Latest / ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture and Impact / Is This Normal? The Sex Questions Women Don't Ask Out Loud

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Is This Normal? The Sex Questions Women Don't Ask Out Loud · ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture and Impact

• 0:00
  I think the more we learn about the sexual response in all
• 0:03
  people, but especially in folks born with ovaries, the more we
• 0:07
  realize it's very complicated and it is almost never just
• 0:11
  physical or just mental emotional.
• 0:13
  It's usually a lot of bolts. That's part of our conversation
• 0:17
  on sex, and this is Roar. Hey everybody, welcome to ROAR.
• 0:26
  This is Danielle Davies, and today we have a very special
• 0:29
  episode. Today's conversation is 1.
• 0:31
  A lot of women have privately. It happens in texts, in
• 0:35
  whispered conversations and in late night Google searches.
• 0:38
  When we ask things like, is this normal?
• 0:41
  We're talking about sex not in a clinical way, not in a
• 0:44
  performative way, but in a real human, slightly awkward,
• 0:48
  sometimes funny way because for something that's such a huge
• 0:51
  part of our lives, a lot of us were taught that it was either a
• 0:54
  private taboo or just supposed to magically work itself out.
• 0:58
  I'm really excited about the group joining me today because
• 1:00
  they each come at this conversation from a completely
• 1:03
  different but really complimentary perspective.
• 1:06
  And they are all amazing women who have been on this podcast
• 1:10
  before. So we've got Caitlin Tyvey,
• 1:12
  who's a physical therapist. She works extensively with
• 1:15
  pulpic pelvic floor concerns, helping women better understand
• 1:18
  what's actually happening in their bodies, especially when it
• 1:21
  comes to comfort, pain, tension, and function.
• 1:24
  And how to stop normalizing things that deserve real
• 1:27
  attention. She also consults with women
• 1:29
  health startups. She brings a scientific lens to
• 1:31
  how products, education, and care actually meet women where
• 1:35
  they are. Alex Robbie is a sex therapist
• 1:37
  who genuinely wants people to have great sex, full stop.
• 1:41
  She works with individuals and couples around desire,
• 1:44
  communication, and confidence. And she's also known for
• 1:47
  bringing sex education into unexpected places like
• 1:50
  Bachelorette parties, with the goal of less shame, more
• 1:53
  information, and a lot more fun. And Lisa Kinsella is the founder
• 1:57
  of Louie the Finer liner created after her own real life
• 2:01
  experiences navigating divorce, a history of breast cancer,
• 2:04
  limited contraception options, and the reality that women don't
• 2:08
  always have as much control as we're told we do.
• 2:10
  Her work sits at the intersection of health, design,
• 2:13
  safety and agency. So yes, we're going to talk
• 2:17
  about things that can still feel a little more defying to say out
• 2:19
  loud, especially for the non sex professionals like me.
• 2:23
  Desire changes, awkward conversations, sex toys, and the
• 2:27
  fact that some of these things are now sold at CVS.
• 2:30
  But we're going to do it in a way that feels honest, I hope,
• 2:32
  grounded and maybe even a little fun.
• 2:35
  I could be very red. Hopefully you're not looking at
• 2:37
  me the whole time and look at everybody else because if we
• 2:40
  can't talk about this here, where can we?
• 2:43
  Ladies, thank you so much for being here.
• 2:46
  Thanks for having us. And also I gave everybody the
• 2:49
  caveat that I would say you guys a lot because very New Jersey of
• 2:53
  me and I've never done a panel on the podcast before, but I
• 2:56
  already started off with ladies. So we're in the right direction.
• 3:00
  Let's just start right with the most embarrassing that way for
• 3:04
  me, the most embarrassing for me, and it shouldn't be.
• 3:06
  That's the other part of it, Talking about sex toys still
• 3:09
  makes me feel a little bit mortified.
• 3:12
  I'm 51 and I I explained to Lisa and Caitlin the other day too,
• 3:16
  that my husband came home from the store recently, the CVS, to
• 3:19
  pick up a prescription and was like, do you know that they're
• 3:22
  sex toys, like right in the aisle?
• 3:25
  So clearly something has shifted and I'm going to start with
• 3:29
  Alex. Alex why does fun sex still feel
• 3:33
  embarrassing for people like me? That's a great question.
• 3:38
  I feel like there's a million different answers, but I think
• 3:42
  there's so much secrecy and shame around sex that it can be
• 3:47
  really hard to acknowledge the pleasurable aspects and why
• 3:50
  everybody's doing it. And, you know, secrecy just
• 3:55
  shuts people down unless you're having an affair.
• 4:01
  But everyone is doing it. Everybody is doing it and, and
• 4:04
  apparently added stimulation and support can actually make sex
• 4:09
  more comfortable. Caitlin, since you're working
• 4:13
  with the physical body a lot or you you doing your practice, can
• 4:16
  you speak to that a little bit? Yeah, definitely.
• 4:20
  It's a really good point and in a lot of the work that I do,
• 4:23
  there is an element of vibration in many sex toys, but also
• 4:27
  therapeutic tools that people are using to, like you said,
• 4:31
  make sex more comfortable. I would I should level set and
• 4:35
  say that this can apply to anybody, regardless of whether
• 4:38
  or not you're having penetrative sex.
• 4:41
  Some people have discomfort just with penetration, whether it's
• 4:44
  with a penis or a toy or something else.
• 4:47
  But other people have symptoms, problems with just touch and
• 4:51
  just any stimulation to the genitalia.
• 4:54
  But as you noted, Danielle, regardless of where someone with
• 4:58
  discomfort is, if they have it, vibration and stimulation can be
• 5:02
  really powerful tools to reduce pain without getting a little
• 5:06
  too nerdy about it, which I am prone to do.
• 5:09
  We have a number of different nerve receptors in our body, in
• 5:12
  the skin, in the muscles, and then all the tissues and all the
• 5:16
  various different tissues. And some of them respond
• 5:19
  specifically to vibration impulses.
• 5:21
  Actually, some of them respond to pressure, some of them
• 5:24
  respond to temperature. Each different little nerve
• 5:27
  fiber is specialized. So the more different inputs we
• 5:31
  can get to those nerve fibers, the more interested those nerves
• 5:35
  become. The more the more the body goes,
• 5:37
  Oh, hey, what's going on down there?
• 5:39
  So that's one reason why for a lot of sex toys, for example,
• 5:43
  vibration is a component of it because it specifically talks to
• 5:47
  nerves that are involved in both arousal and in muscle
• 5:51
  relaxation. You've often made of heard like
• 5:54
  the the phrase of, oh, honey, if it hurts, just have a glass of
• 5:57
  wine and relax. It's fine.
• 6:00
  That's my pet peeve. I absolutely hate that.
• 6:03
  But with every lie or myth, there's always a nugget of
• 6:06
  truth, right? And we know that if the body is
• 6:09
  tense or the muscles are tense, pain can result.
• 6:13
  So vibration and stimulation can help muscles relax too.
• 6:16
  So for folks where who experience pain because of
• 6:20
  tightness, it can be a really powerful tool as well.
• 6:23
  OK. And honestly, just hearing the
• 6:26
  clinical side of it makes it feel more accessible.
• 6:30
  Do you know what I mean? Like, that's like, I'm like, oh,
• 6:32
  that takes all of that pressure off Lisa, who who've got who've
• 6:37
  got, you know, upcoming products that are going to be in these
• 6:40
  aisles. What shifted culturally when
• 6:43
  Lube and vibrators moved into just mainstream stores?
• 6:46
  This used to be like taboo. Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:50
  I know it's been so exciting this period of time.
• 6:53
  I think the, I think it's very generational.
• 6:58
  I think, you know, I interface a lot with these two groups.
• 7:01
  One it's, you know, my peers, perimenopausal, right?
• 7:05
  A lot of OBGYN's, they're serving perimenopausal women
• 7:08
  and, you know, moms of teens and then Gen.
• 7:11
  Z. And the contrast between those
• 7:15
  two generations is really stark. And it's so fun to, to, to be
• 7:19
  surfing this wave of, of that shift, right?
• 7:23
  I mean, for, for us, largely our foundations were really negative
• 7:29
  right back then in, you know, sex education, what sophomore in
• 7:34
  high school, or maybe it was 7th grade we went to in Chicago, we
• 7:37
  went to the Crown Center and learned how a baby was born.
• 7:40
  You know, it was like really super awkward.
• 7:43
  And that, that messaging back then was condom on a banana.
• 7:47
  Otherwise, you women, you girls, you are going to ruin your
• 7:51
  lives. You're going to have a baby or a
• 7:52
  disease. And that was that.
• 7:54
  And it was negative. It was scary, it was shameful.
• 7:59
  And, and you don't, you didn't talk about it.
• 8:01
  And that is so very different from today.
• 8:04
  I think there have been a lot of shifts just in society over the
• 8:11
  past decade that have ushered in this ability for this new
• 8:16
  generation Gen. Z, which is very subjective,
• 8:19
  right? They are, they are the, they are
• 8:21
  the the star of their own shows, right?
• 8:24
  They that is a natural, right? Their Instagram, it's all about
• 8:27
  selfie. It's all about them.
• 8:29
  And that's great. That is needed to be able to own
• 8:32
  your pleasure. And I think you know the what
• 8:36
  Femtech was first coined in I think 2017162016.
• 8:43
  Yeah. And it didn't really hit our
• 8:44
  consciousness until a few years later, right?
• 8:47
  I mean, what like that was never a thing until 10/8 to 10 years
• 8:52
  ago. That's crazy.
• 8:54
  I think after that we see, you know, what, what was like really
• 8:59
  next after that, the me too where women's voices, you know,
• 9:05
  that felt that came right after, I think didn't that come right
• 9:08
  after? It really went viral right after
• 9:11
  Fentech came. And so for the first time,
• 9:14
  women's voices were big and heard.
• 9:17
  That was a big shift. And then we go in, then we go
• 9:19
  into this dark period of COVID where everybody is focused on
• 9:24
  self protection and you know, they're themselves.
• 9:29
  Oh my God, I got to, I got to, I mean, hand washing was always a
• 9:31
  thing, but Oh my gosh, that was so, you know, top of mind.
• 9:35
  And and then we come out of that, like advocacy and health
• 9:39
  awareness to Dobbs, right? Roe V Wade in 2022, Like, Oh my
• 9:46
  gosh, these are really big shifts.
• 9:49
  You add in this generation that's all about themselves.
• 9:53
  And I think that's what's so exciting.
• 9:56
  We are in this massive cultural shift where it is not awkward
• 9:59
  for them. It is.
• 10:01
  They're open when I'm on campus with these kids because that is
• 10:04
  our first go to market is on college campuses.
• 10:07
  They are so eager. There is nothing taboo.
• 10:10
  They have questions. They want to know they're with
• 10:12
  their roommate, their boyfriend, they're, you know, just a
• 10:14
  classmate. They have no shame.
• 10:17
  They are open, they are excited, they're eager.
• 10:19
  And I love that. That's how it should be.
• 10:22
  I take a lot of my examples, you know, from them and try and
• 10:26
  apply it to my own life with my kids and their peers, right?
