Latest / Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News / Emma Waters on birth rates, surrogacy, and family

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Emma Waters on birth rates, surrogacy, and family · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

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  Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to the 10 Penny Files.
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  Sherry Tenpenny.
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• 2:05
  It's a lot of variety here.
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  So like I already said, there's something here for everyone.
• 2:10
  So now let's get started.
• 2:12
  Today's conversation is with policy analyst at the Center for Technology and the human person at the Heritage Foundation, Emma Waters, to talk about her book, Lead Like Joelle, Seven Timeless Principles for Today's Women of Faith, a compelling vision of womanhood rooted not in wisdom, faith, not only in wisdom, faith, and joyful submission, but also applying all of those things to the glory of Jesus Christ for every season of your life.
• 2:43
  Emma, welcome to the 10 Penny Files.
• 2:45
  It's such a pleasure to have you here.
• 2:47
  Hi, thank you so much for having me.
• 2:49
  You know, we have a lot of events that happen through the Maha movement at the Heritage Foundation.
• 2:54
  And I mentioned to several of my friends that you were going to be on the show and they were so excited because they've met you at the Heritage Foundation and really like the work that you're doing there.
• 3:04
  Oh, that's so wonderful.
• 3:06
  Yes, we have loved our Maha and Restoring American Wellness Coalition that's brought together some of my favorite people in the DC policy world.
• 3:14
  Very cool.
• 3:15
  You know, in your book, at the very beginning of your book, you talk about the difference between the boss girl and the trad wife, which stands for traditional wife.
• 3:25
  What are the definitions of these?
• 3:27
  How do they differ?
• 3:28
  And how did you kind of come into that comparison?
• 3:32
  Yes.
• 3:32
  So girl boss feminism really refers to this 2010 and onwards focus, where women were told that your top priority for what it means to live a successful and meaningful life is career success.
• 3:45
  So you want to break glass ceilings, gain your C-suite apartment, wear your pantsuits every day, and really live the corporate lifestyle.
• 3:53
  Now, on the other hand, you have the rise of the trad wife movement, as you said, the traditional wife that really launched into the mainstream discussion in 2020 onwards.
• 4:04
  And it's really frankly remained there since then.
• 4:07
  And with the Tradwife movement, it tends to be an online depiction of women who choose to be homemakers, maybe they have a homestead, they're homeschooling their kids, they're married, they often have many children, and they're really trying to recover the lost domestic arts of homemaking and baking bread and beautifying a home.
• 4:27
  And so, in thinking about the cultural conversations we have for women today and the life scripts that's offered for women, I realize that many women in my generation, especially younger millennials and Gen Z are really feeling pressure to choose one of the two extremes where either they become a girl boss and career is their number one priority, or they have the Tradwife movement, which I think has many, many positive elements, but is ultimately not the solution that we're looking for because it doesn't integrate uh, I think some of the modern advances of technology and flexible work that are really available for women today and potentially required given a person's economic situation.
• 5:07
  So instead, I wanted to chart a course relying heavily on the Bible to really say there's a vision for what it means to be a strong, dedicated, and smart woman where you can put your family first, but also have wisdom to discern all of the other seasons of life and what they demand of you, whether that's work outside the home or not, um, but really equipping them with what the Bible says to be true rather than just cultural debates between feminist versus anti-feminist girl boss versus trad wife and all these dichotomies that we sort of give women that maybe aren't fully answering the questions that they have.
• 5:41
  I think that people tend to kind of be pegged into one or the other.
• 5:45
  They feel like it's an all or nothing.
• 5:47
  But you've sort of taken a different approach to that.
• 5:50
  That's right.
• 5:51
  And so I rely on the language of seasons very heavily to talk about how different seasons of a woman's life will require different things from her.
• 6:00
  So a season where you're not married and you don't have kids allows for a lot of freedom and opportunity and flexibility when it comes to the work that you do and the pursuits that you have.
• 6:10
  But seasons where you're married and maybe have young kids at home is going to be very demanding, where you are really focused on the little world that you're creating with your kids, your home and building a space that they can really thrive in.
• 6:22
  And then, of course, as they get older and potentially enter school or homeschooled and graduate, there's all these new opportunities and then duties that come with that.
• 6:31
  But I think it's far more healthy to think about our life in that lens of seasons.
• 6:35
  So instead of trying to do everything at one time, we can actually be a little more wise and recognize that you can maybe have it all, just maybe not all at the same time, and that that's actually a very fulfilling and beautiful way to approach life.
• 6:48
  That really is true because if you are involved deeply with your kids and motherhood and you're yearning for a business life, rather than thinking putting yourself in a position of denial, like I can't have that.
• 7:00
  Like I can't have that.
• 7:01
  It's like, well, it's it's like I can have it, but not right now.
• 7:01
  It's like, well, it's it's like I can have it, but not right now.
• 7:05
  And I think that's such a healthy way to position that.
• 7:05
  And I think that's such a healthy way to position that.
• 7:08
  Yes, absolutely.
• 7:08
  Yes, absolutely.
• 7:09
  Yeah.
• 7:09
  Yeah.
• 7:10
  How did you develop this 10, this 10th peg strategy that you booked?
• 7:10
  How did you develop this tent this tent peg strategy that you book?
• 7:16
  Yes.
• 7:16
  Yes.
• 7:17
  So this is a very playful way of saying here are practical application steps based on the story of JL, whom the book is named after.
• 7:17
  So this is a very playful way of saying here are practical application steps based on the story of JL, whom the book is named after.
• 7:25
  So in JL's story, we find her in Judges chapter four and five in the old testament.
• 7:25
  So in JL's story, we find her in Judges chapter four and five in the Old Testament.
• 7:30
  Israel, God's people is at war with the Canaanites, their ongoing enemy throughout the Old Testament.
• 7:36
  And as the battle rages on, Israel starts to gain victory over the Canaanites.
