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Episode Two Hundred Fifty Eight: A Hoax Within A Hoax · The Death Of Journalism

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to episode two hundred and fifty eight of the
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Death of Journalism podcast. My name is John Zigler. I'm
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: your host on today's jam Pack Show. The Epstein story
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: continues to be a problem for Donald Trump in the
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: dumbest of ways. We speak to the independent journalist who
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: was kicked out of the Epstein survivor press conference. A
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: gruesome videotape murder in Charlotte sends the liberal legacy media
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: into a tailspin. My sort of friend, Malcolm Gladwell, admits
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: he's a coward. Yes, I'll give my two cents on
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: the Phillies baseball, Karen. I'll also provide a possible alternative
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: explanation for the bombshell LA Clippers NBA scandal, and I'll
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: review the past weekend in football at nearly every level.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Not long after episode two hundred and fifty eight of
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the Death of Journalism podcast was recorded, there was major
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: breaking news to which I will respond before we actually
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: air what had been recorded before that breaking news. And
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: you're probably well aware of what I'm referring to, and
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: that is the shooting of conservative commentator Charlie Kirk and
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: an event on a college campus in Utah. Now because
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: of timing considerations, I am recording this based upon very
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: limited information. As of this taping, all I know is
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: that Charlie Kirk was shot and that the situation from
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: the videos that have circulated appears to be grave. And
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: while it is not as of this moment, being reported
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: that Charlie Kirk has been murdered and is deceased, based
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: upon what I currently know to be the case, that
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: is the most likely scenario. I hope that's not the case.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I hope that by some miracle his life was saved,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: maybe because he was right there in a place where
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: he could get mediate, immediate medical attention. But the videos
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: of the shooting are beyond horrific and look extremely ominous,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: So it is quite possible that by the time you
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: are hearing this, there is a far more definitive and
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: even more pessimistic result regarding what happened to Charlie Kirk.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Regardless of whether or not there is some sort of
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: miracle that saves Charlie Kirk, which as of this moment,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I'm still hoping for, and I know as of this moment,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: many many, many people across this country are hoping for.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: This is an extremely significant event one which I will
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: obviously respond to in greater detail in the next episode
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: of the podcast once I have more information about what
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: really did transpire, But as an initial reaction to what
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: we currently know, which is very very little, I just
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: want to share two elements of my reaction. First is
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: the personal I never really was a huge fan of
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk, although I respected his ability and his impact,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: partially because I did not like the way that he
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: handled the Carrie Lake situation in Arizona, especially in the
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: aftermath of her running for governor of Arizona, and he
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: claimed that she had won when she clearly didn't. But okay, fine,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: and that's certainly not a big deal right now, but
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: it's just contexts for my view of Kirk.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: However, my view of Charlie Kirk very.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Recently took a significant change because, much to my surprise,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: my thirteen year old daughter Grace had become a huge
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: fan of Charlie Kirk. And she's not alone. I mean
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: among the Christian community, which my daughter Grace is very
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: into Christianity. Among young people and conservatives, Charlie Kirk is
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: absolutely considered to be a hero, and without any knowledge
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: on my end, Grace became a big fan of Charlie Kirk,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: and I even recorded a video of Grace talking about this,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: and I posted it online and I sent it to Charlie.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Charlie had been following me on Twitter, and I guess
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: was aware of me and vice versa, and Charlie shared
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: that video, which got Grace all excited and even promised
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: to send her both privately as well as publicly, promised
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: to send her a sign Maga hat. And I remember
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: telling Grace that he had done that. I was hesitant
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: to even tell her because a lot of celebrities, you know,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: they get busy or they aren't in full control of
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: who's in charge of doing things, and is it possible
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: that it falls through the cracks, And I don't want
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: to set her up for disappointment if she's all excited.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: But I had a good feeling that Charlie Kirk would
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: come through, and she got all excited anticipating this package
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: in the mail, and sure enough, a week later, there
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: was a package in the mail with a sign Maga
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: hat from Charlie Kirk, a copy of his book and
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: some other things. And then I posted her video of
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: her reaction to opening that where her joy was overwhelming
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and quite evident, and Charlie shared that video and I
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: thanked him privately.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Because obviously, when you're a dad, there's.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Not much more someone can do for you than to
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: give your child joy, which Charlie Kirk clearly did, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: to that I will always be very appreciative. And you know,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: just a moment or so before I recorded this, I
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: had to call my wife, who teaches at Grace's school,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: and alert her that this had happened with a grave prognosis,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: to make sure that Grace, as well as.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: I'm sure many other fans of Charlie Kirk.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: At the school, would you know, the day, would be
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: prepared for this news should it break within school, which
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: With cell phone restrictions.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: But I know I've not spoken to her yet, but
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that Grace is going to be beyond devastated here,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: regardless of what the outcome is. And so from a
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: personal standpoint, you know, this one hits home in a
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: big way for multiple reasons that I think I've already articulated,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure I'll have more information about in the
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: next episode of the podcast. The second and The obviously
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: much larger ramification of this horrific event is what it.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Does and says.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: To and about our national public discourse, which is clearly
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: in disarray, obviously in a worse position than it has
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: ever been before. We've not had something like this happen
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: to a person like Charlie Kirk, who is a commentator.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Obviously Trump had an assassination attempt against him, but he
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: was a presidential candidate, and I think that's a different category.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: But especially coming on the heels of what happened.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: In Charlotte, which I do talk about in this episode
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: of the podcast, where Charlie Kirk actually became a significant
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: part of that story. He was even called out by
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Van Jones on CNN, I believe incorrectly, and who knows.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: We have no idea at this moment whether or not
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: that helped provoke this shooting. But the timing is certainly
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: rather suspect, and so you know, when I talk about
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: that later on in this episode of the podcast, please
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: keep that in its context. But the timing here is
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: obviously very horrendous, suspicious, very damning. There's a man in
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: custody who's in middle aged, bolding white guy. You know
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: at this moment nothing about him, and so I don't
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: want to rush to any judgments about what his motivations were.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: But it's not hard to presume that he is a
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: liberal and who knows, maybe was provoked by the issue
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: in Charlotte or the transgender issue, or who knows what
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: he was provoked by. We may never know, but he's
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: still alive. But this is going to send an earthquake
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: shockwaves through the entire media ecosystem. I don't know what
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: ramifications it will have. I don't know whether or not,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: you know, we suddenly tone down the rhetoric. I have
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: no idea where we're going to go from here. It's
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: just that this is going to be a massive media
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: and political story. And like I said, once I know
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: more about it, I will comment on it in the
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: next episode of the podcast. But as of right now,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping for the best when it comes to Charlie
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Kirk fearing the worst. And I just wanted to make
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: sure that, obviously, since this was going to be on
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: the top of everyone's mind when they listen to this episode,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: that we at least addressed it in some way, shape
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: or form. Even though the amount of information I have
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: is extremely limited as of this taping, So that's.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: The Charlie Kirk situation.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Again. The rest of this episode was recorded before the
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: shooting of Charlie Kirk, and obviously I will have more
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: on that story as well as anything else that happens
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: regarding it, in the next episode of the podcast. Until then,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: here is what we recorded before the shooting of Charlie Kirk.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: We have a ton to get to in this episode
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: of the podcast, so I may be streamlining some of
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: my commentary so that it is not a four or
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: five hour episode. It also includes an interview that have
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: already alluded to that we're only going to play the
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: first half of or it's so long, we're going to
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: break it into two parts, So the first part will
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: be in this episode, and part two our interview with
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Michael Tracy, the independent journalist who has gotten deeply into
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: the Jeffrey Epstein story, in the next episode of the podcast.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: But that's where I want to start, because after episode
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: two fifty seven was recorded, there was this, I guess
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: you would call it a press conference with Epstein's survivors
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. All sorts of very strange things happen,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: including with our guest in this episode, Michael Tracy. And
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: it's a topic that I have obviously spoken about quite
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: a bit from a contrarian perspective, mostly with regard to
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: how I think that this entire story has been completely blown, misunderstood.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Greatly exaggerated.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: My bottom line on this is that Epstein was guilty,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: and I'm not sure that anybody else was, and that's
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: certainly this massive, grand, bizarre conspiracy involving sex trafficking to
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: lots of very powerful men is a sick fantasy. There's
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: no evidence or logic for it. And I put myself
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: in a very odd position here because I'm obviously not
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: a fan of Donald Trump. I try to be fair
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: to him as much as I possibly can, but I'm
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: in this particular issue, I am almost entirely defending him,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: although he's made some weird missteps that I'm going to
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: try to explain.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: In this episode of the podcast.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: The most recent controversy as of this taping is that
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: as part of I guess you would call it the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Epstein file release, which keeps coming out in dribs and
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: drabs and doesn't seem to satisfy anybody there is this
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: birthday card for Jeffrey Epstein's fiftieth birthday, which occurred back
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, where previously The Wall Street
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Journal had reported that Trump had written this very odd
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and very intimate prose that was basically imagining a conversation
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: between he and Jeffrey Epstein in this rather body birthday
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: card that allegedly was sent from Trump to Epstein. And
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Trump was so enraged when The Wall Street Journal reported
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: this that he not only denied it, but he threatened
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: a lawsuit. Not one hundred percent sure if the lawsuit
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: was ever filed, but I presume that it may have been.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: They certainly have as every intent and his history shows
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: he has no hesitation filing lawsuits against major media outlets,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: even those that are owned by people that are supporters
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, like News Corp.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Owns the Wall Street Journal.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: And so basically Trump took the position that this was
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: a fabrication, This didn't happen, and I'm so positive it
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: didn't happen, I'm gonna sue. But then out came the
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: actual birthday card as part of I guess you would
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: say it was leaked, but I guess this is part
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: of the Epstein files, although apparently it came from the
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Epstein estate. Regardless publicly, this card came out and it
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: has what appears to be Donald Trump's signature. It's got
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: the the very very rude outline of a female that
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: you know, where the pros for this birthday card is
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: inside the female and it doesn't seem like Trump at all.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I'm the first to acknowledge that. However, the signature, whilst
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: it's not Trump's current signature, does appear very consistent with
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: his signature back in two.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Thousand and three.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: And the liberal media has gone absolutely bananas over this, bananas.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Like this is the smoking gun.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: We got him, We got him for the thousandth time
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: in the history of his political career. You know, at
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: any other presidency, this would be devastating. And the only
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: part of that hilarious narrative that I can somewhat understand
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: is that Trump will would have been seen if this
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: is actually authentic as having lied. Of course, I don't
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: even buy that it's a lie. I have a theory
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: and what really happened here, which I'm gonna get to momentarily.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: But there are so many problems with this entire narrative.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: In fact, I just think this is so stupid.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: This whole story is stupid, but particularly this birthday card thing.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Why because the birthday occurred in two thousand and three. People,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, Jeffrey Epstein had not been
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: arrested for anything, charged with anything, played guilty to anything.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: You haven't, He.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Hadn't killed himself yet he was a card caring member
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: of the liberal elite in two thousand and three. And
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: if you don't believe me, and I've posted these on
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: social media, and I'm absolutely baffled as to why Trump
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: supporters have not made these old articles go viral. But
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, Epstein was the focus of
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: a glowing profile in Vanity Fair. In Vanity Fair in
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: two thousand and three, and the focus of not one,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: but two glowing articles because of the money that he
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: had donated in the Harvard Crimson.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: So you have Vanity Fair and.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: The Harvard Crimson, the Harvard newspaper slobbering all over Jeffrey
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Epstein in two thousand and three.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So why the fuck.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Do we care what non politician Donald Trump sent as
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: a birthday card to Jeffrey Epstein in two thousand and three.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: By the way, you know who else sent a birthday
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: message in this batch, Bill Clinton, who had already been
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: President of the United States for two terms.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Bill Clinton.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: So the only difference really was the weird verbiage and
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the outline of the female figure, which I mean, which
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to me, given who Trump was in two thousand and three,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: is not a big deal. And I am absolutely in
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: the camp of those who believe that the text of
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: this birthday card does not, in any way, shape or
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: form read like something that Donald Trump would have written.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: First of all, I don't think it's.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Something any man would write to another man. It's just
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: weird and it's certainly not Donald Trump. And so I
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: do not understand why it is that the Trump side
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: of this has not emphasized the two thousand and three date,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: emphasized how Jeffrey Epstein was being treated among liberal elites
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: at that time, specifically Venity Fair, the Harvard Crimson and
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, and then I you know, to me, that
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: should end the story right there. This is but it's
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: just absolutely mind blowing to me that there are serious
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: people who think that somehow sending a birthday card to
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: someone in two thousand and three is relevant to whether
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: or not they knew or should have known that Jeffrey
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Epstein would end up being perceived as one of the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: worst child sex traffickers of all time, which we have
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: no idea if that's really even true. But I fully
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: acknowledge he was guilty, which is why he killed himself in.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: A federal prison.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: So but my theory on this, my theory on this
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: is that Trump forgot that he took part in this
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: birthday card. Now I don't know that anything that I'm
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: about to tell you is one hundred percent true, but
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: this is a story that actually makes sense to me.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: That makes a hell of.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: A lot more sense than any of the alternative explanations,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: which aren't even fully fleshed out.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: They don't even make any goddamn sense. So, you know,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: what was this?
