Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / More suspended pupils to stay in school under new government behaviour rules: Points of View

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More suspended pupils to stay in school under new government behaviour rules: Points of View · Teachers Talk Radio

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Welcome to TKO Talk Radio! Thank you for listening!
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Hello, good morning. Welcome to Teachers Talk Radio Points of View this morning,
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where we discuss all the important issues that are fascinating people in education in the world today.
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And today, we are discussing the somewhat unexpected or unanticipated proposal
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that the government floated this week that would reform the way that suspensions work.
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So for anybody that's not heard about the proposal,
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it is said that the government in the new white paper, which we're expecting
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this month, will be going out to review on a proposal to change the way that suspensions work.
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So that instead of a default position where all suspensions are out of school,
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some of those suspensions would be still in school.
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The student would remain in school and be supervised in some separate area by the school staff.
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It doesn't say that if a child is guilty of a violent incident, that would happen.
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The suggestion is that there be a difference drawn between when young people
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have committed an act of violence...
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Or harm, physical harm, and then there would be still an external suspension,
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but for other offences that the internal approach should be taken.
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So that's the issue that we're discussing today and the main teacher unions
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and lots of other people have already been weighing in with their thoughts on things.
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So I want to ask our panel now who would want to start and what their thoughts are on this proposal?
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Well, I'm always happy to start. So I think that one of the biggest issues we
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have in schools at the moment is behaviour.
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I think that that is coming up loud and clear across the media.
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We see so many reports of behaviour-related problems that are causing,
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at the end of the day, causing those
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who are there to learn disruption and sometimes fear in the classroom.
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It's becoming a huge problem. It does need to be dealt with.
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Like you said, this has sort of come out of the blue somewhat.
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I can imagine that schools must be in a sort of a state, as in,
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as are so many different sectors of society at the moment, what do they want?
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What do they mean? What have we got to provide now? Have I got to find a room?
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Because whilst in primary schools, we have probably, we're starting to see that
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drop off in school numbers.
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That's not yet coming through in secondary schools yet. So they haven't got
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the space of this. There's no spare capacity.
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I mean, schools are literally cutting to the bone the amount of teachers that
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they have. They've cut the amount of teaching support that they have.
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Who is going to do this? Is there going to be extra money for this?
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So that's my opening question, I suppose.
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And one that many people, I think, have been asking. JP, what's your thought?
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Exactly that. I mean, as a current situation that I find myself in,
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I can see that there are cuts from hard-up and multi-academy trusts,
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including my own, cutting behavior teams and cutting staff members.
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They want to introduce AI. What are they going to do?
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Put RoboCop in charge of the kids, you know what I mean?
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Ed 209, you know?
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Those of a certain vintage would probably think sci-fi is becoming there.
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In principle I can see some merit to what they're talking about children going
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home it's actually a reward while in a section you know they've got their man
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cave woman cave whatever their
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teenage cave where they're they're sent food through a porthole under
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the door and they stay in there the whole time I mean
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often remarked when people go how awful it was for kids during COVID are you
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joking they had food board lodgings and as long as the internet worked you know
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and subscription to Netflix and Tiger King they were absolutely fine I mean
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that's the thing I understand that they want to sort of say that suspension
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needs to be a punishment.
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Well, I think the punishment would be this. I was suspended from school myself
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back in the day. I can't go into it too much, but my parents were dragged in.
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My parents were dragged in. My dad had to take a day off work.
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And I can tell you, I felt that my suspension was just and I was wronged.
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Parents felt my suspension was unjust and wronged. But I tell you what,
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I felt the guilt and the shame of.
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And I my behavior was corrected because I
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brought disrepute from the family I'd let them down
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I'd let the school down and I was made to feel as if I
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had done something wrong and the the punishment itself was
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the loss of respect that I received and the way my parents dealt with it and
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that's the elephant in the room but not addressing the root causes of behavior
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this is this is like reforming the prison service yeah well should we send criminals
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home yeah let's send criminals home instead of putting him in prison that'll
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work won't it and i get the concept that we want children not to lose out new education.
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But also, there are children in classrooms who are losing out in education because
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those children who are suspended before they get to suspension cause absolute chaos.
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So what they're not doing is addressing the elephant in the room.
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And that is a crisis in behavior, leadership, a crisis in standards.
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And that's societal, that's the whole shabang.
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And I think we teachers sometimes are the last guardians. God bless the police officers as well.
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We're kind of the last guardians of any standards, any moral standards.
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We have terrible leadership in this country time after
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time who lie gaslight the moral compass
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is just being deviated to such an extent that
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what this keeps keep them in schools you
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think of the amount of time that school has with children 190
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odd days a year six hours a week and
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an average teacher sees those children one to two hours a
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week what impact do i have on changing their behavior
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that is already set and that's the question we
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need to really address is that we cannot fix society's problems
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this is just a sticking plaster over the absolute gaping
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wound of us picking up the pieces again of societal issues that we just cannot
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stop and i'm a parent myself before anybody wants to teach or bash me i'm a
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parent they're my children they're my responsibility their behavior reflects
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on me the book stops with my responsibility as a parent school supports me.
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The other way around. I sometimes can question the school's behavioural policies
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within my rights to do so and engage with the school.
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But we have not seen enough parents do that. They're quick to criticise and
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quick to say my child's needs aren't being met.
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Schools are not baristas. We are not coffee shops.
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We can't just tailor the needs to your child because your little child gets what they want at home.
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We need to have an education sector which actually educates people on how to educate children.
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Sorry, I was just going to jump in on that particular point because I think
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this is the issue that actually this is micromanagement from the government itself.
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School behaviour policies are almost irrelevant in this because they won't have
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any, because they'll be told by the government what they can and can't do.
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And that is just constantly telling schools, feeding back to them,
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you don't know what you're doing, we're going to have to work it out for you.
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That's not the case schools know their pupils they know
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their areas they know their the demographic so much
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better than the government does and and to think that they can come
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in and start you know and telling schools
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and dictating to schools how they should manage behavior they should be helping
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schools to manage behavior not dictating to them so the school policy the behavior
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policy thing i can see that becoming a null and void so do you think perhaps
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this is a policy that hasn't come from schools.
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It hasn't come from teachers.
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There isn't a popular wave of concern about the way that a suspension sanction works.
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This is something that comes from government.
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And if it comes from government, then why?
