Latest / The Connected Mom / Finding Courage When It's All Falling Apart
Transcript
- Becky Harling (00:02.349) Welcome to the Connected Mom Podcast where we have real conversations helping you to connect more deeply with God, more empathically with your fellow moms, and more intentionally with your child. I'm Becky Harling, your host. And you know, I've been thinking a lot about suffering lately and just the doubts that come along with that in our walk and journey with Jesus. And it seems like the more stories I hear, the more I go back to God and ask questions like, how can we really help others who are in the suffering journey? How do we keep our faith resilient in that journey? And how do we come up the other side a little stronger in our relationship with Jesus? Today's host with me is Michelle Kuschat. And I am so excited to have Michelle here on the show. She's a bestselling author and international speaker. She's the mother of six kids, several adopted. They're a blended family. So there's that whole element to this. And then she is a three-time cancer survivor. And I am so excited to get into this conversation with her. Michelle has just come out with a new book called A Faith That Will Not Fail. think about all you mamas out there, and I think no matter where you are on the motherhood journey, you need today's message. So lean in as we get started with this conversation. Well, welcome, Michelle. Michele Cushatt (01:37.067) Thank you, Becky. That was quite an intro. Thank you for that. Becky Harling (01:40.717) Yeah, it is great to have you with us. And so, okay, tell us about your family first. Michele Cushatt (01:44.414) Likewise. Okay. I am married to Troy and he, as much as I do things online and in the public world, he is the opposite, uber private. So, but he's a contractor, home inspector. He does lots of custom remodeling. He's just a very, very talented man. We have six kids, ages, are you ready for this? 31, 30, 26, 17, 16, 16. Becky Harling (01:58.207) Okay! Michele Cushatt (02:15.474) Four boys, two girls, and as of just a month ago, a daughter-in-law now. So, it's fun. So now I tell people I have seven kids because we have to count the daughter-in-law as well. And we live in Colorado on eight acres, kind of in the middle of nowhere where I have wildlife outside my window on a very frequent occasion. And Becky Harling (02:21.508) Oh, that's fun. Becky Harling (02:29.859) Yeah. Michele Cushatt (02:41.098) And now I'm an author speaker. I'm also an executive coach. I've done a lot of leadership work in the corporate space And so I like especially helping Women leaders women leaders who have some kind of basis of faith Really use their gifts to their full extent in the one life that they've been given. So that's another unique passion of mine Becky Harling (03:04.165) I love that. I love leaders and I love speaking leaders, so I resonate with you on that. So I think some of your kids are adopted, right? Michele Cushatt (03:09.522) Mm hmm. Yes. Michele Cushatt (03:17.138) Yes, my youngest three, my 16, 17 are foster adopted. They've been with us now for, gosh, 12 years. Is that right? 12 years. So they've been with us a very long time since they were four, and five, but they are foster adopted. Becky Harling (03:34.377) Wow, so the two that are 16, are they twins? Michele Cushatt (03:37.826) They are twins, boy, girl, and the 17-year-old is only nine months older. So people call them Irish triplets, but this is what I say, three months out of the year, they're the same age. And so that was really, really fun when they were 6'6", and when they were 13', 13'. Everybody made all kinds of jokes about me. Becky Harling (03:47.054) Yep. Becky Harling (03:58.533) Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. I, you know, we share a lot of passions, Michelle, because I'm pretty passionate about the whole foster care system and adoption. We have one of our grandkids is adopted and, um, my kids actually are missionaries to the foster care system. And so I love that you're doing that. I just think that is a beautiful path of discipleship. So you, you are also a three. Michele Cushatt (04:07.718) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (04:16.126) Hmm Michele Cushatt (04:23.224) Yes. Becky Harling (04:27.537) time cancer survivor. You know, that gives me pause to say that, because cancer is a big word. And tell us what you can about your journey. Michele Cushatt (04:39.902) Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can tell you my initial diagnosis came when I was 39 years old. I was a mom. This is before we had fostered these youngest three kids. So I was a mom of three boys. They were in middle school and high school. And just on an ordinary Tuesday before Thanksgiving, I got a phone call from my doctor. I had an ulcer on the side of my tongue that refused to heal, which happens to all of us from time to time. But this one was really pesky, like it just would not go away. And I found out