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: This was all part of Trump covering up something that
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: no one else knew at this time, that Epstein was
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: this serial sexual abuser and sex trafficker, and that Donald
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Trump should have known something that Vanity Fair didn't know,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: that Harvard Crimson didn't know, that Bill Clinton didn't know,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: that the whole public didn't know. That's ridiculous. But here's
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: what I think probably happened. So I believe that Glene Maxwell,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: who's currently in prison for having enabling Epstein's crimes, I
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: think she got a raw deal.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: I think she didn't get a fair trial.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I think she was probably planning the birthday party. She
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: wanted to get birthday cards from very prominent friends of
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. She knew Donald Trump well, and I think
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: that she probably asked Trump whether he would participate. Trump
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: probably said sure. Maybe even Trump said, hey, why don't
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: you write something for me? Maybe she suggested, I'll even
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: write it for you, you can just sign it. This
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: is all speculation, but I don't I think it makes
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense here based upon the verbiage, which
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: is clearly written by a female to me, certainly not
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. And it's clearly written by somebody who has
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: familiarity with both Epstein and Trump, and Maxwell is really
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the only person that fits in that category. She writes
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: up the card, she gets Trump to sign it. This
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: happens in two thousand and three when the Wall Street
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Journal comes forward with this report. And remember Trump is
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: tired of this story. He's pissed off about this story.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: He doesn't want to have to deal with it, and
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: he doesn't remember participating, and the verbiage that he's he's
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: given by the Wall Street Journal reporters. Hey, you know,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: mister president, did you write this? Certainly doesn't sound like him.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: So if you don't remember, it's twenty plus years ago,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: you're Donald Trump. You get asked to do a billion
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: things in this kind of category, and it doesn't sound
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: like you, and you don't want it to have happened
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: because it's not good for you politically. I can totally
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: see Trump saying this didn't happen. And once Trump says
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: it didn't happen happened, he's basically in a corner and
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: all the people around him are in a corner because
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: when Trump says it didn't happen, you can't defend it.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: That's the stupidity of this stance that the Trump people
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: have taken, because to defend it is essentially to acknowledge
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: its authenticity. And the Boss has already said it didn't happen.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: So Trump's ego and maybe bad memory and wishful thinking
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: has put him his own side in a pickle here
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: in a corner. Because that's why they're not defending it.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: It's easily defensible for the reasons I've already given, but
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: they're not willing able to do that because they don't
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: want to piss off the boss, and the Boss Donald
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Trump is still, I believe, absurdly claiming that the birthday
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: card is fake, that he didn't participate in it. I
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: don't believe that, because that certainly appears to be his signature.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: There have been signature experts that have said that's his signature,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: and so, you know, the idea that it was faked
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: back in two thousand and three seems rather ludicrous. And
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: unless there's something really dramatic that we're missing, which is possible,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: but I don't anticipate it. Trump is wrong. Trump is
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: wrong about whether or not he participated in this. Now,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: to what level he participated, I don't know, because under
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: my theory, I don't think he actually wrote it.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I just think he signed off on it. Probably is
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: a joke.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the other part of this is that
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of this was supposed to be a joke.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: It's a fiftieth birthday party for a guy friend. That's
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: what guys do.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: So the idea that Trump had nothing to do with
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the actual verbiage of the card and doesn't remember it
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: or thought it was a joke.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Whatever.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: To me, is way more plausible than whatever the hell
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: the liberal media is the narrative is on this. And
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: it's very, very frustrating for me, as someone who doesn't
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: even like Trump, to see Trump getting attacked you for
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: something that I don't think he's culpable for and for
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: him to not fight back in the smartest way possible,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: all because he's stuck.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: For the reasons that I've already mentioned.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Now, there's another element that frustrates me about Trump's response
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: to this, because I actually think Trump understands this story
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: probably better than any other prominent figure, partially because he
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: knew Epstein well, partially because he knew Maxwell well, Partially
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: because he has been falsely accused of a lot of
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: things in this realm of sexual abuse, and he's he's
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: one of the very rare, huge public figures that's been
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: willing to take unpopular positions, not always cracked, but unpopular
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: positions when it comes to the issue of allegations of
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: sexual abuse. So Trump has pretty good instincts in general,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: but in this particular case, I think he has a
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: lot of knowledge and he keeps using the word hoax.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: In fact, he uses the phrase democratic hoax to describe
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: what's going on here, and he did so again when
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: he was asked a question almost i think literally during
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: last week's Epstein's survivor press conference. This is at the
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: White House, and here a reporter is asking him to
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: respond to what's happening in Washington, d C. With this
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: press conference of Epstein survivors and all the allegations that
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: they are making. And they want thing the so called
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Epstein list, which doesn't even exist.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: To be made public, and they may.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Try to create their own list, which is bizarre. But
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: regardless of all that, here was Trump being asked about
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: that press conference in the Oval Office, and he refers
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: to what is.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Happening as a democratic hoax.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Right now, there have been survivors of Jeffrey Epstein speaking
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: at a press conference on Capitol Hill. They're calling for
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: these case files, these doctors to be released. And Thomas Massey,
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: who is fuck who is sponsoring at destructure positions you'd
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: get the House to vote release of his documents, says
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: he doesn't be you're applicated in.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: These files, but many of your.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Friends and donors maybe, and he says that's why the
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: Justice trumpet is predacting them in slow walking their release.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: Are is the Justice Department protecting any friends.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: Or donors, sir?
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: So this is a Democrat hoax that never ends.
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: It reminds me a little of the Kennedy situation.
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: We gave him everything over and over again, more and
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: more and more, and nobody's ever satisfied.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Now, I agree with the essence of what Trump says there,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: that this narrative, as Epstein narrative, is in fact, in
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: large part a hoax, but it's not a democratic hoax,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: and maybe a decratic hoax now.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, the whole birthday card I.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Think is a democratic hoax, but he's you know, Trump
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: is unfortunately playing right into it. I said on Twitter
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: the other day that this, in this entire Epstein matter,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: you know, Trump is basically like that episode from Happy
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Days where Fonsi suddenly loses his cool power for those
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: that are older in the audience, and remember the TV
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: show Happy Days. I mean, normally he's very very good
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: at this stuff, and he keeps making missteps when it
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: comes to Epstein, like one begets the next and so
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I acknowledge that there are parts of this story right
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: now that are indeed a democratic hoax. But what bothers
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: me is he's not explaining, and neither is his press secretary,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: because she got asked the same question about what does
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: he mean by hoax? And the answer is extremely unsatisfactory
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: to me, because the proper answer here is pretty simple.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Epstein was guilty, and there was a moral panic surrounding
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: that when he killed himself in prison, and then a
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: series of circumstances have created a misimpression about what really
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: transpired here, and that the grand conspiracy theories surrounding Epstein.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Are in fact the hoax. That's the hoax part.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: But unfortunately for Trump, he'swilling or able to say that
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: partially maybe because that part of the hoax was largely
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: created by his own supporters. And that's the other part
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: of this that's not accurate in what Trump is saying.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: This part of the hoax, the essence of the hoax,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: of the Epstein hoax, was created by Magaworld, mostly during
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: the Biden administration. I think there's a lot of amnesia
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: and reverse engineering, and you know, I think a lot
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: of people aren't remembering their history very well as to
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: how this whole thing, you know, actually evolved. Yes, Epstein
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: was a big deal when he was arrested.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: It was not a national obsession.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until he, in my very strong opinion, killed
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: himself in prison that this thing really caught fire and
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: all the conspiracy theories flew, you know, flowed from that.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: It's very much like Jack Ruby killing Lee Harvey Oswell,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: which of course happened to him live national television, which
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: is a completely different animal as opposed to what happened
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: with Epstein.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But the idea that Ebstein must have killed.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Himself, even though there's no evidence of that, And now
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: we have Donald Trump, Bill Barr, Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: and Cash Mattel all very much on the record saying that.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: He actually committed suicide.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm one hundred percent convinced that he did commit suicide,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: have been for a very long time because we don't
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: have a goddamn suspect, which is the very least you
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: need even start to build that kind of a conspiracy theory.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: But that whole issue is key to understanding what happened,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: because after that we started to leave the gravitational pull
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: of the rational Earth on this story, and that's when Magaworld.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Once Trump was out of office and no longer in
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: charge of the prosecution of Epstein or the federal prison system,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: that's when Maga World started to build this fantasy. Helped
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: by a lot of right wing influencers and talk show
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: hosts who didn't know what the hell they were talking about.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: They created this myth, this hoax.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: And so now we basically have two hoaxes combined colliding
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: with one another because now everybody is incentivized. That's what's
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: so weird from a media perspective about the story. Everybody
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: is incentivized to buy into some level of hoax.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Here, the Maga world has egg all over their face.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: They're enraged.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: They don't want to believe that they were duped or
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: that they built this entire fantasy.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: So now they're desperate to save face. That's why they
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: keep wanting more and more information, because they got to find.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Something that makes them feel better about themselves, that justifies
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: their belief. As I've phrased it many times, in Santa Claus.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: They don't like the fact that they have been told
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: that Santa Claus does not exist, and so that's I
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: think driving a lot of their obsession, and I think
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of the right wing maga world commentator's obsession
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: with give.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Us something, give us something that.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: We can use as a fig leaf so that we
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: don't have to be humiliated that we were duped here.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: And then the left wing media now finally sees that
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Trump is vulnerable on this issue. They see blood in
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: the water. Now I don't think there's actual blood in
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: the water, because I think they're using ways of evaluating
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: this that are antiquated. So maybe ten to twenty years
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: ago would and clearly blood in the water, but not
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: in today's world and not with Trump. But they see
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: now as a way to get this whole story, as
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: a way to get Trump, and so now they're also
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: invested in this mythology, this hoax, of this grand conspiracy.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: And I am one.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Of basically, as far as I can tell, two public
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: commentators that have any kind of understanding of what really
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: happened here, that the Grand Conspiracy is not based in fact,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: it's not based in logic, it makes no sense, and
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: that everything that has happened is far more easily explained
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: in what I would call Occam's raiser, the simplest explanation
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: is usually the most valid. And the only other person
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: that I'm aware of who has been doing any sort
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: of contrarian commentary in this direction is a guy by
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: the name of Michael Tracy. Now, Michael Tracy is an
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: independent journalist, and he is online on x and on
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: his substack and stream has been saying very much what
