Latest / The Driven Athlete / Mind-Body Interplay & Pain Science w/ Mary Tatum | Ep 21

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Mind-Body Interplay & Pain Science w/ Mary Tatum | Ep 21 · The Driven Athlete

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: If you're a driven, active person who wants to reach and pursue a higher quality life with some ambition, then guess what this podcast is for you.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Driven Athlete Podcast.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: What's up?
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Y'all?
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: It's your man, dr Kyle.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Driven Athlete Podcast.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: We got round two awesome guests Mary Tatum we got a lot of cool positive reviews and feedback from our last ones.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: We had to get her in again, so thanks for coming again.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Happy to.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: It's always fun being here.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Good and let everybody know your role, what you do and how you help people.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: So I'm a licensed mental health counselor, private practice.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I've been in private practice for 10 years.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: I did 10 years of drug rehab before that, social work before that, and now I'm a PhD research student.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: That's awesome and that's the over in Ukraine and loneliness of leadership.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: So the school is here.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: We work in conjunction with a school in Ukraine.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: We are.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: This is the first time in history we can research how to decompress your nervous system as an active soldier during a time of war.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: So you'll send soldiers out on deployment, they'll fight, they come back and then we work on how to calm your nervous system and just your reaction to things.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: It's really PTSD prevention is what we're working on, Gotcha.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: That's really cool, thank you.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Obviously it's a very challenging and prevalent thing with individuals that have been a part of like military and war and stuff.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of like you're trying to prevent it from happening in the moment so that later on they're in a different direction.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, so PTSD is actually not diagnosable until you have symptoms for 30 days.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: So your body's natural reactions what we call acute stress reaction and it's.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: There's a stage between zero and two days where you're just heightened, like, let's say, you almost get into a car wreck.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: You're probably going to be a little apprehensive the next time you get in the car and you go drive somewhere.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: You're watching a little more.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: So that's normal.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: That's your body's defenses.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Your body is wired to make sure you don't die.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: So, if something happens to threaten that, you're going to be on edge.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: That's normal.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Your symptoms should decrease.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: If it doesn't decrease between two and 30 days, that's another acute phase.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: If it's 30 days or longer, it's PTSD.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: So what we're trying to do is create protocols and systems and way of dealing with things that decrease your symptoms in less than 30 days so it doesn't become post-traumatic stress.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, that's really cool, thank you.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: So that's the PhD you're pursuing right now?
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, and you said you're also going to a conference later in March, I think, on the long leadership, the long-listened leadership.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, and in March we're presenting some research on the loneliness of leadership.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I'm on two teams there.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: The first is the loneliness of pastoral leadership, because pastors are actually not part of the church community.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: They lead the church community.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: So there's a very unique mindset among pastors where, when they have issues like who are they going to talk to?
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: It's also the demographic that seeks therapy last.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: So what's very interesting is, while pastors are doing a better job at balancing between work demands and family like they're spending more time with family, they're spending more time with friends they are still the last demographic that will seek mental health therapy.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that is?
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Because it's very hard for helpers to admit that they also need help.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Like I got everything under control, I got everything wrapped up, I got this.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: So if you're a altruistic person or someone who's in the helping field, it's the shame is in.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I should be doing better at this.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: I should have a better handle on this.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I see.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in their own head, but it's a sign of weakness.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: If I need help, I should be the helper.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Interesting, that makes sense.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I can see that that's really cool.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I think you mentioned that before with leadership and stuff and with the leaders of church like pastors who do they have to go to, without being like the CEO isn't going to go to another board director and be like, hey, I need help.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Exactly yes.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, when you're the CEO and you are where the buck stops, where you go More then, yeah, cool.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Well, back to some of those stuff we talked about last time with, I guess, as it relates to, like, fitness health, mental health, as it relates to physical health, and the correlation between them and a mentor in the past is, like always said to me, you can't unfortunately we can't separate the mind from the body, yes, and there's a ton of interplay and all that stuff going on which is, I think, in my opinion, way undervalued and underappreciated.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: I would agree.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: I think it also has a really story having the pain experience and then their progressions, but then also like with fitness and social life and all that stuff too.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: So last time you mentioned the hope chemical has been unveiled as like a natural painkiller.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: What is that?
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: So there's something actually called the hope circuit and if you want to look more into this, get Martin Seligman's book.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: The hope circuit came out in 2018.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: And they found that there is actually a brain chemical literal circle circuit between the mind and the body, that when a person experiences hope, it releases natural painkillers.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: So they found that it's actually akin to what heroin does.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: So when a person takes heroin, opiates are pain blockers.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: So when your brain receives messages from your body that there's pain going on, opiates block it.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: What a lot of people don't know is it's not just physical pain, it's also emotional pain.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: So heroin makes you feel nothing.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: So if you have past trauma, anxiety, whatever, it's the first time, you don't feel any of that.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: The problem is you also don't feel anything positive, so it numbs you out completely.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: So when a person experiences hope or has hope, it releases endorphins and enkephalins and those are your body's natural pain blockers.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Cool, that's really cool.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: So you can purposefully maybe activate or leverage that stuff.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: With what?
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, and here's a very important distinction that most people miss.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: If you want to look more into this, dr Jeremy Gruppman MD.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: He is a cancer researcher.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: He started studying cancer in the 70s and 80s.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: He's been researching it throughout.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: He came up with there's a oh.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: The book is called the Anatomy of Hope and what he found is there's a big difference between false hope and then true hope, and legit help hope.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Legit hope, the kind of hope that actually works.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: So false hope is it's a form of denial and it's kind of dismissive.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: So it's like if someone comes to you and like I'm really worried about this, like you know what, it's fine, just be positive, like it's fine.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: What false fake?
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: It's fake, it's totally fake.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: What false hope does is it ignores the challenges and it ignores the parts that are going to be really difficult to go through.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: So, for example, if somebody injures themselves and athlete injures themselves and they have to go through surgery, they have to go through physical therapy, this is going to be a journey.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: So what they look at is what is the image in your head of your future, having experienced this injury?
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: What is life like after this injury?