that day after a biopsy that I had squamous cell carcinoma of the tongue, in other words, cancer of the tongue, which I didn't know was even a thing. Like I had no idea it was a thing. And, you know, add to that the fact that I've done ministry, teaching Bible studies, traveling around the world, speaking, doing women's retreats, conferences, corporate events. Becky Harling (05:18.437) Wow. Michele Cushatt (05:34.958) And I train speakers. That's another thing that I do is I help speakers put together their presentations. So it wasn't just getting cancer. It was getting a cancer diagnosis at really the heart of my identity, who I am. And then later on top of that, the fact that I still had three kids at home. And as a mom and a woman who was healthy and did all the quote unquote right things, I ate the healthy food and exercise and all of that, none of it made sense. And so it was very... Becky Harling (05:37.39) Yes. Becky Harling (05:52.268) Yeah. Michele Cushatt (06:05.05) earth shattering for me to go through. That initial diagnosis was cancer caught early, but and they thought they told me they got it all. I never had to worry about it again. But as it turns out, cancer of the tongue is very difficult to get rid of. And a couple years later, about three years later, I found out it had come back for a second time. And then about eight or nine months after that second diagnosis, it came back a third time. Becky Harling (06:07.286) Yeah, sure. Michele Cushatt (06:32.33) And by the third time, it was so extensive that they basically gave me two weeks to get my affairs in order. At which point in time, they put me in the hospital and did a nine hour surgery where they removed two thirds of my tongue, did an incision on my neck about six inches long where they took out my sub-mandibular gland, a dozen lymph nodes or so, also a couple incisions on my arm, my leg to kind of put this Humpty Dumpty back together again. So when you take out... your tongue and all of this part of your jaw and your mouth and everything else, you have to kind of rebuild it. And so they put me back together again, gave me about a month to recover from that surgery. And then they started external radiation and chemotherapy. And yeah, without going into detail, the damage when you do radiation on the face and the neck, it's significant, the damage is significant. And so Becky Harling (07:22.067) Mm, mm. Becky Harling (07:26.47) Mmm. Michele Cushatt (07:28.242) By the time all was said and done, I had burns from my nose to my chest on the inside and out of my body. And it literally took me two years to kind of come back to life from that, learn how to eat, drink, swallow again. The fact that I'm talking to you today is a miracle. But you can imagine how that kind of very acute long-term crisis and then now my lingering disability related to that. has impacted my ability as a mom, as a wife, and even just the trauma of going through that has impacted our lives, our family's life as a whole forever. Becky Harling (08:09.921) Yeah. Wow. What a story, Michelle. And it, you know, how has it impacted your faith? Michele Cushatt (08:18.199) Well, all of it. Like there's not, I make a little bit of a joke when I travel and speak and I talk about how there was not an inch of my body or heart, mind, soul that was not impacted, except for my right leg. My right leg managed to come out of that unscathed. But I mean, the right leg. But yeah, I mean, there's really no part, I grew up in the Christian family. My parents became Christians when I was just about six months old. Becky Harling (08:30.511) Yeah. Becky Harling (08:35.845) Yay for the right leg! Michele Cushatt (08:46.282) So I've never known life without Jesus in it, and yet on many levels, it was a relatively untested faith until I went through all of these different circumstances. And so I had to go back to the basics and go, what do I really believe? Do I believe God is real? Like, do I actually believe there is a God? Can there be this much suffering and can there be a God that exists? Becky Harling (09:04.433) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (09:12.338) If God is real, do I believe he's good? And if he's real and he's good, can I trust him? Those are the three kind of basics of faith that I had to go back to and wrestle with to not completely walk away from faith altogether. Becky Harling (09:17.617) Hmm Becky Harling (09:27.361) I think that is really profound because I think a crisis like you went through really does force those faith questions. And unfortunately, often people take one of two approaches. Either they walk away entirely because they're disappointed with God, right? He didn't come through for them. Or a lot of times they just seem to ignore it. Michele Cushatt (09:37.942) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (09:47.882) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (09:53.814) Mm-hmm. Becky Harling (09:54.185) And then they have this kind of pseudo