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I have been saying. He and I are not in
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: total lockstep, which is going to become very very obvious
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: when you listen, especially to part two of our interview
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: together in the next episode of the podcast. But in
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the big picture, we both agree that the grand conspiracy
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: here doesn't make any sense. It's not based in facts
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: or logic.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: He even has I.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Think more questions about the level of Epstein's culpability and
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: guilt than I do, but that's a minor difference. But
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Michael Tracy decided that he was going to attend this
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: press conference, which was hosted by two members of Congress,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: one Democrat and one Republican. Thomas Massey, a guy who
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I used to like until this whole fiasco from Kentucky.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: He's a libertarian and sticks up against Trump, and Trump
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: has vowed to take him out because he has not
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: been loyal enough to Donald Trump, and I think that's
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: part of what has incentivized Massy. Everyone's self interest here
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: is completely fucked up. There's perverse self interests all over
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: the place. And so now Massey, because he's being attacked
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: by Trump, needs to appeal to the portion of MAGA
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: that's deeply invested in the entire Epstein mythology because he
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: needs them to support him in a primary on the
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Republican side in twenty twenty six. And I think that's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: probably what's a large and large part motivating Massy. But
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Tracy went to this press conference with all these alleged
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Epstein survivors and two members of Congress and other members
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: of Congress and survivor lawyers, and basically the entire situation
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: was to try to put media pressure on Congress to
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: release more information to get justice for the survivors. And
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Michael Tracy decided that he was going to go and
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: try to ask a legitimate question because everybody else of
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: the media is just lap dogs, just accepting this mythological
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: hoax narrative and nobody knows the basic facts of the case,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: which are completely contradictory to that narrative. And when Tracy
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: went to this press conference, he had a situation occur
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: that was incredibly reminiscent to me, because I myself have
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: been treated, I think even worse than Tracy was treated
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: at an event involving Matt Sandusky, which was not a
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: press conference, but where I didn't even get to.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Ask a question.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: All I did was sit at a public event with
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: a ticket in my name, exactly where I was told
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: to sit. And then Matt Sandusky got upset that I
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: was there was refusing to go on stage, and the
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: authorities told the police to get me off the premises,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: and they dragged me out of my seat and on
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the floor, roughed me up, and I got charged with
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: all sorts of bullshit that I could have spent allegedly
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: nineteen years in prison, and it costs me like six
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars to get out of the whole situation, including
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: a trip back to Pennsylvania. It was a total nightmare.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: It was an unbelievable injustice. Nobody in the media leapt
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: to my defense at all because they all thought, you know,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I'm a pedophile defender, and that Matt Sedusky is a saint,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: and so therefore there's no reason to can be concerned
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: about the journalistic issues involved here. For the state freedom issues, well, Mike,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: what happens with Michael Tracy is remarkably similar. And Tracy
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: asked a really good question about a topic that I
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: have discussed on this podcast many times, which is that
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: the key, and when I say key, I mean the primary,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: by far, most important accuser in this entire case of
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Virginia Geoffrey, that she does not have nearly the credibility
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: that the media pretends. And we know this for a
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: lot of reasons, but the most obvious, clear cut, smoking
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: gun reason is that she, on multiple occasions, accused Alan
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Dershowitz of sexually abusing her, and she was forced to
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: recant that.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: So she is acknowledged.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: She's dead now because she committed suicide earlier this year,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: but she had been forced to acknowledge that she made
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: a false allegation against a very very prominent, very very memorable.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Man in Alan Dershowitz.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Now that's not the only reason to question her credibility,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: but it's by far the most prominent, and it's the
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: most clean cut. It's the easiest to understand, and it's
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: the most difficult to explain if you're her defender. So
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Tracy goes to the press conference and asks a very
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: good question, very concise, very well put together, and immediately
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: those on the podium recognize Tracy and hear what he's
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: saying and where he's going, and.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: They immediately shout him down.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: They all say, don't answer, don't answer the question, don't
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: answer the question, I mean, which is a ridiculous response.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're there to answer questions about this case.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: It's more than a legitimate inquiry. And to me, their
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: reaction was very, very telling.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: But here is a clip.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: It's a little bit over two minutes long, and it's
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I believe this is from Michael Tracy's own audio. So
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: you're not going to hear what happens on the podium
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: that well, you'll get a little bit of sense of it.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: On the podium, it was far more dramatic than the
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: audio that you're about to hear. But this will give
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: you a sense from Tracy's perspective of what transpired when
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: he tried to ask a very important, very simple, very
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: relevant question, how he was not responded to, how other
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: media members.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Didn't do anything to defend him.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, in the old days, the news media would
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: understand and then even if they didn't agree with a question,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: that it was in their self interest to make sure
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: that all questions were answered in some way, shape or form,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: because if that's not the case, if you're not going
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: to answer somebody else's question, why are you gonna answer
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: my question? But we don't live in that world anymore.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: And you'll hear media members trying to change the subject,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: basically helping those on the podium avoid Michael Tracy's inquiry.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: And then you're gonna hear Michael Tracy being escorted away
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: on the orders of Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green, and.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Which is just ridiculous.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: We talked to Michael about this whole situation in which
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: you'll hear in just a moment, but you'll hear him
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: being threatened with arrest and he decides to go along
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: and walk away from this press conference without ever getting
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: his question answered.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: And here's what that sounded.
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: Like, mister Ebwick's right here, please, mister Edwicks. Yeah, so
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: you represented Forrigina Roberts Guffrey for many years.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: She eventually had to recant.
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: The allegations that she made against Alan Dershowitz. She alleged
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: that on at least six occasions she had been sex
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: traffick to Dershowitz. She recanted that question, and so why
• 39:13
  Speaker 5: is it that she should be regarded as credible in
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: this respect?
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: You're not gonna answer the question. Is that not a
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: fair question?
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: How did the victims feel about the interview that was
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: given to Glene Maxwell by Todd Blanche Why aren't you.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: Gonna answer that question? How's that an illegitimate question?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: We're good, guys, We're not good.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: They just devoted to my question. Don't care when.
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: You've talked in the past on MSNBC about the that's amazing.
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: Since of the Epstein birthday book, have you yourself, in
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: the course of litigation seen it?
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know that we're able to reveal
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: what we've seen.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: And what we have not seen by way of protective order.
• 39:46
  Speaker 6: But my point, being in that circumstance was if anybody
• 39:50
  Speaker 6: wants answers, there's an easy place to get it.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I told you where to get it.
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: I said, the estate of Jeffrey.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Epstein has it service of pine on them.
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: They'll turn it over, and if we had served you know,
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: in them in the past, they would have turned it over.
• 40:02
  Speaker 7: And we would have seen it, which I don't usually
• 40:04
  Speaker 7: miss subpoenas like that.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: So there we go.
• 40:07
  Speaker 8: Your question about the allegations, there's a simple answer, release
• 40:16
  Speaker 8: the files, I agree the American public instead.
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: Of But you and your college are talking about this
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: woman as though she has unblemish credibility. She made up
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: egregious allegations against a prominent individual, among others. She wrote
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: a memoir and then had to admit Edwards and his
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: other council had to admit it was the fictional Heights memoir.
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: He knows what I'm talking about.
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: That contained hugely salacious allegations that gets a whole host
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: of prominent individuals.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: So shouldn't you tell the public about this? He avoided
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: the question release. I agree, that is the answering question.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: I'm not interrupting. He just came and answered my question.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: Are you what are you doing? Are you kidding me?
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: Are you even stuff? Not confessional stuff?
• 41:08
  Speaker 6: What do you think I'm doing here? Bro connoisance given
• 41:14
  Speaker 6: for you know, I'm a turnalist, was inflator.
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: If you don't move with me, you're gonna be placed
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: on the arrest. Okay, Okay, I don't.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Know, have a great day.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: So when I saw that happen, I'm like, oh boy,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: you know, I certainly haven't understand how that feels.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: That that's very reminiscent to me.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: And I know Michael because I've actually appeared on his
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: show a couple of different occasions on different topics, including
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: this one, and so I was.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Very much aware of his position.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: He's very much aware of my position, and I figured,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I got to have him on the podcast,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: and I asked him to him on and he agreed
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: to do so. So a couple of days after this
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: entire fiasco, at this so called Epstein's Survivor press conference,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: I interviewed Michael Tracy and it went on for.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Almost two hours, which I did not anticipate.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: And a couple of disclaimers here before we play part
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: one of what we're now creating two parts of because
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: it's just too long. But I think this will actually
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: work out well. One of the disclaimers is that I
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: find Michael to be a frustrating character.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: I think that he's very smart and he's very good
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: But you're going to hear, In fact, I think you're
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: going to hear a couple of different times where Michael
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: is addressing my frustration with him, which you would not
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: have actually heard if he hadn't addressed it, because what
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: he's responding to is my facial expression of frustration when
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: he starts to get sideways and isn't as focused as
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: I would like. And so Michael is not particularly disciplined
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: in my opinion, when he tells his story, he likes
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to get bogged down in the minutia. He likes, I think,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: to show off how many names he knows. And I'm
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: a big picture guy. I'm a bottom line guy. I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: don't like to get you sidetracked. I try to be
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: as focused as possible, and I try to keep the
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: audience as much in mind.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Whether I'm doing an interview as the host.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Or I'm being interviewed as the guest, I'm always focused
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: on what is it that the audience needs to know
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: and making it compelling for them. I'm not sure Michael
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: looks at this the same way, and so this interview
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: is very odd because we are We're on the same
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: side essentially in this whole thing, and we're pretty much
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: the only two people who are on the same side
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: when it comes to public commentary, and a lot of
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: this interview is very good where Michael provides his perspective
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: on how he got into this situation, what happened at
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: the press conference, why a lot of the press conference
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: was a farce and a joke, and basically we're going
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: to cut it off after we stopped talking about the
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: press conference itself. So there's essentially two different parts to
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: this interview, the press conference and the issues related to
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: the press conference.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: And then in part two, we're going to get into
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: the big picture of this story, and that's when.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Things get really heated. I'm sure, way more heated than
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Michael ever anticipated, especially when it comes to the issue
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: of Epstein's suicide in a federal prison, because on that topic,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Michael and I disagree slightly. We don't even disagree dramatically.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Michael was just unwilling to say that Epstein killed himself,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: and I find this to be a source of great frustration,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: but that's for next week. Here is part one of
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: this two part interview with independent journalist Michael Tracy about
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: what happened when he went to this Epstein Survivor press
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: conference last week in Washington.
