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241. The Porn Addict Who Became a Monk · Radically Genuine

• Dr. Roger McFillin (00:03.18) Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. I'm Dr. Roger McFillin. My guest today is one of the stranger resumes I've come across in a while. Jeremy Lip Lipkowitz was several years into a PhD at Duke genetics, genomics, systems, biology. He was studying the code that supposedly explains what a human being is. And he left. Flew to Myanmar and became a Buddhist monk, fully ordained, you know, shaved head, robes, the whole thing. And I'm always fascinated by what prompted such abrupt change in a person's life. Transformational experiences. Nobody walks away from a doctor and a duke because things are going great. In his case, he was quietly suffering. He had a sexual compulsion, he struggled to overcome. When he was privately fighting for years while everything on the outside looked so pristine. And like so many other men, the temptation of pornography was taking control of his life. Nothing worked. So eventually he stopped trying to fix himself from the outside and went and sat with his own mind for a long time. That is the part I find fascinating. He overcame this compulsion, this addiction. And there was a transformational aspect. One in which no expert handled him handed him a protocol or a drug. He went inward, which is the one direction almost nobody recommends anymore. What he experienced in that state should interest all of us. We've never had more professional help available. And more people quietly falling apart. Every framework you can name will tell you what is wrong with you and try to sell you the fix. And almost none of them will say the simple thing, which is that you already have access to the thing you are looking for that you are searching for. Because what modern life actually is, it is the most sophisticated avoidance and distraction machine ever built. Cut off from your Dr. Roger McFillin (02:25.431) Creator, infinite content, infinite novelty, infinite reasons never to be alone with yourself, your mind, your emotions. And then the moment you get still and you attempt this, it can get very loud. And there is always something within arm's reach to make the stillness go away. Jeremy walked on. Out of that deliberately, and what he found on the other side, I don't think is a technique. I think it's a different relationship with his own self. And he spent the last decade teaching other men to do the same. No religion required, no doctrine, no protocol. Thousands of guys at this point. So I have many questions. I want to know what he learned about his own mind. I want to know about the monastery. I want to know about what he was studying and why he went in that direction. And I want to know what he thinks is actually underneath some of these horrific self-destructive patterns that we can fall into in our lives. And I want to know what was waiting for him when he found silence. Jeremy, thanks for doing this. Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. Jeremy (03:38.186) Brother, that was a great framing, a a great introduction. I'm excited to dive in. Dr. Roger McFillin (03:43.681) Well thank you. Take us back to, you know, that version of you at Duke. Jeremy (03:49.675) So, you know, the timeline is actually a little bit off there. When I was struggling with porn, it was actually when I was in undergrad at the University of California at Davis. So I was still studying genetics and genomics. but when I was really in the depths of my addiction to pornography, it was while I was an undergrad. and it was just before I went to grad school that I started to dive into meditation, Buddhist philosophy. ended up going to grad school later on after I discovered this and started my recovery journey. but it was really back when I was in undergrad that I started to notice how I was addicted to not just pornography, but all kinds of pleasant experiences, addicted to success and validation, addicted to partying and drinking and drugs and video games, and basically anything that felt good and that I could use as a way to manipulate my emotions and and push the negativity away. so that version of me was someone who, as you kind of framed in the introduction, was constantly looking on the outside, looking for my salvation, looking for the thing that would fix my life and thinking it was always something outside of myself. It was a new girlfriend or a better grade in this class or a new experience somewhere. And never actually looked within. Dr. Roger McFillin (05:13.23) Mm-hmm. Yeah, ample opportunities exist to try to get that quick escape or that quick pleasure. What were some of the consequences of that for you? Jeremy (05:24.532) The biggest consequence is just never being happy. I mean, having all of these things. And I was quite good at it. You know, I was a very, I was a very smart kid, very bright kid, top of my class, very good at achieving the things that I wanted to achieve. And so I kept achieving these things that I set out to achieve. I kept getting the good grades and getting the hot girlfriend, becoming captain of a sports team, all the things that I thought would bring me happiness. And Dr. Roger McFillin (05:27.416) Mm. Jeremy (05:54.069) They would maybe make me feel good for a few seconds, maybe a day at most, and then it would quickly be, okay, what's next? And there was this ever present feeling of dissatisfaction, of not feeling like anything was enough, and not feeling like I was enough. And I think this is what a lot of people can resonate with. It's just this feeling like nothing ever feels quite good enough, and you just need something a little bit more. that nothing ever truly satisfies and you're always hungry for for something more or better or new or different. And it's a it's quite a miserable way to live your life, particularly when you have so much to be grateful for. Dr. Roger McFillin (06:39.33) Help us understand this concept of porn addiction. It's somewhat controversial using the word addiction in this context, but I don't know if people fully understand the degree in which it can control a person. what does it look like in actual you know, kind of a day-to-day use of this in not only your personal experience, but in the countless people you've tried to help? Jeremy (07:07.668) Yeah. I I feel like it used to be more controversial to use the word addiction around porn. And more and more every year that goes by it's becoming more and more obvious to everyone that this is a a highly addictive substance and people can really lose their lives to it. you know, sometimes actually lose their lives, end up in in prison or or worse, but sometimes just lose their their soul to it. I mean, lose their relationships, lose their sense of integrity. And more and more people realize this is a real thing and and it's quite addictive. So I think it's becoming less controversial. people understand now that behavioral addictions are also addictions. You can get it addicted to shopping, to gambling, to junk food in the same way that you might get addicted to to cocaine or to heroin or to alcohol. in terms of what it looks like, you know, it's this constant need for more stimulation and more Stimulation, you know, through sexual media. And one of the big issues with it is because this topic of porn and sexuality is such a a shameful, sensitive topic, it ends up being something that many guys hide from the rest of the world. It's something that they keep in secret that they do you know in isolation and they don't tell anyone, particularly their partners. And it can lead to a lot of deceptive behavior, keeping secrets from your partner. hiding and lying and that causes a lot of betrayal in relationships. That being said, you know, it it causes a lot of harm for people in relationships, but even for the guys who are single, and this was my case. When I was an undergrad, I noticed the consequences of porn addiction, even though I was single at the time. There are many subtle consequences, subtle harms of too much porn that many guys don't notice until it's too late. So one of the issues with porn is that some of the consequences build up over a long period of time in a very subtle way. So it's not like heroin or something where you might notice the effects in a strong way. You know, you might not feel the hangover the next morning. But if you keep engaging in that behavior for a year or five years or ten years, it can have quite profound imp impacts on your sense of self-worth, your happiness, your ability to be satisfied in relationships. So a lot of different ways it can impact your life. Dr. Roger McFillin (09:34.596) You used the word shame, which is interesting because it feels like a lot of what drives people to turn to any of these escape mechanisms, porn included, is this underlying like sense of unworthiness, inadequateness, shame, maybe experiences in their life that created shame. And then you enter into a behavior that seems to compound it. What type of shame were you dealing with at that particular time, given you were having, you know, so much success in areas of your your life that, you know, kind kind of modern culture would, you know, deem to be of of the the highest good, right? Like you are performing so well in academics and sports and in finding girls. Where was your shame? Jeremy (10:18.676) You know, it's so interesting. I I think some of the people who on the outside seem the most successful or seem like they have it all together, often carry some of the most intense self-judgment and