Latest / WoT Spoilers / Eastward the Wind Blew - A Memory of Light ch1 - EP594

Transcript

Eastward the Wind Blew - A Memory of Light ch1 - EP594 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers Podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Chapter one of A Memory of Light. The last time
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: we're going to do the paragraph.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sad about that.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: It Is a little bit, wow. It's a little bit hurtful.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit hurtful.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: It's a little bit hurtful.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I feel hurt. I dislike the idea that this is
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: the last time we're doing this. Oh, fortunately, we can
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: distract ourselves from doing that by doing Patreons first, though.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, definitely. I will say, is this the same first
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: paragraph as in the first book? Because I think in
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the first book, it's also the Mountains of Mist. So
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I think it's actually identical to the Eye of the
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: World paragraph. Not just in form, but actually in its entirety.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, because the wind comes down to tug
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: on Rand's cloak, right? So it has to pass through
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: the mountains of mist in order to do that scene
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: setting thing.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Let me look that up really quick. Opening up chapter one,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: an empty road. Yep, mountains of mist.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: That's it. There it is.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Fullest of circles.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Well done. I will say that is a good way
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: to start this.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: For Jordan.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: For Sanderson, I mean.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Sanderson likes structure, so I can see him getting the
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: geometry of this.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Sure, the wheel.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: That's part of how he sticks the landing, is because
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: he understands the geometry of finishing the wheel, closing the loop,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: all of that jazz.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Right, understanding that you have to seal the bore back
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: up again and have the Dark One in prison so
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: that you can do that again in the next stage
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: and the cycle can repeat, because that's really what this
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: is about, is the cycle repeating. Yeah.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, Patreons... We figured, you know, start of
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: a new book. It was probably time to check on
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: how many Patreons we've gotten since we last checked in.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: And the answer is four. We have four new Patreons.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I always figure the beginning of a new book is
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: an episode a lot of people are going to tune into.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And, you know,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: this is the last beginning of a new book.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Right. It was a beginning.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: It's a ending. Yeah. So we would like to thank
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: David Reinhart. Thank you very much.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: And thank you, Celathina.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's pretty. I like that. Celathina. We would also
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: like to thank Bear Puns, spelled like the wise one, Bear.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Excellent. That's clever on multiple levels. That's well done. And
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Craig Thompson. Thank you, Craig.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you all so much. And of course, thank you
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: to everyone who is currently a Patreon and who has
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: ever been a Patreon. We really appreciate it. all of
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: that support, even as we're, you know, struggling with winding
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: this up. You continue to give us good feels about,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: you know, powering through this ending that we are beginning.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I am so excited to complete this journey, right? Like
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: in a way that like to point at that and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: be like, look, that exists as something whole in a
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: way that like I imagine an author who finished their
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: series before they died would feel.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: Too soon too soon i was trying to think of
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: somebody and i was like oh my god jordan no
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: uh george martin no fuck rothfuss no um wait who's
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: actually completed their series.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Tolkien tolkien there we go tolkien yes i'm imagining the
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: way tolkien field when he came to the end of
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: his series and his journey Yeah, totally.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: It's not like we're going to avoid it or stop it.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: The momentum of the podcast is there. And it's partially
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: there because of everyone on Patreon, past and present. Like,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: you are the momentum that keeps this ball rolling so
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: that way it will cross the finish line. Like, yes,
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: our friendship is definitely the fire, but y'all really help
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: with the momentum aspect. So thank you, everyone. But particularly
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: those four, because they're the new ones.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: The rest of y'all hopefully have gotten shouted out at
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: some point or another.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: If we've ever not shouted you out, now is the
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: time to, you know, tell us. Because, you know, we're
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: looking at spring of next year being when it's over. So, like,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: get your corrections in now.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I will not always claim that I've navigated Patreon correctly.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: They do change the UI on me. I think I've
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: got everybody, but that doesn't mean... that they don't occasionally
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: change the way I keep track of that and that
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: somebody didn't fall through the cracks, especially in the beginning.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I feel like I did not have quite as of
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: a foolproof method of keeping track of who I thanked
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: and who I hadn't. So sorry if I missed you.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: I really apologize.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: An attempt was made.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I think with that out of the way,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: we do kind of have to start our last beginning.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: I don't even know who that is. I guess it's you.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I guess, yeah. It starts with Rand. Yeah.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: So, yeah. Congratulations. You pulled the stick.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you. So, chapter one, Eastward the Wind Blue. And
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: this is the blight tree. Yeah. One of several. There's
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: actually several different blight trees. This one has the eye
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: that kind of hangs down. This one has.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like there's a moon behind it and
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: then the tree makes it into the ancient symbol of
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Aes Sedai. And also the tree has like a fruit
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: hanging on it. And I think that the arc of
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: the tree icons is like diseased and dead and reborn
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: or something like that. So I think this is the
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: reborn one, but I'd have to check the catalog.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: No, I think the reborn one looks more like a
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: flowering tree. I think this is sort of this one
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: looks blighted to me.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: OK, well, I'd have to go check the specifics. But yeah,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: there's a whole story arc that's told by the tree icons.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe you could just go check that now. There is
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: one more way to delay actually.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Before I read this thing. So let's see. There is
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: there's dead tree that looks sort of like staghorns coming up.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: There is the great tree and that looks like it's
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: got leaves on it. And then this one's the blighted tree.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, cool.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there's the three, there's the dead tree, the
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: blighted tree, and the great tree. And so there's those three,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: so it starts off blighted, I think it dies, and
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: then I think it comes back fully bloomed.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Right, because that's basically what Rand does.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: He goes insane, he kills himself, and he comes back
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: as Jesus.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we can call it, this is Darth Rand tree.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Right, even though this is the chapter where we really
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: see the full circle-ness of Rand passing out, so... Almost
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: feels like the wrong tree icon, but who am I
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: to judge? There's some meta commentary.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel like we're talking more about
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: the last battle and the progress that way, right?
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Sure, the battle hasn't started yet.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the world is blighted. Because there's that moment, too,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: when he gets the pain, when he feels the land.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: True, true. The blight is still present.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: The wheel of time turns and ages come and pass,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: it birth comes again In one age, called the Third
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Age by some, an age yet to come, an age
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: long past, a wind rose in the mountains of mist.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: But it was a beginning. Eastward the wind blew, descending
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: from lofty mountains and coursing over desolate hills. It passed
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: into the place known as the Westwood, an area... that
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: had once flourished with pine and leather leaf. Here the
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: wind found little more than tangled underbrush, thick save round
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: an occasional towering oak. Bows looked stricken by disease, bark
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: peeling free, branches drooping. Elsewhere needles had fallen from pines,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: draping the ground in a brown blanket. None of the
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: skeletal branches of the westwood put forth buds. North and
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: eastward the wind blew, across underbrush that crunched and crackled
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: as it shook. It was night and scrawny foxes picked
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: over the rotting ground, searching in vain for prey or carrion.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: No spring birds had come to call, and, most telling,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: the howl of wolves had gone silent across the land.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: The wind blew out from the forest and across Terran Ferry.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: What was left of it? The town had been a
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: fine one by local standards. Dark buildings tall above the
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: redstone foundation, a cobbled street built at the mouth of
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: the land known as the Two Rivers. The smoke had
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: long since stopped rising from the burned buildings, but there
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: was little left of the town to rebuild. Feral dogs
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: hunted through the rubble for meat. They looked up as
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: the wind passed, their eyes hungry. The wind crossed the
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: river eastward. Fierce clusters of refugees carrying torches walked the
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: long road from Barilon to Whitebridge, despite the late hour.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: They were sorry groups, with heads bowed, shoulders huddled. Some
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: bore the coppery skin of Damani, Their worn clothing displaying
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: the hardships of crossing the mountains with little in the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: way of supplies. Others came from farther off. Terriboners with
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: haunted eyes above dirty veils. Farmers and their wives from
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: northern Giladon. All had heard rumor that in Andor there
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: was food. In Andor there was hope. So far, they
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: had yet to find either. Okay, I could read this
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: whole wind thing, but it goes on for a long time.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I'll read the whole wind, but that's...