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: D C.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Michael Tracy, Welcome to the Death of Journalism podcasts.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: Always a pleasure, John, It's always.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Good to talk to you, and it's a very important
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: discussion we need to have because you were involved in
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: a very interesting way in the so called Epstein's survivor
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: press conference last week. We've already played a clip from
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: it where you tried to ask what I think was
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: a very relevant question and essentially got shout it down.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Before we get into that.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Incident specifically, give us just a little bit of background
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: as to why you have been focused so much on
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: the Epstein case and from what perspective. What do you
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: think people have been getting in general, especially in the
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: media and online wrong about this Epstein narrative.
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: Right, So, I guess by way of context, even broadening
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: it out from Epstein for a moment, I do find
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: myself compelled to dig into the unseemly details whenever there's
• 46:38
  Speaker 5: a consensus that emerges around a sexual harassment or sexual
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: misconduct style story that has something to meension with the
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: political arena, because oftentimes there's ideological blinders. As I'm sure
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: I don't have to explain to you that prevent people
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: from examining this stuff rationally use it to foment political
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: hysteria for whatever their.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: Expedient purpose is.
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: So one example is Andrew Cuomo in twenty twenty one,
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: he was forced to resign the governorship of New York
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: based on essentially a fabricated set of allegations that were
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: amplified strategically by his political enemies. And I never had
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: any particular affinity for Andrew Cuomo politically. In fact, I
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: covered him very negatively and critically in the past when
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: I did cover his tenure as governor. But there was
• 47:36
  Speaker 5: clearly a kind of an operation going on that this
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: guy Mamdani was kind of was involved in as a
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: member of Who's the New York Democratic mayoral nominee? He
• 47:47
  Speaker 5: was involved, you know, peripherally in the New York State
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: legislature kind of pushing this tactic to dislodge Quomo because
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: otherwise Almo was.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Not the only one. I mean, al Frankin got the
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: same treatment.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: I mean we yeah, But like I don't want to
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: get too bogged down, right, I don't understand I appreciate
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: your can Tara Reid.
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: The Biden thing I was no fan of Joe Biden,
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: but Tara Reid was just a made up story.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm with you on all that. So we
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: both have a contrarian mindset. But why have you been
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: so focused on Epstein?
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: And from what perspective?
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: Right? Okay?
• 48:26
  Speaker 5: So I had intermittently followed the Epstein story, probably since
• 48:31
  Speaker 5: early twenty fifteen when the first really salacious court filing
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: was publicized. It was called emotion for Joinder. It was
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: filed by Bradley Edwards, who was the MC at this
• 48:43
  Speaker 5: press conference last week in front of the Capitol, as
• 48:46
  Speaker 5: well as Paul Cassell, who was a former federal judge.
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: And that motion for jointerer was filed on behalf of Virginia,
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: Roberts Guffrey, who became the central accuser, the central purported victim,
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: the one who could have introduced a lot of the
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: mythological claims around Epstein that are now so widely believed today,
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: perhaps more people than ever believe them, given the prominence
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: of the story recently, and as time went on, every
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: now and then there would be a development around various
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: dimensions of the Epstein case. So you had ongoing litigation
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: for multiple directions involving Gallaine Maxwell, involving Epstein itself, involving
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: allegations that other prominent people might have been involved in
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: certain sordid activities, and more and more like whenever I
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: would kind of revisit the story, there would be more
• 49:38
  Speaker 5: and more grounds for skepticism in my mind as to
• 49:41
  Speaker 5: how to conceptualize what was really going on here, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 5: that I think came to a head in particular in
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: twenty twenty two. Now, I didn't closely follow the Gallaine
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: Maxwell trial when it was ongoing. I wish I had.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: This was in November and December of twenty twenty one,
• 49:59
  Speaker 5: because even as a casual observer, I sent something was off.
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: I didn't comment on it though really publicly at the time,
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: but you know, privately, I would just kind of mention
• 50:09
  Speaker 5: to people my intuition. But if I'm not well versed
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: in something, I don't necessarily want to just spout off
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: in public, right, So I didn't cover it that closely.
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: And but then it came to head in twenty twenty two,
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: because that's when this Dirshowitz defamation lawsuit culminated or was resolved,
• 50:24
  Speaker 5: whereby Virginia Opera was good Fray again the central accuser.
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: I mean people say there are over a.
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: Thousand victims or something now as though, and people try
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: to say that to me when I emphasize the centrality
• 50:36
  Speaker 5: of Virginia Roberts good Frey, they'll say, oh, what does
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: it matter if she might have some credibility problem. Look,
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: they're these this whole other universe of victims, but they
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: all stem from her. I mean, she's the one who
• 50:47
  Speaker 5: gave rise to this whole thing and kind of created
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: the contours around which subsequent victims kind of emerged. And
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: she actually personally lobbied for the Lurchship.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Let me, Michael, let me stopu the evers. Yeah, because
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I need people to be reminded. This is the woman
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: who accused Prince Andrew. This is the person who, by far,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: and you make an incredibly important point which I have
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: found in every case I've ever investigated, there's no more
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: important accuser than the first and most prominent one, because
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: everything else flows from that. If people see blood in
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: the water, then it is the possibility there's the possibility
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: for less than credible, maybe even fake accusers.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: She is the person who a.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Few months ago, apparently or allegedly was involved in a
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: bus accident and then not soon after that she killed herself.
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: So I'm sorry, that's what we're told.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Well, what do you believe happened there?
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't have a belief job, But let
• 51:48
  Speaker 5: me just clarify something. I'll get into that in a minute,
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: but just to clarify something for Genia Roberts, Coufre was
• 51:53
  Speaker 5: actually not chronologically the first accuser related to jeff Repsten.
• 51:58
  Speaker 5: She was the first accuser who introduced these sprawling sex trafficking.
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: And blackmail allegations.
• 52:03
  Speaker 5: So she was the first accuser for that aspect of
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: the Jeffrey Epstein allegations. There had been earlier accusers on
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: various other sort of tracks having to do within but
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: she's the one who breathed such her fervid life into it.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, without her, Michael, we're not talking about that, correct, correct? Okay,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: So that's what I mean by that, And so so
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: go back, So you realized that through the Dershowitz story
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: that Jeffrey is not credible or at least has credibility problems,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: and so take us down the path that you were
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: going down at that time.
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: Right, because people who need to understand what happened with
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: that Dershowitz lawsuit resolution. It was incredibly brutal litigation that
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: stretched on for years. It originated in early twenty fifteen
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: when Dershowitz s got sued by Bradley Edwards, representing Goufray
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: because once that for Jointer came out and Dershowitz was
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: accused of committing heinous child sex crimes, Dershowitz came out
• 53:05
  Speaker 5: and vigorously denied the validity of the allegations. He says
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: that he said that he would be vindicated, that he
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: would pursue this to the fullest extent of the law
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: that was available to him. He would provide dispositive an
• 53:19
  Speaker 5: evidence showing that he couldn't have possibly been at the
• 53:22
  Speaker 5: places he was accused to have been when he allegedly
• 53:26
  Speaker 5: sexually victimized Goufrey.
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: He said that she was a liar, she was a fabricator,
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera.
• 53:33
  Speaker 5: And when he issued those strident denials, he was then
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: sued for defaming Virginia Roberts Gouffrey by calling her a liar,
• 53:40
  Speaker 5: but he established that she made it all up. Eventually,
• 53:43
  Speaker 5: after eight years of torturous litigation, with a really intense
• 53:47
  Speaker 5: discovery really, you know, every motion under the sun. It
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: was very, very, very intensive litigation. So it wasn't just
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: like they you know, this out These accusations were dangling
• 53:57
  Speaker 5: out there, and after a while people came to their
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: senses and decided to come to a resolution.
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: Toe it was like a.
• 54:02
  Speaker 5: Brutal you know, brutal law fair that was raging for
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: nearly a decade, and Dershwitz prevailed and a chief exactly
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: what he said that he wanted to achieve, which is
• 54:12
  Speaker 5: to just get an admission from this person that he
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: had not committed these crimes.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: And just to make sure people understand how significant this
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: is because of Goofree's significance to the larger conspiracy element
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: of the story, she claimed, I believe laughably that she
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: mistook Alan Dershowitz or misidentified him on multiple occasions. I
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: don't believe that's even theoretically possible, given who Alan Dershowitz is.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: And to me, you know, this is a massive hit
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: to someone's credibility. There's also problems with her story involving
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Prince Andrew, and so if you don't believe her, then
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: it becomes much more difficult to believe this larger grand conspiracy,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: the narrative, which is Epstein was blackmailing all sorts of
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: rich and powerful people and that that was why he
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: was murdered in prison.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: And you know, and that's.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Why we're still talking about this today, because this story
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: is much much larger than just one horrific a child
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: sex abuser, which I believe Epstein is because he acknowledged
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: that he was, he pleaded guilty, that he I believe
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: he killed himself. So that's why this is significant. So right,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: So tell us then, what happens in your evolution of
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: your involvement in this story.
• 55:36
  Speaker 5: Well, and there's a million other data points that could
• 55:39
  Speaker 5: give you that undercut fatally for Ginda Roberts, who praise credibility,
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: and I knew a bunch.
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: I knew much of this.
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: After that, the July sixth, twenty twenty five doj FBI
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: memo came out on behalf of the second Trump administration,
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: announcing that they had conducted some kind of supplementary investigation
• 55:58
  Speaker 5: into the Epstein now and had concluded that there was
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: no quote unquote client list, that there was no there
• 56:05
  Speaker 5: were no additional third party individuals against whom any further
• 56:11
  Speaker 5: charges could be predicated that they Even if you read
• 56:16
  Speaker 5: that memo closely, they sort of reprimand people who might
• 56:20
  Speaker 5: feversly speculate about some kind of larger conspiratorial element here they.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: And basically they are.
• 56:29
  Speaker 5: The memo essentially asserts that there's no further action to
• 56:32
  Speaker 5: be taken with respect to Epstein after people in the
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: Trump administration, not quite so much Trump himself, but definitely
• 56:39
  Speaker 5: his underlings and boosters who had been on the podcast
• 56:42
  Speaker 5: circuit as private citizens like Cash Hotel, Dan Bungano especially,
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: but also others just in the general right wing kind
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: of mill u had been putting.
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: You know, Donald Trump Junior said stuff like this. JD.
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: Vance occasionally would talk about it.
