Latest / Humanity Working / Bonus Episode: Reinventing Yourself, Featuring Michele Volpi

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Bonus Episode: Reinventing Yourself, Featuring Michele Volpi · Humanity Working

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hey there.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you've been uh following the podcast for a while, you'll know that we discussed how the experience of work is not great for many people today.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're at record levels of burnout and engagement is also really low as well.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I love getting people on the podcast who don't just acknowledge that but are actively doing something about it.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we've had one of those people on the podcast a couple of years back.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And to be honest, I've been interesting to get him back on ever since.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Michaelay Bulpee is with us.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Mikhay.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Paul.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just excited that I've got an excuse to get you back on because you've got a great new book out called The Career Remix.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you brought all of your experience from being a CEO of a major corporation, a life in mentoring, as well as being the founder of an organization, Talon Dev, that matched people to organizations based on real fit, not just a collection of job-specific skills.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about that book today, but also what people can do if they're really serious in building a fulfilling career.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, first off, congratulations on the book.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's literally just launched.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, how are things going so far?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so far, I think that the most rewarding thing has been to get out because it's been a hell of a job.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I realize why we need uh publishers in this world and to self-publish is uh difficult.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank God uh I had uh a lot of uh support from my mentees.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh now is the time where people um see it, buy it, read it, and hopefully give a good review.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let me give you a good review right now.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll tell you what I really like about it.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just anecdotes or observations, though, although those are certainly there, but it's practical tools.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: I would say absolutely read the book, but also read the appendices.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And specifically, I was I was giving a lot of thought in terms of the people that we advise and mentor and so on as to who I really, really advise to to read this.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I personally think it's for people where something just feels off in their career, people that are actively looking for something, or just people that are kind of unsure of their next steps.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that you gave a lot of thought to people that were early in career, but there's definitely a lot to be gained for people that are mid-career or even later as well.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in terms of the feedback that you've that you've been getting from people, is that what you found?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look, yeah, originally the book was uh written for Gen Z and millennials.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So more on the early side of the careers, even if that is more uh Gen Z, in terms of really career orientation, right?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Complementing what career services and business schools and grad schools do or try to do.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, what has come out, and that's also a reflection of what I've been doing, mentoring uh lots of people around the world, that uh you know the concepts of uh getting a fulfilling career present themselves at every step in our job life.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, you know, today I am mentoring 52 or 55-year-old senior executives, and the concepts are the same.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we spend a lot of time when we have to acquire a company at senior levels, but when it comes time to do due diligence on a new job or a new employer, um we are not as uh thorough as that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we put sometimes a stake not only ourselves, our health, our career, but also our families.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that being more intentional in terms of managing our uh life of work since we spent a lot of time is important.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we'll get into some of those themes today.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing that I will add, and I wasn't planning on talking about it today, to be honest, Michael, but I you sent me a review copy a couple of months ago, and I read it then and loved it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I read it again the other day in preparation for this discussion.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, I'll tell you, it was a strange experience because it's definitely one of those books that I would consider to be something that is worth reading more than once.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because exactly where you are in your career, exactly what you're going through at this exact moment will impact where you find the most value.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it will change according to uh according to what's going on in in the moment.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: So this isn't just a read, it's a re it's a reread.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's hard to it's hard to do that.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: The objective is really to the way we structured it, and actually I had some of my young kids to tell me, right?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Make combination of personal stories, of theory, uh, but then also give practical tools because those are uh critical for people to understand in practice what it means, and that really you can improve your work life.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what uh we have been trying to do.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so I want to start with a concept that you talk about fairly early on in the book, which is this idea of a career GPS.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're gonna we'll get into specifically what that is, but I was inter I was interested immediately by the terminology because typically when you hear people talk about careers, oh in an old school world, they'll have talked about ladders, they'll have talked about roadmaps, they'll have talked about phrases like that.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: So before we get into the specifics of what it is, why not a ladder?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Why not a road?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's uh because, first of all, life is less and less predictable.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what the ladder forgets, and I've learned it myself as well, because 10 years ago I was thinking a different way.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um believes that uh um we are all the same, that the ladder works for each one of us, and that we stay the same our entire life.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, uh, you know, speaking of career GPS, it means that it allows to run out because lots of things happen during your career journey, right?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: You end up without fuel in your car, uh, you take the wrong turn, there is traffic, uh, you feel dizzy, uh, someone in the car is not feeling well.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's understand who you are, understand uh how your car is doing, uh, check with your co-pilots, and uh understand that things are not linear anymore.