Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Vanished: The Jami Sue Hagel Sherer Case (Part 2)

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Vanished: The Jami Sue Hagel Sherer Case (Part 2) · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Anyways, I just thought it was funny because it's like,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: here are these dogs and they're saying, like, if they
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: could talk. I know. This is the part of the
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: book where I really felt like, okay, all right, I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: with Anne Rule here on this, because she was talking
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: about if the dogs could talk, they basically would be
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: like the husband did.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: It obviously, you know, dog guys.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, they might as well pointed at Steve and said,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: how told are you against?
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Hi? Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, creepy people. Hello, Hello, We're still.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Waving even though you can't see us.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: That's okay.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I'm still periodically making eye contact with the camera. You
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: don't realize how hard of a habit that is to wreak.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: And until you're trying.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: My camera's not even up and I keep looking over
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: that there's not even a camera.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: She's just, oh, you're like Charlie today, just staring off
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: into the middle distance at nothing.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: That's me. I am an old dog.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: This is PNW Hants and Homicides, where we chat about
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: true crime, the paranormal and sometimes old dogs and crumpets
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: and orange marmalade and elderflower.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Right is it?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Elderflower ulderflower. For a second, I was like, shit, is
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: it elderberry?
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Either way, we are in the Pacific Northwest, which is
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: the PNWF nasty flower because it has petals.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, elderflower, olderflower. Enchant your palette with delicate elderflower
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: noes beautifully balanced, vibrant flavors of ripe pineapple and juicy pomegranate.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: But just flavors of not actual pineapple, so you're not
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: gonna die.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: The crisp a vessels adds a refreshing lift, making each
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: sip a bright and lively celebration of fruit and bloom.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I'm Caitlin's birthday.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: This is NPR Happy Birthday, Caitlyn.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: It is in fact her actual birthday to day as
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: we record it is and we're finally together. If you
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: didn't hear us, you know, I woke up and I
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: was like, what time is it? What day is it?
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: And where should I be right now? Because I was
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: a little bit afraid that I was supposed to be
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: at work.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: It's weird. It's weird to have a day off in
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: the middle of the week when you're not used to it. Yeah,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: it was nice though.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Chris made me eggs eggs eggs because here's the thing,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: as I can scramble an egg like nobody's business, but
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: eggs sunny side up, that's all him. Take some skills,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: but they taste better when somebody makes them for you.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: And it's your birthday. Yeah, yeah. Does your tea taste
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: better when someone brings it to you? Yeah? I know.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: We were talking about how you can only use your
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Starbucks drink like for your birthday on your birthday?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, you only on your actual birthday?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because last year I missed it.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Really yeah, oh you're well, you're gonna have to get
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: another one today.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I know. That's what Chris was saying. He's like, well,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: obviously we have to go and hit up Starbucks on
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the way to something like.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: That's funny.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: I guess I didn't realize that you had to use
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: it on your birthday because I could.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: You go all the time.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just like, it's my birthday one. It's like, yeah, okay,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: here we go. But yeah, I know, okay. I was
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: gonna say one other thing.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: We are camera lists today because we just we got
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: shit to and we didn't feel like getting ready and
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: we needed to be fast.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Well, and you have to take your camera with you today,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: So it's it's a whole. It's also a production to
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: take all of this equipment apart.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I'm shooting a wedding soon. But I wore a themed
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: ash shirt today. I wore my Twilight shirt with Bella
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: and Edward on it. Do you know why not?
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: No long theme for I'm very curious. It's part two
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: of this, the toxicity. Oh okay, I kind of I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: figured that must be where you were going with this,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: but I was like, I'm gonna let.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Her finish the toxic relationship.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's fair.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah. I could see Edward calling Bella every fifteen
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: minutes to see where she's at.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: God, can you imagine? Jeez, God, not for me, it's
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: just too much.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I can't, simply can't.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I just watch had Twilight marathon. Very lazy, lazy, like
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: said my birthday celebration. I was like, I don't feel
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: like doing shit. We're just gonna literally watch all five
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: movies in one night.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's so much. That was great. Yeah,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I love torturing my friends. I should have made you
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: come over.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: It's your birthday, so that's what you do. But I
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: was sick on my birthday. I know you.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to infect you.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: You were already surrounded by the Petri dish that got
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: to you. So yes, yeah, so we just laid in
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: a Petri dish and watched. Well, should we talk about
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: the actual serious, toxic relationship that we are, right?
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: I need to hear the.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Rest of the story. Yes you do, yep. So before
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: we get into part two, I'm just going to give
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: everyone a super short recap of part one. It's not
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: an excuse to not listen to part one because this
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: is not going to cover everything.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: So if you.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Haven't done, if you didn't listen to that one first,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: you go go to listen to that.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it won't even be close. I can tell you
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Yep. By the end of September nineteen ninety, twenty six
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: year old Jamie Sue Heigelsher, a Microsoft employee and loving
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: mother from Redmond, Washington, has gone missing. Those closest to
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: her said she had resolved to leave her abusive and
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: controlling husband, Steve Scher, after years of escalating threats, manipulation,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: and violence. After telling her mother she was ending the
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: marriage and meeting Steve to collect her belongings and her purse.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Jamie vanished. Her Mazda RX seven was later found abandoned
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: near a church with her Duffel bag inside. Despite extensive searches,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Steve showed little interest in locating his missing wife, attempting
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: suicide days later before quickly retaining a prominent criminal defense attorney.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: No notes, Just that's how you'd do that, yeah. Her parents,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Jerry and Judy Heigel, were granted custody of her young son, Chris.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: With no sign of Jamie for nearly seven years, she
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: was sadly legally declared dead. Judy's forceful, earnest desire for
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: answers prompted investigators to revisit the case and examine long
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: standing suspicions surrounding Steve. Say that seven times fast, suspicious?
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Steve?
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, long standing suspicions surrounding Steve Yeah, who wrote that?