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: But so there was this whole orbit of people who
• 57:00
  Speaker 5: had been amping up their followers and generating lots of
• 57:06
  Speaker 5: anticipation about how if you voted in Donald Trump in
• 57:09
  Speaker 5: twenty twenty four, he would defeat the deep state. Right
• 57:12
  Speaker 5: he would have these this Avengers team behind him with
• 57:15
  Speaker 5: RFK Junior and Tulca Gabbard and all this crap. And
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: one of the natural consequences of him vanquishing the deep
• 57:22
  Speaker 5: state would be to unearth the hidden Epstein files, including
• 57:27
  Speaker 5: the quote unquote client list was I think was kind
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: of just invented by right wing podcasters as a concept.
• 57:33
  Speaker 5: Like it's only a few years old that there was
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: supposedly some kind of client list. I don't even know,
• 57:37
  Speaker 5: Like it's hard to even tell where exactly that notion
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: came from because the people who were actually have been
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: a long term involved in the case never asserted that,
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: like Bradley Edwards, this lawyer has never asserted that there
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: was some kind of consolidated list. It was kind of
• 57:50
  Speaker 5: an invention of like just media entrepreneurs. But anyway, when
• 57:55
  Speaker 5: that membo came out, there was a huge uproar, right
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: and the immediate assumption right everywhere in between was that
• 58:03
  Speaker 5: this must show that there's some gigantic cover up and
• 58:05
  Speaker 5: now Trump was in on it. Like a week or
• 58:08
  Speaker 5: so after that memo came out, there was this Turning
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: Point USA conference in Orlando.
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: That's Charlie Kirk's organization.
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: It's basically like a conventional conservative youth oriented organization.
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: It's like Seapack Junior or something that he runs.
• 58:23
  Speaker 5: And you had people appearing at that conference speaking on
• 58:25
  Speaker 5: the stage saying Donald Trump has covered up a giant
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: child rapist ring. It was Dave Smith, this guy that's
• 58:33
  Speaker 5: the guy who said it, and like the crowd collapsed
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: like Lemmings. And this is like a Republican event, right,
• 58:38
  Speaker 5: So something crazy was going on where they were willing
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: to accuse at a Republican event Donald Trump not just
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: they weren't just like criticizing him for some policy, right,
• 58:47
  Speaker 5: they were accusing him of doing something that would be
• 58:51
  Speaker 5: among the worst things that any president could ever do, right,
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: which is cover up child rape. And so like there
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: had to be some corrective offered, and I undertook that
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: myself because nobody else was doing. Nobody else was willing
• 59:02
  Speaker 5: to withstand the pushback that they would get. Where you're
• 59:07
  Speaker 5: I'm constantly called the pedophile twenty four to seven, or
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: if like everybody's saying that the FBI needs to come
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: check my hard drives, etcetera, etcetera. So I must have
• 59:14
  Speaker 5: some sinister personal motive for doing this.
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: And you know, I'm the only.
• 59:18
  Speaker 5: One who seems to I mean, John, tell me if
• 59:20
  Speaker 5: it's somebody else out there, because I'm the only one
• 59:22
  Speaker 5: that I've run across who has a command of the
• 59:24
  Speaker 5: facts and evidence such that when I see bs being spewed,
• 59:28
  Speaker 5: whether it's in the alternative media like a podcast sphere,
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: or on the main more mainstream media, or among politicians.
• 59:33
  Speaker 5: I can actually refute it or show why it's a
• 59:36
  Speaker 5: distortion or misleading, but nobody else can do it. Nobody
• 59:38
  Speaker 5: else seems to have the motivation, so they just that
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: dynamic just allows a moral panic and mass hysteria to
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: proliferate unfettered. And I really dislike that because mass panic
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: inevitably a bridges civil liberties. We can get into it,
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: but there's a million different examples of how this Epstein
• 59:54
  Speaker 5: stuff has abridged core constitutional liberties. It catalyzes the collapse
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 5: of journalistic standards because nobody thinks they have to even
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 5: check basic facts or evidence because everybody's just on already
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: on the same page, right, So if there's you don't
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 5: have any expectation that anybody's gonna be challenging you. You
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: become much more lazier, much more lazy and cavalier with
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: the facts. And also it's breeding what I consider to
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 5: be a rampant misdiagnosis of actual political problems, where now
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 5: everybody's viewing like US foreign policy through the prism of
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 5: the assumed existence of this massive sexual blackmail ring that
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: must be pulling the strings in terms like on Trump
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: or whomever. And that's just nonsense. So there's a real
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 5: world political impacts I find and it even has come
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: to a head in the past week because Thomas Massey
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 5: and Rocanna, who I otherwise had some admiration for, just
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: as legislators, they're sort of unusual or idiosyncratic members of Congress.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: Thomas Massey's one of the extraordinarily few Republicans who it
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: doesn't just buckle to Trump on command.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: And Rocana, uh, you know, he could be a little
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: bit of a gadfly.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 5: And then within the Democratic caucus and he'll at least,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: you know, he engages with ideological diverse media. I've done
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 5: interviews with him. He'll go on right wing podcasts and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 5: so forth. So he gets out of the Democrat dem bubble.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: And now they're they're sullying themselves by pushing this mythology.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 5: They they've aligned with Bradley Edwards, the extortionist lawyer, and
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 5: you know, and so there's has to be some corrective
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: and if I'm in a.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: Position to do it, I'll do it.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, Oh, you're getting a little ahead of yourself in
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: the timeline of the story here, but I certainly empathize
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: with your position because I've been in it myself many
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: many times. And I think politically what you're describing, and
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: this is very relevant to getting us to the press
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: conference or whatever you want to call it that occurred
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: last week where you were eventually escorted away from the proceedings,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: is that we have a very unique set of circumstances politically,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: which you somewhat described there, and that is that this story,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: at least during the Biden administration, was largely driven by Maga.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: Maga became completely.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Invested in this idea of Epstein as this mastermind of
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: this incredibly vast conspiracy where all the liberal elites were
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: sexually abusing underage girls and somehow getting away with it
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: never being sued, and that there was this Epstein list,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: and the left wing media was never all that interested
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: in it until they started to see blood in the
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: water when it came to Trump's potential culpability. So now
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: you have both sides weirdly invested, and in my opinion,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: we have a massive audience for this what I think
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: is a mythology of the Epstein story, and there are
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: people desperate to give the audience what they want to hear.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: It is an audience in search of a narrative, or
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: at least a justification for the narrative.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: That they have selected.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: And so, because this story will not and you've already
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: mentioned the two congress people want a Democrat and want
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: a republic and Thomas Massey, who I used to respect
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: too before this, a libertarian from Kentucky, they decide to
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: take part in this Epstein survivor hastily put together quote
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: unquote press conference in Washington, d C. Last week, and
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: you decide to attend it. Now as you were planning
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: on attending whatever you want to call this, and I
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: hesitate to use the phrase press conference because I don't
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: think it deserves the term press conference.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: Especially it was a press conference. It was a flawed
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: press conference, but it was still a press cost.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, whatever, whatever you want to describe it. As you
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: were preparing for this, what were your goals, what was
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: your strategy, and what was your expectation?
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: Right, So it wasn't I wouldn't say it was hastily convened.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: I heard this, I heard about this. You know, almost
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 5: a month ago. That's when it was announced by Rocanna
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: and Nazi. And if they put out a press release,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: I want to say it was mid August sometime.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: And did they picked this date because the first I
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: heard about it was one day before, but okay, I
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: knew about it for weeks, all right, Well, fine, whatever,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: it certainly appeared to be hastily put together because it
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: didn't appear to be very well organized. But fine, however
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: long ago it was organized, what would give me the
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: answer to your question?
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 5: Because you got to remember, I mean they flew you know,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: they flew in women. You know, they threw in so
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 5: called survivors from around the country, maybe even the world,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure, but definitely from around the country.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: So there had to be some advanced notice for that.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: Just logistically, well, I mean, Donald Trump, before the debate
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: with with Hillary Clinton, was somehow able to get every
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: Clinton accuser in the world the Saint Louis a day.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: And a half after the access.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: Hollywood money of Broderick.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know how the hell that happened. I've always
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: been mystified by that. But let's not get sidetracked, as
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: often happens with you, Michael I don't care when the
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: thing was planned answer my question.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 5: My thinking going into it, Okay, well, I mean when
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 5: I was preparing for it, you know, I was. My
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 5: goal was to be able to ask a question, in
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: particular to Bradley Edwards, who is a hugely central player
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 5: in this entire Epstein saga. So for him to be
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 5: made available in a public press conference type setting, I
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 5: thought would be a valuable opportunity.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: Why is he so important? Why is he so important?
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 5: Because he was basically Epstein's longest term arch legal antagonist.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 5: As a lawyer in Florida, he started filing claims essentially
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: against Epstein in two thousand and eight, right around just
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 5: after Epstein first pleaded guilty to two state level charges
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: in Florida in June two thousand and eight. And it
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: was Edwards who kind of cooked up this whole theory
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 5: that the government had violated the Crime Victims' Rights Act
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 5: in two thousand and eight, which was a fairly new statute.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 4: It had only been sign into law by George W.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 5: Bush in two thousand and four, and Bradley Edwards wanted
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 5: to find some way to essentially go after Epstein in
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 5: the wake of this plea agreement or not prosecution agreement
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 5: that entailed him pleading guilty to state level charges in
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 5: exchange for no federal indictment. And he just kind of
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: dove into the vour types of Epstein from there, and
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 5: he represented it was.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: Stray what were your goals and what was your strategy and.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: Expectation again, so my goals were to be able to
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 5: ask Edwards some pointed questions that I would imagine he's
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 5: never been asked before. So here were some I wish
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 5: I had an hour with them or longer, but I
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: knew I would have to probably prioritize, and I didn't
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: know how exactly the press conference was going to be structured.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 5: But it turns out it turned out that he was
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 5: essentially orchestrating the press conference. Like Massey and Kanna, they
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 5: delivered some remarks, but they kind of stepped aside. Right,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 5: it was Bradley Edwards who was running it, supposedly on
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 5: behalf of the purported victims, because we're supposed to stand
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: back and honor the victims, right, and he's their legal representative,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 5: and so you know, among the things I would have
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 5: asked him, and I'm not gonna I don't want to
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: get too bogged down on this because I could drone
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 5: on forever, which I know you enjoy. But like, for example,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 5: Edwards had this whole situation early on in his conflict
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: with Epstein, where the law firm that Edwards worked at
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 5: was owned or founded by this guy, Scott Rothstein, who
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 5: had hired Edwards, and Rothstein not long into Edward's employment
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 5: at this law firm, absconded to the United States, fled
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: literally to Morocco because he did legal research in the
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 5: fact that the Morocco didn't have an active What does.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: This to do with it?
