Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Neil Kleiner

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Cutting Through with Neil Kleiner · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

0:05
In Season 3 of Cutting Through, we're asking the question, how
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do you cut through with humanity in the age of AI?
0:13
Because the first time in history machines are imitating
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us. They're writing like us,
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speaking like us, creating like us.
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And the question suddenly, everywhere is, what does it mean
0:24
to be human when the machines can do the same things we do?
0:28
In this series, we're exploring that question from different
0:31
angles, Not with the usual voices, and not with the same
0:34
predictable panel of experts, but with people who see the
0:37
world differently. Season 3 is supported by
0:41
antiquoted.com, a platform built to challenge the sameness of
0:45
expertise by helping media, podcasts, and events discover
0:48
new voices and new perspectives. Because if we're going to talk
0:52
about the future, we'd probably need a broader set of people
0:55
shaping the conversation. This is cutting through.
1:02
Welcome to cutting through with me, Natasha Ploughman.
1:05
Now, this is a bit of a treat of a episode.
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This time it's because from coming behind the scenes to
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front of the scenes is Neil Kleiner.
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So Neil and I have been working together on all things Cutting
1:16
through since he gave me the idea of starting this podcast
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when I turned 50. Not that long ago, but long
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enough ago to see that I've got into three seasons.
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But I really wanted to have this conversation with Neil,
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particularly in our theme for Season 3, which is how to cut
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through with humanity in the age of AI.
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Because Neil's been working within social media for decades.
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He's seen it from Myspace through to TikTok.
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Now. He's worked with big brands,
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small brands and brands that have always wanted to cut
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through and to have resonance with their audience, not just
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fill feeds. However, what we know with
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social media now is we've got AI slop, we've got filling of feeds
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of just just crap that is not actually helping brands and
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helping humanity in the same way.
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So I thought this would be a really cool conversation to look
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back in the past a bit, but also how does that past shape a
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future that we can hopefully do differently?
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Neil, you're front of the camera now rather than having all
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powerful behind the scenes introduce.
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Yourself Hello, I'm Neil Kleiner.
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I have been specialising, I guess, in social media marketing
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and influencer marketing for 25 years.
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As Tash said, the first projects I worked on were on Myspace when
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the job of social media marketing was very different to
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what it is now. Back then it was building
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communities, it was finding what people loved and making them
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feel closer to it, to then encouraging them to participate
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and take part and also influence the direction of that community.
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It's a very different world now. There are pockets of community
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that still exist, but predominantly it is far more
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about broadcast and consumption than it is about community,
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which I think requires a very different kind of skill set and
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also a different economic model for brands.
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They have to produce content at such unprecedented scales that
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the renumeration models with agencies are now inefficient as
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well. So yeah, the journey of social
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media is one that's mirrored my own, you know, career journey.
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And now I've taken a semi enforced career break.
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Semi enforced to keep myself busy.
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As well as consultancy, I've been working on some personal
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projects and convincing my friends to launch podcasts and.
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Very well done for that by the way.
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Producing those podcasts as well as anti quoted, which maybe
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we'll get to as well. The sponsor of Cutting Through
4:01
Season 3. This is true.
4:03
This is true. So you touched a bit on I think
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the crux of the real problem we've got with social media.
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And I'm going to include social media and the kind of and the
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and use of AI tools a lot of way, because a lot of the way
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that people are using a lot of AI tools is to more rapidly and
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more just create more stuff and create more content and create
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more visual and audio and every type of content, of which this
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podcast is also another example. But it's that whole element of
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where does money? Where's the influence of money
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in this? And you touched on the agency
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models, but also you touched on the role of brands need to be
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playing in, in, in getting that cut through, but also being able
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to get the return on investment they want from social media.
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Because it just feels like when you're talking about community
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and getting people together, it seems as what everyone craves,
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but we're just not able to do effectively.
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And that's, and I think that often comes from it becomes a
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monetary conversation rather than something that's more about
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building connection and building.
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Look, I think there's a lot to touch on there.