fake faith, if you will. You know? And so why was it important to you to go back to the beginning and just say, okay, what exactly do I believe? Michele Cushatt (09:59.678) Yeah. Michele Cushatt (10:08.054) Mm-hmm. Well, at that point, because of the extent, the extreme nature of my suffering, the pseudo-faith was not going to work for me anymore. Like, it was not going to be enough for me to play church. Either this was real and it needed to have some kind of value, some kind of worth to hang on to it. Becky Harling (10:17.699) Yeah. Michele Cushatt (10:29.494) or I needed to let go of it altogether. There was no middle ground, lukewarm kind of ground for me to stand on anymore. It had to be all in or not in at all. And I think that's one of the gifts of this kind of suffering is you can't just play the game anymore. It has to be one or the other. And so for me, that's what it came down to. And what followed as I was coming through just the physical challenges, as I started to be well enough Becky Harling (10:39.953) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (10:59.186) and my pain was under control enough, that's when I started the soul wrestling, the emotional, spiritual wrestling and the pain of that. And so, I think you're right, that people tend to do one of two things. They tend to either kind of completely walk away from it or they... Becky Harling (11:04.613) Mmm. Michele Cushatt (11:21.398) kind of take this middle ground, the middle ground wasn't going to work for me. And that's who I want to speak to right now, the people that are really wrestling, like they don't want to walk away, but playing church and religion isn't going to do it. It's not going to cut it. And that's where this whole idea of what if though, we hang in there, we allow ourselves to wrestle with the questions. We allow ourselves to even give voice to the doubts and the difficulties and trust. Becky Harling (11:29.594) Mm. Michele Cushatt (11:51.222) that in telling the truth about our pain, that we might not lose our faith, but finally experience a richness of faith that we've always needed and wanted. Becky Harling (12:00.837) Hmm. I love that so much, Michelle. And I need to ask you, so was there anybody, like, did you have a community come around you as you were wrestling? Or did people, you know, kind of look at you horrified, like, she's wrestling, you know, she's a Christian author and speaker. They're not supposed to wrestle. I mean, what did that journey look like for you? Michele Cushatt (12:16.127) I'm out. Michele Cushatt (12:23.902) Yes. Well, that's part of why I spend so much time and energy now talking about faith and suffering is because there was a shortage of people who had the ability to hang in there during this place of doubt and question and wrestling without being appalled by it. Right. So When you get to the depths of that kind of despair, the kind of despair that we see Job experienced in the book of Job, we see Elijah experience when he was despairing of life, we see Becky Harling (12:41.134) Yeah. Michele Cushatt (12:53.042) other people throughout the Bible who are asking the hard questions. What we do discover is we don't always do a great job as Christian believers of allowing people to have a messy faith, you know, to wrestle and ask questions and to be in that place of confusion. And yes, I definitely did have a couple friends who were able to hold space there and allow me to tell the truth about my suffering. Becky Harling (13:06.212) Mmm. Michele Cushatt (13:20.75) But the vast majority couldn't. They didn't know what to do with it because my pain was just too big, my spiritual pain and my physical pain. And so that's why I think this conversation that you and I are having is so critical for us to learn, basically relearn some important truths, okay? And one of those important truths that I wanted to say out loud really quickly here, but allow it to sink in, is that Becky Harling (13:26.373) Hmm Michele Cushatt (13:50.21) Having questions about what you believe is not a lack of faith. Having questions is just asking questions. It means that you're allowing your brain to do what it does, to think about what you believe. So having questions, being confused, feeling a little bit lost, it's part of wrestling with the mystery of God, the God who is bigger than we are. Becky Harling (13:57.412) Mmm. Becky Harling (14:20.401) Mm. Michele Cushatt (14:20.799) And so just because you are hurting and wrestling doesn't mean you have a lack of faith. It means that you actually are processing and thinking through the reality of life and the promise of the gospel. You're wrestling with that and that's okay. Becky Harling (14:36.969) Yeah. I love that you said that because I think a lot of people, when they begin to wrestle, they feel guilty. Like, oh my word, I feel so guilty that I'm even wrestling with this. But then they don't maybe bring it out truthfully. And it would be far healthier emotionally and spiritually