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: What the hell does this have to do with the
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: Nepstein narrative.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 5: I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I'll tell you. And
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: it turned out that Rothstein was running a Pozzi scheme.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 5: He was charged with running a Ponzi scheme. It was
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 5: considered to be the second largest Ponzi scheme in US
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 5: history at the time after Bernie made off. And the
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 5: Ponzi scheme was about enticing wealthy investors to invest in
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: his firm because he said, we have settlement money coming
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 5: in from prominent people who have been charged with sexual misconduct,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: including sexual misconduct against miners and He used Epstein as
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: one of his examples of somebody who's gonna be paying
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 5: out big settlement money, So these investors should have get
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: invested and will get a piece of it later. And
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 5: Bradwords was Bradley Edwards was the one furnishing the investigatory
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 5: materials to to uh Rothstein. So essentially there was like
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 5: fraud at the beginning of this whole Epstein saga. That
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: might have been difficult to distill into a question to Edwards.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 5: But there's other weird stuff. Yeh, yeah, there's other weird stuff.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, for example, naming people don't people don't know that's true,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: You're you're too far afield.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: That's that would have been question.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you didn't ask that question because that
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: would have been just ridiculously.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 5: I know, I agree, I agree. Maybe for an hour
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 5: long thing I could have done it. But for instance,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 5: also in his book, in his book, Bradley Edwards admits
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 5: he was an FBI in format He was a confidential
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 5: FBI in format He participated in an FBI staying against
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: Epstein's former houseman who worked at the house in Palm
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: Beach to put him in prison.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: So Edwards could get the so called.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 5: Little Black Book that he then gave to Gawker or
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 5: a journalist who later brought it to Gawker. So this
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: guy's an FBI informant. He admits in this book that
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 5: he's never sought seeing evidence of any real blackmail operation
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 5: that Epstein ran, and he'd be the last guy to
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 5: admit that if there was evidence of it. And there
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 5: are a few other things. But what I've determined was,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 5: if I have one question, I'm going to ask of
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 5: it for Judi. Robert Kuffrey, whom Bradley Eppers was representing
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 5: all the way through, like from twenty fourteen onwards when
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 5: that first salacious motion was filed that named Dershowitz and
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 5: Prince Andrew, and he was also representing her along with
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 5: David Boys because there was like a legal consortion that
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 5: got set up when she recanted the claims against Dershowitz. So,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 5: in terms of a narrow, crisp concise question, I just
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 5: wanted him to address how we should now why should
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 5: why is it that we should think of her as
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 5: a credible person in light of that recantation. Because at
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 5: this press conference, John, every speaker was hailing this woman
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: as though she was some truth telling martyr, like she
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: was a saint. I'm telling you, they're going to beatify
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 5: her like the Catholic Church. Bradley Edwards declared that she's
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 5: an American hero. Everybody, you know, it's like again, it's
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 5: it's like she was. You know, she's on the pantheon
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 5: of historic heroes now and if nobody does any kind of.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: Counteractual let's be clear, almost everybody at that press conference
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: has made a ton of money because of her. I mean,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: right of course, right to them, to them, she is
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: a saint.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Oh that's a good point. Yeah, I agree.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you ask what I think is a really
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: good question.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: I was proud of you.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: I was a little surprised you were able to be
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: as focused as you were, because focus.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: Really isn't your forte.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 5: And well, in that kind of context, I can focus, John,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: Come on, I'm not that much an idiot.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: All right. Well, you asked a good question, and the
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: response to me.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: Was incredibly telling because they didn't even try to respond.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: In fact, they mocked your question. There was an immediate
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: response from the people in the podium, don't answer, don't answer, like,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: oh my, a freak out of Oh my god, we
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: can't even possibly dignify this very sensible question with a
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: response this we have a blestphemer here, a blasphemer.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: That's what it felt like. It felt like a scene
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: Fron from Mondy Python.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 4: Crucify him, crucify him.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: Right, crucify him a bass black, get the blasphemer. And
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: so you don't get an answer now before we get
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: to what happens to you next, what is your analysis
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: of the way they responded to your question.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 5: And just for your information, I was not trespassing at
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 5: the SPRITS conference. I was expressly invited to attend by
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 5: Rocanna's staff, so I was duly admitted as a member
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 5: of the press, so they couldn't like try to claim
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 5: that I was some kind of interloper or whatever.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: I was away to be there.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: If you're probably Michael as you're probably aware, and I
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: know the listeners of this podcast are where.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: I was once literally arrested.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: And charged when I had a ticket in my own
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: name to go to an event for a Sandusky accuser.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I didn't even ask a question. So I've
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: been treated way, way, way worse than what you're about
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: to describe in a very similar situation. But tell me
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: your your analysis, or give me your analysis of the
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: way they responded and did not respond to your very
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: reasonable question.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 5: Well, let me give you some background context as to
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 5: why they reacted to the way they did.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: No, this is relevant, John, don't you have relaxed? All right?
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: We're all good.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 5: There was a what they called like some kind of
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 5: survivor's rally in the same little area in front of
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 5: the capital that preceded the official press conference with Rocanna,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 5: Thomas Massey, and Edwards. Right, So other survivors had already
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 5: spoken at this event, and I had gone around interviewing
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 5: a bunch of them, or attempting to, and quickly many
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 5: of them determined that they did not want to answer
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 5: my questions. Like Annie Farmer, who testified at the Maxwell
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 5: trial in twenty twenty one as advocating on behalf of
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 5: her lunatic sister Maria, who's basically just a hallucinatory, crazed
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 5: person who's now suing the FBI for six hundred million dollars.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 5: I tried to interview this woman, Teresa Helm. I'm not
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 5: sure if he was actually at the later press conference,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 5: but I know I definitely tried. I definitely interviewed Hailey Robson,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 5: who was identified by Julie K. Brown, the author of
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: that Miami Herald series in twenty eighteen that reef new
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 5: life of Epstein story and harnessed the power and culturally
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 5: politically of me too and everything, and she claims that
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 5: it catalyzed federal prosecutors to reprosecute Epstein federally. In Julie
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 5: Kate Craig Brown's book, she says, this woman, Hailey Robson
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 5: was basically the top recruiter for Epstein in the Palm
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 5: Beach area of teenage girls and would tell them to
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 5: lie about their ages of meaning, tell girls who might
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 5: not have been eighteen to lie to Epstein and say
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: they were eighteen. And the girls then did that at
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 5: Hailey Robson's direction, and she was there just has some
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 5: kind of generic survivor. Now right, she's recast herself where
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 5: of course she wants to get a piece of the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 5: settlement money. So now she's just a victim or a survivor.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 5: Where she didn't realize that for years and years and
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 5: years until until she did like come up some kind
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 5: of intense therapy or something, and so I had talked
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 5: to her.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: I was respectful with her. I tried to be respectful
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: with all these people.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: I'm not trying to necessarily be overly egregious or pratuitous
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: and how I.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 4: Questioned them, But she knew she didn't like me.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 5: She spotted me any farmer who's also behind the podium.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 5: She recognized me, and that's why they didn't even let
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 5: me get a word in an edgewise.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 4: Right. They immediately sort of like stoked a frenzy.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 5: If you'll see the video, They kind of like start
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 5: whispering at Bradley Edward saying, don't answer that.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: I'm answer that he obliges.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 5: And then they brushed me off, right, and then Rocanna
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 5: that actually who I know, intercedes and attempts to answer
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 5: my question. I asked him a follow up question. At
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 5: that point, the police escort me out. But just because
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: we can get in more detail on that, But my
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 5: reaction is, I think I kind of finally sort of
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 5: blew a hole through some of the consensus here. Not
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: that that was like my conscious motive, like I was
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 5: just I was constantly motivated to do what I would
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 5: do in any other context, but just like applying basic
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: journalistic scrutiny to the story, and then seeing how that
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 5: was received in such an irrational way, where like a
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 5: mob was ginned up, Marjorie Taylor Green commanding the police,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 5: Capitol Police over whom she has jurisdiction as a member
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 5: of Congress, to expel me for simply because she didn't
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 5: like the content of the question. I mean, even people
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 5: who like might have been inclined to disagree with me
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: or to be skeptical of my roughly speaking take on
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 5: all this, they then they had to kind of at
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 5: least recognize that there was something amiss here, right so,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 5: and that that's like basically the reaction I've seen from
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 5: people who have publicly commented on this since since last week.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: If we lived in irrational world, your very rational question
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: and the irrational response to it would have had all
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: the other media members that were there turn on a
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: dime and be.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa?
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 7: Wait not for some solidarity solidarity among journalists, right you think.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: There would have been There would have been questions following
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: up on why you won't respond to that question? There
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: would have there would have been an extreme amount of
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: skepticism among the media that would have been immediately created
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: and would have been acted on. But of course we
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: don't live in that world anymore, especially when it comes
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: to this kind of a topic. The news media is
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: just a bunch of lap dogs for this ridiculous and
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: absurd narrative that they have bought into, where you are
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: the one fly in the ointment, You're the one contrarian
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: willing and able to be there to ask a legitimate question.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: And instead of the scenario that I outlined that would
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: have occurred in a rational world, we live in this
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: upside down world where as you've already implied, a Republican
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: member of Congress, Marjorie Taylor Green orders the Capitol police.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: To have you escorted away.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 7: Tell me about that, and the mainstream media otherwise despises
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 7: Marjorie Marjorie Tayler Green, Right, she's like the biggest MAGA
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 7: flunky to them, who they always want to show as
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 7: doing something stupid or discrediting because it will refrect badly
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 7: on Trump and Maga, et cetera.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 4: But here she would literally she's on video, it's not disputable.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 5: You could see her pointing to the Capitol Police and
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 5: directing them to forcibly remove me from the press conference
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 5: because she did not like the content of the question.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 5: And she's got no very little pushback at all for
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 5: this from what I've seen. I mean, I think people
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 5: just accepted and move on because there's still such an
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 5: overwhelming consensus around this issue that it's assumed I must be.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 4: Wicked for having even asked the question that I did, because.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: Even members of the news media. Let's be clear, there's
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: two things going on here. Number One, the vast majority
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: of not all, of the news media is catastrophically IgG
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: ignorant about the basic facts of the case.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: That's number one.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: And number two, they all either love the current narrative
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: or see no self interest in debunking the current narrative.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: Am I correct on those two points?
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 5: More or less they see it as something they can
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 5: use for fodder against Trump. So that's what dominated the
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 5: questions at the press conference. Naturally, basically, let's just like
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 5: get our our daily Trump cheap shot quota. And look,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 5: I'm not against getting in some cheap shots against Trump
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 5: necessarily where it's warranted, but it was just way disproportionate
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 5: in terms of the emphasis.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 4: And there's an.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 5: Interesting dynamic here where in the modern media environment. Sometimes
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 5: there could be pushback or dissension that the media will
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 5: eventually recognize or at least be able to become conscious of.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 5: Among the alternative media, like the podcast social media, et
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 5: cetera crowd who will criticize if the media is doing
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 5: something that they find to be disreputable. But here the
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 5: podcast all media social media crowd are essentially in line
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 5: with the mainstream media. So like CNN is Jeffrey Epsteen
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 5: in Central twenty four to seven, where they have total
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 5: credulity towards these purported victims, and the same is true
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 5: in much of the podcast sphere and the podcast Fear.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 5: They tend to emphasize more of like oh, this must
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 5: be some kind of intelligence agency thing, or it involves
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 5: Israel or whatever is that they have a limit maybe
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 5: slightly different emphasies, but they're essentially united on the core elements.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: Everybody has their own self interest. In this case it's different,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: but everyone has a self interest in maintaining this ridiculous
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: conspiracy narrative. And I want to circle back to that,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: but let's just finish your part of this story. So
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: you get escorted away, you don't fight at all, You
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: go ahead and walk away.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: Did you think about fighting?
