Latest / The Bad Roman: Christian Politics for Modern Times / Christianity Unpacked in ”Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen” with Domenic Scarcella

Transcript

Christianity Unpacked in ”Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen” with Domenic Scarcella · The Bad Roman: Christian Politics for Modern Times

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey folks, what is the difference in a good
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: neighbor and a good citizen?
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: How do we behave as a good neighbor and
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: still maintain our bad citizen, aka bad
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Roman reputation?
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Well, it turns out we have the best example
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: ever in Jesus Christ.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Dominic Scarcella joins me to answer all
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: these questions and talk about a fantastic
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: book he wrote titled Good Neighbor, bad
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Citizen Reflections on the Core Social
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Conflict Revealed by Jesus Christ's Way of
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the Cross.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Dominic, how are you doing?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I hope I got your last name right, because
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I meant to ask you that before we started
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: recording and there's a pretty 100% chance
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: that I got it wrong somehow.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: You nailed it.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I like it Very good.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: I love you.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: A great start man.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Great, All right.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: So I got connected with you, I think after
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: the Larkin Rose episode the first Larkin
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Rose episode and then you joined our
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: discussion group.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: And then you started joining our discussion
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: group Zoom Calls Monthly and I remember
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: telling you, listening to you talk I don't
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: know what you, I don't even remember what
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: you were talking about.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: One day I was like I want to get you on the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: show because I think I can sit and listen
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: to you talk all day long.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: And you wrote a book and so now I get you
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: on the show, we can talk about this book.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: That, I think, is just very fantastic and I
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: think everybody should pick up.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: And it's a very affordable book, extremely
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: affordable book.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: It's a short read.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: You can almost carry it around in your
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: pocket and have it as a reference to talk
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: about anything you want to know when it
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: comes to being a good neighbor and a bad
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: citizen.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you yeah.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Those were a lot of the goals, for you got
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: it, something that was easy to carry around,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: something that could be a meditative aid.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: So you can.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: If you were just going to read through it,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: it's less than 10,000 words, so I mean
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: that's a 45 minute read for the average
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: adult.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: But if you wanted to read it more slowly
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: and use it as a meditative aid, it could
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: work as that well, and it's the kind of
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: book you can revisit if you needed to.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: It's a meditative aid because the subject
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: matter is it's not just good neighbor, bad
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: citizen, it's you know and you were kind
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: enough to read the subtitle of the book you
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: know the reflections on the core social
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: conflict revealed by Jesus Christ way of
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: the cross.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: So one of the problems when you're writing
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: a book is you're like well, I just don't
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: want to lecture to people, I want to give
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: them an example of action.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I want to give them an example of behavior.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: The modern buzzword for that is narrative.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: We got to get it into a narrative, and what
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: better narrative to use than Jesus's life
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: and especially this incident of his passion
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: and death, his persecution?
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Because it's already laid out for you in
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: the Bibles.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: You just have to dig into it and really
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: wrestle with it and really grapple with
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: what's going on there, and then tie it into
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: the rest of Jesus's public ministry and the
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: rest of his teachings, and so the narrative
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: is already there for you.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: All I had to do was really lay out some of
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: the lessons and give people some meditative
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: aids.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: You know, why don't you think about this?
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Why don't you focus on this?
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Have you considered this yet?
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Maybe you've heard this before, but have
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: you heard it in this way, you know?
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: So the idea was to go with something that
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: people are already somewhat familiar with,
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: at least if you're a Christian, and I
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: imagine your audience on the bad Roman are
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: people at least curious about Christ.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: So if you're already curious about Christ,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: this is telling you something that you know.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: You at least have an introduction to it
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: already.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: And then you know, here comes this rather
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: short book that helps take you through
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Jesus's passion and death and even a little
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: bit of the resurrection at the end.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: So I'm glad you enjoyed it.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you for that good review at the
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: introduction there.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean and one thing I love about it
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: so much too and you mentioned the audience
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: for the bad Roman we do have listeners that
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: aren't necessarily Christian, but they do
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: agree with our stance as the no-King but
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Christ, or at least not getting ourselves
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: entangled with the government.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: You know, something I talked to Larkin Rose
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: about on the first episode, you know, and
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: so they appreciate that about us you know
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Larkin appreciates that about Christian
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: anarchists is how we we stick to the
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: no-King but Christ, we don't get entangled
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: with the state and what.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: What you've done with this book?
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: To me, it really simplifies the things that
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: we're reading in the Bible.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, like in the Bible, you have to
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: wrestle with it.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: You got to grapple with it.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: You got to put it all into context with
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: everything else going on in the Bible,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: because if you can read one scripture, you
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: can make that one scripture say anything
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: you want to, but if it's conflicted with
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: something else, well, what you've done with
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: this book?
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Because you've brought it all together in
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: less than 10,000 words and it's beautiful,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: and I think that I mean everybody that I've
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: talked to that read your book has been
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: pretty excited about it, and I'm excited to
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: get you on the show to talk about it today.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you, thank you.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Before we get into that, though because I
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: have a bad habit sometimes of jumping too
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: far ahead why don't you give folks a little
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: background yourself, since it's your first
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: time on the show?
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: If you want, whatever, you want folks to
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: know about you, and we'll get into it.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess maybe sometimes you have
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: people on the show who have long histories
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: to tell you about and you know, with the
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: projects they're working on and I don't,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: you know, I've been a teacher of religious
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: education at my parishes off and on, but
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: you know, just in really a volunteer
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: capacity I've taught children, teens,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: adults.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: We're recording this, if I can spill the
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: beans, we're recording this on a Sunday.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: So I had an adult education class this
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: morning that I was teaching between the two
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: masses at church.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: But other than that this, I've never
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: written a book before.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: I used to be a newspaper writer, I was a
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: sports writer for a while, so I do have a
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: writing background.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I've done some business to business
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: publication work and I've worked a little
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: bit in broadcast operations.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I've been in indie music, so I've done a
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: few things involved in various media over
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: the years.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: I've done some web development and software
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: development, but I have no credentials,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: though you know people like what makes you
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: think you can write a book is like well, I
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: have no social status and I have no
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: credentials.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: And in a way I think that works, because
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: the whole the book is really about the fact
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: that truth does not come from social status.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Truth does not come from having earned
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: something within this social order.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: You know, christ is an underminer of the
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: social order and the people of status, the
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: people who were well regarded in the larger
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: social order, these people turn out to be
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: terribly confused and they do terrible,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: terrible things to Christ himself.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: So you know, I'm a nobody, I don't matter,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: and I think that's partially why the book
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: works, because I'm not telling you go read
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: this book because I have a PhD in this or
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: that.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Go read this book because I'm a
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: best-selling author of this and this and
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: this and this.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Go read this book because I'm a celebrity
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: and I've been on this media show and I've
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: been on this TV show or I've been on one of
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: the streaming services.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Go read the book because I ran for
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: political office and I served in this.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I was a ruler of this portion of government.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: I don't have any of that to tell anybody
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: and I'm glad I don't, because I think it
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: would ruin the book if I were telling
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: everybody.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: You know, hey, go read this book because
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I'm a big shot.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that's a great point.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I think that's 100 percent correct and I
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: think you're somebody, by the way.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Well thank you, but I think that's how the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: why the bad Roman works is because I'm a
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: nobody.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm from West Texas.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: There's no trees.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: We chased horny toads and ran from
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: rattlesnakes.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: That's what we did.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: But I have ideas and I've got some thoughts
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: in my head that I had needed to get out,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: and I've been told more than once.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: The reason people like to listen to is
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: because I'm just a guy with some things to
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: talk about.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not some big shot celebrity.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: I have been accused of being some micro
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: celebrity.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Now I don't even know what the hell that
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: means.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Whatever a micro celebrity is, apparently
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: that's what I am.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: But I don't even buy into that either,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: because I run into people all the time
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: who's never heard of it.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: But then I get messages from people that
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: have heard of it, from their friends.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: So people are going to hear about this book
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: from their friends too, and I think that's
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: kind of how this stuff grows and I think it
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: does work well with the book.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's very simple, it's not
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: scholarly, it's very easy to read and
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: sometimes I need to be, I need stuff like
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: that.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: I'd rather read a book like this than read
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: a book like what you were describing Some
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: guy that ran for office or was in public
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: office or some pastor.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Someone will have some great books, don't
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: get me wrong, but I would.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I resonate more with stuff like this.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: So I'm proud of the book and you should be
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: proud of it as well.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you, I am.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I'm pleased with how the book turned out
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: and you know I had if you'll let me digress
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: it but I really had no plans of writing a
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: book.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I was trying to get a job as sort of a jack
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: of all trades and publications manager at a
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: think tank and institute and publishing
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: house that I really respect and one of the
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: questions their creative director asked me
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: as I was just informally chatting with him
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: on LinkedIn, was do you have any experience
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: with some of the publishing platforms?