to bring it out truthfully because we see this all through the scripture. So that brings me to another question. You know, one of the principles that you talk about in your book, Michele Cushatt (14:44.735) Yes, exactly. Michele Cushatt (14:56.077) Uh huh. Michele Cushatt (15:01.742) Okay. Becky Harling (15:05.817) is lamenting, you know, and probably some of us, I know myself, you know, I grew up in a home where it was, you know, oh, rejoice in the Lord always, you know, and again I say rejoice. And honestly, my personality, I tend to be rather positive. However, there is the sacred space, the sacred practice of lamenting. And that's really important to our spiritual journeys. Talk to us about that. Michele Cushatt (15:07.222) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (15:18.046) Yes. Michele Cushatt (15:33.97) Yeah, lament is kind of an ancient term and we don't use it every day. But very simply, by definition, lament is the vocalization of grief. It's giving voice to the pain that we hold inside. So it's telling the truth about our suffering, telling the truth about our losses. OK. And lament is even more powerful when we do it corporately, when we're allowed to give voice to our grief and our pain and other people. witness it, bear witness to it, that they allow it to happen. That's one of the ways that we fail as a modern church is one, we tend to shame and guilt people for feeling grief and sadness for longer than we think they should, and then we don't know what to do. We're so uncomfortable by other people's grief that we are unable to bear witness to it. And what we see throughout Scripture, in fact, There's an entire book on lament, it's called Lamentations. Like one of the 66 books of the Bible is all on lament. But we also have Psalms of lament. We have Jeremiah who's called the weeping prophet. We have Jesus lamenting in the Garden of Gethsemane. We have him weeping over Jerusalem. So we don't only see it in the Old Testament, but we see Emmanuel, God with us, practicing lament, like the perfect Holy Son of God. Becky Harling (16:33.781) Yep. Becky Harling (16:46.021) Mmm. Becky Harling (16:59.451) Mmm. Michele Cushatt (16:59.63) practicing lament and that means there is value in the practice of lament for our spiritual growth and development. The key of lament, okay, so the difference between just complaining or venting and lament is we're taking our grief and we're taking our sorrow and we're telling the truth about it to the one who can do something about it and that's God himself. Becky Harling (17:23.981) Hmm. I love that. I love that definition for it because I do think, you know, we're called in the body of Christ to comfort one another. However, a lot of people have misunderstood that as, oh, I need to fix another, you know, I need to fix this grief because it's making me uncomfortable and I don't want them to feel sad anymore, so let me fix it for them. But that's not what Jesus calls us to. Michele Cushatt (17:32.94) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (17:39.192) Yes. Michele Cushatt (17:42.807) Yep. Michele Cushatt (17:46.37) So let's, no it's not. And let's talk about that word comfort because it's really fascinating. Within the word comfort is the word fort, okay? And it comes from the Latin, which is comfortere, I'm not saying it correctly, but comfortere. And the word fort, and what it actually means is not to produce ease. So we think of comfort as like taking a couple of Tylenol and relieving our pain, numbing our pain. Becky Harling (17:56.781) Yes. Becky Harling (18:13.509) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (18:14.494) or eating comfort foods, which makes us feel better in the moment. But the definition of comfort in the Bible, when we talk about weak comfort, with the comfort we ourselves have received, is this idea of not taking away suffering or fixing pain, but enabling those who are in a place of suffering or pain to help fortify them to endure it, right? Becky Harling (18:39.395) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (18:39.542) So this idea of force, that force, fortifying us to be able to endure our circumstances. And that entails, imagine one person enduring circumstances versus 10 people linking arms and enduring it. Who is stronger? The single person or the 10 people who are fortifying together. So it's not necessarily taking away the challenge. In most cases, it's not. Becky Harling (18:58.128) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (19:04.266) It's aligning ourselves, linking arms with each other, and fortifying ourselves to endure it together. That's what comfort is all about. Becky Harling (19:13.489) Yeah, I love that so much. And I think of our moms who are listening, and no matter what season of motherhood you're in, whether you're raising toddlers or grade school children or high school kids, or whether your kids are grown, you need other moms in the mix with you who are going to be that comforting, fortifying