37:35
have found it interesting being immersed in Evie's world.
37:38
You know, she's, she's the protagonist.
37:40
It's very much her book, It's her voice, it's written first
37:43
person and it's her diary. So, so I, I, I hope that it is a
37:49
real, a real sort of immersive and hopefully interesting and
37:52
informative kind of experience for, for non autistic readers.
37:59
I mean I I try. I try not to think too much
38:04
about how people are going to perceive the the characters.
38:09
As I'm writing it, you know, I think you can't get too caught
38:12
up in that. I think obviously, you know,
38:15
you, you have to honour the fact that she's autistic and, and,
38:19
and portray her autism in the most authentic way possible.
38:23
And the same with her being Jewish, I think.
38:25
But, but at the same time, I, I sort of write for myself and I
38:29
think if you're writing with your voice and, and being honest
38:34
as a writer, I think people will relate to that rather than
38:38
thinking, well, I'd better put this in because people might
38:41
like that or people might not approve of.
38:43
This. You know, so, so I kind of I, I,
38:48
I hope that that people. Will find it enjoyable, but at
38:52
the same time I sort of try not to think about it too much.
38:55
I mean, the, the only thing that worried me slightly was the fact
38:58
that Evie was given an Asperger's diagnosis, because
39:01
obviously it's, I know some people still use the diagnosis
39:05
of Asperger's, but it is a bit of a, a hot topic and a bit of
39:08
a, a controversial thing. But but I think given that the
39:13
novel was set when it was, that's what would have happened.
39:18
Yeah. Yeah.
39:18
And I think people have been very sort of understanding about
39:21
that. So.
39:22
So I'm, I'm relieved about that. Yeah.
39:25
It, it makes it contextualized to, to the timing of of the
39:28
action. So that, that makes sense.
39:31
Yeah, yeah. OK.
39:34
And you've had an interesting career path, as you've
39:37
mentioned, so from science and ballet to mental health and and
39:42
writing. So how have all of these
39:45
experiences influenced your stories?
39:48
Well, I, I think, I think I've, I've just needed to assimilate a
39:55
lot of experience before I felt able to sit down as a writer and
40:00
craft stories. With.
40:02
Real people and real motivations and people going through real
40:06
things. You know, I think I, I think I
40:08
probably had quite a sheltered upbringing and I think as a
40:14
neurodivergent person, you know, I think sometimes we do develop
40:18
late, you know, we're, we're sometimes a bit late to the
40:21
party and, and you know. Other people sort of hit those
40:25
sort of developmental markers very sort of evenly.
40:28
And. And sort of within the time
40:29
frame that you're expected to and, and sometimes when you're
40:33
autistic, you're, you're precocious in some things, but
40:36
sort of sort of falling behind a bit in others.
40:39
And and so I. Think, yeah, I think it's quite
40:43
a sort of common thing and we just sometimes need more time.
40:45
So I think working in healthcare was great for me because I just
40:49
worked with people from all walks of life, a lot of people.
40:52
I worked with were autistic. And it just really shows you
40:59
just a, a kind of depth and breadth of life.
41:01
And it's so interesting to see how different people think and
41:08
how their backgrounds affect them and all that kind of thing.
41:11
So that was great for me as a writer.
41:13
And I think also, I think ballet in the dance world was really
41:18
great for my confidence because I, I think I did lack a lot of
41:22
confidence growing up. I was very cautious and and very
41:27
introverted. And again, like I said, you
41:30
know, ballet, it does give you that method of communication.
41:33
It's really expressive. And actually at my ballet
41:37
school, you know, most people weren't English.
41:42
And because there was that sort of that there was often a sort
41:47
of language divide in a way. We were all on a level playing
41:51
field. And I think that helped me fit
41:54
in and people were less judgmental of each other because
41:56
we were all so different. So that was a really lovely
42:00
experience for me. And you know, my ballet teacher,
42:03
Brigitta, she, she became like a mother to me.