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: We've got a lot of books in the works and
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: we want to publish.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: And I said, no, I don't, but I'll learn.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, I mean, you got to know
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Amazon and how Amazon does self publishing
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: and how their Kindle publishing works.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: And so I said, well, I'll learn.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: And I went and I looked into how Amazon
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: publishes and then at some point I said to
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: myself I'm going to need to publish
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: something, I'm going to need a book to work
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: on.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: So I said, what can I write rather quickly
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: that I already know about?
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: And it's you know, this book came about
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: because I, you know, I've been praying the
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: stations of the cross, and particularly
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: devotions on mercy, for years and I've been
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: making the distinction when I teach between
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: you know Jesus is a good neighbor, but he's
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: not necessarily a good citizen, and you
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: know people are really surprised to hear
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: that because you know you grow up in the
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: modern Western world and that's foreign to
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: you.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: So I knew this and so I was able to hammer
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: out a short devotion and that gave me
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: something to learn really how the
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: publishing houses work.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And at the end of it I wound up not getting
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: the job.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: They already had someone in mind and it
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: filled it.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: But you know, as I said to the guy, well,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: thank you very much.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: This has been really cool just chatting
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I still have the knowledge and I have a
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: book, and now other people can read the
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: book too, because you know I successfully
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: got it onto these publishing houses, so now
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: other people can read it, and I've been
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I've been rather pleased that other people
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: have wanted to read it.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: What a great outcome and something that I
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: didn't totally expect.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm very, I'm very happy with just how
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: my own faith led me here to something that
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I didn't expect, and how now maybe other
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: people can benefit from that as well.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: And you just mentioned stations.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: I want to kind of start there.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Sure, in the book and each chapter you got,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I think there's three stations per chapter.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so there's three stations per
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: chapter now and there's a bonus station at
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: the end.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I threw one in there.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if we'll get that.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: We might get that.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: We'll see how time goes, but maybe explain
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: what the stations are, not each station.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: We'll get into some of them as we go along,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: but you know what I'm saying.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Like, what do you mean by stations?
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: So if you've ever read some of the
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: canonical gospels in your standard Bible,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: you realize that they talk a little bit
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: about Jesus' carrying of the cross being
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: first condemned by Pilate and then carrying
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: his cross and then being crucified and
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: dying that rather horrible death.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Adds a criminal as an undesirable, as just
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: someone thrown away by society.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: But of course there's so much of the detail
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: is not always in the Bible there Because,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: remember the Bible, these canonical gospels
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: were written to people who they were living
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: under Roman occupation.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So, for instance, the Bible tells you
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: almost nothing about what a crucifixion is.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: And you wonder, why would they not tell you
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: what a crucifixion is?
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Well, because everybody who would have been
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the initial audience for the gospels, they
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: knew very well what a Roman crucifixion was.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: They did not have to, they did not need it
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: to be spelled out for them.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: They knew that.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: And now, as modern readers, we miss some of
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: what that is.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Now the stations of the cross, particularly
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: many different denominations of modern
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Christianity will do stations of the cross
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: devotions.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: The stations of the cross is very ancient.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: The earliest Christians, especially those
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: from maybe areas outlying Jerusalem,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: remember, christianity is very much a
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: pilgrimage religion and so there were early
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Christians who would go to Jerusalem, and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: because so much of Christ's ministry is
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: real history.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: You know there are real places where these
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: things took place and early Christians
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: would go into Jerusalem and very quietly
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: they would walk the way of the cross.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: They would follow these real places in the
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: city where Jesus would have been ushered
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: through very brutally on his way to be
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: crucified.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: The same thing happens with early
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Christians making pilgrimages to Jerusalem
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: around the time of year when Jesus would
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: have risen from the dead.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Early Christianity is very much an earth.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: It's a humble religion.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Right, humble means feet on the ground.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: It comes from an old Roman root talking
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: about the ground.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: So to be humblest, to be rooted, to be
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: humblest to have your feet on the ground,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: it's not self-loathing or putting yourself
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: down or things like that or insulting
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: yourself.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: It's simply about having a perspective that
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: you're well grounded.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: And so the early church is a humble
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: religion.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: They're well grounded.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So these real historical settings are very
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: much a part of their worship.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: It's very much a part of their memory of
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: things that they make present.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: And we're far removed from that.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: We're an ocean and a half away from it in
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: the United States and almost 2,000 years
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: later.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: But the stations of the cross are still a
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: well-loved devotion for many Christians,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: and so I use a lot of those traditional
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: understandings of what Jesus went through
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: and what it was like to be paraded publicly
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: through town to be shamed, like they're not
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: just going to kill you, they're going to
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: shame you on the way to killing you,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: torture you on the way to shaming you on
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: the way to killing you, and use the whole
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: spectacle as a way to scare other people
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: into compliance.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: You're nothing but a thing to them.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Jesus was nothing but a thing to these
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: people.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: But, of course, to the early Christians,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: especially to those who witnessed this and
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: then said maybe there was something to that
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: guy that I should give a second thought to.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: To these early Christians, that way of the
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: cross becomes something so deep and so
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: worthy of their time and attention and
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: their prayer and eventually becomes
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: something so beautiful.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: So the stations of the cross are the
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: details that everybody in the first century
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: would have known.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: That therefore didn't make their way into
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: the written canonical Gospels, but they've
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: survived through tradition, they've
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: survived in many modern denominations of
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Christianity and they really do call us to
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: remember that Christianity is more than
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: idea, it's personhood and it's real history
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: that takes place in a real setting, in a
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: real location, somewhere on this earth.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, now I get it All right.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: So I like the way you started the
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: introduction.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: You know all these books have introductions
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: and they have their own way of doing things,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: but I like how you did this because it
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: really lays the foundation for everything
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: we're fixing to talk about everything you
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: wrote down in this book, and the
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: introduction is just title priorities.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Now we're talking about good neighbors and
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: good citizens.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Right, you said, good neighbors treat each
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: other as peers.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Good citizens treat each other according to,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: according to official status.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Good neighbors seek the personal, intimate
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: betterment of themselves and each other.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Good citizens seek the external validation
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: of an impersonal system.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Good neighbors align to voluntary, open,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: open ended interactions.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Good citizens align to coercive civil
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: authority and impose hierarchical social
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: order.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Good neighbors in source their ethics.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Charity and friendship are the key virtues
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: of their relationships.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Good citizens outsource their ethics.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Compliance with the commands of rulers and
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: enforcers is a fundamental and necessary
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: aspect.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Some might call it a civic virtue.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Good neighbors consent.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Good citizens conform.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Jesus steadfastly chooses to be a good
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: neighbor, especially when faced with the
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: direct brutality of the coercive civil
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: authorities, both Roman and Israelite, and
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: knowing all it would cost him, even prior
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: to his arrest, trial and execution.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: The events of Jesus's recorded ministry
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: show this confrontation between loyalties,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: neighbor and citizen and stark terms.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: I love how you to me, that's the foundation
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: of this entire book, and I love how we.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know how many people skip over an
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: introduction of a book, but I think when
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: people pick up this book, it's very
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: important to read the introduction of this
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: book before you read the content of this
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: book, because it really lays the foundation
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: of what you were trying to get across to
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: the reader, and I think you did it
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: perfectly.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: When you, when you read that, was it
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: something and here I am turning it to the
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: interviewer was it something that resonated
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: with you or did you find it confusing?