• 10:30
  Absolutely Well, that but that's the thing and you guys are
• 10:32
  versed in this, you know, this is the world that you are most
• 10:35
  comfortable in. Like you can have these
• 10:37
  conversations and then we see it from Gen.
• 10:40
  Z, they're talking about it and that's awesome for the future.
• 10:43
  And and Alex and I have talked about how like even I mean, I'm
• 10:46
  not going to bring them into it, but like even our kids are
• 10:48
  having these conversations as well.
• 10:50
  But for women who are maybe didn't grow up, you know, Lisa,
• 10:55
  you talked about your your sex education and honestly, that was
• 10:59
  like, that is like so far above what we got here in like rural
• 11:06
  outside of Ocean City, NJ. Like there's there was.
• 11:11
  I mean, it's a miracle that there are that we've
• 11:13
  repopulated. So how, Alex, when we talk about
• 11:18
  this kind of stuff, like how can women our age or of older
• 11:23
  generations who maybe didn't grow up with this, how can we
• 11:26
  explore curiosity without feeling like we have to become
• 11:31
  our daughters or without feeling like we have to be somebody that
• 11:35
  we're totally not? Like we're not going to just put
• 11:37
  on, you know, our our new persona in the bedroom.
• 11:41
  Maybe. How can we do it without feeling
• 11:44
  like we're still ourselves? I mean with feeling like we're
• 11:47
  still ourselves. Right, So I feel like there's a
• 11:51
  couple of things one needs to do, which is talking to your
• 11:55
  girlfriends about this, just getting practice using your
• 11:59
  voice in a very safe environment because if you're experiencing
• 12:02
  this, probably all of your friends are experiencing
• 12:05
  something similar. The other is opening lines of
• 12:08
  communication with your partner and sharing which you're really
• 12:11
  feeling. Because The funny thing in
• 12:13
  relationships is they tend to mirror your same emotions, a
• 12:17
  different version of it, and they really know you in the
• 12:20
  bedroom and they have the same goal.
• 12:23
  They want to have fun just as much as you do.
• 12:27
  I love that and I love that you say it because yes, it is
• 12:32
  supposed to be fun and it's and that well, you know what, I'm
• 12:36
  not even going to go there because I almost just went down
• 12:38
  like a whole rabbit hole of is it supposed to be fun
• 12:41
  culturally? Like there's a whole movement of
• 12:43
  people who would, I always think back, I hope none of my aunts or
• 12:48
  uncles mind that I'm just going to share this with you and then
• 12:50
  move on. But my grandparents are Irish
• 12:52
  Catholic and they had eight kids and apparently after the 5th
• 12:56
  kid, you know, my grandma had like her body had had enough and
• 12:59
  the doctors were like, you should not have any more
• 13:02
  children, you know. And so they went to their priest
• 13:05
  and they said, can we use birth control?
• 13:07
  And the priest said, no, you know, that you got to trust.
• 13:10
  And so thank goodness they did because now I have my Aunt
• 13:13
  Denise, my Aunt Kathy and Uncle Steve.
• 13:16
  But it's really not funny. I mean, it's funny to me in
• 13:19
  retrospect, but it's not really funny at all.
• 13:22
  And we're going to just keep this a fun topic.
• 13:25
  And yes, sex, it's supposed to be fun and it is supposed to be
• 13:27
  enjoyable. Let's talk a little bit about
• 13:30
  questions women tend to keep to themselves because, Alex, you
• 13:34
  even mentioned, you know, talking to your partner or
• 13:36
  talking to your friends. But sometimes there are
• 13:38
  questions that start with, is this normal?
• 13:41
  And people don't necessarily want to ask that of their
• 13:44
  friends, their partners, even themselves.
• 13:46
  Caitlin, you see a lot of physical stuff.
• 13:49
  What's a physical concern? You hear a lot about women that
• 13:53
  are often surprised to learn that it's really common, that
• 13:56
  women are surprised to learn it's actually really common.
• 14:00
  My gosh, I, I feel like almost everything that I see, see, I
• 14:05
  have this moment. The squeaking in the background
• 14:10
  are my animals. They make lots of noise and they
• 14:12
  hear none. If I'm on calls, OK, good.
• 14:16
  They like to wait until I'm on phone calls, of course.
• 14:20
  So I think because I deal, because clinically I deal with
• 14:24
  people who are coming in with problems, I'm going to see a lot
• 14:28
  of those things that people aren't willing to ask about
• 14:31
  their friends or ask their partner or talk to others about.
• 14:34
  So I'm a little biased, but ideal.
• 14:37
  I, I joke often that I talk about pee, poop and sex for a
• 14:40
  living, which I do as a pelvic health physical therapist.
• 14:44
  And there are concerns spanning all of those areas that I think
• 14:48
  women and anybody who's born with a vagina ends up being told
• 14:52
  is normal or assume is normal on the bladder side of things,
• 14:57
  especially for folks in midlife, people think that it's normal to
• 15:00
  pee their pants, to leak a little when they sneeze or
• 15:02
  cough, or they think it's a normal to be become more
• 15:06
  constipated with time or age. And I bring those up even though
• 15:10
  we're talking about sex because the bladder and the bowels are
• 15:13
  very close to the vagina and the other sexual organs, right?
• 15:17
  So those symptoms are not normal, even though we've
• 15:20
  normalized them. Often times someone who has one
• 15:23
  of those problems also has some sexual dysfunction.
• 15:26
  I think especially if we're thinking about folks in midlife,
• 15:31
  there's a myth that, well, you're just getting older, so
• 15:34
  sex isn't going to be as comfortable anymore.
• 15:36
  It's not going to be as fun. You're just going to have to do
• 15:39
  it for your partner. You're not going to enjoy it.
• 15:41
  And I think that that's a really harmful and dangerous myth on
• 15:46
  both the physical and the mental, emotional side.
• 15:50
  A lot of folks in midlife deal with vaginal dryness, for
• 15:52
  example, especially as their hormones start shifting.
• 15:55
  But we have lots of tools and options to help address that now
• 15:58
  so that people don't have to just grin and bear it if they're
• 16:01
  having discomfort or friction or pain or bleeding after sex.
• 16:06
  So I can't even touch on all of the things that women come into
• 16:10
  my office saying, oh, I just thought this was normal.
• 16:12
  I thought this was part of getting older or part of XYZ
• 16:15
  condition that I have. And I think the biggest take
• 16:18
  away that I tell a lot of people is common does not equal normal.
• 16:23
  Yes, it's common. A lot of your girlfriends might
• 16:25
  be having this too, and I don't want you to feel alone because
• 16:28
  you're having vaginal dryness, for example.
• 16:31
  However, that doesn't mean you have to accept it.
• 16:33
  There's stuff we can do to help. Hope that makes sense.
• 16:37
  Yeah, that totally makes sense. And actually, because I was,
• 16:40
  because I was looking at it as the lens of, you know, we're not
• 16:43
  alone in these thoughts and feelings, but also we may not be
• 16:47
  alone, but we're all suffering something we don't have to be
• 16:50
  suffering with. Yeah.
• 16:52
  Thank you for for pointing that out I think.
• 16:54
  It's a kind of a thing, Yeah. If I could jump in, I think what
• 16:58
  I, I see in these, you know, my world is split between these two
• 17:03
  generations. Is that the older generation,
• 17:08
  right. There's they think they're
• 17:09
  supposed to know. They just think that they're
• 17:12
  just supposed to know. And what, and the reality is for
• 17:17
  animals, sex is instinctual. It's natural.
• 17:21
  Like the, the, you know, the male, the, the female fox goes
• 17:26
  into heat and then the male fox senses it and then, you know,
• 17:29
  that's natural and instinctual and, and they know how to do it.
• 17:33
  It is not instinctual for humans.
• 17:36
  It is not a natural act. It is something that is learned.
• 17:40
  It is largely informed by society and culture and
• 17:43
  Physiology. And all of these things change
• 17:46
  over time. We are not supposed to know.
• 17:49
  This is something that we learn through our life experiences and
• 17:53
  growth and, and through society around us.
• 17:57
  And so when you take that, and I think that's the mindset that
• 18:00
  the Gen. ZS have.
• 18:01
  Oh, I don't know, I want to learn.
• 18:03
  I, I want to consume more info on this because I want to figure
• 18:07
  this out And I and I think I see that as a big barrier.
• 18:12
  We're just supposed to know, like who says?
• 18:18
  Yeah, Lisa, I that you're, when you mentioned that too, it made
• 18:21
  me think of the exact opposite situation too, because you're
• 18:24
  straddling these two different generational windows.
• 18:27
  And I see the same thing as well in younger people who come in
• 18:32
  And for example, pain, painless sex, especially penetrated sex
• 18:36
  is pretty common in young women under the age of 30, for
• 18:39
  example. But they come in, they don't
• 18:42
  have the problem necessarily of thinking they're supposed to
• 18:44
  know, but they have the problem of thinking I'm too young to
• 18:48
  have something wrong. Why am I broken?
• 18:50
  I'm only 25. So there's there.
• 18:53
  It happens on both sides, right? Younger and older, Alex.
• 18:57
  What do you what do you see in your practice regarding that
• 19:00
  that people are supposed to know?
• 19:04
  I think it comes in, I think. Everybody is right on this one
• 19:08
  that we are supposed to know. There's all this information on
• 19:11
  the Internet. I mean you could go to ChatGPT
• 19:13
  or some of the other sites and get a plethora of information.
• 19:17
  The problem is it doesn't really address always your particular
• 19:23
  situation. So it's like you have half the
• 19:24
  facts and then you make up all kinds of stories to go with it.
• 19:29
  And people really don't have the tools or the skills to have
• 19:32
  honest conversations, or they don't even know what the right
• 19:35
  questions are. And so if you're asking the
• 19:36
  wrong question, you're just in trouble.
• 19:40
  Do you see this like playing out in a certain way over and over
• 19:43
  again? Just out of curiosity?
• 19:44
  Like is there a more common scenario when you say people
• 19:47
  don't know the questions to ask or is it varied?
• 19:51
  You know, like it's all over the board.
• 19:52
  It's like, you know, you come back after pregnancy maybe where
• 19:56
  you were dealing with infertility issues and now
• 19:58
  you're trying to have sex and now it's painful and you feel
• 20:03
  like there's something broken and you have this vision that I
• 20:06
  should just be able to make it happen.
• 20:08
  Like everything's going well in my life.
• 20:10
  I've had the baby and. They're not realizing like they
• 20:15
  just went through a traumatic experience and they have to
• 20:18
  relearn their body. They have to go back to the
• 20:21
  basics and they have to ask the one O 1 questions all over
• 20:24
  again. It's like sex is a natural
• 20:27
  instinct. It's a drive.
• 20:29
  But at every different stage you need different skills to help
• 20:33
  you navigate. Cool.
• 20:36
  OK. And and Lisa, thinking about
• 20:38
  like systems and, and, and kind of where you are in that from
• 20:42
  your perspective, do you see where where it's something you
• 20:46
  see women quietly figuring out on their own that suggests the
• 20:50
  system isn't always meeting them?
• 20:57
  I think because sex today is like everywhere and maybe
• 21:03
  nowhere to for at least for the older generation there, it's
• 21:07
  more open. So there's a lot of comparing
• 21:09
  notes and I think there's a guardedness with a note with,
• 21:15
  you know, generations that didn't grow up like the Gen.
