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How to Grow an Advice Firm Without Breaking It · Adeptli's Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Adeptly Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: At Adeptly, we work alongside advisors and advice firms, providing hands-on, technical, operational, and strategic support to help them deliver good advice and run stronger businesses.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: In this series, we explore the trends, challenges, and questions impacting financial advisors and advice firms across the UK, with practical insight from people working at the heart of the industry.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Clear thinking, real experience, and honest conversation.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: In this episode, we're joined again by Shawn Matheson and Thomas Kelly.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: Sean is managing director of Meta, a business built around client relationships, team efforts, and responsive personal advice.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: While Thomas is director of operations at William James, where his role includes strengthening the firm's operational and regulatory foundations, or so their respective websites say.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: And then the fourth member of the team today is my fellow co-founder, Dave Lardner.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: So welcome all.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_04: For those who didn't join us last time, Sean, would you just like to give us a bit of background on Meta?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Meta are um uh partner practice of St.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: James's Place.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we look after around 650 client households at the moment.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um currently seven advisors and three back office staff.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there since 2022.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_04: Amazing.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: And Thomas?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_05: So William James is a uh by regard a relatively young um financial advice firm, independent financial advice firm started in 2023.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_05: There's um nine advisors.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um I feel like I should know how many clients we've got, but it feels like it changes a lot because it's growing so quickly.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, we we look after a lot of a lot of clients, mainly in around the Midlands with a with a base in Birmingham, but we're remotely remote work.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of advice firms out there want to grow, but you are both in charge of operations of uh firms which are actually growing, and obviously with that comes uh pressure, test people, processes, culture, all of those good things.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: So in your respective roles, what have you found hardest as your firms have started and continue to grow?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think for me the biggest challenge is the balance of freedom for each of the advisors as they join sort of an authentic feel where people can bring their ideas, their business and their style to meta while still retaining a central thread or consistent brand, something that means us as a collection of individuals that doesn't mean cookie cutter, same for me it's the um I mention I always talk about people um and it's about the people in it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm gonna tell a story now which all my team have what have already heard and use up most of the time we've got probably, but um I'm a big fan I'm a big fan of Jürgen Klopp.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_05: Um and Jürgen Klopp when he joined Liverpool um at a press conference he explained the kind of people he wanted to uh bring into the club and surround himself with, and he described it as being like a train that is sitting on the tracks, and what he needed was the kind of people um to come and stand on the tracks behind the train with him, put their hands and shoulders to the back of the train and help push the train down the track and get the thing moving.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_05: And that's been the thing that has been I th I think hard in a way hardest and and also most most rewarding about actually getting a from a standing start of regulation from the FCA in February 23 to three years later, the size that the size that we've got to is getting the right mix of people and getting them that they're prepared, the kind of culture and values of those people that they're prepared to come and stand with me.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_05: I'm still standing on the track at the back of the train.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_05: The train is moving, I'm still standing there with the with a with a number of other people.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_05: And that finding sometimes you get people who are quite like to just open the door, jump on the train and take a seat.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_05: That's kind of their they're quite, and it's trying to find that right balance of finding the right the right people to get the thing moving.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: And in terms of sorry, excuse me, in in terms of your growth, do both your organizations have a well-defined trajectory?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_04: I think last time you won, Sean, you spoke around when you joined there was a 10-year plan.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we we've worked over um sort of a 10-year project um looking at reaching a target of a billion AUM.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the original plan was that that would be 10 advisors writing in excess of£100,000 of new business every year.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you can track that through and see what that related to at the time in terms of AUM inflows.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we had kind of metrics on the numbers of people, the client experience, the average AUM per house, and the total AUM.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not saying we're winging it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_05: No, we're um, we I um the the founder, one of the founders, the founding directors, the founder share shareholders.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um, this is now he he would say, were he sitting here he would tell this much better than me, but he this is his third go round at building a financial advice business.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_05: Um he sold his previous one for very successfully after having run it for um 25 years.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um so it's a well-worn path for him that it's kind of like, and what we're trying to do is do is do it better.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_05: I also talk about him that he's a he's a just he's a chess player, and constantly I feel as though he is already four or five moves ahead of me in everything that happened.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_05: So the the growth plans so far have panned out exactly as an original plan that would have been written down and quite quite simply um in terms of recruiting advisors and and and and and acquisition strategy.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_05: So we've got our first acquisition that's happened this year.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: We've got a new advisor joined just a couple of weeks ago.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um so it's about how we go about the the organic growth from bringing in new clients but also going against other ones.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, there is a there is a there is a plan.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um it is but it's a well-worn path for as the wise man once said, I think it's easy to have a plan until you get punched in the face.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_06: That's right.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_06: Mike Tyson, yeah, not Thomas Kevin.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_06: It wasn't me.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_06: I haven't pushed anyone in the face.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_05: I've never punched anyone in the face.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: And how how do your businesses go about bringing those growth aspirations and those growth plans into the day-to-day operations, right?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_04: Because there's a very real danger with some of this business planning and being in large corporate in the past, November, December, we must write a business plan, must write a business plan, write a business plan, and then it's a box ticked, we've done it.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_04: No one actually uses it, looks at it, measures success by it.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_04: How do you guys make sure the things in those plans actually translate to growth in the business and operational success?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_05: You'd like me to go.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um the um we meet regularly um and we look at we look at what we're trying to achieve.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_05: Um and we and we talk about it and we find and and we and we target it and we and we deliver it.