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And to be perfectly honest, by mentoring a lot of Gen Zs, I see that they have a totally different view of careers than uh Boomers and Gen X uh had.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a great, it really is a great mental model because I think what it captures is almost like two things at once, right?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: One you just mentioned, right, which is that different generations have have different views on what work is like.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And there's not it's not just reflective of the fact that they're young, right?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: This young people are always different to older people, but they can be different in different ways.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: And right now they are.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, a lot of the people that are early in career are different to the way that we were when we were early.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: But the other aspect of it that you capture as well so beautifully is this idea that you yourself are not the same person that at 30 years old wanted to be the CEO of a tech company, right?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or whatever it happens to be.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so the idea of linear progression assumes that the environment doesn't change and you don't change.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And in reality, the environment does change and you do change.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, what was your sort of like main moment of realization?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because you said you felt differently about this yourself 10 years ago.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: What was your main uh period of realization when you started to realize that that's not actually how we're white?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: It started with me, right?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh CEO in a global company, and I really said, well, it's more of the same.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting bored.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh does power and does money really impact me as much as it was 20 years ago?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I need uh to change, to get and do something new, and that's uh when I quit my private equity CEO job and I started talent dev.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: That uh was uh critical for me to do something meaningful, to have impact, to prove myself into a completely different tech environment, right?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Which has also its funny stories of its own.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then you see, after that, I went more into mentoring, and today I'm writing a book.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: The needs, uh the what you feel inside change, and that happens for everyone, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Even when you're speaking about uh what you can do, the efforts you're ready for, which is one of the sides of my career triangle that I speak about in the book.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's Adri.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's jump into that.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you why don't you why don't you talk a little bit about what the career triangle is?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that's a really useful foundational thing that we can bother that we can go deeper into.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, uh the first thing that the career triangle addresses is the effort-readiness aspect of the triangle.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it is so important that we understand that at a certain point in time in our lives, we can give a certain level of effort, but that changes, right?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine that being fully relocable when you are a 20-year and a 28-year-old person, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: That opens an enormous amount of opportunities because the globe is uh basically your destination.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: But suddenly your parents get sick, or uh you have another kind of issue.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: You are not fully relockable anymore, so you are not ready for that effort anymore, uh simply because you can't, right?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: In some of the cases, it's because your preferences uh change.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very, very important that you always have in front of you your own personal fact, you adjust it and you understand uh what you're ready for and what you're not ready for anymore in terms of effort readiness, and that you understand the consequences of that, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: It means that if you may have more issues at finding certain kinds of jobs, therefore you have to reinvent yourself and compensate that with other kinds of efforts that you're ready.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, the point that I'm trying to make is that effort readiness is important and that you need to find the right employer, the right job, the right career that matches your spec.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that requires a thorough understanding not only of your personal spec, but also of the opportunity at hand.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that is one of the issues that we found through Talent Dev, because we were meeting with potential employers to do the matching.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And one of these uh people told me was the CHRO of an important uh management consulting company.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Abba Michele cannot tell candidates that they're gonna work 16 hours a day, six days a week, because then no one comes.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, come on, yeah, without using the real names, because it's a real story, well, then don't complain if after one year at least 25% of the people are not there anymore.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're preaching trust from the beginning.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the point is it's important that you understand your effort readiness, and that's in terms of that part of the career triangle, but also that you check on the other side when you join an organization or you join teams, right, in your own organization, is their uh alignment around that effort readiness.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is a key component of the matching.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: That unfortunately, today in the job market, there is still a hell of a lot of things that we have to do to improve that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the sides of the triangles, the effort readiness.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: The other one is the workplace preferences.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: What really brings the best of yourself at work?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what makes you thrive?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we get into the remote work, the flexible work, uh, the diversity of work, you know.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And also there, it is important to really have a proper matching that people, candidates, and employees perform a thorough due diligence.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that is work, and this is what I'm trying to advise in a practical manner in one of the chapters of my book, How to Perform Due Diligence on an employer.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, unfortunately, sometimes we go so fast, uh, we we move like a butterfly, right?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: We think everyone loves us, especially a recruiter tells me that I'm the perfect candidate, and we lower the guard.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then we pay for it, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: The third side of the triangle is clearly the hardwired capabilities, the traits, which is erroneously called for me soft skills because they are not so soft.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I call them hardwired capabilities, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Are you a person that has managerial courage uh that likes to be accountable for results?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have business judgment?