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: You said it good? The first time? I know I did.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Both Jamie's loved ones and law enforcement believed that there
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: were a number of details, both new and old, that
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: seemed suspicious and were perhaps worth a second look. Like
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: in early October, just days after Jamie disappeared, Judy recalled
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Steve suddenly becoming preoccupied with the I'm gonna call it
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: cosmetic maintenance of his vehicle. She couldn't help but wonder
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: why a man with a missing wife would be so
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: concerned about getting his car detailed.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I could think of a couple of reasons why.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Ugh. She overheard him making a
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: call about it, and Steve provided a lame excuse that
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: didn't pass the sniff test with Judy. He basically was like, oh,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: my car smells real bad. And she was like, I
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: was literally just in your car, and I don't believe you,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: and you're a piece of shit.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: And he was like, man, I'm a man's do it
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: our wall.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not wrong. While we're on the topics of
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: sniffing and cars, let's revisit the scent dogs that law
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: enforcement had engaged in the search for Jamie. You see,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: when they took some of Jamie's clothes in a laundry hamper,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: there was at least one pair of pants belonging to
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Steve in the mix. The scent dogs were showing disinterest
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: in Jamie's scent when it came to her car, but
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: it's believed that when they tracked a scent to a
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: bus stop on I five before suddenly stopping. This was
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: a telltale sign that what they were tracking was indeed
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Steve's scent.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, tilted in my head like a dog when
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: you were saying all that, and I was like, so
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: does that mean she wasn't in her car? If they
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: like were losing interest.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Or smart cookies, not just a hat.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Breath this one. But they were also smelling him too.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Right because their closer Well here, I'll just tell you, okay,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: the theory being that Steve had left Jamie's masta there
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: at the church before boarding a bus or getting another ride.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: This also clicked into place seeing as the last driver
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: of her car had clearly been taller than her, but
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: not significantly so only.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Six and Cha said he was five six five seven.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know why you thought, you know, I just
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: listened to the episode, you guys, damn it.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, basically what that indicates is if they're
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: not alerting for Jamie sent in connection with her car,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: but they are like tracking a sad and the assumption
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: is that they're they're picking up his scent, and they're like, well, obviously,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: if they're not tracking Jamie's scent or they're not indicating
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: that they're you know, finding her in relation.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: To the car.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: It's because she's not the person that left her car there, Yeah,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: which is really important just because it kind of clarifies that, no,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: she didn't just decide to go missing, right. I mean,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: this is you know, not that that was necessarily something
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: that law enforcement was you know, pushing. It seems like
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: they took the family seriously, you know, pretty much right
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: out the gate.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: But they made proof and this is like proof that
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: someone else at least was involved exactly something.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: And they and they need that so that it's giving
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: them more to go on, giving them another avenue to explore.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: And I feel like to some degree, you kind of
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: have to be open to really almost any theory as
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: much as like the family would be you know saying
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: in a lot of missing persons cases, like they would
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: never do this, you know, they didn't just abandon their life.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Law enforcement has to consider that a possibility, I think
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: until kind of proven otherwise.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: She never really know what's in someone else's head. As
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: much as you think you know somebody exactly, you really
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: don't know, right, No.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean even people that think they know
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: each other very well. Obviously are surprised by the things
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: that people do. So anyways, I just thought it was
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: funny because it's like, here are these dogs and they're saying, like,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: if they could talk. I know. This is the part
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: of the book where I really felt like, Okay, all right,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I'm with Anne Rule here on this, because she was
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: talking about if the dogs could talk, they basically would
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: be like the husband did it obviously, you know, guys,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, they might as well pointed at Steve and said,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: how told.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Are you against give Steve.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: It's funny too that he will whoever left the car
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: they're didn't think to like pull the seat forward or
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: they never do. Yeah, not a details, guy. Still, neither
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: of these details was going to be the basis of
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: their case against Steve. It was something, but not quite enough.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: It's like, okay, yeah, the seat is positioned for somebody
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: about his height. You know, they're picking up you know,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: it seems like.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Probably his send.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: But it's it's very like it's not not evidence, maybe,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: but it's very it's tenuous, it's circumstantial. Yeah, so they
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: needed more a lot more.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: As it turns out, Steve was as generous a guy
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: as he was, fall little because he was going to
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: help them.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I was like, he was being generous.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think it was unintentional, but yeah.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant James Taylor had given Steve his business card at
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: some point amidst the investigation being revitalized, and was surprised
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: to learn that he'd kept it. Apparently, Steve was none
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: too pleased about how the investigation was progressing, which he
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: voiced in no uncertain terms to the lieutenant.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: H weird. I wonder why he wasn't a fan of it.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: I know, so weird.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Steve had clearly been able to buy, charm or bully
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: his way out of any number of situations in his
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: life up to this point. His first call to Taylor
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: went like this, Hey, Lieutenant dickhead, now that I'm out,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: why don't you come fuck with me now, you piece
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: of shit? And he hung up. Oh wow, okay, yeah,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: very mature, right, Yeah, I mean we've established that he
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: is a he's a real big man, angry like five
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: year old girl decapitating dollheads.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: So yeah.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: This was followed up by another call from Steve because
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously we know he likes to make multiple calls.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Is your refrigerator running?
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I just I honestly, I thought about the stupid like
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: prank calls and stuff that people make, and this feels
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: so much stupider than that, Like it's it's real, they're
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: not jokes, but it's so dumb, Like stay stupid, dude.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, So his next call, he said, I want
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: you to stop messing with me. If you don't have
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the investigators back off, I'm going to go out and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: cut someone's fucking throat.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Dude, Like, how how do you think that's gonna help
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: your situation?
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna call a
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: cop and threaten someone's life.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: That can't be illegal.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: That won't be a problem. Lovely. As those conversations were,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Steve wasn't quite done, because of course he's not Steve.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Sussy Steve.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: He called Marilyn Brenneman, one of the prosecutors working with
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: law enforcement on the case at the time. She wasn't
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: in her office, so he left her a voicemail evidence
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: evidence exhibit A, your honor A for us. This is
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Steve Shearer, identifying himself by first and last name.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Do you spell it out?