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_05: And at the moment that's that that that's worked.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um the that that we're delivering it.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: The the And is that very distinct from your operational meetings, day-to-day activities, are they dedicated, growth-focused, strategy-oriented sessions?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, there's the the there's different the the the the day-to-day, again, I'm very fortunate that um that that that Philip, who's the the founder and the direct that my co-director, um he's um he's much more visionary than than than I am.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I've worked well with in in the past with other people.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_05: I know Dave knows one of them very one of them very well, that I'm very good at at delivering um a plan that people I'm less good at the at the at the visionary thinking of how we should do that.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_05: So the fact that we work together means that uh yeah, we sit down, we talk about that differently to um talking about how many um meetings of the advisor got today and have we got any problems, or then it's a very, very different scenario.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh first of all, I think it's gonna depend very much on what business plan you are talking about.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um my experience from corporate really resonates in that you would give your advisor or your team, they would do that business planning with them, um, and then it would go on a draw.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: That in my mind is because it was never their business plan.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was just what I wanted as their boss.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't matter to them, it didn't mean anything.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so in Meta, we'll do individual business planning with the advisors, where we talk about this is your business within our business.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the objectives and KPIs?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to measure?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: What do you genuinely believe is going to drive your business over the next one year and three years?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Don't go beyond three years with advisors because their brains probably explode.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but where they've defined and thought about and reflected on the things that they think are going to make their business tick the next year, that then becomes the conversation that we have every single month with them.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I it's about not filling it with pointless waffle, isn't it?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like actually settle on what you think is going to work.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then in terms of meta, we try and we try and separate strategic from tactical.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the strategy, we'll have a really clear sort of director's meeting um at the end of our financial year and look at is the strategy still appropriate?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: On the back of the um simple comparable charging piece, is our strategy?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna need to change some of those numbers now because IAC earning is gonna be slightly different.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that mean in terms of funds under management?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Strategy change and then communication to everyone that's involved.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: But outside that, what moves a lot is tactical.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the strategy we still would with that's the plan, that's where we're heading in 10 years, but we have to move tactically how we operate.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think by by separating the two, you manage to actually stick to the business plan because you can see that it's still right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that you have to operate differently to deliver it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_06: I guess there's some synergy between taking the client on their journey from an objective point of view.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_06: So when you're advising a client, what you're trying to achieve, when do you need to achieve that?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_06: Why is that important to you?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_06: There's some synergy between that and the advisor discussion, isn't there?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_06: To take the advisor on that journey.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_06: Because your plan is your plan.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_06: They are part of that plan, but they might not care and feel the same way about it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So how And you know, when we're talking to clients, we always talk about the the three clients.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we're advising you now, you at the point of financial independence or you in 20 years, and then you at legacy.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't advise you now on what's right for you if it's going to really kind of mess up that guy over there.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And same for advisors, unless we understand where do they want to be in 10, 15 years, yeah.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Are they are they wanting to become business owners?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Are they wanting to just earn a good income and not have the stress?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: That entirely changes the focus of their business planning and what they're doing it for.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: And there's obviously different routes to growth.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think Thomas, you've already mentioned you've just gone through an acquisition.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: Sean, I don't know, has your business acquired any firms historically?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we did um, I mean, there's been a number of acquisitions over the years.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: We did a a really significant one um 2020, week before COVID.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's joyful.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um still working through that now in terms of embedding some of those client relationships.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we have um taken on a few kind of smaller um arrangements for other partner firms that have left um where there's an opportunity to kind of retain client relationships and uh and improve their experience with an SJP firm.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's I I think is a key part of business, but it comes with pros and cons.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: And when both of you, when your organizations were looking at possible acquisitions, what were some of the things you were looking at within those already established businesses which made them an attractive proposition for you?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_06: What was it that you wanted to see?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_06: And what things might have been red flags or amber flags, maybe, that you didn't want to necessarily see?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably changed actually over the past few years as well, because the the implementation of consumer duty and the forward-looking aspect on the financial services industry now is absolutely driving quality, long-term, sustainable relationships.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas historically, I guess some of the due diligence would lean more towards what's the opportunity for new business here.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we've always looked at what's the um what's the client profile?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Meta is geared towards clients that want to attain something.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: So professional delegators, um, successful individuals that are looking to be proactive about their kind of financial planning and work with a firm that are going to challenge them and move that forward.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that's quite a that's quite a type of client, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so therefore, what we're looking for is average age of the client, but what sort of demographic for um employment?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are they doing at the moment in terms of their relationship?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are they looking for?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, average AUM and earnings, um, and then just the kind of product mix, but across a more holistic.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Are we looking at a client bank here that has already had fantastic service and clients are fully kind of um invested?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Good on one hand, less opportunity, um, or you'll see you know, some client banks that are particularly heavy in a pensions area or something, which represents risk, but equally opportunity to then go and talk to those clients about the other areas, help them achieve a more holistic balance.
