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Did Trump's Iowa win change anything? · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: This is a new Wednesday edition of Pod Save America.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We'll be releasing three episodes a week as the campaign
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: season begins in earnest with a rotating crew of hosts
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and friends of the pod. Today on the show, Nikki
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Haley finishes third, declares a two person race and refuses
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: to debate anyone but Trump or Biden. Trump, fresh off
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: his Iowa blowout, is back in court and the reality
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: of Trump being on track to win the nomination could
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: finally set in. for Biden's coalition, and Ron DeSantis defies
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the media by continuing to exist. Joining Tommy and me
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: to break down what's next in this campaign, from the bulwark,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: host of the Next Level podcast, A Man Without a Party,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: it's Tim Miller.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Hey, y'all. I've got some really bad news for you
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: about this new three-day-a-week podcast.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: What?
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: The Republican primary's already over.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Dude, we're not saying that.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Don't you dare.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Shut the fuck up. You're adding more content, but we're not,
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: you know, my former party's not giving you any more material.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: We'll be the judge of that, Tim.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: So let's get into that. All right. I'm not ready
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: to face it. I'm a low information voter who doesn't
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: yet accept that Donald Trump is going to be the nominee.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: We talked about the Iowa results with John and Dan
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: earlier this week, but we'd like to get your overall reaction. Yeah,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I listened.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: I thought that you guys were pretty right. There were
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: some of you that– who had a– somebody had a
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: positive DeSantis take that I was not– I didn't share.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: It was Dan. Not me.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: It was Dan.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Dan's in DeSantis' defense.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: Dan was spinning for old Tiny D. Look, I just
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: want to look at Polk County. In Polk County, Donald
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: Trump had 38% of the vote.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: Ron DeSantis finished second with 27. Nick Healy's below that.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: This is where Des Moines is, the most urban part
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: of the state. This is Des Moines.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: It's the biggest city. Yeah. Tommy's been there. You can
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: have a nice Italian dinner at Luca. Okay. You can
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: get an avocado toast there. Oh my God.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: All right. I've been to Iowa dick measuring contest.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: No, there are millennials that went to college that live
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: in Des Moines. I mean, like Des Moines, this is not,
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: we're not out there in rural Northwestern Iowa and Steve
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: King country. You know, like this is not places where
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: people are consuming Bannon's War Room. Like this is, just
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: metropolitan Iowa. Donald Trump wins there by 11 points. 11
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: points was previously the biggest win in Iowa caucus history.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: So if the whole fucking state of Iowa was Des Moines,
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Trump still would have won the biggest landslide in the
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: history of the Iowa caucuses. So it's not like there
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: was a demographic group out there he did poorly with.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: It's not like that Iowa, you know, was not as non,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: it is, Iowa is non-representative, but But even in the
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: representative elements of Iowa, he dominated. So sure, there are
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: ways you could spin it and squint and say, well,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: he only got 51 or whatever when he was a
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: quasi-incumbent and was quite as good as Gore versus Bradley
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: in 99. You could spin it all you want, but
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump won an overwhelming landslide in every demographic group.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: And the Republican Party is almost united. We have one
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: good silver lining, which I can get to, but the
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: Republican Party is almost united behind a wannabe autocrat. And
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: that's pretty fucking maddening and disturbing and sad for me.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Tommy, do you have anything you've seen in the last
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: 48 hours as you've digested?
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's all passing through me. The Polk County numbers
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: jumped out at me, Tim, where Des Moines is. But
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: that was repeated in Cedar Rapids, which is Lynn County.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Trump had 43% there. Davenport, another city, Trump had 49%.
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: Dallas County, one of the fast-growing suburbs a little west
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: of Des Moines. He really He just dominated everywhere. There
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: is no spinning this result. The only spin I have, Tim,
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: or at least a piece of context, is yes, Trump
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: won Polk County, but he won it with 6,600 votes.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: So we're still talking about a tiny group of people,
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: like 110,000 people turned out in this stupid election.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: High school basketball game level turnout. Yeah, no, so there
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: are two positives. Okay, so here are my two silver
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: linings as I assess the carcass of the party that
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: I used to work for. And it's this. One is
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: barely anybody showed up at all.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Okay. Not just a, so a.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Hundred, there were 56, something like this thousand fewer voters
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: in Iowa than in 2016. So like this whole notion
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: that Trump brought is bringing in these new low info
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: voters and, you know, people who just like listened to
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Joe Rogan and they were never Republicans before. And now
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: Trump's bringing them in like that. There is no evidence
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: that that happened. The turnout was down, um, across the board.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: So I think that could speak to a lack of excitement.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: It could speak to the fact that it was cold.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: So I guess we'll learn a little more in New Hampshire.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: But there's not like an influx of red-hatted, excited MAGA
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: loyalists that showed up.