42:05
She was a great role model. And it was a lovely environment
42:09
where I could push myself but also feel safe.
42:12
So I think that developed me a lot as a as as a person, which
42:16
then helped as a writer where there's the the sort of working
42:19
in healthcare just was really helpful showing me how other
42:24
people worked as well, which then helped me as a writer as
42:27
well. Yeah, yeah.
42:30
And do you at, at the moment, are you just writing or do you,
42:33
do you do any ballet or dance or do you do any of these past
42:38
experiences still? Well, I, I, I do still teach.
42:42
Teaching Pilates is kind of a little bit of a remnant of the
42:45
healthcare thing in a way, because I work with a lot of
42:48
people who have sort of conditions and things like that.
42:51
And ballet. I most mornings when I can, if,
42:55
if I'm, if I'm not too busy or teaching an early morning class,
42:58
I do try and do a bit of a ballet bar.
43:01
So I do dance a little bit. My ballet school, unfortunately
43:05
in London shut down. It didn't survive the pandemic
43:08
but but I I tend to use YouTube videos just because as well as
43:14
an autistic person it's less of a thing if I can Just Dance in
43:17
my own home. I normally get like 20 minutes
43:20
in. And then then my body starts
43:23
clicking and cracking and I think, no, I'm I'm actually 41
43:26
and I probably shouldn't be trying to throw my leg up by my
43:29
ears. So.
43:31
So it's not always the most therapeutic of experiences, but
43:35
but I do still try. Yeah, no, that's that's great.
43:39
And it doesn't matter if it's only 20 minutes, the love for it
43:44
is still there. You're still moving your body
43:46
anyway. Yeah.
43:48
And how do you what helps you manage your your energy and rest
43:52
and and keeping your minds creative for for your writing?
43:58
Well, I, I think actually telly does a lot.
44:01
I'm I'm a really visual person and I watch quite a lot of TV
44:04
and especially in the evenings. I.
44:06
Really use watching TV to regulate myself.
44:11
I'm quite dependent on it. And I think, you know, I, I need
44:19
a certain amount of time alone. Like, like all autistic people,
44:22
really, we need that time to recharge.
44:24
And, and especially I think if, if we are autistic people who
44:28
can and, and do mask, which I, I still do quite a lot when I'm
44:32
out. You need to have that space
44:35
where the mask just drops and you can, you can be you.
44:40
So, so I, I have my routines. I actually think, you know,
44:45
relating back to what we were just talking about, you know,
44:48
Pilatas teaching is great for me because it forces me to be
44:52
social and it's physical and, and writing.
44:55
Obviously, you know, I could easily become a hermit like far
44:58
too. Easily.
45:00
And, and it's very sedentary. So, so I think having that
45:04
physical side to my nature helps.
45:08
And I, I do also live about 9 or 10 miles from the coast, so
45:12
going to the, the water really helps too.
45:15
But I, I think with any autistic person, I think so much of our
45:19
well-being is also kind of tied up in a feeling of control.
45:23
I think we. We do need to sort of feel in
45:26
control of our lives. To a certain degree.
45:28
And I think for me that's very much managing things and knowing
45:34
what I'm going to be doing, knowing that I can prepare for
45:37
those things, knowing that I'm not going to be sort of swamped
45:40
or you know, have sort of some unexpected things.
45:43
So I guess, I guess that goes back to being a planner, but but
45:47
I think it's about finding that balance for yourself as to what
45:50
you can cope with probably. You know, and feeling that
45:55
that's your decision to make and that you know, you're, you're in
45:58
command of, of, of how you live your life.
46:00
I think that's a huge thing when you're autistic.
46:03
Yeah, absolutely. And so you're now based in rural
46:08
Suffolk and you, you swapped busy London for it and you just
46:13
mentioned that you are very close to the seaside as well.
46:17
So how? How has this change impacted
46:20
your well-being? Well, it's, it's, it's had a
46:24
huge impact. I mean, I, I moved out of London
46:26
because, I mean, I loved London, you know, and I, I am a
46:28
Londoner. It, it was my home, but it was
46:33
just starting to aggravate my senses constantly.