• 7:40
  And so the Canaanite general stumbles out of battle and finds his way in the tent of JL.
• 7:45
  Now, JL, in this rather infamous story, invites him in.
• 7:50
  He asks for water, she gives him milk instead.
• 7:52
  He lies down and falls asleep.
• 7:54
  And the moment he's asleep, she takes a wooden tent peg and mallet and drives it through his skull, thus soundly defeating Israel's enemy.
• 8:03
  Now, the takeaway here is not that we want to promote physical violence as a form of biblical femininity at all, but that there's these incredible practical um spiritual lessons that we learn from JL's story that are so important for women today.
• 8:17
  And so the first one is that the text says that JL recognized this Canaanite general from afar, which means that she was politically engaged in what was happening around her.
• 8:28
  She didn't just bury her head in the sand and say, oh, well, that's for my husband to figure out politics and the culture war, that's for him.
• 8:35
  He uh JL, like a lot of Maha moms across the United States was said, no, like I have a home and a family to defend and protect.
• 8:42
  And that means knowing what's going on in the world around me.
• 8:45
  And yet at the same time, JL was not acting like a social justice warrior or an activist standing outside holding signs and protesting.
• 8:53
  So as he stumbled toward her, she didn't say, hey, hey, ho-ho, Canaanites have got to go.
• 8:58
  She wasn't just shrieking and angry, but she was actually far more shrewd and effective.
• 9:03
  And so notably here, she doesn't pick up a sword to fight.
• 9:07
  She doesn't run into battle.
• 9:08
  She actually fights in a way that's distinctly feminine and reflects the place God has placed her.
• 9:14
  And this gets us to a key point, which is that setting up and taking down tents was a feminine domestic duty.
• 9:21
  That means JL would have taken that same wooden tent peg and mallet hundreds, if not thousands of times, driving her tent into the ground to secure her home from outside forces.
• 9:32
  And so because JL was present in her home as a wife and homemaker and was faithful to those daily duties and responsibilities, she was equipped for this extraordinary act of faithfulness when God called upon her.
• 9:46
  And the text is very clear that JL in this in this time was acting defensively in a time of war, and she truly feared God more than man.
• 9:54
  And while she didn't go seeking out the evil one, she was prepared to root out sin and evil when it came knocking on her door.
• 10:02
  And what's so beautiful is in the very next chapter, you have Deborah, a great prophetess in the Bible actually sing praises over JL and call her the most blessed among women because of her courage and faithfulness.
• 10:14
  And that phrase, most blessed among women, only appears one other time in the Bible.
• 10:19
  And it's the phrase that Elizabeth sings over Mary, the mother of God, right as she is preparing to enter to receive Jesus Christ into the world.
• 10:27
  And so it's this beautiful vision of what it looks like to truly put first things first, um, especially if you're married and a mother, putting your home and your family first, and that that being the way that God equips you for the work he has for you.
• 10:41
  And so related to that story, I thought using the tent peg strategy throughout the book would be really fun.
• 10:47
  And so for every chapter and all the different themes that we're diving into, I offer very practical steps that women could start implementing right away, whether they're questions to reflect upon or things that they can do.
• 10:59
  Um, so that every time we read about a given principle, we read the women of the Bible, practical applications, there's always something you can do right then to start implementing it in your life.
• 11:10
  Because we don't just want theory, we want real practice and action that can empower women in this life of wisdom and faithfulness.
• 11:16
  You know, we were talking a little bit uh before we started to record the show about um that your book is it's really well written and it's and it's pretty easy to read, but it's not just a light read.
• 11:31
  It's really a book that you would get and study, and that you can go through each one of the different things.
• 11:36
  It's a it's a book that you would read over and over again because you'd constantly be referring back to it on this on the steps that you put in there.
• 11:44
  So I think it's a really really great read for uh people that are trying to figure out their life and try to figure out and and not to feel at angst because, like we already said, you you can do it all, but maybe not all at the same time.
• 11:59
  So that uh putting these different pegs in there and putting them in an order, I think it's just a brilliant way that you've written them, put that together.
• 12:06
  Well, thank you.
• 12:07
  And yeah, that's exactly right.
• 12:08
  I want this to be a book that mentors and mentees, mothers and daughters, even small groups can use as a deep dive resource.
• 12:16
  Um you're precisely right.
• 12:17
  It's I think very rich with biblical stories and with theological insight, but in a very practical and readable way, because I wanted this to be something that could really invite women into the fullness of God's word, into a very thoughtful engagement with what it means to be a woman, whether you're strictly religious or not, um, take the Jordan Peterson line of Greek mythology, where these old and true stories have very many powerful lessons for us today, whether you say that they're the ultimate truth or not.
• 12:47
  And I think of my book very similarly, that even if you're not a Christian or you're not religious, these are timeless stories that have shaped the way that we think about the world for centuries.
• 12:57
  And so there's so much that can be learned and gleaned from them, regardless of where you find yourself.
• 13:03
  You know, you mentioned um uh James Jordan, and there's another thing that he talks about in the book about priest, king, and prophet, which kind of lends itself to what we've already mentioned about you can have it all, but not all at the same time.
• 13:17
  And then uh from going that from applying that to men, priest, king, and prophet applied to women, maiden, mother, and matriarch.
• 13:25
  And you said in your book, Lead Like JL, that this is a call to courage, clarity, and maturity.
• 13:32
  Why don't you describe that a little bit for people?
• 13:35
  Yes, absolutely.
• 13:36
  So I thought this was a really fun way of talking about the goal of a woman's life being progressing to different stages of maturity.
• 13:45
  So to be very clear, the maiden mother matriarch progression doesn't require someone to literally be married or be a mother.
• 13:52
  And to be a matriarch, you are likely going to be older with many sees much seasoned wisdom and experience under your belt, but you don't have to be a certain age to be a matriarch to have attained that place of wisdom.