• 16:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: And Thomas, I appreciate you said yours is just gone through and you're in the process of it.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_05: But it is again, it's one of those things that I've not mentioned a well-worn path before that um that the part of the strategy from the previous firm for for for Philip, who's the the director, um, he was acquiring businesses and he knows the number I I don't, but it was an awful lot of businesses were acquired.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_05: So he's learnt an awful lot about what to look for and what not to look for.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_05: Um to pick high-level things.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_05: You Sean touched on touched on one of them is that if you're gonna acquire a business to take over looking after a client, you have to be able to offer that client something.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah and and and if you are um buying a business and it's kind of like you're just gonna rock up the next time you see them and say, everything's great, uh fine.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_05: That they're not gonna get that sort of warm feeling of kind of you the these guys really know what they're talking about.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_05: It almost feels like, well, same old, same old.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know that that's what I was looking for.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_05: They've lost the relationship they had with an advisor that they've known for years, they're now getting to know this person.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_05: It's almost like you need to engage them in something.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_05: So you you want to look for something you and again, you touched on it, it's kind of like if they've already got everything beautifully planned, it's harder to make an impression on that client and show that client that you really know what you're talking about.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_05: If you look at the the if you look at the client and you you you see lots of pockets of yeah, those look like old um pension products that probably should have yeah, they're probably going to be quite highly charged.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_05: They're you know that that that feels like there's better outcomes we can get for the client.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that's probably what we look for is looking at the the the data that's available.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_05: Can we tell whether those clients can we improve their outcomes?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_05: Can we actually offer them something different, something better?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and then there are different scenarios of of why is the person selling as well.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_05: And again, from Philip's experience, it's it's it's easier.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_05: That's probably a bit too lazy a word to use, but it's easier if that person is actually looking to exit and leave, because what then happens is we can we it's an i it it's almost an easier transition to say the the clients are coming in, we're not you're with us now, we're gonna look after you now.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they they've done a great job, they've sailed off into the sunset and retired, we're now gonna look after you, and there's a there's almost a cleaner sort of you're in our hands now.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_05: Whereas the rather than the hankering for this isn't how it used to be and the other person's still there and can I not talk to them again?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_06: And I guess the data becomes quite important there, though, doesn't it?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_06: Because in that due diligence piece, it's not going to be always possible to delve deep into client scenarios, client files.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_06: So the data at a high level is giving you those value angles, isn't it?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_06: Can I see from the data I've got what the client's got, what the opportunities might be to add value?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_06: Because, like you said, if you're if you're acquiring that client, they're going through an experience themselves from a relationship point of view.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_06: If that is difficult for them, and then there's not really any new value added, any not disturbance, but things we could do differently that might better your outcome, that is what a client would immediately start to feel some value from, isn't it?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_06: And it's not necessarily criticism what has or hasn't been done before, it's just a new lens, a fresh pair of eyes.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_06: Because it is hard, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_06: If you've looked after a client for a long time, you you you f you can fall into a trap of everything's right because I did it, so therefore we just keep on this track that you know the strategic thing hasn't changed.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, and actually in this scenario, I don't need to make any tactical changes either.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: The value, therefore, is hard to the unconscious competence, isn't it?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Which soon makes you incompetent, Anina.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: And as part of your longer term strategies, do you feel that where's the balance between organic growth and further acquisitions for both of you, do you think the big numbers will come from from acquisition.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um the there is an element, there's there's there's probably three angles that would that we would look at.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, the the the growth will come from referrals um and we do get referrals, and every every advisor will get referrals through from other people.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_05: So that that comes almost naturally.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_05: Building relationships with um with with professionals, particularly accountants, is is something that we're that we're work that we're working on to build that organic growth.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: You then kind of have um, shall I call them disgruntled advisors of other firms who, if there are opportunities to work with people, and again, I'm fortunate that um I have quite a wide network, having been around the industry for quite a long time, that there are people out there that you kind of would want to work with again.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_05: You remember who they are, you you know, you you kind of and and if there's a chance for somebody to see that there might be an opportunity there, then we we can try and work on that.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and then there's acquisition.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_05: I think the big numbers, the big sort of waterfall moments, if you like, will come will come from the right acquisition, finding the right acquisition and bringing that in is the is the thing.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_05: And then it's about not breaking the team in doing in doing it.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's kind of that that's that's really, really important.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think similar, I think there will be more acquisition in our business in the future, but I am um I think the the value of the business at exit point um is going to be impacted in the future when people are looking at buying our business, the ability to generate organic growth.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: becomes a real advantage in the sales model.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so A, because it will help us with the growth, B, because it really does allow us to define the sort of clients that we want in terms of clients that want proper financial planning and want to go on that journey with us.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Organic growth is is a very key focus for us right now.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_04: And Thomas, you started taking us on that path there.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_04: So let's go around the more operational aspects and having the firm being able to cope with what bringing in.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously as a firm grows recruitment becomes quite a key aspect and from our previous uh podcast you did suggest you've made some mistakes in that in that hire Dave.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yes I did hire Dave and was he eventually let go Dave decided it was no longer for him no one if you if you would like I will I work just as an anecdote anecdotally one of my recruits ended up in jail.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_05: On the record that wasn't before it wasn't one of my recruits ended up in jail.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_05: Something they did while working they did no something they did in their personal life.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not that bad at recruiting.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_04: So how hard is it out there at the moment to recruit good people as you're growing like there's a lot of MA activity in the industry isn't it every there's a lot of private equity investment.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_05: Everybody seems to be on this big growth push how is that affecting you guys being able to bring the right people in good people into your operations so far what we've found is that we can find people we've got a small group of recruitment agents that we we we we we deal with for the right roles we've also got quite a good net a good network of people that we've worked with previously and we've we're finding that you can take a little bit of the risk out by going and trying to approach and tap on the shoulder in whatever form that takes people that you liked working with before and you know are good.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_05: So we've been able to use that to tap on the shoulder yet Dave.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_05: Not yet are you feeling left out Dave's feeling left out now is that is that all one have a go at Dave for the episode.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah so so fine we've actually found we we've actually found it okay to find um fight find people the it what we're finding at the at the moment is it's the in it's the integration bit is the actually getting them in trained up to speed and not doing it at too fast a pace that means that that causes a problem.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_05: That's that that's the balancing act we're finding with recruitment that it's almost if if if I I think we're currently recruiting for um one role if anyone's watching um it's on LinkedIn um but um but we we we can we we we're recruiting and and I think there will probably be at least one or more to follow um the plan that we're following is is that uh to use a a Stephen Covey beginning with the end in mind I think we know what the framework and the the the the structure chart looks like in five ten years time the how we actually get to that is still evolving.