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: And it's a caucus too. By the way, Ron DeSantis
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: spent $ 4, 200 per vote in Iowa. I would like to
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: talk about Ron DeSantis' strategy in a second. But one
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: other positive really quick. The Nikki Haley voters... both anecdotally
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: and quantitatively, seem to really hate Donald Trump, like really
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: hate him and be open to voting for Joe Biden.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: If you just talk to reporters on the ground who
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: are at, you know, talking to Haley voters at the caucus,
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: if you look at the Ann Selzer numbers, if you
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: look at the entrance poll numbers, you know, like the
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: people that were there for Haley do not like Donald Trump,
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: are open to voting for Joe Biden.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: And I think that is also very encouraging. And I
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: think that speaks to potentially the a lag in the
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Biden number when you look at the national election polls,
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: that there are some of these people who are Haley
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: voters who just haven't come to terms with reality yet,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: like love it. And maybe they, like, you know, maybe
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: once they do, that might tick Biden up a point
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: or two. And so those are my silver linings for you.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was interesting in the Haley victory speech in Iowa,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: or third place victory, how the crowd was, there was
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: a kind of like, anti-Trump energy, even in the crowd,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: like kind of like an amen chorus that I think
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: was like, It gave it more of a feel of
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: a real campaign, like a real campaign with an enthusiasm
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: that you hadn't seen before. I have one more. I
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: have one more. I went looking. I went hunting. I
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: went squinting. So Politico did this analysis. Trump made big
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: gains with older voters. All right, you look at 20,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: turnout's down fine, but you look at the change from
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: 2016 to 2024. Huge consolidation, right? Across the board. Trump
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: made big gains with older voters over 2016, roughly 30
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: points better among voters over 45. But he was flat
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: with voters under 30, which may not be a sign
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: of weakness.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: You're putting Tommy and the older voters.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: I was trying to count. I was interested in your
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: credit line there.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: What a swerve. What a swerve.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Hey, hey, hey. These are three millennials.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Just three millennials having a great time.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Your hat doesn't make you younger, Tim.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: Okay, under 30. Thanks, Kerry. Under 30 and over 45,
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: what we're talking about here?
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: When you said older in my head, I was thinking
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: like elderly, but over 45.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: So roughly the same. So from voters 45 to say 65,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: He improved by about 30 percent voters over 65. He
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: also improved by about 30 percent. He's a little bit
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: better with the older voters. But regardless, the younger voters
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: flat three percent. So the the number of young voters
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: turning out for him did not improve, even though he's
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: consolidated the rest of the party. I'm going to I'm hey.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: I don't know about that.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, A, there aren't that many people under 30
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: in Iowa. I don't know. I got to spend caucus
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: night partially with the New York Young Republicans Club in
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: New York City. And I got to tell you, the
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: under 30s there were very excited about Mr. Trump and
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: very enjoying him. the defeat of the DeSimps and Nikki Haley.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: And I just, I don't know. I mean, sure. I
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: guess like on the margins, like Donald Trump's not bringing
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: in excited new young people. So I guess that's a positive.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: But I would say on the negative side is that
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: the young people who are showing up now to Republican events,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: like they are opting in because they like Donald Trump
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: with the exception of like a handful of super nerds
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: you know, who are still like reading God and Man
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: at Yale. And I love those super nerds. I love them.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: And I'm just, I'm happy. And I like, you know,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: and I can pick them out of a lineup as
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: soon as I walk into a Republican event. But that's not,
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: that's not what the party is. So, you know, that's
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: not that encouraging for me, but I'm happy that it
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: made you happy.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Has the, um, Has the demographics of New York young
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Republicans shifted from a bunch of anxious, closeted gay libertarians?
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Has MAGA fully taken over? Is it over? Is the
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: era of the gay, closeted New York Republican done?
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the demographic of the anxious, closeted gay libertarians meeting
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: up with the kind of Wall Street guy. you know, uh,
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: who is just excited about his carried interest tax cut. Uh,
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: you know, that little, that, those kind of meetups that
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: we used to have, you know, on the, on the
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: Upper East Side. Yeah, that has changed. Uh, a lot of,
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: a lot of Queens, a lot of Staten Island, um,
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: you know, uh, a lot of accents, uh, were in
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: the room and, uh, and they had a very different
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: attitude than the types of parties I used to attend.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: It sounds like cocaine is the one constant here.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: At the party but i don't know they would have
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: invited me i was i was a clear interloper.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah i was i'm really i think there's a lot
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: of people listening and only halfway through realized you were
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: talking about people from queens not drag queens which is
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: what i think i think i got that wrong yeah
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah i think there's just go.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: Off queens north jersey it's different.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Long island city, not Stonewall. I think it's sort of
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: the right.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: DeSantis went to every County. Trump won every County except
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the commies in Johnson County. Does the nationalization of politics
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: mean that the kind of campaigning that used to allow,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: as Tommy pointed out in his Iowa specials would allow
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: like social conservatives to make their mark to kind of
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: use Iowa as a place to push back against an
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: establishment candidate or a national figure. Are those days over?
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Is that just not possible anymore?
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: I mean, Tim, I thought your old colleague, David Kajal,
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: had a good line, which was DeSantis had to go
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: to all 99 counties to meet Iowa voters, but Iowans
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: from all 99 counties would travel to events to see Trump.
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: And I think that gets to the unique figure that
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: he is in our politics because of his celebrity and
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: the cult-like attachment from the base. So maybe this is
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: a one-off. That said, I mean, I'd like to know
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: what you think. If I was advising a 2028 candidate,
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: let's say, running in the 2028 primary, I would probably
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: advise them to spend a whole lot of time on
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: MSNBC and other progressive outlets. Because what I've heard in
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: the last two cycles is that the national narrative was
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: far more important than anything these candidates were saying in
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: the town hall meeting in Waukee.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: And I start to wonder if it's ever true. You know,
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: like Donald Trump, I do think, upended a lot of,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: you know, conventional wisdom that was never really challenged about
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: these sorts of things. Like, did Iowans ever really need
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: to see somebody in their living room? Or were they
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: just looking for somebody to give them a thrill up
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: their leg? And, you know, Donald Trump did that. And
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: other people could have done that Donald Trump's way had
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: they tried. I guess we won't really know. But I don't,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: I think that a lot of that, you know, sort
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: of early state narrative is you know, kind of nostalgia
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: that we have for that kind of campaigning. I just,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: I don't know that it ever was really mattered that much.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: And I think that now, if you look ahead to
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: 2028 in a presidential race, the way people are consuming
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: news and information these days, people know these candidates so
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: well now, right? I mean, you know, you know, the
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: types of supporters they have, you know, you know, the
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: social media influencers that support them, you know, you get
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: to listen to your favorite fucking podcasts about it. The
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: way that people consume information about the presidential primary is
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: very unlike the way that they consume information about other
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: political campaigns. And so I think that if you look
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: at the DeSantis campaign, they ran a campaign that might
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: have worked if it was for a state Senate race,
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: or maybe even a Senate race in a state like Florida,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: where you don't, you know, have an expectation of knowing
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: a lot about the various candidates. Like that was not
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: going to be the case when you're running against Donald Trump,
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: who these people like have shrines to him in their home, right?