• 14:00
  To be a certain age to be a matriarch to have attained that place of wisdom.
• 14:04
  So the way that I frame it is looking at how each stage of a woman's life is meant to equip her and prepare her in wisdom before moving on to the next.
• 14:04
  So the way that I frame it is looking at how each stage of a woman's life is meant to equip her and prepare her in wisdom before moving on to the next.
• 14:14
  So the maiden stage is the beginning of one's life where you're learning what it means to be a godly and wise and faithful woman.
• 14:14
  So the maiden stage is the beginning of one's life where you're learning what it means to be a godly and wise and faithful woman.
• 14:21
  Um, so this is the teacher stage where you're the student and you have, you know, the teacher of life or your parents or the Bible who is telling you all of these true things, and you're learning to implement.
• 14:21
  Um this is the teacher stage where you're the student and you have, you know, the teacher of life or your parents or the Bible who is telling you all of these true things and you're learning to implement it in your life.
• 14:31
  Well, you then hit the mother stage, which can correspond with marriage and motherhood, but doesn't have to.
• 14:36
  And this is where you're now more mature and you're able to take everything that you've learned and then start applying it and ruling over other people and ruling over other people, simply meaning like the authority that you have in your home as a mother, or if you're in the workplace, the way you work with your colleagues or any colleagues that are working for you, depending on the hierarchy of your business, but you're taking what you know to be true, and then you're making judgments or decisions based on that of your own volition.
• 15:04
  So you're not just doing what someone told you, you're making the decisions.
• 15:07
  And then you reach the stage of the matriarch.
• 15:09
  And this is this beautiful point in a woman's life where she has been faithful and learned many lessons of faithfulness and foolishness throughout her life.
• 15:18
  And now with this seasoned perspective, is able to look back on the younger generations of men and women and offer them the guidance and wisdom they need to navigate the maiden and the mother stage.
• 15:30
  So they're not simply ruling over and making judgments and decisions about things, but they're now acting as counselors, almost as intermediaries between God and man because they have this sage experience.
• 15:42
  And Psalm 9012 says, Teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom.
• 15:48
  And it's this idea that we learn and gain wisdom not only from knowledge of who God is, but also by learning from our past decisions, our mistakes and our successes.
• 15:57
  And we're able to take that and then pass it down to the next generation.
• 16:01
  And so one of the things that I have been very concerned about is that I think today we live in a in a world where the maiden is the most idealized stage where we say to be the ideal woman, you want to be young and youthful.
• 16:16
  You want to be unattached, autonomous, and free to do your thing.
• 16:20
  Think about Hollywood, where they perpetually are fighting any sort of aging whatsoever, and they want to be the youngest, hottest babe on the block.
• 16:28
  And maybe if you are a maiden and you're young, that's great.
• 16:30
  And we're all about aging gracefully.
• 16:32
  However, the height of what it means to be a wise and faithful woman isn't to be a maiden forever, but it's actually to be faithful and continue progressing and maturity and wisdom.
• 16:41
  And that means letting go of some aspects of youthfulness to take on the much bigger and better responsibilities of mature guidance.
• 16:49
  And so that's the vision I really wanted to point women towards.
• 16:52
  So we're not so wrapped up in the sort of independence of our youth, but are really looking towards the dependence and responsibilities of different seasons of life as an asset to our own development.
• 17:03
  That's really beautiful.
• 17:05
  And that that really, really is.
• 17:06
  And I think you're right about aging gracefully.
• 17:09
  So, how does this apply your whole premise of your book and the whole pegs?
• 17:15
  If you're either not married or you're maybe older and a widow and you've never really had any children, how do we apply these principles to our life?
• 17:24
  Both fantastic questions.
• 17:25
  So the first, if you are not married, you don't have children yet.
• 17:30
  The thing that I would say is the beginning of the book and the preface actually begins when I was in that exact same season of life in college.
• 17:38
  And a couple of the lessons I learned is one, you want to be open to marriage and pursuing a good and faithful spouse.
• 17:45
  Um, maybe that happens when you want it to, and maybe it takes longer.
• 17:48
  It just depends.
• 17:49
  But you want to be open to that.
• 17:51
  And if you're married but don't have kids, you want to be open to the gift of children as a blessing in your life.
• 17:57
  I once had a total freak out trying to manage uh the work goals that I had and the idea of getting married to my now husband, such that I actually broke up with him and said, I just can't do this.
• 18:08
  Children is too overwhelming, it's terrifying.
• 18:10
  Um, and I had a mentor who came to me and she said, Well, Emma, either you're right that uh children are going to ruin your life, or the Bible's right that children are a blessing to your life, but you can't both be right.
• 18:22
  So you should probably think about this and figure it out.
• 18:26
  And it was this great moment for me where I realized that the way that I had been thinking about work and marriage and motherhood was completely disordered.
• 18:33
  And I had taken on this feminist lie that somehow the most important thing that I would do would be in my career and work and not in this beautiful future season of marriage and motherhood and investing in the next generation, whether as a spiritual mother or as a biological mother.
• 18:50
  So I think for younger women, it's one being open to marriage and motherhood and really thinking strategically about those things now.
• 18:56
  So, how do you think about job and work and career in such a way that it can scale up and scale down depending on the season and demands of life?
• 19:05
  But then the second thing is that when you are single or if you don't have children yet, you have this incredible opportunity and so much freedom on your hands to study and learn and really invest yourself in these passions and causes that you care about.
• 19:20
  So I'm very much a huge advocate of make the most of the time that you have, invest deeply, invest well.
• 19:26
  And then on the older end of life, um, as a matriarch, whether you have children or you don't have children, the Bible presents this beautiful vision in Titus 2 of older women teaching younger women.
• 19:39
  And this is what I dive into in chapter seven of my book of women as wise counselors and negotiators.
