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The Future of Light Therapy and Beauty Innovation with Nuon Medical Technologies · Skin Anarchy

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Ecta, and I'm really excited about our interview today because this is a topic.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to be discussing a topic that we don't really get to talk much about here on the podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in in general in the beauty space, we don't hear much about the true technology that's driving the future of beauty.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm very excited to have this conversation because of that reason.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so the guest with us today, he's truly an innovator and a visionary in this field.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, he has a very strong background in medical device innovation.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he is a CEO of Nuon Medical Technologies.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Please welcome Elaine.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Elaine.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wow, that is an amazing introduction.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh thank you so much, Ekta.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, no, definitely uh I'm excited to be on the podcast today and love to talk about the future and what cosmetics has to still see and and what we're bringing definitely in the market now.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm really, really thrilled that you agreed to do this because I, you know, I've been very curious as a consumer, obviously, but also from the science side, you know, just in how technology is now integrating with the beauty space, with the skincare space.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a very exciting time right now, I think, for many consumers, you know, when we we look out into this world and and with you and what you're doing in your work, it's truly revolutionizing, you know, the way that consumers interact with our beauty products.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to get started, Elaine, with first learning about you, because I know your background is truly, truly amazing and very impressive.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could tell us what got you into this field, I mean, where did it all begin um for the brand or the the company and your you know innovations?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where did it all start?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so actually we we're we're part of a bigger company where uh we have Cayenne Medical behind us.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And Cayenne Medical, I started up uh about 20 years ago from now.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So 20 years ago started with Cayenne Medical, and it all started with just realizing and seeing the benefits of what particularly light therapy could do for people.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So with with that 20 years of history, um yeah, making medical devices in Cayenne Medical from medical operation lights.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So those big operation lights in surgical rooms, all the way to teeth whitening lights, to LED facial masks, to uh the handheld beauty devices that you see either in a Sephora or in an Ulta, all these different types of medical devices that we really change people.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we really are a class two medical device, all the way to those hair grow laser devices, the caps, the combs, and so on.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, all these types of devices we have been producing uh in the last 20 years, and we yeah, we do multiple millions of these types of devices each year.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So just just to get a scope, uh last year we have made over 600 SKUs in the full year, and this year we're all we are already over it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so over the 600 skews right now.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the market is really growing in these types of medical devices, particularly light therapy.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, as as we are in new on medical, uh we set up new on medical for just one and a half year now.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So one and a half year with the the 20 years of medical device history though.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's very fascinating because I think you know that's that's what I see a lot of right now is that the there's a merging happening, you know, there's almost like the lines are blending out, you know.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and that's very exciting because you know, when you think about something like you know, hair health or skin health or any of this stuff, you have to bring in this really advanced way of thinking, you know, when it comes to how human physiology works.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think light therapy is really at that front and center of that, you know.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love for you to we're still we still really understand it.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: We yeah, we we're still at the point of of okay, how do we really measure light?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we measure light now with electricity, but it it's uh it's much more than that.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and how do you measure what it does on your body?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're still not familiar with.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a blank space, but it shows amazing results.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and the fun of light therapy is is that it doesn't really have a side effect.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the only side effect is carbonization, what uh definitely is is uh in the higher, higher powers where you're you're burning the skin.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now uh we we see amazing benefits.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we we explore every uh couple of months a new feature that light therapy can do.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um as a medical device manufacturer, the thing is what we also do is we support medical clinical studies with free devices.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we make free devices for clinical studies uh out there that uh are involving light therapy.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the cool thing is that uh because of that, we see now that light therapy is used for things like Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, uh urinal tract infection, uh monocular degeneration.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you have so many amazing benefits, but then taking that knowledge and bringing it all the way down to skin care and really understanding the precision of the the medical device treatments and bringing that into taking care of your face, taking care of your skin is so much fun.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and you you really see that that I like to explain it as we're the electronic toothbrush of the toothpaste industry.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, as as you try to brush your teeth now with your finger, we we are the electronic toothbrush.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're making sure that we use that that history, that that electronic device manufacturing history, and we enhance now the whole cosmetic experience from the way that people use the cosmetics all the way to the absorption of the cosmetics, all the way to enhancing the cosmetics results.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the beauty of this is that uh it gives an instant result very often, instant gratification.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, no, it's uh it's an amazing merge.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, the the fine lines from medical device to cosmetics, they're just getting closer and closer and closer.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that is where Nuon plays a very essential role.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very, very exciting.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I think one of the biggest uh I think gray areas for many consumers, especially in especially on the skincare devices, right, is this understanding of like what is truly good red light therapy device?