46:36
And there was just that low level stress all the time.
46:39
Well, sometimes. Not low level sometimes.
46:40
Fairly high level stress. And I was having to travel
46:45
around a lot for work and I was just finding that London again.
46:49
I, I wasn't diagnosed back then, but the way I would describe it
46:53
now looking back is that London was really starting to aggravate
46:56
my autism. And so moving, moving to the
47:02
country, it was a massive change.
47:04
But it, it gave me the calm and the quiet and the space.
47:08
And I think that helped my writing, you know, I could
47:10
really focus on my writing it. It is a bit sort of six of one
47:15
and half a dozen of the other in the sense that, you know, my
47:18
special interests do include going to ballet and the theatre
47:21
and exhibitions and things. So the lack of stimulation in
47:25
the country is wonderful, but I sometimes.
47:27
Miss the stimulation of the city so you could never have it kind
47:31
of both ways but but for. Now I'm I'm.
47:34
Happy being a country girl, I think.
47:38
Yeah. You cannot have it all, sadly.
47:40
No. Exactly.
47:43
Yeah. OK.
47:45
And in terms of community, what, what kind of response have you
47:50
received from the autistic and both the autistic and the Jewish
47:54
communities about your writing work?
47:58
Well, I, I was actually chatting to a friend of mine's mother
48:03
who's who's Jewish and in her mid 80s, and she was saying sort
48:07
of that she loved bits and pieces of the book.
48:09
And she was like, you have to be Jewish in order to know that and
48:12
write that. It's like that insider
48:14
perspective. And I was really relieved when
48:17
she said that. And I'm, you know, again, I
48:20
think as part of trying to keep my writing focused on what I
48:26
want to do, I don't really chase my reviews.
48:28
You know, I don't sort of go online and read them that much,
48:31
but people. Who have got in touch with me
48:34
have have all said really lovely things and I and I have read
48:37
some lovely reviews. So I think I think it's, it's
48:42
been good within the autistic community.
48:45
I've I've had some really lovely autistic advocates review the
48:48
book and then they've sort of said that they've really enjoyed
48:52
it and and again from from the Jewish people, I know it it's
48:57
been positive too. So so I'm hoping that.
48:59
That's that's the case. Yeah, yeah, that's very good to
49:04
hear. We'll have positive feedback.
49:07
And for those autistic people, or more specifically women in in
49:15
this case, who are thinking, you know, to share their stories and
49:20
start writing, would you have any advice to give to them?
49:26
You know, I would say perhaps, perhaps not all autistic people
49:31
feel this. I'm willing to bet a lot of them
49:33
do that. My experience growing up and
49:36
being autistic and not just growing up actually being an
49:39
adult as well, you are a bit of an outsider.
49:42
You are that. Person looking in you, you are
49:46
observing people. And a lot of the time you're
49:48
observing people a because you're fascinated because
49:52
they're so different. But also for survival, you need
49:54
to learn how to mimic those people.
49:56
You need to learn what's socially acceptable because the
50:01
way you do things is different. And that might not be the most
50:05
healthy of things psychologically, but I think
50:08
it's a huge advantage as a writer that you are sort of on
50:12
the outside and you are always looking at people and seeing
50:15
what they're doing. So I would say use that and I
50:18
would say the same for for any other part of your autism, any
50:23
other trait, you know, work out what your strengths are as an
50:26
autistic person and then use that in your writing.
50:30
I mean, obviously it, it requires slightly different
50:33
skills, writing a memoir, say, as opposed to writing a, a
50:37
fictional novel. But I, I think another thing I
50:42
would say is, you know, being autistic, there can sometimes be
50:46
these sort of blind spots in our perception.
50:49
You know, so sometimes we're doing something and we think
50:53
it'll be perceived a certain way and it's not, or vice versa with
50:57
people doing things and we're perceiving it.