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Because there are some.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: There are some dichotomies I draw there
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: that might be new to people.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: They may not have thought about it in those
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: kind of stark terms of what it means to be
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: neighbor and what it means to be citizen.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: It wasn't new to me, I mean because you
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: know we've been.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: We've been doing this project for well, at
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: the time of this recording, almost four
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: years.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: You know we're a few months short of four
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: years, so I've learned a lot of things
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: along the way, you know, coming from my
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: neoconservative roots to a pacifist now.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: So I've learned a lot of things along the
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: way, you know.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: So there's a big divide there.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't new to me and it might be new
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: to some people trying to work through some
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: of this stuff, but I don't think it was.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I don't think it would be hard to
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: understand for a new reader or somebody new
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: to this topic.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I think it was easily understood.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, good neighbors, basically, is
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: voluntary association Good citizen, is
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: coercive brutality through the state.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: That's how I read all of that.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: And that's the reality in Jesus's time, and
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: I try to keep things focused on what
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: happened to Jesus and the biblical accounts
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: and the records of the early church as
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: recorded there in the canonical gospels,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: but at the same time, I do hint that people
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: should consider the lessons of this for our
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: own time.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Like, your government does this to people
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: maybe not to you personally, but your
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: government does this to people.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Your, your society is built on the same
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: stuff that Jesus undermined, the same stuff
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: that Jesus railed against, the same stuff
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: that Jesus countered by showing people a
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: better way.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: And no, they were not compatible.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Right, there's, there's one of Jesus's
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: apostles who tried to make this state and
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Jesus compatible.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: There was one good citizen among Jesus's
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: close followers, judas.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: That's the good citizen of all the apostles,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: judas is the good citizen.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: And that did not work out well.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: This trying to force Jesus, force Christ,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: force Christ message into this power
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: structure.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: That that belittled people, that ranked
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: people and gave people different privileges
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: based on their status.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: That justified the violence of some people
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: in order to keep order these things.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: That that it's so easy to read the gospels
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: and to say, yeah, jesus is the good guy,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: and the Romans and the Pharisees and the
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Sanhedrin are the bad guys.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: But can you, can you now be honest with
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: yourself and your own society and look
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: around and say, oh my goodness, I'm on the
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: side of the bad guys and and quite often
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I'm one of the bad guys?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: And and that's that's hopefully where I
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: think, where people will get to with this
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: short book, because, again, it's a
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: meditative aid.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: You're not praying the stations of the
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: cross just for the heck of going through
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: the motions.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: You're praying the stations of the cross
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: because, like all prayer, you are seeking
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: God's will.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: So what is this information?
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: What is trying to recall what Jesus went
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: through?
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: What is the lessons and and the model of
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Christ?
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: What is that supposed to point me to seek
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: in my life?
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: It's not just a history lesson.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Christianity is historical, but it's not
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: supposed to stay in history.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: It's supposed to be relevant to the
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: contemporary Christian.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: And those are where the tough questions
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: come in.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: It's easy to see that Jesus is the hero and
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: the Romans and the Israelites are the
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: villains.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: It's much more difficult to realize that
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: the things that you like about your life
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: and your world and your society are those
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: same villains, and the people you would
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: look down upon are people who are like
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Christ.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: See and this is something that I was
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: thinking about I was reading the book too,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: and I've said often that if Jesus was
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: walking around in the United States of
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: America right now, I'm convinced that there
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: would be church leaders and Christians,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: self-professing Christians who would get
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: sick of his message and would want the
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: governing authorities to do something about
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: him.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: And if they couldn't get him to shut up,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: then they would probably have him crucified.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: They'd call the cops on him, wouldn't they?
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: They'd call the cops on him.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I'm convinced of that and I think and
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: that's because you didn't come out and say
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: it completely in this book but as I was
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: reading it, that's what I was thinking
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: about a lot.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I was like this happens all the time, just
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: like you were talking about, this happens
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: all the time in just America.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't can't speak for other
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: countries, but you can see it.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: I mean just to talk about the
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Israel-Palestine thing.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: We're seeing it right now among Christians,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: with Israel and Palestine.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: It's the same and I don't want to get too
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: far off of that.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I want to stick to the book.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: We've got other episodes on that.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: All right, let's jump forward to station
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: one.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, pilot condemns Jesus and remember I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: told you that I was.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: As I was reading this, I learned something
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: very, very early on in this book and there
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: was this first station that I was kind of
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: there's, there's part of this that it's
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: John 19, 10, 11, use that, that verse.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I learned something.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: This is this is the part I was telling you
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I learned something about.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: We were talking about it in the Zoom
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: meeting, but I didn't want to give too much
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: away to the other people in the Zoom group.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: I wanted to listen to the show, read the
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: book, whatever.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: All right, john 10 or 19, 10th or 11.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: So Pilate said to him do you not speak to
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: me?
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Do you not know that I have power to
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: release you and I have power to crucify you?
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Jesus answered him you would have no power
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: over me if it had not given to you from
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: above.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: For this reason, the one who handed me over
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: to you has the greater sin.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: And this is where I learned something.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, because when you read that scripture,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: when he says you would have no power over
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: me if it had not been given to you from
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: above right, that's read by the vast
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: majority of Christians, as that authority
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: was given to Pilate from God.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Right, and I don't believe that, but I had
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: a hard time explaining it to it.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: You explain that to people who would bring
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that to my attention.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, but it doesn't align with
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: other things Jesus was saying.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: So there's something else going on here,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: and Dominic says it.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Some read this as Jesus claiming Pilate has
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: been divinely justified as the civil ruler
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: given to you from above.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: He put that parentheses, but such an
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: interpretation seems at odds with the rest
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: of what Jesus says and the rest of the
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: gospel.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Jesus isn't justifying Pilate, jesus is
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: humbling Pilate.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, because you went on to
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: say first, pilate's position of Roman
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: governor, his place in the violence based
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: society, social hierarchy, is literally
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: given to him by his Roman superiors from
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: above.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: And I read that I was like, oh, now I can
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: explain this to people when they want to
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: hit me with this scripture, because I was
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: like I don't know how to explain this to
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: them.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Now I get it.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you, dominic, for pointing that out
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: to Craig.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I needed that one.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you are welcome and thank you for
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: that.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: I'm glad that you found something that
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: sparked your imagination right away.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Very good, yeah, there's a lot in this book
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: where I take aim at contemporary lazy
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: thinking, low ethics, low attention,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: christian tropes and modern Western
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Christianity is full of them.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Right, there's a lot that needs to be
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: reexamined.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Back to the Gospels, back to the early
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: church, really back to the presence of God,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: because the most important thing about
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Christianity is it's not simply ritual.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Ritual will get you as far as routine, but
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Christ doesn't call us merely to routine.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And it's not symbolism and language and
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: ideas.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Symbolism and language and ideas will get
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: you as far as theology and philosophy, but
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Christ doesn't call us to philosophy and
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: theology.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Christ calls us to faith, and you don't get
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: to faith without presence, and I think too
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: much of what passes for popular
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Christianity and cultural Christianity is
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: terribly shallow and it misses so much.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: That's right there in the Gospels and
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: that's why this book is so heavily based on
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: the Gospels.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I quote the Gospels over and over again in
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: this book and then I point to other areas
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: of the Gospels where Jesus already talked
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: about this and now he's saying it again.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Or he warned about this and now it's
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: happening, because I think there's a sense
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: that and you brought it up how easy it is
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: to take that passage about pilot and to
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: turn it into well, government is ordained
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: by God.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, every time it is.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: And it's become so frustrating on my end,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: especially with this, trying to explain no
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: king but Christ Right to another Christian,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: a Christian To a Christian.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: It gets me so frustrated, like you see me
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: now I'm laughing about it because I just
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: finally I had to.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I woke up to a text message today and she's
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: like can you help me with this?