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Like they've been following him for a decade now. And
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: to think that like, if you were going to put
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: one door hanger on somebody's door, or you're going to
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: run a 30 second ad about how great of a
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: job you did keeping the beaches open during COVID. And
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: then people are going to be like, okay, I'm for
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: you now. I just think it totally misunderstands how people
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: consume information about a presidential race now, particularly one where
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: you have somebody like Trump in it. So to me,
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: I don't, yeah, I think that all of that was
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: just a waste. And like Ron DeSantis was just totally,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: you know, Ron DeSantis' donor's like just lit seven figures
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: on fire. I know it was 35 million on TV,
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: but then all of the ground game, like all of
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: that was for nothing.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but his big consultant, Jeff Rowe, got paid. And
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: that's what's important. Yeah, my God.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's hard to tell, right? It's an
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: overdetermined situation because you have Donald Trump as a unique figure.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis was, I think, shockingly inept. I remember we,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: you know, when Dan on the pod, one of the
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: very early pods when Ron DeSantis was just announcing and,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: you know, all these conservatives were lining up behind DeSantis
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: as like the one true hope. And Dan was like,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: nobody's heard him speak. No one ever has heard him
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: give a speech. Let's see what happens if he gives
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: a speech. And it's like, oh, it's it's fucking terrible.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if retail politics is dead, but
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: I do think that when your candidate can't communicate with
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: voters or give a speech, you should rethink it. whether
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: that person should go to 99 counties and do a
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: lot of town halls.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: I guess, but look at the Democratic side in 2020.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, Joe Biden did win because of retail politics.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: No, he won solely because of electability.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, electability and narrative. Like all of those voters, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: you guys know this better than me, but all those voters,
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: they jumped from, it's the same people. Like they're for
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Warren and then they're for Pete and then they're for,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: like obviously each candidate had their super fans, but if
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: you just look at the numbers of People are just
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: very educated about a primary race now, and they're making
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: decisions in a very nuanced way that 30-second TV ads
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: and door knocks are just not the same.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: But Biden doesn't win Iowa, right? It's what makes possible
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: for someone like Pete or Bernie to win Iowa. It's
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: what makes possible for someone like Obama to win Iowa.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I think when you have someone like Trump whose support
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: is wide and deep, it doesn't make sense. If you
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: reverse it, right? If you have someone like DeSantis as
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: the presumed national figure but whose support is shallow because
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: people haven't really gotten to know him. And you have
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: an insurgent candidate with political talent in a place like Iowa.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: I just, I just don't know. I don't know whether
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: to learn the lesson or make sure we don't overlearn
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: the lesson.
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about New Hampshire. Tomorrow night's ABC
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: GOP debate was canceled due to a lack of interest.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: On Tuesday, Nikki Haley said she wouldn't debate unless Donald
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Trump or Joe Biden would join her. Trump continues to demur.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: DeSantis is willing to participate. He said Haley was too
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: afraid to debate him. DeSantis then doubled down on this
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: at a CNN town hall where he said this.
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: I'm the only candidate. that actually agreed to come to
• 16:08
  Speaker 6: New Hampshire to debate.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: And what does that say?
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: We have four candidates for president now, Joe Biden, Donald Trump,
• 16:14
  Speaker 6: Nikki Haley, and me. I'm the only one who's not
• 16:17
  Speaker 6: running a basement campaign at this point.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Tommy, what do you think of this argument?
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: I think he sounds like a whiny loser, first and foremost.
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: I'm a little bit torn on the skipping the debate question.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: I watched the last debate on CNN, unfortunately, the Haley
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: versus DeSantis one-on-one debate. I think that, yeah, I think
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: the takeaway from anyone who watched it was I disliked
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: both of them by the end. It was constant accusations
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: of lying. Haley was dropping her stupid, like Ron lies
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: website at all the time. Like my, my, um, my
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: bellwether on a lot of these things is when Hannah
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: walks through the room to the kitchen to get something
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: before walking back into the bedroom. So she doesn't have
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: to listen to this crap that I consume all day,
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: every day. if she comments on it or not. And
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: she was just like, this is horrible. So I don't
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: know that that debate being repeated would have benefited anyone.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know if Hannah is a target New Hampshire
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: primary voter.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, you know, we'll see. We might move.
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: So that said, the debate was going to be broadcast
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: on WMUR, which is far and away the biggest TV
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: station in the state. It was an opportunity to reach
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: a lot of people and do it in a high
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: profile way at this moment when people are making up
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: their minds. So if you went in and had a
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: great debate, it would be a an excellent strategic choice.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: But look, would I want to debate a guy at
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: 4% when I'm actually trying to beat Donald Trump?
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: No. Tim, what do you think? I mean, I just
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: find it, DeSantis is just always casting about for some
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: kind of line, some kind of hit, but it never
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: fits into any kind of broader message he's trying to deliver.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Now Nikki Haley's a basement candidate. Who is that for?