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I think, where I'm going to stop.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: It keeps going and going and going. It's a good
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: long wind. He really just luxuriates in this last beginning
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: that he gets to write.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: It's definitely a bit of a recap, too. Just like,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: everyone's desperate, everyone's dying. There is fox and ravens in
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: this intro, which I think is great.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. We've got foxes, we've got ravens, we've got wolves,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: we've got fire, we've got soldiers.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Fuck the people of the Terran Ferry, by the way. Yeah,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: fuck the Terran Ferry. They were weird.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: For sure, for sure.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Always weird. Always weird.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: They deserve that, for sure. Based on what we learned
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: in book one.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And then, yeah, we, you know, talk about
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: how the last battle is not hope, but it is
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: a place to go. We actually get to the field
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: of Marilor. And it's the end. It's the end. And
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: then there's laughter because the dragon reborn has rediscovered laughter
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: and tears and is catching up with his bros.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: An accepted death. And I think that's all that, like
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: he's now able to sort of laugh in the face
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: of death. And that's a really important thing for him
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: to have going into the last battle. Right.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, think about the first wind, right? The first
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: wind finds him twitchy and afraid on the road, right?
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: When nothing is wrong aside from a slightly weird winter.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: And there's a Murdraal stalking him, but, like, whatever. Now
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: the wind is coming to him with this promise.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Of, like... Whatever. Just a Murdraal, whatever.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: But, like, now the wind is coming with this, like,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: promise of death. He's in the middle of a war camp.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: They're anticipating the end of all things. And he is relaxed, right?
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: How he has changed from that frightened boy a mere
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: two and a half-ish years ago. Dr. Pants, nothing we
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: can't nail to a toy. LAUGHTER So, yeah, Rand is
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: we're in Rand's head and he's learning about Perrin's experience,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: thinking about how hard and yet soft Perrin is. And,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: you know, we're just really getting, you know, that thing
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: we talk about with Jordan, where we are like, you
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: can tell more things about a character when you're in
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: someone else's head than when you're in their head sometimes.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: And I think that he's he's really trying his hand
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: at that. Sanderson is really trying his hand at that here,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: even though it's, you know, a very Jordanian move.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: And I would say this is a better reunion than
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: any of the ones we've gotten so far. This is
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: better written. It's more authentic. It's like someone looked at
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: the ones from the last book and said, OK, we
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: can do better. That was bad. Like, let's actually have
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Rand and Perrin like be a little affectionate, but be
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: themselves instead of parodies of themselves.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: And like Sanderson knows that book four is some of
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: the best stuff. So having Perrin quickly recap the best
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: parts of the Two Rivers arc in book four is like,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's a good story. You know?
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: And it's also the last time they were really together, right? Like,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: because it was, you know, basically weren't together in book six,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: and then Perrin got thrown out to go home, basically,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: from that point.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Right, Perrin ran away to go home, came back with
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: some people from home, got thrown out, collected everyone, right? Like,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: it's a whole situation. Yeah, this feels like Jordan definitely had, like,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: a vague idea and had made, like, a back-of-the-napkin sketch
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: of the scene, and then Sanderson just had to, like...
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: fill it in this doesn't feel like Pierce Anderson this
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: feels very much like one of the more collaborative scenes
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: because it almost writes itself with just the way Jordan
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: set stuff up I bet he had already sketched out
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: like there's going to be a reunion where we get
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: silly hijinks and it's like the three boys but you
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: know a whole book series later right we have to
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: try to capture some of that eye of the world
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: innocence in order to like open this book in the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: right tone.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I don't like my ball war slander here I know.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Did you catch that? Was prone to gravitate towards those
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: holding the greatest power. Really? Really?
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: He wants to see an effective leader who uses his
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: information to do things. That is not the one with
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: the most power.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: It's the one with the most power as Balwer reckons power, right?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: In Balwer's world, information is power. So he goes to
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: whoever has the most power, i.e. information, and like, But yes,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: he doesn't gravitate towards whoever has the biggest stick. He
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: gravitates to whoever has the biggest spy network. Not at
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: all related to stick size. Yeah, it's a little bit slanderous.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit slanderous. Perrin knows better. Perrin knows better.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Also, the statement he had loaned Balwar to Rand, so
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that means that Balwar was very clear about the fact
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: that he is your spy. person who is willing to
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: go out on loan for the end of the world
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: but does intend to come back to your service once
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: the end of the world is sorted so what does
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: that say about you perrin my dude.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Rand will also be dead so that's you.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Know i mean yeah but like still.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: He's on loan until you die he's.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Clearly going right back to perrin you know he's not
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: like and then i'm gonna go on my way with
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: the dragon reborn signature on my resume he's like i'm
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: coming back Like, I am on loan. I am not
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: trying to leave permanently.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: You know, he's thinking about that dream with Lanfear.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Interesting that Lanfear and Dream and Perrin are all being
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: mentioned in the same sentence together.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Because so far we haven't seen any of that plot
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: line yet. The Perrin-Lanfear, that's all this book, 100% this book.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Right, right. And I believe that we're technically seeing it here.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I'm getting my red string out.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: This is your first pushpin right there?
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Starting that first circle? All right. Well, you mentioned Perrin,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: you mentioned Mirren, you mentioned dreams. That's three strings I'm making. Yep.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I see nothing wrong with this logic.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I feel like we have such an argument here with
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: the author's statements versus what's in the book. And I
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: feel like we are arguing for the book.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I don't think that the artist gets to tell the
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: book what to do with its life after it's been published.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: You just, you don't get to control that.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: And then there's this moment where we know all the
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Aiel are getting spearheads instead of swords being made. Power
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: rot items, right? And he's like, oh, all the Ashmon
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: are going for spears, which makes sense twofold, right? Because
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: you can make twice as many or four times as
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: many spearheads for every sword. But also, the Aiel are
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the better fighters. And they don't say that.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes so much sense to give the people
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: who are more effective with less metal per weapon more weapons. Like,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: that is such a force multiplier. But yeah, Per and
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Zashimon are running on fumes trying to keep up with
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Yael's demand, which is great.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And then in between here, there's a lot of, like, Rand, Lewis,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Theron kind of Sanderson telling us how the memory meld worked. Right.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Rand had never tasted seawater. Louis Theron had knowing facts
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: like that greatly discomfort him once. Now he had learned
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: to accept that as part of him like this. He
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: has this knowledge of being a different person and he
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: kind of has inherited those experiences, even if they are
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: in a bit of a dreamlike state. Right. Right.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I also noticed what I think is a fan name.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: There's a maiden, Barilana.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Let me see if I can pull that one up.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: I thought I caught them all, but I may have
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: missed one.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: It's in the italicized part. It's literally the person who
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: says Hissmiths can make four spearheads for every sword. Beralina.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Beralina. Ah, I see. Let me look her up.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, Dr. Pants quick on the draw here. First appeared
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: in Lord of Chaos.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. Okay.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Man, I love you nerds. Got one nerd in chat.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: No.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Other nerds that made a website.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: So she's just, um, I yield number two, number 22
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: or whatever, but she has existed since before.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: So not a fan of the real time. So you're right.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: You've caught all of them. I found a false negative,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: false positive.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But that was good. That was a good catch.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Cause I, I read what right past that, but yeah,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: this is, it's funny. Cause she's like, well, we've got
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: a one other mention and it's like, obviously again, Sanderson
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: just plumbing the depths for names and, I wonder why
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: he didn't do... Honestly, I wish he'd done more of that.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: More of, like, bringing back one mention.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Plus, like, these fan inserts are fine if you need them,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: but it feels like a lot of those inserts could
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: have been replaced with callbacks, and I would have been
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: happier with callbacks because that's the kind of thing I
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: really loved about the early books when we figured out that, like,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Gelb was a callback, right?