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Let's start with community. Community exists more.
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It's more prevalent than ever. All right?
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Anyone that has a WhatsApp group chat with their friends, that's
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community. Anyone that has a street
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WhatsApp community, same thing. All these big massive industry
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communities on WhatsApp groups which say they have 1000 people
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and claim size when the reality of it it's a handful of people
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generally pontificating and peacocking about their own
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viewpoints and views rather than actual community.
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But I digress. Go on, I.
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Think that's just, I think that's just our industry task.
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I think you might. I think you might be right.
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Type of person. Look, I think community still
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exists and is growing more than ever.
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And I think that smart brand are ones that are investing in
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comparatively micro niche communities.
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I think social media was the first time we could publish
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constantly, react instantly and have reached huge audiences
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without traditional kind of gatekeepers.
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And our industry learns to optimise, but we optimise the
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wrong things. We got very good at metrics,
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engagement, reach, clicks. We didn't get much better at
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making things that people genuinely care about because we
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were so obsessed with scale, right?
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And not really meaning. AI has removed that last bit of
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friction, as you hinted. AI takes that same system where
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we can respond instantly to millions of people and makes it
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even faster and even easier instead of, so instead of trying
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to fix that kind of underlying problem of scale versus meaning,
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we're actually accelerating that division.
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We've already seen what happens when you prioritise speed,
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scale, and optimization over meaning, and AI is just going to
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amplify that unless we consciously do something about
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it. I've been in this industry long
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enough to know that we're in this perpetual pendulum swing
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from one thing to another. So now everything is about
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efficiency, right? That's the prevailing wind
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efficiency scale AI systems that help us do more, quicker,
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faster. And I feel there's now this sort
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of growing need for brands to actually think, let's not do
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big, let's find small, let's find meaning.
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Let's have communities that actually we can actually talk
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to. We can actually have a brilliant
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two way conversation with instead of essentially treating
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the cliche of social media was it's this great global
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conversation, this great town square.
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Now we know that isn't the case, but the scale of it was what
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attracted media owners and what attracted brands.
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We can reach millions of people, but what are we doing with that
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privilege? Aren't we just pushing more and
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more meaningless content because it's so easy for us to do and
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some of it's going to land right, versus actually really
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focusing on a smaller group of people that we can have
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meaningful conversations with? And it is, it's that whole
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scatter gun approach. It seems to be pervasive from
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media relations and traditional PR, which part of that was media
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relations, which is emerged into social media.
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And it's just continually about a scatter gun approach.
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And when we actually talk about the metrics and we actually talk
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about the strategy and we have a strategic conversation about
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what do we want to influence and why.
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Sometimes media relations is a useful tool.
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Sometimes social media is a useful tool.
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But it needs to be in the right mix and the right order and, you
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know, around what the audience wants to hear from you and what
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seems to be coming up. So much more on the
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conversations I'm having around this topic is have we lost sense
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of the real strategic outcomes that we want to affect, change
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or influence attitudes or behaviour with our core
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audiences? Or are we there chasing and we,
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like you said, we're chasing big numbers that are meaningless,
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so. At the moment, the strategy is
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volume. Yeah, that's it.
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That's the strategy. And we know this, that this
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doesn't work and we know that this doesn't relate to people
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and they just scroll on by. So what's going to be the
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catalyst? Do you think that's actually
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going to get people to take a step back and realise that they
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need to have a more strategic conversation and and
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understanding of the audiences they're trying to influence and
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why? It's just not working.
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It it's simply not working. We, we have already over the
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last few years, this is the, the 1st 18 to 24 months where social
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media has a growth engagement in this country and many others has
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stopped being this hockey stick growth plateauing and it is
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declining. And part of that is because
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again, we're just polluting these platforms with more and
10:08
more shit. AI has removed the friction in
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strategic decisions and the friction is often where thinking
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happens. It's where you pause.
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And when you ask, is this actually good?