• 19:44
  And so you have older women in the church and in society who were teaching younger women to be pure and kind and sober-minded and sober, literally speaking.
• 19:55
  And if you're in DC or a major city, you know, this is a really important thing with mom and wine culture that exists to be keepers of their homes, which isn't to say you never leave your home, but teaching them the domestic arts and how to care for their home and create beautiful things, to be submissive to their own husbands if they're married, and a host of these other practical skills and wisdom about how to be a godly woman.
• 20:19
  And so I think as an older woman, there's these incredible opportunities to mentor younger generations of women who are so desperate for that kind of close mentorship and godmother relationship, whether you're related or not.
• 20:34
  And there's a number of studies that have been done showing that while young women are far less likely to prioritize faith and family today, the solution to that might actually be older women inviting them into the life of their home and really showing them the beauty and goodness of these things.
• 20:52
  And that could actually go a very long way and overcoming the divide we see between young men and women today.
• 20:59
  Well, you know, I've had quite a few authors on the show that have talked about that divide of young men and how the young men don't even know how to behave anymore.
• 21:00
  You know, I've had quite a few authors on the show that have talked about that divide of young men and how the young men don't even know how to behave anymore.
• 21:08
  And I feel really bad for that when I've listened when I've talked to them and I've read through their books of men who are if they try to exert strength and to be like be a man, they get accused of toxic of toxic masculinity.
• 21:08
  And I feel really bad for that when I've listened when I've talked to them and I've read through their books of men who are if they try to exert strength and to be like be a man, they get accused of toxic of toxic masculinity.
• 21:22
  If they're soft and they're gentle or they like art or they like music, well, of course they're gay.
• 21:22
  If they're soft and they're gentle or they like art or they like music, well, of course they're gay.
• 21:27
  It can't be that they're just sensitive people.
• 21:27
  It can't be that they're just sensitive people.
• 21:29
  So then
• 21:29
  So they have, I think, issues with uh defining their where they live on that gender scale.
• 21:35
  And I think women do the same thing that either you are this boss mom and you're a career-griven girl, or you are somehow just a stay-at-home nobody.
• 21:44
  And I think that that a lot of younger women are having those struggles too.
• 21:48
  And I think that that's really something that you bring out well in your book, Lead Like JL.
• 21:53
  Yes, that's absolutely right.
• 21:55
  And I think you're exactly right that that sort of sharp divide has only been used to further confuse and I think hurt women in the long run because it's not accounting for all of the different goods and priorities and trade-offs that occur in a person's life.
• 22:11
  And also, it tends to downplay women who do choose to be stay-at-home moms.
• 22:15
  Um, as your language showed, like we have this sort of not that you were in, not that you were saying this, but how like the culture says it, like, oh, you're quote, just a stay-at-home mom.
• 22:23
  And so you have even women like on the view recently who were talking about Isabel Brown's CPAC message where she was encouraging young women to get married and have kids as soon as you can.
• 22:34
  Um, don't worry about when you think you're quote, financially ready, be financially wise, but you should just embrace the goodness of that season.
• 22:41
  And the view was lighting into her, saying that it was irresponsible to encourage young women to have children and to get married young, that it costs over 400,000 a year to care for a child with child care and all the costs that come with it.
• 22:56
  And it really struck me that we have this very elitist message around children, where we've now made children and even marriage, this sort of luxury good that can only be attained by the richest of the rich, many of whom, for example, of the women on the view are mothers themselves who have children and then turn around and tell younger women, well, this is simply out of reach for you.
• 23:19
  You won't be able to attain it.
• 23:20
  It's it's too good for you.
• 23:22
  It's it's too difficult.
• 23:23
  And I think it's the most patronizing and counterproductive approach we could take, um, because ultimately it's it's gatekeeping.
• 23:31
  They're experiencing the beautiful goods of marriage and of motherhood.
• 23:34
  And then at the same time, we're turning to younger women and saying, well, this simply isn't available to you.
• 23:39
  It's too hard.
• 23:40
  Um, and I think like providing those two extremes of what it means to be a woman, just again, hurt women across the board and just provide far more confusion than clarity in their life.
• 23:51
  Sure.
• 23:51
  Gosh, I didn't know that.
• 23:53
  That's really sad.
• 23:54
  Because again, it positions things as an either-or, uh, you do this or you do that instead of like together.
• 24:00
  I want to circle back uh just for a minute before we go to a break here about about the title of your book, The Lead Like JL, because there are a lot of women in the book in the Bible, and there are uh women that are that are kind of like we all know, like Mary and Mary Magdalene and places like that.
• 24:17
  But JL is just a, I mean, if you weren't looking for it, you probably wouldn't find that story.
• 24:24
  So, how did you uh find JL and her story and use her as the model for your book?
• 24:31
  Yes.
• 24:32
  So I certainly dive into all of the great women of the Bible in each chapter and every chapter for the virtue or principle that we discuss.
• 24:40
  I talk about the biblical women that really embody that.
• 24:42
  So from Deborah to Esther to Mary and Hannah and so many others.
• 24:46
  But the reason that I chose JL for the cover was twofold.
• 24:50
  The first is that when we talk about biblical femininity, I think that there can sometimes be a burnout among young women where they think, okay, this is going to be another conversation.
• 25:01
  It's going to be pink and flowery and really girly and about our emotions.
• 25:05
  And to be a biblical woman is to be this.
• 25:08
  And at times, and I'm not opposed to that at all, but I think at times it can fall on deaf ears or maybe not fully speak to the depth of women who want to see an expression of what it means to fight hard and live well for the things that you really care about.
• 25:23
  And so sometimes I find myself found myself a little um bored of certain versions of biblical femininity and wanted to find a character like JL, who's such an unconventional example of faithful womanhood, and really show you that to be a faithful biblical woman isn't just to be at home passive and meek and milly-mouthed and having no real opinions yourself, which none of the women in the Bible do, but using JL as this like really incredible way of saying, look, this is an unconventional example that you can follow the spiritual principles of in your own life.