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Who finds that plausible? Especially because She says no to
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: this debate. And what does she get instead? She gets
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: a CNN town hall, which, you know, I don't who
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: who in New Hampshire is going to be turning on
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: a CNN town hall to make this decision? I don't know.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: But she's not she's not the basement people.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know I'm brought on to give my expertise
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: with Republicans, but I got to tell you, I don't
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: understand why Ron DeSantis is running. I don't know that
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: Ron does. So I just I can't answer that. Like
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: I just he has he's not given a rationale. And
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know what he didn't give a rationale before Iowa.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: And he certainly doesn't have one now. So it's kind
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: of unclear what his motivations are. Nikki Haley, on the
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: other hand, not debating. I'm of two minds of it.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: On the one hand, it's like, okay, I'm okay with
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: you not debating Ron DeSantis and giving him oxygen when
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: you're trying to make this a mono, a woman-o thing
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: in New Hampshire. That's fine, strategically. But do you have
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: to do something? What is she doing instead? And if
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: the answer is, going back to the last question, oh,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: I'm going to do some town halls in Peterborough, and
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to say the same talking points I've
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: been saying since October. Well, it's like, well, you lost
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: by 32, right? In the first contest. Okay. So you
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: have to do something to change it up. And while
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: her speech, I agree, love it, there was some energy
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: in the room. Again, she didn't make any new news.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: She didn't break any new ground. You know, your old
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: boss Tommy Plouffe was like ranting the other night in
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: MSNBC about how like she leaves Iowa and then doesn't
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: land in New Hampshire and do an event that morning.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Like great news. She doesn't do anything. So it's like, like,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: where is the fucking urgency? Or like, you don't have
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: to debate around the Santas if you don't want, but
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: I give, I give me some, this is it. Like
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: it's all over in six days. Right. So I give
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: me something punch Trump in the mouth, either rhetorically or physically,
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: or I don't, you know, I don't know what exactly
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: it is, but, but she has to do something to
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: change things up because she's not winning New Hampshire right now.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: I think that Christie obviously gives her a boost. but
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Trump is still in the high 40s, and she's got
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: to win.
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: Haley didn't event yesterday. Dave Weigel, a great reporter at 704,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: tweeted this. It lasted 23 minutes, and she did no
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: Q & A. It's just like a bizarre way to
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: spend your finals. Obama's schedule between Iowa and New Hampshire
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: was a frenetic pace.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: It was a bus tour.
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: It was tons of events in the North Country or
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: in Southern New Hampshire and the Boston media markets and
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: in the coast.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: How'd he do in New Hampshire?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I don't remember.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: It was closer than what we've been seeing this time.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: He should have skipped the debate. That's the answer here.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: He should have skipped the debate.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Or maybe Nikki Haley should cry. And I'm kind of like,
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: I'm kind of being snarky, but I'm kind of serious.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Crying would maybe, well, probably, it's probably a different electorate.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I might cry.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: Different electorate.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Listen, I cry. I cry every night, and I'd like
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: to see politicians cry more.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I'd like to see Krista Nunu cry, too.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Well, Krista Nunu, who is the governor of New Hampshire
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and endorsed Nikki Haley, was doing a round of interviews saying, like,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Nikki Haley's here. She's answering questions. She's showing up. Trump's
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: just dropping in on his plane, which, A... is deja
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: vu of the argument that didn't work in Iowa. But
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: B is a shitty thing to introduce a candidate who
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: then leaves without taking any fucking questions. It doesn't make
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: any sense. So a poll by American Research Group showed
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: that Haley and Trump are both at 40, which was
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: a rise from 37 for Trump and 33 for Haley
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: as the race consolidated, the Christie bump, as you said.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Though a new poll out this morning from Suffolk and
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the Boston Globe had Trump at 50 and Haley at 36.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Ron's still cruising in the Cinque Digis. Uh, Haley has
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: spent $ 26 million on ads, Haley plus her packs and
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: to Trump's 12 million. She's doing this electability argument. Uh, Tim,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: it does seem like she's sharpened her rhetoric a bit.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: She's been, she's, I'm not, I'm not a vote. I'm
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: not a Nikki Haley vote. I'm just saying like, let's, let's, I,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: she had, she went, she made the age argument. She
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: called them both nearly 80. Trump does not like to
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: be referred to as being nearly 80. Tommy hates it too.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Love it. She sharpened, I guess. From what? It's like
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: she had a dull spoon. It's a spork.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: It's an approaching spork territory.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: The ad thing is what drives me crazy. She spent
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: $ 26 million on ads to provide no meaningful contrast to
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump. Look, I'm not asking Nikki Haley to go
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: full bulwark Trump derangement syndrome and start crying about the
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: state of the democracy. I mean, I would love that.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: I might go up and volunteer for her if she
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: did that. I don't think that would help her in
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: the end. You could look at Chris Christie's number. But
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: you do have to offer a contrast with Donald Trump
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: that is meaningful, that tries to get people to change.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Or you have to change the electorate. Or you have
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: to bring new people into the electorate. My colleague Sarah
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Longwell's focus group, I was just watching focus groups of
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: these people in New Hampshire, which are the undeclareds. And
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: they don't even like her. And it's like she's got
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: to either motivate those people to turn out to vote,
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: undeclared types that would have been for Christie, and change
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: the makeup of the electorate. Or she's got to win
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: over some of the soft Trump voters, some of the
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: DeSantis voters. By offering a legitimate contrast with them. She's
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: doing neither of those things. She's doing nothing.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: She's betting on the demographic change, right? Independent voters account
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: for more than 343,000 of all registered voters in New Hampshire.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: There's about 268,000 registered Republican voters in the state.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: But what is her.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Message for them, the undeclared voters?
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: I'm not done.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: She's making an electability argument. She does this thing where
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: chaos follows Trump around, which is obviously embarrassing. Uh, but she,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: you know, she made this argument in her speech. She's
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: making it in her ads that, uh, these are both
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: candidates of the past. They're both focused on grievance, which
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: is her way of saying Trump is focused on grievance
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: because whatever. But, uh, and then she makes selectable electability argument,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: which is a strong argument, right? That like between Trump
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: and Trump and Biden is a toss up, but I
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: went in a landslide, right? That is an argument.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: It's an argument.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Here's why it's not a strong argument. There are two
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: groups of people that are voting in New Hampshire. One
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: is the undeclared voters. Like we're talking about in the moderates,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: my people.