• 21:19
  ZS. And so they're only comparing
• 21:23
  certain notes, like they're sharing certain things and, and
• 21:27
  feeling shame about maybe fully being honest.
• 21:31
  And I don't see that with a Gen. ZI mean they're they're so open
• 21:36
  and not shaming themselves if they don't know or if they have,
• 21:42
  at least that's what I I'm seeing.
• 21:43
  And I'm not, you know, I'm not in the doctor's office like you
• 21:46
  are Caitlin or you know, I mean, I'm, I'm on campus.
• 21:50
  They're they're fully clothed and we're talking about this
• 21:52
  stuff. So I don't know if that's I get
• 21:54
  less or more, I'm not sure. But yeah, I don't know if I've
• 22:00
  answered the question. I, I think our whole goal is to
• 22:05
  help change this narrative that, you know, safe, protective sex
• 22:13
  doesn't have to sacrifice feeling.
• 22:16
  And so that's our overarching belief.
• 22:19
  I mean, that is why this company exists, right?
• 22:22
  To bring products that provide this safety and this protection
• 22:25
  that also give way to the fields, all the fields, because
• 22:28
  it should be fun, it should feel good.
• 22:30
  And so within that context, I think that opens up a lot of
• 22:36
  paradigm shifts that opens up people to say, Oh, yeah, well, I
• 22:41
  just kind of thought that and well, what else did I just kind
• 22:45
  of think that is not how it should be.
• 22:48
  You know, we get a lot of lot of a lot of questions about porn,
• 22:51
  right? Porn is obviously teaching a
• 22:53
  very explicit negatively prone to violence view.
• 23:00
  And, and I think we see Gen. Z saying, wait, you know, I'm
• 23:05
  not going to do that. Whereas other generations, well,
• 23:09
  maybe that's what it should be. Maybe I should do that.
• 23:12
  I don't want to do that, but maybe I should.
• 23:14
  And as we go through more education, I, I honestly think
• 23:17
  that the more the Gen. Z's are educated, that will
• 23:21
  inform the rest of the generations.
• 23:23
  We really spent a lot of our time there.
• 23:26
  You know, one of our advisors is Justin Garcia's at the Kinsey
• 23:29
  Institute and he has shared that with everything in life.
• 23:33
  The older generations inform the younger, with the exception of
• 23:36
  sex and dating, it's the opposite.
• 23:40
  So to the degree that we can really help educate these Gen.
• 23:44
  ZS and lean into what they're asking and how they're comparing
• 23:47
  notes and, and, and what images are are and questions they have
• 23:52
  and thoughts they have about this, that's going to filter up.
• 23:55
  That's what we believe anyway. I don't know if you guys have a
• 23:58
  different thought. What?
• 24:00
  Do you guys think about that? I have to say, I just having
• 24:04
  teenage kids and you know, one that's 21, that's 17.
• 24:07
  You there are certain things that filter up and I will also
• 24:11
  add to what Justin said and it's like technology is also
• 24:15
  filtering up like that's another one.
• 24:17
  But sometimes they go hand in hand because so much of what
• 24:20
  kids are hearing and exposed to is through technology and social
• 24:24
  media. And so like, you know, I mean, I
• 24:27
  remember years ago being in Philadelphia, Alex, and we saw,
• 24:31
  oh God, there's, there is a drug that unfortunately is just a
• 24:35
  terrible drug, but it has people bent over.
• 24:38
  And it was the first time I heard about this drug.
• 24:40
  And my daughter was there with her friend and they're like, Oh
• 24:43
  yeah, it's blah, blah, blah. You don't know about this.
• 24:45
  Like it's all over TikTok. And I was like, I had absolutely
• 24:49
  no idea. And I'm like, and how do you
• 24:51
  know about it? But there are certain things
• 24:53
  that are, are, are going upwards.
• 24:55
  And I do think that that's a, that's a pretty attic accurate
• 25:00
  assessment of it. And, and you don't hear, by the
• 25:05
  way, from let's let's go back to midlife for one second, because
• 25:10
  you know, one of the big differences and I don't think
• 25:13
  you hear this, but maybe, maybe, maybe they're privately telling
• 25:16
  each other and we don't know. But Gen.
• 25:18
  ZS, you don't hear them talk about the I don't want this
• 25:22
  anymore or I'm not in the mood. You know, they're they're at
• 25:25
  like a the beginning of their sexual lives.
• 25:28
  So they're not necessarily exhausted.
• 25:31
  They haven't necessarily gone through parent.
• 25:33
  Well, they haven't gone through perimenopause, but they've also
• 25:36
  not had the life experiences that kind of derail you or make
• 25:42
  you a little bit tired. I think in if you ever saw the
• 25:44
  movie, Oh my goodness, it's an old movie where Sheila Jackson
• 25:53
  basically is in the movie and he comes out of the woods.
• 25:55
  Field of Dreams and and some. Kevin Bacon.
• 25:57
  Yeah, thank you. And Kevin Bacon says I'm not
• 26:01
  like, I'm not even a glimpse in his eye yet.
• 26:03
  Life hasn't worn him down yet. Like, and it's true.
• 26:06
  I mean, as as sad as that sounds, life just does wear you
• 26:09
  down. We take on more
• 26:10
  responsibilities. So there's a lot of women that I
• 26:13
  hear, and I don't hear this from the younger generation.
• 26:16
  So I don't think we're going to get this passed up.
• 26:18
  Hopefully not, but they'll say I'm tired.
• 26:22
  I just don't want to do it. I don't have any interest in
• 26:25
  having sex. My libido is totally shot.
• 26:29
  From a body perspective, Caitlin, how often is not
• 26:32
  wanting to actually the body responding to discomfort or
• 26:37
  tension or pain? That's a really good question.
• 26:41
  And I'm, I'm excited to hear Alex's thoughts on this too,
• 26:44
  because I think the more we learn about the sexual response
• 26:47
  in all people, but especially in folks born with ovaries, the
• 26:51
  more we realize it's very complicated.
• 26:54
  And it is almost never just physical or just mental
• 26:57
  emotional. It's usually a lot of both,
• 27:00
  right. And this idea that we should
• 27:02
  have spontaneous desire to jump into bed with our partners is,
• 27:07
  is probably a false script that has been fed to us from like
• 27:12
  Lisa was talking about porn and social media and entertainment,
• 27:17
  etcetera. And that's a whole other can of
• 27:18
  worms. That said, keeping in mind that
• 27:22
  sex and desire are multifaceted and come from body and motions
• 27:27
  and brain and energy levels, oftentimes, especially for my my
• 27:32
  folks in midlife, there is a huge physical component that is,
• 27:36
  if not driving, at least contributing to that lack of
• 27:39
  desire. We know from a pain perspective,
• 27:42
  of course, that a lot of people do deal with what's called the
• 27:46
  genito urinary syndrome of menopause or GSM.
• 27:50
  They used to be called vulvovaginal atrophy.
• 27:52
  You may have heard that term or seen that term basically changes
• 27:56
  to the vagina. It gets drier as estrogen
• 27:58
  declines. The tissues get a little less
• 28:00
  elastic. They don't stretch as well.
• 28:03
  They don't respond as well. They might not get as much blood
• 28:06
  flow as they used to. So very physical components
• 28:09
  there also physical components in other parts of your body.
• 28:13
  What if you just had a knee replacement?
• 28:14
  What if your back, you have some back problems?
• 28:17
  Those things also affect sex too, right?
• 28:19
  Think about it, if the rest of your body doesn't feel good, how
• 28:22
  the heck are you to enjoy sex, right?
• 28:24
  And then there's also the the top down effect, we like to call
• 28:29
  it, of the changing hormones as well in midlife and how they
• 28:33
  impact energy and libido. For sure.
• 28:37
  As we enter the perimenopause window, testosterones and
• 28:41
  related to hormones start to decline too.
• 28:44
  And those are a big contributor to sex, interested sex as well.
• 28:48
  So long answer to say, yeah, it happens a lot.
• 28:51
  Physical components play in, neurochemical components like
• 28:56
  neurotransmitters and hormones play in.
• 28:58
  And then like you were talking about life, life gets in the way
• 29:01
  as well. So I encourage people that give
• 29:04
  themselves a little bit of grace and patience because you're
• 29:06
  going through a lot, my friend. It's it's a lot to deal.
• 29:09
  With you know what, it's funny because when I spoke with Alex
• 29:12
  on a previous episode, she leaned toward this.
• 29:14
  So I'm going to turn the floor over to her in a second.
• 29:17
  But I think it's really funny that you just called it
• 29:19
  interested sex because because there's like there's sex,
• 29:24
  there's also interested sex. Alex, what do you suggest?
• 29:28
  Because I know we, what do you suggest?
• 29:31
  But let me just start by saying everything that Caitlin just
• 29:34
  said IA 100% agree with, and I don't think I could have
• 29:37
  answered that any better than she did.
• 29:41
  I would just add that I've been very interested in the somatic
• 29:45
  experience of bodywork lately and this whole idea that people
• 29:50
  often go into flight fright or freeze reactions.
• 29:54
  And so when you want to engage in good sex, you really need to
• 29:59
  bring a level of safety into the room so that your whole body can
• 30:02
  relax and be at its best. And I'm actually not talking
• 30:06
  about always the 100% like the Hallmark kind of safety sex, but
• 30:11
  it's like you need to, your body needs to release enough so that
• 30:15
  you can be present in the experience.
• 30:19
  Because I do think good sex runs on energy, you know, excitement,
• 30:26
  positive, negative, all of that. So again, I always come back to
• 30:32
  communication is the biggest piece and your expectations.
• 30:37
  If you're expecting to have good sex, you're more likely to have
• 30:39
  good sex if you are having the skills meaning you are.
• 30:44
  You've maximized your diet, you're in good nutritional
• 30:47
  health, you're eating, you know, as women, you're eating enough
• 30:49
  protein, you're physically exercising, you're getting your
• 30:53
  blood flow naturally. Your body is going to work
• 30:57
  better and it's going to work with you a little bit more
• 31:00
  easily. Quick pause because if you're
• 31:03
  listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind
• 31:05
  of person I write for. I send out a sub stack
• 31:08
  newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories,
• 31:11
  behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly some of the things we
• 31:14
  don't always say out loud here. If you want to stay connected
• 31:16
  between episodes, you can find it at Roar with
• 31:19
  danielledavies.substack.com. I'd love to have you there.
• 31:24
  And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast.
• 31:28
  It's crazy to think about all these things that affect your
• 31:32
  mental state going into sex or even physically, like from a
• 31:35
  knee replacement to your diet. But one more component about the
• 31:39
  safety, Lisa, how do you feel about that, especially coming
• 31:43
  from somebody who created so Louie's aligner And sorry, I'm
• 31:49
  just jumping in and telling you to Louie's aligner.
• 31:52
  But it part of it, part of the whole premise is that women have
• 31:56
  autonomy and or that anyone who chooses to use the liner has
• 32:00
  autonomy. But that is also a part of
• 32:03
  feeling safe during sex. Right.
• 32:07
  Absolutely. Louis final liners, the first
• 32:09
  pleasure centered alternative to a condom that a woman could
• 32:12
  control. And I do think that's essential.