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: So if you have a fear or a negative outlook, like I'm not going to be able to run the same, I'm not going to be able to be as agile, Right.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to do this as well.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Your body is actually going to release the stress hormones which is going to make your physical feelings more painful.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: So when you look at depression people with depression they often say like it hurts, it does, like they are in physical pain because of their depression Life on the flip side, you see your physical injury, as this is going to be really tough.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: You know, physical therapy can be painful sometimes, but if I have the right team around me and I'm talking to them about what's working and what's not, pretty sure like I can come back, possibly even better than when I got injured.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: So, with true hope, you are acknowledging the parts that are going to be really challenging and probably pretty painful.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: But if I do these things in a certain way and I have the right people around me, I'm going to.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I'm going to overcome this just fine, and that is what makes your physical pain less.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: That's what sends out the endorphins and the other chemicals that block the physical pain.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: So it's like your body wants to help you do better.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome, makes total sense and we can dive into pain science, because I'm a huge nerd about that stuff and I'm always open to learning stuff and like getting different insights.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: But what you're saying is emotional distress, stress, anxiety can heighten physical symptoms.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, even maybe when there's damage not present.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Even when they're okay.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: So we call those somatiform disorders and we'll see.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: We'll get these people a lot in private practice where they their physical pain is 100% real.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: They're not faking it, they're not making it up.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Real for them.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: It is real.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: But there's no medical reason why they're feeling that way.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: So they've done every test, They've done every doctor.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: There's nothing.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: We know that it's.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: It's from an emotional source.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: So then we have to look at what's going on emotionally and in the narrative.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Like, everybody has that almost like a news ticker running across their brain what they're thinking.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: So what is that narrative and that news ticker?
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Breaking news flash boom, yeah, yes, interesting, and that makes total sense too.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: What's that news flash heighten alert, new information in here.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: What's?
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: that say Exactly Well, yeah, and that's what we pick apart.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: And usually when it's negative or when it's self-defeating, it's coming from conditioning that somebody else has told you so, like if you were raised by a very negative parent.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: If you have someone in your life, even a spouse or a friend, who's always talking negatively or pessimistically, that ticker is going to start.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: It's, it's.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: The ticker is not only going to be negative, it's going to start questioning the positive.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: But do I actually have?
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Do I?
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Am I on the right track?
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Well, they are, as a pessimistic, so maybe I am.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'm actually accurate on this.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: So it changes, it conditions you to be more towards that, or just heightened awareness of like as pessimism, like you're saying.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, people conform to what they're around.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, always.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: So if I'm around people who are negatively talking all the time, I'm going to start either thinking negatively or even questioning my own positivity.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And then I've got the painful chemicals that go with that and I'm going to start lowering my own belief of what I can actually do.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: That makes total sense.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: You are who you hang out with I've heard that a ton and surround yourself with like-minded people, or at least what you want to be.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Also, some I've heard yes.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: So to go along with that, there's a test called the ACEs A-C-E-S, and it's what we use to assess for childhood trauma specifically.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: And the reason why childhood trauma is different from adult trauma is because it's during the formative years.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: So your brain develops from the core, then almost like a balloon that goes out, so from the core and then out and then also from back to front.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Front is the decision-making part of your brain, the back is where breathing your eyesight.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Autonomic stuff.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Autonomic stuff, exactly.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: So when especially long-term and complex trauma where there's multiple events, your brain will change and form around those events.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: We have found that.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: So the ACEs is a test of 10 questions.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: If you score five or above, you have a higher chance of cancer or heart disease later in life by like a big percent, wow.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: And then if you score a six or above, your chance at your life expectancy is 20 years shorter.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: My gosh.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: So people see that and they immediately panic like I'm going to die.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Your brain is also plastic, meaning that it can change and it can't form.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: But that's where hope comes in.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: You have to see it differently than how you were taught to see it.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Man, that's very interesting.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: When do people usually take the ACEs test?
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: When they have to.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Like when it's like I'm at a breaking point, so it's adulthood, they take it, or early adulthood.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: You can take it at any age.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: These aren't kids taking it.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: You can be a child that takes it.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: There's also a new theory just now coming out where, if you are diagnosed with ADHD as a child or an adult, some psychologists are.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: They're not only giving an ADHD test, they're giving an ACEs and an ADHD because there is a now a theory that a lot of ADHD is childhood trauma Interesting Not all of it, but a lot of it.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not by no means my life for this stuff, but I'm not surprised to hear that I think it's overdiagnosed.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I'm like and as I've gotten more into my like somewhat coherent adult years, you know, in professional years and stuff I'm like there's a lot of like messed up parents and people out there.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, no wonder why people are also jacked up all the time, it's true, because no one's perfect, of course no but if you look at what ADHD is, it's the inability to focus and it's hyperactivity.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: A lot of times it also looks different in boys than it does in girls.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: So girls will have inner anxiety, like they will look calm on the outside but their insides are wrecked, and then boys will be more outward with that.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: So if you look at what it is, inability to focus, there's a lot of mood swings that happen with ADHD adults and kids and then just the hyperactivity.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: If you look at that through a fight or flight lens kind of looks the same.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally makes total sense.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: With the pain science, the hope circuit meant emotional impacts and stress, anxiety manifesting as physical symptoms or heightening physical symptoms.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Right, like I said, I'm not an expert by this.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Money means pain science is something that we've definitely dived into a lot that I feel like I've.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Somebody asked me recently with my clinical practice or the pedicum sports, what do you find yourself going more into and nerding out on or putting a lot of weight on?
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I'm like dude.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Pain science, yes, the psychological component, it's like everything it makes a huge impact versus just like this doesn't make sense.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Like you have this anatomical issue and these weaknesses and mobility deficits.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Why isn't this working?
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, like pain science, anyway.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: So, that being said, we try to have tactful conversations with people.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Right Of you know, like how you've been in a car accident 13 years ago and you're still in severe pain, right, yes, the MRI would suggest that there's still some mild abnormalities, but not a lot that would correlate to the symptoms that as a person is having.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Right, these are conversations.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: We're having the back door of our on our heads, right?
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Not with the patient.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: So we're putting all these stuff together, right?
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So we're like you've been in pain for 13 years.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: We know that physical tissues right Muscles, discs, linty, gavins, all those things they usually bones they heal in like three months, six to eight weeks, sometimes 12 weeks.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: So like, what happened?
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: The remaining 12 years and eight months of time to cause continual pain when there's actually no physical damage?
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: That would suggest and correlate yes, so like, why Right?
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: So anyway, and I want your insights.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: All right, we usually go the route of saying like hey, when you're in pain for a long time, right, the nervous system gets used to those signals and gets used to those sensory or those inputs that don't always they're hyper vigilant.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: It's like a car radio on full blast and they're ready to send signals, they're on high alert, ready to go.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: So we just gonna turn the car radio down.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: We need to lower the that hyper vigilance and a good way to do that is just moving and grooving.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Motion is lotion.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: We can strengthen some stuff is appropriate and the goal is for you to leave here every day feeling better than when you came in, cool, and we just it's just not functioning, as the nervous system isn't functioning as appropriate as it could be, maybe it hasn't in the past and we just got to turn the radio down.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Would your thoughts on that, yeah, and what other suggestions would you say?