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Not social Security is data birth. I'm out now and
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I want to talk to you. You better call me back.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: I want what's mine. I want my wife's car back,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I want her ring back, I want it all back.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to go away. You better not fuck
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: with me. It's my turn to fuck with you. You'd
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: better call me back. There was a short pause, and
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: then he said, have a good life.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Have a good life. But you want her to call
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: you back, so you'll you'll talk. Also, is he wanting
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: the ring back that he reported missing?
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Listen, I think the jig was already up with the ring.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: It doesn't look like they ever actually like face any
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: consequences for that.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: But but he's just like fully like admitting that.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: The I mean, she's definitely at a certain point, like
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: she got a replacement ring, so okay, okay, okay, but
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: it I mean, spoiler alert, it was the original ring.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, so but still, oh my god, that would be
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: so funny if I know that's.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: How they get him for the for the insurance broad
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: and we're slapping this on too, I know, wouldn't that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: be nice? Don't worry, they'll have another opportunity. What Steve
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: did there is what those in the biz call a
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: no no you were sometimes a felony. At the time,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Steve had been released from jail just about a month prior.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Hopefully he hadn't gotten too comfortable back at home, because
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: threatening a public official with bodily harm is against the law.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Nice he turns out, was.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: He trying to go back because he's like, I'm out now,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. I was threatening everyone
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: to try to get back in jail. Honestly, I have
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: zero plans this weekend, and I really don't feel like cooking.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: These angry outbursts would lead to his arrest on June
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: twenty third, nineteen ninety one. When he went.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Before a judge.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: His bail was set at thirty thousand dollars, and for once,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: he apparently didn't have the means to at least buy
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: his way out of a problem in the short term.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Mommy didn't help well.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: At that point, he was actually out on bail already
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: for traffic offenses from another jurisdiction.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Oh my lord.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Eventually, his family came through with bail money, and Steve
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: moved in with his mother to her Mill Creek homb
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: How you're already out on bail, sir sor oh.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: My god, like and then to have your mom have
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: to come up with all this bail money like again seriously,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: like more bail money?
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah for this fucking kid, this guy, wow, this begging gay.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: By early nineteen ninety two, the team was ready to
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: arrest Steve, but he did not show up for his
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: appointment with his probation officer, which is not funny. The
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: don't do that. That's how you get arrested. But the
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: authorities monitored the area around Steve's mother's home in Mill Creek.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: All police agencies were asked to have their personnel watch
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: for him. In the meantime, the FBI sat on his
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: mother's house and when one of Steve's dumbass friends stop
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: by for a visit, they literally just stormed the door
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: as Steve opened it.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: To his pal.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: And you know also along with some other uninvited guests.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Did they have a warrant?
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing is, like, he wouldn't have answered
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: the door if he thought it was law enforcement. Right,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: of course, Steve was arrested without any major incident. It
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: had been just over nine years since his wife Jamie
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: had disappeared, and Steve was finally in custody. It wasn't
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the finish line, but certainly a huge wave of relief
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: for those closest to the case. His bail was set
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: at a million dollars, all but ensuring that he would
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: remain in custody throughout the duration of the proceedings.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Snap, Mama's not dropping a mill.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: That's like, you have to put your house up for
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: collateral in a situation like that. Shit probably put his
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: house up, right, Well, where'd that house go? I don't know.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I would assume that, you know, there's right of survivorship
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: for that, so I would assume that, you know, probably
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: that came into his possession. Realistically, they were married, bought
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the house together.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Not that I want him to get out.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: No, no, But I do wonder about that because that
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: was one thing where I didn't really see a ton
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: where it was talked about, like what ended up happening
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to their family home. I do find.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Those pieces are It's interesting. I wonder if, like the
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: mom sold it for the bail money. Maybe.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: After a search warrant was executed on Sherry Steve's mother's
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: home in mid April, there were some items that had
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: been listed within the warrant that had not been recovered,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and Steve's trial was set for May. In general, I
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: don't think it's nice to be little people that may
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: be lacking in terms of intelligence. It's not the kind
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: thing to do. But it is the thing that I
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: am about to do, and I don't feel.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Bad about it. Well, some people deserve it. Yeah.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Steve's mother, Sherry, did eventually locate them and told his attorney,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Pete Mayer that she didn't really want to turn them
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: over to law enforcement.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: They're on the warrant.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so he informed her that as an officer
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: of the court, it was literally his duty to do
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: just that, like he's defense counsel. But he's still bound
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: by the law.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Why would she even tell him? I found these but
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I think I want to give them to you? So
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I what?
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Once again, I say, I don't feel good about making
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: fun of people's intellectual deficits on the whole. But wasn't
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: the smart move here?
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: No, I mean I'd rather hurt.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: It worked out for the best. It worked out for
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the best. And here's the thing is I get loving
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: your kids no matter what. But Sherry, girl, this is
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: a homicide case, like love him from jail. Maybe that's
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: where he belongs.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Maybe like that was kind of her like reasoning, or
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe it was like subconscious where it's like, I
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: don't want to give these up because it's my son,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: but I know like.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: That I should. He was gonna give it to the
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: lawyer because she knows that he has to. I don't know.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's hard to say, because I feel
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: that was the thought that I had. But given how
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: much it seems like she had enabled him, you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: all like all throughout his life leading up to this,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: it kind of seemed more like, I don't really want
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: to turn these over because it probably wouldn't be good.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: And the lawyer's like, well, then you're done fucked up,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Miguel AnyWho. I'm not sure that it's ever been confirmed
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: so far as I'm aware, whether Sherry knew exactly what
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: she had just given the authority.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: It was just a suitcase. Uh oh.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: But if I were a betting man, I'd say, maybe
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: she took a peek. I don't know, Maybe she's not
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: that kind of mom.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: How could you not take a piece?
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: How could you not and you know it's specifically listed
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: in the warrant. The content of Steve's blue suitcase were
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: varied various black lingerie that had belonged to Jamie. Those
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: items had one thing in common with a good many
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: of the others. Most of them had belonged to Jamie.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: There were her night shirts with QT frases like supermom,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: the couple's matching bowling shirts, even a key to her masta,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: which is really important because oh, you had a key
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: to her car, did you? I wonder when you used.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: That last Yeah?