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And how high and how low?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, is that critical for the job that you're going to meet or not?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, there's so much to go into, Michaelay, here.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think what I'll do now is kind of like focus a little bit on each of the sides of the triangle.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll start with that concept of effort readiness.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I want to tie it to something that we've seen and we've seen in our work.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are a lot of misconceptions about uh burnout in particular.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And people still to this day think of burnout as being just a some people get burned out and some people don't get burned out.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And tough people don't get burned out.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: They just they just kind of like push through.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: And what you highlight in the book, which I think is really interesting, we talked about a little bit already here, is that there's our ability to be able to push harder in a work in a work environment changes during the c during the course of a career.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: It changes as other things happen in our lives, right?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: We like to say that the the one immutable thing here is that there are 168 hours in a week.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that bit doesn't change, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: But then what demands are placed upon us within those 168 hours a week does change dramatically.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And how draining those other elements of our lives are changes dramatically, as does our ability to be able to adapt and adjust to those things.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: So the same human can be can be ready to put an enormous amount of effort into work at a certain age, less able at a later age, and more able again at a later age.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: So these things, these things fluctuate over time.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: What we've seen is that burnout happens really when those things are misaligned, where you're trying to, where you're you're basically pulling on energy stores that are that are not there, that are not there right now.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why I love your concept of effort readiness, because there's no judgment associated with it.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is just simply saying this is where you are at at this particular time, and you need a role that fits where you are at a particular time.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Would I be right in saying that you've seen that exact thing happen in in people that you're that you're mentoring?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you that uh it's not just a numerical matter of how many hours or if you are ready to be a relocated point, is also a function of your motivation.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we say that when you are really motivated, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: All the sides of the triangle um align and you find your holistic fit, then the job becomes effortless.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you know.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: It can be effortless, but then you have the other issues, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: You have a small kid at home, you have uh a disabled person at home, uh, uh someone to take care of, or you have other economic problems, and those are the constraints.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: The key is always to be thorough at self-assessing your personal spec, your career GPS, okay, and checking how it changes over time.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Typically, if it doesn't feel good anymore, is you've lost motivation, or there is a complete misalignment between your personal spec and what the job requires.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's shift to this idea of the of the fit to your workplace, the work environment, if you like.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is really this is really interesting.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think from the work you've done at Talon Dev, much of which is captured in your book, I keep I'm thinking of your book as being almost like having having you in my pocket, Michaelay.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's very it's like having a uh it's like having Michaeli as a as a mentor without uh without the one-to-one connection with him.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's terrify terrific in that regard.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: And this is probably the area where I think you've really been able to draw really well on the work you've done at Tel and Dev.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: One of the great ways in which you illustrate this in the book is you take careers or you take choices that on the surface might seem relatively similar and highlight the significant differences between that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: So let's take, for example, my world.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a I'm a startup founder, right?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: You compare and contrast being a startup founder with being, if you like, uh an independent business owner.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember the indie business.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: The exact term.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Indie business, yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like an indie business, yeah, an indie business owner.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And those are those sound very similar, right?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: They start small, you've got a lot of, you've you theoretically have a bunch, a bunch of independents, people tend to be drawn to them because of the flexibility associated with them.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: They recognize there's a bunch of hard work associated with them.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: But you highlight some some critical differences between them.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you do similar things with that in also like early careers for high achievers, things like investment banking versus, for example, management consulting.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe take one of those examples and sort of show how, even though they appear similar on the surface, they're actually very different, Angela.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you can we can use the first one that you mentioned, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is uh startup founder versus indie business or small business owner.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: As you said, uh, there are similarities.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: They start uh uh small.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Startup is meant to be scalable business.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you start small, but always with the idea of becoming big, and becoming big fast, right?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you understand that you're going to discover things uh that it may get out of control, uh, you're gonna focus a lot of time on fundraising uh and uh you know you have specific metrics to hit uh to get to a certain level of valuation, but the key concept is it starts all with the real goal of becoming big and big fast.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: The indie business starts from really the idea of being an independent business, more of the boutique mentality, is more balanced business, is one of its own and doesn't have this uh anxiety or need of size.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's hey, I just want to have a cool business that I like, that I also find my balance, and I don't need to go and scale it up and become a chain.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I can be a wonderful restaurant, it can be a wonderful hotel, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just speaking of uh service business, and I am not building it to make a chain of its own.