self-criticism and and or feel, you know, the highest levels of insecurity and shame. And the outward success can sometimes be a way to mask or to to medicate and to deal with that underlying sense of not feeling good enough. It's a response to not feeling good enough that they feel they need to go above and beyond and prove their worth. And so for many people who have this external success in world, you know, in business, in relationship, in life, sometimes there is a deep underlying sense of shame or inherent unworthiness. And it's important to just take a moment to look at what shame is. You know, shame is this core belief. That says that there is something inherently wrong with you. And if people knew the truth about you, they would run away or they would scream or they would kick you out of the tribe. So there's this core belief deep down that if people knew who you really were, they wouldn't love you. That there is something fundamentally broken or flawed about you. And you have to keep those flaws hidden from people so that they don't find out the truth of who you really are. That's what shame. secretly kind of whispers into our ear when when we're experiencing it. And it's it's such a devastating thing to experience. And it just causes so much self-sabotage. It causes so much chaos in life because you feel like you can't be seen. And so any problems that you do have, you don't want to actually seek support. You want to paint a picture that there isn't a problem and there's nothing that you need to address. And so it causes A lot of people to isolate and hide and not get the support that they need. And I had a lot of that growing up. You know, I I think I had a lot of for whatever reason, whether it was through my upbringing, through society, I had a lot of beliefs that I wasn't good in some way. I was teased as a as a young boy for being slightly chubby. So I had some core, you know, childhood experiences of being being teased for being fat. Jeremy (12:40.362) There's another experience that many young boys can relate to, which is you get caught watching porn or masturbating or looking at something when you're a young boy, eight, nine, ten years old. Your mom walks in and screams and says, What are you doing? And that's a very formative experience. You know, you learn in that moment something is wrong with this, something is wrong with my sexuality. When I'm engaged in a sexual behavior. It's causes people I love to scream and run away and yell at me. And so they learn, and I learned from a very young age that my sexual desire was something wrong, was something to be shamed. And that didn't stop the behavior. It just made me hide it because it felt too good to stop. You know, it was such a a rich drug for dopamine and excitement and stimulation. And it was so reliable and so pleasurable. I didn't want stop doing it. I just had to hide it from everyone. And so these were, you know, some of the formative experiences that I, along with many other young men, have, you know, that teaches them that there's something wrong with them. Dr. Roger McFillin (13:50.584) There tends to be somewhat of an addiction cycle or pattern that is becomes consistent with people, meaning that there is some prompting event, something that triggers it internally. it could be an external prompting event, it could be something within the mind or an emotion that increases the likelihood that the person's going to go to that behavior. And then they engage in the behavior and it serves a function. And there's a shift or a change, right? That high that occurs. And then there after that is a a consequence to that, which is often a compounding of the emotions that the person was trying to escape from anyway. And then again it starts the whole cycle again to try to try to escape, you know, that that those feelings. I wonder if you were are were you aware of what was prompting your porn behavior and are you seeing any consistencies with other men about like w what was happening to trigger this, whether it's external or whether it's internal. Jeremy (15:04.266) I had zero clue. I was completely oblivious and clueless. It was to think that I was using porn as a coping mechanism or as a way to deal with my emotions was so foreign to me. You know, it took me another 10 years to actually start to see what was actually happening. when I was engaged in it, I I didn't even realize it was a problem. And this is something I, you know, I brought up earlier that a lot of the consequences of, you know, watching too much porn. Because the consequences are so subtle and so far downstream, a lot of guys don't realize that there are any consequences to it. They think, what's the big deal? It's just this has no relationship to the depression I'm feeling, to the relationship dissatisfaction. It has no relationship to, you know, all the kind of emotions, the shame that I'm feeling. This is just disconnected. And so it takes some pretty nuanced self-awareness to start to see. That they are related. That being said, I do think there because there's a lot more conversation around this topic these days, there's a lot more awareness of what porn does to the brain and it just, you know, emotional intelligence and understanding how emotions show up. I think a lot more guys do understand that they're using porn as a way to escape emotions, that they're using it as a way to deal with boredom or loneliness or stress. So more and more I do see. Other guys, particularly, you know, these days, being more aware of it. But I was totally clueless. I I had no idea. Dr. Roger McFillin (16:41.935) Did you try to stop before you turned to meditation and other forms? How did you try to stop at that time? Jeremy (16:50.74) What's quite interesting is I didn't I wouldn't say that I had a a concerted effort in trying to stop it. It wasn't until I started to learn about mindfulness and meditation and Buddhist philosophy that was the eye-opener for me to even see that porn was a problem, that it was actually impacting my life. Cause I started to learn about the concept of of neuroplasticity, of understanding how You know, neurons that fire together, wire together. I started to understand that lust and craving were states of suffering in and of themselves, that a state of lusting after something you don't have, or craving after something you don't have, that's not a state of abundance or fulfillment or or gratitude. It's a state of suffering itself. And so it was it was through my exploration of Buddhist philosophy and meditation and mindfulness. That I started to make all the connections and realize that my use of porn was the thing that was keeping me in a state of suffering. That it was actually exacerbating the subtle discontent that I was feeling everywhere. I started to realize it was from engaging constantly in viewing porn. So I hadn't really tried to stop before I started to discover porn. I just started to see. before I discovered Buddhist philosophy, but I started to see that there were certain ways that my mind was enslaved by lust and I realized that that was a problem. Dr. Roger McFillin (18:24.931) So, what was it initially like when you started turning to mindfulness and meditation? What were you experiencing? Jeremy (18:33.652) The there was one event that prompted the whole thing. I you know, I remember I was a student at UC Davis at the time. I think I had just graduated, but I was still at UC Davis doing research in a laboratory. And I remember just walking down the street and and seeing these college girls walking in front of me and just being consumed by this feeling of of lust and craving and objectification. And it made me feel this big pit inside my stomach, this feeling black hole of emptiness that I felt like I needed to fill. And it was that moment where I realized that this constant lusting and craving and and sexual longing was causing me to live in a state of dissatisfaction. And so that started to, you know, get me interested in how to break free from it. And I ended up finding this book on Buddhist philosophy that was a blend of Buddhist philosophy and what and Western science. It was a book called Happiness by Mathieu Ricard, who has a background in the sciences and ended up becoming a Tibetan monk. So he really blended the two disciplines together of understanding modern science with Eastern wisdom. And that started to give me a framework for how to work with my mind and how to actually cultivate qualities that I wanted in my life, things like inner peace and contentment and compassion and gratitude. and I had the amazing fortune of being able to travel to India at that time. I ended up starting to go on these silent meditation retreats where I really learned how to practice mindfulness in a very intensive way. So going on a a silent retreat for 10 days, no reading or writing, no talking, you're not even really making eye contact with the other participants. You're just really spending that time engaged in awareness and meditation. And that started to help me see that everything that I was doing in my life, every moment was an opportunity to either deepen states of suffering or to cultivate states of awakening and freedom and contentment and inner well being. So that was a quite a groundbreaking experience for me, starting to realize that I had access to those tools. Dr. Roger McFillin (20:57.646) I think we have a crisis of meaning and disconnection in Western societies right now. And in my clinical work, I have observed people who have a difficult time sitting for five to 10 minutes with their own inner thoughts and emotions, let alone 10 days in silence. Can you share with us the best that you can what that experience is like to be silent for 10 days in a row? What happens within you? Jeremy (21:27.484) It's it's miserable. It's absolutely horrible. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it and say that, it's the most blissful experience in the world. It is a very unpleasant experience to sit with yourself. At least it's unpleasant at first. And and that's a really important part to this is understanding that one of the reasons that our society has gotten the way it is is that we have such a lack of an ability to be with anything that's unpleasant. Any unpleasant emotion that comes up, boredom, loneliness, insecurity, you remember a conversation that you had that didn't go the way you wanted, you're almost itching to get out of your skin, this feeling of I have to escape this. I I don't want to feel this unpleasant experience right now. And so we live in a society where there are so many avenues to get that hit of dopamine, that stimulation. You reach for your phone, check your email. You know, check social media. You grab some junk food, eat some snacks, turn on the television, go to the bar, have a drink with a friend. Basically, we do everything we can to avoid any amount of unpleasant emotions. And what's fascinating is that on a retreat, the task is to be with what's happening, whether it's pleasant or unpleasant, to not run away from it if it's unpleasant. And If it's pleasant to not try to grasp onto it or hold onto it, but just to let things be as they are, pleasant or unpleasant. And in doing that, you realize that there is a deeper peace to be had when you can allow unpleasant emotions to just arise and pass through you. But it's a it's a muscle that you need to train to learn how to be with the experience of sadness or be with the experience of boredom. And just let it be an unpleasant experience without needing to push it away or solve it in some way or fix it. But just to say, okay, there's some sadness passing through me. there's some stress, there's some anxiety here. Okay, that's all right. Learning how to be with that is one of the core skills of meditation, something we call equanimity, this ability to be with what's unpleasant without running away from it or pushing it away. And it's Jeremy (23:49.514) Challenging as hell, but it's one of the most useful and rewarding things you can cultivate in your life. Dr. Roger McFillin (23:57.915) Just curious, given the chronic disease epidemic that exists in Western cultures right now, how really physically unwell people are. Have you ever thought about root causes of disease from an energy perspective? So when you're talking about one's ability to allow emotional states and unpleasant thoughts to move freely, It all it quickly brings up to me the damaging effect of like suppression, escape avoidance mechanisms, and the blocking of that energy, which I think puts us in a state of dis ease. Have you ever considered that we have the paradigm wrong, especially from a guy who studied the the materialist version of the human being from a genetics perspective. Like it's all it's often presented to us that you are a a victim to your own genetics, that you can never overcome your own genetics. I wanna get your take on that. Jeremy (25:02.302) Yeah, I mean, we know now so much more about the mind-body connection. And it's not, you know, it's not this simplistic kind of you know, us being the victims to the potato chip industry. There's so much more that goes on underneath the surface in terms of how our emotions impact our physiology and vice versa, how our physiology impacts our emotions. I mean, we know that. Doing some deep breathing or getting a good session of of intense exercise has profound impacts on your mental health and well being. And vice versa as well. You know, if you're suppressing emotions, if you keep pushing away sadness or suppressing sadness or grief, that's going to manifest in different disease states of the body as well. I mean, we it's this is not controversial anymore. Again, it used to be controversial. People think you were a hippie. If you said that, but now it's quite understood. And we even know some of the mechanisms of it. We know that heightened cortisol, you know, increases how much fat you put away. all kinds of things that we're starting to understand from a mechanistic lens as well. but yeah, there there's so much to understanding the mind that can benefit your life. If people took the time to slow down and examine what was going on and realize, So much of our life is us being in prisons of our own making, mental prisons of, you know, not wanting to be with the emotions that are coming up. And so we create these self-imposed pris prisons that we have the keys to if we know how to access it, to be liberated. I mean, there's so much in in the Buddhist philosophy system that I love, like the words that they use, like liberation is the main thrust of Buddhism. Personal liberation, to be liberated or to have freedom from these mental defilements and mental prisons. It's not some cosmic thing where you have to, you know, believe in some deity or or, you know, go somewhere. It's about liberating yourself from your own mental prisons and living in a more skillful way, living in a more wholesome way. So there's so much beauty to be had if you can explore the inner workings of your mind. Dr. Roger McFillin (27:27.44) So at at some point you decided just to abandon your previous life goals and purpose. Yeah, I mean, you're in a PhD program. How? how did you come to that decision in your life to make such a drastic change and study to become a monk? Jeremy (27:52.085) Yeah, when I made the decision to to leave the sciences, to leave my PhD program, I I had already been, you know, free from porn at at that time for maybe five or six years. So I had already discovered my porn addiction, I had already gotten on the path of of practicing meditation and diving deep into these silent retreats. So even before I went to grad school, I started doing these silent meditation retreats and it had a really profound impact on on my life. it it just became one of the most important things in my life. I was doing my PhD work kind of on the side while the main thing I was doing was meditating and helping others, teaching others how to meditate as well. So I was teaching meditation while I was in grad school, teaching to undergrads and other graduate students. And I did that for about four years, four and a half years, and I just slowly started to realize that I felt so much more meaning and purpose. In teaching people about meditation, teaching people about their minds, how to live in a more skillful way, than I did about the science that I was doing. And I realized when I saw my future, I didn't want to be a scientist because most of my people that I was supposed to look up to, you know, the professors that I was supposed to be looking up to, and the, you know, the postdocs in my lab, they were all quite miserable. They were all living in these prisons in their minds of of ego and and not feeling good enough and all kinds of insecurities and anxieties and worries. And they weren't free, liberated people who had a sense of inner balance. They weren't grounded people. And I realized that if I stayed on that trajectory and just tried to become a professor, it wasn't gonna be the life that I wanted. And I could see an alternative of You know, the people that I actually looked up to, these meditation masters and spiritual teachers who might not have had a lot of external success, you know, they might not be billionaires or have all the accolades, but they had this deep groundedness to them. They had a deep sense of inner cultivation. And I realized that what was more important to me than the external validation was a life of internal freedom in and inner fulfillment. Jeremy (30:14.376) And so I just realized that I wanted to spend the rest of my life helping people understand their minds and live better lives. And so I decided to leave my PhD program after four and a half years. And I didn't know what I was gonna do. I ended up, you know, first starting a tea company with the idea to open up a kind of a meditation space, tea house. but eventually ended up traveling to Thailand and teaching mindfulness there, and then started teaching meditation at retreats. And then that's that's where it all began. Dr. Roger McFillin (30:49.745) Curious to know what your inner circle thought of that decision. we haven't talked a lot about your family or if you were in a relationship or anything like that, friends. How did they respond? Jeremy (31:02.58) The the interesting thing is so I my mom is an academic. she was a a research professor at UC Berkeley. And in some ways there was a little bit of a feeling of I need to follow in my mom's footsteps and become a tenured professor at a good institution. And and it wasn't from a place of you know, it wasn't one of these things where your parents says you have to be a lawyer and you do it begrudgingly. I I loved the science. You know, I loved academia and science. And I still, you know, have a lot of love for science. so that you know, there was a little bit of of letting her down. But what was really interesting is when I told her and I told all my friends, everyone totally understood it. You know, they realized that academia was a pretty toxic place. That it wasn't you know, a place where people were really happy and living happy lives. It was a place where there was a lot of stress and