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: Most of them aren't even sure they want her over Biden.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: So electability isn't that strong of an argument for them.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Most of them are kind of toss-up voters in a
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Haley-Biden thing. And then the other group of people, the Republicans,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: as we saw from the entrance polls in Iowa, they
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: think Trump won. They think Trump is still the president.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: So you can't make an electability argument against somebody that,
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: you know, has diluted the entire voting base into thinking
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: that he is an invincible winner that was robbed by
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: the deep state. So, you know, again, if we had
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: a time machine, if we went back to the end
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: of the midterms in 2022, and if her and DeSantis
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: had actually run a campaign and spent those $ 50 million
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: they've spent on TV, $ 100 million, and on TV reminding
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: people that Donald Trump's a loser and that he lost
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: in 2020 and that he cost them the 2022 midterms
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: and that they are both winners because Ron won in
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: Florida and because whatever, polls show that people like her,
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: then okay, then yeah, sure. I think that would have
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: been a good argument in December of 2022, but it's
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: January of 2024.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: The Suffolk poll only has her up six on Trump
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: among independents, so not great.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: The Trump.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Well aware of the divide between the independents and Republicans,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: had this to say about Nikki Haley. The era of
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Gracious Trump didn't even last 12 hours.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Shocking.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: I thought that when he brought Brickman on stage, I knew.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: It was maybe a sign that Gracious Trump.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Was going to survive. Let's see what he said about
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Haley now that he's seen her speech in Iowa.
• 25:33
  Speaker 7: As you know, Nikki Haley in particular... is counting on
• 25:38
  Speaker 7: the Democrats and liberals to infiltrate your Republican primary.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: You know that.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: That's what's happening.
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: You have a group of people coming in that are
• 25:47
  Speaker 7: not Republicans, and it's artificially boosting her numbers here, although
• 25:53
  Speaker 7: we're still leading her by a lot. You know, as
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: you know, I watched her speech last night. I thought
• 25:58
  Speaker 7: it was inappropriate. But because it's bad for unity, it's
• 26:02
  Speaker 7: bad for the party, what she said. But you'd almost
• 26:04
  Speaker 7: think she won. She came in third, and she lost
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: her Not a particularly great candidate, obviously, as you've seen.
• 26:10
  Speaker 7: She lost to somebody that beat her by about two
• 26:13
  Speaker 7: and a half points, Rhonda Sanctimonious.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Tim, too subtle? Or do you think voters are going
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: to understand what he's trying to say?
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: I fucking hate him so much, guys. I don't know
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: if you know that. I just I really hate him.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: And so I have to say that before I say
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: the next thing, which is like he had a point.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: Every once in a while, the fucking asshole has a
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: point and, uh, you know, he's, he's right on both points.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: Ron DeSantis was a terrible candidate and she still lost
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: to him. She needed to beat him to get the
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: momentum going into New Hampshire. And it is also true
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: that in order to beat Trump in New Hampshire, she's
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: going to need undeclared voters and Democrats to cross over
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: and vote for her. And this is what gets us
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: to the broader point about why this is also frustrating
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: is like. Undeclared voters and Democrats aren't a path to
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: winning the Republican nomination, right? So even if that does happen,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: even if Nikki Haley does win because there's a surge
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: of undeclareds in New Hampshire, and it's like, then what? Great. Congrats.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: South Carolina's going to be tough.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about the then what. All right. So
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: you're Nikki Haley. What is the story you're telling yourself
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: about how winning New Hampshire creates a path to winning
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the nomination? Because there's a story. They are telling that story,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: at the very least, to each other. Yes. Okay.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: Here's the story I can tell you. It goes, it
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: goes something like this. It goes, I win New Hampshire
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: and I have a glorious victory and I get to
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: bask in the lights of all the cameras and people
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: around the world will get to see me and I
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: will feel very great about myself. And then immediately when
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: I give that speech, Donald Trump's armor of invisibility and
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: winning this will be punctured. People will take another look
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: at this race. And people will start to say, well,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: maybe Donald Trump is not invincible after all. And the
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: whole dynamic will change. And then there'll be a month
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: to South Carolina and Donald Trump will be going to court.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: And people will say, well, man, did you know that
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump's been indicted four times and has 91 felony counts?
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: And he's not a winner anymore. Maybe I should reconsider
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: Nikki Haley. And then we'll get to South Carolina. And like,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: that's what they're telling themselves, which is a preposterous fantasy.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Or maybe they're hoping for, you know, the hamburger from heaven.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: um that uh is donald trump that is the end of.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: That's tim's code for death yeah the listeners who don't know.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: Or maybe oh the other thing is maybe it's like
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: well uh if i win that allows me to stay
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: in long enough to accrue some delegates and you know
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: if donald trump goes to jail and jack smith saves
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: us then this summer in milwaukee i'll have some delegates
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: to horse trade with i like But I think all
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: of that is very secondary. I think the main thing
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: is just this this kind of fanciful theory of the
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: case that if Donald Trump is defeated, then that will
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: somehow change.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: If it becomes a two person race and she sticks
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: around and the some sort of larger dynamic shift happens
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: around electability plus conviction that she'll be the person standing there.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: You know, the Seinfeld that, you know, being after a breakup,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: like first you go from being there for you to
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: just being there. It's like the Seinfeld breakup strategy. You
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: just got to be there when the breakup happens. So, Tommy,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: the DeSantis team is now saying they're hoping for a
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Haley loss in New Hampshire so that he has a
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: narrow chance of staying in the race through South Carolina.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I guess that involves Haley dropping out. If she does
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: and she gets out... does it matter for Ron?