of your soul for you because... Michele Cushatt (19:28.43) Mm-hmm. Yes. Becky Harling (19:36.305) motherhood is a long journey. It's probably the hardest journey any of us are ever going to make. So when we're in the hard moments of motherhood, we need each other. We need our friends and our fellow moms to lean in and listen and bring that comfort that scripture talks about. So, Michelle, in your book, you talk about 10 practices that sustained you. Michele Cushatt (19:41.238) Yes. Michele Cushatt (19:46.498) Yes. Michele Cushatt (19:59.597) Mm-hmm. Becky Harling (20:01.961) Okay. But I'm thinking of the mom who is completely overwhelmed. You know, maybe her suffering is that she's had a special needs child that she didn't anticipate. She's completely and categorically overwhelmed. And she hears 10 practices and she says, each I'm out. So I didn't bring this up until pretty far into the podcast. Cause I didn't want to lose our moms in the beginning. What would you say to her? Did she have to do all 10? Michele Cushatt (20:06.377) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (20:10.39) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (20:19.947) Yeah, exactly. Yes. Michele Cushatt (20:27.146) Yeah. No, and you know, it's so interesting because I wrestled with whether or not to use the word practices because it feels like homework. I used to be a piano teacher and I always told my piano students I had to practice every day and it was a bad word. Like nobody wanted to practice. But I want to reframe this word because I'm not talking about doing more. Practices are, think of it in terms of being more present to the work that's already been done. In other words. Becky Harling (20:35.183) Yeah. Becky Harling (20:42.85) Right. Michele Cushatt (20:55.366) God is present with us. And so the practice I talk about, like the practice of lament, it's being present to the reality of your circumstances. It's not mustering up positivity and quoting scripture and all of that, even though those have value at times. It's just being present to the truth. I talk about the practice of humility. Humility is just acknowledging our... position in the presence of God, like not trying to be more perfect than we are, but just telling the truth about that. Or like you talked about, the practice of community. That's one of the practices. And that's just acknowledging that we aren't wired up to do this alone, that we need each other. And so when we think of these practices, it's not about the checklist of you doing more. It's about you breathing, inhaling, exhaling. Becky Harling (21:30.223) Hmm. Becky Harling (21:35.524) Yes. Michele Cushatt (21:45.222) and practicing what's already been done, that God has already done the heavy lifting and that we don't have to perform our way to his good graces, we don't have to earn his love, that we can just sit and rest and be present to the work he's already done. Becky Harling (22:00.525) And I think ultimately that's quite freeing, right? Because I've talked with so many moms and likely you have as well, who are trying to reach some state of perfection, either in their kids, in their homes, in their parenting style. And this practice of being present, it's really very freeing, you know? So maybe it's present overdoing the dishes at this moment. Or... Michele Cushatt (22:04.307) it is. Michele Cushatt (22:12.379) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (22:22.972) Yes. Michele Cushatt (22:27.059) Yes, totally. Becky Harling (22:28.537) being present to playing with your kids on the floor or being present to the teen whose life is falling apart because a boyfriend or a girlfriend broke up with them, right? It's very freeing actually, you know, and I think it, so how do these practices sustain our faith? Because so often we think of faith as something we do, you know, we go to church, we read our Bibles, we pray, we may memorize scripture. We Michele Cushatt (22:46.787) Mm-hmm Becky Harling (22:55.161) we worship, you know, so we have all those practices, but how do your practices help us, you know, really bolster our faith? Michele Cushatt (23:05.026) Well, one of the practices I talk about, yeah, I talk about the practice of contentment, the practice of perspectives, the practice of relinquishment. Those three, I find have been very helpful to me as I've raised six kids. So I've had teenagers. Well, let's just say I've been parenting for three decades now, 30 years. And I have I've had I've had teenagers in my home for 18 of those years, which is us. Becky Harling (23:24.537) Way to go. Michele Cushatt (23:30.794) This is why I have gray hair and this afternoon I will go and color my hair because that's just my reality. But perspective, contentment, and relinquishment have been so key. For a long time in my early years of mothering, I felt like whether or not my children grew up to be positive, healthy, functional adults, that pressure was completely on my shoulders. It was all up to