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Why have they decided, do you think, to make this a priority now rather than,
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well, you mentioned a number of other things, JP, that are, I would argue probably
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much more a concern in your average stat room so why do you think the government
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have made this a priority right now.
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It's from the usual last couple of years we've seen policy driven by headlines
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and newspapers rather than actual evidence.
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If the evidence says that this is a better policy, produce that evidence,
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let academics work on it, let teachers work on it, come up with a policy that works in reality.
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And a policy, as Lucy would suggest, that is flexible enough to allow schools
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at different settings to adjust to their context.
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But this is just to generate headlines. Look at us. We're doing something about
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discipline in schools. Oh, aren't we fantastic?
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And it reads okay. But when you delve beneath the surface, it's quite patronizing.
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It is, I think, as Lucy suggests, it's quite patronizing. Same as the phone policy.
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I put this i filed this under the phone call still
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you seem to be doing something what actually schools are already doing
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you know we're going to ban phones in schools you're 10 years
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too late on that one to be perfectly honest but that reads well it's like we're
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in control here it's the illusion of we're in control we are educated we are
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really on top of this because we are doing this but the reality is they're not
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on top of this because they don't want to address the actual real issue and
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that is a deep conversation that needs to happen on a societal level that the
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government needs to show leadership from the top.
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And that leadership needs to show and be very clear to parents.
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They're pandering, again, no disrespect.
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And as a parent myself, this is more about sort of meeting the needs of parents,
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because let's think about it.
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If little, as I said, those children were sent home, they would have to be their parents' problem.
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And as we saw during COVID, we're really turning into glorified babysitting service, aren't we?
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So let's keep the kids in school, even when they do wrong, because that's what
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they should be. I get that.
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I do want, And there are times, actually, I have children in inclusion,
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and I will pull that child from inclusion into my classroom,
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say, if they're GCSE people, I want them to do revision.
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And that's fine. The behavior team is usually okay with that,
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because I will say, look, that child needs to be in my class.
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And there are times there are children suspended. I will go to that child and
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say, how did you get yourself suspended? I need you in the class. I want you in the class.
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And I have to then say to the student, you've lost out on the opportunity to
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be in my class because of your behavior. And for some children, that works.
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But some hardcore children, we are just, it doesn't matter what we're going to do with them.
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Because the problem is, is there are deep-seated issues that have not been addressed.
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And government talking about, here's a classic one.
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Oh, they go home and they've got social media and they go home and they've got
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these devices. Again, okay, regulate the social media. We're talking about banning social media.
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Regulate it. If those children have access to devices, then say to yourself,
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those children shouldn't have access to those devices.
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But that's a more difficult thing to do. And that doesn't play well with voters
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and popularity. We have a government basically run by popularity contests, not policy.
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It's not policy, not evidence.
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That's exactly it. So to me, they look at headline figures.
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We need to be able to put on a leaflet, 100% of this, 45% reduction in.
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And that's, I think, how they work out what they want it to look like,
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and then they work back from that.
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That's the only way I can think that they would hone in on this and say what
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they've done is said the figures aren't good.
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We can say we've reduced those figures, but they haven't actually improved behaviour
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in schools. They've just passed the buck onto schools to deal with bad behaviour
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and keep it on the hush, as it were. And that's even worse.
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So the optics then, it seems, are the.
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Preferred explanation for why this somewhat unexpected priority has been thrown into the limelight.
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And I would agree with what you're saying.
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I'm just trying to look at it from their point of view and see what their argument would be.
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Because I suppose they would argue that at the moment,
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too many young people are being suspended and that too many of them see that
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as a reward in that they then can do all the things that, you know,
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JP, you were describing, you know, young people doing in the pandemic,
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that they can go home, they can game and go on social media so their heart's
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content, and they don't have to do a great deal in terms of work because expectations
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are low as far as engagement's concerned on that one.
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So it's actually a reward for bad behavior rather than a punishment for bad behavior.
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So do you think that's right?
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Sorry to interrupt. Not at all.
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My proposition to you was that some people may say,
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and the government may say, that currently the way that suspensions work is
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actually a reward for poor behaviour and that what this would do is raise the punishment level.
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It would make it more unpleasant to be suspended for poor behavior.
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What would you say in response to that?
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Well, I mean, I have some sympathy with that, to be fair, because I think that
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we know that actually some of the behavior issues that we have are down to children and,
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disengaging from school. They don't want to get out of their beds anymore.
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I don't know whether COVID, I don't know how long we can keep saying COVID is the cause of this.
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I don't know how long that will be, but it has caused a change in mindset in
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a lot of people where they feel as though it's unfair that they have to get
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up every morning, that they have to make a journey, they have to get dressed into clothes.
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And so in some ways, even if we ban social media, which I totally support.
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And we discussed that last week. But even if we do that, I still think that
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there are lots of nice things to do at home for kids who didn't want to be in
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school in the first place.
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So there is an argument to be made for that. But I don't think the government
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are providing a solution to that.
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So they've looked at that, said that's a problem and that's all.
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We know that it can be, I don't know whether there's an issue with parents having
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to take time off if the kids are younger and therefore the government is saying,
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well, that's, you know, that's costing.
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I don't know. I don't know what the purpose behind it really is.
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I don't think any of us do.
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However, I do think it's something that we need to, I have an element of sympathy with that argument.
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When you have the excluded students turning up on their bikes outside schools,
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which I've read about, and I remember when I was at school,
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because I went to quite an interesting school, we would have those kids,
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they'd be outside the gates and we'd all be told, come away from the gates,
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come away from the gates, you know,
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because they'd be out there and they'd be drinking fizzy drinks and having it.
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So this isn't even a modern thing necessarily, you know, it's always been a
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bit of a treat for some who don't care.
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And obviously, JP, for you, when you were suspended, you were,
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you know, you were hauled through the coals and, you know, and you felt very
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uncomfortable about it.
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I was never suspended, even though I was quite a naughty kid at school,
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But I was never suspended and never had a detention because I knew that absolutely.
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Pain that i would go through at home and and
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the societal attitudes have changed everything
16:04
has changed and i think that we've got to learn how to
16:07
deal with some of these changes in the modern world this
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your ticket today we can't wait to see you there i mean
16:54
i just i'd just like to make an important point at this stage
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that i was extremely well behaved at school none of
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those horrible things i i didn't do any of those at all one of the reasons one
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of the reasons why what the reasons why i didn't do anything well i'll give
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you the reasons why i did and do anybody listening going to criticize what i'm
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to say, I don't diagnose needs.