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: This guy sent me this, this link, about the
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: constitution being divinely inspired by God.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I'm like what a bunch of status garbage
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: that is.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I said I'm fixing to stop sugarcoating this
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: stuff with these people and just being
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: straight to the point about no, that was
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: divine, that was inspired by Satan himself.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: If we want to get back to the temptation of
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Christ, let's talk about that, but that's a
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: whole nother topic and hope for another
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: episode.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Maybe we can do later.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: All right, let's skip to station three.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Jesus falls.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: The first time you brought up Matthew four,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: five through seven.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Let me just read the scriptures.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Then the devil took him to the holy city
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: and made him stand on the parapet of the
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: temple and said to him if you are the son
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: of God, throw yourself down, for it is
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: written, he will command his angels
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: concerning you, and with their hands they
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: will support you lest you dash your foot
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: against a stone.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Jesus answered him again.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: It is written you shall not put the Lord,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: your God, to the test Now.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: And then you're going to say that the devil
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: knows that Jesus can call on the angels to
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: save him.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: And we see this, you know, when the whole
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: time he's being humiliated and beaten on
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the way to be uncrucified.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: He could have done that.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: And then I'm going to skip forward a little
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: bit in the book and he says yes, it's a
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: wonder that God would take on human form.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: But this exploration gains an even deeper
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: meaning upon realizing that God submits to
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: human nature to the point of being
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: helplessly, mortally weak.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: It's one thing to be humble, quite another
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: thing to be humiliated.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: And when Jesus falls, it rapidly becomes
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: clear how thoroughly God commits to the
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: incarnation.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: God has accepted human frailty, not
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: partially but entirely.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: And Jesus's responses perhaps most
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: remarkable, for what he does doesn't do
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: them.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: For what he does, jesus doesn't call on
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: angels, doesn't summon superhuman physical
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: strength and doesn't retaliate against his
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: aggressors.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: He doesn't even spare himself the
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: humiliation.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Jesus won't satiate nor deny, nor press the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: human condition, not when tested by the
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: devil in the desert, nor by the crowds
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: during his, during his ministry, nor by his
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: persecutors at the end.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: For God didn't take on human form to
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: satiate, deny or press, but to redeem.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: And when I read that, dude, I went amen.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, that gave me goosebumps.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: When I read that I was like that is that's
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: it, right there, that's it.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: I mean he could have.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: We know Jesus could have stopped all of
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: that, but everything he was going, even to
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: sit and think about that for a minute, is
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: humbling for me.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: How often do we want to fight back against
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: our aggressors and fight against being
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: humiliated?
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: It's not our human nature.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: He didn't do it and he's our perfect
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: example of how we're supposed to behave.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying that we can take on the
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: nature of Christ and be just like Christ.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: It's not all the time sometimes, but not
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: all the time.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Most people don't realize it.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Jesus gets, I think, a lousy reputation as
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: a guy who was just weak all the time and
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: passive yeah, but if you read the Gospels,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: jesus Christ is a badass.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: He's a tough ombre and he teaches people
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: active defiance.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: He doesn't teach people revenge.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: That's the thing you were talking about.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Is that you have that impulse to get
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: revenge on people.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Jesus does not get revenge on people.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: He preaches defiance.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: He's really good at it.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: He preaches people being tough and being
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: resilient and being vigilant.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: He tells people to be vigilant, but not to
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: be what we would call vigilantes looking
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: for that kind of vengeance, that vengeful
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: desire to do to other people the evil that
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: we think has been done to us.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: But he's the kind of person who will do
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: everything in his power to make things
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: right, except God will not do evil to us
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: and in fact, as I try to get into a little
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: later in the book, god will not even take
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: back his gifts.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I went through this just this morning.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: In adult education class we were talking
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: about the cross and so I brought up one of
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: our students was saying well, the cross.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Someone asked me why would we wear a cross
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: around our neck.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Why would we have a cross up in our church?
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: That's somebody being killed.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Why would we have that?
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I say, well, we don't have it up because we
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: agree with people being killed by the state.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: We have it there because the cross reminds
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: us that God does not take back his gifts,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: even when we misuse them.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: If you've ever wondered would God take away
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: free will if someone used free will the
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: wrong way?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Your evidence that the answer is no is
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Jesus' persecution.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Jesus will not take away people's free will
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and turn them into puppets on strings, even
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: when he's being persecuted, beaten, whipped,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: scourged, paraded through town, nailed to a
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: cross and left up there to suffocate.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: God will not take away grace.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Even then, the most God will do and thank
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: God for this will just keep showing us over
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: and over again.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: No, there's a better way to do your being
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: human.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: There's a better way to be happy.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: There's a better way to thrive.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: There's a better way to flourish.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: What you're doing is not really flourishing.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: It may feel good because you're controlling
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: another person, you're brutally controlling
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: another person, but that's not really human
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: flourishing.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: So God won't take away his gifts.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: God will not do evil to us, even when we do
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: evil to God.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: God will always be that beacon of light and
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: try to show us virtue.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: There's enough vice in the human condition
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: already.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: There's enough vice in the world.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: God will not show us more vice.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: God will show us virtue.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: The way of the cross is if you thought
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Jesus was just kidding, if you thought God
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: was just kind of joking around with the
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: incarnation and he was just here for
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: giggles and a few magic tricks, the way of
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: the cross should drive it home to you that
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: there must be something beautiful about the
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: human condition for God to do this.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I try to expound on that later in the book,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: but it's there.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: There are hints of it the whole way as you
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: examined what Jesus went through, his
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: ordeal and this way of the cross.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Well, we're going to talk about a little
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: bit of that right now.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: In station five, station five, simon helps
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: carry Jesus' cross.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, I like this station because we
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: talk about more of Scripture that gets
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: misinterpreted badly.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: What stood out to you about it?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: I don't want to pretend that I know your
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: question already.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Well, no, what I was going to start with
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: was Matthew 539-41, because we talk about
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: the nonviolent nature of Christ and how he
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: explains how he wants us to behave.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you consider yourself a
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: pacifist.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I consider myself a guy who doesn't
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: initiate violence.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: There you go I don't call the cops on my
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: neighbors.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: I don't do other things like that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: I don't write to my legislator because
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: someone's ticking me off.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: It's probably my legislator that's ticking
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: me off.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: What would the point of that be?
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: He's not going to listen to you.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Anyway.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: In the Scripture as you said, or not what
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: you said the Bible says when someone
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: strikes you on your right cheek, turn the
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: other one to him as well.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: If anyone wants to go to law with you over
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Should anyone press you into service for
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: one mile, go with him for two miles.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: And you parallel this with Simon going that
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: extra mile, carrying Jesus cross and then
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: becoming part of the church, okay, and also
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: being pressed into service.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Being pressed into service for sure, yep,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: it seemed like you weren't sure if he,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: prior to that, if he was on Jesus' side or
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: if he became on Jesus' side.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: We don't know.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: We don't know beforehand, but eventually it
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: seems quite clear from the Scriptures that
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: he does.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: But we don't know initially.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, we're probably a lot of people
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: witnessing this who were kind of on the
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: fence.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Maybe they had heard about Jesus, maybe not,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: but they knew the Romans were doing
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: something and you know, you got to look,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: you got to see what's happening.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well then, you went on to explain the
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: three cases in the Scripture.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: You said, in each of these three cases,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: jesus preaches defiance of the rigidly
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: hierarchical social order.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: In other words, jesus teaches to be a good
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: neighbor but a bad citizen.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: First, most people are right handed,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: whether naturally or with lots of practice.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: To be struck on the right cheek means you
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: received a backhand slap, which was done by
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: superiors to inferiors.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, offering your left cheek is to
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: declare yourself defiantly to be your
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: striker's equal.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I love that, by the way.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Second, a cloak was a vital possession that
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: could not be withheld from its owner
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: overnight.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: To a plaintiff who would use a court to
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: take your tunic over a debt, giving him
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: your cloak would suddenly turn the
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: plaintiff's own chairs of legalism against
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: him.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Third, the Roman occupiers of Palestine, as
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: they called it, could force a local man
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: into hard labor, but only for a maximum of
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: one mile.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: To keep going beyond a mile put the Roman
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: at risk of punishment if his superiors
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: found out.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Another dignity asserting active defiance
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: and it seems that Simon would indeed
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: eventually go the extra mile a clear act of
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: defying the Roman and Israelite authorities
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: by joining the church.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: By joining the church.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: I think that's great.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: That's one thing.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: When we talk about pacifism when I was
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: reading that, when we're talking about
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: pacifism, we talked about pacifism quite a
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: bit on the show.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: When you're talking about being slapped and
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: then turning the other cheek, I mean
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of Christians that believe in
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: self-defense and that's a whole other topic
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I don't want to get into right now.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: But when people view pacifism, they really
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: get pacifism wrong.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: They're not understanding what pacifism is.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Correct and they're not getting that Bible
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: passage correct most of the time either.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: People think turn the other cheek means
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: we'll let the guys hit you again, yeah.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Just keep make yourself a doormat and let
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: people keep hitting you.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Well, that's not all what Jesus is talking
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: about there.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Remember, Jesus Christ is a badass Like
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: he's a tough dude.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna make a meme.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Jesus is a badass.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, because then it's
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: pacifism is viewed as, like you just said,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: a doormat.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: And he was not a doormat.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: And, going back to what we read in station
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: three, all of this, everything he's doing
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: at the very end of the day was so he could
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: redeem, yes, and he's teaching these, he's
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: teaching these people this along the way.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Do this Because, as you're doing this, I
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: think it, I don't think I think it, I know
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: it humbles people to the point where it's
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: like what is this guy all about?