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I completely agree.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: So, going back to Jeremy Grootman's book anatomy of hope, he injured his back Forget what it is Went through surgeries and every surgery he had made it worse, more pain like debilitating pain.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: And he's a doctor, so he's, you know, running around hospitals all day.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: And they're unfortunately.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Docs are like really challenging patients to work with, because they're very knowledgeable, yes, and usually very patho anatomical, versus maybe putting the whole picture together, if that makes sense.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: They can also be very rigid thinkers, and that serves them very well as a doctor, because they're dealing with a lot of chaos and very high emotions, so they do things in very overly structured way.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: So it's what makes them very good doctors.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: It's also what makes them very hard on themselves when a personal situation happens, which makes them can make them a struggle to work with Challenging patient.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, it must be this way.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: So he injured.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: His back Surgery made it worse.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: He got a massage one day and it threw him into like the worst pain of his life, all this kind of stuff, and he ended up and I forget the name.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I'll have to go back and look.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: But he went to a doctor that had worked with some athletes and he did all the exams, looked at the x-rays, looked at everything, whatever.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: And the doctor said you are worshiping at the volcano, god of pain.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: It's that every time your back hurts, you stop moving.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: So your body is now conditioned to feel a pain and immediately stop.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: You're not working through it, you're not moving through it.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: So then he put him through a series of exercises that took six months, a year, whatever, and his pain went away.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: But he had to go through the pain in order to get out of the pain.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the exact same thing is true with emotional pain.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: So if you look at addiction recovery, the only reason why people do any kind of drugs is for two reasons One, you want to take a high and make it higher, and two, you want to escape from negative emotions.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: So, in order to achieve sobriety and to be able to have any kind of distress, tolerance for any kind of emotional pain.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: You drugs take you up.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: You have to be willing to go down soberly as deep as you have to go to find the bottom of the pain and then be able to sit through that until it passes on its own.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: That's the only way that people get sober.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So the same is kind of true for physical pain.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: You have to be willing to go through it and not to make it the God that dictates your every move.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Right, totally Interesting.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: What conversations do you have with patients or clients that you work with, if you've done in the past?
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: It's really interesting because you have to look at.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: So we have something called core beliefs.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: That kind of rule the therapy world where we can have techniques and all this kind of stuff.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: But when you get all that out of the way, what it really comes down to is what do you believe about yourself?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So you have people that come in.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: They have a goal, and then they have a lot of fear associated with that goal.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: And then you have people that come in.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: They're like here's my goal, I don't care what it takes, this has to go.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: So we call that the gift of desperation.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: When you have the gift of desperation, if I tell you to stand on your head and spin around like a top, you'll be like great, when do we start?
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Perfect, yeah, the person who has all the fear associated with it.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: That's a very start.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Stop, start, stop.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: So we ask two questions in therapy what's not working for you?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: And then, what are you willing to do about it?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: The first question is usually very easy to answer.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: The second question is usually where are we this week?
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: What are we still willing to do about it?
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: That's the one that creates the stop and start.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: What kind of goals do you have in mind?
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: You're talking about right now that people usually bring up in those kind of situations.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: It's really as individual as when people have they come into your office for physical therapy.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: It's as individual as that.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: But the process is similar in the fact that where am I getting, in my own way, like there are things that have happened to me and then there are ways that I have picked that up and carried the same habit and pattern.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: That's not working for me.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Freud was the first to say that 90% of what humans do is subconscious.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: We're only aware of 10%.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: So when I start asking questions and when I start kind of digging down into things, there's part relief and then there's part fear.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: It's not pleasant for our ego when I have actually been causing some of my own pain and I haven't been aware of it.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Right and just accepting that and then willing to do something about it.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: It's interesting, like the willingness to like for somebody who wants to pursue a goal right and then have to go through a challenging route, some self reflection, right or like.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: On the other end, I guess, and at like someone battling addiction, are you willing to go to that low right, knowing that at the end of it is going to be a huge benefit?
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Obviously, that's very scary for those people, like for everybody.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: What makes it scary is the unfamiliarity with like or is it?
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I'm not.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Can I handle this?
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: That's exactly it, or is?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: it fear of failure, as I'm like.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Am I going to look like an idiot to everybody else?
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Both of those, really like all of those.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: So if I tell you we have to go through some pain to get out of it, the first question, the first thought people usually have is like I don't know if I can deal with that Handle it.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I don't know if I have what it takes.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: There is a big fear with a lot of people because usually when you come to therapy you have to manage life at the same time.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Rarely are people able to stop life and just do therapy.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Focus on that.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: You usually have to keep going to work and you have to keep raising your kids, like life has to go on.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: So there's a fear that I will not be able to handle this.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I will fall apart, it will be humiliating, everyone will see what a weak person I am and I will never get my stuff back together.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, With that.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: I heard of really interesting a quip about that of like everyone's going to judge me.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: I'm fear of failure, I'm going to look like an idiot.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: It's humiliating, right.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Somebody was telling me for somebody who's trying to get back to fitness, somebody's very overweight, they want to work out and they go to the gym.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Who are the people that are going to be like what's she's trying to do, or he's trying to do, Like what a loser you know?
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Like this is humiliating.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: It's usually people that are also not in great shape when imagine like bodybuilders in there or super extreme fitness enthusiasts that work all the time.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Those are the people that are usually like hey, high five.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Like if you came up and asked me a question right now, like I would love to help you.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Like great work, Keep it up.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Like the experts are the ones that are diving into that kind of life, are the ones that are going to be like man, this is, I'm so proud of you.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Whereas the people who aren't are the ones that are going to be judgemental, and it's like if you can have them like a piece at a part, it's like then what am I worried about?
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Like they're not doing it either, you know, and they're the judgemental ones.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so the people that are struggling the most.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I stopped paying attention to any comments that I ever saw on social media or online anything, because the one thing that I heard over and over and over, after 10 years of working in rehab settings, is that people one of their favorite hobbies to do was to get drunk or high and then just go blast people online because I'm miserable.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to make you miserable as much as I can.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I'm going to just spread that misery around.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So when I, when I read comments online just you know Twitter, whatever like who's bashing who?
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: I'm like.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: A were you sober when you wrote that it's a good question?
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And B how miserable are you that?
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: That's what you came up with.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Right, totally.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Where does that come from?