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Can I throw in... I was keen for it at primary school. Really?
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So I hear these people going, my child's needs aren't being met.
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I'm going, mine weren't.
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And a lot of my friends who were dyslexic weren't. And a lot of my behavior
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could now be explained by... And teachers back then weren't trained as we were.
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And I'm getting tired of that idea that we are working... I am as a teacher
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working 100 times harder than the previous generation of teachers to meet as
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many needs as We just can't keep up.
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We just can't keep up. And I'm sorry, some of it's used as a shield.
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Some of it's used as a shield. I myself now, you know, I take responsibility for my actions.
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And in fact, I feel injustice a lot better, a lot more than most.
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They say that's an ADHD trait because I fall and fall my own sword and I accept
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myself a very high standard.
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But what I've established as a teacher is routines, consistency, and holding the line.
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And I've got a lot of respect from parents and pupils over the years. The
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kind of challenging pushback I'm getting in the last couple of years is getting
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higher to basically people get what they want and
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i think this is one of those sort of not pandering
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to parent power but it is in a way more convenient
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for parents to have the children in school when they're you know suspended and
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yes i think it's a sound argument you're right lucy it is a sound argument because
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children can be at home and children can be playing around with this stuff but
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then that was the central problem i'm sorry who when they're sent home they're
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sent home there should be parents you
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Right. And when I was sent home and suspended, my mother was there,
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but that was that society at that time when you had the mother at home and that's
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the two parent working household.
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So I have sympathy for some parents because they're out working hard and they're
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out doing their best and then their child gets sent home and that causes issues.
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I think the grandparents sometimes get pulled in.
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I find that sometimes talking to the grandparent is better than talking to the parent.
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In fact, I often rang the grandparent about the child's behavior.
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Knowing that the grandparent is then going to cascade that to the parent because
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the grandparent is probably the one with more authority and power.
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And the one that's going to ring me about your child, sort your child out.
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So I've done that in many occasions where I rang the grandparent,
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who I'd known quite well about the parent.
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And I actually had one situation recently where I rang the grandparent about.
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The child and i taught the parent so literally
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i'd gone back to the original parent and said what's
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going on with your grandchild and it was like the parent themselves
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was an ex-pupil of mine said why did you ring my mom it's
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just like good old days and i'm like yeah it is like the good old days and
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it worked because you established those relationships and that's not
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what's in this as well is how does i build relationships because the key to
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behavior is about building relationships and i think schools and parents there
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is a gap now between that and you get the kind of lack responsibility it's not
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my child's fault i am tired of everybody blaming everything but we're very.
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The child will take responsibility the parents need to take responsibility school
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mess up the school need to put their hand up i have numerous occasions if i
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got it wrong when your parent apologies and say i'm really sorry i over punished
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your child there is that all right and the parent would find that usually most of the time,
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quite fine but we're getting more now if you're right to get us
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the gap between us and them is getting wider and wider
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and anything schools do now is just amplifying i mean
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people don't get the lump it's the newspapers it's the mp it's my child's not
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being met and there's it's almost as if we we're literally the meat between
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the sandwich and i think this policy they're talking about us gone behind our
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back that for our own benefit is yes it's patronizing sorry what i'm hearing is that your views are,
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and I wouldn't disagree with them, that this is essentially a populist policy,
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more concerned with the optics than the reality.
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And that parental responsibility
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is being eroded and
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responsibility for behaviour is being
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passed increasingly to schools and away from parents and that that is the wrong
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way to do things because I think we'd all agree in schools that we only have
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a degree of influence over behavior because behavior ultimately does come from the home.
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It isn't just a question of school and what they are or are not doing.
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It's a question of an awful lot else that's going on in that young person's life.
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And consequently, this runs the danger that it will take the spotlight away
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from parental responsibility and move it towards schools,
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another potential thing that schools are responsible for.
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Now, they are responsible for behaviour, but also for them looking after their
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child when, looking after the child of a parent when they've been suspended.
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And that's something that does, I think, concern.
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What about the question of mobile phones, just for a moment,
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and I only want to spend a moment on this because it's been covered a lot,
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but there was an argument put forward, I think, by Bridget Phillipson that...
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One of the problems with the suspension at the moment is that kids will be on
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their phones, they'll be on their devices.
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What about if one of the conditions of a suspension was that the school kept
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the mobile phones or the child's mobile phones?
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How would you think that would work? No, it would be an ECHR thing, wouldn't it?
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Or a Human Rights Act or something. You know, you couldn't possibly make my
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child give their phone up.
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This is my property. They have a right to access.
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Their granny's ill. There would
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be a thousand reasons given why that child would have to have the phone.
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It's just that would not, I'm afraid it wouldn't work.
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And actually, I still feel as though those bans on mobile phones in classrooms,
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I don't know whether it happens, but whether they hand in a dummy phone,
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an old phone, and still have an accessible phone or a usable phone on them.
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I just, you know, you can get them, I don't know, they're not cheap,
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but, you know, you can get, buy secondhand phones and.
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I think I know what you're getting at, Cara. I think what you're,
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I know what you're getting at is, is that, for instance, I've always advocated,
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like, for the oldest kids in school.
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And they don't like me for advocating this, that they shouldn't be automatically going to their pro.
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Yeah i'm sorry you know for me
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the the best punishment is the thing they care
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about the most and a lot of parents do that a lot of parents i mean
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i joke with kids going to say you know is your parents driving around
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today with their xbox and the in the booty game you
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know so god there are a lot of parents who you know who hide controllers
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who hide devices and there's a game of
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mouse that goes on in some households because they know the
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thing that's most valuable to students is their mobile device
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and i get you're absolutely spun on carl because they do you
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take away their device from them and it's like you're removing an external
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limb because the music goes through that the social media goes
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through that and i suppose the thing with the exclusion which would support
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what they're saying to a certain extent would be that exclusion then
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deprives them of the thing that they really want which
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is that device that time but that's
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what we do with detentions don't we we take detain children for
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a period of time because we take away their free time and
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that's why detentions don't work because kids get so much free time now
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they don't do chores when i was a kid growing up i had four
24:40
three or four hours of homework and chores to do free time
24:43
was more valuable our kids have got so much free time now because
24:46
everything's done for them the world's become so fast and quick you're robbing
24:50
them of opportunities to do stuff when you actually think how busy children
24:53
are i get that when i say to children you know could you do 20 hours a week
24:56
revision and they look at me and go like you know i can't possibly do that and
24:59
i ask a child to show me their mobile phone show me your mobile phone how many
25:02
hours were yesterday were you on your mobile phone.