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_05: It goes back to your strategy versus tact tactical at the moment it's finding who are the right people to bring in now it's what role is it that we need to we need to we need to fill in now.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_04: And there's there's quite an interesting tension you just said there about bringing people in training them up because obviously you're a growing firm lots going on your existing team is busy already and then you bring someone new in who doesn't know the business needs more support more training how do you manage that balance of operationally keeping slick but also upskilling and training the new people you're bringing in if my team are watching then they'll probably say I'm doing it very badly at the moment.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah I mean as I I did a mid Teams meeting yesterday and nine people on the call six were there I think uh sorry five were there less than six months so it's kind of it's so it it is kind of but it is um and doing it remotely is is is it's it adds an adds another as a adds another layer.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's about the communication I think Sean mentioned in the last episode about communication um being key and it is about it is about that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's knowing um the old sayings uh teach person to fish.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_05: You can be the one person who knows how to do something and keep doing that or you can show other people how to do it.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_05: It means you're not the only person and and it's trying to encourage that ethos of of showing people and helping people develop.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_05: So it's all about the culture um um around making sure that people want to develop want to learn um want to get better um and walk towards you when you when when you want to do that so that that it's just trying to instill that and again I'm gonna mention Jurgen Klopp again though if I don't mention him several times it's it is kind of it's kind of getting the right people with you so that we're in it together.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_05: And it it is kind of and I'd like to think that my team would know that that that that I am there for them to support them in that way.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_05: If they have a problem with something that I will help them understand how to do it.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not saying I'm almost always the smartest person in the room I'm really not I do it deliberately make sure I'm not the smartest person in the room I'm not sure who's the smartest person in this room probably Dave would probably say Dave and Sean uh since you you've got leaner support staff I think you've mentioned previously and you use outsourcing more so does that have an impact are you always necessarily looking at recruiting or are you looking at using more outsourced partners what what does it look like for you?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we we look really carefully at recruitment and I want to recruit I think the position that I found myself in when I started was more that there's so much change going on and a a belief from me having worked in the corporate and looked at an infinite number of partner practices that quite often as a business has grown there you've got the principal or the director of the business is at heart a financial advisor.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than a business owner and um have in a way become a sort of an accidental business owner.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have um a particular interest or skill in the operation and so the answer becomes more people.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: More bums on more seats.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so genuinely I think that we look lean, we probably are lean but that's because I think most practices in SJP in my mind personal view are are overstaffed because they haven't spent the time working on that operational process and understanding how long things actually should take.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_06: And in what order and who best skilled we've talked about that before haven't we so the challenge is you like you said the challenge is you just put more bums on seats so there's more people to be able to do the work rather than necessarily stepping back and saying what's the right bit of work that needs doing how should it get done what's the right order how can you make that lean so that you're not wasting resource and costs.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um look my team will probably tire over the last few years there's points at which they'd say lean was generous and anorexic was more accurate.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I will answer them by saying that diamonds are formed under pressure.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: We've been forced to really lean into technology we've been forced to for the advisors to do their part and it's it's it's bought us clarity, transparency and efficiency.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're sort of we've just taken on two new roles um and I don't actually in the the administrative side I find that there is a huge amount of talent and kind of energy um in the people that I meet.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think we talked in the last episode about the I'm not sure we tried taking on people in administrative roles to develop into advisor and that it didn't it actually bizarrely worked in getting them to be a good advisor but that's not what I need in my back office.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we're now we look for people that have a slightly different ambitional motivation generally speaking um I I have struggled though so maybe I need to speak to Thomas on recruitment of advisors because I find that kind of there's a lot of good talent coming out from the St.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: James's Place Academy but with the motivation work ethic and kind of energy there you don't have the skin in the game and like the experience or kind of to balance all of the different things you need to do as an advisor in front of a sophisticated client.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So our growth is challenged by if you like that the availability of advisors um I mean one of the one of the things we've done following our learn from administrative into advisor is we now offer a fixed term employed contract to starting advisors because our advisors work self-employed but we'll now do fixed term employment because you can't start from a standing start and go out and earn enough to be comfortable.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not safe it's not right for the client there's too much to do.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Equally I don't want really an employed advisor model but so we'll do a fixed term contract where we've got more control obviously the the employment means we can direct them to learn they can pick up the you know stuff that we need as a business with a view that that then we kind of form our own we give them the skill and then 18 months they're ready to pop out and be a proper advisor um but that obviously takes time and that is impacting the the growth opportunity.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think there's um anything in that between when you talked about your sophisticated clients and the challenge for the advisors in do you think there's a challenge with that i.e's your expectation of the types of clients that you want the types of clients you have the journey and and delivery of the advice that you want to give versus the advisor competence because like you said academies lots happening in academy space good people come out of good academies but are they ready for some of your client profiles absolutely right and it doesn't even need to be um technical complexity in the planning right so this doesn't need to be you know a client that is a multi-million pound earner with huge sums but the clients that we're looking for are individuals that are wanting to be challenged and challenged and achieve something and it takes even the relationship management knowing how to navigate that path and when to push the client and how to establish your own value and meet as equals when you are younger I fell into the trap when I was an advisor that you're so keen to kind of earn trust and respect that you become subservient oh I can do that for you I can pick up that for you right you you you do your best and so then the client sees you as someone that fulfills a need rather than an equal a trusted advisor who's someone that says no no stop that's what you want to do but it's dumb test of a good relationship you say that and client says okay yeah and Thomas obviously you're you're not part of a network which might have that academy option available to you how how does your firm go about recruiting new advisors or even do you have a view on if academies or whether that's in-house or external might be part of your growth plan in the future?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_05: So there's a a flexibility of approach if I put it that way again there's partly it's partly the network and then it's about um the role that we're developing that I touched on in the last episode around around assistant advisor um that we can recruit in people who perhaps see the end goal as wanting to be an advisor but we know that it takes a long time to develop into into that role so there's the there's that and then we it it's all the strands because you can then look at an acquisition and say yeah well I said earlier that it might be ideal if the person is retiring but actually if there's two or three advisors in that in the in the in the business that we're looking at acquiring then and you know if the person that's this is the the the owner is going to is going to retire but there are two that that that would come in and be advised.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a there's a chance in each of those um solutions if you like to for to finding a a new advisor um and in in that assistant advisor model who who's the one responsible for their training and development?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's me but it's shared but it but it's shared very much they would be it would it it's being done on a on a on a on a buddy system where they would be paired with an advisor.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_05: What that does is potentially does two things.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_05: It means that that advisor can see more people that advisor can go deeper with with things because they maybe want to spend more time researching something being really to make sure they're really sharp on it they don't they don't have the time but if the assistant is there they can do that research.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_05: The assistant can deal with with note taking they can be the person in the room that we spoke about AI being or potentially being going forward they they can do that.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_05: So it means that that advisor there's a quid pro quo there that the advisor gets some help the the the assistant advisor gets some learning and some development and everybody's happy that's the that's the idea.