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Like that motivation to be like I'm going to make everybody miserable.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I want everybody to be like me.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: It's like are they usually like upset with themselves and where they're at and they want?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: to hurt people, hurt people.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: That's one of our most famous sayings in the therapy world Hurt people, hurt people hurt people, hurt people.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So if I'm hurt, that that's the.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Gary Vaynerchuk says this and it's it's really well put.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: He says if you want to have, if you want to have the tallest building in the city.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I said there's one of two ways to get that.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: You can either build the tallest building in the city and if you look at how much that costs the design, the structure or building it like that is decades of work, a lot of stress, a lot of planning or you can just take a wrecking ball to every building that's taller than yours and knock it down until you're the tallest one standing.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes total sense.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: That's exactly it.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: You know that's a bummer, you know, but I've at least recognized in that I'm sure that would go a long way.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: So, like not take things to heart or, from what I've heard from other mentors, like just not worry about other people say, which is so easy to do, like to say, but it's also hard when some of those people I would imagine are close to you, that you respect, that you like family and friends and stuff like that.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Like what are they going to think?
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: What are they going to think and what are they going to?
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: say, yeah, I another person, a really cool podcast that I listened to on like philosophy and entrepreneurship and business and stuff, because there's so much hand in hand with that.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, and also it was really some of my own goals and fitness and health and wellness and being a dad and whatever, but anyway.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: So he said something cool.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: He was like if you're trying to pursue a goal or something like that, um, you're like, well, I don't know if I can't, you know, I'm worried about what they're going to fear failure.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: It's going to be humiliating, whatever.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Walk all the way back to be like what is going to make it humiliating?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Who is going to say that?
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: What would they say?
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: And then, who's going to say that?
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Who exactly is going to say that?
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And it usually comes down to like literally one or two people, one person.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: So when you get there and be like I'm worried about what this person's going to say If I pursue this goal, and it'd be like why are you trying so hard?
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Like what a loser you know, write their name on a piece of paper and then write what they think they're going to say or why you're preventing yourself from going because of what they think.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: And then, all of a sudden you look at it and you're like that's it, that's the one person like F, that guy Dude, I don't care what he thinks, anyway you know he's going to be judgmental Like who cares.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: And then also why it just minimizes it.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but why exactly?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Why are they saying that?
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: There are times where, if somebody said something negative to me or critical or whatever, I will just I don't do this all the time, but I will stop them and say what is your goal in saying that right now?
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Why are you telling me this?
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Because it's not to encourage me, it's not to make my day better.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Like, what is your goal in actually saying this?
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And people are, some people, some personality types are so critical, just out of habit.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they don't even realize they're doing it and sometimes they've forgotten.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: But, like, what is your goal in saying that?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: It's usually not a not a good one.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Do you a couple of questions.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: What strategies do you have to people Like what?
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I just walked through with that other person.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I was like that's cool, I like that.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Do you agree with that?
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Or what other strategies would you have for somebody who's like I do want to go after this.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I totally not boat.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I'm worried about what someone's going to say and I bet it's this person.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: What strategies would you say to help that person to be like I'm going to go anyway.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I couldn't do it.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: So the Stoics came up with this the Stoic philosophers you know back many, many moons ago and they said you live your life backwards.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: So you imagine yourself at 90 or 100 years old and you float back and you look at your life backwards.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: What do you want to say that you did with your life and what do you think are going to be your biggest regrets if you don't do these certain things?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: So if you look back, if you look back over your life, people think of what they did and who was in their life.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: They don't think about how they were criticized.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: They think about the things that they actually did, the things that they accomplished.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: So when you look at if you get a degree like I got my bachelor's degree, you're not really like when you think about that, you think about the accomplishment of it.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: You don't think about the challenges so much of getting that degree.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: You just think, yes, I did it.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: So what are you going to regret the most?
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: That you didn't do?
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Do not trade the short term pain for the long term goal.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Right, totally so, plant.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Look at the end game.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Like man, I did this, this and this.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: That's what I want it to look like and I want to pursue that, to do that.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: What's it going to take to get there?
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Of course, and even in that, on my deathbed, you're going to look back and be like I'm so glad I did that, or I did this, this and this, and not think about like.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Do you remember that one person said that one comment on social media Like I can think about it.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Here's the other thing Nobody ever remembers a critic, ever.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: True.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: They might remember.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: They might remember that somebody was criticized or somebody was controversial, but what they think about is that person and what that person did they never.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: People know musicians.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: They don't know music critics.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: It's true.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Nobody remembers a critic, so really I don't want to say they don't matter, but the criticism really doesn't.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: They're insignificant.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: That's really cool, that's awesome.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: What was the other question?
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you something else.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: It was the okay about, oh okay, the Stoics.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: I love that kind of stuff.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Philosophy, I'm really into that.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: What else from that would you recommend for people?
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Strategies to?
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Like pursue things, not worry about the critics, of course, right, have you heard that before?
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Like write their name down and then it just minimizes the value that, the weight you put on that.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: That's a big thing in therapy, both with emotions and with exactly what you're talking about.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Everyone's a drama queen in their own head, so when it stays in our head it's much bigger than what it actually is when you get it out on paper.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: We even do this with labeling emotions, like if you're having an anxious moment, if you tell yourself this is just anxiety controlling it, what it is makes it instantly smaller.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: So the goal is for you to be in control of your own life rather than you, which fears an emotion?
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: So the fear of criticism rather than the emotions controlling you.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: The control, like a big theme I've heard.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: With that stuff is like cannot, what can I control and actually not control?
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And if I'm continuing wrestling with things or having anxiety and stress over things that I can't control anyway and it's going to have any value Like there's no, there's nothing I can change about that and I can't control it.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: So then at least help me focus on what stuff I can control, as in like, I want to pursue this goal.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I want to lose weight.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I want to go to fitness right, I want to fix my pain or whatever.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I want to go see a therapist or a mental health therapist to fix these issues or make myself improve my life Right, cool, but I'm worried about how I'm going to be perceived and looked at.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Right Bye, let's break this down.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I'm worried about this and fear of failure and this, and I think it's.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: I'm worried about this person really.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's really fear of rejection.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Fear of rejection.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fear of rejection.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: If I don't do things the way this person wants me to do, I'm going to lose this person, and if that's a parent, if that's a spouse, if that's a best friend, that could be a big problem.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: So, with that being said, then some stoic stuff that I remember reflecting on was like can I control what their reaction is anyway?
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: No, can I control their opinion of me?
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: No, can I control my opinion of what they think?
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, right, I was like that makes total sense, right.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: So like, anyway, some of the strategies I've heard with that is like identify man.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: For some reason, I feel stressed right now.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, I feel stressed, got it Back that up.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Why, what happened?