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Really, you've got her car key in this suitcase that
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: it seems like y'all are trying to keep from LAO enforcement.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: So it seemed to lend credence to the long standing
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: theory about Steve being the one to abandon Jamie's vehicle
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: following her disappearance. There were a number of additional items
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: that were very obviously of sentimental value, like their wedding
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: album and some yearbooks. Strangely, though, Steve had also been
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: carrying around her irs, receipts and credit card bells. Why,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, she was the one that always handled their finances. Yeah,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: and it sounds like he may have been up to
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: some financial fuckery in the background thereafter.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Honestly, it's basically just like this is her suitcase, This
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: is like all her stuff. Yeah, it's like an even
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: creepier than usual. It's like a deranged shrine to go minikit.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting too to have like financial paper works
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: because it's like, well, obviously, well he.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Has her signature on it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Right, and like it makes me think, you know, this
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: person isn't coming back and you're gonna need these things.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: It's like creepy, yes, exactly.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: I think there's so many reasons why. It's like wow,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: night right, and to have all these clothes and stuff
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of hers and m hmmm. After waiting so many years
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: to try to get justice for Jamie and her loved ones,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: law enforcement and the prosecution were determined they would be
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: leaving nothing to chance. Steve had been monitored as closely
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and for as long as was feasible throughout the renewed investigation.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: We're talking like over a year, I believe, I think,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: like fourteen months trying to firm up their case however possible,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: because honestly, it just seems like if you just watch
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and wait, he'll do something to fuck this up. And
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: that was kind of the the presiding theory there, I
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: mean good theory. Yeah, I mean it really worked out
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: for him. The prosecution team, Marilyn and Phil Brenneman, even
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: reached out to a prosecutor in Marion County, Oregon, Diane
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Middle and lead detective Alan Sharn for tips in a
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: no body case.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: No body, no crime. I was going to say nobody
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: very much a crime. I was trying to think of
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: a better word for very much. But did you notice
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: the detective's name? I was going to say, were they wait?
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Say Allan? Yeah, I don't know if that's how you
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: pronounce it, scarn it like Michael Scarn, Yes, yes, AnyWho.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: You have to find the levity where you can. As
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: soon as I saw that name, I was like, I
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: literally pictured Jim's goldface.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Are we going to do the scar?
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: The Oregon duo had successfully investigated and built a case
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: for the prosecution of a double murder where the victims'
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: bodies had never been recovered, So I, I mean, they're
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: leaning into colleagues that have already kind of been down
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: this road. They were really tapping into the resources that
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: they had available to them, and I feel like it's
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean to me, it just seems
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: it's important because we hear so many times about whether
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: it's police, prosecutors, whatever, where it's just like it's arguing
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: over jurisdiction and dick measuring and that's why shit doesn't
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: get done. And in this case, it's like such the opposite.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: So that's good because that's got to be so fucking hard.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, with nobody, I mean that it's difficult.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think at this point, because this is
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: we're literally heading into you know, the year two thousand
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: as he's headed to trial, now that doesn't seem like
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: as impossible. Like it's happened. It's not an unknown anymore.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Back then it very much was like.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's tough.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, technologies come a long way, and it's still hard.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: It is, it is.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: It's still hard not to say that it's you know,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: not hard in a no Body case today, but I
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: feel like at least now there's something like a roadmap
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: for it.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they paved the way exactly.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Though Steve's trial was set to commence in mid April
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: two thousand, jury selection wasn't complete until May third. Now,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to totally brush over the trial completely
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: where they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Steve super
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: duper did it.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: But this next bit.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Alone, I feel like could convince a lot of people that,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: you know, if you harbored any doubts about his guilt,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: because I haven't necessarily drilled down into everything all of
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: the evidence that they brought against him.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: Also, it's probably make you.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Really fucking angry.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Great, Yeah, okay.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Steve told so many stories to people over the years
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: about the circumstances surrounding.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: His father's death, as well as.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: His wife Jamie, including that she had been the final
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: victim of the Green River Killer.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: What why? Threat to jail? What a fucking weirdo?
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Do not go Pasco? Do not collect two hundred dollars?
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Green River Killer? Did it? Like, bro, do you.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Think that's something that like people can't verify? I mean,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: the prevalence of the internet was different, but like, come on, yeah,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: it just gives me so much ick.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Did they know who he was back then? By two thousand?
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: I believe so, Okay, I can remember. Let's see.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, now I'm wondering.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: That's interesting because like, was he trying to blame it
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: on someone who wasn't caught yet.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Because that is actually it's a good point just because
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: like if he hadn't been caught yet, that does change
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: the dynamic. Let's see, he was arrested in like near
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: the end of two thousand and one, so actually, yeah,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: that does interesting.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: And when did he say this in two thousand or
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: was it well prior to two thousand.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean honestly, either way, it's like at some point,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: like there's like blaming it on a famous like all
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: of those victims, they were like pretty highly publicized. So
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: to say that your wife was killed by the Green
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: River kill it's so gross.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: And he's like the last victim, Like how do you
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: know that? Yeah, I mean that's weird. Yeah, maybe he
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: just meant like, well, he's still like, how would you
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: ever be just so dumb?
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: He had okay it Actually, in a way, I think
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: it does make it worse because he hadn't been caught. Yeah,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, and maybe when he said the last victim,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: maybe he just meant his lot like latest victim.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: But how would you know that too? No, you can't.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: You you obviously made this up.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it from that little tiny detail that you gave
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: too many details bro too many details. Just don't like,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: just don't do any of this, you know what I mean?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Just like, don't Bundy did it? Bundy was dead at
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: this point, wasn't he? I mean, does that matter to him?
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Blame man?
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Honestly that's a good point.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Well he's stole alive and he did it. Yeah.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: No, Bundy was executed when I was like six months old, right,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: not even January of nineteen eighty nine. Yeah, the seventies. Well, no,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: he didn't kill crime. I was like, what killed you
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: think I was born?