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to remain in my hometown, have fun there, and cater to my customers to maybe a fantastic brand, uh, getting customers, but I like to have always the same customers.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that is not a lesser business.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, this idea of the indie business, the first edition of the book, was missing that.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: It was my Gen Z mentees telling me, hey Nikele, actually, our generation is very interested in that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are independent.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: We are not at the mercy of investors.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: We are not at the mercy of corporations.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we set our own watch.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is so important because this is an area I think where so many people, particularly mid-career professionals, make a make an error.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say, Mikhaile, both you and I have something in common, which is that we've worked extensively in more than one country.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, both of us in Europe, we can still call the UK Europe, can't we?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: So but so both of uh so both of us Europe and and both of us United States, and particularly here in the United States, what I will observe is that there is a tendency, and or historically has been a tendency, to upgrade certain types of career progression and downgrade other types of career progression.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, in a world of small businesses becoming, you know, determining whether a small business in quotes is a startup or whether a small business is an indie business, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because every startup starts as a small business.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: In the in that world, the idea of having something that can be the next unicorn is lauded versus the idea of having something that is uh is more of an indie business is sort of seen of as a lack of ambition of some of some sort.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: But ambition can flourish in many ways, right?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you run a restaurant, you maybe your ambition is to be the best restaurant in the country, and that might be one restaurant, right?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you can still have extraordinary, extraordinary ambition.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: The ambition just looks slightly different.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we see this same thing, and I've seen the same thing in in people that I've mentored that are kind of like mid-career, and they have a bad case of what I call top job itis, which basically means that they think of their entire life as a progression towards the idea of being the CEO of something.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: And until they've reached that point, they haven't succeeded.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, they're capable enough and they have the ability to be able to do that kind of stuff.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: So why not?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: People make this mistake a lot, and you talk about it in the but you talk about it directly in the book, that second example in the book.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: You talk about the idea that somebody can have the capabilities to have the very top job, but it's not a fit for them for other reasons.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so even when they get to that top job, they don't it wasn't what they expected because it isn't actually what was suitable for them in the first place.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do you agree with this idea that sort of like society has got us to a point where those things are lauded so much that people start to think that they need them, even though in reality they might it may not be the best thing?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I I think that uh from when we from our upbringing, right, the role models we've been presented with, but then uh those role models have been repeated in college.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And for those that went to grad school in grad schools, but also in corporations, it's all about you know, success is arriving to a certain point.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And to be very clear, I went through that discovery myself.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was on going for the ladder in corporations, and I had my CEO who told me, Michele, success is the journey.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked at him at the time, I was very ambitious.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: With that career uh ingrained mentality, I said, Come on, uh, what are you saying?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: You need to get to a goal.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: He said, No, no, success is the journey, it's your journey, and you define it based on your ideas.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: And basically, he told me, write your own book, your own career book.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the secret to happiness at one.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's yeah, it's it's extremely, extremely important and beautifully said there, McKay.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Let's uh let's go on that third part of the triangle, what you referred to as the as the hardwired capabilities.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, it's what we spend most of our life in here.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: You I know you believe that some of these are sort of there's sort of like a combination of personality traits and things like that, but then also we can call them durable skills, soft skills, whatever you whatever you prefer.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I know you don't like soft skills either.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Some of these things are reflective of who we are and need to be matched to the job that we have.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then some of these things are definitely workable as long as we practice them on a on a repeated basis.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen examples of people that have really like successfully worked on either leveraging and growing their real strengths or addressing weaknesses that were holding them back in this area, and that that's had a profound impact on their career?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've seen both the good and the bad, right?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um others and on myself.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Look, some of these Hawaiian capabilities, especially when you're young, are still extremely moldable.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it is very, very important that we explain to, especially Gen Zs, what is the importance of certain capabilities, what they are and what they are not, and uh how to master them.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: You take accountability for results, is one of the key traits of uh leadership potential, is uh what really defines a leader, not only that one, but really defines a leader.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's fundamentally different from uh focusing on efforts.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that is something that is uh can be worked on, but it starts with uh a good introspection work, self-awareness, observe yourself in daily work, in daily life, and then work on it and uh be disciplined, be accountable to yourself.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: I had a wonderful uh coach called Peter Roche.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, he he did a webinar uh at the Times of Talent Dev with me on accountability.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, you know, I still watch it from time to time, and it really influenced me in writing the book.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is a key trait, and you have to work on it.