25:04
Four hours, five hours on your mobile phone. That's five, five,
25:08
five, five, seven, thirty-five. There's thirty-five hours mobile phone time.
25:11
You can squeeze in twenty hours of revision.
25:13
Oh, I'm busy. And that's the problem is they are wired in.
25:17
So I think you're on to something, Cara. I think you've got a point there that's
25:20
very valid. What's the punishment that would be the most impactful on children?
25:23
It's really what you're suggesting, isn't it?
25:26
I am. I mean, I think I also need to, I'm trying to think through how to give
25:31
the government a way of getting out of this in a face-saving way,
25:35
because I suspect that they didn't anticipate.
25:41
How controversial this would be among schools.
25:45
I know the unions and some big voices in education have been a little bit more
25:49
measured about their response to it, but everybody I talk to in schools on the
25:54
ground is generally not in favor of this.
25:58
And I think the government probably have underestimated that reaction,
26:01
but they don't want to lose face.
26:04
They don't want to back down and, you know, they make some legitimate points
26:09
in the reasons for doing it, even though we think it's principally about optics.
26:14
So one of the things could be that you address the question of mobile phones
26:20
by simply saying, well, one of the conditions is that schools actually have greater powers.
26:24
So they have a legal power to confiscate and hold the child's mobile phones
26:32
and other electronic devices, and that they'd be handed over.
26:36
Now, before, you know, we all completely dismiss the idea of ludicrous,
26:41
and I know that it probably is ludicrous.
26:45
But if you think, imagine a scenario where all schools, as in fact they will be.
26:51
Required to be mobile phone free and
26:55
we operate pouches as many
26:59
schools are starting to do then when
27:02
at the moment the decision is made to suspend
27:05
a child the school will either have
27:08
possession of that pouch in that locker somewhere or
27:12
the child will have the pouch but they
27:15
would need access to the little clipping thing to
27:18
unlock the pouch that the school could either
27:21
deny or provide at which point
27:24
it would then be possible in theory at least for that device to to hold it now
27:31
yes you probably get multiple devices and goodness that laptops and all sorts
27:36
of other things in there so it's probably more a gesture than a reality but
27:41
it would help the government To say,
27:44
look, we're getting tough on the question of access to social media and online gaming and so on,
27:52
whilst at the same time retaining the authority of schools and keeping parental
27:59
responsibility as an important part of the system.
28:04
And I only throw it in there as a thought.
28:06
And I'm absolutely certain that nobody in government listens to teachers talk
28:11
radio much, much as I would advocate that they do so.
28:15
But I do just chuck it in there.
28:18
I mean, it's very kind of you to provide them with an off-ramp to a terrible
28:24
policy idea that's clearly not been tested,
28:26
that hasn't been in the manifesto, that hasn't been run past enough schools
28:31
for them to get a feel for how this might go down.
28:34
It shows that there is that lack of understanding about the strength of feeling
28:40
in schools amongst teachers and headteachers about how behaviour is ruining education.
28:46
It's ruining the teaching of education or teaching, you know,
28:49
teaching subjects is ruining the learning of subjects for other students.
28:54
So, yes, I think that it's I don't think it's a ludicrous idea at all.
28:58
I just can see court cases, you know, everybody's law suited up now.
29:05
Everyone knows their rights. And I can just see, I can just see it being a no-hoper from the start.
29:12
It'll be thrown out and it won't be possible. But it would be the perfect idea
29:17
because you are absolutely right. I mean, I am not dependent on my phone.
29:20
I try and leave my phone around and then I get a phone call for my son.
29:24
And I think, I'm sorry, I missed your call because I'm trying not to take my phone everywhere I go.
29:29
So I'm trying to break that dependence or, you know, but for children,
29:33
it's even worse because like you said, that is their access to everything at the moment.
29:38
And actually it's replacing in-person friendships and going out on your bikes
29:43
and all of those things. So it's a huge problem.
29:45
It would break that. And it would be something that would really put kids off.
29:50
And we do need those sanctions, desperately need those sanctions,
29:54
because it's no longer enough to be scared of what your mum and dad are going
29:57
to say, because generally your mum and dad are going to back you up as well.
30:00
That's how it seems these days.
30:02
So yes, it's a.
30:08
Being possible to enact it. I think we've got to get to the grassroots of it.
30:13
I think we have to understand why is there such a disconnect now with education
30:20
that has grown? It's not an overnight thing.
30:23
I don't think it's just because of COVID, although I think COVID exacerbated
30:26
a lot of problems, but it's been creeping in over a long period of time.
30:31
And I keep saying, and I'll say it till I'm blue in the face.
30:33
We've got to get it right at those
30:36
younger ages, because that's when that engagement begins to tail off.
30:42
We've seen behaviour problems in primary schools that you would never have dreamt
30:46
to see in a secondary school before.
30:48
And so, you know, that's where the government should be looking at strategies,
30:52
speaking to schools and understanding what's happening behind the issues,
30:56
and then coming up with strategies to try and make those problems,
31:00
well to improve things basically so that
31:03
we don't even have to do this in the first place so that suspension becomes
31:06
an unusual thing again and we can go back to you know a sort of more sensible
31:11
you know rules-based approach where there are boundaries and consequences because
31:16
that's what we need and that's the point the suspension was an unusual thing
31:20
the suspension was a humiliating thing and suspension were
31:24
And we talked about one of our previous shows about the 19 suspensions in the school in November.
31:30
Now, where I come from, suspensions are a very unusual thing because societal
31:33
pressure is a little bit different and society over there is a little bit different
31:36
and education's values are a little bit different as well.
31:39
It's taken me a long time to adjust to that. But there is a disproportionate
31:42
amount of children who are suspended from certain backgrounds,
31:45
aren't there? And from economic backgrounds.
31:47
And what you'd find is that you will have a situation where you'd suspend that
31:52
child and imagine here's a scenario and I haven't think they thought this one
31:55
through, but this is where the dots don't join with them.