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Hey, I mean I know the bag I got you
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: this this happy birthday, you old fuck you bauch. But
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: I wrote a nice note on it. It's true, is it? What?
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: It say? Something about how I'm obviously twenty eight? Yeah? Yeah,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: just kidding love it. One woman all refer to her
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: as Sally. Honestly, she's been through enough. I feel like
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: she doesn't probably need her name out there anymore than.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: It has to be.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's what I would imagine. I feel like at
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: certain points in the story, there are certain people that
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: we don't necessarily get their full names, and then there
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: are some people that we do. And there are some
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: people that that changes over time over time because people
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: are more willing to come forward and share their story
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: and like have it linked to themselves when they think
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Steve is going to be going behind bars?
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Okay, I just was like listen, Sally was already in
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: a rough spot and then this She lived with the
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: couple for a short time, trying to escape her own
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: scary living situation before they returned to Washington State from California.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Was this the same one you talked about in the
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: last episode, Yes, that witness the yep, exactly Okay, So
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: she became a pretty critical witness for the prosecution detailing
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: the events near the end of nineteen eighty six. You
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: may recall that one time Steve casually threatened to kill
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: both her and Jamie and ultimately stabbed himself.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Right, yes, you're yeah, that's so weird.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: It is, though unfortunately his wounds obviously did not prove fatal.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Damn it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: He wins on you loose them. Still, there were other
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: witnesses like Christopher Moon who I will name, who had
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: been called to the stand by the defense. He swore
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: he'd seen Jamie in a card room just days after
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: her supposed disappearance. To those that knew her well, this
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: seemed improbable, as she'd hated card rooms and they knew
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: she would never leave her son or let her family
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: wonder about her fate. She didn't like going to card
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: rooms in the first place. So it's a card room.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: It's basically like gambling. Yes, yes, and casino.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to say, like a kind of yes.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: And I wasn't familiar with the term. But in the
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: state of Washington, and there may be other states that
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: did or have done this, they can get a special
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: license at certain types of restaurants and other businesses where
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: they can have a card room. But all you can
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: do is play cards. They can't have slot machines or
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: like any of that other stuff. Okay, so like a
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: casino but different.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Got it.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: It's like more than just like a friendly game of
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: poker with your friends, but not a casino scale either.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, if you really did think you saw Jamie,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: she wouldn't have been there by herself. Like that seems
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: like the type of thing that Steve would have fucking
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: dragged her along to, you know what I mean? There
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: was like this whole long story about how, oh yeah,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Jamie looked like this girl that I knew for you know,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: a long time, and that's why I recognized her right away.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Too many fucking details, dude.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Honestly, it's like, okay, guy, or or or or do
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: you think that just all women look the same. It
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: is that a possibility.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: She had titties, man, and she reminded me of this
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: other girl I knew who had titties too. She also
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: had hair I don't even know. I didn't really see
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: passive titties.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: She was a small woman with louge breasts and hair. God, seriously,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe he's not garbage. It just seemed
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: kind of garbage. Another local businessman said Steve had asked
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: him to put up a missing person's poster for Jamie
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: in his shop, though this was roughly six months after
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: her disappearance, according to his recollection of the dates, which
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: is like, okay, guys, listen, that's you gotta call who
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: you can call to try to be like a character
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: witness or you know, break down the prosecution's case. But
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: like posting the flyers six months later, it's kind of
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: too little, too late. In the end, a jury made
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: up of eight women and four men would be the
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: ones to decide Steve's fate.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: I like that eight women majority europe majority rules.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: You know. And what was interesting about this. I haven't
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: thought about this in connection to a lot of the
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: cases that I've talked about, but in Ann Roll's books specifically,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: like she talked about how they had already done jury selection,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: but then when it came time for them to actually deliberate,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: they had a pool.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: So they actually.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Already had like alternate jurors that were kind of built in,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: so there were people that came and were part of
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: the jury for the like for the trial, they sat
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: through all of the trial and then didn't get their
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: name called to be a part of the verdict. I
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: would be pissed, can you imagine. But here's the thing.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: It also protects them in the case of a situation
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: like you know, a potential mistrial or something like that.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they hold them until like the
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: verdict comes in.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Hm. I just heard of that. I had no idea
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: that was the thing.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: For some cases, they will do that, and it depends
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: on the jurisdiction. I haven't come across a case where
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: they have done it that way, of.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Course, it's this one with all this other weird shit.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Oh dude, you have no idea, You really have no idea.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: It tell me it's gonna get weirder and just so
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: dumb for real. On Thursday, June eighth, the jury four
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: person indicated that they had reached a verdict. There were
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: two counts, first degree premeditated murder and second degree felony murder.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: When the verdict was read, Steve Schuer was found guilty
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: on both counts. Completely indignant, Steve yelled, how do you
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: go to prison for something you didn't do? When Jamie
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: comes back, you can all rotten hell.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Ten years later? Whatever the fuck m hm.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Though he did make an impassioned plea, Steve was far
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: more composed when he went before the judge on July
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: twenty second for sentencing. The judge sentenced Steve to sixty
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: years in prison for Jamie's murder. Fuck. Yeah, you might
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: think that once the man nearly everyone believed killed our
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: victim was sentenced, that would be the end of the story.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: And in a lot of other cases you would be right.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Of course, there are some things that are predictable, like appeals, right,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, especially if there's the death penalty involved. But
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: it turns out, even behind bars, Steve wasn't quite ready
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: to give up his reign of terror. In two thousand
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: and two, law enforcement was made aware by a young
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: man who had only recently been released that he knew
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: of a currently incarcerated prisoner plotting against his victims family.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, dude.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Steve had enlisted a former cellmate to burn the Higel
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: family home down. Oh my god, and send him proof
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: of the job. His cellmate was due to be released
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: in a short time, but thankfully the authorities had been
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: made aware with time to act. Not to be outdone,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: the King County Sheriff's Office and the Bellevue Fire Department said,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: hold my beer, I got a stage of house fire.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, what this is crazy. I'm losing my mind
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: over here, guys. My mouth is wide open. I can't
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: stop touching my headphone. But here's the thing.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: They They were like, we have to stage it, and
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: it's got to be like it's not okay if mine's
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: not movie quality. It had to be convincing. But they
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: weren't about to burn down the Higel family home. Thankfully,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Why didn't need to be convinced.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Hagel family home.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: I keep saying Heigel, and there's no eye.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: It's Hagel. Sorry, Hegels.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I know, I'm so sorry. Once a satisfactory amount of