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Is this working? Easy to make doesn't mean it's
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worth making. And I feel that in terms of
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where it's going to be, look, I've often talked about this
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idea that we're in this and not just social media, in every form
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of marketing communications. We are in firmly this era of
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pervasive mediocrity, right? And there's many reasons for
10:45
that. One, because no one wants to get
10:48
fired. Yep, basically in the current
10:51
climate, it's scary the market and it's just and so therefore
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people just keep on doing the same old thing that they think
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will get them to where they need to get to I.
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Think 7 out of 10 is fine for a lot of people, it's not shit,
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it's not great. It won't get us fired.
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It will work just enough rather than certainly.
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I feel such a privilege to have grown up in this industry at an
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age where there were big swings. Sometimes it didn't work, but
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when it did it really worked. And it feels at the moment,
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particularly with social media, but I think also with many other
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forms of marketing communications, we're just happy
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for OK, because we don't want to upset a ruffle any feathers.
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And I think, but is this also something to do with around that
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fear, fear of getting it wrong, fear of because, and it seems to
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be this double bind of because social media gives people a
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platform because it gets it enables scale of outrage of fear
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of anger that people just keep. We're just below the radar not
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to be able to offend people. But then also what does offence
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look like for different people is fundamentally different.
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And but we, but then again, we go back to if you know your
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target market and you know your target audience and you know
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what resonates and lands. But then why are we constantly
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in this kind of just good enough, but then also just good
12:16
enough? Or we've gone to just full on
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kind of rage inducing content to then get visibility and clicks
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and scales. But do we actually have the
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return on investment of it? And I think it just seems to be
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all these different pockets of different things are making us
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just lose sight of what actually these platforms, they were
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built. To entertain, they were built.
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To grab attention. They were built to inspire
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though. They were built to ask
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questions, not state answers. And I think a lot of the time,
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social content is all just about statements and answers.
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Here is the question and we're going to answer it for you.
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Whereas social media a lot of the times was the beginning of
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the conversation, not the end of the conversation.
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So I'll give you an example. I'm going to mention for the
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first time a very controversial word on cutting through.
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I'm going to mention the word Palestine.
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A really lovely or awful example, a brand that I won't
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mention produced ATV ad. And above the fireplace of the
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scene of the TV ad were candles that were green, red and black.
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The social response to that was how dare you produce content
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that is is directly showing that you are supporting Israel and
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not supporting Palestine. And that became a huge just
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because the colour of the fucking candles.
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So yeah, you're right. People are scared of offending
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different groups. People are scared of getting it
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wrong. People are scared of being
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fired. Agencies don't want to lose
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accounts, so they don't want to push for more powerful work.
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And certainly clients want to perhaps, and they always have
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done, bless them, perhaps, take a great idea.
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And during the process of winning the pitch to execution,
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of course, there is an element of dilution as it goes through
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more and more elements of feedback.
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That's why we've always started with bigger, bolder ideas,
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knowing that they perhaps get diluted.
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Yeah, there is. It's a really strange world to
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be a creative at the moment, unless you're independent and
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it's your own creativity. But if you are championing and
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protecting and producing creative ideas that you know
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that if that goes wrong it has an impact on people paying their
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mortgage, then 7 out of 10 is fine.
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Yeah. And I think, but it's also
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alongside this, we went through years of brands having a point
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of view, being seen to have be a force for good, recognising that
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the role they need to play in society.
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And part of that was culture and part and environmental.
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So part of the ESG conversation. Oh yeah.
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And that also became part of geopolitics and interests around
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different geopolitical issues. And what we saw, particularly
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after October 7 when you had the massacre of people in Israel and
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also the hostage taking, was that this was a geopolitical
15:18
issue that people weren't comfortable talking about.
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And you compare that to the response was to the Russian
15:25
invasion of Ukraine, where it was very much frowned upon if
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your business was still operating within Russia.
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And I know I think a lot of that was useful for some businesses
15:37
to be able to use that as an example to withdraw from a
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market that wasn't effective for them.
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And what we're seeing is, and one thing I've really rethought
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is the whole notion of business as a force for good.