50:59
You know, I would say writing is, is a great tool of
51:03
self-expression. And if you want to put your
51:05
experiences on a page, do. But then once you've done that,
51:09
remember that other people are going to be reading them.
51:12
And so that that that self-expression is your starting
51:16
point, then make it into a work of art.
51:19
You know, I'm not saying censor yourself in any way, but I'm
51:22
saying that, you know, make people want to turn the page,
51:27
you know, create something. Beautiful, you know, create a
51:31
work, not just a sort of a massive sort of diary entry of
51:35
your experience. Create, you know, something
51:38
that's really amazing as as a kind of craft, you know, as a
51:41
writer that's that's based on your experiences and then kind
51:46
of is lifted a little bit as well.
51:49
Yeah, that keeps people people engaged and and wanting more and
51:53
more to come. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:55
Definitely, yeah. So what is next for you?
51:58
Do you already have any plans for a new book or a new project?
52:03
So, so Evie was actually written a while ago.
52:06
And so there is, I've been writing this Jewish kind of
52:13
family saga about four sisters, and it's told from the
52:17
perspective of the youngest girl.
52:19
It's set around the time of the Millennium.
52:21
And they're a very sort of disparate family who sort of
52:24
don't necessarily get on that one.
52:26
It's told from the point of view of, of the youngest sister who
52:30
has been diagnosed with autism. And it's about that family sort
52:33
of finding their way back to each other.
52:35
So, so yes. And I'm, I'm actually, I'm
52:37
working on another one after that as well.
52:39
Because when, when I signed to my publisher, I knew because of
52:43
their schedules that it'd be 18 months before EV was published.
52:48
So, so it's actually been quite a long gap since I wrote EV.
52:53
So yeah, I've I've been working on some other things.
52:57
Yeah, good. We are looking forward to have
52:59
them ready whenever. Great.
53:04
So now focusing more on on your journey and this is the the last
53:10
section of of the interview. Who is your biggest support?
53:16
I mean, I should probably say my parents at this point, but I
53:19
think it's actually my French bulldog, Loretta.
53:22
I know, it's, I know it's an awful thing to say, but just, I
53:25
mean, I love, I love that really strong bond we have as autistic
53:30
people with animals, you know, and Loretta is my constant
53:33
companion and she gives me so much unconditional love.
53:37
It's just been amazing to have her.
53:39
She's a rescue and she is quite anxious.
53:43
She doesn't really get on well with other dogs and she's very
53:46
set in her routine. I mean, I swear she's an
53:48
autistic dog, but. But she's.
53:53
Yeah, yeah. But she's, you know, she's.
53:57
My my companion and I. Honestly don't think I could
54:01
probably cope with having a human as a as a constant
54:05
companion. So so.
54:07
I mean, it's really, really lovely.
54:09
To have to have Loretta, yeah. Good.
54:13
I think it's the 1st guest who who names the dog as the
54:16
biggest. Supporter.
54:17
So that's that's very good. Well, I don't know.
54:20
I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not really, but anyway.
54:23
No, I, I think it is, you know, I think we all know that animals
54:27
are, you know, they can be more loyal than, than people and
54:31
sometimes better companions. So absolutely valued and, and,
54:37
and admirable. Definitely.
54:41
And who is your biggest inspiration?
54:44
Oh, well, do you know, when I was young, I, I think again,
54:47
when you're, when you're autistic, you get these really
54:50
kind of fierce obsessions with people sometimes.
54:53
And I was absolutely obsessed with Elizabeth the 1st when I
54:56
was young. So I wanted to be a kind of
54:58
cross between Elizabeth the 1st and Bette Midler.
55:02
And I'm not sure how that's working out for me to be
55:04
perfectly honest. But I, I think, I think when I
55:08
was dancing my, my role model was Maya Plisetzkaya.
55:12
She was she was prima ballerina of the Bolshoi during the Soviet
55:17
years and she was a Jewish woman and came up against a lot of
55:23
anti-Semitism and a lot of prejudice during her career.