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then I suppose once recruiting growing firms role clarity then starts becoming important and you know working in small organisations through to very big organizations in big organization you know hierarchy structure job description sign off of roles or all of that lovely stuff which comes with being a big organization obviously you guys aren't small but you're not big FTSE100s.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make sure your teams have got clarity on what they're doing and what's one person's responsibility and what's someone else's feel like Sean's got an house let Sean go first Thomas watch this one um I I think what I have is uh quite a learned experience because having come from big corporate and um having experienced that level of bureaucracy and silo and ridiculousness that occurs when that's not my job.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not doing it I'm not interested when the the job just needs doing we just need to get it done like we're a small business guys we're all gonna lean in the face says it all that long before you realize that wasn't working based on your face.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what I have learned um is there is a difference between kind of bureaucracy and kind of that level of hierarchy and kind of dictatorship for want of a better phrase and clarity.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so ultimately people feel more comfortable when they're really clear and that's not it's it goes back to I think a conversation we had in our previous um chat around people need to feel safe.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So this is not a um that's the list of things that you're gonna get hit over the head for it's a this is this is your world so if something in there isn't working you don't necessarily need to know how to fix it but you need to know to flag it.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've worked quite hard as we've redesigned our back office and the structure to ensure that we've got absolute clarity on where one job role starts and stops.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we try and break that down in our job descriptions are so granular now.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: But because it's in a language that everybody understands and you have to sense check it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: You have to read that bullet point out and then get someone to tell you what does that mean to you?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the same as what it means to me right so testing the expectation and doing and doing that really slowly and making sure that everybody in the team when we write this sentence down it means the same thing to everyone and we're all on board.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've done that collectively as a team because I I still want them to feel empowered.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: I still want Meta to be a place that isn't about hierarchy and yeah anything I ask you to do has to be something I'm willing to do.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_05: But we shouldn't all be trying to do the same thing because that just causes carnage and do you have any experiences with this Thomas Yeah I mean it's it it's again we we spoke previously about healthy tension and and it and it's sort of um and and it will it it it will continue.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_05: It's kind of it it's led at the moment I would say it's principles based so it's kind of the principle of the administrator's role that's what you do the principle of we're we're probably not as granular in our our job descriptions I would guess I haven't seen yours but I'm pretty sure ours won't be as granular.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_05: But the uh but but but we have this is principally this is what we're expecting from an administrator this is what we're expecting from a power planner this is what we're expecting from an advisor where I think we and I I I touched a little bit on the on the structure is that there's um my um long suffering um bright hand Zoe who um fills in a lot of a lot of gaps that are kind of in the in the layer of if it's unclear who has to do something between me and Zoe we have to work out um who who is doing it and and which principle which principle with who's not getting the principle in the same way as as as others do and and how do we how how do we make sure so it's um I'm not saying a lot of a lot a lot falls on on me but there's still in the stage that the business is in it's still getting to a point where the the clarity it needs to be clearer and I know that and we know that but as it grows you know for for example at what point do you recruit somebody to entirely deal with all your HR stuff?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_05: Because when you start there's not a lot of HR stuff gets done and we're now as a business we we we we act we we joke about it but we've had um pretty much anything you can name we've had happen even though we've only been here three years I think we're on our we're uh you know we've had we've had poor health we've had the tragic circumstances of a member of our team dying we've had um myself ill um and so it it it's kind of it it there are things that happen and and but so now it's kind of okay there's lots of HR type stuff going on now do we is this the point where we where we recruit somebody solely to focus on solely focus on HR so there is a there's still a a a sort of a a joining of of of dots and that goes back to that structure of saying in 10 years time we know what that will look like um right now there's still shape yeah yeah yeah we know what that structure is at what point do we drop people in to their respective roles yeah so you're looking at risk compliance T and C it's all the one thing right no it isn't it's kind but if for now it's one person dealing with it but it it it it it's kind of not one person but it it it it it's kind of there's seven the people dealing with that as a one thing but it gets divided up and responsibility shared.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_05: You asked about training for advisors for example yeah it's me that's trying to make sure that's managed and they're getting the right development but it's kind of like that's probably not ideal at what point do we bring somebody in for that so it is that there's a there's a it's hard to plan exactly when that's going to be and how that's going to look but it has to sh it has to shape it a little bit.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah I do I'm I'm admitting we we we we probably need more clarity.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_04: And do you think the answer is always recruitment or do you think there is maybe benefits of outsourcing partnering with firms who are specialists in those respective areas which it may be it's too much for someone in your firm at the moment and it might be worth partnering someone for a while before you can recruit someone full time to do it because you're in this interim stage of who have you thought about yeah I mean to to to pick the HR example because I've I've done it we've had we
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: We've kind of moved a little bit from um having HR a a sort of an outsourced uh retainer type um support being there if we if if we need some help to um it's actually more specialist legal HR stuff that we need now.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_05: So we've done we've done some of that and it's kind of and then it's when does it get to the point where it's the where it's the day-to-day?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um power planning, we use some outsourcing to just try and keep the pressure off the the internal team.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's it's sort of as you grow, at what point do you I mean I I'm an example of it with William James because I I started um um two days a week.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_05: I started off it was going to be one day a week.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_05: Um and almost within a few weeks it became actually it's two days a week, and I was mainly focusing on risk and compliance and policies and and that and and that sort of thing to set the framework.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_05: Um then became three days a week, then uh now and is this comment before, yeah, it's employed in four days a week, and and it's kind of so it's sort of um it does it does it does vary as the business has grown, it's needed something different.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so and so far I think I've been able to do what was needed so far.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think outsourcing is key, actually.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it helps in terms of the cash flow position and you know not jumping too soon, but for us it also avoids group think, yeah, right?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we sit in a room, we're quite a lively team, we quite like each other.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm always conscious.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I tell them to tell me.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: But we're an echo chamber.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I I see it and I feel it sometimes where we kind of veer because someone says something, and then I'm gonna believe you because you're a great advisor.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I believe that too.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_06: And then suddenly we're all you said that somebody else believes it.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas as soon as you outsource, whether that be, you know, to an adeptly, whether it's a power, like whatever it's for, what you're doing is you're getting the benefit of an external perspective.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as that relationship is strong and kind of there's mutual respect there, then they're allowed to challenge you back, right?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't want to outsource to a power planner that's just gonna kind of get it through.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'll only outsource to someone that's gonna go, uh-uh, um.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so actually I think that it it helps tactically on the on the cash flow and the growth until you're ready to jump, but we deliberately maintain, even when it might be cheaper to employ, we deliberately maintain some of our outsource relationships because we've found a good voice there, something that is gonna help us, not drift.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: And then I suppose one thing I'd like to get both your views on is there's a difference between growing in need in additional resource and people just being busy because the processes are inefficient.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_04: So do you guys make that assessment before going out to recruit and sort of saying, actually, do we just need to have a look at our process?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: Is the process efficient?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_04: Could we make some changes to the process which would avoid us having to recruit?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Every time.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I and I I mean it's led to we've got a good team, obviously a small team.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know that they work hard, but I will still regularly show them their time task taken report and say, How can we be busy when this report tells me that you worked for seven hours last week and you were a full-time employee?