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 5: You know what, John, I've learned. If I was nineteen,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 5: I probably would have fought. But as I've matured emotionally,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 5: I've realized that once al police officer issues a command
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 5: and tells me I will be arrested if I do
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 5: not comply, I will comply and then deal with it afterwards.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 4: Right, I'm not really a.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: Smart way to do it. I did not fully comply.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't resist, but I just I was basically dead
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: weight and I was abused by police. I was charged
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: with resisting arrest, which was ridiculous.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: I was charged with all sorts of different things.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: I could have spent nineteen years in prison, cost me
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: about six thousand dollars to get it all thrown away
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: because it was the most ridiculous charges of all time.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 4: Where was this?
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: This was in Pennsylvania at a Matt Sandusky speaking engagement
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: where I had a ticket in my own name to
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: attend this event and sat where I was told to sit,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: just sitting there, and Matt Sandusky refused to start the
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: event because he knew I was there and was terrified
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: of me. And I guarantee what happened was that Matt said,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: I'm not speaking if Ziggler is there and the people
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: that were in.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: Charge of the event panicked and had police.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: This pulled me out of my chair and drag me
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: literally out of the place, and so you probably made
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: the right decision, even though instinctually I probably would have
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: fought for my right to be there and to ask
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: questions and to make a little bit more of a stake.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 5: I wasn't gonna physically fight, like if they're introducing physical force,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 5: meaning you have to like they put their hands on
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 5: may not violently, but they were like escorting me out right,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 5: So I'm not going to resist their physical force that
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 5: they've applied to me. Yeah, if they're just like very
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 5: very early on, I have the audio that I posted this,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 5: they say, hey, you got to go or whatever, and
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 5: that's that's the point at which I would I was
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 5: trying to question them as to what grounds they could
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 5: have for trying to haul me out, But once they
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 5: enter into a physical sort of phase and are using
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 5: force to remove me, then I'm just gonna comply, because
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 5: I don't even want to get into a situation where
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 5: we have to like granularly analyze like who took what
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 5: physical act. You know, it's just not worth it. It's
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 5: not what I want to focus on.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: So you were just escorted away and you were not
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: charged with anything, not arrested.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 5: They just they just escorted me out, you know, beyond
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 5: just beyond the perimeter that had kind of been sort
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 5: of gated off in the I don't want to leave
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 5: this because this is absolutely outrageous.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: This is a press conference that you have been invited
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: to by one of the people, a congress person, yea
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: Democratic congress person, who has helped running this event, helped
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: organize this event. You are invited to be there. All
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: you did was ask a very rational question. You didn't curse,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: you didn't you didn't even say anything negative about anybody
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: on the podium. You did nothing wrong, and a maga
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: member of Congress orders the Capitol police have you escorted
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: out now.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 5: And then and then everybody cheers, The survivors all cheer,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, the survival like the quote to quote survivors
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 5: were also calling for me to be thrown out, and
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 5: Marjorie Taylor Green kind of like joins in with them
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 5: and says, yeah, throw them out, But like the Capitol
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 5: police take orders from her, right the co members of
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 5: Congress are the ones who have jurisdiction over the Capitol Police.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 4: Now, and if you look at the video Rocanna.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 5: Who knows I've been invited, at his sort of behest,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 5: you could see him trying to like motion to the
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 5: coup police, No, you don't have to throw him out,
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 5: but he gets overwhelmed by the mob that's been riled
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 5: up by Marjorie Taylor Green and like the rabid survivors.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: Now, because of all the perverse self interests in this
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: situation where MAGA world is invested and liberal media is
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: invested because of the they think this is bad for Trump,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: you have no support in remotely rational word as usual. Well,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: believe me, I've been there many times myself, maybe even
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: a worse situations than this. You have no support because
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: there's no one who has incentivized.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: A rally to your cause.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: Like, for instance, had you been a MAGA reporter and
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: a clarly liberally biased event and had been taken out,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: you would have been on every right wing you know,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: podcast and independent media program that there is, because you
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: would have been.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: Hailed as a hero.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: But because everybody is incentivized, much like you know, children
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: with Santa Claus in believing in this mythology, there's no
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: one who has a self interest to come to your support,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: and of course therefore no one did.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: You did one short interview on News Nation.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: I know that you've apparently been invited on the Piers
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: Morgan Show, but that's been postponed as of this taping
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: and scheduled for later this week. But by and large,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: my guess is you have received virtually no support in
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: the very media that in a remotely rational world would
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: see this event as threatening the very institution of journalism
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: by throwing out a reporter by Capitol police asking a
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: legitimate question, Have you gotten.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 5: Any You know, there's been some I don't want to
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 5: say that there's been zero support. Like Megan Kelly and
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 5: Glenn Greenwald the day after, we're doing a sort of
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 5: a segment together, and they were very much supporting me
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 5: or defensive or they supported the legitimacy of the question,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 5: they criticized the expulsion, et cetera. So that was good,
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 5: and I had. You know, Megan Kelly got angry with
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 5: me a few weeks ago for something related to Jeffer Epstein.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 5: I thought that she was saying stuff that wasn't really
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 5: properly actually predicated. So I guess she that wouldn't have
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 5: necessarily been inclined to leap to my defense, but she did.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: Hear you know, sometimes gets it right.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes when she has a direct self interest in thing,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: she will not.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 4: Get Yeah, you know, I did some. I actually did
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: some conservative talk radio. The next day.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 5: I did a Big Reason podcast that actually was pre scheduled,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 5: but I think it's supposed to be coming out today.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 4: I did Glenn Greenwald Show, who.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: I contribute to the show anyway, By and large, were
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: near the same kind of level of support that you
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: should get in a remotely world, because this is an
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: attack on journalism that happened here.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 4: When you have tokay, oh, I'll give you another one.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 5: Actually, somebody from this organization called Freedom I think it's
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 5: Freedom of the Press Foundation or something like that, some
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 5: journalist rights group who I actually had another incident of
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 5: five years ago that they called me and had the
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 5: document and then they didn't do anything with it. It
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 5: was when I was covering the George Floyd protests in
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 5: Portland and at night, these like Antifa super soldier like
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 5: black clad people come out and like just tyrannize everyone
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 5: who doesn't necessarily recite their mantras, and like they you know,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 5: they stole my phone, they gave it back eventually, they
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 5: threatened to curb stop me.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 4: They threw stuff at me, basically chase to be away.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 4: And you know I wrote about it.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 5: I was you know, I was writing about it for
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 5: the Wall Street Journal at the time, and so like
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 5: I had like a much a legitimate media affiliation to
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 5: to site and I gave like a and then this
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 5: same organization contacted me, had me to describe what happened,
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 5: and then like they didn't add it.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 4: They never added it to they're like their tracker or whatever.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 5: I like press free and freedom violations, and like that
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 5: same organization did contact me on I think it was
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 5: Friday of last week, and I described the situation here,
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 5: so we'll see what comes of it. And I have
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 5: I have other media that I'm doing. You know, you know,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 5: I don't care. I mean, I don't need everybody to
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 5: rush and like defend Michael Tracy. I'm not like I
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 5: don't need to.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: Be like you're missing you're missing the point, but I
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: got the point. I'm glad that you have gotten.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 4: And also I have.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 5: I have gotten a lot of good you know, my
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 5: substack has been doing really well. So there's a minority
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 5: of people who appreciate what I've been doing. And you know,
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 5: on a personally even financially, that's been good, well.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: Good, And I'm glad you're getting a lot more support,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: even though it's not as much as it should than
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: I did in very similar situations, especially in the Sandusky case.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: But let's talk about the specifics of.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: Who were who were who was speaking, for instance, at
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: this press event where you were thrown out. There are
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of different speakers, but one that I want
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: you to to talk about is a woman by the
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: name of Lisa Phillips.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: And Lisa Phillips.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: Is an attractive woman of color, and as someone who
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: is educated on this case but doesn't know, like, for instance,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: until this event, who Lisa Phillips is or was and
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: who is just evaluating things based upon my interpretation of
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: the way human beings react. I mean, I think I
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: have a pretty good sense of who's sincere, who's not,
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: who's a.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: Good guy, who's a bad guy. I got a very
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: bad sense from Lisa Phillips just by watching her.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 9: I felt like she was really enjoying being there, and
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 9: that is always one of to me, the biggest red
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 9: flags when it comes to victims.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: Of especially horrific sexual abuse.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: If you are enjoying being there, if you are enjoying
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: the spotlight, if you are happy.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: For the world to know who you are and your role.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: In this situation and describing yourself as a survivor of
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, that doesn't mean you're lying, that doesn't mean
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: that you're a bad person.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: But that's a red flag to.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: Me, and this person very clearly was enjoying being up there.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: Tell us about Lisa Phillips's story and why there are
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: substantive reasons to be skeptical of her role in this.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 5: Right, So I'll get to Lisa Phillips, But just so
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 5: you know the way that they john come on, I'm sorry,
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 5: I always I always circle back.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 4: I'm not going on some wild tangent. You calm down,
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 4: all right.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 5: In the weeks leading up to this press conference, they
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 5: were advertising it like they're big hook to get everybody
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 5: interested was that they claimed that they were going to be
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 5: debuting brand new Epstein victims, that brand new, never before seen,
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 5: never before heard from victims of Epstein and Maxwell, so
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 5: you could see that with why that would generate media interest, right,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 5: and that they were and they were keeping these supposed
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 5: new victims. Their identity is concealed until the day of
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 5: the press conference, is what I was told.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 4: Anyway by Rocanna staff several weeks ago.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 5: And so I had never I had only been dimly
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 5: familiar with Lisa Phillips. I had sort of heard of her,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 5: but I thought she was just always she's kind of
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 5: like too peripheral to even really dig into that much,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 5: like she had launched some kind of podcast last year
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 5: where she was talking about trauma and all this stuff
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 5: and like women's empowerment issues and whatever. But it turns
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 5: out she's one of these, I guess, not technically a
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 5: new victim, but she's like one of the people who
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 5: the organizers organizers decided to feature. So at the pre
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 5: press conference sort of survivor rally, that's where she got
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 5: on stage and said, I have an announcement to make everybody.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 4: We survivors have.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 5: To have been talking amongst ourselves and we've decided we're
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 5: going to produce our own Jeffrey Epstein client lists, Right,
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 5: so we're.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 4: Gonna name names.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 5: We're gonna confidentially, they said, name names of all the
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 5: prominent power, powerful people who were implicated in Epstein's sex
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 5: trafficking ring. And people would assume she means child sex
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 5: trafficking ring, right, because that's why the story is so
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 5: emotionally sort of resonant, and the you know, the crowd
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 5: went wild.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 4: Like Gloria Alred also spoke with that rally.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 5: I guess they didn't want to necessarily bring her in
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 5: to have to stand alongside Marjorie Diller Green, although that
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 5: would have been pretty funny.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: Just by the just for the record, anytime the Glory
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: Allred is involved in a story, I automatically know there
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: is bullshit involved.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I interviewed her. Actually I'm still going to view
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 4: something with that.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: I don't care if you interviewed her, doesn't matter. Her
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: presence automatically brings with it to me an extreme level
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: of skepticism because she is full of shit, So go ahead.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 5: But anyway, she was at that sort of pre press
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 5: conference rally where Lisa Phillips introduced this claim that like
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 5: she clearly calculated was going to draw headlines and it did,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 5: because wow, that means there's still this entire universe of
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 5: unnamed co conspirators of Epstein, right, who the government refuses
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 5: to prosecute, and that's why they're covering up the quote
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 5: unquote Epstein files.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 5: So now the survivors, led by Lisa Phillips, are take
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 5: it upon themselves to produce their own lists and show
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 5: how deficient to and derelict the government really was.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 4: And so she spoke, and she.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 5: Spoke at the main press conference, and Thomas Massey announced
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 5: that he and Marjorie Taylor Green would be willing to
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 5: take this supposedly newly created Epstein clientlest from Lisa Phillips
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 5: and go to the floor of the House of Representatives
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 5: and enter it into the congressional record.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 4: I mean read off the names of people that she's
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 4: accusing me.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: Because you're forgetting in a very important part of this
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: whole equation. And that the reason for why Massey believes
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: that he needs to do this is that he would
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: be exempted from any sort of legal ramifications.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: He cannot be sued for something that he.