55:26
And she just coped with that by dancing better than everybody
55:29
else, which, you know, I think is a great message.
55:33
And she was just an amazing woman, you know, so beautiful
55:36
and such a beautiful dancer. And I think I'm lucky, you know,
55:41
within my own family. So my, my grandmother was a
55:43
novelist. She was an incredibly
55:47
intelligent woman who did not suffer fools gladly.
55:51
And unfortunately, she, she died when I was 11.
55:54
So she's never seen me get my, my novels into print.
55:58
But but yeah, she, she was always somebody to look up to.
56:02
And actually, my, my great, great aunt Nina, she was a poet
56:07
and a translator. And this is, you know, this is
56:10
at the turn of the last century, so, you know, quite a while ago.
56:15
And she was a key figure in the Jewish women's suffrage
56:19
movement. So she was a suffragette.
56:22
She had six children. She brought up her daughters,
56:25
you know, she educated them to the same level as her sons.
56:27
She expected them to have careers, which they did, you
56:30
know, so. So she was a truly amazing
56:34
woman. And I still read some of her
56:37
poems sometimes. She's, she's a real inspiration,
56:40
you know, big, big shoes to fill.
56:42
But but yeah, I, I, I really look up to both her and my
56:47
grandmother. Yeah.
56:49
Well, there's a lot of talents in in the family and that's
56:53
quite fascinating to see. Thank you and I don't know if
56:58
you are much into superheroes, but if you were a superhero or
57:04
had a superpower, who or would that be?
57:07
Yeah. I'm I'm not really that that
57:09
into to superheroes, to be honest.
57:11
I I thought the sort of power that I would most like and maybe
57:15
I should be telling this to a therapist is probably
57:19
invisibility. I'd love to be able to be
57:23
invisible, you know, just to, I think sometimes, you know, just
57:28
to be able to kind of slip between situations.
57:30
And I think again, it comes back to perhaps being a writer and
57:32
liking to watch people and finding people really
57:35
fascinating. It'd be nice to do that
57:37
sometimes without people knowing that they're being watched,
57:41
which, yeah, which sounds really creepy.
57:43
And I don't mean it to sound like that, but yeah, that that
57:47
would probably I, I guess, be my superpower.
57:50
Yeah, I don't think it sounds creepy.
57:52
You know from the the the observation point of view it is
57:57
still to sense and then you just, you know, write about it
58:01
without being. Noticed because exactly.
58:03
The truth is that if you if you stage things too much when you
58:07
are observing, then you know the natural response is not going to
58:11
be the same. Exactly.
58:13
Not creepy at all. OK.
58:15
OK. Thank you.
58:18
And if if there was a song that captures your journey in this
58:25
case as as yourself, as as a writer, as being your divergent,
58:31
which one would that be and how does that resonate with you?
58:35
So, so I'm, I'm a very sort of impatient person and, and like
58:41
we touched on before, I'm quite black and white about things.
58:44
And I'll set a goal and I'll want to it to happen immediately
58:48
and I'll want it to happen exactly as I envisaged.
58:50
So I'm not the best process kind of person and I'm not the best
58:56
at dealing with setbacks or when things happen slightly
58:59
differently or when I have to wait.
59:01
And I always joke that I then kind of need to lock myself in a
59:05
dark room and listen to Miley Cyrus's The Climb on repeat for
59:08
20 minutes. Just because I think that song
59:12
honestly for for me, it genuinely has quite an important
59:16
message in the sense that you sometimes just have to
59:19
appreciate the fact that you're working towards something rather
59:22
than the fact that you have achieved something or have not
59:26
achieved something. And I think it's it's sort of
59:29
reminding me that there is that kind of grey area in that
59:33
process. And that's fine.
59:34
And I think as an. Autistic person, sometimes you,
59:39
you, you, you go over the past a lot and things that have
59:42
happened and you worry a lot about the future.