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: smoke was generated, they just blanketed the structure in terms, who.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Did they need to convince? Okay, it's coming.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Honestly, just staging the fire would have been enough, but
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: they decided to go a step further to ensure that
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: their plan went off without a hitch, because who are
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: they staging it for? Right? How is he gonna if
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: somebody sees smoke, Like, what are they gonna do? Be like, oh,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: the fire didn't completely Like how would he know? He's
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: in jail, but he would know they're gonna know how
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: would he know? They notified the East Side Journal in
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: advance so the newspaper wouldn't blow their because they were
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: worried that like a newspaper would catch wind and like
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: even if they, like if they just reported the actual
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: true details like oh the house didn't burn completely down
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: or whatever. Okay, they were like, no, we got to
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: sell this shit. The editorial staff discussed whether they should
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: play along, and, in true well trained journalistic fashion, asked
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: plenty of questions of the investigators in the end. Also,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: thankfully they decided to do it, because you kind of
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: have to be asked wholes not to. Their story said
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: the house might have been targeted, but investigators would not
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: give further details. So they literally not only did they
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: not blow the cover with a story, they agreed to
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: write a story how the authorities wanted it.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, couldn't they just have written the story without the
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: whole show actual fire.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I guess they didn't want word getting back to him
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: from somebody on the outside.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Just like I know, I know is gonna know that,
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: You're he needs to know that.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing. Look, friends, family of his Okay,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: I know Chris had a lot of the same follow
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: up questions and frustrations.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I think they were just bored and they just really
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: wanted to do this fun.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I think he pissed off enough of the right the
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: wrong people. King County Police made sure the story was
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: mailed to Sharer, who they said was very happy with
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: the details in it. His satisfaction would be short lived, however,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: and this is where it gets dark again. I hope
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: you enjoyed what little levity there was in that Steve
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: had told his would be accomplice that he could take
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: seventeen thousand dollars worth of very jewelry from his mother's
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: homeless payment. The most chilling part remember, Stephen Jamie's son
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: was being raised by her parents in that home.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Oh Jesus Christ.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: According to court documents, Steve said he wanted the homes
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: occupants killed, but he didn't mention either of the Hagels
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: or his son specifically. I feel like you kind of
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: have to assume or at least strongly consider the prospect
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: that he was at least reluctantly resigned to the idea
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: that his own child might be.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Killed in the house fire. Yeah, he just didn't want.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: To say it because he's a fucking pussy, right and
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: for what for what? Seriously, like you're you're in jail, dude.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: There were some other things that went on behind the scenes,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: nothing that rose to the level of like whoa as this,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: But there were a lot of other threats and there
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: were other plots that he was trying to enact as well,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: like against the prosecutors Jesus who he had already threatened
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: and he had gotten in trouble for that God to
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: have the confidence of just a really mediocre white man.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Thank goodness, like someone else knew and like told on
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: him stitches like, but I'm out now, booch, Wow, are
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: you done? That's it? Still in jail?
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he super is. I think he's still plotting and planning.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: But that bitch, it's solitary. I know, honestly, no contact
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: was made for him.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: It's not God. If you're going to be trying to
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: hurt people from the outside, like with your roommates, can
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: sell me up, Like what did they do to you?
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: You're going to kill her.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Entire family, including your own goddamn child, and you're Innocentce
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: what exactly?
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Because he's innocent.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm just gonna I didn't I didn't kill
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: my wife, but now I am going.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: To kill everybody else.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, makes total sense.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Well, ship, dude, I never found her. Yeah, to my knowledge,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: it's still possible. Like I don't want to say there's
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: like hope for that.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: But even dating back to when the book was written
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: quite a few years ago, because it was prior to
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: the whole plot with the burning down the house, so
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: prior to two thousand and two, damn. One of the
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: things that was discussed kind of at length, and these
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: were the parts that I kind of had to skip
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: over because they give me the hebes and the jeebs
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: as they talked about conditions of the types of soil
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: and vegetation and animal life and different things that would
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: depending on where and how her body was disposed. The
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: likeliness of her remains ever being found or identified, it's
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: very slim. It's not impossible, and I do I hope
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: that for them, I feel like Jesus Christ, especially after
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: still trying to kill them from prison.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, Jesus Christ, dude, I.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Don't know, I honestly what though, for what thet you
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: way enough? The only thing that's gonna happen is you're
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: gonna make this worse and finally convince the State of
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Washington to give you the fucking needle.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: They won't now, But I can't imagine too having to
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: live the rest of his life in prison, but like them,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: knowing that it's a possibility that he could still be
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: plotting things.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: And it's just so dumb because now, if somebody were
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: doing this from behind bars and they were already essentially
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: serving life, he'd be close to one hundred years old
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: by the time he could be eligible for release at
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: this point. But at that point, Washington State was still
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say actively, but they they were still allowed
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: to execute people like that was still something they were doing.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: It's just so dumb. I could see why, like without
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: a body and all of like, I don't know, Well,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, if you keep stacking on more crimes
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: on top of that, like do if you kill the
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: victim's parents and the child that the two of you shared,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: I could see the state deciding, you know what, we're
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: done here, We're done here. Clearly putting him behind bars
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: has not has not kept the public safe, and at
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: that point, god damn. I mean, I've got a lot
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: of complicated feelings about the death penalty, but Jesus, pretty
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: clear cut at that point. What a fucker, I know,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: just trash And I really hate that he spells it wrong,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: but his last name, jeez, I know, I don't want
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: to mention it because I didn't know if he wanted
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: to say anything or not. Yeah, it's not spelled right,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: But idiot. You know how I said I don't like
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: to make fun of people for their lack of intellect, Well,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: I think it really is genetic because they've been spelling
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: their name wrong for a long time. Whatever, just fucking
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: awful though, just and I don't know, I feel like
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: I have there's certain people in this case. Obviously it's
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: hard not to get emotionally involved to a certain degree
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: as you're reading these stories, but probably some people that
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: I've assumed, you know, intent for them that may or
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: may not have existed. So hopefully I didn't say anything that,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: so you know what I mean, Like, I don't want
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: you know if I feel like Steve's mom is one
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: where I'm like, I question your motives, but I feel.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Like you're pretty good at explaining why.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And again you know, it's just my thoughts,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: my feelings, my opinion.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: But I try to be like neutral too and not
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: just be like she hat I hate him do.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: I try to be like, okay, the reason Listenly's saying.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: And like absorb it. So make your own opinion about it. Yeah,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: you have to. I try. I try, you guys, Okay,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: well should we do some terror?