me. And so I felt... Becky Harling (23:55.903) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (23:57.298) a weight of guilt and responsibility and the need to achieve and perform and to be a really, really good mom, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, all the time. Like it was suffocating this weight I felt as a mom. And as I walk through these practices and as I really take on a biblical perspective that we have a God of love and grace who has all things in his hand, he is completely sovereign, he is in charge. Becky Harling (24:12.273) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (24:27.178) That means that even when I make mistakes, it's not like I trump God's ability to work things out for good, that He's in charge. When I talk about the practice of relinquishment, I don't have to be in control of everything all the time. I don't have to be in control of everything all the time. In fact, if God is who He says He is and He is, then I can... Becky Harling (24:35.815) Mm-hmm. Becky Harling (24:45.305) Say that again, Michelle. Michele Cushatt (24:57.102) open my hand, I can relinquish these six babies of mine who I worry about and you know I spend many sleepless nights thinking about and I can go, God I trust you. You have been faithful to me, you have helped me when I've made so many mistakes, I have been bullheaded and stubborn and you have still been faithful to me and carried me through and taught me. I can trust that you will do the same for my baby so I can let go. I can relinquish them into your hands. When I do these different practices like perspective and relinquishment and contentment going, no, my family is not perfect and there are lots of things wrong with it, but there is still good here and I can be content with this. When I do these things, that strengthens my face because all of a sudden now it doesn't all rest on my shoulders. Becky Harling (25:25.983) Hmm. Becky Harling (25:40.647) Hmm. Becky Harling (25:49.517) Yeah, yeah. I love that so much because I do think a lot of moms wrestle with control. That seems to be one of the top issues we hear about, you know, because we want to control our kids and hopefully then they turn out like we want them to, whereas God continually invites us to relinquish control, right? And it's so counter to our human nature. Michele Cushatt (25:59.117) Yes. Michele Cushatt (26:12.192) Exactly. Becky Harling (26:16.929) And yet when we relinquish control, that's where the peace is. That's where the calm really is because we realize, okay, God really has this. He will never stop pursuing my child. He will never stop giving wisdom to me as a parent. As long as I lean into him, he will give me what I need to sustain whatever I face. And, and I think that is huge. So how do we, as the Michele Cushatt (26:21.41) Mm-hmm. Becky Harling (26:45.881) body of Christ or as fellow mamas, to use a less, you know, churchy type of a phrase, as fellow mamas, how do we come alongside of each other in tangible ways when life is just frankly very, very hard? Michele Cushatt (26:56.917) Mmm. Michele Cushatt (27:01.578) Yeah, so much of what we've talked about, there's been kind of a theme through everything of us talking about lament, community, to everything else and control. One of the best things that we can do for each other is not try to be God to each other. In other words, not to tell people how to do it better, not giving them advice all the time about how they should be mothering their children, how they should be doing this. There's a time for that, and most people when they want advice, they will ask for it. One of the best things we can do is to have gracious, compassionate companionship with each other as we walk this out, where we just understand that we're all on this journey together, Becky Harling (27:15.99) Mmm. Becky Harling (27:29.113) Yes. Michele Cushatt (27:45.696) messy and it's complicated and we make mistakes and we try and all of this but to approach all of this with love and grace and kindness and just choose to be sisters with each other as we walk this out as moms, right? Like I said, I've been parenting for 30 years and I feel like I know less now than I did when I started. I am... Becky Harling (28:04.665) Yeah. Becky Harling (28:11.937) No kidding. Same here. Michele Cushatt (28:16.522) I am not an expert. I mean, I there are some days I'm like, I just throw out all the parenting books because I have no idea what I'm doing. Like I have no idea. We're doing the best we can, but we all serve a God who loves us, who calls us by name, who has the hairs of our head numbered. And if we can encourage each other to just trust him and to keep our eyes on him. Boy, can you imagine how much more fun we'd have doing this whole parenting thing together without all the pressure to be perfect. Perfect. Becky Harling (28:47.285) Yeah, I agree with you. And I also think sometimes we just need to laugh because sometimes, you know, it's like, you know, you're