31:58
You suspend the child and then you're saying, we're going to have the child
32:01
in an internal exclusion. The parent doesn't agree with suspension.
32:03
The child stays off school anyway.
32:05
There's the flaw. There's the complete flaw in everything you're talking about
32:08
because some parents will turn around and say, my child shouldn't be punished.
32:12
I don't want my child in an internal exclusion. I had a scenario with a parent
32:15
who is very vociferous and I get on with them quite well because I'm always quite honest with them.
32:20
And I'll give you an example of my honesty. they were talking
32:23
about the child being going to another school because of lateness and
32:26
they they were a lot late a lot of times and the small low
32:29
level stuff that built up into uh moving to another school
32:32
temporarily for one day so uh going to another unit so we have a sanction where
32:36
you send a child to the school next door and they send us ours as a kind of
32:39
internal exclusion and that kind of works there's a change of setting you know
32:43
there can be different systems they're isolated from their friends and it's
32:46
actually quite a reasonably effective way of doing it The parent was like,
32:49
my child's losing a day's education,
32:51
of which my response was, you lost five days' education when you took them out on a holiday.
32:55
So it doesn't work that way. Of which they went, well played,
32:59
that's a good point. I said, well, now, I had done that with another parent,
33:02
I'd probably be facing a suspension.
33:03
But I built a relationship up with that parent, a relationship based on candor
33:07
and honesty, which was, look, we've got systems in place. Your child is late.
33:10
He needs to come to school on time. Let's come up with a better system.
33:13
And you know what? While we're on the subject, you know, we are having a go
33:15
at us for him losing one day's education.
33:18
You know you took him out for a family holiday at the at the at the start
33:21
of the term in the us five days and and
33:24
she was like well that's it was a good holiday we actually said well it was
33:26
and he learned a lot during it absolutely fine but we can't have it both ways
33:30
and the same goes for schools as well we need to build a relationship with parents
33:33
and it's it's all right to sort of condemn and criticize some parents yeah which
33:36
and i'm perfectly able to do because that's part of my job and equally they
33:40
can criticize me if they want but we have to find out compromise in the middle ground.
33:44
And I do think that this policy may have some merit in trying to help the disadvantaged students.
33:49
But again, it doesn't address austerity. It doesn't address the Sure Start Centre
33:52
stuff. It doesn't address again, it's schools trying to fix problems that government
33:55
structurally needs to fix.
33:57
It cannot be the magic wand that waves and schools sort the problem out because
34:01
we are the fulcrum of everything now.
34:04
Everything's been piled onto us. So now we want to sort children's behaviour
34:08
out. We're not the police service. We're not the probation service.
34:11
We are educators, and we will educate as much as we can.
34:15
But the bulk of the children, let's be honest, the bulk of the children we teach
34:18
does not talk to. The bulk of the parents we're talking about does not talk to.
34:22
It's always a minority, a vocal minority that we never deal with because they shout loudly.
34:26
They use everything in their arsenal to undermine systems. So systems need to be airtight.
34:32
You know that as educators. Any system that's not airtight, there will be holes in cracks in it.
34:36
And there's the first major hole that nobody's connected. We have an attendance
34:39
crisis from certain people.
34:40
Those peoples are more likely to be the ones suspended now you're going to say
34:44
they're going to have those suspensions in school those parents will simply
34:47
say i'm not sending my child into school you'll have a school reviews on your
34:50
hands and then never serve that sentence.
34:52
Yeah i mean that that that's true i think there's also
34:55
a whole question about the reality of say for example a pupil is suspended for
35:01
five days which happens quite often in schools And the concept that they would
35:07
be in a private sealed room in school for five solid days, I think,
35:14
begs a question there about whether that's entirely the right way to handle
35:20
that child and whether that might have effects on their mood and their state of well-being,
35:30
to use a current phrase,
35:31
which wouldn't necessarily be very positive.
35:34
So in other words it would be worse it would be a form of of almost torture or incarceration.
35:41
Whilst getting parents off the hook to a
35:44
degree so you know because because that that's the reality that a young person
35:49
would be in that room that that space and it would have to be by its very nature
35:55
separate from everywhere else and everybody else and and that that is a that
36:01
that's a very difficult thing.
36:03
So what would possibly happen then is Coles would be reluctant to do that.
36:08
And they'd also face more parental pushback because parents would question whether
36:15
their child should be put through that process.
36:18
And as you say, JP, then what might happen is also some parents would say,
36:22
well, my child is not spending, you know, five days in that internal suspension
36:29
unit. So we're just going to have, we're going to keep them off school.
36:32
Now the school could say then, well, you can keep them off school,
36:36
but when they return, and they've got to go to the suspension unit.
36:39
So one way or another, it's going to happen.
36:41
But you could very easily see that escalate to a tit-for-tat where the parents
36:46
say, well, in that case, then I'm not sending my child to school at all.
36:50
And you could get some long-term absences result from that, which,
36:54
you know, I mean, that's a very real possibility, which I think the government
36:58
needs to consider in this.
37:01
And if anything, would that lead to more suspensions and more bureaucracy and more?
37:05
And you have then the broken relationship, the broken social contract between
37:09
that parental unit and the school. And I've seen that often.
37:12
And therefore, there has to be that discussion, that hard discussion that says
37:16
to you, these are the rules of the school.
37:18
And what the government need to do is start backing schools and saying,
37:22
you know, schools are professionals.
37:24
I don't tell my dentist how to drill teeth. I don't tell my doctor how to use a stethoscope.
37:28
I am tired of people second guessing what we do. We are academics.
37:32
Now, I use a mixture of behaviorism mixed with constructivism,
37:35
mixed with, I have to be honest, I'm a bit of an old school skinner.
37:38
I myself, I do like behaviorism. And when I did my master's degree in education,
37:42
I spotted some of the things that I do as a teacher that work for me.
37:46
And one of the reasons they work for me is because I'm a neurodivergent teacher. I have routines.
37:50
I've got very strict routines. I've got a very strict way of doing things.
37:53
I've got ways that actually help me.
37:55
And the majority of children who are neurodiverse will comment and say,
37:58
sir, I like the way you do things.
38:00
Because I am strict, but I'm also compassionate. it. And that's what needs to
38:03
be adhered to is that they are children after all, they're allowed to make mistakes.
38:07
But the problem is, same as adults, if you do not acknowledge that you're making
38:11
a mistake, you cannot correct the behavior.