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: Let's do some terror terror because we did we missed
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: it the last for part one. I know, okay, well,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: and I think I have a tiny dog that is
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: wants or needs something.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: I think you also have a co host who needs
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: to peace. I know we can take a little breakkeep break.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: We're gonna get a little break, okay.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, So we decided we are still doing the tarot video,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: just of the altar and us like drawing the card
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: for Patreon. So I mean, I'm sure it'll be posted
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: maybe on like socials and whatever. But okay, so I'm
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: gonna do one more good shuffle and then I'm gonna
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: do a thing.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we're gonna focus all our energy on Jamie.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: So then since there's not really room to spread out
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: the cards and draw one, I'm gonna go over to
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: the altar and I'm gonna shuffle flu move the cards around,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: okay until you tell me to stop, and then we're
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: just gonna pick what's on top. Oh so we're not
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: gonna feel it, but you're gonna feel my shuffling. Okay, okay, okay,
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: but I'm gonna do it on cameras so they I
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: have something to look at. I think this one, this one, yeah, I.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Think so, I think so I hope. So we got
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: the page of Pentacles in reverse, and I was saying
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I was excited because it's something different, but we haven't
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: gotten yet. Yeah, I mean we might have gotten it,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: but not recently.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: The King of Pentacles are keywords wet, page of Pentacles. Sorry,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, how did I wow? I just I
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: just make it as I go.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Page. That's okay, I'm glad I caught you.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Page of Pentacles. Our keywords are study, developing, resources, naivete, curiosity, potential,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: and service. Pages often represent the early stages of a
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: matter or a time of study and gaming skills. Some
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: tarot packs picture the page of Pentacles.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: Holy shit.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Some tarot packs picture the page of Pentacle Jesus Christ.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Tarot packs picture the page of Pentacles as a young
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: person gazing at a pentacle as if trying.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: To understand it.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: If this card represents an actual person, it's probably someone young, intelligent,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: hard working, and ambitious.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: It feels like him like looking at her, yeah, trying
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: to like I don't know if he was trying to
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: like understand her, but he was definitely trying to like
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: change her. Yeah.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting, just the way that it's like gazing
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: upon something like as if an object.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because she was an object. I had a
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: thought to shit, oh shoot, oh okay, so page it
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: made me think of like how you went to the king,
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: and I was like, no, because he's like a page.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: He's like an immature like younger. Yeah, that's interesting.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Little girl who tears off appet dollhoods. How many times
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: am I going to say decapitates dallheads in this? I know,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I mean more than you probably thought.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Ever.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously, when the page of pentacles appears reversed, it
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: can mean you're not taking your training, work or responsibilities
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: seriously enough.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Responsibilities like your.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Family seriously, like any aspect of life really.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Work, wife, kids.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, perhaps you're bored, lazy, or just not up to
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: the task, not up to it like in terms of height.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe literally everything.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Oh I love that we both.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Burn bring it back to that seventies show. We talked
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: about Leo in the last one, and we do the
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: Kelso Burn Burn.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Lack of focus or follow through could cause disappointments. In
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: some cases, the reversed page indicates you're out of touch
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: with practical issues. Health Wise, it can suggest low vitality
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: or depression.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: There's definitely some I'm sure mental health issues happening definitely.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I feel like the depression and low vitality that tracks
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: for me in more than one way. But that makes
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: me think of her too, because yes he could, That's
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: what I was thinking of her vitality else because he
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: was quite literally making her, not making her do cocaine.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: But like, you know, well that.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: There were a lot of things that it's like, sure,
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: we can all make the argument that she's an adult
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: and she can make her own choices and blah blah
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah, but we also know that there are
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: certain things where there may not be a need for
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: a direct ask, like hey, do this or do that.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: It may be that over time this person just starts
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: to influence your behavior in such a way that it's
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: like they never asked me or told me to do
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: this thing, but they've kind of worn you down in
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: one way or another. And I feel like that's really
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: such a big part of this case. Yeah, because it
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: happened in more ways than one. There is an extra excerpt.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: What one does is what counts, and not what one
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: had the intention of doing. Ooh see we have read
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: this recently. I didn't recognize the card not that long ago.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: But yeah, he different days.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: I definitely recognized that saying though, because I brought it
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: up even in another episode.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: It's Pablo Picasso in a reading about money. This card
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: may mean you're undercapitalized or ill equipped to handle a financial.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Matter like buying your own home.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or literally anything because you don't have a.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Job, your mommy and your wife you do it.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: Perhaps you're too idealistic and haven't fully examined the practical.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Aspects of a venture. Oh my god.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Or you may emphasize wealth to the exclusion of other things.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Wow, serious, because it was.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Always about Oh like I come from a wealthy family. Yeah,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, none of that really has anything to
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: do with you, no matter, because you're a piece of shit. Yeah,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: that makes me read the read the part above that again,
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: perhaps you're too idealistic and haven't fully examined the practical
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: aspects of a venture. That reminds me of like if
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: he I mean he was convicted, so like he did
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: it right. We can say that like the car thing,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: like not putting the seat back, like not being prepared
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: having the suitcases.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: All of the Yeah, it's the key in it.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just very haphazard, it's very half ass. If
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: the reading is about your job, the reversed page may
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: show you're reluctant to take a job you feel this
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: beneath you.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Or any job.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or you might be unprepared for the tasks facing you.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: Sometimes this car means turning away from the material world
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: to pursue a spiritual path. Well, I mean, you know
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: you should have done that. Maybe he was because there's
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: ghosts in his blood and he was doing cocaine about it.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's a stretch, Okay.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: In a reading about love, you may seek a partner
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: who provides financial security or takes care of you.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: That's just so creepy.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: The purse or the nurse syndrome that is weird just
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: because the purse was such.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh godn't think about like the symbolism of him
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: like taking her purse too, Like she was basically providing
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: for them, and he in the end when she left
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: him took her purse. Like that's very symbolic too. Yeah, huh.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: The fact that it has the word wow, I love
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: when that happens to us, Okay, last sentence.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Or it may mean you're not holding up your end
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: of a relationship's responsibilities. Feels like the understatement of several.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Decades son, husband, dad, not holding up your end of
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: any of those relationships. Caitlin's put she's knocking it down.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: I'm upset it.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, what.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Dude, Okay, I'm just gonna read the reverse interpretation. I
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: won't do all of the bullet points. But I was
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: drawn to the King of Pentacles, right.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Could you accidentally?