• 25:55
  And the second is that oftentimes JL has been subverted by feminists to say, look, here's an example of a biblical woman who subverted the patriarchy, took control of her own life, she fought like a man to defeat evil, and they completely misrepresent the story of JL and turn her into this feminist icon rather than an example of a godly and faithful woman who is actually being faithful to her homemaking responsibilities and duties.
• 26:22
  And so I wanted to rescue her back from the feminists and say, no, you've completely misrepresented her story.
• 26:28
  And to be a strong and faithful woman is not in contradiction in the Bible.
• 26:32
  That is exactly the Bible's vision for women today, but it's done in submission to God's word, not in rejection of it.
• 26:39
  Wow.
• 26:40
  What a powerful statement.
• 26:41
  Woo, I'm glad I asked that question.
• 26:43
  That was really a great answer and a really powerful statement.
• 26:47
  So I want to let people just sit on that for just a second and think about how that when you said rescue her back from the feminist movement.
• 26:54
  That's amazing.
• 26:55
  That was really quite amazing.
• 26:56
  So we're going to take a short break here.
• 26:58
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• 27:49
  We will be right back with more conversation with Emma Waters about her book, Lead Like JL, Seven Timeless Principles for Today's Women of Faith.
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• 33:58
  Emma Waters is talking with us today about her book, Lead Like JL, Seven Timeless Principles for Today's Women, a compelling vision of womenhood rooted not in wisdom, faithfulness, and joyful submission to Jesus Christ just for today, but absolutely for every day now and ahead.
• 34:17
  And yes, you can have it all.
• 34:18
  You just may not be able to have it all at the same time.
• 34:21
  So Emma, welcome back to the show today.
• 34:23
  It's been such a pleasure talking with you here today.
• 34:26
  I know this has been so fun.
• 34:29
  No, you are a policy analyst at the Center for Technology and the Human Person at the Heritage Foundation, and you've been signing sounding the alarm of the crisis of America's collapsing birth rate, foreign exploitation of the surrogacy system, and what it means to the future of our country.
• 34:46
  So we're going to change gears just a little bit because we've had just a fabulous conversation about your book.
• 34:52
  And you have, and we want to focus a little bit more on your other area of expertise and passion, which is surrogate births.
• 35:00
  Tell people what that is and what the different forms are and why it has national security implications.
• 35:00
  Tell people what that is and what the different forms are and why it has national security implications.
• 35:07
  Absolutely.
• 35:07
  Absolutely.
• 35:08
  So outside of the book Leave Light Jail, my day-to-day policy work in DC is focused on these issues of IVF surrogacy, family formation, and declining birth rates, as you said.
• 35:08
  So outside of the book Lead Light Jail, my day-to-day policy work in DC is focused on these issues of IVF surrogacy, family formation, and declining birth rates, as you said.
• 35:19
  And so as I started diving into these issues, I realized that we oftentimes think about these as a domestic issue.
• 35:19
  And so as I started diving into these issues, I realized that we oftentimes think about these as a domestic issue.
• 35:27
  So why aren't people in the United States having babies?
• 35:27
  So why aren't people in the United States having babies what's going on?
• 35:30
  But in reality, this is a global problem where countries in Asia in particular are actually having far fewer children than we are even in the United States itself.
• 35:41
  And so there's a couple of interesting things I stumbled upon that I've really been sounding the alarm for.
• 35:46
  And as birthright citizenship is now at the Supreme Court and is really being debated in the Trump administration, these issues have only become more timely.
• 35:55
  So there's two things that to keep in mind here.
• 35:57
  The first is the issue of surrogacy itself.
• 36:00
  So commercial surrogacy is when a person or a couple pays another woman to carry and birth a child for them.
• 36:08
  So in the United States today, that relies on IVF to create a human embryo.
• 36:13
  And that human embryo could be related to the intended parents who will raise the child or maybe not.
• 36:19
  They could purchase the egg and sperm just from donors and create the human embryo.
• 36:23
  But then parents can sign a contract with a third woman who will then gestate the human embryo and hopefully birth a live baby that then goes to live with that intended parent or parents.
• 36:35
  Now, surrogacy in the United States is highly lucrative, with women making anywhere from 60 to 75,000 in the process, alongside medical reimbursements and things like that.
• 36:48
  And so there are a number of moral and ethical concerns that are raised in this process, whether it's the exploitation of women who are in financial need, and there's a lot of stories we can get into there.
• 36:59
  The debate about who owns the body of a surrogate, where in many cases the intended parents are actually the ones dictating what the surrogate can or cannot do during pregnancy and birth, sometimes asking her to get a forced abortion, threatening to take the money if she doesn't, other times telling her that she has to get a C section because that's their preference for delivery.
• 37:20
  So lots of exploitation rights of the woman issues here.
• 37:24
  But then there's this third category that I stumbled upon that I thought was fascinating.
• 37:30
  So because of the way that surrogacy works, you don't actually have any sex, there's no sexual intercourse that takes place, which means a human embryo could be created in one country, shipped to another, and placed in a surrogate in a totally different location.
• 37:45
  And this is what we've seen happen with the rise of Chinese nationals.
• 37:50
  So many of your listeners may be familiar with traditional birth tourism, where a woman in her eighth month of pregnancy will come from another country to have a baby in the United States.
• 38:01
  Now, for many years, we've had a certain interpretation of birthright citizenship that has said that any child born in the United States gains and maintains the full rights of U.S.
• 38:12
  citizenship at birth, including a social security number, a birth certificate, um, health insurance, the benefits related to being a citizen, uh, things in that space, a passport as well.
• 38:25
  Even if that child is going to be raised in another country.
• 38:28
  So you come and give birth here, and then with birth tourism, you take the child back to your country of origin, but they can keep citizenship based on our current interpretation of the law.