• 32:16
  That is number 1. You got to feel like you're
• 32:19
  going to be OK. How can we close this pleasure
• 32:21
  gap? And that is something that comes
• 32:24
  up with Gen. Z.
• 32:25
  They want to be able to have women as much as men.
• 32:30
  How can that be? How can they be set up for
• 32:33
  success when they're nervous and worried and he doesn't want to
• 32:37
  wear a condom And oh gosh, you know, that is not where we want
• 32:42
  to be. That's not where we need to be.
• 32:43
  So we're, we've designed this product for how it ought to be,
• 32:49
  right? I don't know if we're lying on
• 32:50
  a, a guy to use something that doesn't feel good and was
• 32:54
  constricting and desensitizing was ever a good strategy, you
• 32:58
  know, But hey, that's like all we have right now, really.
• 33:01
  So, but I, I would argue that Gen.
• 33:03
  CS, you know, they have they have a lot on in their plate.
• 33:08
  They are juggling way more than any Gen.
• 33:10
  X did. I mean, you know, when I was in
• 33:13
  high school and college, nobody remembered anything I said or
• 33:18
  did right? You know, these kids every I, I
• 33:22
  was so little informed about politics.
• 33:28
  It just didn't seem to impact me in any where the world.
• 33:32
  Yes, geopolitical tectonic shifts.
• 33:35
  I had no, no, I mean so or very little anyway.
• 33:40
  And I think they juggle a lot and everything single thing is
• 33:45
  captured forever. And so in some ways I think it's
• 33:51
  harder for them. And if, and if it's harder for
• 33:54
  them to, to carry all of this and to navigate all this.
• 33:58
  And, and yet they're still able to say, huh, wait, you know, I
• 34:03
  think I feel good doing this. And I, I want to learn about
• 34:06
  this. I, I just applaud them so, so
• 34:09
  much for that. And, and, and that is 1 of what
• 34:13
  an aspect that really completely drives me.
• 34:16
  I want to be able to provide this solution to these kids to
• 34:20
  have one last thing to worry about.
• 34:23
  You know, another thing, we're latex free.
• 34:25
  Another thing that we're noticing is MCAS Multi Cell
• 34:28
  Activation Syndrome is so off the charts today that
• 34:32
  essentially is just. I don't know if it's a but is.
• 34:36
  That. I'm sort of a response that
• 34:37
  causes so many allergies. It's increasing allergies.
• 34:40
  Thank you. And so these kids are, they have
• 34:44
  more allergies than any other generation.
• 34:47
  Obviously what's near and dear is that latex allergy.
• 34:50
  So we've watched that a lot and that we've got a market of a
• 34:54
  category of products that is latex only largely.
• 34:57
  And we've got this group that is supposed to be using them and
• 35:01
  they're allergic to them or maybe not anaphylactic shock
• 35:04
  allergic, but irritation is a result of using them because of
• 35:08
  this M cast that's increased. So, I mean, we all have our
• 35:13
  generational things that we're carrying, but I, I think that
• 35:17
  the Gen. Z is, is carrying a lot too.
• 35:20
  And so. You know, you're you're totally
• 35:23
  right and it, it's such a such a mom, mom fail of mine to not
• 35:30
  acknowledge that. And sometimes my son will be
• 35:32
  like, I am doing more than you have ever.
• 35:35
  And I'm like, back off there, buddy.
• 35:36
  I pushed you out. I'm like, I have done hard
• 35:41
  things. But you're absolutely right.
• 35:42
  And it's sometimes I think we need to kind of step back and
• 35:46
  think about that. And then, but I do see, and I'm
• 35:49
  sorry, this isn't anything that I said we were going to talk
• 35:51
  about. So I bet you guys are.
• 35:55
  One of the things I've noticed is like in the Gen.
• 35:58
  Z world is that there's so much more confident knowing or
• 36:06
  expressing themselves as who they are sexually, who their
• 36:11
  identity is sexually. So, you know, obviously back in
• 36:15
  my day or you know, I didn't even know until recently that
• 36:18
  the Stonewall riots happened really in I think the late 60s,
• 36:22
  fifties or 60s. But it's it's just within a
• 36:26
  stones throw of my birth. So you know when my mom and I
• 36:31
  talk about my godfather, who was a gay man and how he was engaged
• 36:34
  to a woman three times in his life because he tried so hard
• 36:39
  to. Right.
• 36:42
  Yes, and kind of exactly. And and how much of A struggle
• 36:46
  that was versus and my mom's like, oh, you know, like who's
• 36:49
  very much an advocate, but also 76 years old is saying, oh, you
• 36:54
  know, now you see gay couples, they're out and they're holding
• 36:57
  hands, they're all over the place.
• 36:58
  She's like, and your Uncle Bill, he never did that.
• 37:00
  I'm like, well, he could have been arrested, you know, and now
• 37:04
  you see something different. So I feel like kids now are so
• 37:09
  much so. But that's just one.
• 37:12
  Open for sure. Like I remember one time my son
• 37:15
  and I were watching a football game and he said what's in the
• 37:19
  closet? Because there was a football
• 37:23
  player that had come out of the closet or he was in the closet
• 37:26
  and then he came out open. You know, he's gay and they
• 37:30
  didn't even know, right? And, and, you know, we have
• 37:34
  family that's gay too. And my sons.
• 37:37
  And I said, well, that's because he couldn't share what, you
• 37:39
  know, who he was. And he said, oh, did that happen
• 37:43
  to our family too? You know, my gay all right, gay
• 37:46
  uncles. And I said, yeah, they had
• 37:49
  destroyed. He just couldn't believe that,
• 37:51
  right? Oh my gosh, How could someone
• 37:53
  just not be who they are and just be open with it?
• 37:57
  And so, yeah, I understand what you're saying and.
• 37:59
  Now, like there are so many more expressions of sexuality, you
• 38:04
  know, there's, there's and transsexuality, asexuality,
• 38:09
  bisexuality. I mean, I do feel like the
• 38:13
  younger generation is much more adoptable and much more open
• 38:19
  about that. And Alex, yes, I can see your
• 38:21
  hand. What were you going to say?
• 38:23
  I think people are very knowledgeable and they have so
• 38:27
  much more information, but I actually think people's
• 38:29
  emotional skills are much more limited today than it was partly
• 38:33
  because we had COVID with the entire world shutting down,
• 38:37
  where people simply interacted with others less frequently.
• 38:40
  And if you think people are turning to the Internet to
• 38:43
  interact, it allows you to disconnect and have a little bit
• 38:48
  less empathy for the other person.
• 38:51
  So in some ways people are much more alone, even though they're
• 38:56
  showing up, and I think that's having a profound impact on
• 39:00
  sexual expression. I want to double down on that
• 39:04
  too, because I was just thinking that when Lisa was talking as
• 39:07
  well, that we have this weird dichotomy where Gen.
• 39:11
  Z is, for example, is more knowledgeable, as Alex was
• 39:15
  saying. But there's also this comparison
• 39:18
  component. I think that can kind of bite
• 39:20
  them in the butt. There's that expression that
• 39:22
  comparison is the thief of joy. And more than ever, I think the
• 39:27
  younger and younger generations are growing up on the Internet.
• 39:30
  They're growing up on social media and they're constantly
• 39:32
  comparing each other themselves to one another and thinking, oh,
• 39:36
  this is what my sex life should look like because that's who
• 39:39
  that's what my friends are doing or that's what my friends are
• 39:42
  performing is even more important is their life.
• 39:45
  The the lives of younger generations now are more and
• 39:48
  more performative. And to Alex's point, how much of
• 39:52
  that is real and how much of that is what they have learned
• 39:55
  to do to cope and compare themselves to others.
• 39:58
  So keeping that in mind. Yeah, that's a good point.
• 40:01
  I, I see Gen. Z the kind of the, the age,
• 40:06
  maybe late, just getting out of college, where these kids are
• 40:11
  putting self-imposed social media limits on their phones for
• 40:16
  themselves. Yeah.
• 40:17
  And so they understand this is not healthy for me.
• 40:21
  And I think that that I think we're going to see more of that
• 40:24
  right in my cohorts with some of these other start up founders.
• 40:28
  There's a lot of technology that that a parent can, you know, buy
• 40:33
  a subscription for to put on their kids phone to help them
• 40:37
  have a, a more healthy relationship with social media,
• 40:41
  with their screen. And I think that's only a good
• 40:44
  thing for these kids at 23202223 years old to say, oh, I can't be
• 40:50
  on social today, I'm not going to do it.
• 40:52
  To really recognize that. I think, you know, it's kind of
• 40:59
  like, do you guys remember when the kids were all vaping?
• 41:03
  And now these kids in Europe, they're vaping, but they're not
• 41:07
  vaping as much here. Yeah.
• 41:10
  So it, it kind of was this phase that they went through, a
• 41:14
  generation went through. And then they came out the other
• 41:16
  side and said, like, I don't want to do this.
• 41:20
  I, I hope and I, I feel like that's what's happening with
• 41:23
  social media to be able to lessen, as you, as you were
• 41:26
  saying, Alex, that comparative, the impact of, of, of comparing
• 41:34
  and, and the impact on their mental state during that.
• 41:38
  Yeah. Well, and it, it brings me back
• 41:40
  to, to, you know, it, it's funny, you guys all have a
• 41:43
  different perspective. You all come, well, you all have
• 41:45
  a different level of expertise or a different area of
• 41:47
  expertise. But it no matter how many times
• 41:50
  we talk about the physical aspect or the physical barriers
• 41:54
  of physical protection, it really seems to keep coming back
• 41:58
  to connection. Like it's connection that's
• 42:01
  going to get you good sex. It's connection that's going to
• 42:04
  kind of keep our friendships going.
• 42:06
  It all really seems to come back to this.
• 42:10
  And and one of the things you guys brought up earlier,
• 42:13
  Caitlin, I think you mentioned it, that it's not like porn, you
• 42:17
  know, it's not like you're like, oh, honey, you're home.
• 42:20
  You know, I've got the Julia Roberts like tie on.
• 42:23
  My husband would die. Because.
• 42:25
  That's how far enough of a concept that is.
• 42:29
  But really, Alex, you talked to me about this in our other
• 42:33
  podcast episode before about the idea of practicing connection
• 42:39
  and actually, you know, where it doesn't necessarily have to be
• 42:43
  on a calendar where you've discussed it, but you're but it
• 42:48
  does have to be in somebody's head.
• 42:49
  Like, OK, we're going to do this at this time or we're going to.
• 42:52
  Can you talk a little bit about that and how that kind of helps
• 42:55
  not just the physical aspect, but keep the connection going?
• 42:59
  So I think what you're referencing is this idea that I
• 43:04
  tell my couples, one person should internally know that
• 43:09
  they're going to have sex and put it into their calendar so
• 43:11
  that they've mapped the entire day.
• 43:13
  Like, you know, the dishes are done, they've got no work to do.
• 43:16
  They don't tell their partner this, of course.
• 43:19
  So their partner just experiences them as being very
• 43:23
  attentive and very connected. And maybe it will lead to sex.