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: Like.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, totally. A couple of those other characters that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: you encounter, like the.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Millie Skane.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: The girl with the burning. Millie Skane. Yeah, it was
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: a callback.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Those those sorts of characters having them come back around.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I think we're more fun than. Oh, yeah. Here's another
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Easter egg for one person that won't make sense going
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: forward in the future. I will. And you don't want
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: to stop introducing new people in the final book because
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: the world stops growing. It stops feeling real. So I
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: get that you still want to meet new people as
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: you go through the book, but still more callbacks, more callbacks.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's kind of cool to have Rand and
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Perrin talking relatively openly about their relative experiences with dreams
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: and memories.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Communication in my wheel of time, right? It feels anachronistic,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: but it is kind of cool as a sign of
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: how they've both grown into accepting themselves and accepting their
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: powers and accepting what their role is in the apocalypse.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: To have them talking at all, frankly, about their experiences,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: even if it's a little bit roundabout, it's still way
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: more direct than anything else. It's nice. It's nice to see.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: And I love Rand being like, so he almost said
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: smell there because he's a wolf.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. And in this, we get a little bit of
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Rand's debate in his head over what to do in
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: the last battle, right? Basically, do I seal the Dark
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: One away again? or can I dare kill him?
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Right. Which for me was never very suspenseful because I'm like, no,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: the most honor is in taking your enemy prisoner. And
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: like the Aiel taught you that, like that's a core
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: principle that you learned being with the Aiel is not
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: to kill him. Let's take him prisoner. There's more honor
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: in that. Like, that's what you're going to do.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when I first read it, I think my first
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: thought was just you can't have the yin-yang duality thing
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: if you take half of it out. Like, that's just, like,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: against fundamental cosmic principles of every single fantasy and real
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: magic system that has ever existed. You can't delete evil.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: That's just not a thing. Entropy will always exist.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: And we've been taught this series about balance, not winning. Balance.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Exactly. So it's like as soon as he was like,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: what if I win permanently? I'm like, well, that that's
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: doomed to fail. That's dead on arrival. There's no way
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: that that plan is going to work. And then, yeah,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: once I was reminded of the, you know, honor system
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, yeah. And there's how you fix it. there's,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: there's this flaw in his plan. I yield you a toe.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: That's how you fix the flaw in the plan. You
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: capture because that's where honor is. Like it took me
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: a while, but I did arrive at that conclusion before
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: ranch did. It didn't happen to me all at once,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: but over the course of the book, I'm pretty sure
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: I got to that conclusion shortly before ranch did.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: So they're talking about everybody meeting and then the ground
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: shakes suddenly, right? The ground shakes in response to something
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: that the Disruption, right? And Rand felt it like a
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: painful muscle spasm. I love that because it's just, Rand
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: is one with the land.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And did you notice it happened right after he got
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: news that Elaine had been yoinked into an emergency meeting
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: with bad news, probably? Like he gets news that Elaine
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: has received probably complicated bad news and then the earthquake
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: happens and then he feels the muscle spasm. It's like,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: where did it start? Was it his emotional reaction that
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: made the land spasm? And that's really the dark one, right?
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Because it's the dark one attacking Camelon. There's some butterfly
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: effect spirals here.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: But also he's bonded to Elaine. And if Elaine is
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: having an emotional reaction, he's going to feel that emotional
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: reaction and then have a response to that as well. Right.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: And then maybe his pain from her pain is causing
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: the shaking of the ground.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Spirals upon spirals.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Cause and effect is really messed up here.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and normally I think that that's a silly fantasy
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: trope to have everything be connected like that, but reality
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: is literally getting thin and unraveling as the Dark One
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: gets closer and closer to the moment of conflict. The
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Field of Marilor is a place where the battle, where
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: time is much less warped than farther out. It's really appropriate,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: I think, that reality is just a little extra-tiverian-y. It
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: works for the sense of unreality that the last battle
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: is supposed to have.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: And then Rand's in shock because he's going to be
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: a father. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what that's like.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he apparently, this is one of the only times
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: that Rand ever acknowledges Luz Theron's loss of his children, right?
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: This is one of the critiques I've seen of Luz
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Theron throughout the years in the fandom. He only cares
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: about his wife. He does not care about.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: A single child he killed.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: He presumably had grandchildren because he was like, what, 300
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: or whatever?
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: He had a dynasty and supposedly he killed everyone he
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: was related to. And the only person he ever mourns,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: the only person Rand ever even thinks of in the
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: abstract is his wife. Like, I guess in the legends,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: it talks about his wife and children, but Rand never
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: thinks about that. And even now, even now, and he's like,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be a father. It's like, are you
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: not going to reflect on the fact that Luz Theron
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: remembers like ignoring the bodies of his own children? Like,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: It's a weird hole, but it is at least a
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: beginning of an acknowledgement of the fact that Luz Theron
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: was a father because of how Rand is like, well,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: this is different. This is different than my normal Luz
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Theron memories. This is visceral in a way that his
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: normal memory bleed over does not touch.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: But yet you notice in the series it all happens
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: before anyone can possibly have children. So we don't have
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to deal with that whole like being a parent thing.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Rand does get to be a bit of a
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: deadbeat dad savior for sure.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. For sure. Mm hmm. Kind of literally, right?
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: The dead part?
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: He does kind of literally die. It is sort of
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: a thing. I mean, yeah, the soul transmutes into a
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: body that has no connection whatsoever to anyone at all,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: but that doesn't even make sense to me. The body
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: swap is one of the least satisfying conclusions to a
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: mystery I've ever experienced.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, it was all set up from the
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: crossing of the streams. I know.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: And that's why I still accept it.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: There's some things I do not accept.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Land for your living. I simply do not accept. That
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: is simply like, no.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not in the book.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: The body swap, I have to accept. It's too built
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: into the intention of the author. I simply cannot, you know,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: like I have my own headcanon that I insist is
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: real about the lesbianism. But like the crossing of the
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: streams is like clearly something Jordan put a lot of
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: energy and thought into and how that was going to
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: transit into the body swap. I don't like it, but
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I am forced to accept that it is canon. And
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: it's funny, too, because he's like, I'm going to be
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: a father. And this is with respect to Elaine's children. Right.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, later that night, he goes off
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: to impregnate Avienda. It's like, oh, you're going to be
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: a father twice, actually.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he really is predicting the events of the night.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: There's dragon prophecies. That's what's going on there. I'm going
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: to be a dad tonight.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Right, right. Yeah, totally. Totally. So then, yeah, Perrin is like,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: if you want to know what's up with Elaine, I
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: have my own eyes and ears there since she's my monarch.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I got even better intel than Balwar. Isn't that neat?
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: So they head off to go figure out what's up
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: with Elaine without having to actually ask Elaine directly what's up.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Like you said, conversation and information sharing in my wheel
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: of time, I think not.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: It's happening a bit more than feels natural.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Maybe with, you know, on the same gender side, but
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: across genders, no way. There's walls there you can't breach.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, no, for sure. You have to spy on
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: your wife. How else do you know it's a real marriage?
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I wonder about Jordan and Harriet, man. Sometimes I wonder.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe they just really enjoy their mind games. Some people
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: are strange. According to that one song, anyway.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Well, only when you're a stranger.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: It's true. It's true.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: No, it certainly worked for them. That's it.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: No one can question that that seems to.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Work for them. So we switch to Egwene.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: POV switch over to Egwene. So Egwene is writing a
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: letter to Rand in one of the most productive ways
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: to write a letter, which is where you don't necessarily
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: intend to send it, but you're writing it out as
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: though you're just letting it all out so that way
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: you can organize your thoughts, get it on the page,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: look at it, and then consider hitting send or hitting delete.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: It's a really useful exercise when you have a big
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: important thing to say to someone in writing to just
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Have your first draft just be everything you want to say.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Just get it out there. Then editorialize for your second draft.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Sometimes even when I'm saying it in person, I do that.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Being a podcast editor has accelerated my ability to do
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: that quite a bit. I'll fix it in post, in pre,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: in present.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: I certainly I think I've cut down on the number
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: of ums I say. I don't know. You'll have to
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: tell me you're the editor.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: You think I pay attention to these kinds of things.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: It's like a frog in boiling water. I have no
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: idea what the temperature was five years ago. But no,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I actually have been, I mean, cause
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: you know, I do multiple podcasts and actually have been
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: reflecting on the different ways in which a different ones
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: of my co-hosts speak. And yeah, years of experience in
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: podcasting does show sometimes you do say less than you
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: used to for sure.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: And the editing as well. I think that's really where you, you,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: realize that you are the one making the work for yourself.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: And so then you get rid of that work on
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: the front end.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I had a teacher once who was in college who
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: was like, I wish every one of you had to
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: come down here and give a lecture so you would
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: understand how hard it is to just talk animatedly at
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: all your blank faces. You know, and I'm the one
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: student over there who's just head bobbing like I'm a
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: freaking bobblehead, you know, in a car, like glued to
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: the dashboard, just like absolutely headbanging with understanding. But yeah,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: he was like, I wish you guys would look like
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: you care. This is really hard. I wish you all
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: had to come down here and understand how difficult this is.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: So in that vein, I wish everyone who made a
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: podcast had to edit at least one episode. I think
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: you said that way back in the day. And my goodness,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: is it true?