• 38:39
  Well, what's happened in recent years is we've seen the rise of a high-tech birth tourism industry, which is this boutique industry where foreign nationals will come to the United States not to have a baby here themselves, but to contract with a surrogate in the United States to have the baby for them.
• 38:57
  So the child legally belongs to the foreign nationals coming from another country, but it's born via an American woman in the United States.
• 39:07
  And there's an entire boutique industry, primarily out of California that's actually set up to work between the United States and mainland China.
• 39:15
  So some of the studies that have come out have found that of all foreign nationals coming to the United States, 41% are Chinese nationals.
• 39:24
  And the most common demographic of the entire batch of foreign nationals coming to the US for surrogacy are Asian men over the age of 42, which is hardly the most maternal demographic that you can imagine, potentially single older men coming and having children.
• 39:43
  But a big motivation that we've uncovered is that they want to have children who have citizenship in the United States, because that actually provides a fast tract for the rest of the family to get citizenship themselves.
• 39:57
  So there's been a lot that's happened, whether that's the Arcadia situation in California, where 20 uh 22 children were found in a surrogacy scheme living in the home of Chinese nationals in California.
• 40:10
  Um, Senator Rick Scott has led the charge on legislation to actually prohibit adversarial countries from accessing surrogacy in the United States, because as you can imagine, this is a massive example of immigration fraud.
• 40:25
  But there's also a lot of examples of national security risk, where if you have a large number of children that we don't track in the United States who have U.S.
• 40:34
  citizenship but are born and raised in mainland China, well, what happens when they turn 18 or 21?
• 40:40
  They can come back to the United States as a citizen and apply for college or jobs in sensitive areas, research or intelligence, and can be a real threat to the United States and an asset to the Chinese government themselves.
• 40:56
  So there's a lot to dive into here, but it's one of those areas that is actually gaining more and more national attention as journalists and lawmakers are starting to grapple with the reality that this underregulated industry of international surrogacy could actually be weaponized against the United States.
• 41:14
  So let me let me unpack that a little bit because that was a lot to take in for somebody who's maybe just heard it the first time.
• 41:22
  You're obviously quite fluent in all of that and know all of the details.
• 41:26
  But what I think I heard you say, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you've got a couple that lives in China, or even just a man that lives in China that pays to have uh someone, a woman in the United States be either impregnated by them or by in vitro fertilization have the egg implanted in them so that they can have the baby here, and then they take that baby back to China and raise them, but they are they have dual citizenship between uh China and the United States.
• 41:57
  And then as they raise up and they get to be 18 or 20 years old, because they are an American citizen, they can come back to the US on that citizenship and go to school, go to college, get benefits and all that stuff.
• 42:00
  20 years old, because they are an American citizen, they can come back to the US on that citizenship and go to school, go to college, get benefits and all that stuff.
• 42:10
  Did I unpack that correctly?
• 42:10
  Did I unpack that correctly?
• 42:12
  Yes, that was spot on.
• 42:12
  Yes, that was spot on.
• 42:13
  The only thing I'll say is that with surrogacy, it's it's always done through IVF or in vitro fertilization.
• 42:13
  The only thing I'll say is that with surrogacy, it's it's always done through IVF or in vitro fertilization.
• 42:20
  So there will never be any sexual contact between the foreign national and the surrogate.
• 42:20
  So there will never be any sexual contact between the foreign national and the surrogate.
• 42:25
  Um, but the foreign national would use their um egg or sperm.
• 42:25
  Um, but the foreign national would use their um egg or sperm or purchase donor egg or sperm to create an embryo.
• 42:33
  And then that's what would go to the surrogate to birth and gestate.
• 42:39
  That you said that I found really interesting because I did do, um, knowing we were going to talk about this, I did do some reading and look up some things, but I didn't know that it's like who owns the mother, the the mother in requiring a C-section, or if they get a genetic testing and find out they may have a genetic abnormality or down syndrome or a whole long list of things, um, you know, kind of requiring them to have an abortion.
• 43:05
  Um, I would imagine they're also doing things like um having say about um uh maternal vaccination and having say about what the mother's eating and whether or not they should be only organic.
• 43:18
  I mean, what does that what kind of rights does that surrogate mother have, or do they not have any?
• 43:25
  And it that's where it falls into what you were uh talking about of an unregulated industry.
• 43:30
  Do they do they have any rights?
• 43:32
  So, yes and no.
• 43:34
  It's very complicated.
• 43:36
  Um, so what I'll say is that while the baby is inside the woman, that woman has full autonomy over what happens to the child.
• 43:45
  So there's been numerous stories in recent years, for example, where um, in one case, a surrogate was actually diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer while she was pregnant and would have to deliver the baby preterm.
• 43:59
  Now, far enough along that the baby would most likely survive and be healthy, but would likely require an extended stay in the NICU.
• 44:07
  Well, in her case, she wanted to delay her treatment for as long as possible to give that baby the best chance at life.
• 44:14
  But the intended parents actually told her they would rather abort the baby and just start over because they didn't want to deal with the uh cost of the NICU.
• 44:23
  They said, we paid you for a healthy baby, not this situation.
• 44:27
  And so even though the mother had complete rights over what happened to the child, they couldn't physically force her to get an abortion, they threatened that they would take away the financial payments that they had promised her.
• 44:39
  And knowing that many surrogate women are doing this for the financial benefits to provide for their family and their children, that can put women in a terrible situation where maybe they're being asked to give back money they don't have anymore because they've now spent it to care for their family.
• 44:54
  And so in the case of this woman, she refused to get an abortion.
• 44:58
  She had the baby, but the moment the baby comes out of the mother's womb, she has no rights over the child, and the intended parents have all the rights over the child.
• 45:09
  And so in her case, um, unfortunately, the intended parents refuse to offer life-saving care.