• 43:27
  Maybe it'll just lead to, you know, helping them your partner
• 43:32
  with their taxes or doing some random tasks that they're asking
• 43:35
  of you. And if you're both doing this,
• 43:38
  it means that it's going to always feel spontaneous and
• 43:43
  you're going to feel like the other person's really committed
• 43:45
  to you and invested and picking up on your mood and your energy.
• 43:51
  I like that idea because I feel like it's something like a very
• 43:54
  practical thing we can do to kind of just get the most out of
• 43:59
  our own lives, you know? And and I'm curious, Lisa, how
• 44:03
  you feel about that same thing in terms of, I mean, obviously
• 44:06
  you've got something that enables protected sex.
• 44:12
  Yeah, it can be. Yeah.
• 44:14
  But well, I, I mean, the education around it is what
• 44:17
  we're working on right now, right?
• 44:18
  The curriculum that is around bringing this to market later
• 44:24
  this year is being, is we're developing that right now.
• 44:27
  And it's really exciting because just what you're saying, this
• 44:31
  connection, educating them on this connection and the ability
• 44:35
  to be vulnerable and how that can help them, you know, in
• 44:40
  addition to this new line of products, make more decisions
• 44:44
  and enjoy and honour versus guilt and regret and shame.
• 44:48
  And what we're seeing is a lot of these campuses are bringing
• 44:51
  third parties, you know, sex educators on on to, to their
• 44:55
  programming for, you know, freshman year, first semester,
• 44:58
  second semester, They're constantly doing this.
• 44:59
  They're, they're outsourcing that and they're hiring these
• 45:01
  third parties. We've, we know a lot of these
• 45:03
  third parties and we're working with them with this curriculum.
• 45:06
  And one of the things that we've shifted is there's a, a niche of
• 45:09
  this curriculum that is very fun, funny base, it's humor
• 45:14
  base. It's, it's these people are sex
• 45:17
  educators and comedians, right? And we love that because where
• 45:23
  can you be vulnerable and connected when you're laughing,
• 45:28
  when you feel good, when it's joyous, right?
• 45:32
  Not this guilt and shame. And this is going to happen to
• 45:35
  you if you, right? And so that's what's so
• 45:38
  important to us, bringing more of that joy to this education
• 45:43
  component so that they can be in that space of really receiving
• 45:49
  and the information and then associating it with connection
• 45:55
  and vulnerability and laughter that I think is so important.
• 46:00
  We've all just come out. I mean, I know COVID was, we
• 46:03
  can't just always blame COVID, but damn it, it is a big reason
• 46:07
  for a lot of shit, right? And totally.
• 46:10
  And so that was really hard, dark, sad, closed off.
• 46:16
  And, and I think we're seeing the what's the Gen. alpha kids?
• 46:21
  A lot of my friends are educators and these Gen. alpha
• 46:23
  kids, they are just really happy kids.
• 46:27
  And so bringing more of that to Gen.
• 46:29
  Z and then Gen. X.
• 46:30
  And so, you know, I think it's what we also we have to do.
• 46:33
  I mean, the path is through laughter, right?
• 46:37
  I love this. I love that like the whole
• 46:40
  physical component of sex has come secondary to the connection
• 46:44
  and the laughter and the joy and even like for women in for the
• 46:49
  women and anybody men, but we, since our listeners are women.
• 46:53
  But for people who are saying things like I don't want to, I I
• 46:57
  don't feel like it. I'm tired.
• 46:58
  What are ways you can bring joy back?
• 47:00
  Because a lot of it isn't that they don't want to, is that they
• 47:04
  didn't give themselves kind of the, the freedom and flexibility
• 47:09
  to be like, Hey, you know what, it's important that I have fun.
• 47:12
  Fun is important. Like I always call my husband
• 47:14
  the fun captain because if we didn't have him, I'd never go
• 47:17
  out on the boat. I'd never do anything fun.
• 47:20
  And I'm like, I have things to do.
• 47:21
  He's like, fun is important. And I, I think that I think a
• 47:25
  lot of times as moms, you know, you put the kids first or as
• 47:29
  caregivers. So how do we come back and make
• 47:33
  that fun? Yeah, that's so true.
• 47:36
  Women are especially are wired to be selfless, right?
• 47:42
  We're wired to put others first. That's that's that's a hard
• 47:47
  thing to overcome. Yeah, Alex, you were going to
• 47:51
  say something too. Yeah, I love to really think
• 47:53
  about this as not just sex but exercise.
• 47:59
  So it's this whole concept of not wanting to go to the gym,
• 48:03
  but knowing if you go to the gym you'll feel better.
• 48:05
  Not wanting to have sex, but knowing if you have sex, you'll
• 48:08
  feel better. These are all physical
• 48:10
  activities. And the more physically you get,
• 48:12
  the more embodied you get, the more connected you get with your
• 48:15
  own emotions, your own feelings, the more alive you feel.
• 48:19
  And that's the whole point of life in my mind, is to be
• 48:23
  connected with yourself and to have the best health possible.
• 48:26
  And you've got to just get pushed sometimes to get out
• 48:30
  there and do it. Yeah, I think too.
• 48:35
  Oh, sorry. I I, I that's actually a really
• 48:37
  interesting point that Alex made.
• 48:39
  A speaking as someone who works, whose profession is very
• 48:42
  centered on exercise, it's not something I think I've ever
• 48:45
  thought of before of like treating sex as a exercise or,
• 48:49
  or something to do. The other comment I was thinking
• 48:53
  when you asked that Danielle was, I mentioned that the term
• 48:56
  responsive desire earlier. And that was a term that I first
• 48:59
  learned when I was reading Emily Nagowski's book Come As You Are,
• 49:04
  which I cannot recommend enough, especially to anybody with a
• 49:08
  vagina like she. She speaks to all genders, but
• 49:11
  she is definitely centered on on folks with female anatomy and
• 49:18
  understanding that desire and sex are a lot broader than we
• 49:23
  think they are. And it's very easy, especially
• 49:27
  culturally to think that P&V is the only thing penetration is
• 49:31
  that is that is sex check you've done your sex right?
• 49:34
  Like it's a lot more timers than that.
• 49:38
  It has been crossed off the list.
• 49:40
  Yeah, exactly. I'm like that.
• 49:42
  I know for myself is when when Alex mentioned sex is exercise,
• 49:46
  I'm like, oh, for someone like me, I could see that becoming A
• 49:48
  to do list item like that. That's how I am built.
• 49:51
  Not everybody is, but it could be So remind reminding ourselves
• 49:56
  that sex is a really broad category.
• 49:58
  And sometimes cuddling is your form of sex and that's OK.
• 50:03
  And sometimes just touching or kissing or making out like
• 50:07
  teenagers in the back of a car, like it doesn't have to be that
• 50:10
  look like a certain thing in order to be pleasurable and in
• 50:13
  order to be joyful. So keeping that in mind and
• 50:16
  highly recommend. I'm Elena Gowski's book for
• 50:19
  anybody that's that's dealing with challenges in this area.
• 50:21
  It's blew my mind. OK, real quick, if you're
• 50:25
  listening and thinking more women should be hearing
• 50:28
  conversations like this, the best way to support the show is
• 50:31
  just to follow or subscribe wherever you are.
• 50:33
  It really does help it reach more people.
• 50:35
  Thanks so much. OK, back to the show.
• 50:38
  I'm laughing because Alex, you're like, make it like going
• 50:41
  to the gym and how I have to be like, OK, I'm going to go to the
• 50:45
  gym. All I have to do, all I have to
• 50:48
  do is 10 minutes on the treadmill because I basically
• 50:50
  will talk myself into the next step.
• 50:52
  But I'm like, if I can just get in the door.
• 50:54
  If I just get in the door, I have crossed some humongous
• 50:58
  hurdles. So, but how do we how do we make
• 51:00
  that? How do we do that for sex
• 51:02
  without making it like a check off on your To Do List?
• 51:06
  Because I am totally looking at my To Do List already.
• 51:10
  And a lot of times I'm like up. Well, I think you need to be
• 51:14
  focused on the benefit, right? The, I mean, pleasure is vital.
• 51:20
  This is a vital sign. This decreases cortisol.
• 51:24
  I, I'm sure Alex and Caitlin know way more about the clinical
• 51:27
  side of what the impact is of, of sex.
• 51:30
  But knowing that this is going to help you be a better you,
• 51:35
  it's going to bring the better, the best version of you out
• 51:39
  that's possible, right? I think that knowing that,
• 51:44
  believing that is essential. I like that.
• 51:49
  I like the idea of making it a better you because I mean,
• 51:52
  another thing, by the way, I don't know how many of you on
• 51:56
  this call are going through this, but I'm in, I've talked to
• 51:59
  this season. I've talked to several people
• 52:01
  who are working with like midlife in terms of kind of
• 52:06
  reclaiming your own sense of self or saying no as a hard stop
• 52:13
  sentence. Like.
• 52:14
  And I keep using the same example that my husband asked me
• 52:16
  to do something on New Year's Day two years ago.
• 52:19
  And normally I would have kind of buffered it.
• 52:23
  I would have been like, I don't really feel like it.
• 52:26
  Why don't you go? I'll make some dinner.
• 52:28
  Or I would have said, oh, you know, I feel a little tired.
• 52:30
  Whatever I would have said. And this time I was just like,
• 52:33
  no, like it was just, I was like, I just don't want to do it
• 52:37
  and I'm not going to do it. And so you're, I'm getting a
• 52:40
  little more selfish about what feels good, what doesn't feel
• 52:43
  good. So I feel like we can, the way
• 52:46
  you said it, Lisa, too, in terms of reclaiming it because it's
• 52:51
  good for us. Like I it.
• 52:54
  Yeah. Practicing, that is.
• 52:55
  She died. Yeah, well, and I tell the Gen.
• 52:58
  Z's like pleasure is vital. Self pleasure is vital too.
• 53:04
  Like we're, we're seeing this completely hockey stick of
• 53:08
  vibrators. You mentioned it in the
• 53:09
  beginning, Danielle, right when, you know, when we were younger
• 53:14
  CV, you couldn't go to CVS and see six different vibrators.
• 53:18
  Definitely. I mean, you know, it used to be
• 53:21
  not that long ago, less than 2% of women owned a vibrator, a
• 53:24
  tool or a toy. And today it's well over 70%.
• 53:30
  So that understanding of hey, this is vital.
• 53:34
  These kids. I mean, I don't know the first a
• 53:37
  lot of the stats are are difficult to get, but they're
• 53:40
  not really good. It like becoming clitorate from
• 53:42
  Lori, doctor Lori Mince, she's awesome.
• 53:44
  She wrote that book and the first time a a Gen.
• 53:48
  X had an orgasm on average was like 31.
• 53:55
  We're helping Gen. ZS.
• 53:57
  No, you need to be able to have an orgasm, you know, much sooner
• 54:01
  than that, right? And I think they are now all of
• 54:05
  this data really relies heavily on self reporting and sometimes
• 54:09
  that's very skewed and that's not what is really happening.
• 54:13
  One of the, the stats that we see often that conflicts with
• 54:17
  the with other data is that the Gen.
• 54:20
  ZS having less sex. Well, like to your point,
• 54:23
  Caitlin, sex is, you know, penile vaginal insertion, OK,
• 54:26
  maybe there's less of that. But now there's more oral and
• 54:30
  we're seeing an exacerbation in the STI rates that oral, you
• 54:34
  know, that women are receiving and getting more St. is.