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: No, it really, it saves you a lot of time
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: and effort.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Not saying it's bad to... to podcast with people who
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: don't know what they're doing. Like that's totally a valid
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: thing to do. It's just people who want to be
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: regular co-hosts should, should spend some time in the editing chair.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Just so you understand what's possible, what's not, and how
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: to like redo a retake and start over in a
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: way that like is helpful during the editing process.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: And leads to a clean cut. Not that I always
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: do it, but I think, you know, I try and
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: think about that every once in a while when I
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: really screw up.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Right, right. We both do. It's, really shows. So Gawain
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: is a cat. He comes in to the tent and
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Egwene says, so are you going to stay in this
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: time or are you going to go out again? And
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I'm like, is she literally talking to a cat?
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Aren't all warders like that? Kind of? A little bit?
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Warders are cats. I think they've been compared to cats before.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: So that makes sense.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, because witches have their familiars, and Aes Sedai
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: have their warders, so... It's true.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: It's true. So yeah, Gwen and Gawain go to check
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: on Elaine as a family visit, right? They use a
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: gateway to avoid the public eye, and.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: In that we arrive with Elaine going, I wonder why
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Jessamine isn't talking to me. I wish she would be
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: prompt about sending messages. And we, of course, know that
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: she's probably at that moment telling Talmanis that he's going
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: to die because she can't heal him, right? Like, that's
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: the reason why Jessamine hasn't sent you a message. It's
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: not because she's airheaded. It's because everything's on fire.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: And two of the other wise ones are dead. So
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: she doesn't have enough power to open a gateway. Right.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: She might be in charge, but that doesn't mean that
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: she has the charge. You know, in an electrical sense.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: And Jessamine is named for Jessamine Angelica.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: We checked on that in the Talmanis POV. And then
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: there's Serenia. Is that a name from the fan list?
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: This is the person who's going to go open a
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: gateway to Camelon and have the gif of the guy
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: delivering pizza to the room that's on fire. You know,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: that's the reason.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, where she's going to walk in and just realize,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: oh my God, everything's burning down. We got to do
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: something about that.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's going to be the one that goes running
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: back in going, oh, there's a problem. Houston, we have
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: a problem.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: She's named for Shannon Lieb. I feel like we've looked
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: her up as well.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, cool.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: That name sounds very familiar.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: So then Egwene asks for Elaine's perspective on the letter. Again,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: a very good step if you're trying to send an
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: important letter to someone. Getting another person's perspective on it
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: can be a really, really good move. And I think
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: it pays dividends here, you know?
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: And the fact that Elaine says it's forceful means it
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: is a little more than forceful because she's always on
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Egwene's side. She's like, no, you got to talk Stern
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: to Rand. Although maybe she's got a little more sympathy
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: for him these days.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: It's ellipses forceful.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: That is Elaine being diplomatic, being, um, how do I
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: not offend a way when I tell her that this
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: is her.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Screaming at Rand? How do I communicate that? Like you
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: fucking moron. You think breaking the seals is going to
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: make things right. You don't know what you're doing.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that level just because and like they're coming
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: so close because like she's admitting that breaking the seals
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: is necessary. Just that the timing is important.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And I think that this is an important part of
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: what's missing between Rand and Egwene that they're both trying
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: to get with Elaine and Perrin. providing the voice of
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: reason of like, well, they just don't understand what I'm
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: trying to do. And it's like, well, maybe you should
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: talk to them about the specifics, right? Like I had
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: been up until this point convinced that Egwene was like,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: we have to protect all the seals. And I'm like,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: you were stupid. That is a ridiculous proposition. And here
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: we're learning, no, no, no. She does want to have
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: them get broken just at the right time. And I'm like, okay, well,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: you need to be much clearer about that. If I
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: didn't understand that, then probably Rand didn't understand that, right?
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Same thing with Rand, right? He doesn't actually want to
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: break the seals himself. He wants to hand them to
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Gwaine and have her break them at the right time.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: They literally both want the same thing, but they haven't
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: told us, much less each other.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: And we'll ignore the fact that it's all irrelevant, because
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: they don't have the seals.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Well, and then there's that. Classic Sandersonism. All of that
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: was moot.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: He does that a lot, doesn't he? He's like, we're
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: going to have a big argument over A or B,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: and it turns out that B doesn't exist. Like... The
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: underlying premise is false, and so never mind. And that's
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: going to suck on rereads.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: But I do think that's one of the reasons why
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: it's hard to care about this, because it's like, yeah,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: they get them, and they agree the light is when
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: they need to break them, but they only get them
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: right before that. It's not like they could have broken
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: them earlier.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: It does strain credulity even in a world where time
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: is melting and Tavirin is strong. It's like, come on, man. Like,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: come on. You didn't get them back until the moment
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: that happened to be foretold. Like, we didn't need to
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: have this whole argument if it was all going to
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: happen naturally in its own time anyway. So, yeah, they
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: get to this note that was added to one copy
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: of the Kareathon cycle by some random person.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Not some random person. This is the last dreamer before Egwene.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: And she was the Emerald Seat for a little while.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: But she didn't like it.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: The only Amarylline who was a dreamer before Egwene. So
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: they're very unique together. But yeah, she put in a
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: little note that said, wait upon the light. And that's
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: what actually matters. That's the little bit of prophecy that
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: actually factors into it. Like literally the clouds form, the
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: ancient symbol of eyes to die. Loghain chooses to do
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: the right thing and everyone's happy.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, I'd like to talk about this prophecy
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: line by line, because I feel like I don't fully
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: understand it, breaking it down.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: And light shall fail and dawn shall not come. That
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: we know is the solar eclipse.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Right, right.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Congratulations, Europe, on getting to have one of those recently,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: by the way.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I'm jealous. Beautiful. I got to say, the
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: total solar eclipse really was one of the few spiritual
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: moments I think I've ever had in my life where
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: I really felt like, Oh my God, we are actually
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: on a big ball of spinning rock in the sky.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: And like, I can feel that for a moment.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: 100%.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Would love to go re-experience that. Cannot fly to them
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: very easily.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Apparently you can take cruises to them pretty easily because
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: so many of them happen out in the ocean.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: Oh, okay.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: There's eclipse cruises.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: That, ooh. Okay, you just gave me the only reason
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I've ever had to go on a cruise. I know, right?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: I know, I know.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Fuck. And you could like boat with it so that
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: like you could extend the timeline of it. So if
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: you're going a little bit. Yeah.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Someone doing a skateboard move perfectly framed by
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: the eclipse at totality doing the I don't even know
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: what that jumpy thing where they throw at the top
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: of the thing and they grab the board and they
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: look all awesome and in motion and the sun is
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: just a burning ring with black in the middle. Oh,
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: that's fantastic. That's fantastic. I remember seeing similar pictures of
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: like rock climbers and stuff during the Oregon eclipse that
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: had like climbed to really like high places to get
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: like a perfectly placed picture with the eclipse, like in
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: their hand or whatever. This looks like one of those.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: And you have to do some math, I feel like,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: to get it right. You know, you have to be like, yeah,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: for sure. Really, really calculate the right relationship between the
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: three objects so you can form a line, do a
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: high level zoom and then get the photo of the
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: persons in a way that Because, like, the sun's actually tiny,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: so you have to be pretty far away from the
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: person and then zoom in so that the sun and
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: the person are all relatively the same size. You have
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: to angle that right, and you can't, like, really do
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: it the day before because the sun moves every day.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: So you really do have to, like.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: You can practice the move. You can practice trying to
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: get the move and the cameras clicking right. And, yeah,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: of course, the burst setting on cameras really helps. But, like, yeah, ultimately, like,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: you're hoping. You're doing math and hoping. And, yeah. So
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: the last battles eclipse is going to be a lot
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: less awesome than... than the recent solar eclipse in Europe
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: or any just regular normal solar eclipse. But when, you know,
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: the devil's literally coming out of a volcano and whatnot,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: then it's a little bit more imposing.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: And still the captive rails. I assume the captive refers
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: to the dark one here.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Same, same.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Which is what they think. So what's confusing?