• 47:45
  unknown: Right.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's those conversations I think that are based on culture because very quickly that becomes a a not nice environment.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if the team understand I I'm not questioning how hard you work, I know you're working, but when you're not.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_04: But you have to help me.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_04: Where are we losing?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_04: We're not where are we losing the time?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is it a training need?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a logging need?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is there stuff that you're doing that I don't even know?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think the the contracting with your team, that kind of psychological safety that we've talked about in terms of help me prove that we need someone else.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: But we're not we're not gonna go and hire for the sake of it because that's dumb.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I guess you can see in that scenario that if a particular task typically took this long and now it isn't taking that long anymore, with the data, you can test that and you can see it and then challenge: is it a person, is it a process, is it something you know, in your world, it might be that SJP have created a different policy approach.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_06: So now you have to do something different.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_06: Now it takes three times as long, and that hasn't been factored in.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_06: So the same employees working the same hours, still doing all the same work, and you're looking at it saying, Why is it taking two times as long?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: In a real time, in a real-time example, um no names mentioned.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_06: Uh Fred again, yeah.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: We saw a Fred alone.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we saw a real increase in the the time it was taken to a particular type of case.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was a disinvestment or assignment.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: And like I couldn't Is it the first thing I'll do is say, is it one of my back office staff doesn't have the knowledge, so let's compare across the individuals, and you'll sometimes find, oh, okay, that person could learn from that person because they're doing it much quicker, or actually they're doing it too quick.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: That person is the one that's doing all the right steps.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that comparison.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: But in this example, it was that the all of the cases that were taking a long time were being submitted by one particular advisor.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so the reason that that process was bloated was because we weren't getting the right information at front end from one particular advisor.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: So then when you cut the data differently and you looked at cases over here, going through within SLA, everything working.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: But my one problem child.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um we again and again were going round and round, and the SLA we breached SLA on like 83% of the cases.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so you could have thought, oh, those processes take longer now.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, SJP.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have extra staff.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, just needed a slight realignment of attitude from an advisor.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_06: I guess the the interesting thing there is you touched on cutting the data, isn't it?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_06: So not falling into the trap of because I've run the data this way, it tells me this, therefore the answer is this.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_06: If I cut it a different way, and I can I can see Thomas doing this.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_06: Um, doing the I want to test what the data is telling me.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm gonna cut it in different ways.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_06: Because again, you fall into the trap of, well, this person's really quick, this person's really slow.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_06: So my go-to is the person who's really quick, but they might not be doing it properly, that's why they're quick.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_06: If you chase that test or use that as your measure, that's your benchline, the benchmark, then that wouldn't make any sense, would it?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_06: Because now everyone is the quickest, but now nobody is doing it correctly.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: We were really fast at being bad.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you look, data can tell you anything you want it to tell you because we're all biased by nature.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then it's totally useless.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: So all you can do is try and interrogate it from every angle.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_05: You're different.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_05: There's different lenses looking at it with a different lens and saying what?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_05: And that and it's so often that something will jump out if you look at if you look at it from a a different angle.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_06: Like you said, and it's not a slight on advisors, really good advisors often don't run their businesses in that operational mindset.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_06: So they're not looking at that data.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_06: They, you know, there would be some advisors who don't even know where to find that data, don't know that it exists, don't know their brains don't work in that way.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_06: That's that but they're amazing with their clients.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_06: They're amazing at getting that client to open up about what they want to achieve, why, bring out that personal bit from the client, but then they're not as good at necessarily then saying, Oh, why is my business?
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_06: I need 14 more people to do the processes.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, the process is the problem.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_06: Which may maybe not, but if your brains work that way, it's easier to see it, isn't it?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_06: And you can have the data, then you can interrogate the data, and then your brain can work in a way that says, Well, that doesn't make any sense.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, we'll cut that a different way.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_06: What does that tell me?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_06: But not everyone's brains do that, yeah, do they?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: They don't lead you down the path.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when when you're busy, when you're under pressure, when you've got um budgets, costs, deadlines, it the impulse and the easy thing can be to find the quickest answer and go with it, right?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, which might be just get more people.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's what happens.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that learned behaviour, that assumption.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Seeing that it must be that go.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_06: And I guess you would test it over a period of time because the danger is it's one pinch for one month, and now you've committed to a new employee for and significant costs and recruitment costs.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_06: And then in three months' time the problem isn't there, but you now have the commitment of a new full-time employee.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_04: And just just think about the client for a second.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, as your businesses have grown, one of the things which can sometimes regress is client service or client experience.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_04: How in your roles have you sought to protect the client experience and for that not to be negatively impacted by these ambitious plans to grow and actually seeing the growth be achieved?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_05: With I mean, we've just been talking about data and the and the management information, and it is um to some degree seeing um the time taken to complete something, if that's becomes elongated, then clients will not be happy.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um some of it is managing the client expectations and the communication to make sure that they know they they know what's happening, but it it becomes pretty obvious.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um I spoke about advisors being noisy, that it's kind of with when when the advisors get noisy, that's because their clients are not getting they're not getting stuff back to them, it means they're not going back to their clients.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_05: So it it it manifests itself in human behaviour that when when there's a problem, but at the back of it you do also have the data that says things are taking too too long now.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_05: There are things that are outstanding tasks that should have been dealt with by now.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_05: And is that because of a lack of understanding of is it an advisor or is it a lack of understanding from the administrator, or is it that the task is actually just really complicated and and we need to find a way to do that?