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Maybe I need to know more about this Jesus
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: guy.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: You know, and I think that's.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: I love Jesus and I love the way he did
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: things and I love the way he questioned
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: things and I love the way he was a bad
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: citizen.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Because it makes total sense when you, when
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: you put all of the scripture together,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: especially the New Testament, when you, we
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: talk, when you look at the life of Jesus
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: and how he behaved and how he interacted
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: with, with governing authorities, man, he
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: humbled them along the way in the entire
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: time, because how many times did they try
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: to trap him and ask him to get him to and
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: asking him questions?
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: How many times did he return to them with
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: another question and they could not answer
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: and they had to turn around and walk away
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: because there was no answer to what he said.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: That's humbling to a human being.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: That's humbling to anybody when you're like,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: oh, he just got me, I have no response to
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: this.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: And he didn't have to.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: He did not have to put put his message out
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: there violently.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: All he did was ask a question and then they
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: walked away and they had to think about it
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: along the way and I just to me, that is one
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: of the most beautiful aspects of the
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: ministry of Christ was how he could humble
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: people without being violent, without
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: shaming them.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: He just asked a question and if you can't
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: answer, that's kind of on.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: You Go think about it and get back to me
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: later and then we'll talk about it.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: And that's the key is is the door is always
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: open with Jesus.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: You know you can get back to him later.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: If he stumps you on something and you go
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: back and you pray about it and you grapple
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: with it, the door's always open for you to
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: come back and see Jesus later.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: You know you brought up something there
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: about self-defense or pacifism or something.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: When we are attacked, the most instinctual
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: thing to do is what's called the fight or
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: flight reflex.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: And so it's either fight, meaning, you know,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: do it back to the other person, or flight,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: you know, run away in fear.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Or sometimes it's fight or flight, or
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: freeze, you know, I don't know what to do,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: so I'm just going to be frozen and let
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: myself, you know, keep getting hit, and
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Jesus offers you another way there.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: You know, if someone puts you down and
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: tries to make you their inferior, jesus
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: isn't saying, well, turn the tables on him
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: and show him that you're really that guy's
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: superior.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: No, he's not saying that.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: He's also not saying, well, yeah, I guess
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: you just have to be that guy's inferior
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: forever and just take it and think of
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: yourself that way.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: He's not saying that either.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: He's telling people channel your dignity,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: channel your dignity, your inherent worth
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: that you have as a human being and respond
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: with that.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: If what the other person is doing to you is
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: wrong, then you're not right for doing it
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: back to them.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: You might be getting even with them, but
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: you know, getting even does not mean that
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: you chose the best thing.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: You're also not doing a good thing if you
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: become a doormat for people and have no
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: respect for yourself or for the people that
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: you may have to help teach and lead and
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: protect in your own small, quiet ways.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: So there's another way.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Christianity is difficult because it goes
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: against the psychological path of least
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: resistance on which almost all other
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: religions are based.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: The path of least resistance for the human
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: psyche is hierarchy imposed by force.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Animals behave that way, chimpanzees behave
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: that.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Chimpanzees have governments Okay, they're
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: tribal.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: They have hierarchies, they're enforced by
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: brutality.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: They have wars with other tribes.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Chimpanzees have this Fight or flight.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: That's that psychological path of least
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: resistance.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Short-term preference and gain is path of
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: least resistance.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Retaliate, that's a quick impulse that
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: people have.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: That's all psychological path of least
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: resistance.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: And so many things, so many other belief
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: systems exalt that you know.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Citizenship certainly exalts that Strive
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: for status, strive for a place in society
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: where you can force your will onto other
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: people.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Go have a preemptive war somewhere.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Looks like those people need some democracy.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: We better bring it to them All these other
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: belief systems.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: They just rely on putting a suit and tie
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: and some lipstick and eyeshadow on the
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: psychological path of least resistance.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: And Christ, of course, is telling you no,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: don't take the psychological path of least
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: resistance, don't take the chimpanzee way
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: out.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Don't take the chimpanzee way out.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Don't take the chimpanzee way out.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: Man, you've evolved right.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Rise above the chimpanzee level of IQ.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Rise above the chimpanzee level of IQ.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: You're capable of so much more.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I want to touch on something briefly.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: There's Station 6 of Veronica Watch Jesus'
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Face, and I told you before we started
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: recording we had time.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: I want to touch on it.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: I still want to touch on it for the sake of
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: time.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Let's kind of try and keep this part brief,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: because there's two more stations I want to
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: touch on before we end the show.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Tell me about it.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: So there's no biblical evidence of somebody
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: named Veronica.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: No, why did you add somebody named Veronica
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: into Station 6?
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe just explain who Veronica is and
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: what's going on here?
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: She is traditionally part of the ancient
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: stations of the cross.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Okay that there were, that there was some.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: First of all, jesus has many followers and
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: benefactors, many of whom were women, who
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: aided his ministry.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Because it takes money, it takes food, it
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: takes resources to be an itinerant preacher
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: and to have your band of 12 buddies
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: following you around.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: So they do receive financial help from many
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: people, including many women.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Some of them are named in the Bible, many
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: of them are not.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: They're just kind of glossed over, as many
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: others.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: And so you wonder why would the early
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: church and tradition have kept a station
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: about this seemingly obscure woman who
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: wipes Jesus' face while he's being cajoled
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: to put it nicely back to his feet after he
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: falls?