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: What part of that refers to breaking the seals, the light?
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: So where's, The note that she enters.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Then there's another line, his blood shall give us the light.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Wait upon the light.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: And then wait upon the light.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Okay. So that's, I think, what I was missing, because
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't highlight that.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what it is, is that once
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: his blood is on the rocks of Sheol Gul, right,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: then all of the spell's components are in place and activated,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: and that's when you can break the seals.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: But it's not his blood on the rocks that gives
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: us the light. The light comes much later, because he
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: gets the blood on the rocks when he's approaching the tomb. Right.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: And then it's only much later after he like is
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: fighting the dark one and they see a bunch of
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: visions and like time passes and then the light shines forth.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I don't remember entirely what causes the light. I'll be honest.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I don't either.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's the moment where he releases the
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: burden of the list.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: But see, for him, it only takes like an hour,
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: like that whole process of walking in there and doing
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: the fight and all that. That only takes him like
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: an hour of real time, whereas even on the slopes
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: of the battle outside, it takes hours.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: So out there where Loghain is dealing with the seals,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: it is significantly later because that's the time warp thing.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: So his blood on the rocks is not the signal.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's when he gets Moradin's blood on the rocks.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Maybe when they're both bleeding and like actively body swapping
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: blood brothering or something.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah. Unclear.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I don't remember specifically the sequence of events that triggers
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: the light. And I mean, she does ellipses off here.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: It's sort of unpleasant. Maybe there's other lines that are
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: around it that are relevant, but this is what Sanderson
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: chose to put on the page. So it should be
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: enough of a clue.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: Anyway.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Okay. It's just a weird, wait upon the light. I
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: get that. But his blood, I think his blood shall
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: give us the light. That line in particular is the
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: one that makes me go, what? Whose blood?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Is the dark one's blood maybe maybe it's the moment
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: when the dark one is truly wounded that the light
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: is able to come back or something i don't know
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: we'll have to try to parse that when we get
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: to it because i don't know uh so yeah as
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: they conclude that discussion we learned that canada's under attack
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: and are they in has to immediately leap into Queen
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: of Andor, Queen of Camelon, Queen of the Palace response
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: to everything. And all of this academic hand-wavy stuff is
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: by the by.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess what we're seeing is sort of
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: the aftermath of the prologue with Talmanus.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, because at the end, they are sort of,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: they blow a hole in the wall and they get out, right?
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: And so then this is, Gaibon is telling Alayne, So
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: we got out through the wall and then there happened
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: to be a bunch of mercenaries nearby holding the gate
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: that Talbanes had, you know, gotten through hours prior. So
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: that was a good investment on his part. And we've been,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: you know, running away ever since. I don't know how
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: they found gateways. I don't know how they found them
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: to get them gateways. But, you know, they got out
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: of the city and then pretty quickly after that were
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: able to find their way to gateways.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: And they're opening the gateways from the field of Marilor's side.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to somewhere nearby where they were all running on
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the road near Camelon.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: So my assumption is this, that Serena, she's the one
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: who went and investigated, right? So she opens up the gateway.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: She sees things on fire. Somehow she's able to identify
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: where the refugees are. And it's because, like, if you're in,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: I assume by now they know the field of Marilor
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: well enough to open a gateway to sort of anywhere else, right?
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: They've got a traveling ground set up.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They've got a traveling ground, right? Like, so she
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: basically probably opens the gateway up high, looks around, sees
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: a force fighting at a distance. Closes that gateway, opens
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: up a gateway behind them.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: That would make sense because she would open it to
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the palace initially. That is on fire. One assumes that
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: because Teviren or whatever, she opens it during the period
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: in which she can hear the boom of the wall
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: getting smashed open and then can start, you know, making
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: little window gateways and searching and finding them fairly quickly
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: from there.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Right, because she... she's going to see the massive hole.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: In the wall from where it'll be hard to miss.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, and then the, the people fighting outside that,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: you know? Yeah. And cause they're, they're kind of outside
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the city now, really. Right.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, they open up a bunch of
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: gateways to where all of the refugees and soldiers are
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: running and hiding and then they get to come through
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: and start to get rescued and they smell of smoke
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: and it's all miserable and, Elaine insists that Gaibon did
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: well despite having to literally blast the walls of the
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: city to get out. She's like, you got people and
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: the dragons out, so 110% gold stars for you. I
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: don't care what you had to break to get the
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: war materials and refugees out.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: And at this point, she understands how little city walls
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: mean in these kinds of fights.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, she's one of the first people to grasp
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: how much city walls don't mean. Like, Matt's one of
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: the only people ahead of her, right?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, she's very excited about the band and
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: wants to reward them. And then we learn about Tomatis
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: and they look at each other and go, we need Nynaeve.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basically.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Go summon Nynaeve right now. We cannot be losing Matt's
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: true husband. That will not do.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: And she does, you know, the really cool explosion of
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: weaves comes out of her, you know, the sudden light,
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: that thing that really sort of we see in the
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: TV show, I think, more than anything else.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Nynaeve does her full five power carpet weaving, the
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: kind of thing she was doing in the books in
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: like book five, right? When she was healing Elaine's fatal
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: head wound in that one scene. Like this is that
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: kind of healing where she's just like, oh shit, I
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: need to go to 11 on this. Because, you know,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Talmanes is a few seconds from death, right? He has
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: been clinging on way past his pull date at this point.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Right, right. I feel like this is way worse than
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: what She compares this healing to Tam's healing back in
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Eye of the World when Moraine did it, right? Times 10? Yeah.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: But he's way worse off, right? Tam had a bad wound.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Talmanus's whole body is blackened. Yeah.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Tam was dying. Talmanus was dead walking. There's a subtle
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: difference there.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: But think about the different tools they had, right? Because
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: all Moraine had was the Field's battle Aes Sedai healing
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: that all the White Tower had. Nynaeve has this new
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: form of healing where she can actually attack with all
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: five powers. And she's better at healing, just as a
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: natural talent.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Right, she's better at healing. She invented the five power
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: healing fundamentally, right? She's the best at it because she
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: invented it first.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: And... I don't think she's the best at it anymore. I.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: That is slander, and I will not stand for it.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: But she even said, right, some of these yellows are
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: outstripping me. Yeah, she does.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Because they have more experience with other things. Like, they
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: know anatomy better or whatever stuff. Yeah, no, that's true.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: And they've taken the things she taught them and run
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: with it, basically.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: But still, she has the, if you're so powerful, it
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter what your skill level is override.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes. There is that button she gets to hit,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: which is power, plus Angril. Yeah, yeah. Because she's got
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: her paralysis net on.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, right, yeah. She's even juiced above and beyond her
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: natural state.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Which is why she's able to keep healing, whereas Moraine
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: was fucking done. Like, we talk about this back in
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Eye of the World, the way, like, why did Moraine
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: let the boys go off? Because that. Because she was
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: healing Tam and absolutely exhausted herself.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. And yeah, as soon as Elaine knows
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: that Tamanis is going to get taken care of, she
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: immediately turns to Eludra, because, you know, the next most
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: important thing after the people is the dragons.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: Now she knows that the people are okay. Like now
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: we got to talk to Eludra about the dragons, what
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: was left, what was saved. Like Elaine is pragmatic, right?