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Business is there to make money. Business is there to be a market
15:55
mover to make money for shareholders, but also to make
15:58
money for employees to make to make money.
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And sometimes you don't need to have an opinion on viewpoint on
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everything and everyone. And also you don't need that
16:08
opinion to necessarily be public.
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It can be something that guides decision making around your
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supply chain, around your actions and everything.
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And but what? But then there's this change
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around people are expecting you to have a view and you're going
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to it's not going to be a view that's valid for everyone.
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And this whole division that that social media seems to have
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been that presiding over is businesses have been caught up
16:33
in it and now they've gone to the other extreme of not saying
16:36
anything. And actually on the viewpoint
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now that's probably OK. I don't think businesses should
16:42
be having a viewpoint on particular parts of geopolitical
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conversation, but and. Silence is not complicit
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complicity in this case. And sometimes it's not, but also
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it's also a recognition of where do you have the greatest impact?
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Where do you have? And this is where supply chain
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conversations become much more important because it's specific
17:02
to that business around what's happening geopolitically and the
17:05
stability that business wants from a global world that doesn't
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also exist anymore. That means that we can actually
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have a better conversation. And I think, and then coming
17:14
back to the parallels of the growth of social media, the
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growth of everyone having a voice, the growth of everyone
17:20
can be an influencer, the growth of citizens and journalism.
17:23
He's also coincided with the growth of rage, outrage, fear,
17:29
and an inability to listen to anyone else, an inability to
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actually carry different truths at the same time and recognise
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that's fine. And for me, that's the
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fundamental when we talk about how do we cut through with
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humanity in the age of AI is the ability to hold multiple truths
17:51
and the ability to be able to recognise that people come at
17:54
things from different perspectives and that's fine.
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Where do we go from here? As it should be.
18:01
Look, think in the early days of social media and I promised
18:04
myself I wouldn't sound like some sort of ageing marketer
18:08
going back in my day. But back in my day, I think
18:12
social media was particularly confusing for brands.
18:16
Suddenly it wasn't just broadcast your customers needed
18:21
to be friends with a packet of crisps or a detergent or.
18:26
Yeah and the powerful thing about social media versus TV
18:30
advertising TV advertising is 3030 seconds TV spot right.
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Social media is what happens after that 30 seconds.
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It's the conversation that follows.
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And you know, we, we saw lots of brands in the early days try,
18:45
try and be reactive into culture.
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I've worked on many a brand who OK one in particular a, a QSR
18:55
fast food chain, shall we say, reacting to the Queen passing
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away and having a real like 3 or 4 days debate about what we
19:05
should do. And I just feel if it takes that
19:08
long it's probably the wrong thing to do.
19:10
No, but it is. We've lost that kind of you and
19:13
I both grew up where instinctiveness and that kind of
19:15
that gut feeling and that ability to be on the pulse of
19:18
where you think your audiences need to hear from you seems to
19:22
be lost as it's all been around almost like anonymized metrics
19:26
that don't actually get that real human response to things
19:30
and humans. This is what I like about
19:32
humanity and this is what I like about humans is we're complex,
19:35
we're messy, we change our mind and we and things aren't all
19:38
nice and ordered and therefore our reactions can be almost
19:42
imagined, but then they'll surprise you and and how people
19:45
will react as well. But you're right, that kind of
19:48
that because when things take too long and decision making is
19:52
going around in circles, part of it might be listening to
19:54
different divergent viewpoints we wish.
19:57
Part of it might be just fear of doing something wrong because
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we're in an environment that everyone wants to drag you down
20:04
if they perceive you've done something wrong.
20:06
So it is that kind of. So how do you get so that
20:10
bravery of just making a decision?
20:13
And going with it and recognising it might actually
20:16
blowback, but it also might really work is something that
20:20
we've lost sight of a little bit as we've just gone into this
20:23
world of just stuff being being shared, I think.
20:26
At the moment everyone is outsourcing their judgement.
20:29
Yeah, I love that. Another new classic of
20:32
outsourcing your judgement. Yes.