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Right, I was late to work.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Or like this traffic happened, or I'm trying to do these things and I got negative comments on social media or something, right, that made me stressed.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Can I even control that anyway?
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I can't, right.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: But I can control step X, y and Z next.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Or I can control what my opinion if I put value and weight on what their opinion is, I can put, I can control that.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: So I can dictate that All of a sudden I'm like this is all.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: This doesn't even matter anyway, like it's, it's just a way better of managing.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: And here's where the hope circuit comes into that.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: So let's say you, you do something.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: You get criticized up one side and down the other.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: The minute you believe that this situation will pass, like so I'm stressed out, right now people are criticizing me, I don't care about their opinion anyway, but the minute you believe that this situation will pass, it's not going to last forever.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: There's instant relief in that.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: It's true.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: This is.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: This is not going to last If you start thinking no one's ever going to like me, I'm always going to get criticized, my career is over.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: One of the biggest questions I get is how do you deal with cancel culture?
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: You'll walk through it, you just walk through it.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Everything, everything passes.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Nothing ever stays the same.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: So when you, when you look at this with injuries, you look at this with challenges, you look at this with even like struggles and relationships, Everything is always in a constant state of change.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: It's like it's like the ocean it's moving all the time.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: This is not going to stay.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: So that won't stay like that forever.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: It won't stay like that 80 years from now.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Well, they remember probably won't write 20 or 10 years from now, mostly six months from now.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: It's going to pass Usually.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: It's going to pass.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: That's a that makes total sense to me.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: There's a theory that most humans do not emotionally develop past the seventh grade.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: So if you look at all the drama of seventh graders who likes who and then you kind of look at that through the mirror of whatever reality show, every reality show is just like that.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: All eight those shows and I can't stand it Cause I'll be the talk like in the community and just randomly having conversations and that is going on.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: And I'm like it sounds like you think you're on the housewife show right now.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Like, is this this episode of the bachelor?
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: It Like this is real life Okay, that's fake, by the way Like you think you're in that episode.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, and the reason why people get caught up in that is because when you feel something like no attention, I'm sorry, bad attention is better than none at all.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: So even if I'm creating drama or chaos, if you see me, it means that I matter, even if you're seeing me in a less than favorable light.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's just to to feel important, to feel valued to feel, just to feel like I've got a spot here and what's going on, Like if I'm just peaceful.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: A lot of times people associate peace with boring and not I don't matter.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: They need to feel something.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: It's also a distraction from maybe other painful things that they're not fully aware of.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to, I'm going to create drama over here.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Dirty up things, so I don't just leave.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't have to think about what's going on on the left.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to stir up drama on the right.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: And that's the subconscious thing Usually, usually Okay.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: So back to the, the hope circuit.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Right, it's like this will pass at some point.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Right, nothing lasts forever.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: And and 50 years won't matter anyway, other than the most important things, of course.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: If people aren't able to see that or visualize that or work through it, right, like you said, just walk through the cancel.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Right, just walk through.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Whatever Is that when depression comes in, as, unlike, I'm stuck.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Hopelessness Is that.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: What depression is Is like the I don't see the other end.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: It can be, yeah, and and depression can be two things.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: It can be situational, uh, and it can be, you know, just in our in our DNA a bit.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: But when it's situational depression, uh, usually it's part of the grief process.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: So grief process is interesting because it can be a really big one or it can be a small one.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: So if, if I put something out online that I'm really proud of and you know, you think about artists that release, release albums or movies that come out, there's huge hopes that you know people get what I'm putting out here.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: I put a lot into this and if it flops, it's devastating.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: Uh, so that grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance that depression is this is not how I wanted it to be.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: So, even in a small way, if I put something out online and it's met with some pushback that I did not expect, this is not what I saw happening.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: So now there's this anxiety of every time I try to put something out.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: That's the result, or I'm anxious about that result happening again.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Sure Interesting Um.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Back to that uh like walking through right the uh, the cancel or like where it seems to be a low point, right.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I was exposed to recently the um emotional cycle of change in the Valley of Despair and it was in that that philosophy, philosophy slash, entrepreneurial type of podcast where he was uh comparing like entrepreneurs who like want to like strive and do good things and stuff, and they're like you know, dreamers and visionaries, whatever, um, they see like just really cool opportunity and they're like, oh, look at this person.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Like they did X, y and Z, I could do that.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: They ask him a question Like, yeah, man, I'm doing this, this and this, like I could probably do that, right.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: And then I was like I'm doing that venture with um uninformed optimism.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden it's like really hard.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: And they're like, dude, this is hard.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, well, I didn't mention the other a hundred things that I got got me here and like it was actually really challenging.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: It's like five years and I liked it was like it was challenging all that stuff.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: I was like I had no idea, right.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: So then there's informed pessimism.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I was like holy crap, this is way harder than I thought I didn't know this.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: And then it goes even further, failing and not doing great.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: And then you've reached the Valley of Despair yes.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: And then they get there.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: It's like this sucks, there's no way, I'm not going to get you bet.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Like this is terrible.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: And then look over the other person and like, oh, they're doing that.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: This looks easy.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: They go back and then they start over again.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Uninformed optimism this is way harder than I thought it.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: No.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Unformed pessimism.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: And then Valley of Despair again.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Once they get there, they exit and they go do something else and they just live in those first three cycles where what you were saying was like, if you just push through that Valley of Despair, then you get into the informed optimism component, yes, and then you pass that sustainability and success.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Is that accurate?
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: All of this?
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: In my personal opinion, absolutely, because if we go with the theory of nothing ever stays the same, I am not setting up camp in the Valley of Despair, really, unless I choose to.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: True.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: I need a hard pill to swallow.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: That's a tough one.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: That also goes back to worshiping the volcano god of pain.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: If I'm just going to live in this Valley of Despair, I'm just.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: I'm all about the pain, yeah.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Right, why would?
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Why, I think people get like they get the support and attention if they are in the Valley of Despair all the time.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: It goes back to core belief.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: So, going back to addiction recovery, there are a lot of.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: The most dangerous part for somebody in sobriety is when they start doing well, because there is a core belief that I don't really deserve to do well and so they'll sabotage that not not everyone, but if that core belief is not flipped.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: So trauma always leads me to believe a lie about myself.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: That is not true.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: So if I have a trauma history that leads me to believe that I'm damaged or less than or never good enough, no matter what I do, when I start doing well, it challenges that core belief.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: So I don't deserve to be doing well, Right?
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: So is there an element of like?