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: She does not linger on the human element once she
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: knows that other people are on it. And likewise, Egwene
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: is like, okay, Queen of Andor time, I should probably
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: make myself scarce. I'm not going to help in any
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: way other than, you know, saying all the eyes to
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: die are available for healing and traveling as needed, obviously.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: But otherwise, you know, she makes herself scarce.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: And Romanda takes over. as sort of the one in charge.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Which makes sense, because she's a yellow who has a
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: lot of seniority and experience dealing with stuff. I imagine
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: her administrative skills for dealing with a healing thing, probably
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: she's one of the best yellows for it, just because
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: she's been in this job for so long. Yes, we
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: know the yellows are bad at everything, but if any
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: of them have ever done anything like this before, it's
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: not going to be the new Omerlin. It's going to
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: be the elder yellow. And then... Dun-dun-dun-dun! Lylewyn and Doman
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: meet Egwene.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: And she, I do not like the way she treats them.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Me either.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I know it's like sourced in the trauma around the
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Sean Chan, but like these people were Nynaeve's companions. They
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: were Elaine's companions.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: They fucked up the sad bracelet thing though.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does Egwene even know that though?
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Because she doesn't mention it here. She doesn't bring it up.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: She's like, who are you?
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: That's true. I do feel like I wouldn't mind this
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: so much if their relationship had turned into a source
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: of healing for Egwene to move forward with her life.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: Then this enemies to friends arc would work. And the
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: fact that she starts out so antagonistic and hostile and
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: cold would make the eventual friendship and respect hit harder.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: But because she just sort of has her at arm's
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: length and then throws her away again, it's just like, ew, instead.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: It's like if... Eggiannon saved Egwene in some moment at
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: the sacrifice for herself that made Egwene go, oh, maybe
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: this is not all Sean Chan are bad. Maybe I
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: can come to terms with them. You know, they're misguided,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: but like the people themselves aren't bad people. And that's
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: the healing that I can go through that then saved
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: her life.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: But like the best we get is that she cares
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: enough about Eggiannon to sever the bond and shove her
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: through a gateway before nuking herself. So that way a
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Gaeanon is able to like, or Lyle one is able
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: to go on with her life instead of, you know,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: warder raging out and die. Like that's the closest we
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: get to respect.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: That's, that's not.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Which feels like disrespect because like, does that mean all
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: the Aes Sedai who don't save their warders lives are
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: disrespecting them? Like, I don't know. It just, it's.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: It also means that she doesn't accept Lylewyn's offer of
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: being her warder. She doesn't accept the full sacrifice. Lylewyn
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: wants to die for her. Not she wants to die,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: but the idea that she would say, yes, I'll accept
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: you and then reject it is like, so you never
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: even took it. Like, it's a really frustrating lack of arc.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: that we see just it's it fizzles on arrival with
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: us knowing how it goes you know.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: And because there's so little of it right like it's
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: in the last book it's mentioned like twice and then
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: she's dead and it's like oh okay whoops.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah so for now she just says take them away
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: under guard and i'll deal with them later because i
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: have more important things to do which in her case
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: is to be a battery for nynaeve right nynaeve staggers
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: back over saying damn it was impressive what Moraine did
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: with Tam, and I just did that for Tamanis, and
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I'm very tired. And Egwene says, well, I have lots
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: of energy, so use me as a battery while you
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: heal everyone else, because I am Amrlin's second Aes Sedai first.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: And her role as a pretty talentless healer who has
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of potential is to back someone like Nynaeve up.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Right. And the two of them can do more healing
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: together than almost any other Aes Sedai pair. just because
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: they have so much power together.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Powerhouse.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Plus Nynaeve's Tower of Tyrande real. Yeah.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the only thing more powerful than that
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: would be a regular circle backing Nynaeve up. Like, a
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: full circle would help, but, like, Egwene on her own
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: is pretty much the same thing.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: And I assume Nynaeve is wearing her Perales net. I
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: don't think it's mentioned.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like that's kind of just assumed at
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: this point. It's almost like a sword or a water cloak.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Unless it's notably not on her because she just woke
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: up or something, you can just kind of assume that
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: if she's running around in full day gear, it includes
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: her magic power-ups.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: And then.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: Back to random parent yeah last pov section of the
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: chapter is back to random parent having absorbed a lot
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: of this information and talking about the nature of madness
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: right parent says you know you're not mad and ran
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: says well i mean yes and no right how do
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: you want to define madness what is crazy.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I was two people fighting over control of myself and
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: one of them was completely insane. And again, I feel
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: like this is, this is the part where Sanderson is
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: really laying out exactly how Rand's madness worked. He's trying
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: to explain it in as many different ways as possible
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: to be like, there was a voice in his head.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: The voice in his head was insane. The memories are true.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: He's integrated those memories to, you know, but he always,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: he is Rand. He always was Rand. Louis Theron is Rand.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: The voice in his head wasn't either of those two people.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Like he's just trying to say it over and over
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: and over again here in as many ways as possible
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: to Perrin. Yeah. And then he says the thing that like,
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: I think is self-evident, but apparently we have to say,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: which is without the madness, without these memories, we couldn't
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: have won without these memories. They're telling me things that
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: I needed to know, which duh, we're going to see
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: that in the last battle. I just, I don't think
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: you needed to say that, especially ahead of winning. Right.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: Where it's like, Sure, maybe after you've won, you could
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: have been like, oh, my God, those memories were the
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: only reason I won. But to say, if we win,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: it'll be because of these memories. I hate it. Oh,
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I hate it.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good paradox to point out, but not here.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Not like this. Because it is a paradox that the
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Dark One hands over the seeds of his own destruction
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: by making Rand mad and giving him the memories. Like,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: that is a good paradox to puzzle over. But maybe
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: not preemptively popping the champagne sort of discussion.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's also one of those things that like
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: the darkness turning on itself is a theme that is
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: we see over and over again, but you don't, but
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: no one ever needs to say it out loud. Right.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Or like say it in the aftermath as you're processing
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: and like writing the final book of the events.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: And like sorting out. The wrap up lesson.
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Like it's a rumination paradox, not a right before the
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: battle paradox. I don't know, but I agree. It doesn't
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: sit right for me either. And so then, yeah, we
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: talk about the whole Rand basically convinces Perrin of how
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: material science works with respect to the seals.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: You're better off melting something down.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: So you know how blacksmithing works? Yeah, let me dragon
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: spleen blacksmithing to you.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: And magic is like blacksmithing because these reasons.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: For reasons.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Analogy metaphor but i mean yeah it's like you're it's
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: better to remake something from scratch than to try and
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: repair it right we've all dealt with like eventually you
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: well that's an interesting isn't that a boomer philosophy.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: A little bit i don't know about boomer philosophy but
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: i do know that it really depends on the medium
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: you're talking about right like clothing for example listen to
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: used to so for more ranting about this clothing is
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: very repairable It's very editable. It's very malleable. You can
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: repair almost anything with fabric. It's a very forgiving medium
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: in the broad sense, right? Same with woodworking. You can
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: quilt stuff together with flexible fibers like fabric or with
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: stiff fibers like wood. The concept of scrapping stuff together
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: and repairing it is totally an option. I do think
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: that maybe the metalworking example is pretty valid, though. I
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: don't know that quilting and metal are quite as productive
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: of concepts together. But I don't know if that's a
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: generational thing.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe not. I just feel like the idea of
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: like disposable plastic things, just get a new one, throw
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: away the old one, didn't exist. There was a time
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: when that didn't exist, right? Where it's like.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Depression era people are very frugal, right?
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a scarcity mindset that existed before the disposable mindset.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: And like, we've all kind of bought into the disposable mindset.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, is it always easier to melt
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: it down or can, is it better to repair things?
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: And because my job is in maintenance. I get to
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: the point where it's like, sometimes, you know, if you just,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of things that we throw out could be
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: repaired if we just knew how to repair them, if
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: we just didn't forget that knowledge and put as much
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: emphasis on repairability as we do on the newest, latest thing.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: That's a really big part of the sewing world and
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: why my mom and I are always preaching the gospel
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: of vintage sewing machines rather than new sewing machines is
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of those same reasons. Yeah, disposable everything is
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: a problem. In this particular case, though, because sometimes you
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: do need single-use items, right? There is a time and
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: a place for a single-use item, right? Gloves in medical contexts,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: great time for a single-use item. So, you know, in
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: the case of the seals, I feel like these are
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: single use items, right? They're not meant to be endlessly
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: patched and repaired. They are meant to, they're like resistors
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: or something in an electrical system. When they burn out,
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: that was their job. That's why you have that there
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: is to.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: You mean fuses?