38:14
I never got suspended again afterwards because I didn't want the humiliation
38:17
of my parents, but I had to reflect.
38:18
And we even have a room you call reflection, which I joke about because the
38:22
kids don't reflect in reflection. They just go in there and they go,
38:24
why are you in here? It's not my phone.
38:26
Everybody else is talking. And you're like, they take no, we're not talking
38:30
about people taking any reflection.
38:32
But hey, look, when we have people in charge of the country who weren't partying,
38:35
but were partying, we've got members of the royal family. you're like taking
38:38
photographs inappropriately.
38:40
I'm sorry, but we have to ask a serious question about actual standards and behavior.
38:45
And I think the people in education sometimes are guardkeepers going,
38:48
what is going on? Is anybody telling the truth right here? Is anybody?
38:53
I just feel, I'm sounding like a very old school, ultra conservative, and I'm not.
38:57
I'm quite a liberal guy. No, no, no. I just feel as if it is harder to be a
39:03
person who is an educator,
39:05
who is upholding very high standards when you constantly look around at you
39:09
at, you know, parent ringing up and saying, my child's sick today, and they're not sick.
39:13
It's just become the basic standards of people's behaviours.
39:18
Talking about young people on the buses, young people in manners.
39:23
There's something societally rotten at the moment, and I can't put my finger on it.
39:28
And it's lack of pride. Even the uniform, my child's uniform has got nothing
39:31
to do with their education. Yes, it does.
39:34
Absolutely. It's about pride. It's about how they look, how they think,
39:38
how they view themselves, how their self-esteem is.
39:41
And you can almost spot it sometimes that you are uniformed with pride.
39:44
You are proud to be at the school.
39:46
You are proud of your work, proud of your work.
39:49
Pride of work and i think we're losing that and for me
39:52
the labour government's not arresting the netliness they're
39:55
trying to sort of do something that looks like doing a policy but
39:58
we need a root and branch discussion about the purpose of
40:01
education because they think the purpose of education is now changing
40:04
nappy brushing kids teeth disciplining children
40:07
and then we're becoming the surrogate parent and that's not
40:10
far on parents because then when we do those things parents then
40:13
attack us for doing the very things we're told we need to
40:15
do so we're caught between the rocking our place so parents and
40:18
government need to have this conversation because we're caught in a civil
40:21
war between parents and government but there are different demands
40:24
and we're trying to get the porridge just right the goldilocks
40:27
moment of trying to meet the needs of ofsted and government and making sure
40:31
that we're doing our job while at the same time sometimes one side of our brain's
40:35
going i don't want to follow this policy because it's absolutely nuts and it's
40:38
not going to work yeah yeah so so you know we're the moral guardians of values
40:43
and and for young people and i think i I think that's what we should be.
40:47
Lucy, you mentioned resources a little bit earlier when you were talking about this.
40:51
What do you see as the problem as far as resources are concerned with this proposal?
40:57
Well, the first problem I would say is that it says in the article that they
41:02
would expect the students to be provided with work that was the work they will
41:06
be missing out on in the classroom so that they don't miss any lessons.
41:10
And there's then no need to catch up, they say, like, this is a great thing.
41:14
Did they realise what work needs to be done? I mean, I remember being,
41:18
you know, sitting down, quickly checking an email, you know, in the break time.
41:21
Oh, Harry's not going to be in my lesson today because he's in the internal
41:24
exclusion room. I've got to provide work.
41:27
So my break became printing off work for him to do, then writing a little explanation.
41:32
You'll find how to do it in the text.
41:34
These things don't happen readily. You're not going to have an expert in all
41:38
fields in that room supervising those students. and you're also going to have
41:42
multiple students in that room. It's not going to be one room per child.
41:46
They're not going to be held in cells with one adult supervising them one-to-one education.
41:51
This is going to be a group of kids who are all out for behaviour reasons and
41:55
very often they still tend to mess about in those rooms.
41:59
They're not easy rooms. Anybody who has to do isolation room or reflection room
42:03
duties or anything will say,
42:05
oh God, period three, I'm in the isolation room and they dread it. They don't want to do it.
42:09
So these aren't, you know, I think the idea that children will go there and
42:13
then they will sit there very nicely and they will do their work and they will
42:15
go, I'm never going to do that again because it was awful.
42:19
It's just for the birds. And so you've got to find teachers,
42:22
you've got to find the space, you've got to have the work.
42:24
You've always got to, you would have to just always have an option in your lesson
42:28
for work to be taken to that room.
42:31
So that means more planning because you plan to deliver a lesson to teach how to do something.
42:37
And if you just throw the work at them and say, get on with this,
42:40
they can't. So the idea always was we tried all different things at school.
42:43
We had packs, you know, work packs that you could give so that teachers didn't
42:47
have to waste their break times and things trying to find works for students
42:51
to do. But that doesn't work because then they've missed the lesson.
42:54
You know, we want children to come to their lessons, to engage with their lessons,
42:58
to try and do the work that they do. And I was not perfect at this myself as a student.
43:03
So, you know, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it will work perfectly,
43:06
but that is the aim and that should be the aim.
43:09
And the personal responsibility element of it should come like me with my GCSEs.
43:15
I massively underperformed on what I could have done because I didn't see it as important enough.
43:20
I've always owned that as an adult. I've always said, well, that was my choice. That was what I did.
43:24
So I don't have. And then I made up for it because I joined the Navy.
43:28
I didn't go to university because I didn't do well enough. And then I had to
43:31
do a degree while I was bringing up children.
43:33
And, you know, but you do it. You have to take personal responsibility.
43:37
And that is lacking nowadays.
43:39
That is something that the government seems to be encouraging abdication of
43:43
at all levels at all times.
43:45
You know, we can fix this for you.
43:47
It's not your fault. And some of the reason, you know, you said about...
43:51
The society, you know, the attitudes have changed.
43:55
And I can't remember the term that you used, but you said it's sort of everything's changed.
44:00
And parenting has changed. I mean, I was in a coffee shop yesterday and these
44:04
people had all gone to meet up with their kids.
44:06
They just let their children run wild. It was like a soft play centre,
44:10
but it was a coffee shop with hot food and hot drinks being carried around.
44:13
And, you know, there just seems to be a sort of an abdication.
44:16
I think people, the attitude towards discipline has changed in society, in parenting.