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: If I do well, then the support will be removed.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: That's a big one.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: That's a big one because also, this is very common in pro athletes If you are the first superstar of a family to come out and make it in a pro league, there is an expectation that you bring everyone along with them.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of weight, that's a lot of pressure, so that really In what way?
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: like in financial health?
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: financial taking care of other people?
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I think it's is it NFL.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I think I read that they after after their NFL career ends, they are broke within two years, so something like that.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: So there's also there's a lot of jealousy that you get when you are the person that made it.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: So there is a feeling that if I really do well, there's a sneaky feeling of abandonment.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Like I'm, I'm either responsible for everyone or I'm leaving everyone and then I'm successful but I'm alone.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: So it gets like that spider web of emotions gets kind of complicated, interesting.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is really interesting.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: So I so, with success like that, the fear of, or the increased pressure, responsibility of, like now I have this whole group that I have to take with me, take care of them, and if I don't do good, then I'm failing everybody.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: A lot of times.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: yes, Gotcha Interesting.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Do you have you like with a lot of pro athletes and stuff?
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Have you noticed a lot of that?
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Is there certain types of personalities that take that on more than others?
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: A lot of it's family dynamics.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: So there's some personalities that take that on, but a lot of it's family dynamics, like what I have learned.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: That is my role in this family and that's a whole other subject.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: But that gets pretty complicated, too Interesting.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I believe that Is it possible to escape that type of like.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: this is my role to change that yeah, so it's very possible to change that, and it's you have to let people know.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: The rules of the game have shifted.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is no longer what it used to be.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: And of course the fear in doing that is I'm going to lose people or whatnot.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: But you know we work on a lot of times in therapy just how to phrase things and how to talk to people.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: Some people, it doesn't matter what you do, they're not going to hear you.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: So you know we don't have to get rid of them.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: But we may need to adjust the boundary lines a little bit where boundary setting can be hard.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Very.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: And scary.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: And very scary.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's six.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: There's six stages of change, and the very first one is when a person changes.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: The very first message they get back is please go back to how you were.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Nobody ever says that.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, interesting that's.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: That's very interesting.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: It makes total sense.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: You mentioned last time that there's some Enneagram types.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about the Enneagram a little bit right To just to clarify and let people know again the Enneagram was just a personality assessment tool, is that right?
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: And there's nine personality types and each one kind of correlates with each other.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: But they all have their own specific type of characteristics and where they react and the lens in which they perceive the world which dictates their actions.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Right, because perceptions and beliefs shape people's worlds.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Right, that is your world, is your perceptions and beliefs on things.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: So, anyway, it's just a way to analyze and assess that Correct, yes, okay, so so many Enneagram types are happier than other ones.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Some have the hope cycle easily activated compared to other ones.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: So the first thing about Enneagram that I really like in my opinion there's too much talk of diagnosis and there's not enough talk about personality types and character traits.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: So I think we've really lost that discussion just kind of in the mental and emotional health field, If a diagnosis is important, but not as important as your character traits and your personality type and what works for you.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: I need someone diagnosis, like a mental health diagnosis.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Like and we throw words around a lot, like you're anxious or you're you know you're being bipolar right now, like that's not really how it works.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: You're not being bipolar if we've got a lot of indecisiveness and there's some anxiety tied with that.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: So we throw we throw words around a lot that don't fit the situation.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: So what I like about the Enneagram is it gives a pattern and a framework that helps people understand different personality types.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: It's not like like a six, for example, is the loyalist, but they have a lot of fear associated with their personality type, in a state of unhealth, and it's good to understand that without labeling somebody as you have an anxiety disorder.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Might just be personality type.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Right, some normal character traits.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: So, going back to which ones are more positive, the sevens are known as being the most optimistic.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Blind optimism, as in like the one we were talking about before, of like this is fine, right, just be happy, and it's like, well, it's okay to be sad sometimes, right, or to be fearful.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting with sevens is being in a state of negative emotion is like having their hand on a hot stove, like they can't stand it.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: So the other thing I like about Enneagram is you have a person, a personality type, in a state of health normal range and then a state of unhealth, and so a seven, I think in a state of unhealth, is that that denial of like you're fine, like everything's fine, just everybody smile, we'll get through it.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Like we're fine In a state of health, a seven will be able to acknowledge like it's really just empathy, like this is a tough situation for you, like I, even if it's not rational, like even if, if the struggle is coming from an irrational source, that person is still struggling.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: So having empathy for that and then being able to work with them on problem solving so they don't have to feel alone in it.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: A six would be the other end of that spectrum which is like a.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: What other personality type would be on the opposite end of a seven?
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: So it depends I don't know if opposite is the right word You've got.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: So it goes back to state of health normal and then unhealth.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: So it depends on where a person is kind of on that spectrum.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Ones are the perfectionists.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: So that is, perfectionism is a fear driven kind of personality trait, Because if it's not perfect it's considered a failure.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: So ones are fantastic like organizers, but man are they hard on themselves.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: So in a state of unhealth, like you will give yourself consistent migraines if you don't come out of that.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Two's are the nurturers.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Three is a very positive character trait they're the performers, they're the ones that are goal around success.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, super driven.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: The achiever right.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: So they're looking at the top rung of the career ladder.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Gotcha With the volcano pain.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: God worship.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: I said that right, you did.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Are there any any of your times you that associate more often with that?
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Or like camping out in the valley to spare?
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know if there's a type as much as it is.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Four's are very interesting because they are the creative types, so they tend to have a bigger capacity for emotions.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: They can also tend, in a state of unhealth, to get a little bit manipulative because those emotions are hard to manage.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: They describe this in the book the Road Back to you.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: They describe kind of all the stuff, and what I like about that book is they tell stories associated with the personality traits.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: So it's not just a checklist Like you kind of get a sense of what that, what that person looks like in front of you.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: So I would not say it's a number as much as it is.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Where are you on the spectrum of health versus unhealth?
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Got it Interesting.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: So enforcing individualists.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Fives are the investigator and they're definitely more usually what introverted cerebral analytical.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Not social butterflies.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Usually not social butterflies.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Are they on the pessimism side or more optimistic, naturally, or just based on health and unhealth?
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: I see fives as being like I need this to go in a category.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: I need.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Like doesn't fit here and it needs to fit here.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: This doesn't make sense.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, Just like mind bomb.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, and if I can't figure out where it goes, I'm going to research it until until I can like categorize it categorize it in this little bento box.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Interesting, it's okay.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: And then sixes are the loyalists, and they're usually more fear driven.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: What makes them what called the loyalist, though?