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: Says on the floor Lord of the House, and that
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: the explanation, this is the important part that we're missing here,
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: which I found to be a smoking gun. One of
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: many smoking guns in this ridiculous event of absurdity is
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: that the organizers were claiming. One of the organizers claimed
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: that they can't provide their list publicly because the Epstein
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: survivors will be sued into homelessness, right, sued into homelessness.
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 4: Well, Massy said that MASSI said that whoever.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: I don't remember who did, but that was the explanation
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: given for why there haven't been public names listed.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: By the way, no, I assume that's what is.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: That also the explanation for there haven't been any lawsuits
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: against these rich, powerful, prominent people, which is to me
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: one of the biggest red flags of this entire mythologist.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 5: On that point, John, you'll be interested in this because
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 5: you've raised that point before. Bradley Edwards has said that
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 5: there are like, you know, to me, around thirty prominent
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 5: people whom he sort of extracted potentially settlements from secretly.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 4: So, uh, that's what he says.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 5: And so there have been and there has so there
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 5: has been like legal action potentially against some people who
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 5: might have wanted to, like, you know, watch the hand.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 9: I don't.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: I don't have any reason to believe that unless and
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: Here's why I don't believe it, because somebody wouldn't have settled.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: Somebody would have fought it right, and therefore we would
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: have learned it well.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 4: Derswitz fought it. Let's d Dershowitz did fight.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: It and right well and he won.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 4: And Prince Andrew fought it initially.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: Right and well because he had no control over what
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: the royal family did with their massive amounts of money.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: They just wanted to go away. And there's a whole
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: backstory of.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 4: The and others have thought it.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 5: Actually John, there was a recent lawsuit against somebody who
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 5: was it was it's a man now and Is I
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 5: think nineties who was an associate of Epstein. He was
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 5: a psychologist. He got sued by uh, I'm pretty sure Edwards.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 5: It might have been David Boyce on like totally spurious grounds.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 5: This was only in the past two years and they
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 5: ended up dismissing the lawsuit because the claims were ridiculous.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, that doesn't surprise me at all. But I
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: have no reason to believe that there have been thirty
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: settlements with people who were involved in the massive Epstein conspiracy,
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: especially when there's no evidence for that. But once again, Michael,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: you claimed when I asked you the question, you would
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: circle back, and you got upset when I got exasperated
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: because you started down in another path.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 2: Guess what's happened over the last five years?
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 4: Right, You're right?
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 5: Didn't hey and tell me about Lisa Phillips?
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 4: Okay, okay?
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: Why we should be skeptical of her credibility? Right?
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 5: So MASSI says, these people are going to be student
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 5: to homelessness if they publicly name these supposedly uh if
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 5: they publicly named names. Right, So I thought to myself, huh, okay,
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 5: if we're if we're to believe that Lisa Phillips would
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 5: be student to oblivion and rendered homeless if she were
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 5: to publicly divult these names of powerful people implicated in
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 5: Epstein and sex trafficking. Grand that she claims that she's
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 5: in possession of what do we know about her finances? Well,
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 5: thankfully I was able to interview her briefly. This was
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 5: pre press conference, right, this is a so called survivor's rally,
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 5: and so I first wanted to know if she could
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 5: confirm that she claims that she was groomed as an
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 5: adult by Jeffrey Epstein. Because she claims that she was
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 5: twenty one when she first encountered Epstein. Right, She was
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 5: a model in New York. She says that she was
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 5: offered by her agent to fly down to the British
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 5: Version Islands for a photo shoot for a magazine in
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 5: two thousand and then a friend she was with invited
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 5: her to sail over to Epstein's Island on their off
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 5: day in the US Virgin Islands, and she went, and
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 5: she claims she initially really liked Jeffrey Epstein, like she
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 5: was almost enamored of him.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: There are photographs of her having a grand old rime
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: on these trips.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 4: Right, it looks awesome.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 5: I mean, I wish somebody invited me to go to
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 5: that island sometimes, because right, I mean that she's on
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 5: a boat, she's swimming in the ocean.
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 4: It's it's like paradise, right.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 5: And and but she she you know, just last year
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 5: she handed over these photos to Fox News, who for
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 5: some reason was interviewing her about this, and like it
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 5: was supposed to like a substantiate that she actually was
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 5: on Epstein's island.
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 4: But she looks like she's having a ball. And yet
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 4: we're now supposed to have it sort of recast in.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 5: Our minds as this is evidence of her being and
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 5: stared in some kind of like sex trafficking.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 4: Bring it makes zero sense.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: So she had most important part, the most important part
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: of this Philip's story is that there is zero doubt
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: whatsoever that her story is that she had sex.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: Whether it was consensual or not. Who the hell knows
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: at this point.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: At twenty one and older, which is irrelevant to the
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: narrative of this entire story. Prior story, it's supposed to
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: be underaged girls.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: And so how has she glombed on? And presumably I
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: believe you.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: Didn't you get information that she has gotten a settlement,
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: didn't she? She told me right, she said that she
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: has gotten a settlement. So these years later, all these
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: years later, she engages. So here's what I think likely happened.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: She is a model slash escort that gets hired to
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: go have a grand old time with Jeffrey Epstein. They
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: engage in a sexual relationship. Years later, the whole Epstein
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: thing blows up in a completely separate, different narrative. He
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: of course, is dead. The media is obsessed with the story.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: There's money to be had, and she rewrites history, making
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: herself into a sex abuse victim, and everyone buys it,
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: partially because no one wants to push back on any accuser,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: and partially because maybe because she's a woman of color.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is is, no one wants to.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 5: Let's leave the racial stuff out of this, John, because
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 5: it's kind of irrelevant, because like, it's not.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: Irrelevant, she's the only white color.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: Here's why it's not irrelevant, because when you are an
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: accuser of anything in this in this world, in this country,
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: you are evaluated based upon your attributes and how much
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: force field protection you have against attack. And if you
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: are a young woman, that means you cannot be attacked.
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: But if you're a young woman of color, forget about it.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: You cannot be attacked, you cannot be criticized.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 4: Okay, gotcha.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 5: I'm just saying I think every other accuser, including the
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 5: most insane ones, are white women, And so you know,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 5: there's not a really racial through line here. You completely
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 5: I got you, I got you, I got got Yeah,
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 5: that's basically what happened.
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 4: I think she actually was based on what I think.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: You agree with me?
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: Do you agree with me that you think that that
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: that that's what happened with regard.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 5: To Phillips more more or less, yes, I think she
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 5: was based on what I could tell, Like she gave
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 5: Fox News this magazine cover that she says was she
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 5: took the photoshoot for when during this trip to the
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 5: Virgin Islands, and it says September of two thousand.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 7: If you look at her look up her birthdate, she
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 7: would have been twenty three at the time.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 5: Actually, so I think she actually revised down her age
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 5: because she wanted to, as much as possible get herself
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 5: conflated with the actual alleged child sex crime victims.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 4: And she claims that it was.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 5: Only after she met some quote unquote survivors like this
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 5: sisterhood of drama bonding survivors, like they actually talked that
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 5: way about one another, that she realized, oh, she too
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 5: was a victim, just like the actual children allegedly because
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 5: they were all girls, like from the eighteen to twenty
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 5: five year old she realized were also girls who were victimized.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 4: And yeah, that's basically her. But like, what does the casual.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 5: News consumer assume if they they're watching this press conference
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 5: and they see this woman speaking. She doesn't say, Hey, everybody,
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 5: I was twenty one or twenty three when I met
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 5: Jeffrey Epstein.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 4: She doesn't specify.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 7: It just all gets conflated with this whole notion of
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 7: a pedo.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 5: Ring, which has no bearing on anything. This woman even
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 5: claimed that she experienced. It's all about illusion and conflation,
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 5: and the media, of course thinks it would be somehow
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 5: evil to provide this any kind of clarifying information and
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 5: distinguish the literal adults who admit that there were adults,
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 5: of which there were many who spoke at this press conference,
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 5: from the ones who at least purport that they were
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 5: miners when they were victimized.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: Well, if you're remember of the media, you might get
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: escorted out by Capitol police if you ask the wrong question.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: So of course they're all gonna sit on their hands.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: So that's Part one of the Michael Tracy interview. Part
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: two is, in my opinion, much better, far more compelling,
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: and it's clearly way more heated for reasons that I've
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: already alluded to, and we will play that next week
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: in episode two hundred and fifty nine of the Death
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: of Journalism podcast. But my basic takeaway from that press
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: conference is that it is the perfect proof of everything
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: I ever say about this case in particular, and sex
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: abuse cases in general. The vast majority of the news
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: media doesn't even want basic questions to be asked. They
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: would much rather go along with the narrative that has
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: already been created because there's nothing in it for them
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: to go against the narrative. I've said that one hundred
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: and one times when it came to the Penn State
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: Joe Paterno Jerry Sandowsky scandal, which is different than Epstein
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: because Epstein was guilty and Sandusky was not, But there
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: are some similarities when it comes to the moral panic
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: and the general consensus by the news media that there's
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: only one narrative here and anything that goes against that
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: narrative must be destroyed and cannot be taken seriously at all.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: You're if you go against that narrative, and because they've
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: just got too much invested in it.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: And let's be clear, both sides, right and left are.
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: Deeply invested now in this massive grand Epstein conspiracy theory
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: for which there.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: Is no evidence or logic, and I.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: Think we will further explain that reality in part two
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: of this interview on next week's episode of The podcast.
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to today's free drop of the abbreviated show.
• 1:43:34
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• 1:43:38
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• 1:43:45
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• 1:43:50
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• 1:43:59
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