20:35
Everyone is just oh, I don't know what to do.
20:39
I'm scared we might get it wrong.
20:41
What do you think? Then someone goes, thank you for
20:43
putting giving me that hot potato.
20:45
Yeah. I don't know what to think.
20:46
Either I'll ask someone else or we're asking AI.
20:49
Or this is it all we're asking AI, the amount of times you're
20:53
in a conversation and things like GBT said this or clocked
20:57
said this or whatever AI tool that you've got.
20:59
And then it's almost they've said it.
21:01
And then and then we can go into the whole conversation.
21:03
We're in the banked in bias that you've got within these systems
21:06
and they're to become an almost source of truth and human
21:11
judgement and that complexity. And I remember in the first
21:14
episode of this season when we're talking to Athena Pepes
21:17
and she was talking about that contextualization of multiple
21:20
truths is a human skill that we shouldn't be relying on
21:24
different AI tools to have. But we need to go, but we also
21:28
need to go back into understanding ourselves,
21:31
understanding our triggers, understanding why we feel
21:35
certain responses to things and therefore being able to
21:39
contextualise that response to be able to then extrapolate to
21:42
other people when we're making decisions.
21:45
Yeah. I, I think your question, I know
21:51
we've been very chatty, but your initial question was what can we
21:54
do about it? And I feel that ultimately, and
22:00
this is another thing that we've talked about quite often, I
22:03
think the other major factor in terms of the inefficiency and
22:07
the mediocrity is the fact that we are living in this plurality
22:12
of reality, which means that every single person's view of
22:19
social media and therefore the news agenda and therefore the
22:23
world is different. It's not even tribes anymore.
22:29
It's not even subcultures, it's every single person has a
22:34
different view on these things. So it means that if you're that
22:40
you don't have a foothold or a handhold on the world, you know,
22:45
you might come in with your perspective on how things might
22:49
might work in terms of a piece of creative or, or a piece of
22:52
content, but you might be completely different versus the
22:56
other people in the room. It might be a completely
22:59
different sense of perspective. So what do you do, Tash?
23:04
I don't know. But what I do know is the more
23:08
that people can be in the same room as other people, the more
23:14
people can meet up in real life and have conversations, the more
23:19
that you get off your bum and go to networking events or
23:22
conferences and speak to people. You would be surprised how
23:27
comforting that is. And I say that as well.
23:31
In a an era that we lost that power during COVID, we lost
23:37
power to go out and speak to people.
23:39
We lost the power of going to the pub after work, after a
23:42
pitch, being in the office all together.
23:45
Don't get me wrong, I like my flexibility, but I also love
23:48
working with people in the same room.
23:50
Yeah. And it but also if there's
23:52
different, I've worked in global companies, I think people can
23:55
build connection online as much as they can build connection in
23:58
real life. But sometimes it's the
24:00
conversations you don't expect to have.
24:02
It's the openness to just listening to someone who might
24:06
challenge your viewpoint or might just give you a different
24:09
perspective that you never had. And I travel quite a lot with
24:13
work. And so I'm often in airline
24:16
queues. And I just started chatting to
24:18
this guy who's a filmmaker and he's worked on different really
24:21
interesting environmental projects and worked on
24:23
interesting. And like some of the people he's
24:25
worked with, I don't necessarily agree with on certain issues.
24:28
I can respect their right to have that viewpoint and to be
24:31
able to talk about it. And I think this is the thing
24:35
that I would like to say when we have those conversations is just
24:38
when someone is affecting how you feel about things.
24:42
And it could then that rests with you and your knowledge
24:47
around why you've got that particular viewpoint or why
24:49
that's affecting you or why that's triggering you not to
24:52
then silence someone else. And I think this town square
24:55
that we talked about around the rise of social media has almost,
24:59
it's to your point, has just become everyone in their little
25:02
lanes. Shall they crossover and merge
25:05
together for fear of being agreeing with someone who you
25:09
might not agree with on something else?
25:10
And I think so, yes, it is chatting to more people, opening
25:16
up those conversations. Yes.