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: No.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: He secretly wants her to win New Hampshire so he
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: can get out and end his baton death march of
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: humiliation across South Carolina for a month. Tim, you've probably
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: experienced this in a visceral way, uh, with Jeb or
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: other candidates. I mean, there is nothing worse than continuing
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: a campaign once you know, it is over.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: It's horrible.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: And which is why it's, it's, uh, kind of a
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: question about why he's still doing it. Uh, you know,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Uh, I think there's some inertia in this, um,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: having people around him, but it's brutal. Uh, it's a
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: real long slog in the, in the time between New
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: Hampshire and South Carolina is long, like a month, a
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: month is forever. In a, in a, in a death
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: March campaign, like his every hour is painful. You know, um,
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: I had an old boss I used to work for
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: that was like, he signed up for bootcamp and he
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: was like, I didn't, didn't realize how long bootcamp could
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: be until I, I was, I had to experience it
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: one second at a time. And that's kind of like
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: how it is on a losing campaign. It's just every
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: second is painful. So I don't exactly know why they
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: would want to stay around for a month. JVL at
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: the Polar, he talked about, he wrote about it, how
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: they've achieved catastrophic success. Yeah. Which is like they're doing
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: well enough that they have to stay in. And so,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if he's necessarily rooting for Nicky, but,
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: you know, he has no rationale. I mean, you know,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: all of the great and good supporters of him on
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: the internet, Clay Travis, Tommy Lahren, you know, all your favorites.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: they're all telling him to get out. Even his troll
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: posters have abandoned him.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: His donors will too soon. His staff will tell him,
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: preserve your dignity, preserve your political future, endorse Trump as
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: soon as possible. The pressure is going to be just enormous.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was some donor. After DeSantis said that his
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: ticket to New Hampshire had been punched, some donor told
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: a reporter that, yeah, it's in the back of the
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: plane and it is definitely next to the bathroom at best.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about what this could mean for Biden.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: For a lot of Americans, not our dear listeners, but
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: for a lot of other people, it hasn't actually sunk
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: in that a Trump-Biden rematch is on the horizon. An
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: AP poll from mid-December found that just 20% of respondents
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: were paying attention to politics. And according to recent reporting,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: internal polling from the Biden camp showed that around 75%
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: of the campaign's targeted undecided voters do not believe Trump
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: will be Biden's opponent in November. So, you know, Boy,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: we got a surprise for them. They're not going to
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: like it.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: There might be some of.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Your listeners still holding out hope for jail.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I'm one of them. Oh, there's that. Yeah,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: there's that part of it. Jail thing would be cool.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Tommy, Biden's weaknesses exist in the present. He is old.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: He is the incumbent. People have frustrations that exist right now.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Trump's weaknesses are more perspective, the danger he poses to democracy,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the possibility he might be convicted of federal crimes, the
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: damage his policies might do. Does Trump's emergence as the
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: nominee change this dynamic?
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, we all better hope so. I mean, Trump,
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: his favorability in the 538 average is still 10 points underwater.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: And that's having been sort of off the stage for
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: a while. Now, Biden's is worse. Biden is 15 points underwater,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: but he's been in the shit actually running the country.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: So the hope is that The return of Trump will
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: wake up Democrats in particular, bring back folks who maybe
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: drifted away for Biden for whatever policy reason.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's Gaza. Maybe it's something else. And steady the ship.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: I know I think Sarah Longwell, your co-host over there
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: at The Bulwark, thinks that we might be at the
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: nadir of the Biden polling era.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Is that a fair characterization?
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she's an optimist though. I bring a little bit
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: more of the rain.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: To the discussion.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: We'll make it rain, Tim.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Well, to me, I think the most optimistic case is
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: kind of like that maybe a low Biden approval rating
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: doesn't actually matter if the Trump approval rating continues to
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: get lower, right? That would be my optimist case. I
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: always compare it to the McCrone-Le Pen race in France.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: Like McCrone's popularity was just as low as Biden's, even worse.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: Tommy knows about this on his other highly rated podcast,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Pod Save the World. He discusses the Uruguay, the upcoming
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Uruguay elections. What the fuck is that all about?