anxiety and Publisher Parish and all all this kind of just kind of misery in the academic circle. And they could see that I was much happier, you know, following my passion of of helping people. And at the time it had nothing to do with porn addiction. That came much later when I I came full circle. At the time it was just teaching people about mindfulness in a very secular way. Because that was also something I was very passionate about. I was a very secular person, had a background in science and reason and rationality. And it was such it was so helpful for me to realize that Buddhist philosophy had nothing to do with religion, had nothing to do with beliefs or dogma, that it was a way of training your mind and living in a in a healthier way. And so I became very passionate about teaching people a secular approach to to Buddhism, to to mindfulness. And you didn't have to adopt any religion. You could get the benefit of it just as you were. Dr. Roger McFillin (32:58.652) So tell us what it's like to become a monk. What does the process look like to attain that? Jeremy (33:07.176) My time as a monk was a kind of a natural outpouring of just me continuing to do the work that I had been doing for for a decade at that point, which was going on retreat was a very important part of my practice. You know, going on one of these silent retreats. I would go on one about once a year, sometimes a little more frequently than that. And there was this one retreat that I had the opportunity to go on. It was a month-long silent retreat in Myanmar with one of my teachers. And It was at a monastery in Myanmar and at that retreat you had the opportunity to to ordain as a monk if you wanted to, because we would be at the monastery, you know, engaging in all the same routines as the monastics there. And so I took the opportunity to ordain then, you know, what's interesting is in the in the Theravada tradition of Buddhism, temporary ordinations are much more common. In many other religious traditions, when you ordain as a monastic, it's meant to be kind of a lifelong commitment in many other religions and and even in some of the kind of sects of of Buddhism, it's meant to be a lifelong commitment. But particularly in Thailand and Myanmar, temporary ordinations are seen as kind of a rite of passage for young men. So many young men will ordain for for a few weeks, a few months, and it's seen to just be a really valuable time to spend some time in the monastery living as a monk. And so that was my experience. It wasn't anything, you know, like a long, you know, 10 year stint as a monk. It was a a month long silent retreat that I was on that I got to also live as a monk. so it wasn't really any different than any of the other silent retreats that I went on. but that was where the main work of it was is going on those silent Fapassana retreats. Dr. Roger McFillin (35:03.762) I'm in this interesting stage in my life where I'm deeply called and somewhat obsessed in seeking out universal truths beyond the dogma of institutional religion. I'm fascinated with understanding what underlies teachings. and communities that have fostered a sense of interconnectedness, peace, love, compassion, and incredible creation. And I find myself in Gnostic texts, reading about the Egyptian mystery schools, Hermetic teaching, early Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, the Kabbalah. You know, these range of Ancient texts with profound wisdom. And I'm finding some similarities, commonalities. And I want to get your sense on one of them, which is that ultimately consciousness is what influences our perception of reality, that we are powerful creators, and we contribute to a collective field. And I'm curious to know to what extent maybe you have ventured into this area of understanding that you are much more powerful than what we have been taught to believe, that there is a true nature to us in alignment with this creative energy, and that we can influence matter itself and shift the course of humanity if we're all able to come together and apply some of these principles. Jeremy (36:52.51) That's a deep, deep topic. I would say, you know, just to be totally candid, my exploration of those topics comes much more from my my use and exploration with with psychedelics. and I don't see them as as distinct or or separate or non-overlapping. I think they both my my interest in Buddhist philosophy and Buddhist meditation practices and my use of of psychedelics and all kinds of different plant medicines and and different things combined together and help inform each other. but some of those deeper, more mystical questions, I definitely explore more through the lens of plant medicines and psychedelics. And I don't have any strong answers. I think it's a big, open, beautiful place to investigate. what I will say is that my my grounding in different kinds of meditative techniques and tools were such an aid and such a benefit when I went into those mystical questions, when I went into those psychedelic experiences, having some of the tools that I learned in the monastery around, you know, for example, the tool of loving kindness and compassion as a as a tool of the mind to send compassion to whatever dark energy you you come across in some of these investigations of the depths of consciousness were really valuable. And so I I really love bringing them together, you know, using mindfulness, using compassion, using insight and clear seeing and discernment to ask some of these deeper questions of who am I and who are we and what is consciousness and What is love and what is the universe? but I don't have any firm answers for these more mystical questions. I just have questions. Dr. Roger McFillin (39:00.71) Yeah, I think that may be part of the mystery and the questions that we have, that inner desire of seeking out truth, I think is part of the human experience and why we may be here. I've followed a similar path with the use of plant medicines, psilocybin in particular, and I found it powerful. in seeking out and receiving information as well as direction on a on a path to be able to attain more wisdom. I'm curious to know maybe what your experiences have been and what are some knowings that you know you've received from that journey. Jeremy (39:43.408) man. These are great questions, For for anyone who's done any kind of psychedelic, whether it's psilocybin or LSD or ayahuasca or any of these things, I mean, you have so many deep insights. and some of them stay with you for a lifetime, and some of them are very subtle and some of them are very profound. oftentimes it comes back to just the importance of love for me and the importance of compassion. And you know, I I tend to not be Too deep of a thinker, I guess. You know, sometimes I I am, but sometimes I I you know, I again going back to the Buddha's thing, one of the things that somebody asked the Buddha, you know, what is the origin of the universe and where do we all come from? And, you know, who created this all? And the Buddha had this great answer. He said, I teach one thing and one thing only suffering and the end of suffering. He's like, I don't really care where it all came from, I don't know where it came from. it's not what I'm here to do. And in some ways, I love that approach for me personally. I think it aligns more with my personality that I don't really know the answers to these deep questions. And to some extent, it doesn't it doesn't matter as much to me as how are we showing up in the world and how are we supporting the people that need support? And are we making the world a better place? And those are the questions that I really like to answer and that I like to spend my time focused on is are you know, are you bringing more love into the world? Are you causing harm? Are you serving those in need? so those are the the questions that I like to spend my time on these days. Dr. Roger McFillin (41:36.412) Well, I think those are critical questions and they're part of the answer. You know, one of the things in the Christian Bible is there's, you know, a couple terms or words or phrases that seem to be repeatedly re repeated quite consistently. One of them is fear not, and others are around the concept of love, you know, love thy neighbor as yourself. And I think what we're actually receiving from that is in in in Internal force of energy, a frequency that we're dialing into. When we are in a state of love, and it's more than just the sentiment that's pushed on American culture, it's not a Hallmark card, it's not a, you know, a fleeting feeling that comes. It's an inner state, which I see now more to be what heaven is. And when you're in that inner state, you're actually dialing in. to like an energetic frequency that allows you to be connected to people around you, to receive infinite wisdom, to serve. It's an energy. And I think that energy is how I see God. It's a force and it's a force of all creation. While fear on the other end, which is more than just being scared of something, it's a lower state of energy that is certainly part of this three-dimensional world that we're in. And it is a root cause, or an influence and a consequence of division and hate and separation. And to me, that is the defining qualities of heaven and hell. we've been conditioned to believe that you have this one life, and depending on how you devote yourself to being sin free and devoting yourself to a punitive God determines your afterlife into a Place of heaven or hell, when people are, I think are missing the point, it's an inner state. You can cultivate this state of heaven, or