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I fuse in a fuse box. Like
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: that's why it's there is to break first. And I
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: feel like the seals are like that.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: The seals are there to take that hit. They're not
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: meant to be recycled and repaired. They're meant to take
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: a one time hit. In this case, it's a 3000
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: year long one time hit. But, you know.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. No, I mean, and in no way do
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: I think like, oh, you should fix the seals back up.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: But maybe like the prison, the Dark Ones prison needs
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: to be fixed and repaired.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Wasn't that what the seal is, though? Is a repair
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: on the prison?
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Well, that's that's it's more of a patch, right? Like
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: that's the you know, what's the difference?
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: How is a patch not a repair?
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: It's not like new, right? It needs to be restored
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: in a way that maybe isn't just a patch.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: OK, sure. Visible mending versus invisible mending. Is that is
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: that how I can stretch this analogy?
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think in metal you could solder something
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: on or you could weld something on.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure that I know the difference in the
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: way that is relevant.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: So, so, uh, soldering would be taking a, like a
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: metal with a fairly low melting point and like putting
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: another and attach using it to attach two pieces of metal. Right.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: And so those are two separate pieces of metal attached
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: with like a bead of kind of a different kind
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: of metal in between.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, whereas welding is.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Making those two pieces of metal, the same piece of
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: metal with heat.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah. No, I've done just enough soldering to follow that. Okay.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Which I guess is kind of what he's doing, ultimately,
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: at the end when he captures the Dark One here, right?
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, we talk about, like, he makes it anew, like, wholesale,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: or he's just welding it so that way you can't
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: tell where the patch was.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: Sort of, yeah, yeah.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Hard to say. Because it's not like he takes the
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: Dark One out and puts him in anew. He's not
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: like a hermit crab. Like, the Dark One's not a
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: hermit crab.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Right. No, he just remakes, you know, he's basically instead
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: of taking a different material and closing the hole, he's
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: remaking the prison out of the stuff of creation because
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: he's wielding everything. And so he's remaking it out of
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: the original material. So rather than having a different material
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: place there, which is just sardine or cider, right, which
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: in his case, it was sardine, right? That's what happened.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Lewis Theron patched it with just sardine. Right. And that's
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: not the original material. That's not the threat. And there's
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: even a whole thing where he seizes threads of light
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: and threads of creation. And like, it's not even the
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: one power really anymore at that point.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: It's fundamental elementary particles.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Even below the dark one in terms of being a
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: universal power.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: So, yeah.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Perrin says, why don't you explain that to Egwene? And
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Rand says, well, she's not a blacksmith, so she won't
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: get my analogy. Perrin says, that's dumb. Talk to your ex,
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: for fuck's sake.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: She's smart. Just because she doesn't get that particular analogy
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean she's not smart enough to get analogies.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: Like, she's smart enough to run circles around all of us. Like,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I think you should try.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: And so then there's this whole thing about, like, hey,
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: it looks like we've got two armies here that are
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: getting ready to fight. And Perrin's like, I don't want
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: them to fight. And Rand's like, don't worry, that's not
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: the plan. I plan on uniting them.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: And Perrin's like.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, buddy.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: The trust me bro is real strong with this. And
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: every time I've trusted you before, it's technically worked, but
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: you scare me sometimes.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Because it really looks like you're about to start World
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: War III here.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Big time.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: And then we've got two Two Rivers men.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I was going to ask.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're definitely... Reed Salone is named for Scott Reed.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: And Kurt Wagner is named for Kurt Wagner.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: He really got the one... Vowel change.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: The one vowel change. Congratulations to both of you. Well done,
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Kurt Wagner. Went from E to a U. Or U
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: to an E, depending on which direction you're going.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, Rand discovers the power of telling people we're
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: going to give it our best is fine. You don't
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: have to promise people you're going to win. You have
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: to promise that you're going to show up and do
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: your best. And that's enough to give men heart. And
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: that's a good, important lesson about leadership. Rah, rah.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: And then, OK, I thought this part was really interesting
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: because Perrin's like, I need to talk to the real
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Rand and Rand let himself be more relaxed. What's going on?
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: Is it just that he's letting himself like is it
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: he holds himself as the dragon reborn up to a
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: certain level? What's or is it just like what's going
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: on there? Is it the fact that he's got Louis
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Theron in his head? What's changing when he's letting himself relax?
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: Is it just not masking?
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Perrin says, I don't like talking to you when your
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: emotions are all masked. So it does feel like Rand
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: is disassociating into his avataric overview kind of self to
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: disconnect from all the pain and anxiety to give himself
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: a break. And yeah, that makes him a little bit,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: callous is the wrong word, but disconnected emotionally. from the
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: various struggles, right? And Perrin is a very earthy, man
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: of the people, salt of the earth kind of person.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: And he's like, look, I know that you're all zen
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: and floating on clouds and like not bothered by stuff
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: or whatever, but I need you to be bothered for
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: a minute. Like I need the version of you that
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: acts like a real human being and not like a
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: literal avatar floating around in a halo. That's how I've
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: interpreted it. And- Having been on my autism unmasking journey
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: over the years since I last read this book, all
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: the discussion of masking hits different now. It really does.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Rand just masking his way into compliance with the end
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: of the world and Perrin saying this is not the
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: human connection that I need hits different now that I've
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: been working on this unmasking concept for the last three years.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Code switching maybe might be more appropriate for Rand because
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: he's super not autistic. Yeah.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: But it's like more than just his verbal presentation. It's
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: like his entire internal alignment around the experience of being human.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Well, it's because he's gone through this shit. Right. And
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: he's got this other personality, but he's still a 22
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: year old kid.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: But he's also a 400 year old man.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Right. So I can see where parents like I need
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: to talk to the version of you who just kind
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: of forgets about that 400 year old man in the
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: back of your head.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: Right. I need the person I grew up with to
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: have a gut reaction to information that is relevant to
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: both of us.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about these Trolloc sightings in
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: the South. I don't know what those could be referring to.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: Well, we know we had that Portalstone attack that brought
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Perrin and the White Cloaks together.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: And we know that Fire in the Ways was about
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: shutting down Waygates because the Trollocs were, you know, gallivanting
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: around willy-nilly. I mean, I know fire in the ways
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: isn't canonical, but like that's kind of the reason why
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: they go into the ways.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. It's canonical that he went in and did that.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: That particular story isn't perfectly canonical because of the people
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: who are there.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: But like he did that reasoning is canonical that the
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: way gates are a problem. So my assumption was it
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: was way gates, just general. They're hucking trollocs out there
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: whenever they can get them past the black wind. And
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: so it's pretty random.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: And then I have Avienda popping in.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So he's thinking about how he needs Elaine to
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: stay because, you know, she's a really important political glue,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: despite this attack on Camelon and blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: And then Avienda shows up, pops through a gateway, and
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: that completely derails his train of thought from, you know,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: wife number one to wife number three.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: And where's wife number two? Where's Min in all this?
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Min is, I mean, she's probably just still hanging out
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: with Rand, which means at this late hour, she's probably asleep.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: She's still just attached to him. So she's on whatever
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: circadian rhythm the field of Marilor is at. So she's
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: probably deep asleep or, you know, actively studying more books
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: Reading.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, Rand thinks a little bit more about using people. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: Or has been with the Sean Chan yet?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: No, that hasn't happened yet.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: OK.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: I think that happens like that's a whole scene. That's
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: that's totally not happening yet. Fuji, she can't be riding
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: the dragon because the dragon's right here. So yeah, Perrin
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: is making a really strong argument here for Elaine. He's saying, Rand,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: we need to send someone to Camelon. We need to
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: help the Andorans. He's being a really good client king
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: of Andor, right?