• 45:15
  And so she had to live with the reality that the baby um passed away and she couldn't do anything about it, even though she wanted to.
• 45:22
  The intended parents didn't.
• 45:24
  Now, when it comes to what happens for the surrogate during pregnancy, it's an incredibly um predatory market where women are asked to sign very invasive contracts and oftentimes presented as well, you can receive all of this money as a surrogate and sign this contract, or you can forego all of this money.
• 45:45
  And if that's part of the motivation to provide for your family, that can be incredibly coercive and compelling.
• 45:51
  And so contracts can say um who you can or cannot have sexual contact with.
• 45:57
  It can um talk about whether you're allowed to work, how much you can work, how much bed rest you have to be on, what kinds of foods you can eat, what kind of vaccines you're required to get.
• 46:08
  It's an incredibly extensive list of expectations or legal requirements placed on the woman that can often be weaponized against her throughout the process.
• 46:19
  Have these court, if these kinds of cases, if they ended up in court in the court system yet?
• 46:24
  So they have at various points.
• 46:26
  Um, and they have it various points is the short answer, but there hasn't been a ruling that has map that has really changed our public policy around surrogacy.
• 46:35
  And for the most part, this is only a state-level issue.
• 46:39
  There's actually no federal regulation directly governing commercial surrogacy in the United States.
• 46:44
  And so it means that different states can have very different laws looking at how to govern this practice.
• 46:52
  Um, but for the most part, it's again pretty much tailored toward does the intended parent have the money to provide, does the surrogate pass a psychological check and has she had one successful pregnancy herself?
• 47:05
  And then beyond that, it goes to caseworkers at the surrogacy agency and lawyers who mediate the finer details of it.
• 47:12
  But a lot of it is very much outside of any sort of formal governance by a state or federal body.
• 47:19
  Is there anybody or any particular person or I mean, let alone what your work is at the Heritage Foundation, uh, championing championing this at the at the federal level because it seems as though federal oversight needs to come into play here because you are talking about a national security issue.
• 47:38
  That's exactly right.
• 47:39
  And so this is one of the main issues that I work on at the Heritage Foundation as well as some of my colleagues when it comes to national security, birthright citizenship, and immigration fraud, and really protecting women and children in this very predatory practice.
• 47:53
  But there's other advocates like Katie Faust at them before us, Jennifer Law, who launched the Center for Culture and Bioethics, and a number of other uh lawmakers and journalists in the national security and immigration space who are really sounding the alarm on this issue.
• 48:09
  And so, as I mentioned, there's bicameral legislation that's in the federal that's in the House and the Senate targeting the international aspects of commercial surrogacy.
• 48:19
  But I think you're starting to see a lot more organizations and people realize that when we're talking about the creation of human life and the gestation and birth of human life, this is absolutely an area where we need Mac, we we want to be absolutely sure we are setting people up for success and protecting them from harms and abuses and no regulation simply makes it easier for bad actors to take advantage of vulnerable, vulnerable people in this situation.
• 48:46
  Absolutely.
• 48:47
  And I think that a lot of us, at least, you know, I used to work years ago, this was about 2008.
• 48:52
  I had a, I was the medical director of a small hospital in um in Mexico.
• 48:57
  And so the concept of of what uh Trump calls anchor babies has been around for a long time, you know, particularly across our southern border.
• 49:00
  Uh, Trump calls anchor babies has been around for a long time, you know, particularly across our southern border.
• 49:06
  But I don't think people know about this baby tourism stuff of coming from China and maybe other countries from around the world.
• 49:06
  But I don't think people know about this baby tourism stuff of coming from China and maybe other countries from around the world.
• 49:13
  And I think sounding the alarm about this in a very big way is very important.
• 49:13
  And I think sounding the alarm about this in a very big way is very important.
• 49:17
  I also think that the rights of the mother are very important.
• 49:17
  I also think that the rights of the mother are very important.
• 49:20
  I had a patient in my practice, this was years ago, that she, when she had her first, maybe even her second baby, she felt so good.
• 49:20
  I had a patient in my practice, this was years ago, that she, when she had her first, maybe even her second baby, she felt so good.
• 49:28
  She just felt it was like the best.
• 49:28
  She just felt it was like the best she'd ever felt in her entire life.
• 49:31
  I think it's both the high levels of progesterone that were going on in her body when she was pregnant.
• 49:36
  And so she um took on a surrogacy program, or I don't even know what the appropriate term is for it, but she decided to be a surrogate for the her third baby.
• 49:47
  She said, wasn't going to do it again because she felt like she really wanted to give back.
• 49:51
  And she had just terrible complications.
• 49:55
  The baby was okay, but she had long-term health problems that were very complicated.
• 50:01
  And it was just like not my problem, you know.
• 50:05
  And so there are is that sort of side of the equation too that probably isn't talked about very much.
• 50:11
  Yes.
• 50:11
  And I'm so glad that you brought this up because there have actually been multiple studies done looking at population levels as high as one million women, looking at this was done in Canada and in the United Kingdom and in the United States.
• 50:25
  And it found that when it comes to pregnancy outcomes, surrogacy pregnancies are the most high-risk pregnancy for both mothers and children.
• 50:35
  It's more high risk than IVF pregnancies, and it's way more high risk, sometimes two to three times more high risk than a naturally conceived child.
• 50:44
  And this is the case, as you're pointing out, whether that woman has had successful pregnancies naturally before or not, because there's so many different chemicals and hormones and the introduction of a human embryo that she's not related to.
• 50:56
  So there's blood type concerns and a number of other factors that can make this an incredibly um difficult and high-risk pregnancy.
• 51:04
  And this is oftentimes glazed over as, oh, it's not that big of a deal.
• 51:08
  It doesn't happen to that many people.
• 51:10
  But time and time again, studies simply looking at what is the data say have found that surrogacy pregnancies are the most high risk.