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: And it seems to me that this is here to
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: show us what kindness means.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: And it's almost futile.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Veronica, wiping Jesus' face does not mean
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: that he's going to be saved from his
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: torture on the cross.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: It's just a small act of kindness that
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: somebody did for someone who was in trouble.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: It's someone who took a risk to be kind to
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: somebody who was.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: It was so easy to just cheer on the Romans
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: and the Sanhedrin and everybody that the
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Israelite leaders had whipped into a frenzy.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: It would have been so easy to be out there
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: for the parade because that's what this was
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: and just cheer them on.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: It was a lot harder to have empathy and
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: sympathy and compassion for the outcast,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: and this is just a simple you know, I tried
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: to write it there.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: The woman known traditionally as Veronica
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: represents whomever had the courage to do
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: some small acts of good for this pitiful
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: criminal, jesus.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Perhaps you can't be blameless like Mary or
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: physically strong like Simon, but if you
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: stay alert and ready you can find
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: opportunities to be a good neighbor to
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: someone in need.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: You can share kindness like Veronica.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: You know I love the stories in the Bible
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: about women who follow Jesus, because
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: there's so much made of, you know, of how
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: this who should be teaching in church and
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: who should be leaders in church.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: And I've made a point and when I had made
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: the point more than once on the show that
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: during all all this was going on, and even
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: after Jesus was resurrected, it was women
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: that were there with him, because all the
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: men were hiding Many of them and I like I
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: like to point that out because there's for
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: some reason, and I can't stand in church
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: that treats a woman as a second class
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: citizen.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: I've seen it too often in churches that
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I've attended and I can't stand it.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: So I always like to point that out whenever
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: I can on the show or to people I'm talking
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: to just in real life.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: About it too, I was like you do understand
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: that the women were there when he was
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: resurrected, when he was there at the cross,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: whatever, just like you were talking about
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Veronica.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: They are so important in the teaching of
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: the ministry of Christ and I don't I hate
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: that they're treated as second class
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: citizens.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's my soapbox moment for women
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: in the church.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Well, back then they were Back then, to be
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: a good citizen, you had to be a man or you
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: had to be a woman attached to a man, either
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: because you were the man's wife, the man's
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: daughter.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: You know, a woman's status in the
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: hierarchical society was based on the man
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: to whom she attached herself.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: But Jesus never taught them or never
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: treated them that way.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: No, because Jesus wasn't concerned with
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: good citizens, he was concerned with good
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: neighbors.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: See, only men back, then only men could be
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: really good citizens.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Men and women and children could be good
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: neighbors.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Jesus calls people to be good neighbors.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: There you go, there you go.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: All right, let's skip to station nine.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Now Jesus falls the third time he said.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Station nine emphasizes that Jesus does not
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: arrive at Golgotha full of physical vigor,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: but as a broken man whose life has nearly
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: expired.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: His dire condition presents an opportunity
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: to reflect on the good citizen model of
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: crime and justice.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Jesus confronts such a dilemma not long
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: before his current predicament.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: This is the story about the woman who was
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: caught in adultery, and this is one of
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: those parts where Jesus turned pretty much
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: humiliated or humbled.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, not email, but humbled them.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, humbled them in this.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Whatever.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Let's just read it, because I love this
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: part of the Bible so much, because there's
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: so many legalistic type Christians, there's
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: so many Christians out there pointing the
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: finger at somebody else and not even
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: looking at themselves.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: a woman who had been caught in adultery and
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: made her stand in the middle.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: This is John 8, 3-11.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: They said to him teacher, this woman was
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: caught in the very act of committing
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: adultery.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: Now, in the law, moses commanded us to
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: stone such a woman.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: So what do you say?
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: They said this to test him so that they
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: could have some charges to bring against
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: him.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Jesus bent down and began to write on the
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: ground with his finger, and I've always
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: been curious about what he was writing in
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: the ground.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered what Jesus was doing
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: there?
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: All right, anyway.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: But then when they continued asking him, he
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: straightened up and said to them let the
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: one among you who is without sin be the
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: first to throw a stone at her.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Again, he bent down and wrote on the ground
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: and in response they went away, one by one,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: beginning with the elders.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: So he's left alone with the woman before
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: him.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Then Jesus straightened up and said to her
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: woman where are they?
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Has no one condemned you?
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: She replied no one.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: No one, sir.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Then Jesus said neither do I condemn you.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Go and from now on do not sin anymore.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: That very last part or people were like
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: well, it wasn't me and he was condoning her
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: adultery.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: No, he wasn't condoning her adultery.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: No you're correct, he was not condoning it,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: correct.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: But at the whole point of that scripture,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: the way I read is why don't you work on
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: yourself before you start trying to throw
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: stones at somebody else for their sin?
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing there's one
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: sin graded in the other, a sin to sin.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Now, in our human mind, okay, murder is
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: worse than theft, maybe I mean, but to me
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: it's a sin to sin, in my opinion.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: So this scripture's man, this scripture's,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: caused so many debates between me and other
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: Christians because I'm like.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: All he's saying is if you're without sin,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: you throw the stone at her.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: He humbled him.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Well, what he's doing is basically he's
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: he's destroying the very notion of criminal
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: justice, that there should be human
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: institutions going around.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: And the law of Moses commanded us to stone
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: such wrong Right.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's destroying that whole notion
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: because, like you said, he's not telling
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: the woman that, oh, you were wrongly
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: accused.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: He flat out tells her she's guilty, go from
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: and from now on do not sin anymore.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: He's telling her yes, I know you sin, don't
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: do it again, but you know you're not
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: condemned.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: So does Jesus condone adultery?
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: No, but you know what he condones.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Even less coercive civil authority.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, and getting together with your mob,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: your gang, your, your, your criminal gang,
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: in suits and fancy titles to inflict harm
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: on people under some some twisted notion
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: that you're, you're achieving justice by
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: doing it.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: You know there, there are zero examples in
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: the gospels of Jesus teaching coercive,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: invasive acts to keep social order Zero.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: While Jesus is certainly against sinful
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: behavior, he offers no justifications for
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: individuals nor institutions threatening or
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: inflicting harm, even toward the guilty.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: You know that that's.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: That's sort of the end of of Station 9
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: there.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that scripture, like I
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: said a while ago, has caused so many
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: different debates among other Christians.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: I love the way you put that out there,
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: because it's against coercive civil.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Would you say coercive civil?
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: Cor, coercive civil authorities, monopoly,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: violence institutions.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: The idea that some people are allowed to
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: violate others because it's good for order.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Well, it's another thing, too, that I
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: pointed out to us that when Jesus came on
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: the scene, he was correcting a lot of bad
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: theology.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: And he was correcting some very bad
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: theology there.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, because Moses said this.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Well, what did Jesus say?
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear this a lot of times from
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Christians too.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Well, paul said this, or Moses said this,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: or whoever, and I'm like, okay, but what
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: did Jesus say?
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Because we see very early on that Jesus
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: came to correct a lot of bad theology, a
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: lot of bad thinking, and just because it's
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: in the Bible doesn't mean that they may
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: have got this thing wrong.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: And Jesus is like hang on a second.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: This is what I meant.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: This is what I meant.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: As Christians, we read the entirety of the
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: Bible in light of Christ.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: So yeah, the Bible is littered with people
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: who get things wrong, who don't have enough
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: knowledge, who get things incomplete,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: People who sin, people who sin terribly.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: It's full of people succumbing to pagan
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: influences and they're worse natures.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: And I get so frustrated with Christians too.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: They want to put the Bible above Christ.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Like, don't get me wrong, I love my Bible.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: I've learned a lot about Jesus from my
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Bible, but I've also learned a lot about
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Jesus from Dominic, from my mom, from my
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: grandmother, you know, from several other
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Christians, you know.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of back in the day.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: A lot of people couldn't even read yes,
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Only 3% of the people could read Sure, but
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: they were hearing about Jesus from word of
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: mouth, Sure.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: And by modeling it.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I hate getting here with that too Well, you
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: would know about Jesus without the Bible.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: No, that's not true.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: It took a generation and a half for there
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: to be a written New Testament.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: anyway, I see too often with Christians and
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: this is going to may get me in trouble with
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: some of my listeners.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Feel free to email me at theBatter on the
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Podcast at gmailcom, because I don't
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: believe that the Bible is above Jesus and
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: when you start putting the Bible above
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Jesus, you're doing Jesus a disservice.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: That's not fair to Jesus.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's another soapbox moment for
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Craig.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: No, but that's good and it gives most of
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Jesus' recorded public ministry.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: Is him going around correcting people's
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: mistakes?