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Resilience, attention to detail, problem solving are other key elements, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, we don't have to be strong at all of them, but we can be stronger, right?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because ultimately it's not enough that uh you put effort into a job, it's not enough that you have culture fit and the workplace there is workplace preference alignment.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have those capabilities because the hard skills and experience you gain on the job.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the hardwired capabilities are regardless of a job, and you have to work on them and develop them throughout your entire career.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to be honest, right?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you are not an accountable person, so be it.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Don't go into jobs that require accountability that are right.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the situation is like where you are right now, but certainly in the United States, there's a lot of evidence that that people are actively looking for work because they are underemployed and they're not really reporting that, or they're even unemployed and not really reporting that.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: We've developed a culture where the idea of being unemployed is a is considered to be a socially negative indicator.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of people are not necessarily reporting their current status.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of those people are kind of like desperate.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so some of this stuff feels a bit first world problem-y, but I'd like you to talk about what the medium-term impacts are of doing work where there isn't where this fit isn't there.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: What happens to a career trajectory when somebody is just like attempting to do a job that they don't enjoy, they're not particularly good at, and they never will be.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then being frustrated or being fired or even not even starting, not being hired.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: My suggestion is instead of going with a shotgun approach and saying yes to everything just because you're desperate, use your desperation and your drive to make time to really look for jobs that you know they're going to fit.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So spend some time to set your own spec and saying, what is really the best fit for me in terms of career, employer, and job that fits my spec.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then go in the hunt for employees and jobs that fit your spec.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, people struggle with dedicating time to this.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: They just go, I need to send out thousand resumes out there.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Send less, send the right ones to the right target.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: That is also performing due diligence on employers.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes really do lateral thinking.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the book at all the careers that are out there.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: We were just discussing the indie business.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seriously considered that?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: You may be the master of your own destiny, doing what you like with the people that you like on due terms.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Consider that as well.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is, I think this is the heart of the practicality that is at the at the center of your book.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: In a way, there's there's actually kind of a lot of hope in it, precisely because it's realistic.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: And precisely because it's saying, you know, this is this is the world in which you in which you sit.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: You even talk about the idea that, you know, it I uh you don't use this exact term, but it's like even if there isn't perfect fit, it's better to get some fit than no fit than no fit.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And these are the things that you can yeah, it's better to the sides of the triangle than precisely the key thing is, yeah, and and first of all, define what is your personal spirit.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, the perfect world doesn't exist, but be proactive in terms of looking for something that fits rather than I found something, you know, let's may alter, change my resume to fit for that, because that's photoshopping yourself, it's not gonna last for long.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that proactiveness is a is a really important point.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like the idea that you could so, for example, if you're gonna spend eight hours a day looking for a job, it's how you spend that eight hours, right?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because yes, you could apply for for a thousand jobs over the you know over the course of three months, and that's a lot of work, right?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: But if you spend uh the same amount of work applying for a hundred jobs that you're really suited for, you're as likely or more likely to get something.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when you do get something, it will fit better.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like how you how you direct it versus measuring, like using metrics that might feel good, but actually are not gonna not gonna help you medium term.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the the book really helps people, I think, understand how to focus the effort that they need to make in order to get the career that they really need.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's all about being more strategic, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be a strategist, a theorist, but be a bit more strategic, right?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's small steps that change the world and make you happy.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Just think about you have just developed your spec.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is what you are looking for, and why you're looking for that.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let your network, the network around you know that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: So they amplify your search.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: If instead you say, Well, I'm just looking for a job, you're doing your own, people don't even know what you're looking for, they will bring you bad opportunities.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: So be in control and target and ask everyone else around you to help you target in that direction.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get distracted by the wrong things.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: Michaely, that's a great point to leave it there.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Be more strategic about this.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Use the mentor in your pocket that is uh that is Michaelay's book uh to help you accomplish exactly that.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: As I say, strongly recommend this to anybody who is really kind of thinking about their next steps and their uh and their career where no matter where they are in it.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's certainly given me a lot of food for thought.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for that.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you for your time today, McKay.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, and thank you to your team for organizing this.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if there are any questions, you know, happy to help you because that's basically the mission behind the book, trying to make uh the future of work be a better world.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Humanity Working podcast.
• 36:23
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• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: It really helps others find us.
• 36:30
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