• 51:18
  And this is something that I think a lot of women don't receive informed consent about when they're considering becoming a surrogate.
• 51:24
  They're sold on all the benefits of it.
• 51:26
  They're told if you've had healthy pregnancies in the past, you're going to be totally fine here.
• 51:30
  And that's simply not something that doctors can guarantee.
• 51:33
  And it's not what the studies have shown us to be true.
• 51:36
  Um, so this is a very big factor here as well, because then you are risking her health, her future fertility if she has really harsh complications.
• 51:46
  Um, and then there's also the sense of once you've had a baby, if you do have complications, the baby can actually be this very powerful healing relationship with the mother, where breastfeeding helps you lose weight and helps your hormones stabilize, your uterus contract back in.
• 52:03
  It can actually directly um help with postpartum depression and a number of these factors.
• 52:09
  But in surrogacy, the moment the baby came comes out, oftentimes they're taken from the mother, even before the mother has bonded or had chance to be in contact with the child and given to the intended parents.
• 52:20
  So not only does the child lose the connection with the only woman that he or she has ever known at birth, but that woman loses the ability to heal and sort of recover with the closeness of a child.
• 52:32
  Um, and I think that's just part of the inherent loss and injustice built into the surrogacy practice.
• 52:38
  Yeah, and I think that, and I've read some things about this um previous to doing the research for our conversation today about that uh the the parents that are going to receive the child don't want any possibility of bonding to happen between that woman who's carried that baby inside of her for nine months, and now it's like just get rid of it and don't have any chance to bond because maybe she'll change her mind.
• 53:02
  Maybe she'll have that bonding moment with that child.
• 53:05
  Uh, it's a terrible problem, isn't it?
• 53:08
  I mean, it's really much more than just, I mean, you're bringing a life into this world and the time of conception is our God-given life that's brought brought everything into this.
• 53:17
  So it's a very complex issue.
• 53:20
  What do you see as the best possible outcome for this issue?
• 53:25
  Oh, goodness.
• 53:26
  Well, I think when it comes to international surrogacy, so foreign nationals coming to the US to work with American surrogates.
• 53:33
  Um, I think without a doubt, we want to see a complete prohibition on that practice.
• 53:38
  So interestingly, almost every single developed nation in the world prohibits cross-border surrogacy.
• 53:45
  The United States and Ukraine are two massive outliers that actually uh enable and encourage this practice.
• 53:52
  But most countries, from India, Thailand, Nepal to France and Italy, and so on, have actually said absolutely not.
• 53:59
  This is not worth it for the women, for the children, or for immigration laws that are in place.
• 54:04
  So I would love to see the United States move to that position where we prohibit this international industry that really disproportionately fuels Chinese nationals coming here and taking advantage of our citizenship process.
• 54:17
  When it comes to domestic surrogacy, ultimately, um, any time you bring a third person into the marriage relationship, I think you've gone outside this covenant of man-woman marriage and this sort of exclusive bond of marriage, however you define it.
• 54:32
  Um public studies, however, are pretty torn across the board about whether surrogacy should be allowed or not.
• 54:40
  And where we tend to find at least current public opinion results is that they're they're okay with domestic surrogacy, surrogacy only in the United States, but they want to see strong regulations in place to protect the surrogate mothers, the children, and the intended parents in the process.
• 54:57
  So I think a robust conversation about what it looks like to govern this industry with the best interests of the child and of the surrogate mother in mind is going to be our first stop and actually ensuring that we have a just system before us.
• 55:09
  Um, because again, if you don't have just laws in place, you've opened the door wide for bad actors to come in and take advantage of this entire process.
• 55:17
  And we have ample stories to that regard.
• 55:20
  Wow.
• 55:21
  Well, Emma, what a fabulous conversation we've had today about two really important topics.
• 55:26
  We've got about one minute left.
• 55:28
  So I want you to summarize by selling people where they can follow you with the surrogate worth and where it's the best place to get your book lead like J lead like JL.
• 55:38
  Yes.
• 55:38
  So you can follow me on X at EML Waters and on Instagram at EML Waters underscore, where I dive into all things surrogacy IVF, family formation, and my book, Lead Like JL and lead like JL can be purchased on Amazon in stores or online at Barnes and Noble and really anywhere books are sold.
• 56:00
  Very, very good.
• 56:00
  Very, very good.
• 56:01
  Well, thank you so much for your work.
• 56:01
  Well, thank you so much for your work.
• 56:03
  This beautiful book is something that people should have so they can read this over and over again.
• 56:03
  This beautiful book is something that people should have so they can read this over and over again.
• 56:07
  And then your work, how it just folds right into the surrogacy work.
• 56:07
  And then your work, how it just folds right into the circuit work.
• 56:11
  So thank you for your work.
• 56:11
  So thank you for your work.
• 56:12
  Thank you for your dedication to the Lord.
• 56:12
  Thank you for your dedication to the Lord.
• 56:15
  Um, your shining, uh shining example for all of us.
• 56:15
  Um, your shining uh exciting shining example for all of us.
• 56:18
  So with that, I want to thank all of our listeners who've been with us today or going to listen to us in the future.
• 56:18
  So, with that, I want to thank all of our listeners who've been with us today or going to listen to us in the future.
• 56:23
  We'll close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible.
• 56:23
  We'll close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible.
• 56:26
  I close all of my podcasts with, which is Romans 12, 12.
• 56:26
  I close all of my podcasts with, which is Romans 12 12.
• 56:30
  Rejoice in hope, be patient in trouble, and be persistent in prayer.
• 56:33
  Remember, God is always with you every step of the way, even though your timing may not be his timing, he's promised to always be with you.
• 56:40
  So I want everybody to have a great rest of your day, and we'll see you tomorrow or the next time on the 10 penny files.
• 56:46
  Have a good day, everybody.
• 56:47
  Goodbye, and God bless.