• 54:37
  So we know there's more happening and the universities
• 54:40
  are saying we're not seeing a slow down in St. is that so
• 54:43
  whatsoever. So they're obviously doing
• 54:46
  something that's different from what they're, you know,
• 54:49
  answering on these these surveys as sex, right?
• 54:54
  Because still it's that mindset of, you know, penile vaginal
• 54:57
  insertion. So yeah.
• 55:01
  I think too, it's interesting thinking about these
• 55:03
  generational differences as well of Danielle, I love when you
• 55:07
  said that you're, it's been, you're working hard to say no
• 55:11
  more. And but it was interesting to
• 55:12
  hear you use the word selfish around what's good for you.
• 55:15
  And that's so built into us, I think, especially as women in
• 55:19
  heterosexual relationships. Like no matter how you know, I
• 55:24
  walk around wearing little vulvas in my ears.
• 55:26
  I'm extremely liberal and open. But I'm in a heterosexual
• 55:29
  relationship and I find myself and my partner is very open and
• 55:33
  very not at all falling in gender roles, but I even find
• 55:38
  myself falling into these roles. Like this is what the woman
• 55:41
  does. This is what the man does.
• 55:42
  And this idea that we conceive of self-care as selfish is
• 55:46
  fascinating. Not calling you out on it, just
• 55:49
  noting it myself. And I think one thing I've
• 55:52
  noticed as well, I'm a millennial, so I'm 37.
• 55:55
  So I'm in kind of in this weird bridge gap or bridge between
• 55:58
  Gen. X and Gen.
• 55:59
  Z. And I find that there's certain
• 56:03
  things, yes, that compared to when in my 20s, I'm a lot bolder
• 56:07
  about saying this is what I need and this is what I don't.
• 56:09
  And I think that is really, really challenging to.
• 56:12
  Teach. To a young person, I'm sure
• 56:15
  Lisa, you encounter that and some of it can't be taught.
• 56:18
  I think some of it is experience as well, but one of the
• 56:21
  blessings maybe of getting older as as a woman, is a little bit
• 56:25
  more confidence in ourselves and our ability to say no and talk
• 56:28
  about what we need and what works for us because of
• 56:30
  experience. Yeah, I think my daughter
• 56:34
  nannied over the summer last year, and it was fascinating to
• 56:39
  hear the stories from the park every day.
• 56:41
  They were at the park with the kids, right, You know?
• 56:43
  And so she made a posse of friends that we're all doing the
• 56:45
  same thing and some were men. And so, you know, Jen asked Jen
• 56:52
  why maybe we would have thought, oh wow, he's a stay at home dad.
• 56:57
  Oh yeah, that kind of thing. But her peers, it was just, oh,
• 57:03
  Joe's going to be there too. Like it was the dads and moms
• 57:07
  and the nannies and it was all just one big melting pot and
• 57:11
  nobody ostracized, nobody criticized.
• 57:15
  It wasn't anything different. It was so nice from her lens to
• 57:18
  to hear this, that the the this roles, you know, putting people
• 57:24
  in a role was not a thing. It wasn't he wasn't labeled.
• 57:30
  Oh, or they these they were more than definitely more than one
• 57:33
  stay at home dad. It wasn't like that.
• 57:36
  It was just gel. Yeah, it was so great.
• 57:41
  I thought that was so different from, you know, how I maybe
• 57:45
  would have thought it was or what it was when I was younger.
• 57:48
  Well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the
• 57:50
  future because regarding that selfish thing, Caitlin, it's
• 57:54
  funny, you know, you mentioned it and and you're right.
• 57:57
  And even my husband was like, well, you sound like you're
• 58:00
  being kind of selfish. And I actually was like, and I
• 58:02
  am I I am because I kind of was being a little bit of an ass
• 58:06
  about it. But that's neither here nor
• 58:09
  there. The the the bigger part for me,
• 58:13
  not so much in the gender roles. And This is why it'll be
• 58:16
  interesting to see how the future hands out is a lot of the
• 58:21
  the the self-imposed selfishness or vindicating something because
• 58:26
  I think it's selfish is came from caregiving.
• 58:29
  So I think I maybe started off in an equal in a place where I
• 58:33
  was like, you know, sometimes I gave, sometimes I got and I was
• 58:36
  willing to compromise and I was, you know, I was just a regular
• 58:40
  person and I could decide what I wanted to do.
• 58:43
  And sometimes I would do something that I thought I would
• 58:46
  compromise. Now then I went through 20 years
• 58:50
  where basically I helped facilitate the life of these
• 58:56
  people. And it, you know, I recently
• 58:59
  wrote that I, I'm like, oh, you know, you want to, you want to
• 59:02
  create people who can go do their own thing.
• 59:04
  And yet my 20 year old was home from college this Christmas and
• 59:08
  was like, hey, mom, can you copy an apple?
• 59:11
  And there I was cutting it. And I know I, I think I sent
• 59:16
  that to Alex. Alex, I think I texted you that
• 59:18
  over the holidays because it's like, it's so hard to pull back
• 59:24
  after being that person. I think the biggest shock is
• 59:27
  actually to them, my kids, when I'm like, I will not cut you.
• 59:31
  I will. I just won't do it.
• 59:33
  Sometimes I'm like. I'm in the kitchen.
• 59:35
  I mean, the knife is right here. It's so easy to put to put
• 59:39
  myself out, but it becomes your identity.
• 59:45
  And I think that sometimes when you think about sex as pleasure,
• 59:49
  any kind of pleasure becomes less a part of who you are when
• 59:54
  all you're doing is giving to other people.
• 59:58
  And Alex, how much of that do you see as one of the things
• 1:00:02
  people commit like? How often are women actually
• 1:00:06
  walking around? I know there are women who do
• 1:00:08
  this, and I am not trying to make it just be a gender thing,
• 1:00:12
  but I feel like when you're in the caregiving role and Lacey,
• 1:00:15
  you're talking about, you know, seeing all these men doing this,
• 1:00:17
  and that is awesome. But when you're in that role and
• 1:00:21
  it becomes so habitual and you are the one who is making the
• 1:00:25
  doctor's appointments and literally physically caring for
• 1:00:29
  the people around you, you do, out of necessity have to stop
• 1:00:34
  caring a little bit about yourself.
• 1:00:35
  I mean, you're you are you are possibly going to get the
• 1:00:40
  stomach bug if you're crawling around cleaning up someone
• 1:00:42
  else's sickness like it's. I think you are modeling
• 1:00:46
  self-care. You're model, you're going to
• 1:00:48
  the gym, you're healthy eating, you love your job.
• 1:00:51
  You're modeling that so that as they move on and out of the
• 1:00:55
  nest, at least in my opinion, they see that without this very
• 1:01:01
  severe gender role lens. Totally.
• 1:01:05
  And so, oh, mom, mom made the, the doctor's appointments just
• 1:01:10
  because somebody had to make the doctor's appointments.
• 1:01:12
  Like I'm a single mom. So it's a little bit different
• 1:01:14
  for me. Like if I don't do it and
• 1:01:16
  nobody's doing it right. But the, I think that you,
• 1:01:22
  you're modeling that you love your job and, and, and you love
• 1:01:26
  helping. And I hope that then I believe
• 1:01:29
  that they see that and do that for themselves when they're out
• 1:01:31
  of the house. I want to eat healthy.
• 1:01:33
  So I'm going to go cut my own apple right as totally to that.
• 1:01:37
  Like, well, mom was the mom, so mom had to do it.
• 1:01:40
  I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go find a wife that
• 1:01:43
  could do that. Like, you know, I don't think
• 1:01:45
  that's no. Yeah, and I but I feel like, you
• 1:01:49
  know, in the whole spectrum of things, when you're caring for
• 1:01:52
  somebody else, you know, you've got all those things and you
• 1:01:54
  want to model all these things with a very it's like what's the
• 1:01:57
  first thing to go? And the first thing to go, the
• 1:02:00
  easiest thing to drop is your own pleasure because so how do
• 1:02:05
  you re prioritize that? Like how do you say, OK, I'm
• 1:02:09
  back? Well, I'm glad that you asked it
• 1:02:12
  that way because what I really think is important is every five
• 1:02:16
  years you need to completely recreate yourself because you're
• 1:02:19
  in a completely new stage of life.
• 1:02:21
  So you know, the needs of your children are very different from
• 1:02:25
  zero to five than they are from 5 to 10, from 10 to 15,
• 1:02:29
  etcetera. And so if you're always having
• 1:02:31
  these, I must call it like you're ACEO of your own life and
• 1:02:34
  you're having these like major business meetings with yourself
• 1:02:37
  and you re update your life goals, your plans, What's
• 1:02:41
  realistic at this different juncture, You're able able to
• 1:02:44
  shift the emotional labor that you're doing and where you're
• 1:02:47
  prioritizing your energy because we really do get into these
• 1:02:52
  habits that we started when the kids were first born.
• 1:02:57
  And what's great is once you have had your own meeting with
• 1:03:00
  yourself, you can then have like a Co meeting with your partner
• 1:03:04
  and update his or her plans with yours and then really look at it
• 1:03:09
  together as to, you know, should I still be doing all this
• 1:03:12
  emotional labor? You know, maybe I've gone back
• 1:03:14
  to into the workforce and now I need you to take over some of
• 1:03:17
  this stuff. And again, it all comes down to
• 1:03:21
  communication and realizing we've got to continually change
• 1:03:26
  with life. I love that that's such a growth
• 1:03:30
  mindset. I agree.
• 1:03:33
  I'd love to just hop into and, and mention as well like that
• 1:03:37
  obviously the caregiving role and especially for mothers it,
• 1:03:41
  it is huge. And I cannot overstate how much
• 1:03:44
  that impacts my patients. And I'm sure yours, Alex's and
• 1:03:49
  Alex and, and so many women out there.
• 1:03:52
  And then there's also this category of folks like me that
• 1:03:55
  are child free by choice. And I think recognizing that
• 1:03:59
  society, I think is it's becoming more accepted, but
• 1:04:02
  society often sees especially women who are child free by
• 1:04:05
  choice as selfish. And it's it's very common.
• 1:04:10
  I think it's again changing, but noting that it's rarely a
• 1:04:14
  selfish decision. There's a lot of things that go
• 1:04:17
  into that decision for many people, regardless of why
• 1:04:21
  someone is child free. Acknowledging that even if
• 1:04:24
  you're a child free person, you may still carry some of these
• 1:04:27
  ingrained societal expectations. I know I certainly do.
• 1:04:32
  And I feel like, well, if I don't empty the dishwasher, is
• 1:04:34
  it good to get emptied? That's what my mom did.
• 1:04:36
  My mom is a stay at home mom. She did all these things.
• 1:04:39
  So therefore, I should do all these things even though I have
• 1:04:42
  a more than full time job and my partner does as well and he's a
• 1:04:45
  grown man and take care of himself.