59:44
But being in the present is isn't necessarily the easiest
59:47
thing. So I think that's quite a good
59:51
reminder that sometimes you just have to enjoy it as it's
59:54
happening and not look towards the end too much.
59:57
You know, I, I will say as well, there's a song called I Told You
1:00:02
So by Carrie Underwood that I was listening to on repeats.
1:00:07
Leading up to my autism assessment, because I was sort
1:00:10
of, it was, it was my song of the moment.
1:00:12
And whenever I hear it now, I have this kind of Pavlovian
1:00:16
response and I get really nervous about my upcoming autism
1:00:18
assessment, even though it was years ago.
1:00:21
But that's the song that reminds me of being assessed.
1:00:25
So that's that's a bit of a strange one, but.
1:00:29
Yeah, I think music. Music can be so powerful, you
1:00:34
know, to the point of, yeah, of, of reminding you of, of, of
1:00:39
having those, that same emotion of something you had years ago.
1:00:44
So. Yeah, Well, great.
1:00:46
Thank you. Thank you for sharing.
1:00:49
And I think this is a a good one for you, especially because you
1:00:53
were late diagnosed. If you had the chance to go back
1:00:57
in time, what would you tell your younger self?
1:01:03
Do you know, I've, I've thought about this a lot because also
1:01:05
you, you see it quite a lot in the autistic community and on
1:01:08
social media and things, people writing letters to their younger
1:01:11
selves. I think for me, you know,
1:01:15
honestly having a thought about it, I, I would tell my younger
1:01:18
self that you are autistic and, and that's OK, you know, and
1:01:24
that's, that's what, that's what I would say.
1:01:28
Fair enough. Makes absolute sense.
1:01:32
And what are your hopes for the future, Harriet?
1:01:37
In terms of myself, you know, I, I hope to keep writing and keep
1:01:42
getting published and I hope to stay healthy.
1:01:45
You know, I, there's a lot about kind of skills regression in
1:01:49
autism and I know if I'm really stressed or burnt out, I, I lose
1:01:54
my capacity for memory or some of my sort of skill sets.
1:01:57
I think. So I'm quite, you know, I'm
1:01:59
trying to kind of live in in a way that that minimises that as
1:02:04
much as possible. And I think in broader terms, in
1:02:08
terms of the autistic community, I hope understanding of an
1:02:14
acceptance of autism keeps moving forwards.
1:02:17
I hope that people who sort of spreads misinformation around
1:02:22
autism for, for whatever agenda, I hope they don't manage to push
1:02:26
us back. And, and so yes, I, I just hope
1:02:31
that we can move forward and develop.
1:02:34
And as you said, I think, you know, it's about representation
1:02:39
in, from, from all aspects of the spectrum as well.
1:02:42
I think we're still as autistic people in the very early days of
1:02:46
really finding our feet and communicating and saying, well,
1:02:50
no, our, our experience is important.
1:02:53
And here's what we want you to know.
1:02:54
And here's how you want to, you know, here's how we want you to
1:02:58
address us. And here's the language we don't
1:03:00
want you to use around us, you know, but I, I hope that given
1:03:05
time, you know, that representation will be really
1:03:07
broad and our voices will be more a part of, of, of popular
1:03:12
culture and everyday life. So.
1:03:15
So those are my hopes, I think. Yeah, yeah.
1:03:19
And, and you know, and, and to, to be part of policy making and
1:03:25
you know, everything like the healthcare system, the education
1:03:29
system. We definitely need more autistic
1:03:32
voices and neurodivergent voices to to be part of all of these.
1:03:36
Yeah, yeah. No, I completely agree.
1:03:38
It's, it's, it's nothing about us without us, isn't it?
1:03:41
I think. Exactly, exactly.
1:03:43
But I think I really believe that together, you know, just by
1:03:46
having this conversation and every conversation I have with,
1:03:50
with my podcast guests and, and people who I connect with and,
1:03:53
and are curious about it. Because I I think we all agree
1:03:58
that curiosity is a very simple thing, that if people would be
1:04:03
more curious, then I think the world would already be a better
1:04:08
place for neuro divergent, for the neuro divergent community.