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: It was Ecuador and Guatemala.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: And he looks good doing it. You make a point, Tim.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: He does.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: I love that. I'm a world out. Anyway, Le Pen
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: and Macron, I think, is the Biden model, right? Macron
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: is unpopular, but they're like, we don't want the crazy person.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: The problem that I have is I worry about Trump
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: seeming not as insane as we all know him to be.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: I think that there's a big checkout factor right now,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: another race between these two guys. A lot of, you know,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: more casual voters are just, I think, for good reason,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: going to want to not fucking pay attention to the rerun.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: And Trump, when you see him, while Tommy was suffering
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: through Nikki and DeSantis' low-rated debate, I watched Trump on Fox. And, like,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: I know... You know, the listeners know that he is
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: a total lunatic that has lost his mind and has
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: dictatorial aspirations. But he can kind of, he's still a
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: reality TV host, right? He can still kind of fake it.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: And if you're only half paying attention and you kind
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: of think that he's, that is the part that worries
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: me the most. That I think that if the theory
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: of the case for Biden rests on the fact that
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: people change their views of the economy because the economy
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: is getting better, fingers crossed, and that people come to
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: terms with Trump's lunacy. I think those are rational things,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: but I don't know that, that necessarily that everyone's going
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: to have a rational reaction. Yeah.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: We're sort of counting. I do like, you know, like Tim,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: if I like whispered in your ear, um, you have
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: to be a Bernie bro for the next 45 minutes
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: or you're going to be in jail for the rest
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: of your life. And I pushed out on stage. I think,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: I think you'd be convincing, you know, I think you
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: could get it done, but, uh, But I do think
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: it's like.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: Millionaires and billionaires. It's like, if you ever hung out
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: with a rich guy, I could just channel all my
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: rage against Bill Ackman into a 30-minute thing.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I'd listen to that.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Tommy Connolly right there.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Didn't know he did voice work.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so it's like there's the parts that we
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: can't control, one of which is, does Donald Trump understand
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and can he maintain enough discipline to be normal enough
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: lowers the way in which he is sort of unacceptable
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: to the majority of Americans when they're paying attention. I
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: think the other part that's hard to know and hard
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: to control for is, are Biden's liabilities surmountable, right? We
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: go into this thing, we know that if it's assuming
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: it's Biden-Trump, these are two candidates that come to the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: table with new weaknesses. And we're betting on the fact
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: that Biden's weaknesses are surmountable and Trump's aren't. And I
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: do think like that is just an uncertainty, right? Our
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: job is to make the Biden weakness insurmountable. Our job
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: is to make sure that Trump seeming less crazy and
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: more energetic does not make Biden's age an insurmountable problem.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: And on the other hand, our job is to make
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: sure that Trump's efforts to seem normal does not allow
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: for voters the fact that he did an insurrection, overturned
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade, would be far worse than he was
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: in the first term. And in the first term, he
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: caused incalculable damage to the country, that that does not
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: fade enough for people to get over it and view
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: them both as sort of unfit.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: And this will be my rant throughout the year. But
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: since you're saying that it's your job, it kind of is.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: And I appreciate that. And it's my job and it's
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: our job to work with the people whose job it's
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: really going to be to to just get in the
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: face of all those folks and make them know how
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: unacceptable Trump is, is Mike Pence and Chris Christie and
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: John Kelly and Jim Mattis, like all these people that
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: have let us down before and fucking Bill Barr and
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: his jowls, like all these people that I like. I
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: think they're going to play an absolutely crucial role here
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: because you just can't– I think that in the same
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: way that the primary campaign, I said the TV ads
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: were totally worthless. I just think that there's going to
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: be a cap on the ability of TV ads to
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: get the job done. Hopefully the Biden people can break
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: through and I do think that there are a lot
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: of things people don't know about Trump or that they've
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: forgotten that can be pushed through paid. But it's going
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: to take people that can be surprising and can break
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: through and can shake the Wall Street Journal reader from
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: their torpor and be like, really, if you're worried about
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: the stock market, really, an autocracy is not the way
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: to go.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah. One more optimistic point, too, is I
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: think in the same way that– so the normies, they
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: don't believe– that they're not on board with Donald Trump
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: really won the election. But I also think sometimes we
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: may undercount that in a country that does not trust
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: its institutions, institutions that have incredible amounts of trust are
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: like the military, law enforcement. And that for people that
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: aren't paying attention, the idea of a president being elected
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: after being on trial and convicted, I do think, maybe
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: even more anathema to people than we're currently understanding, especially
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: because we are people that pay attention. We believe that,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: but I think we've been so knocked around by the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: way in which Donald Trump defies gravity that maybe we're
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: not seeing that like that actually is. And we see
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: it in the polling. Right. There are plenty of voters,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: including Republicans, who say being convicted makes you unfit. Being
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: convicted makes you unacceptable. But I think we've been so
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: kind of bullied by reality that we're not we're not
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: we're not sure we can trust it.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that number was surprisingly high at the Iowa entrance poll.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: That was like another silver lining, and that spoke to
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: the silver lining I gave. The Nikki Haley voter seems
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: to really not like this guy. And if 30% of them,
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: even if it's not 30, let's say that that's double
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: the reality, and it's 15% of people who, if Donald
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: Trump is on trial and he's convicted or he looks
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: to be convicted, they would not vote for him. I mean,
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: that's a death knell, right? So I do think for Trump,
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: I do think that that is... You know, maybe some optimism.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: I can see a little light in the cloud for you.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Tommy, last night, Ron DeSantis said this in his town hall.
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: If Donald Trump is the nominee, the election will revolve
• 40:29
  Speaker 6: around all these legal issues, his trials, perhaps convictions if
• 40:33
  Speaker 6: he goes to trial and loses there, and about things
• 40:36
  Speaker 6: like January 6th. We're going to lose if that's the
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: decision that voters are making.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Based on that.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: From his lips to God's ears, a lot of conversation
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: about the legal jeopardy Trump is in and what a
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: threat it poses to his political viability. Why is he
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: spending so much time in court when he doesn't have to?
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: It's so strange.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: It's really strange.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: He went to the jury selection for his second defamation trial,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: time he could be spending in New Hampshire.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: And nearly got thrown out, I believe. He was threatened
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: with expulsion from the civil trial because he repeatedly ignored
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: warnings to keep quiet.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: While E.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: Jean Carroll was testifying. I mean, he has one speed, right?
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: This man just attacks everyone all the time. That includes
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: political opponents. It includes disabled journalists. It includes gold star families.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: Remember the Khazir Khan fight?
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, playing the hits.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, playing the hits in 2016.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: So I guess I'm not surprised he's in court. I
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: don't think that makes it smart or savvy. I don't
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: know what people will think of it. I mean, I
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: think Trump also intuitively knows that we live in a
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: misogynistic country where victims are often blamed and he's going
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: to try to bludgeon her in the court of public
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: opinion as part of a political strategy. So that's, I
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: assume what he's doing.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I do, I think part of this
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: is pathological Trump and there's no sense kind of getting
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: inside his brain. It's not a healthy place to be,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: but I think that as a strategy, I do think
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: that he, and hopefully this is a mistake and hopefully
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: for ones around DeSantis is right. And I do think
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: he sees himself, despite the fact that he's the former
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: president still as like, I'm an outsider against all of
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: these pencil headed elites that you don't like. And so
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: for him, some of the court thing is like his
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: own animus against Gene Carroll or against the guy that
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: are saying that he wasn't as rich as he was.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: But some of it I do think is this show
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: that he's putting on. Like I am the outsider. I'm
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: the businessman. I'm taking on all these people that you hate.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: And so I think that is like the logical side
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: of it for him. And, And that is obviously working
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: in the Republican Party to tremendous effect. I think it's
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: probably unlikely to work in the general election, but I'm
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: not ready to be absolutely 100% sure about that.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's more feral than genius, but it
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: is part of also making all these different cases a
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: kind of like miasma of I'm under attack. A potential
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: juror in the defamation case said they were a Pond
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Save America listener, Tim.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, really?