• 1:04:47
  So even if we're not in a traditional caregiving role,
• 1:04:51
  it's very difficult for us to change the messages that we've
• 1:04:55
  been taught from childhood, which is if you have ovaries,
• 1:04:58
  these are your jobs. So continuing to sort of, I
• 1:05:02
  think Gen. Z is doing a good job of
• 1:05:03
  breaking down a lot of those barriers like you were talking
• 1:05:05
  about, Lisa, but acknowledging that in ourselves of regardless
• 1:05:09
  of what kind of role we're in, we still might be carrying some
• 1:05:11
  of that baggage. And maybe just in the DNA.
• 1:05:17
  Totally. And how we're raised, right?
• 1:05:19
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  discount at checkout. I, I just want to tell you guys,
• 1:06:01
  I'm sorry. This is like an aside and has
• 1:06:03
  not, well, it does. It has everything to do with
• 1:06:04
  what we're talking about. But last night my husband, I was
• 1:06:08
  working on something all day. I was working on the taxes,
• 1:06:10
  which I absolutely hate. And it's like the pain of my
• 1:06:13
  existence. And I was like, this is and
• 1:06:14
  every time he tried to talk and I was like, like, I cannot break
• 1:06:18
  concentration because I'll be totally lost.
• 1:06:20
  And he was cleaning the microwave.
• 1:06:23
  I see, so I love. Her So we're in the same room,
• 1:06:26
  I'm in the kitchen, he's at the microwave and I'm just like
• 1:06:29
  silently like trying to find all these receipts and doing all
• 1:06:32
  this stuff that I hate and so hate.
• 1:06:35
  I hate it. I I hate it.
• 1:06:37
  It's the worst part of my life. I can't model any good behavior
• 1:06:42
  when it comes to it because I hate it.
• 1:06:44
  And he's cleaning the microwave and as he's going and he's it
• 1:06:49
  was overdoing he's like, I just cannot believe that it doesn't
• 1:06:53
  occur to you to clean it. And I'm like, oh, it's occurred
• 1:06:56
  to me, occurred to me many times.
• 1:07:00
  I'm just not going to do it. And he's like, this is
• 1:07:02
  disgusting. He's like, why is it always me?
• 1:07:05
  And I was like, it's always you. Because if I if I take that on,
• 1:07:11
  then that's just one more thing. And he was away this past
• 1:07:15
  weekend during this snowstorm and we had a Blizzard here in
• 1:07:18
  New Jersey. And so I had to do the things
• 1:07:21
  that typically, whether it's gender or just pure laziness on
• 1:07:26
  my part, I, he has done and, and one of the things that I think
• 1:07:30
  that I have done, Alex is in my own role as like CEO of my life
• 1:07:34
  is like a couple years ago, I was like, I will not learn a
• 1:07:37
  single thing. I was like, and if I don't know
• 1:07:41
  how to do it, I just can't do it.
• 1:07:43
  So we got a boat and my husband always like, let's go on the
• 1:07:46
  boat. We got to clean the boat.
• 1:07:47
  We got to do this. And I'm like, no, I will only
• 1:07:50
  ride the boat. I will not like, I will not help
• 1:07:53
  you clean it. I don't tie it up.
• 1:07:56
  I don't know anything about it because if I do, somehow that's
• 1:08:01
  going to end up on my plate. So one of the devastating things
• 1:08:05
  that's happened this weekend is that I learned how to use the
• 1:08:07
  generator. And even though I want to know
• 1:08:11
  because I should know, right? I'm a I'm a I'm an adult lady
• 1:08:15
  who can take care of herself. Now I know the next storm that
• 1:08:19
  comes around, I will my role can expand.
• 1:08:23
  So, you know, there's always being that CEO of Self, but
• 1:08:27
  sorry for going into that. I don't even know why.
• 1:08:31
  I just felt like I had to share the story about the microwave.
• 1:08:34
  But again, I do feel, and I don't know if this is a gender
• 1:08:37
  thing, but I do feel that the men I talked to, and it is
• 1:08:43
  significantly less than the women that I talked to.
• 1:08:45
  But the men that I talked to have no problem prioritizing
• 1:08:48
  pleasure for themselves. Like they're really good about
• 1:08:52
  being like, oh, you know what? I need to put the mask on myself
• 1:08:56
  and take care of myself. It's, it's part of their
• 1:08:58
  self-care. They recognize that pleasure is
• 1:09:01
  part of their self-care. Whereas for women that I talked
• 1:09:04
  to, it seems like pleasure is the is an afterthought.
• 1:09:09
  Alex, what were you going to say about it?
• 1:09:10
  You just tapped into something so important, which is.
• 1:09:14
  When women quote don't know how to do something, men will take
• 1:09:17
  step in and I'm using traditional male female roles.
• 1:09:22
  So really what you're talking about is like, if women sort of
• 1:09:28
  stop doing all the caretaking for the children, the men will
• 1:09:32
  step in. It's just you need to have that
• 1:09:35
  space. Like when you get a divorce,
• 1:09:37
  you'll typically see men suddenly doing a lot more
• 1:09:39
  emotional labor. They're going to do the cooking.
• 1:09:41
  They're going to start planning and prioritizing.
• 1:09:45
  And so some of this is like sidestepping and creating the
• 1:09:50
  shift for your partner to fill that space and trusting that
• 1:09:55
  it's OK to take care of yourself.
• 1:09:58
  It's just that a lot of times we put so much pressure on
• 1:10:01
  ourselves and saying, well, if I don't do this, nobody else will.
• 1:10:04
  The reality is, sometimes it's accurate and sometimes that's
• 1:10:07
  not. Yes, that's a good point, Alex.
• 1:10:11
  And I said that earlier. If I don't do it, nobody else
• 1:10:14
  will. And that's actually not true.
• 1:10:17
  For right now, where my kids and I are moving into this new
• 1:10:20
  place, they are making the doctor.
• 1:10:23
  My son recently over the holidays, he made an appointment
• 1:10:26
  at the urgent care for himself and it was really great.
• 1:10:31
  Now I took him and sat in the lobby while he went in for the
• 1:10:35
  sinus infection meeting for appointment.
• 1:10:37
  But he did it. And so yeah, you're right.
• 1:10:40
  It it's if I because I didn't do it, I thought, well, if you're
• 1:10:44
  really, I don't know how sick you are.
• 1:10:46
  You're telling me you're sick. I don't know how sick you are.
• 1:10:48
  And if it got so bad that he did it clearly, and I think that's
• 1:10:54
  great. And I think that's what happens
• 1:10:56
  with in change. Like no revolution ever happened
• 1:10:58
  because things were like, it's OK.
• 1:11:01
  No, it was so bad that then there was a revolution, right?
• 1:11:05
  So when things get so bad, I think that's when change is
• 1:11:09
  easy. You it's like a luxury of of
• 1:11:12
  bad, right? It's the the massive silver
• 1:11:15
  lining of bad, chaotic crisis things.
• 1:11:18
  You have to make a change. You have to change shift.
• 1:11:21
  You have to make a decision. That's why I feel like that CEO,
• 1:11:24
  that five year CEO thing is great guidance because I feel
• 1:11:27
  like it's even just in this conversation we're like, oh,
• 1:11:31
  we're shifting and that's great. I want to get back to one of the
• 1:11:34
  things you guys all mentioned too, is that sometimes one of
• 1:11:39
  the things to increase pleasure, have a better sex life,
• 1:11:42
  etcetera. If it's not, if you're not, if
• 1:11:45
  it's not self arousal and you're with a partner is the
• 1:11:47
  conversation. So sometimes those conversations
• 1:11:50
  can get awkward. Not everybody is versed in that.
• 1:11:55
  Not everybody is comfortable having these kinds of
• 1:11:57
  conversations. And I, it's funny, very recently
• 1:12:02
  I was with a bunch of college girls.
• 1:12:04
  I'll not say anybody's names, but if they're listening,
• 1:12:06
  they're going to know. And one of the girls was who
• 1:12:08
  grew up like in a very like Boston area, big Catholic
• 1:12:13
  family, no sex discussion, no idea.
• 1:12:16
  Like went to college and was like, fill me in people.
• 1:12:19
  Well, she had a roommate, another girlfriend of ours who
• 1:12:22
  was very sexually literate and, you know, had a long term
• 1:12:28
  boyfriend. And like the one girl said that
• 1:12:31
  she'd walk in and she was like, oh, look, I'm so sorry.
• 1:12:34
  And she was like, wait, why is he tied up?
• 1:12:38
  You can do it that way, too. So, you know, like conversations
• 1:12:44
  that we maybe aren't used to having, how do you start that?
• 1:12:48
  And anybody can answer how do women who haven't had those
• 1:12:52
  conversations start them? Naturally, right?
• 1:12:56
  I mean, you're watching a movie and you can start talking about
• 1:12:59
  it. You can read a book together and
• 1:13:00
  talk about it. You can talk about something you
• 1:13:02
  read in the newspaper. You can talk about the Epstein
• 1:13:04
  files, right? I mean, like there's anything,
• 1:13:08
  there's so much sex around us that that's a great way to start
• 1:13:12
  the conversation because it's not personal.
• 1:13:14
  You're not talking about yourself, but you're getting the
• 1:13:17
  topic going. And then from there you can say
• 1:13:20
  to someone, well, what's your personal opinion?
• 1:13:22
  How does that feel? How?
• 1:13:23
  How does that relate to us? Yeah, I think I don't know how
• 1:13:27
  you feel about this, Alex. I'm but I another sex therapist
• 1:13:31
  that I worked with often said a good time to talk about, Well,
• 1:13:35
  anytime is a good time to talk about sex with your partner.
• 1:13:37
  But sometimes talking about it in the moment is really tricky
• 1:13:41
  when you're already sort of and get starting to engage in sex or
• 1:13:45
  getting frustrated. But separating and having that
• 1:13:49
  conversation over breakfast at a separate time that feels less
• 1:13:51
  emotionally charged can be helpful too.
• 1:13:54
  If you are getting personal, your your example is more like
• 1:13:58
  you said, depersonalized. But if you are talking about
• 1:14:01
  your personal experience and your experience with your
• 1:14:03
  partner, sometimes it's good to bring it outside the bedroom
• 1:14:06
  into somewhere that feels very neutral as a safe starting point
• 1:14:10
  that feels less charged. I get this question a lot with
• 1:14:15
  parents saying how do you talk to your kids?
• 1:14:18
  And, you know, you talk to your kids and when you feel the most
• 1:14:23
  connected to your kids, you know, you're whatever you're
• 1:14:26
  talking about, that's the best time because that all you're
• 1:14:32
  trying to do is just add a new category to that connected
• 1:14:37
  dialogue. And, and a lot of them say,
• 1:14:40
  well, I, I should ask them at this time.
• 1:14:43
  Well, you're not connected. You're not having a conversation
• 1:14:46
  about something else. Do it when you're having a
• 1:14:48
  conversation about something else and you guys are feeling
• 1:14:51
  connected. Maybe you, you're laughing about
• 1:14:53
  something. It's easy.
• 1:14:55
  That's when you add it in and just keep your eyebrows from
• 1:14:58
  raising right. Just a neutral face.
• 1:15:03
  It's a neutral face when you're already talking to your kid
• 1:15:07
  about something that they're interested in, that's a good
• 1:15:10
  time to bring it up. It's easy.
• 1:15:12
  And then and don't, don't be surprised and well, we need to
• 1:15:15
  talk. Don't make it a big thing.