44:24
It's expected to be changed in schools, but we're still expected to be able
44:28
to deliver high quality lessons to all students and all students should meet
44:32
their expected levels of progress.
44:34
And that's fine because that should be the case. But behaviour is what underpins that.
44:38
And that's what's stopping those targets from being achieved.
44:41
And some of the changes are positive. Some societal changes are positive.
44:44
I mean, I'm no longer, people like me are no longer kind.
44:48
I'm better understood. And that's where I think some arguments fall down.
44:51
We're not meeting the child's needs.
44:53
No, we are meeting the child's needs. You just keep changing the goalposts of
44:56
what the child's needs are. What are the child's needs? Could you please tell
44:59
me? And then can I meet them?
45:00
Is it physically possible to meet them? There's such a demand culture and a
45:03
marketization culture.
45:05
It's kind of capitalism meets education. You know, you can get what you want.
45:08
I can walk in, as I said, baristic style education.
45:12
I want school to meet my my needs my way
45:15
that way because i can order stuff online on amazon
45:18
i can order my education from you and and it's like that service economy when
45:22
you don't get what you want i'll complain i mean now the head teacher has become
45:25
like you know that old thing with people who walk and go like i'm all satisfied
45:29
with the service can i see the manager please you know that and i'm going to
45:32
get you into trouble and and the poor head teachers these days are fielding
45:35
questions from parents who are going straight to the head teacher and you're going,
45:38
Talk to me, not the headteacher, if you want.
45:41
Why don't I speak to the headteacher? I'm getting you into trouble.
45:44
I'm going to go to the manager because I'm not going to provide the service.
45:47
It's that culture of kind of shout loudly, get what you want.
45:52
Bullying is bullying. We're at a stage now where I went to school,
45:55
the teachers were the bullies.
45:57
Now we're being bullied, and neither is right. Don't get me wrong.
46:00
I had horrible, horrible teachers.
46:02
No disrespect to them. They were hiding behind teaching, throwing objects at
46:07
me, dusters come flying at you.
46:09
And when you think of it now, I respected them. I was scared of them.
46:13
And when people say, you know, we've lost that, but those that advocate bringing
46:15
back corporate punishment, capital punishment, corporate punishment,
46:18
stuff like that, I don't agree with them.
46:19
I don't agree with them because I don't think that's the solution.
46:21
And stricter is not always better.
46:23
It has got to do with finding the balance between, and I think we swung far
46:27
too much, I think you're suggesting, Lucy, we swung far too much into feral territory.
46:31
And then when we come into schools and say to kids sit down
46:34
sit still i mean sit down and sit still i'm looking at my year sevens
46:37
at the moment and they are literally like and it's
46:40
like they're wired absolutely wired it's like
46:43
the something disney would do like what do you
46:46
call it two frame roger rabbit you know they're all like roger rabbit right
46:49
i'm like just sit sit work
46:52
calm and they don't have it because their lives are just like
46:55
and then all of a sudden we compose structure
46:58
school timings lessons kids don't they
47:02
don't have that any longer they basically are micromanaged
47:06
to a certain extent that their lives are not their responsibility so when they're
47:10
late it's it's not their fault they're just default setting is when they're
47:14
when they're naughty it's not their fault and their parents will go you're not
47:17
meeting my child's needs not their fault or the schools aren't providing for
47:21
my child not their fault and you go right okay somewhere in the middle, it may be both.
47:25
Somewhere in the middle, schools do need to work harder, but we've only got
47:28
a certain pool of resources. We've got a staffing crisis, a funding crisis.
47:32
Can I just pick up on two points, JP, there?
47:36
I mean, the first one, and Lucy, you've suggested similar, is that behavior
47:41
and personal responsibility, both from the child and the parent,
47:45
has deteriorated in the modern world.
47:49
It would be relatively easy for any of us to go back into the past and find
47:57
an almost identical speech or statements made by each generation about the young people at that time.
48:06
So if you could go back to the 1920s, I was only the other day reading something
48:12
very along these lines, you know, talking about how responsibility has been eroded.
48:18
Parents don't do their job anymore. Young people are feral.
48:21
The world is falling apart. And
48:24
you could do the same in the late 19th century, and so on and so forth.
48:30
So is this just another repeat of the regular human cycle,
48:36
natural as it is, that middle-aged people bemoan the behavior of young people,
48:42
and then at some point those young people become responsible because they grow
48:47
up and that actually all we're doing is just repeating history.
48:52
So that's one question. And the second one is about resources.
48:57
Lucy, you said about the fact that this suspended student couldn't be in one individual room,
49:07
but I would contend that the policy wouldn't work if you had lots of young people
49:14
in a room, like often happens in reflection rooms or removal rooms or whatever you want to call them.
49:20
Because in practice, imagine you had a fight in school and two children were
49:26
suspended because you took the view that both of them were responsible for,
49:31
you know, being violent.
49:33
And then they would be both suspended and then both put in the same room together.
49:38
Sat side by side with one another for two or three days.
49:43
Now, I mean, I'm a very experienced teacher, but I wouldn't fancy that gig.
49:48
I wouldn't fancy having to manage that situation.
49:51
In practice, those young people who were suspended would need to be in separate
49:56
rooms, I think, most of the time.
50:00
And if that wasn't the case, then you'd have chaos in school.
50:05
And as you say, Lucy, it would be very difficult to manage those young people.
50:09
So there are really big resource implications.
50:13
There's an awful lot of schools do not have those facilities.
50:16
So they do not have a plethora of separate rooms
50:20
and if you have separate rooms you probably need
50:23
separate supervision or the very least
50:26
you need a way of make those young people visible to the supervisor and that
50:31
means extra salary costs because you've got to employ somebody to do that and
50:37
somebody that's skilled enough to do that it's not an easy job it's not just
50:41
somebody It's not being like exam invigilation.
50:44
You know, you've got to be really skilled in managing young people with complex
50:48
needs and very emotionally dysregulated in many ways.
50:53
So none of that money, as far as I can see, is heading towards schools any time
50:59
soon. So I think there's a real issue there.
51:02
But what about those two points about the, we're just repeating the same old
51:07
cycle of young people aren't what they used to be.
51:10
And where are the resources coming from?
51:14
Well, safeguarding would be a concern for me. If you're going to have children
51:18
in individual rooms, like cells with one person with them, I think there are
51:23
safeguarding concerns there.