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_06: Well they're just so busy it's one more and they made a decision about priorities and maybe the wrong decision or or they don't know what the right one is.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_05: Over over being overwhelmed um in in terms of knowing what to do, not not what to do that day.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_05: And and and I I I'm not as Stephen Covey twice now.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_05: I mean the the sharpening the saw is a is a is a is a lovely um thing thing to do.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_05: That's often you'll find that the best thing to do is to take a break, sit go away, think about if you're feeling overwhelmed, take that break, walk away, come back again, right?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_05: What are the three most important things I've got to finish today?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_05: That's it, write them down.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_05: And when you get to the end of the day, if you've done those three, well done.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_05: That's a good day.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, move on.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_05: Go go the next day.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_05: It's the trying to take the emotion out of it that it's kind of and and I I again I'll go back to nobody's gonna die.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_05: Nobody's gonna die if I don't get that report to that advisor today.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_05: No, no more that as long as we tell the client that it's actually been delayed and the re there's a reason for it, most clients will understand that.
• 56:19
  unknown: Yeah.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have any experience in that trying to maintain that client service, Sean, as you've been growing?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I've I've bizarrely been quite lucky time-wise, um, because the consumer duties really helped us.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was managing two, if you like, day one SJP practices.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: So these are clients that uh have been with us for 20, 30 years sometimes.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the consumer duty gave a a reason um and uh initially from SJP a very clear steer on what needed to be done.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like clients had to be face to face.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: These these annual reviews, they weren't optional.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now that was that was not easy for some of our clients to hear because it doesn't feel like the way that they wanted to transact with us.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the the opportunity to recontract and establish what good service looked like for them and what they valued was really key.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we've just sort of built from that upwards over the last four years.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the other thing, do you know what?
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just trust the advisors because ultimately if I empower those individuals and they are who I think they are, they're here because they love that client relationship.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: They get a buzz out of what they achieve with and for their clients.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: That is fantastic client service.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can, as a business, get the advisors in that headspace where they're excited, they're confident, they're competent, then happy people make happy clients, right?
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just it it becomes a virtuous cycle, it all rolls down.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the two things for me have we had happy advisors while we've gone through our kind of like transition to um be a bigger business and handle the the duty effectively.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think they've always been happy, but have we communicated with them at every stage on what the benefit is, why we're doing it, that we understand what they want to achieve and sense check that we're on the journey together.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's that's where I work because if if those people trust the process and believe that MESHA is the right place, then the clients will feel it.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_04: Amazing.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_04: So uh one of the last topics I just want to focus on before we wrap up is the amount of consolidation and private equity investment in the wider um industry.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um anytime you open up a professional advisor article or money marketing, someone's bought someone or private equity form firms brought another business.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_04: And we're seeing more and more of it, which feels we have got this trend towards larger and bigger firms to benefit from the economies of scale, which that um provides.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um maybe more relevant to you, possibly Thomas, being not of the tight nature of um sharm, but interest in both of your views.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um do you think is a good thing for the industry?
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_05: Overall, yeah thinking about the client, I would say no.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_05: Um the I mean yes, people make a lot of money out of it, but when we set up our business, it it it's about it's about the client, it's about looking after a client, it's about making sure that client it gets the right um service that they achieve what they want to achieve, and that is that runs throughout the whole the whole business.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_05: Um it feels like there's almost a race to the bottom that if you pile it high and you've got loads of clients, it's they just they they just become a number, and then you've got the consumer duty that you're made to try to work out okay, how do we service all these clients that we've sort of collected along the way and it's like they're they're numbers, they're not they're not individuals, they're not they're they're not clients.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um and the idea of of William James's growth is that that there is a there is a there is a point at which William James will will be, you know, we don't want to go too far on the number of advisors um that that we have, which will then to some degree limit the number of clients that we can that we can look after because we want to retain that proper sense of looking after a client and what it means.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_05: And then the growth within the we within the group may come by saying, okay, well let's go and and let's go and repeat the let's go and repeat the trick and build another um sort of regional-sized IFA if you like.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_05: Do we go and create another create another one which can lean into all the good parts of what of what of what we've learnt from building William James?
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_05: Can you know if if we've done the hard yards on the AI and the technology and the tools and whatever, and it's kind of okay, here you go.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_05: You can retain an element of your identity, you can do certain things your way, but there are there are some things that we can really help you with, and we can build an another one.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_05: But it retain that again retains that small nature of of of words, which probably leans a little bit into the SJP approach that if it if it if if from SJP's point of view, there's lots of small businesses.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_05: Um and and and you can you can see how that works, you can see why that's been successful, that people have had a I think your self-employed advisors have got a real feel that it's their clients, is they're built sort of building a business within a business.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_05: There's a belonging there, and they will look after their clients for that reason.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that's what so I I all of that is what makes me excited to be in financial services.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_05: I don't feel it, I've not worked in the big private equity um sort of environment um for all the the places I have worked.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_05: I've not worked in that environment, but it from the outside looking in, it feels like numbers, not clients.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_05: And Sean, what's what's your view on it?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um similar, actually, uh on a very selfish level, you think, oh well, they're gonna consolidate everywhere else.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, it creates more of a unique space for us to operate in, will be differentiated.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is I guess there's some potential benefit in bigger firms, they're they're sort of under the regulator's eye more than the requirement to deliver consumer duty.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because we are not really being in the um IFA space, but I I do know some IFAs who are are just not clear on even what it is to deliver a good service.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so does a client know what they're getting when they walk in?