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: Here you're absolutely right, and he's
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: correcting the mistakes of people who were
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: familiar with the Israelite scriptures and
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: the history.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: He's not, you know, he's not correcting
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: total noobs.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: They're pretty knowledgeable about what the
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: scripture says.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: He's correcting the Pharisees, he's
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: correcting the Sadducees, he's correcting
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: the scholars of the law.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: So y'all got this wrong.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you what I meant by all this.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: All right, we're going to skip to now to
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: station 12.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: And I remember on our.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Zoom call.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: You were like go read, let me know when you
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: get to station 12.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, now I'm going to tell you I
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: got to station 12 because I've read the
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: book, but I like station 12 quite a bit.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: The Jesus dies on the cross and you listed
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: several.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: There's four different verses Matthew 2750,
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: mark 1537, luke 2346 and John 1930.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: I'll read the John verse.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: It says when Jesus had taken the wine, he
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: said it is finished and, bowing his head,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: he handed over the spirit.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: You didn't explain any scriptures.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Your next line was good cops killed Jesus.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: That was your next line.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Are we going to get spicy now?
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: Did we wait till the very end?
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: I think we've been a little spicy
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: throughout the show, but this is we're
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: going to get spicy.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: This is spicy, yeah.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, I had to explain what it means that
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: Jesus dies.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Well, you said, good cops kill Jesus, not
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: bad cops, not road cops, not corrupt cops.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Good cops, the ones who obey orders and
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: follow their training and protocols, the
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: ones who care about their communities and
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: keep the streets safe and secure, the ones
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: who are just doing their jobs and trying to
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: go home to their families hey, they don't
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: make the rules, they just enforce them.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Stop resisting.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Good cops kill Jesus.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: This is a thing that's a stickler.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go to a lot of the especially
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: American Christians when it comes to the
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: police, and I know a lot of cops are
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Christians.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: I don't have this discussion with it.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: They want to talk to me about it.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to them about it.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: I'm very open about it on my Facebook page
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: about how I feel about this.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: From my understanding in the early church,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: if you had any kind of, if you were a Roman
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: soldier, which in that day, a Roman soldier
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: was also a cop.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: It's the same the soldier, the cop is the
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: same thing they're enforcers, especially in
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: occupied territory.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Right and you had to, and you had to
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: denounce, you had to leave that job if you
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: wanted to be a part of the church.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: That's how strict the church was about this
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: and early, like if you, if you, held a
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: position that could inflict any harm on
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: anybody, you had to lose that position
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: before you'd be welcomed into the church.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: That's how, that's how much they took
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: non-violence seriously.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, so this whole idea that I get some of
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: these cop pages that are that are so cringe
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: to me, like they want to post stuff on
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Easter and they got their cop cars and
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: there's a cross.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: They're talking about how great they are
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: and they're thank you for your service, and
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: I'm like you do know it was cops that
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: killed Jesus, right, and it's silence.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: But this is.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: I want to kind of drill down on this before
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: I let you go, because let's get a little
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: spicy about this, because I think this is
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: this has to be understood among Christians
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: who are some back in the blue and back in
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: the the, the soldiers and all this stuff.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Don't don't get me wrong when I say don't
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: hate them but stop supporting their
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: violence Just because you think what
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: they're doing is right If they have the
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: potential to harm somebody.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: That's not the way of the cross.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: We've seen it this whole through the whole
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: book, how Jesus was behaving the whole time
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: he was being humiliated, being scourged and
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: then eventually crucified.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: He was not acting violently back when he
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: could have stopped being a good cop.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: And this is another thing where they say,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: well, it's not, there's no, there's just
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: some bad apples within the police
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: department.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Pardon my language horse shit, horse shit,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: because the whole thing is designed to
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: protect the state, protect the rules.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: If there's a if, without these enforcers,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: who is going to kill Jesus?
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Without these enforcers, who's going to
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: come and kick down your door and take your
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: weapon away from you?
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: Without these enforcers, if you don't pay
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: your taxes, who's going to come arrest you?
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: The politicians aren't.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: They're cowards.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: They're hiding behind there.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: They're hiding behind the enforcers who
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: have the guns.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Let's be real about this for a second.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: You really did read the rest of station 12.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: Well, I didn't have to because I did, but I
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: didn't have to.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: I've been reading this stuff, I've been
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: believing this stuff for a while now and I
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: get so frustrated with Christians when it
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: comes to this type of thing.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I see I've got friends on Facebook
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: who are cops and I adore them and they're
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Christians and I just I don't know where
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: they.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: What's going on in their mentality is like
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: well, we're, there's one is a dangerous but
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: loving, or something.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: I was like what the hell does that mean?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Dangerous to what, loving to what?
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking dangerous to somebody,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: but loving to somebody else.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't, I don't really know
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: what it means.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: It's, it's I don't know, anyway, why don't
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: you talk about what a good cop is.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Well, station 12 is the high point of Jesus
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: dying, is the high point of the drama.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: It's the high point of the narrative.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, yes, I get into the redemption at
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: the end.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: That's the extra station I threw in there
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: because it's traditionally 14 stages.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: It ends with Jesus in the tomb and I add
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: the little bit of redemption after it to
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: get to 15 stations.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: But yeah, the high point of it is Jesus
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: dying and just the reality of what had to
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: happen here.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good cops killed Jesus, like you were
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: saying.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: You know, I do write in the book loyal law
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: enforcers are the engine of the monopoly
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: violence institution.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Without them, the authority claimed by the
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: high status ruling class is impotent.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: That's what you were talking about.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: Like what's the politician going to come to
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: your door and kick it down?
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Without them, the civic virtue claimed by
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: the proudly compliant and often cowardly
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: ordinary people feel unrewarded.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: People ask me if I'm a populist because I'm
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: against the elites, and I say no, because
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: I'm also against the common people.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: You know I'm against everybody who's, you
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: know, doing lazy ethics and lazy thinking
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: and trying to enforce it on other people.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm against the, of course, I'm against
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: the ruling elites, but I'm also against the
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: cowards who are the populists, who worship
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: this stuff anyway, even if they don't
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: really have the guts to do it themselves.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: You know they just want to outsource their
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: evil to someone else.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: They want to outsource their violence to
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: somebody else.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: You're not any less of the criminal because
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: you outsourced it.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: That's something I say all the time.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: When you go to vote, when you're going to
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: participate in this politics, you're
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: outsourcing your own sin to somebody else.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: I am one.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: You're cheering for it.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: You're cheering for it.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: I'm 100% convinced of that.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: When you go vote, when you put these people
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: in power, you're outsourcing genocide that
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: you won't.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: You're too, you're not going to commit on
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: your own, but you're okay with somebody
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: else doing it.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, voting is a way to trick people into
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: thinking that what the government does is
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: virtuous because I got to participate, and
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: if I got to participate then it couldn't
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: have been bad.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: If I got to participate then it couldn't
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: have been wrong.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Well, no, they tricked you into
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: participating in something that's wrong.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: We tricked you into thinking that vice is
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: virtue.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: I was guilty of it.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: I was guilty of it, too, for a long time.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: We all are.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: We're all born that way and it's up to us
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: to mature and get out of it.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: And Christ helps us get out of it.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Christ made me an anarchist.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: I started off as just a cultural Western
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: American and Christ got me out of it.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: Christ saved me from Martyr.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Christ saved me from the God of imposed
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: order that everybody worships when they're
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: born, even if they don't know the name.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I've often said the only reason I am
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: an anarchist is because I'm a Christian.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: I mean I don't really care about the label
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: anymore, because now when I tell people
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: that I don't vote, I don't participate in
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: politics and I'll pay attention to it as
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: much as I need to.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: But it's like Tertullian said it's
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: completely foreign to us.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: I don't even use the word anarchist that
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: often anymore because all that had to do is
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: when I'm talking to another Christian.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: I don't use the anarchy because it confuses
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: on them and they think Anta.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: For whatever Sean Hannity and Donald Trump
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: believe, anarchy is why don't participate
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: is because I'm a Christian.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: That's why I don't participate.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: There's nothing about the teachings of
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: Christ that tells me that I should go put
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: somebody in power over my neighbor.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: In fact, jesus said in Matthew it shall not
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: be so among you.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: He says that in a few of them.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: I didn't say that.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Don't get mad at me.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: Go talk to Jesus about it.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Then he's going to ask you another question.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: You're going to have to go back and think
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: about what you just asked him.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: That's in the introduction that you
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: reminded people not to skip if they pick up
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: the book.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: The role of the disciples.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Yep man, this has been fun and I apologize
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: for interrupting you.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: I got a little fired up during the show.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting to.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: But everything you put down in this book,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: like I said, there's parts of it that gave
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: me goosebumps.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: There are parts of it that are like amen,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: it's stuff that I'm going to keep.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: I'm going to read it again and again, and
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: again and again, because I don't think
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with having a
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: refresher, because you need that motivation.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: You got to get picked up again because
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: sometimes you get tired, sometimes you're
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: out there in the world and you're just
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: being drugged down.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: We can go read Good Neighbor, bad Citizen
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: by Dominic Scarcella and it'll pick you
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: back up and remind you of how you're
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: supposed to behave as a Christian.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: This is not something that Dominic is
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: telling you how to behave.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: He goes through the scripture and he points
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: out how Jesus taught it and how Jesus
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: behaved.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: How Jesus lived it.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: That's the key right how Jesus behaved.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: If God wanted just another prophet to tell
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: people what to do, he would have sent
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: another prophet.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, god shows up in the person of
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: Jesus to lead by example.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: It's a difference between show and tell.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: He gave all these people, all these
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: opportunities to express God to these other
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: people, he's like all right, then what's
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: that saying?