25:17
It's listening to different viewpoints and recognising when
25:21
you're feeling that their viewpoint might challenge your
25:24
own perspective and just to sit with that and understand it and
25:28
have that self reflection. And it's fine not to agree with
25:32
people. It's not fine to then say
25:37
without listening and without understanding, without entering
25:40
into dialogue, just to silence that.
25:43
And that's what we're saying. And then when you overlay that
25:46
with a system that just draws on particular sources without that
25:51
divergent thinking and ideas, then we know we're in a
25:55
situation we're in now. Yeah, yeah.
25:58
And that makes it really difficult bringing it back
26:01
around. Look at that.
26:02
I'm so professional bringing it back around to social media.
26:06
If you are a community manager thinking what the fuck do I post
26:11
today? Yeah, it's really tricky.
26:14
If your audience is not one audience, it is one audience.
26:17
But within that are multitudes of different perspectives,
26:22
political opinions, impotent rage to outrageous support and
26:27
love, all side by side and mixed in.
26:30
And you're trying to put together a post that engages
26:34
everyone. It's tricky.
26:36
The the the real power of community managers, which by the
26:40
way are the biggest unsung kind of heroes in marketing, was they
26:45
had to think about words that would engage meaningfully,
26:49
engage a community of people and try and find something, which is
26:53
a common connective thread which basically brings everyone
26:56
together in engagement via agreement or even disengagement.
27:01
But I'm sorry, disagreement, not disengagement.
27:04
It's a bit of disengagement, like one of the kind of the
27:06
communities I run, someone was questioning why are these people
27:08
leaving? And there wasn't that many in
27:10
the grand scheme of things, but why are people leaving and being
27:12
disengaged? And I think it's fine to accept
27:15
that people in different viewpoints and different and
27:17
people would disengage and people will engage and that's
27:20
all. But again, we go and then we go
27:22
even further back to the metrics.
27:24
If we start measuring the wrong things, be it reach and these
27:29
big numbers that don't actually have any meaning to them.
27:33
And then we're not actually targeting the right people, the
27:37
right content and the right strategy for that particular
27:40
brand issue or topic or individual.
27:43
We need to go back to the strategic conversations that
27:45
we're having and put humans at the centre of what we're
27:49
actually trying to achieve. Yeah.
27:51
And I think with that, looking at time, I think with that
27:54
strategic thing is it's not big gestures.
27:57
I think it's small decisions. It's not publishing something
28:01
just because you can or because it's Tuesday and we have to post
28:05
every day. It's taking a bit more time to
28:07
get tone. Just really work hard on being
28:10
genuine and human and learning that a person that letting a
28:14
person respond instead of automating everything.
28:18
I think it's it's my practical guide.
28:22
And again, just because you can doesn't mean you should with all
28:26
the different tools and ideas. And this is and none of this
28:29
series is about that. We should, but we should not use
28:32
different tools because. But it's been really purposeful
28:35
and intentional about what we're trying to achieve and to who go
28:40
back to the basics of your strategy of what do you want to
28:43
influence? What do you want people?
28:45
What do people know, think and feel and do now?
28:47
And what do you want to influence them to do something
28:50
differently or feel something differently?
28:52
Neil Great conversation. We traversed some interesting
28:57
topics and some we went into depth and some we just stayed on
29:01
the outskirts of that. Hopefully we'll finish this
29:03
conversation and ignite a bit of a conversation with other people
29:07
on one is let's look at how social media has developed and
29:11
changed. Let's look at what it's
29:13
influenced and what it hasn't influenced and let's start
29:16
making more intentional choices around how do we as the human
29:20
race and as practitioners in this marketing and comms field
29:25
can actually influence more effective change into the
29:28
future. Thank you for being on Cutting
29:31
through. I look forward to seeing what
29:32
you edit this topic to be like as well, because.
29:35
Yeah, I'll get on that right now.
29:37
I'm nothing if not a whip. Lovely to have you on cutting
29:41
through. None.