you can cultivate a state of hell. And so becoming more compassionate, more loving, is in my opinion, the pathway to heaven on earth. Jeremy (44:01.44) I would wholeheartedly agree. You know, I think that's it very much aligns with my own views and and and I think the views of of Buddhist philosophy, which I'm a big fan of, is understanding that we, and this kind of gets to your question earlier, but we create our perception of reality through the lens of our mind. And that is our existence, that is our reality, how we perceive things and how we relate to things. And You can either be living in a hell realm if everything you see is something you judge or something you hate or something you, you know, craving after. Like the the lens that you see through creates your reality. And you can either be living in a hell realm where everything is miserable and everything is an other and all just negativity everywhere you look. Or depending on the lens that you're looking through, you know, are you seeing through the eyes of interconnectedness and interbeing and that we're all one. Seeing through the lens of here is a person who's suffering and needs compassion and support. Through the lens of gratitude, of wow, how blessed am I to have a roof over my head and have food on my table. I mean, there's so many, so many different ways to be in relationship with the same thing. And depending on how you're in relationship to what is already here determines your experience of reality. And it will either be a heavenly experience or a hellish experience. So yeah, it's important stuff to to look at. I think people don't realize how how important their relationship to what's happening is. People think it's all in the external thing. Do I have the latest iPhone or not? Did I get this much money in my bank account? Do I have whatever? And they think they put so much emphasis and importance on the external and don't realize that the Dr. Roger McFillin (45:36.37) Yeah and I I Jeremy (46:00.446) The relationship to the thing is infinitely more important. Your sense of gratitude. Two people can be seated in front of a piece of chocolate cake, and somebody might say this isn't organic cocoa and it wasn't crafted in the the way that I like, and they didn't serve it on the finest porcelain plate, and it can just be filled with negativity. And another person who hasn't eaten in a week, who has been starving and, you know, and is hungry, can look at that piece of chocolate cake and say, and cry with joy of how blessed am I to have this food in front of me. And it's the same piece of cake. And it's just your relationship to these things is so important. We forget that. Dr. Roger McFillin (46:45.724) Yeah, so true. where mindfulness and gratitude become so powerfully important, right? It's cultivating this state of being fully in the moment, even with an awed wonderment. because even right now, as I I sit with you, I have the ability to walk up from this chair and walk around my life. I have this healthy body to do so. And There are people who are truly, truly suffering in their own pain and their own hell, who have the same ability, but their mind never cultivates just a gratitude for that freedom. But yet, if they were to lose their ability to walk, what they would do to be able to time travel and go back and to be ex and experience that freedom. It would be heavenly. it would be overwhelming to them. But we take these things for granted, and our mind has a way of then focusing on what we do not have. And that creates this emptiness, and that we're always seeking to try to fulfill that emptiness in in our hearts and our in our in our you know, just entire being. And that's where you see this crisis, I think, of meaning and suffering. Jeremy (48:01.536) Mm. Dr. Roger McFillin (48:13.587) In Western culture is because they've grown up in this culture of materialism and Hollywood and entertainment and indoctrination into what success is in corporate America. And ultimately, you're gonna come to the same conclusion that you came to, and many others have, is that's not the path. That is not why our souls have incarnated into this body. It's not to serve a corporation. It's not to, you know, work as hard as you can to retire when you're 65 or now it's 70 or 75. It's certainly not in the cultivation of as many golden coins as you can or building your bank account or your retirement account. None of that is going to provide any sense of satisfaction. and If you are in the pursuit of knowledge, it's generally not occurring through American academia, right? That even becomes serving its own other master, right? Through tenure and publications and journals that are often have their own agenda. And so we we go through this crisis, and then you have all these aspects of distraction: Netflix, phone, social media, whatever it may be, other new. religious ideas that aren't religion. They're their own religions. they're just new ways of getting to think about the self, whether that's the oppressor and the the victim narrative that, you know, is so enticing to human beings. And we label it a mental health crisis. And then we medicalize it. And You fall right back into the same cycle where you externalize it. Like someone else is going to escape, help you escape from the pain. It's something genetic. It's it's biological, it's medical. And now people are entrapped into that same cycle and system where now they're just drugging their own existence. And we have all these labels that we throw on top of these challenges with our mind, and they can move from depression and mood. Dr. Roger McFillin (50:31.187) To disconnection from real supposed reality, delusions, addictions, eating disorders, and they all can be traced back to exactly what you were discussing. It's your relationship to your own mind, your own understanding of self, and then how you relate to what you think and feel and to what you Create about yourself and these identities now, these false identities, where people are attaching to a psychiatric condition or a mental illness. I have ADHD, I am a depressed person, I am bipolar. It's another form of slavery. It's mental enslavement into this new indoctrination of who you are. And we've lost that spiritual connection. Which makes life grand and awe-inspiring. And the journey towards enlightenment and the journey towards just an expansion of consciousness. And Jeremy, I can't help but think that is intentional, that that is purposeful. Do you think that in this spiritual reality there is a true opposition of force of darkness that is designed in this? reality to keep you from trying to find that connection to the divine and that enlightenment. Jeremy (52:05.92) My own personal belief, I I don't believe in I you know, I'm a I'm a non-believer, you know, I don't I'm not a person of of faith of a a higher power. and so I don't believe that there is is some greater higher power out there and in the same vein I don't believe that there is kind of a core of evil or a core kind of antagonistic force out there that is trying to keep us away from those universal truths. but what I what I'll say is, and maybe this is another way of saying the same thing, I do believe that love as a quality exists. I believe that compassion exists and gratitude and and kindness and and these beautiful qualities. And in the same way, I also believe that these unwholesome or unskillful qualities of anger and hatred and greed and delusion also exist. And so whether somebody wants to call that love a higher power, or for me it's just a quality that does exist in the universe, is a little bit of semantics, I guess. but I don't believe in there's some evil kind of syndicate behind the scenes that is scheming to keep us. That being said, I do think there are some quite evil industries out there. The porn industry is quite an evil industry. The pharmaceutical industry is, you know, quite a greedy industry that can do all kinds of things for their greedy intentions and cause a lot of harm. So I do think that there are some some industries out there that cause a lot of harm and and want to prevent us from being whole because it serves their benefit for us to feel. dissatisfied or to feel ill or to want to medicate these things away. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, but those are a little bit of kind of where I'm yeah. Dr. Roger McFillin (54:09.312) Well, it brings up another if there's still if there is no higher power, no ultimate creative force behind it all, then what is the butterfly turning or what is the caterpillar turning into a butterfly? What is generating the flowers blooming at a certain time of year? And you use the word love, well how was that created? Jeremy (54:38.356) Great question. I don't know. I mean, I guess in some ways I would on a literal level, you would put me more in the agnostic camp of of I don't know. But what I would say is that and this is just my own personal belief. I just don't see any evidence for me to believe the narrative that is perpetuated in in, you know, the kind of the more popular religions of our of our earth, that that it falls in this particular way. They they just seem a little too what's the word? Anthropomorphic, self-centered. I just think we don't really know what's out there. And maybe there's some higher power out there, but to think that it's the the God of the Bible or or the God of the Torah or the God of the, you know, any of these other religions, to me, I just don't see a whole lot of evidence that I should believe That it was created that way. There's too many things that don't make a lot of sense. If there was some higher power that's described in that way, why you know, why is there so much suffering in the world? A lot of things that just don't make sense to me. But I am open to it. I'm agnostic. You know, there might be something out there, but yeah, I just don't don't see it. Dr. Roger McFillin (55:57.303) Well, let's see if I can present you with some evidence and I'm interesting on on your thoughts. Are you aware of the literature on near-death experiences? Jeremy (56:09.684) Somewhat. I wouldn't say that I've done a deep dive. So feel free to to inform. Yeah. Dr. Roger McFillin (56:13.012) It's yeah, it's it's it's it's robust. And I think it's a bit of a question about eternal life. So we have this robust evidence of people who have flatlined, they're dead, they're gone. There's no brain activity, the heart's not beating. And they describe in a very similar way their consciousness leaving their bodies, and then they are exposed to. Information they wouldn't have otherwise had. So for example, someone is leaving their bodies on an operating table. They travel, they can see something on top of the roof of the hospital. They are connected to their loved ones that are miles, miles, even continents away. And when they eventually return, they're able to describe this information, which, you know, there's no other rational reason that they would. Have that information. They describe then that their spirit, their energy, travels often through this darkness towards a light. And that light is this overwhelming force of loving energy. Sometimes they're accompanied by guides, other times they're accompanied by other loved ones who have passed, and in some circumstances, with somebody that they didn't know passed. But they only find out later when they return. And then upon this travel, they in a number of cases undergo a life review, which means they experience their entire life from the vantage point of everyone who experienced them. And in this place where there's no time or space, it feels automatic, but you live that life again. And there's a downloading of knowledge because you experienced how you made other people feel and how you made other people think. And then there's this realization that you came to life, you came into that body for something very profound, a purpose, a mission, even. And for the people who had the near-death experience, it was the realization that their mission was unfulfilled. Dr. Roger McFillin (58:37.301) And they still had work to do to return. And they can describe in this beautiful detail that their desire is to continue on because the loving experience of being in that light, they know that life after that incarnation, after that death is beautiful and amazing, and you have this internal life. And then they return, they've made the choice to return to their body and they return with this wisdom or this enlightenment, and they are certainly closer to unconditional love. And when you ask them what the per what the purpose of life is, and they say it is a it is uncond unconditional love. You it's to learn that and to become more aligned with our creator, the all you know of all things. And that's one area of postmaterial science. Another area of postmaterial science, which I find fascinating, is the concept of previous lives. So we have there's there's a lab out of the University of Virginia, for example. Ian Stevenson was the original researcher, where around the world interviewing children under the age of five. All the way through adults, but the story of their previous lives in detail and then confirming that. And Then a more depth of understanding into the purpose of past lives can be gleaned from other scientific explorations into this. For example, the Monroe Institute, which Bob Munro was able to leave his body. His consciousness would travel. This is the origins of remote viewing. The CIA and Army intelligence in the United States were involved in this. But in his travels, he's been able to. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:00:39.811) and I'm when I say travels, I mean his bot his soul leaving his body at night and interacting with non-physical beings, where you understand the energetic origin origins of the universe, the purpose of life, and how we repeatedly enter into the cycle of human experiences by getting stuck in various karmic traps for beliefs that we have to. We have to make up for our wrongs, right? It's a state of being or state of mind that we've harmed others. We learned this in the life review, and then we have to make up for it by returning for a for another life. And we see the soul's evolution go going through this process. And I think Jesus was teaching eternal life. I do believe, similar to you, that world religions were are corrupted, edited, they're used for division, war. hate, which is certainly not of God. And so if you ask, I think, the the question of how how could suffering exist if there's a a loving creative force, I think that is answered simply by even the polarity of this earth, the darkness of this earth, and the evil is there for our good, because you ultimately expand your learning and your your soul's evolution in its Contrast. So, I mean, we can truly learn love in its dialogue dialectical, opposing expression of hate and fear. Like it it acts as a mirror in the same way our consciousness does. So when somebody comes in our life and we are in an experience of judgment of them, it is really a reflection of our inner inner world, something that has to heal for us to move towards unconditional love. And so if you think about Dr. Roger McFillin (01:02:38.591) This earth as a school of learning. That in all of eternity, suffering or a challenging event in our life is but an instantaneous moment that passes. But the growth in our soul is eternal. So we make agreements with others to enter into this earth to go through some hardships. Some of them are atrocities, but ultimately for our transformation, ultimately to learn unconditional love, forgiveness, compassion. And we are constantly creating whether we like it or not. this is why I think it's so important to have this disciplined inner world, because without being conscious of it, you're creating unconsciously, and you are vulnerable to that energetic pull towards darkness, envy, and Desire for material wealth and power and all the things that have drawn men into the depths of hell throughout all of eternity. But ultimately, possibly, we have to experience that first and able to truly understand and find the light. And I think we have evidence not only not only in this current time, but I think we have evidence through. writings throughout the course of the written word that often you know mysteriously become kind of protected and even hidden because of certain forces to try to eliminate that from the the consciousness. And if there's an energetic world that exists, which I do believe the concept was Louche by the way, where the where the energetic inner creation of fear and division Is harvested by dark entities who can't create. They just harvest that and they can attach to human beings to create on their behalf, which is one explanation for why we have just such we have war, famine, division, hate, and some of the worst atrocities on this planet. And we would destroy ourselves if we would follow, you know, that type of leadership. And we are destroying ourselves. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:05:03.276) But that it also is an awakening to a turning towards light. And I think that's where we are in our collective humanity, is a shift in consciousness, an expansion of our consciousness, our energy is now moving to a higher frequency, which I see as a Christ consciousness. But to do that, you have to break free from the inner enslavement, that inner prison. Jeremy (01:05:11.167) Yeah. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:05:31.052) That we've been captured by these dark forces. And we understand reality in only one specific way, one that ultimately views yourself as a separate individual from the whole. And the one benefit of being a aware of the darkness that's going on in this world right now: the war in Iran, the division, the mass poisoning of the human population, the use of Medical interventions, the loss of medical freedom, vaccines, pushing wealth into the top one percent, seeing how those systems work, dark intelligence forces underlying these systems. More people are aware of this at any other point in history, and that's purposeful because you have to shine the light on the dark first to transform. And that's my case for a larger loving force for our own good, and we choose this journey. as painful as it can be, but that's part of it. Jeremy (01:06:35.034) Mm. Fascinating. love your exploration. I I would say getting back to the question, I mean that you know, do I believe that that gives evidence for a higher power? Going back to the the recollections of past lives, future lives, consciousness, you know, near death experiences, those could all be true. And I still don't see how it necessarily points to a higher power. There are strange things about consciousness we don't understand, a lot that we don't understand. And I'm very open to it. but to make the leap from people have experienced their past lives or people have near-death experiences and experience a white light and receive some messages. Again, just my own personal take on it. It's hard to to then make the leap of say, therefore, there is a higher power. I I don't understand the the connection between those two. but that's just my personal take. It's gonna be very hard to convince me in to to believing in a higher power because I've thought for many, many decades about this. my parent Dr. Roger McFillin (01:07:40.769) Yeah, within Jeremy (01:07:48.264) W one side of my my parents are religious. half my family is religious. but yeah. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:07:57.143) Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm I I'm religious. I try to s I separate the two. But when I describe those other eviden that other evidence, people who have the depths of that experience and a near-death experience spoke about that divine, overwhelming, powerful creator of all things. Jeremy (01:08:16.18) Yeah, but so there's there's two things. I mean, one is the experience that they might have had. I mean, they might have had an actual experience of an actual past life. We don't there's a lot we don't understand about time and space. Time and space, you know, could all be the same on the same plane. And so maybe experiencing a past life. We also don't understand a lot about consciousness. It might be that we tap into a universal consciousness, and consciousness is all connected. There was a fascinating the the telepathy tapes. Podcast series, I think, opened up a lot of people's eyes about what consciousness is or isn't and whether we're all connected. So there's a lot we don't understand there. But for somebody to come back and say, I had a divine experience and it was God speaking to me or gave me this message, it's hard to discern what aspect is from their experience and the interpretation of their experience. Because somebody could have had. A mystical experience of experiencing the oneness with the universe, and interpreted that as something relevant to what they were, you know, were raised as in terms of a religious teaching that they heard, or this means it was God, or they got a message. But again, it's hard for me to to take that as evidence of a higher power. but it is fascinating data and useful and interesting to explore what is consciousness and. You know, is there a universal consciousness that we're tapping into? A lot of unanswered and maybe unanswerable questions out there, I'd say. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:09:49.846) it's interesting you brought up the telepathy tapes because I interviewed Diane Hennessy Powell and I re-released the episode. as I'm interviewing you right now, it's the episode I have out. But another, I think some of this is is linguistic and there's associations that we've developed. Like we we think about God as like in a human form, like this Sky Fairy or something like this. When when you say universe. Jeremy (01:10:17.616) With beard and blue eyes and yeah. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:10:20.065) Yeah. When when you say universal consciousness, that's my conception of God. Jeremy (01:10:27.326) Totally. And that's why I mentioned earlier the semantics, you know, it could all be semantics here. that, you know, what somebody calls a higher power, like I, you know, I believe in love. And if if that's what someone defines as being a higher power, then we might be on the same page. But you know, the idea that there is a being out there who created us with an intention and told a select group of people to write it down and put it in this sacred text or that sacred text and to write these specific rules. That's where I kind of take a ga a case against it. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:11:05.483) Yeah, I s I guess another way for me to try to communicate this, because maybe we're more on the same page than what we're actually talking about here, is because my definition of God is also love. That is the creative force of all the universe. I would also say that I see the God in you. So you are an expression of that universal force. So ultimately, when we just Jeremy (01:11:19.624) Yeah. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:11:33.892) Consider asking questions, it's okay. Well, then who created that? Who created that? Who created that? Who created that? And at some point you have to say, you have to come up with some answer on who you are and what this microphone is and what this moment is, and what is a butterfly, and you know, what is underlying that entire force of all creation? Because even consciousness, if we believe everything arises from consciousness and consciousness is universal, well, what is consciousness then? Right. So To me, when I say that higher force, I'm referring to that energy that is much grander than my limited human mind could ever even consider. And I think God has the as the creative force is has his hand in everything. So you are an expression of that force. And so you are here, and I'm an expression of that force. And it's if that force is an ocean, you we're a drop of water in that, right? We're just one small drop of water in that. Force, but I believe that he is experiencing himself. I can't even say him, right? We try to put everything in human form. This energy is is experiencing itself through us, right? We are that expression. And then we go and create. So right now we're having this conversation. We write books, we pull from that universal consciousness. We are constantly shifting our physical world on this on this planet. we cre we have children. Like life is created. And there is this sophisticated interconnectedness of all of nature. And then we can only approach that with wonderment and awe, how everything works beautifully together for life. And if I have to come down to well, what's the origins of life? That is the force that I'm I'm referring to. And I believe that force is ultimately for good. And that Forces ultimately love, but there is an energetic polarity of all things and all of creation and all of the universe. There is a a plus and a minus, like a negative and a positive force. And it's not like that evil aspect or their darkness aspect is inherently just bad for us. We can actually see that it's good for us because it provides that balance and we have free will in making choices. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:13:59.252) And we have choices in everything. We can create in good, or we can create in separation. We can create for the good of humanity. We can serve others. We can create things that ease suffering and pain, and we can evolve in that way. And that ends up filling that emptiness we were discussing earlier. Or we can try to accumulate as much worldly possessions as possible and seek as many quick fixes through food or pleasure. or any other of the enticing, you know, worldly type Dr. Roger McFillin (01:14:40.381) human pleasurable experiences that you spoke about earlier, which ultimately made you miserable. And so like this exists and I have to think it exists for a really important reason. And that's where I fall back on through wisdom in in in text, not necessarily interpretation from the modern man, but the these various texts I come across with this wisdom and it feels like my soul is being Jeremy (01:14:54.848) Mm. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:15:10.091) Enlightened with love with an energy. And then I speak with people who've died and returned. Or you can actually, like, if you've ever been in the presence of somebody who is just truly, truly wise, they seem to have an answer to these deep questions that is simple, but yet it leads you to think differently about your existence and answer some. Questions that are kind of universal, that in itself are us seeking out an answer to the emptiness that can exist on this earth. And so I'm not going to try to convince you any more than that, but there's a wonderment and awe to that creative force. And I think we can tap into it. And when we tap into it, I think amazing things can happen. Jeremy (01:16:06.534) Amen. I would say we can both agree that that love is is a driving force in the universe and something that gives meaning to our life. you know, we might just disagree on on how far it goes. You know, I I tend to think the universe doesn't care about us as much. but we do have a choice in what meaning we give to the universe. and love is a beautiful thing to give meaning to. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:16:27.234) Mm. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:16:31.816) well, let's conclude this discussion today because you have this life now that you're actually committing to people overcoming porn addictions. And I'm sure that transcends itself to many other of other trappings and compulsions of of this life. I'm really interested to know some just core principles and to tie together, you know, this conversation that are applied. to you know, overcoming such a like horrible destructive pattern. and what you're you know, what you're bearing witness to in in your work. Jeremy (01:17:11.22) Yeah. Important, you know, the thing you brought up, it's it's not just porn. You know, porn is one little sliver of a thing that people get addicted to. But it really has nothing to do with with porn. It's any of the things that we might get hooked on or use as, you know, as a false idol or a false refuge and, you know, seeking some security in that don't actually give us security. And so whether it's porn or junk food or alcohol or hardcore drugs, it can be anything. And so the work that we do, it's not, you know, there's a lot of porn recovery programs out there that are focused on porn and focused on sobriety from porn. And sobriety from porn is one percent of the work. Sobriety is not the same as recovery. Recovery is looking at the ways that we get addicted to things outside of ourself and and sabotage our happiness. And so the work that that I do with guys is really much more expansive than that. You know, porn is one thing we look at, but it's really about looking at the ways we try to escape, to run away, to numb out, and how to live align you know, more in alignment with your values, more a life of integrity, a life that you're proud of and you can look yourself in the mirror and be proud of the person you see. So a lot of the work we do i is more around making sure that you're living a value driven life, that you're living in integrity. Those are some of the core foundations of of the work. It's it's not really about the porn. Porn is just one little thing. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:18:48.568) Yeah, very good points. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:18:56.91) Guess my my final question is this. You mentioned this word ap abstinence. I I find that a lot of people are, you know, asking this this question. Let's let's just put porn t to the side for a second. We are living in this world of technology and we have these supercomputers in our pockets. And there's this social media world where, in one sense, you can feel connected and you can communicate with anyone all over the world. You can believe that it's providing you access to knowledge of world events. But it's also something that is like hacking your attention. It is a there's a An algorithm that is created to filter information to who you are based on your own desires and preferences. So, in some ways, it's like shaping a world for you without your consent. And we live in a world now of utter convenience, right? And it almost feels like convenience is somewhat of an enslavement because. You can get maps on your phone. You can order from Amazon. Almost anything you want is at your fingertips. And life in some ways has gotten easier. And then the easier it's gotten, the easier it's become, what ends up happening is we become, for some reason, more miserable. And people are asking you know deeper questions about this convenience as being a trap. And Dr. Roger McFillin (01:21:01.304) That a life of doing some hard things provides rewards. And they're considering detoxing, abstaining, giving up certain things, including talking about giving up phones, social media. There's more people talking about abstaining from alcohol, changing one's lifestyle to break free from the digital gulag. and My question for you is in the work that you're doing, is there such thing as moderation? Like are people to able to still stay connected and use the technology and not fall victim into all those trappings? thoughts on this? Jeremy (01:21:37.136) Mm-hmm. Jeremy (01:21:53.043) Yeah. So so many thoughts on this. it it's a fascinating topic to explore, the question of moderation. And unfortunately, it's not a simple answer. There's a lot of nuance to it because, you know, in in part you brought up a lot of different potential behaviors that people might want to moderate around. So sometimes I get asked the question in your world, do people get to a place where they can moderate around porn? And is any amount of porn okay? Other people have the question. Can I moderate around social media? Or can I moderate around alcohol? Or can I moderate around technology in general? And so these are all different questions that have different risk profiles associated with them. So I'll start with maybe the easiest case, which is the porn question. For almost anyone who has had a compulsive relationship with porn, moderation is just nearly impossible. If you've had a problematic abusive relationship with porn, if you've used it as your drug of choice. Getting to a place where you can moderate around it and just watch a little bit and not suffer any consequences is basically impossible, I would say. In part because it is a billion-dollar, a multi-billion dollar industry that is engineered to be as addictive as possible. This industry is bigger than all of the sports leagues in the US combined, the NBA, the NFL, the MLB. If you combine all of those industries, the porn industry is a bigger industry than all of them. A lot of people don't realize that. They don't realize that there is a money-making scheming industry that is engineering this precisely, this algorithm, to hook you as effectively as possible. And so when you realize that it's a massive industry and it's trying to prey on what makes most of us human, these primal beautiful aspects of human nature are sexuality. And it is tapping directly into that powerful source and taking advantage of it and exploiting it. It's just it's a very silly thing to try to moderate around. It's like playing with fire around a box of explosives. You're just asking for trouble. I won't say it's impossible and maybe for a small percentage of the population, they can watch it and it doesn't cause that much harm. But you also have to put aside the questions of the ethical questions of the porn industry, which is a whole nother rabbit hole we could go down around how much sex trafficking is involved in the porn industry. Jeremy (01:24:19.924) How much exploitation. So for most people, they come to the realization that porn it's just not possible to moderate around and it's not ethical no matter how much you use it. That being said, it doesn't make you a bad person if you have a slip. I really want to emphasize that. This is one of the things I'm most passionate about is letting go of the shame and realizing you don't have to be perfect around this. If you are a guy trying to quit watching porn and you occasionally slip and watch porn against your higher self and against your better interests, it's okay. You're not a horrible person. You're not a failure. You're not starting back at zero. You had a slip and you made a mistake and that's okay. Just get back on track. So that's that's what I'll say about the porn thing. The social media technology world is a it's a more complicated question. because The risks are potentially, you know, the the harmful consequences in terms of how much it harms relationships, how much it harms your sense of self-worth, your ability to focus. It's different from porn. and so, you know, people can live a good life while still having an addiction to social media. And it's possible to have an okay life and still, you know, be addicted to your follower count. You know, it's not like it's a it's not a binary on or off. You're either living a good, wholesome, ethical life without social media, or you're using social media and you're just a a degenerate who has no morals, right? It's not that simple. So what a lot of people find is the degree to which they are enslaved by their addiction to something is the degree to which they find more misery and suffering in their life. If you are engaged in, let's just pick one, social media. And it is a highly addictive force that you feel enslaved by, and you are constantly checking your follower count, how many likes you're getting, and you are just consumed by that to the detriment of your relationships, to the detriment of your career, then it's really worthwhile looking at your relationship and finding ways to break free, to get unhooked, to become unenslaved by that behavior. But it's not a black or white thing. You might Jeremy (01:26:39.38) Some people make the decision they're better off without it completely. And that it is so triggering for them because of their neural kind of wiring and how they were raised, that trying to engage with it in a healthy way, it's just not worth the risk. And their life is better not using social social media. That's just one example, but you can apply that to almost anything. The more potential harms and risks a particular behavior or substance has. The more you should consider being completely sober from it. You know, alcohol is another one that a lot of people, some many people have a healthy relationship with alcohol and can moderate around it. I'm one of those people now. You know, I'll order a glass of wine once every two months and I won't even finish the glass. It'll sit on the table and I'll get halfway through the glass and I'll think, I don't like the taste of this anymore. I'm not going to drink it. For other people, They have one sip and it sends them down a spiral that goes way too far and ends up in infidelity or crashing a car or selling their home, all kinds of things. So it's about your particular relationship with a thing and what are the harms and consequences it has. And then it's about making an informed decision about how to move forward skillfully. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:28:03.073) Well said. Jeremy, where can people find you if they're interested in learning more about who you are and the services you provide? Jeremy (01:28:11.336) If people are interested in just this topic of porn addiction and you know, mindfulness and and all of that stuff, I have my own podcast. It's called Unhooked, the Breaking Porn Addiction Podcast. That's where I dive into a lot of this stuff. and if they want to learn more about the work that I do, they can check out unhooked academy dot com. That's where I post all my programs and and the one on one work that I do. Dr. Roger McFillin (01:28:35.939) Great. very enlightening conversation, many different topic areas, but Jeremy, I wanna thank you for a radically genuine conversation. Jeremy (01:28:48.864) Appreciate you having me on. It was a joy.