as a mom. Michele Cushatt (28:52.825) Yes! Becky Harling (28:58.901) You're thinking, oh, I wanted it to go this way. It went completely backwards or upside down or whatever. And sometimes, honestly, you just have to laugh because there are some things I can assure you and Michelle can assure you, you will laugh about in 20 years. Some of the craziest things that my kids did while we were raising them, which at the time I might've thought was horrible, I laugh hysterically over now, you know? Michele Cushatt (29:23.099) I know, right? It's so fun. Becky Harling (29:24.605) And you know, I, yeah, it really is. And it's okay, you know? But I do think as fellow moms, we can do maybe a better job of supporting each other, particularly if we let go of that thing called advice. Because honestly, each of us are having our own struggles at raising our kids. You hardly are an expert enough to tell someone else how to raise theirs, right? So God gives each parent. Michele Cushatt (29:37.15) Mm-hmm. Michele Cushatt (29:42.081) Ugh, yes. Becky Harling (29:54.045) wisdom that they need for the next moment and we can trust him and not lean into all this advice that's out there. So anyway, that's my two cents at the end of this. Michele Cushatt (29:59.127) Yes. Michele Cushatt (30:06.782) I so agree. One of the most compassionate, wonderful things a friend told me one time, I was talking to her and I was feeling so guilty because I didn't like my teenagers. Like have you ever had days where you just don't like them? Like they're just horrible human beings and I'm like, I'm like sitting there going, I can't stand my own children right now. I cannot stand them. And I'm like, I can't say that out loud. What kind of horrible mom would actually say that? Becky Harling (30:22.253) Never. Michele Cushatt (30:35.462) And she looked at me and she goes, oh, there's like a good year or two where I didn't like any of my kids, Michelle. That's just human. That's normal. And it was so freeing for me to hear from another mom. Oh yeah, there was like half of a decade where I didn't like my children. And that's just kind of part of it. And we just laughed and laughed and laughed. Of course we love our kids. So I don't need anybody to write me letters and all of that. But we love our kids. Becky Harling (31:00.781) No, please don't write letters. Michele Cushatt (31:03.798) But if you have a week or a couple years where you just don't really like your children because they're just being heinous human beings, guess what? It happens. It's part of this human experience and our kids go through seasons where they're not very likable. I go through seasons where I'm not very likable. And being able to give each other permission to just feel that and laugh about it, oh, that's one of the most beautiful things ever. Becky Harling (31:32.437) Yeah, I love that so much. So Michelle, we are actually out of time, unfortunately, because this has been so much fun to talk to you, but where can listeners get in touch with you? Michele Cushatt (31:42.77) Absolutely. The easiest place to find me and all of my connection points is at my website at michellecachat.com. You can find links to the book there. You can find links to all my social media accounts there. Anything. I have tons of free resources you can get there as well. I love to resource people. So it's just Michelle with 1L, Cachat with two T's at the end.com and you can get everything you need right there. Becky Harling (32:07.909) Great. And we'll make sure we have that website in the show notes so that people can get in touch with you. Hey, would you just close us out in prayer, Michelle, before I do the outro? Michele Cushatt (32:17.338) I always love to. Absolutely. Father God, thank you so much for your grace and your kindness and your affection and your love for us. We just confess to you that sometimes we think we are better at being in charge of our own lives. So we just take this moment right now, wherever the moms who are listening are, myself here, Becky as well, we just take this moment to open our hands. and to give it all to you. God, you are so much better at being in charge of our lives. You are a good God with a beautiful heart and you do everything out of love and we trust you. And so we give you our children, we give you ourselves and we ask you throughout this whole journey of messy motherhood that you would strengthen our face, of our face, but also our children's face and all the way as we walk out our lives, all the way home in Jesus' name, amen. Becky Harling (33:13.241) Amen. Hey, thanks, Michelle. And hey, friends, thanks again for joining us today on the Connected Mom podcast. And I hope you'll join us again next week where we'll have another conversation that will help you to connect more deeply with God, more empathically with your fellow moms, and more intentionally with your child. So I'm Becky Harling, your host. We're saying goodbye for now. We hope you'll join us again next week.