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: He's essentially saying, I'm in the Andoran Federation, so my
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: interests are going to be particularly sharp when it comes
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: to threats on my queen's capital city. Perrin doesn't want
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: to be equal to or above Camelon.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: Elaine.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: He doesn't really have an issue with the two rivers
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: being smaller and technically militarily connected to Andor. They just
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: have to not do the whole tax thing.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: That's all.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: So he's making a strong argument to Rand and Rand
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: is like, nah, it's fine slash Fubar.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: There's somewhere between fine and Fubar is where Camelot is at.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: I think it's pretty Fubard.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: I think so too. I think so too.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, at this point, like just the state in
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: which Talmanus has come back, tells Rand that the place
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: is abandoned, right? It's the Trollocs have it and getting
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: it back. I mean, he even says like getting it
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: back is not worth it. Yeah.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: And like, it's great that Perrin is, you know, pushing
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: for that, but Rand has to be very pragmatic and say, no,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: I just have to look for the advantage of this.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: There is no redeeming it. I'm not going to do
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: sunk cost fallacy. I'm just going to figure out where's
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: the advantage. It's going to make me feel kind of
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: icky to be like, how can I use this? But
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: also time is moving too fast right now.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: And in the first part of the battle, they do
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: try and take back Camelon.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: That's one of the first places that tries to get
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: pushed back.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: It's one of the four battlefronts. Yeah.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: So I guess technically Avienda doesn't completely derail his train
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: of thought, but she certainly jerks it for a second.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: Jerks it. She's going to jerk it for more than
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: one second. Jesus Christ. Oh, so this is where Perrin
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: is starting to talk about Waygate stuff too, right? They're like,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: how did this happen? And we learned that the only
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: Shadowspawn that can go through gateways were Golem. So that's
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: an interesting little, I'm guessing, retcon.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I also think Golem were made in a different way, right?
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Because they're based on the Green Men. They're constructs like
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: the Green Men.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right. So the rules are slightly different.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: The rules are slightly different. They're made in a slightly
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: different way than the other ones, which are like corrupting...
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: people's reproduction and blending them with animals using the true power. Right, right.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: I assume the golem were made the same way the
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: green men were, just using the true power.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: That makes sense, yeah. And then Perrin says, if it
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: was the way gate, we can do something. So that's
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: the inciting jumping off point for why Fire in the
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: Ways happens, even though, yeah, Fire in the Ways is
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: literally non-canonical because of who could and couldn't be there.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: Perrin going and doing that, inside it here parents like
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: oh if the way gates are where we're gonna have
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: attacks from the south popping up then i have a
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: fix for that i know a guy i know several
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: guys in fact.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: It's how they're gonna seal the trollocs in the borderlands
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: so they then they can fight them at the gap
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: they can fight them at the passes and like you
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: can contain the damage the last battle's doing right.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: And then rand thinks about how it's quote unquote his
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: fault that demon dread is a dingbat It's completely Luz
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: Theron's fault, and even more so, it's Demon Dredd's fault.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: Let's be accountable for things. But he does, you know,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: think essentially about how Demon Dredd's betrayal to the dark
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: side is the most tragic and sad. And that, I guess,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: is giving us a little bit of a wedge for
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: that whole thing where when we get into Demon Dredd's
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: head later, he's like, oh, this whole dark one thing
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: is kind of getting stale. It turns out I like
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: this chick who's not a dark friend.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: And you get some lore about Demon Dredd about he discovered... War, right?
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: It kind of makes him the OG general, right? Like,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: all these generals who've been around, well, Demondra discovered war
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: when war was forgotten. He's the greatest captain. Yeah, he's
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: the greatest captain. He's forgotten more than you'll ever know
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: about war, because he's the OG. It's like if you
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: were a physicist going up against, like, Isaac Newton or
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: Albert Einstein, you'd just be like, well, fuck me, I guess,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: I guess. You know, like, you invented the genre.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah. Exactly, exactly.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: And yeah, then Rand says, hey, Perrin, I need to
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: go bang wife number three. So you should probably go
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: visit your wife. That's not what he says, but that's
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: what I choose to imply. He's like, hey, Perrin, go
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: to your wife. And I'm like, that's because you want
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: to go to your wife.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, this is the last night of peace.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: The last battle is about to begin. Have one last
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: night before we're actually fighting the final battle in which
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: we will probably die. Right.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: This is the final battle. And either we're going to die,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: our wives are going to die, or everyone's going to die.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: Or everything we know and love is going to burn down,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: but technically we'll be alive and we'll wish we were dead. Like,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: either way, this is the last night, the last sleep. And, like,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: we know that's not true for Perrin, right? Perrin has
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of dreaming, a lot of sleeping to do.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: Rand is literally going to have all this shit go
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: down in the next day, right? The next couple of days. Like, nothing,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: there will be no rest for Rand because of how
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: close he stays to the warping of time. Perrin is
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: going to head out and have some dreams. But, yeah.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: Good night, sweet princess. Well, technically, we're going to see
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: them both again before the end of the night. But,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: Perrin nodded and then rested a hand on Perrin's shoulder.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: Delight Illumine you, my friend.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: I could not not read that as Illumine either. Every
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: time I read that line, like, it's Illumine. I'm sorry.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: In this particular instance, it's Illumine. It just is.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: Delight Illumine you. And you, my friend. And that's the
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: end of chapter one. We're just doing one chapter today.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: I'm easing us back into it a little bit. First
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: couple of chapters, I'm doing... As singletons.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not going to rush this, although we are
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: going to try to time it correctly, but we're not
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: going to rush it. We're going to try to make
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: these episodes fun and easy. Oh, I like Vucci's comment
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: in chat. A Two Rivers Lord becoming a king in
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: Saldegna seems like a risk for the Fourth Age. Like
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: how the Duke of Normandy, who's supposedly subservient to King
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: of France, became the King of England, and then they
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: threw hands for a century about it. I think that's
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: definitely going to be one of the opening issues in
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: the fourth age is when all of their kids and
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: grandkids get pissy about who's subservient to who.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, because they all have lots of children. Rand and... Yeah, exactly.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: I think all the Two Rivers boys that manage to
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: continue to be alive will end up having a lot
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: of kids. I suspect that Matt might die fairly early
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: in some kind of, you know, coup and might not
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: have so many children, but Rand and Perrin are both
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: going to put in the time. Oh, is Min with
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: the Wise Ones? Maybe she is with the Wise Ones.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's what she's doing at this point. Oh, yeah,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: Matt does have Oliver, and Oliver is going to sow
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: his wild oats across the entire continent. Oliver's going to
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: have a kid in every city.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: You're like, damn, Oliver, you're a hoe. But no, you're right,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: he is.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying. I'm just saying. So in that regard,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: Matt's going to have many grandchildren.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: Right, right. Spiritual, at least.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: It's not genetic. But yeah, no, that's going to be fun.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: Well, that was a fun episode. I'm glad we just
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: did one chapter. There was a lot to just marinate
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: in and process and all that.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: I feel like we had some good tangents on that one.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: We did. We did have a lot of tangents. But,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: you know, that's what we do. That's what we specialize in.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: I can hear the editor in your voice whenever we're like,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: we had a lot of tangents. I'm going to have
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: to edit those down to something that makes sense. Figure
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: out which ones to put at the end, which ones
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: to put in the middle, how to cut them out.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: It's a lot more work with tangents.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: But also, like, that's what the people come for, so.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and, I mean, Tuon's going to make some, you know,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: Sean Chan babies. How crazy that Matt's babies are going
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: to be Sean Chan.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, of all the people to make royal babies, Matt, like,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: the one who's the most anti-royal, is like, you didn't
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: just become nobility, you made more.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: LAUGHTER All right. Well, let's, I think with that, turn
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: off recording. Thank you to all the Patreons, past and present,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: and future.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: And future. You still have, you know, several more months
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: in which to give us material support for this podcast.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: We really appreciate all of your attention and engagement and
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: lurking and Patreonizing and click and like on the social
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: media posts we make. All of your support of this show.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: Really helps us do the thing. And with that, we're
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: going to go do the other thing.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: See you there.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: Dungeon Crawler Carl.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: DCC. Bye.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers Podcast.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: Please rate and review us on your podcast app, and
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: consider supporting us on Patreon for ad-free episodes. What Spoilers
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For more
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: podcasts from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website at foxandravenmedia.com.