51:25
Not just for the student, because there are very few teachers who would pose
51:30
a safeguarding risk, but for the teacher's own protection as well.
51:35
And it's not a comfortable way to be in school.
51:40
I wouldn't want to spend a whole day one-to-one with one particular student.
51:45
I just don't think that would be a healthy environment.
51:48
So I pictured what I know schools might be able to cobble together,
51:54
and that's how I'm going to put it, a headteacher or a deputy head who's,
51:58
you know, got sort of paperwork to catch up on for the day, being told,
52:02
right, you're going to have the.
52:03
You know, you're going to, if you can go into the room with those kids and just
52:06
sit with them for the day.
52:08
Because that's what we're down to now in terms of staffing that,
52:11
you know, we used to have people who ran the isolation room.
52:15
There was somebody employed literally to do that. And she was very,
52:18
very good, actually, but couldn't afford her anymore.
52:21
The same as the library, the same as the teaching assistants,
52:24
you know, same as all of these jobs have been taken out and taken out.
52:27
You know, when I left school, you know, they didn't replace me.
52:31
And in fact, when I left, they were hoping that it would help save a teacher
52:34
their job. And then they were made redundant a year later.
52:38
So, you know, those problems with staffing in schools where they're already
52:42
stretched is just enormous.
52:44
Not to mention room space. I mean, you know, you're either taking up a whole
52:47
enormous classroom or a small cupboard space.
52:50
Just how is this going to be done? I don't see how it can be done without an
52:54
expenditure. Very, very quickly...
52:57
There was a school featured on the TV years ago. I think it was on one of the
53:01
education-type programs or something like that.
53:03
They had an actual sub-school within their grounds.
53:07
And students with behavior problems went to this sub-school.
53:11
And they all went, mixed-year groups, everything. But they all went and they learned the same thing.
53:16
I've got a feeling it was run a bit like a primary school. We're going to do
53:19
English now. We're going to do maths now.
53:20
Nobody moved around. And every single child wanted to go back to the main school.
53:25
And so they worked hard to do it. And when they got back, they worked hard to
53:28
stay back because they didn't want that trouble again.
53:31
You know, so maybe we should be looking at more innovative ideas that still
53:35
requires extra space. But that could be an answer.
53:39
And yeah, in history, throughout history, people have always bemoaned younger
53:42
people. But I do feel this goes beyond that.
53:44
I do feel that it goes because actually what we're not bemoaning now is just the younger people.
53:49
We're bemoaning how society, well, I suppose they would have complained and
53:52
said rock and roll is the, you know, the scourge of all evils.
53:55
And you said the TV, you know, people said when you were younger that TV was
53:59
going to ruin young people's lives.
54:00
So I guess we've always had that. But it just feels more meaningful now.
54:04
You know, they were just passing things which were meant to say we were better.
54:08
And that's how people who grew up in the 30s thought we were better than the
54:11
people who grew up in the 50s and things like that. I just think it's better.
54:14
I think it's measurably declining.
54:17
JP, last word from you. Yeah, I think Lucy's correct. The structure's changing.
54:22
And yes, we have become the grumpy old people who are complaining about the
54:26
next generation coming behind. Speak to yourself.
54:29
I do find myself that. But there is this quote, and this quote,
54:33
I always use this quote myself to show you that things change, but they don't change.
54:37
The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority.
54:41
They show disrespect for elders and love chatter in a place of exercise.
54:44
Children are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise
54:48
when elders enter the room.
54:49
They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up daintries at
54:52
the table, cross their legs, and tyrannise their teachers.
54:57
And that's attributed to Socrates from 2,500 years ago. Things are a bit rough in his day.
55:05
Well, so you're right. I mean, it's a really, really silly point,
55:08
Carl. I think you're right. Every generation says things are getting progressively worse.
55:12
And some things have got better. The bulk of our children are brilliant.
55:14
But it's the pattern. I think Lucy's correct also. So there is a definite pattern.
55:17
I think technology, the way the households are, the way that homes are,
55:21
the contract, social contract with education in schools, there is something broken at the moment.
55:26
And that's what the government needs to fix, is that social contract.
55:30
And I think the underfunding, the way that we've been undermined,
55:33
they need to put support back in education, elevate education,
55:36
and stop skirting around the edges and literally say, what's the plan for this
55:39
country? What's the plan for?
55:41
Because I don't think they have a top-down version of what kind of society they want to have.
55:45
And we are, we have, because we want to turn out, you know, well-rounded you
55:49
know, reflective, educated young people and we're trying our damnedest to do
55:53
that and we don't, as the comment said from Kyle, we don't suspend rightly because
55:57
You know, we don't suspend because we hate the children.
56:00
I think there's a, sometimes there's that feeling of we hate the children.
56:03
Why do we hate children much?
56:05
I am punishing a child sometimes. I don't want to punish them,
56:07
but I feel I have to because I have to teach them that lesson.
56:11
There's the irony, isn't it?
56:12
What would the lesson be taught in internally suspending a child?
56:16
Well, I mean, that's true. And it's actually every time a head teacher suspends
56:20
a pupil, they are in fact shooting themselves in the foot. because to a degree,
56:25
they're judged by statistics and statistics can sometimes damn them.
56:30
And in this case, if they suspend a lot, it could be argued that they are,
56:34
you know, not doing their job properly.
56:37
So headteachers do not suspend lightly.
56:42
I realise that we've got to wrap things up now, apparently.
56:46
Yeah, Lucy, sorry. Last word to Lucy. Yeah, no, no. I just wanted to talk again
56:51
about our show sponsors because I think it's really important.
56:54
So this show is brought to you in partnership with Hachette Learning,
56:57
publishers of professional development, books and resources that support great
57:01
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57:03
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to explore the full range of titles. Thank you.
57:13
Brilliant. Thank you, Lucy. Great way to finish. Thank you very much.
57:16
There's loads more we could talk about, but I think generally the opinion that
57:20
we've shared today is that there are some serious concerns about this proposal.
57:24
It doesn't seem to be the priority in schools at the moment,
57:28
and therefore we are worried that this is a headline grabber rather than addressing the real issues.
57:34
Thank you so much, everybody. That was brilliant, OK?
57:36
And I hope you enjoyed Points of View and can join us again on the show another time.
57:41
You've been listening to Teachers Talk Radio. Tune in live and listen back at ttradio.com.