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to read it, it's in reverse. When reversed, the
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: King of Pentacles indicates sluggishness, delays, and or obstacles to
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: material success. Sometimes it shows low energy or insecurity. For sure,
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: you feel stuck but don't have the drive to get
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: out of your rut. If the card represents an actual person,
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: he may be mercenary, course, dull witted, or even corrupt.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: Dull witted, fucking doom. That's funny because you kept saying
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: that too.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: It's like, I feel kind of bad sometimes, like picking
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: on someone for their intellect or lack thereof. But come on, ah, well,
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: I feel a little bit vindicated by that. I feel
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: like I made the right choice in reading that. To
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: be honest, I'm proud of you. Thank you for going
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: with your gut. Oh my gosh, that's so crazy. It's
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: like it's so many like key words.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: We were literally just talking about how when we pulled
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: Taro and I was talking about the train episode.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Right in the train crash and like we had snow
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: on the card and like this just happens, like we
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: were just talking about that.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it. We did it again. I love it.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: Well, should we get you out of here singing? What
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: to your massage? Getting a massage? After listening to all
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: this sad, stressful stuff, you can put this two parter
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: behind you and go relax. I know, I know I
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: will probably just be thinking all about what I want
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: to talk about next.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Please don't do that. Please relax. Everyone send her vibes
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: of relaxation from the future, okay.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: And maybe case recommendations, I don't know, whatever.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: Send no story. Email homicide at gmail dot com or
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: the Facebook group. I know we've had people sending you there.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: There's a Treon. You can chat with us on Patreon.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: There's a group chat, or you can message us directly.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got a few that I've actually started looking at.
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: And you know how this is, It's just like kind
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: of one just sort of grabs you and you go, Okay,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: this is what I'm gonna do for now. Yeah, I'm
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: probably going to come back to all of these other
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: ones that I've been looking at, but it's like the
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: one that like just speaks to you. However, in the moment, Yes,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: I can relate for sure. I had that moment. And
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: then I got really freaked out that the name was
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: so familiar and I know the case, and I was
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: going through our.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Catalog of episodes. You already do it?
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: No, I mean I cannot find where like it. We didn't,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: But I feel like there's part of me that like
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: has this like muscle memory or like imprints of the case.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: You're just remembering doing it in the future.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm having like maybe it's kind of a
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: deja vous thing in a way.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe you heard another podcast.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: About it a while ago, or I almost certainly have.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it was really freaking me out because I
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: was like, I really want to I really I think
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: I want to do this one next. And I was
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: starting to listen to like I don't know, like some
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: like newscast or something that I found like on YouTube
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: or something about it, and I was like, sounds too familiar,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: like or you've even come across like that same thing
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: looking for other things.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it was.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, I have not covered this case. Maybe
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: it's like very similar to something else.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: I wonder if when you read it to me, like
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: I'll be able to pin wait something, or if it
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: feels familiar to me for me, I.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: Think maybe we'll talk off air about it, because I
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: was like, well, Cassie's not going to remember like every case,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: Like if I think I can't remember, why would I
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: think you could remember?
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: But but you could also search for it, and we're
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: so good about putting the names in the show notes
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: that it would it would pop.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Up, I know, and I can't find anything. Like I
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: searched with even like kind of more obscure terms like
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: not even like specific names, and it wasn't coming up.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, I really haven't covered this case.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: But something in me was like I really feel like
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: I've covered this and it was so bizarre, it was
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: so weird. So yeah, maybe it's it's deja vous. I
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: don't know, do you get deja fu?
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to keep saying an all right, all right,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: should we do that thing? Yeah? All right, I have
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: a crap day. See next Tuesday.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Or the Tuesday after whichever my birthday then, so whatever,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: not a special Yeah, it won't be quite the same energy.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: It could be somebody out there's birthday though. I mean
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: it's someone in the world, but it could be a
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: creepy person's birthday listening. So happy birthday. If you're listening
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: into your birthday, it will be friend of the pod
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Stephanie's birthday.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, happy birthday, Stephanie. We're exactly a week apart.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: He's so cute. The same age, yes, twenty eight, yep,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: you got it. Hello, Hello, Okay, then just kidding. It's
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: the elderflower. It is. It does something to you.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Oh and Chris had orange marmalade on his toast this morning. Whoa,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: I know that's like an English like tea time thing,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: right or am I crazy? Thanks?
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Or it's like Southern. I don't know one of the two.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: It's something. It felt fancy.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: I was like, it's either fancy English or fancy Southern.