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure I have to go back and look at that one.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Sixes are a little bit.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Sixes in a state of unhealth will almost put up with anything and that that can be kind of that can be kind of a problem, because you can be loyal to a fault.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: I see Got it Sevens are in the enthusiast.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: They're definitely happy.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Go lucky, optimism, everyone's fine, just be fine Like joy from inside out, that movie.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Joy from.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, I used to show that movie in rehabs all the time Hitting the feels.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: There's another one coming out by the same same creators.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: What?
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Which one?
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: What was it called?
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: They haven't made it yet, but it's getting ready to come out with the movie you just said Inside out, inside out.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, Gotcha.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: The first time I watched that movie was like maybe a couple weeks before my daughter was born, and I was like man, this is, this is hitting me in the feels, you know.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, so optimist seven is the enthusiast.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Optimistic eights are the challenger.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: How'd you describe?
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: that Eights I I really like eights.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: Eights are difficult personalities because they they can sometimes come off as rude, they can sometimes come off as jerks, but really they're kind of the people that'll go against the group think and they're not afraid to go against the group think and I kind of I kind of like that, because most people don't like conflict.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Eights thrive in conflict.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: So when you have, when you have a highly contentious situation, an eight will step up and be like here's what you're going to do, and I don't care if you like it or not.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: So it can be a really useful personality trait.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: The flip side of that is you have to learn your tact and you have to learn how to say things.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: You can't just spout.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, be more refined, yes, calling people out, but being more refined about it, or when, maybe not to.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: And then nine is the peacemaker, and they're usually, from what I've heard is like, or read, it's like they're like the middle child.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Usually they're the mediators.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: They want everything to be perfect, like, like, like a happy world, and when it's not, they get very uncomfortable.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, so nines tend to feel what other people are feeling.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Empaths.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Empaths, exactly so.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: If people are not happy, then I'm not happy, and this can go a little bit along with the twos, the nurturers as well, because there's there's a little bit of a codependent streak that can go with that if it's in a state of unhealth.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: But I need for people to be peaceful, because then I'm peaceful.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, because they'll otherwise take on their emotions.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, out of empathy.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, In a state of health.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: They're really good mediators, really good mediators.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: That makes sense.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: I can see that Interesting, do you, of those enneagram types and people that are going through challenging moments, right, and they reach the valley of despair.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: And we've definitely found or suggest and things we've read and you've talked about too just if you're able to push long enough and do something for long enough, you'll get through it, and also nothing.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Everything will last forever, so it'll change regardless.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: But if you can just push through long enough, you'll reach the other side of informed optimism and then success and sustainability.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Just kind of just hang out long and just make it right, just keep going.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Are there certain personality types in the enneagram that you think would be maybe set up more success for that?
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know seven, I'm going back to sevens.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know about certain types in the enneagram, but I do know that that is what like when you look at military, that exactly what you just described, that ability to hang on for a goal, is what we call grit, and the more grit you have, the more ability you have to go through uncomfortable emotions for the sake of a goal.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: So battling through that short term discomfort, what seems long term, but it'll.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: It's short term compared to a long term benefit.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: If you're able to push through that, so that's a grit.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: So if you look at what, what separates a Navy SEAL from everyone else is seven days, that's it.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: It's called hell week, yeah, and it is the most amount of pain that you can put a person through in seven days and the only ones left standing I mean you have.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: You have hundreds that apply every year.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: You've got seven or 10, the very, very small fraction that make it and all it is is pain tolerance.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: So if you look at even emotional pain tolerance, it that's everything like pain tolerance is everything for the sake of hanging on to what I want to accomplish.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, um, and you would describe that then the best word of that is grit to make it through that seven day hell week.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: So Angela Duckworth was famous for that.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: She comes from the positive psychology realm in a university of Pennsylvania which was started by Martin Seligman.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: She, her whole study, was done at West Point and she wanted to know, um what cadets made it through, cause they they have a really grueling um boot camp.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: It's the hardest boot camp and she wanted to know what was the difference between cadets who made it and the ones who didn't.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: It had nothing to do with intelligence, had nothing to do with athletic ability.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: She looked at everything and all it was was grip, and so she developed a grit scale Interesting.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: It's very short, it's very.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: It's in the book, it's very easy to take, but it looks at what areas you have more pain tolerance in and what areas you give up quickly.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Other interesting thing is with pain tolerance.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Um, in our field we hear that all the time they're like give my knee hurts, but I have a.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: I have.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: I have a very high pain tolerance, or like my back's been going on and you know me if I say it hurts.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I have a high pain tolerance, so you know it hurts Somebody else who's like weaker, they'd be on the floor crying, but because I have such a high pain tolerance like I'm been able to like pass.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: So not to burst anyone's bubble, but that is just ego talking 100%.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I, I duggery with that for sure.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Um, anybody has said that to me like I'm not making funny, but I mean it's like we're all in that boat.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Um, where does that come?
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: I would imagine hearing somebody say, if it was somebody else, they'd be on the floor crying.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: But because I'm so tough, I'm still pushing and I'm juggling everything else.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: I'm like there's something else underlying there.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: There has to be right.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: What is that usually?
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: My first question is why do you need for me to know that you're so tough, Right?
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Like why do you have to keep explaining this to me?
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: Uh, and the second is if you are not that tough, what does it lead you to believe about yourself?
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: So my toughness makes me special.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Um other people's, other people's weakness is I don't want to, I don't want to use the word gross or disgusting, but there's something very off-putting about weakness.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: So if if.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: I'm weak like those other people, then, uh, what does that say about me?
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Be that that bad category I'd be in that bad category.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Um, is there an element of them being like um, I'm expressing these things, I'm so tough and I've been juggling everything else and I've been doing this maybe a sense of like I'm not being valued or appreciated on other aspects of my life?
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Uh, I think, if you look at going back to family dynamics, there's always a savior in the family.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: So, uh, have you seen the movie incanto?
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: I have not yet.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: You recommended it.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: We haven't watched it yet.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: It's so good.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: So there's, there's, uh, the strong one, and she care, literally carries all the heavy stuff.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: Uh, everybody just gives her the heavy stuff to carry and she can, she has the superpower, strength, but eventually she starts breaking down because every human has a limit and when, when you're a strong person, you don't like to accept those limits, so I can handle anything.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: So it's a lot of ego.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: But it's usually also because someone has expected you to be the strong person, because we have recognized that somebody else can't handle ABC or D, so I have to handle it for them.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting Um the grit scale.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: That's really cool.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take that and see see any insights.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: It's who's it?
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: What's the?