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the judge seemed not to have ever heard
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: of it and wondered if she said, God save America.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: We've got to fix the fucking judiciary.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: We've got to find this person.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: I have to tell you, my favorite fact about the
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: previous Gene Carroll jury was that there was a Tim
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: Pool listener. And so every time anybody, any of the
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: right-wingers and the MAGA folks bring up, they're like, oh,
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: these liberal juries in New York and D.C. And they're coming,
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: you know, obviously, like the deep states. I was like, no,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: a fucking Tim Pool listener. listened to the evidence, and
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: they came away with the view that Donald Trump was liable.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: Super right-wing YouTuber, former kind of lefty guy, got famous
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: covering Occupy Wall Street, went full horseshoe, and now just
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: wears his little beanie and does events with Vivek Ramaswamy.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: That's where the case, Vivek Ramaswamy, and that's where this person.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: So have faith in your fellow Americans.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Speaking of, last question, because I did not want you
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: to leave before you had a chance to address this.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Marco Rubio endorsed the mourning of the Iowa caucus. Ted Cruz,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: last night, Sean Hannity endorses Donald Trump. Couldn't wait any longer.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: What do you make of it?
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: These people are such little fucking bitches. I just hate
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: these people so much. They're so cowardly. And I just,
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: I had to tell you, it wouldn't have made me
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: any happier. And you could have had me on an April...
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: after the primary is over and after Marco endorsed him
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: and I would have done the same rant about how
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: he's a coward and a supplicant and how embarrassed he
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: and his family should be of him. But it's especially
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: embarrassing now. We know that Marco Rubio would rather have
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis be president. We all know that.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: The fact that none of these people had the cojones
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: to actually try to challenge him is so maddening and
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: it's so enraging and like gets in one that I
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: will never forgive any of them for it. And like
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: the Nikki Haley, who I don't really like, as you
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: could tell from this podcast, but would obviously be better
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: than Donald Trump. The fact that her endorsers are just
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: Chris Sununu and Larry Hogan, two kind of Tim Miller, squishy,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: moderate Northeastern Republic. That's all she has. Like none of
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: these other people have, have at least tried to try
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: to beat Donald Trump. Like, It just pisses me off.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: And it really sucks.
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: Imagine having been in the Capitol on January 6th, personally
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: under siege, and then going out a couple years later
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: and endorsing the man who sent that riot to try
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: to kill you.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Good stuff.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: For no one, you don't even have to yet. It's
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: not even a binary choice. And Mike Lee's out there going, well,
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: it's a binary choice. It's like, it's not a binary
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: choice yet. You could have been an Asa Hutchinson supporter
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: up until two days ago.
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: There was some reporting, I can't remember what it was, that,
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: I think it was Puck, That Trump's team is telling
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: donors like you need to get on board now before
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: this big event I have coming up at Mar-a-Lago. I'm
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: sure there's a similar call going out from his political
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: staff saying you need to endorse before New Hampshire or
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: else you will be on some sort of shit list. Now,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying that's compelling. I find that pathetic.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: But I assume that's why these are all kind of
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: rolling out now.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: Nobody's going to primary Marco Rubio. All these people, I'm
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: not saying you're excuse-making for them, Tommy, but that is
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: the excuse-making that people give. They're like, oh, I called
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: Marco Rubio's consultant. I was like, why is he doing this?
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: They're like, well, it's inevitable. He's got to. And I'm like,
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: or what? Or what? Somebody's going to primary him? Matt
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: Gaetz is going to primary him? That's what he's worried about?
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, Marco Rubio's finding his six-year Senate terms. He
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: gets to do whatever he wants.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Also, God doesn't care if you faced a primary challenger.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: You know, at the very end, you know?
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: That's a great point, John.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: I just think.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: you know, God doesn't care at the pearly gates.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't care.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Not a good reason, but God cares about ending this podcast.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Masterful pivot.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Well, Tim, cause Tim's got to go. Uh, Tim, thank
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. This was great. Uh,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: we will be back. John and Dan will be back.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: And yeah, is there, they're going to be back.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: What are you going to kill him?
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: What do you want?
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: What do you worry about?
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: John and Dan will, John and Dan will be back
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: with an episode in your feeds on Friday morning. Uh,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: We're here now, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday. That classic rotation.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: People can't miss it. Three days. It's just so much
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: good material.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: This was great.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: We filled a fucking podcast and we'll do it again.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: We'll do it again week after week. Republicans may be
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: cowards who give up, but not us.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you. That's right.
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, gentlemen.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Always a pleasure. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Tim.
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more,
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at crooked.com
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: slash friends. And if you're already doom-scrolling, don't forget to
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter, and
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more. Plus,
• 47:48
  Speaker 5: if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: a review. Give us your own takes.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Hey, give us a review.
• 47:54
  Speaker 5: Give us your takes on our takes. Pod Save America
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are Olivia Martinez
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: and David Toledo. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Writing
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: support from Hallie Kiefer. Reed Cherlin is our executive producer.
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production.
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team,
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Mia Kelman, David Tolles, Kiril Pallaviv,
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: and Molly Lobel.