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: You just got to do it, you want something
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: done right, you got to do it yourself right.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: It's a difference between show and tell
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: right, tell and tell and tell.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: And doesn't that resonate with us in our
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: lives?
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: People telling us what to do, even if it's
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: the right thing, it doesn't stick with this
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: as much as someone showing us and then
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: taking it a step further, someone engaging
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: with us as we learn it.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: So it's beyond tell and it's even beyond
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: show.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: It's all the way to being a good model and
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: a good example, like the guy who will learn
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: with you and teach with you.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: That's why I tell students go wrestle with
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: God.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: God wants you to get stronger and the way
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: you get stronger is to work those muscles.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: Go wrestle with God.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: God wants you to do it.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: God wants you to wrestle and grapple and
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: get stronger and get more agile and get
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: more flexible and get more resilient.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: How many times have you learned something
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: by being humbled?
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: By being humbled.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: It depends on whether or not I reflect on
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: it.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: Well for sure.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: So I guess one of my biggest things was
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: like I'm so stubborn by nature but I
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: haven't gotten to this point, to where I am
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: now, without being humbled along the way,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: because I thought I had it all figured out,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: turns out, but I didn't have it.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: And it's not because of something somebody
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: else said.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: It's something that they can point to, what
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Jesus said, and I can't argue with Jesus.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: It's not going to go wrestle with him, but
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, he's going to ask me
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: a question in return and I'm going to have
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: to walk away and think about it.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I'm not going to come back
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: with another question, and I think that's
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: okay.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: I think it's okay to keep coming back with
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: more questions to Jesus and to God and to
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: get the answers you're looking for.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: He wants that relationship with you.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: That's a beautiful thing.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: As deeply as you seek the Holy Spirit.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit is unfathomably deep.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: You will not ex If you have an active faith
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: active and you want to pursue it.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: You will not exhaust God.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: You will not exhaust God.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: Keep going.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: I like that a lot, keep going.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Dig deeper, keep going.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: You will not exhaust God.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: Not only that, you're not going to annoy
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: God where God goes.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, this guy again.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: Well, sometimes I wonder if he's scratching
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: his head when he looks at some of my stuff.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, Craig, here we go again.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: All right, Dominic, I'm going to let you
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: get out here, but before I do I want you to
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: plug whatever you want to plug on.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: You got a new sub stack and you got to
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: podcast your own.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: If you want to plug that, feel free and
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: tell where everybody's already found your
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: book at.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: Well, the book is available on Amazon.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: That seems to be the easiest way for people
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: to get it and also the fastest way to get
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: it.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: If you have a Kindle, or even if you just
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: have the desktop the free Kindle app you
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: can get it as an e-book.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: You can get the paper back Printed for you
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: on demand, which is a great thing that
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Amazon has.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: So people ask me for books sometimes and I
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: don't have the books.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: I didn't have to order 10,000 books and
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: leave them in my apartment and you know
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: I've got crates of books hanging around.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: Amazon will print it when you order it and
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: ship it out to you.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: It's the most efficient way to get to you.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: It's the least amount of fuel miles, it's
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: the least amount of packaging, it's.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: It's really a marvelous setup they have.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: You can order a paperback if you want, if
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: you want to do what you were talking about
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: and keep it in your pocket, in your bag
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: with you, where you need it and revisit it
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: as you, as you feel the inclination to.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: You can find the sub stack.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: It's a good neighbor, bad citizen on sub
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: stack.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: I tried to keep the name similar and the
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: first sub stack post up.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: There is what you're talking about.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: Some problems with the word anarchy and
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: some problems even with popular
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: connotations of Christian ethics.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: And maybe I should go read that and get you
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: back on the show and we'll talk about that.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: The good neighbor, bad citizen journey,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: exploring anarchism, exploring Christianity
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: and the beautiful harmony between the two.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: That's kind of, I think, if I'm remembering
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: correctly what the subtitle was.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: But it's.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: I did the sub stack because I think I want
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: to continue this conversation with whoever
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: wants to keep having the conversation, so
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: that maybe the book is just a jumping off
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: point.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: So now I'm really into it.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: I had no intention of writing the book and
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: I not only wrote the book, but now I've
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: started a sub stack and now I've locked
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: myself into, you know, doing something
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: weekly on the sub stack for people.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to stick with that for as long
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: as I can, maybe even do more, but yes, for
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: people who want to continue the
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: conversation, I want there to be a way for
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: people to do that.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: The sub stack is free.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: There's no paid tier.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: If I ever get to the point where there's
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: enough content where I think there's enough
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: value to offer a paid tier for people who
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: really do want to contribute, then I'll
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: make that decision at that point.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: But for now it's, it's all free.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: There's no charge for keeping in touch,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: right, awesome, that's awesome.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and go check out the sub stack.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: I'm going to certainly check out the sub
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: stack.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: I think I saw you mentioned it on Facebook
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: and I haven't gotten to it yet.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: Now I'm really intrigued about that first
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: article that you put up there.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: And again, folks, go pick up the book.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: It's very affordable, very short read.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: You can get done in 45 minutes.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: It took me two weeks because I was taking
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: it to work and trying to get it to get it
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: read through on my break time at work and
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: but I got it done and if I had said it home
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: and read it, I could have got it done
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: probably in 45 minutes.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: It's that short, it's a, it's a, it's a
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: great read.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Again, go pick it up, Dominic.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate this man.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: We're going to get you back home.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: This has been fun.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I will jump on the pod whenever man.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: I hope you didn't get tired of me being so
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: fired up.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, sometimes I I get a
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: little fired up sometimes and sometimes a
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: little more docile on show, but this topic
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: really gets me fired up and I was looking
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: forward to getting to talk to you today.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: Good, good I I.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: This was a great conversation with me.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: I didn't this is the first podcast I'm
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: recording, since you're the first one who
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: who asked me and scheduled me to do this.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: So I'm I'm flattered and and very grateful
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: to, to you and to the bad Roman and to all
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: of the bad Roman podcast listeners for for
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: checking this out.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: And you know, stay in touch.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: You know, if we want the conversation to
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: continue, then it's, it's, it's us who who
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: have to continue it.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: So, please do, and if I can be of any help
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: in doing that and if I can lean on some
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: others, then that's what it means to to
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: have a community that is seeking together.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: That's our.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: We all have a personal faith, 100%, you
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: know but there's extra beauty and a shared
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: faith and I I think that's that's what
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: you're, what you're helping to do with the
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: bad Roman podcast and, and maybe that's
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: also what I'm helping to do with with this
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: unexpected project of mine.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: Good neighbor, bad citizen.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: Jesus was a good neighbor and a bad citizen.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: Deal with it, folks.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: Deal with it period.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: All right, dominic, I'm going to let you
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: get out of here and go enjoy the rest of
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: your day.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.