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: It's a test online.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: You can get it online.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Uh, just just Google Angela Duckworth, she has a really.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she has a really good website.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Uh, all about grit Um, it's, she's really good.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Speaking on optimism, I heard something um on the on those lines of war prisoners and you know I'm talking about what I'm going to say like the ones that didn't make it, and they're in there for years like terrible situations.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: They're going to torture like prisoners of war.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: It's awful.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Of course, the ones that really didn't make it were the optimists, as in like yep, I can see it.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: Uh, holidays, by the holidays, we're going to be out of here.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Get guys, we're going to be out.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: And then it doesn't happen and they're crushed Like, oh hey, by by, like spring time, we're going to be on guys, like we're, we're going to make it, I know it, by spring I'm thinking optimistically, we got it, we're out of here Comes, and they're not there still, or they're still there, they don't make it.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Um, and so they're the ones that ended up not making it versus, like, I guess, more of the realists.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Is that accurate?
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: Like what?
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: So it's, it's, it's acceptance.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: So acceptance Okay, there you go, yeah.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: So when you have, when you yeah, the prisoner of war study was was really famous and very insightful, because you would think, you would think that optimism would, would help you in that situation, and it wasn't hopefulness and seeing the few like and it was really false hope.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Because how are you like?
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: Like you know, we'll only be here in two days and then they'll come get us.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: And what happened was?
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: It started this cycle of disappointment.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: So, remember, your body's wired to survive.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: So that is a chemical release of every time you set this imaginary goal for yourself that you will be out and that doesn't happen.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: There's this massive disappointment.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: And then I'm staring into the future of of unknown uncertainty.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: And yet, to remember, prisoners of war have no control.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: They are in there, you are a trapped.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: So the ones that accepted their fate of like probably going to die in here, but I'm going to make this as painless as possible within the control that I have, those are the ones that made it interesting.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: What was that study Like?
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: When was that?
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: study.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: That was, that was done.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: Uh, Vietnam after Vietnam.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: So like in the seventies.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I know they were.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: It started with Vietnam prisoners of war and I think just the interviews came out, I think like late seventies, eighties, Interesting.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: Wow, and that's obviously in the very extreme, terrible end.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, Um, but that makes that's interesting.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: So so a cycle of disappointment and then only seeing further like just continual disappointment.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: We're actually seeing this a lot now in the dating world.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: Uh, post pandemic dating a lot of app dating and online dating people are.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: One of the biggest reasons why they're lonely right now is because dating is such a mess and they it kind of tricks your mind.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: If I go on an app and I see like 10,000 people like a potentially match with, then there's a a feeling that I just have to find the right person.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: But what it doesn't warn you about is how much disappointment you're going to have to go through, how many times we're going to get ghosted, stood up, we're going to text, but he doesn't ever want to call.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: Like a constant cycle of disappointment to the point where I'm like why am I even here?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes total sense and even just absent, like the app dating and like the online dating in general, that causing that without even independent of COVID.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: And then I would imagine, like people that imagine themselves getting married and having kids by late 20s and now they're in their late 30s and they're still single, with all these disappointment opportunities that happened previous in that boat Is that accurate?
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I think, especially more so for women than for men.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: We kind of have a timetable of when we want things to happen.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: And when that's not going according to plan, we start to panic Freak out which makes sense.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: Because we are.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: We've got a clock, so if I want these things, it has to happen within this timeframe.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: So here's my plan, and when that plan is not going the way I think it is, then I start to feel out of control and if I can't control this, like my worst fear is going to happen.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, what do you?
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: That's not a dating podcast, but what do you recommend?
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: So this sounds kind of hopeless.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: It's like time's running out.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: I'm f'd.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly, and that's where people's brains go.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: So in a therapy situation we kind of look at what is working.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Like we've got so much focus and attention on these things you don't have.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: What do you have Like what is going well right now?
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: So humans are conditioned to focus on the negative.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit of evolutionary survival.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like if you get a job review from your boss, 99 things you did amazing.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: And there's that one thing that sticks in your head.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: And that's when you're going to bed at night you're like I can't believe it's, like that's what really plays in your mind.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: So people forget there's a lot of good things going on in their life and then you have to look at the value question of is your identity tied to your spouse and your kids?
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: Like who are you just on your own as a person and have you forgotten the stuff that you're good at?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Have you forgotten the stuff that maybe like goals you have just on your own and let's say that the timetable doesn't happen?
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: There's a ton of kids out there who need mentors and foster parents.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: Like there's options everywhere.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: You just have to find what's going to work for you.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I know something you said in the past is writing out goals or like here's things I am good at, right, or I am this cool affirmation right, yes, awesome, that can also just be like smoke right, just like cool.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: I am a charismatic superhero Great, you just made that up, but then later tying it up with what's the evidence.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: You have that support.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense too.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I am, because I've done X, y and Z and I am good at this stuff.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, so tying the evidence with it, is that what you'd recommend?
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: I tell people imagine you're in a court of law.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Usually people are their own prosecuting attorneys, like they will just beat themselves up left and right.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: They forget to bring the defense attorney into the room and attorneys always have evidence.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: It's what you can prove and not prove.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: So if I, if I allow the defense attorney to come into my brain, what evidence does he have that?
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: There are some things here that I'm doing pretty good.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally that makes sense and hopefully that can bring people through the valley of despair with all the goals and stuff, exactly.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: Exactly so.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: In the valley of despair you even have to ask yourself do I want to sit in this valley of despair?
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: And then you have to go back to why did I start this in the first place?
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: So, if I have purpose and meaning attached to what I'm doing, I can get through that valley of despair and hang on to the goal.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: If, if what I was looking for was maybe fame or an ego trip or fast money.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: I'm not getting fame or ego or fast money out of this.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try something else.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: So you got to go back to your why, why?
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: That's a very that.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: I could imagine that being a very fragile and brittle foundation to go into a venture of ego, fast money.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: And what was the third one?
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: you said Ego fast money and fame.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which goes back to ego.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: That makes total sense.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: Interesting, I'm going to apply this stuff for myself too.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Totally, I'm taking notes, awesome.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks for coming in.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll have to get round three going.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: Our plan just to heads up people we're trying to get a seminar in our clinic at athlete registration Co for have Mary to come in and do like a sports psychology for youth athletes and how to navigate that, and also parents as it relates to the kids too, correct, yes, and strategies on mental health and psychology as it relates to those youth athletes and active people.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: But anyways, we'll have round three, we'll have it again Seminar coming up.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: So stay tuned.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming in and we'll catch y'all next time.