1:04:12
Yeah, I agree. I think it, it drives us
1:04:14
forward. And I think that's actually
1:04:15
what's great about being autistic.
1:04:17
We have that constant kind of thirst for knowledge and to find
1:04:20
out about things and do these really sort of deep dives into
1:04:22
things, you know? But yeah, I, I agree.
1:04:26
And I, you know, I think you, you provide a great platform
1:04:29
there by letting people share their experiences.
1:04:31
So. Yeah.
1:04:33
Yeah, and it's really fantastic to see how each of of my guests
1:04:41
and you know, and myself as well with, with the podcast, but how
1:04:45
creative and how many amazing initiatives everyone brings and,
1:04:52
and how yes, again, every, every single one of us is doing a
1:04:58
small part to to make things better.
1:05:01
And, and that really warms my heart and, and makes me to keep
1:05:05
going even on days when I feel like, you know, I have the
1:05:09
imposter syndrome and I'm like, what am I doing here?
1:05:12
Yeah. Quite often.
1:05:15
Yeah, no. Me too, I I do get imposter
1:05:17
syndrome too. And I think like you said, I
1:05:19
just think you have to remind yourself that, you know, your
1:05:22
voice matters and, and moving forward and you know.
1:05:25
All our voices. Have to come together and and
1:05:27
then that'll hopefully create something really positive.
1:05:31
Yeah, definitely. OK, and finally, if your heart
1:05:36
had a voice, what would they tell us?
1:05:40
Well, I think, I think similar to what we've just been talking
1:05:43
about, I, I think, I think what it would say is that your people
1:05:47
matter. And I think that that's
1:05:49
obviously going to be very different to each person.
1:05:51
For some people that might be family, for other people, it
1:05:53
might be friends. I, I think if you're autistic,
1:05:56
it's maybe that wider community of autistic people too, as, as a
1:06:01
Jewish person, it's, it's, it's Jewish people for me as well.
1:06:04
And I, I think it's just about finding those deeper connections
1:06:10
with people who've shared experiences with you and have
1:06:13
those, those similarities and, and those sort of special
1:06:17
stories. And I think, you know, once you
1:06:20
find those people who are your people, you know, we should, we
1:06:22
should look after each other. So that's that's what my heart
1:06:26
would say. Yeah, great.
1:06:30
Thank you, Harriet. It has been a great pleasure to
1:06:35
get to know you, to learn all about your your lived
1:06:39
experience. And yeah, I hope we can stay
1:06:43
connected in the future and maybe you come back to talk
1:06:47
about your next book at some point, whenever it's out.
1:06:52
Yeah, no, I would love that. And thank you very, very much
1:06:54
for having me. It's been really lovely to talk
1:06:56
to you. You're most welcome to everyone.
1:07:01
Follow Harriet and yeah, go and read her book and her blog and
1:07:07
I'm sure you will. It will be very helpful for
1:07:11
everyone and I'll see you all soon.
1:07:14
Bye. Thank you for listening or
1:07:34
watching the Neuro Diverse Voices Podcast.
1:07:37
If today's conversation resonated with you, please know
1:07:41
that you are not alone. Your experience matters, your
1:07:46
voice matters, and your way of being in the world is valid.
1:07:51
I'm Andrea Costa, and this podcast exists to celebrate
1:07:55
neurodivergent lives in all their complexity, strength, and
1:07:59
individuality. If you enjoy this episode,
1:08:02
please subscribe, share it, and help these stories reach the
1:08:06
people who may need them the most.
1:08:08
Join me again next time for more honest conversations, powerful
1:08:13
stories, and diverse perspectives because every neuro
1:08:17
divergent journey is different. And remember, when you meet one
1:08:21
neuro divergent person, you've only met one neuro divergent
1:08:25
person. Until next time, take care, bye.