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there is an element of you get transparency that way, and the regulator can make sure everyone is safe.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I see that I like competition in the marketplace because I think that market forces then always deliver a competitive outcome.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm 100% with Thomas that it somehow loses the ethos of what firms like Meta and William James obviously want to do, which is provide quality advice to individuals rather than make money out of numbers.
• 1:03:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_04: And how do you think moving forward, some of the smaller firms who are also going on their own growth ambitions, but not private equity, but and not wanting to form part of those really big consolidated businesses?
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_04: How do you think those smaller firms can go about competing with those better funded, larger, consolidated businesses?
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_05: I think, I mean, everyone talks about the advice gap.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_05: So I think there, you know, there is there is probably a place, and there's an argument having been somebody that was a was an advisor for a high for a high street bank in the in the in in the 90s.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um there was a there was a a service there that was provided by them, financial advice was given, and when they all pulled out, there was this gap.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_05: So there is a place for for having the advice.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_05: The the interesting battleground will be whether technology fills that gap or whether these big people that are doing something in a simplified advice process um churn it out with the and probably the answer will be both.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_05: There'll be some of that some of that advice will be covered by both.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_05: But what I my feeling is that there will always still be that niche for those people that um that put themselves in the right place, do a really good job, get referrals.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_05: And a small firm can do that if you if you if you birds of a feather flock together, if you get if you get yourself a small group of really good clients who will introduce you to other people who think the same way, who want the same type of service, you will find that you will you'll be able to find your niche, you'll be able to find your place.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I'm not sure I can say it much better to be honest.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's at the right level of complexity for a client, um, the personal relationship is always going to win out.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just I feel like that is we're on the the cusp.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: I still don't believe that we know as an industry what AI can do for us.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to someone the other day who said they find financial services hilarious at the moment because we're all walking around talking about yeah, yeah, we want to be Netflix and not block.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Blockbuster.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned this lesson.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: But all you're doing is being blockbuster with an app.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying, here's my presence, but I've got an app.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: So before you come and drop your video back, you can do it on the app.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it wouldn't change the course of history, would it?
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot of what we are seeing.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's the same externally, um, is do your job the same and AI can save you time.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the point, is it?
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: The point is to stop, to remove the blinkers and to change the way you do things.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, look at that client experience, that advice journey, how you operate, and redesign it around the art of the possible rather than just plug in something.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: Be open to the fact that we don't know anything.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: People aren't comfortable to say, I don't know.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's vulnerable, it's exposing.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: So then they try and just carry on.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, to just stop and go, I haven't got a clue, but that's exciting, isn't it?
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because now it's a blank sheet of paper.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: Then you can see what the power of that actually could be.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of intrinsic belief that clients and financial advice will always be personal.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it comes down to we were talking this morning about the kind of the responsibility that comes with pressing the button and the fact that when you're a professional, you go, as long as you've given me the right information and we've we've had this conversation and what we're saying is right.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: When I press the button, that sits with me.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if it goes wrong, you're okay, we'll put it right.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like that clients, although AI will probably be right every time, clients are still going to be like, oh yeah.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_04: I still want to speak to somebody.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_04: But that I still want someone to have the responsibility for me and not have all that responsibility on my own shoulders.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, also, doesn't it always just sit on your to-do list?
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: No one ever makes you do it.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think for me, that kind of future, what what does the firm look like?
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: How do you compete with the the PE BAP firms?
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there's smart people that already do know, but I don't know yet.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we're we're sort of trying to scope that out, understand it, and and on the back of that, I think is where you can then build your differentiation and really kind of think about the next 10, 20 years.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_04: Brilliant.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, as before, we've finished with a couple of quick fire questions.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what has been your best decision which has helped the business grow?
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_06: You can't say your own hire.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_04: Well, they they wouldn't have made that decision, would they?
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_04: Someone else made that.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_04: Some of us did.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_05: I wasn't ready.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_04: First time in two episodes, they've both gone quiet.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the best decision I made was not to recruit in our back office when I started against challenge and stress and many late nights.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it absolutely to to not make decisions until I knew what decisions I was making.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna go back to recruitment and you've you've just gone on recruitment that I think it it is about I think changing the way we've approached recruitment.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_05: I think um we're getting better at it.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_05: I've said it was a problem that I've had I've had in the past.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_05: I think we're getting better at it.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_05: What I'm doing is there you go, there's the decision I've made.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_05: I've sort of got other people to deal with the recruitment.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_05: That's the decision.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um what is the one question which every firm owner or operations director should ask themselves before pursuing growth within their business?
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_02: How will it impact the clients?
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_02: What's the outcome you want?
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_04: They were quite succinct answers at one time as well.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_04: I wasn't quite ready.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, no, no, no, it's good.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um would you rather grow organically or by acquisition?
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather grow organically.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna agree this time.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I would rather grow organically.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sense the butt.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think you can just grow organically.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_06: Rather, but I might not be able to.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, okay.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then the last one, what is the biggest lesson you have learnt about growing an advice business?
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: People never do what you expect.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_04: People, clients, advisors, everything everybody.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_04: People.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to work in a business with people.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_04: AI's the answer then.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_04: Sean.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_05: What was the question again?
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_04: The question was what's the biggest lesson you've learned about growing an advice firm?
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um that you can never be uh fully prepared before you take action, but there is a there is a point that you should get to.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're dealing with it, it it's it's about making sure that the you've done enough.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_05: But you can't overdo it either.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_04: Brilliant.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you both very much for joining us on another episode of the um Adeptly podcast.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_04: We'd like to thank everyone for listening, and we will see you again soon.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.