• 1:15:17
  You know, anything that's going to be well, we need to talk
• 1:15:20
  about this is it's going to put up the barriers right away.
• 1:15:26
  To add on to that, I would encourage people to try having
• 1:15:30
  these intimate conversations either before sex, during sex,
• 1:15:34
  after sex, at all different random times because everybody's
• 1:15:38
  an individual and you really don't know how the other
• 1:15:41
  person's going to respond best. You know, some people feel the
• 1:15:45
  most safe after you've had good sex.
• 1:15:46
  Some people feel the most safe right before sex.
• 1:15:49
  Some people feel the the best or confident during so try lots of
• 1:15:57
  different ways and mental notes and see what works and then
• 1:16:01
  replicate it. Yeah.
• 1:16:03
  That's a good point. I, I, I tell my parents that.
• 1:16:06
  Not my parents, but you know, parents of kids who asked me
• 1:16:08
  this, you know, when do your kids go to the grocery store
• 1:16:11
  with you? Then when they're at the
• 1:16:15
  grocery, you're at the grocery store.
• 1:16:16
  You got the backdrop of these other things and you know, if
• 1:16:20
  you're next to each other or you're then going into the car
• 1:16:23
  and you're loading the bags, that's a good time.
• 1:16:27
  It's easy, it's light, there's not, there's no intensity.
• 1:16:31
  You're going to the grocery store.
• 1:16:33
  They're relaxed, right? That I don't know.
• 1:16:35
  Those are the suggestions. I, I always feel like it's car
• 1:16:38
  rides. Long car rides are like the best
• 1:16:41
  for any kind of conversation. You know, I can actually
• 1:16:44
  remember 1 long car ride where I got in the car with my husband.
• 1:16:47
  I think it was a family trip and I was like so furious with him.
• 1:16:50
  I don't I could not possibly remember what it was about.
• 1:16:52
  But by the end of the car ride, I was like, I actually still
• 1:16:54
  really like you like, but I was like, you can have those kind of
• 1:16:59
  low expectation conversations that turn into something more so
• 1:17:04
  often. I don't want to keep you guys
• 1:17:07
  any longer because you've been awesome with your time.
• 1:17:10
  But just one last question before I let you all go.
• 1:17:14
  Is there anything that you wish women knew sooner or that you
• 1:17:18
  wanted to share with the women listening that I didn't talk
• 1:17:21
  about that we didn't get into? Caitlin, you want to start?
• 1:17:26
  Come back to me. I'm thinking pressure.
• 1:17:29
  Lisa Yeah, I mean, mine might be kind of specific to running this
• 1:17:34
  business, but what I wish I knew a while ago was how little
• 1:17:42
  funding is allocated to women founders.
• 1:17:45
  And that is not just in the venture space, which is
• 1:17:49
  obviously where I am, but the largest funder in the United
• 1:17:55
  States, NIH allocates just under 1% of their entire budget to
• 1:18:04
  Women's Health and a tiny fraction of that, less than 1%,
• 1:18:08
  to reproductive health. 170 million women.
• 1:18:13
  I mean, that is just absolutely bananas.
• 1:18:17
  I mean, there isn't a word that actually accurately describes
• 1:18:20
  what that is. And I so wish I had known that
• 1:18:24
  well before starting this journey.
• 1:18:26
  I'm not quite sure how I would have done anything differently,
• 1:18:32
  but knowing it would have been a better way to set up my
• 1:18:38
  expectations for how long this would take and the challenges
• 1:18:42
  that I would face, right being because, you know, I, I played
• 1:18:47
  soccer in college, you know, I was, I, I did whatever I wanted
• 1:18:51
  to do. I didn't think there were any
• 1:18:52
  limitations. I thought honestly, I believed I
• 1:18:54
  could do anything I set my mind to and I was not prepared for
• 1:18:59
  that big cinder block wall ahead of me that that systematically
• 1:19:06
  blocks women from being able to, you know, do what they want to
• 1:19:11
  do in in this in this situation. So that's what I wish I had
• 1:19:16
  known sooner. And I I hope knowing it now that
• 1:19:19
  everybody knows it now that it's, you know, on its way to
• 1:19:22
  shifting. But.
• 1:19:24
  I feel like I have so much to respond to that that I'm not
• 1:19:27
  going to at all because but I my one pull away for our audience
• 1:19:31
  is that we have to keep showing up and we have to keep talking
• 1:19:34
  and having these conversations because if we don't, I mean talk
• 1:19:38
  about if we don't do it, no one will really no one will.
• 1:19:41
  So this isn't, this isn't our personal thing.
• 1:19:44
  This is every woman has to know these things because I think a
• 1:19:48
  lot of us, especially at this age, were raised with the idea
• 1:19:51
  that we could be or do anything and we've been like really
• 1:19:54
  shocked and stunned that society is not kept up they're.
• 1:19:58
  In a. Bargain because I I I remember
• 1:20:02
  thinking even about women presidents, like of course there
• 1:20:04
  would be a women. Now I'm like, well, I hope so.
• 1:20:06
  I mean I but I assumed we'd be on like our second or third one
• 1:20:10
  by now. And you know, it's anyway, Alex,
• 1:20:13
  anything you want at last take away or that I didn't talk about
• 1:20:16
  that you wanted to talk about that you were like we're talking
• 1:20:19
  about this and we didn't do. I just want to add that I think
• 1:20:24
  women still can do it all. You can't do everything well,
• 1:20:28
  but you can do one thing extraordinarily well.
• 1:20:31
  And the cost might be high to get there, but you have to dream
• 1:20:34
  it and you have to believe in it, and you have to be willing
• 1:20:37
  to get yourself back up there and keep trying and pushing
• 1:20:40
  yourself forward because you're your own boss and you're
• 1:20:44
  unstoppable. I I love that too, because I
• 1:20:47
  think that we have to keep, we have to keep believing it.
• 1:20:52
  We have to have a message of hope because the reality is
• 1:20:55
  really difficult. And if we're not pushing
• 1:20:58
  ourselves forward, what do we got?
• 1:21:00
  So thank you guys. Caitlin, I'm back.
• 1:21:03
  To you, Lisa. Now you set me up perfectly for
• 1:21:06
  exactly what I was thinking because it was almost like
• 1:21:08
  opposite sides of the same coin and I I'm with you Lisa.
• 1:21:13
  I also work extensively in the startup space and I'm constantly
• 1:21:16
  frustrated by the lack of funding and acknowledgement and
• 1:21:19
  options for female founders and for women in general trying to
• 1:21:24
  solve their own problems in in their health or other parts of
• 1:21:28
  their life. But I also agree with Alex too,
• 1:21:30
  of that there is as frustrated as I get.
• 1:21:34
  I, I felt you, Danielle, and I was like, oh, I just want to say
• 1:21:37
  all the things when Lisa said this, as frustrated as I feel I
• 1:21:42
  have to step back as well and say, OK, what do I do with this
• 1:21:45
  information? The system wasn't built for me.
• 1:21:47
  How do I keep fighting? How do I keep showing up for
• 1:21:49
  myself? And reminding listeners as well
• 1:21:53
  that the medical system too, it was not really built for female
• 1:21:56
  bodies. We're getting better, but we
• 1:21:58
  still have to advocate for ourselves because a lot of the
• 1:22:01
  research and the data was almost exclusively performed on male
• 1:22:05
  bodies. And we are fighting to change
• 1:22:08
  that. And we are fighting showing up
• 1:22:09
  to try to bring more data into women's specific conditions and
• 1:22:14
  how women are different from men or from even non binary folks.
• 1:22:19
  There's a whole spectrum. But continuing to advocate for
• 1:22:22
  ourselves and not taking no for an answer.
• 1:22:25
  When you know that something is not right in your body, in your
• 1:22:29
  mind, whatever it is, it's very easy to fall down a rabbit hole
• 1:22:33
  when you're being told, oh, it's normal, sweetie, just have a
• 1:22:36
  glass of wine. Oh, you're fine.
• 1:22:38
  This is part of getting older. When you're hearing all these
• 1:22:40
  messages, I just really encourage people to stay in what
• 1:22:44
  you know in your own body and keep looking for answers, maybe
• 1:22:48
  talk to someone else, maybe get another opinion.
• 1:22:50
  Because the more we learn about female bodies, the more we'll be
• 1:22:54
  able to better care for them. And there are people out there
• 1:22:57
  that will listen and will help and actually advocate for you if
• 1:23:02
  you advocate for yourself. And Gen.
• 1:23:05
  ZI love that too. Caitlin, remind me of a headline
• 1:23:09
  I read the other day. My daughter's in Spain right
• 1:23:11
  now. And so I keep up on what's going
• 1:23:14
  on. And there was a judge, a woman
• 1:23:15
  judge in Barcelona that made headlines for a decision.
• 1:23:21
  Her decision was to enable the injuries that a woman sustained
• 1:23:25
  in a car accident to be covered by insurance or she was denied
• 1:23:30
  by insurance. And the insurance, the reason
• 1:23:33
  for the denial was that her injuries couldn't possibly have
• 1:23:37
  become have come from the car crash because it was
• 1:23:40
  inconsistent with their actuarial data, which was based
• 1:23:42
  on a male body. I don't know if you guys read
• 1:23:45
  this. And so I was like, yes, wow,
• 1:23:49
  this is great. And I said to my daughter,
• 1:23:50
  sweetie, look at the headlines in Barsa.
• 1:23:52
  You know, this woman, Judge, you know, justice prevailed.
• 1:23:56
  And the, you know, the white men of the insurance industry were
• 1:24:00
  schooled. And this is great.
• 1:24:02
  And her response? Oh, yeah.
• 1:24:05
  Well, that should have happened. Like it was an expectation.
• 1:24:10
  And I thought, OK, yeah. Gosh, she's right.
• 1:24:13
  She's right. She's right here.
• 1:24:16
  I am like, woo Hoo. And she's like, duh, Mom.
• 1:24:20
  So maybe that is growing in other areas that duh, yes, this
• 1:24:27
  is how it should be. Absolutely, you guys.
• 1:24:32
  Ladies, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:24:34
  I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your time and your
• 1:24:38
  expertise and your willingness to have awkward conversations
• 1:24:41
  with me. You are all the best.
• 1:24:43
  Thank you so much. Thanks, Danielle.
• 1:24:46
  Thanks everybody. I'm so grateful to this group
• 1:24:50
  for having such an honest, funny, and frankly refreshing
• 1:24:53
  conversation about the things so many of us were never really
• 1:24:56
  taught, and sometimes still. Don't know how to talk about.
• 1:24:59
  I keep thinking about how much easier so many things would be
• 1:25:02
  if conversations like this weren't the exception but the
• 1:25:04
  norm. And next week, we're continuing
• 1:25:06
  that thread in a different way. We're talking about the
• 1:25:09
  assumptions that get made about women, especially in places like
• 1:25:12
  education, and what it looks like to challenge them, question
• 1:25:15
  them, and maybe rewrite them entirely with Rebecca Pierce.
• 1:25:19
  If this episode seemed like something you might have had
• 1:25:21
  with your best girlfriends, share it with them.
• 1:25:23
  That's how these conversations keep going.
• 1:25:25
  Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week on Roar.