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is a good device versus a bad one?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's a big question that comes up.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love for you to speak about this because you know, we want to understand, you know, what should we be looking for in products that are, you know, saying this is a light-based product, and you know, what whether it's wavelengths or whatever, can you educate us a little bit there, you know, about the basics of what should consumers be looking for?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So so Ecta, I'm not sure how long the podcast can be, but the the real uh the real education I can tell you that um we we we built a little website that we used prominently for internal use.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's called clinicalstudies.com.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I uploaded there about 8,000 studies about light therapy.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and on that, clinicalstudies.com, um, I put an AI.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we built a little AI, and you can search uh generic questions about how can light work for uh your pores, your your your sunscreen protection, uh any any like those type of questions.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and it will come out with what milliwatts you need to use, how many joules, and what is the wavelength.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, to to to more easily explain it, is that to really get into the details, I would suggest always to look into firstly the FDA.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the medical device clearance that the device in the company has, uh, because that already differentiates uh a lot.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of devices out there that don't carry a 510K clearance or they don't carry the FDA.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and that really shows that uh likely they don't have the right specifications that you need to do the essential treatment.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So for a manufacturer to gain a 510k clearance, they need to follow the the the FDA rules.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they need to follow certain specifications, certain rules, and that also ensures that the consumer gets an efficacious device.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, in those devices, they're they're they're better, they're good, and they're mediocre devices.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and of course, this takes a little bit more knowledge.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about the wavelength, it's not just about the pulse that is frequent, uh that is using for frequency or that is using for pulsating the the energy.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's also not just about the milliwatts a centimeter square.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there are multiple uh values that you have, but what I can say to you is that um what you see right now on the market that carries an FDA is already a pretty good standard to go from.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah, that's the that's very important, I think.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: The messaging of that, because you know, there's a lot of stuff out there, and I think many times marketing takes over, and that's why I asked you because you know, I a lot of times I'm scrolling through social media and I'm looking at people using things, I'm like, I don't know who makes this stuff, but I don't think that's valid, you know.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's for consumers, it becomes very important to have this understanding.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Also, you know, from the brand side, I would love for you to speak on this a little bit.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a brand, if there's a brand that's wanting to get into the space of offering, you know, this medical grade, you know, device in their offerings and their SKUs, where where should they start, you know, in terms of understanding like how to integrate this kind of therapy, light therapy, into what they're offering to their consumers, you know, where can brands really begin?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So so often, often we don't see that it's the case that they're hesitant or they're not aware of how these devices work.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Very often you see that uh people already are familiar with light therapy from a salon treatment.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So when you go to an average salon, beauty salon, they already have something like a light therapy panel or light therapy device, and and on that you can very easily and very quickly see the effect of how light, for example, reduces acne.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's more the other way around, and it's a very strange uh synergy here.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's that uh they know it works, and we often, and uh I can tell you this this case study of uh Procter and Gamble, for example, uh we often see that it really works and that they come back after a user study, that they go like, wow, Ellen, acne is gone within the next seven to ten days, and it doesn't come back somehow.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why why why are these lights working so well?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and then you often see that this message is then very, very difficult to confer to the marketing team because the marketing team is all about that replenishment sales, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: The the selling the cream and then find a way how they can sell and resell that cream again.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's not the case with a medical device, and that's makes it uh, and that's that they often see that uh it makes them very hesitant to go and add uh what was the case with Procter and Gamble, add an LED facial mask into the production line uh of Procter and Gamble that time for Clarisil, I recall, um, where they said, Oh, it really works.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: The study is amazing, but then we don't know how to sell it because once we put it against a cream or a foam that reduces acne, this is something that people buy again.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: The mask they buy, and then two, three years later they won't buy it again.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that is something where I think um a company, Shisheto, owns the company now, and it's called Dennis Gross.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they did an amazing job.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, we we designed the the the product line for for the company, and and what we did is um we designed only five products for them, and it weighed against the total turnover of about 200 skews of cosmetics.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So when you calculated the turnover of the five devices that don't have an expiration date that were sold as complementary to the cosmetic product line, they outsold those five devices, outsold the turnover with the 200 skews that they were carrying already.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see the impact that it can have if you already have a cosmetic line.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be afraid of adding a device that that is very functional and that really works, and that that people really start to use as a as almost as a skincare habit.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is what we try to show and really amplify with our company New Eng Medical, where we we we step away from the devices because they're quite scary for a lot of cosmetic companies, but we work it into the packaging, so we merge the cosmetic device into the cosmetic packaging, what now not becomes an or an uh yeah, either this or either that sales, but it becomes a complementary to sales, and then suddenly it becomes a very easy decision.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I can definitely tell you that in the last 20 years, when we talked to cosmetic companies, it was always in the conversation that not like oh, does it really work, but why would people still buy my cosmetics?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and now with this um somehow this concept where we said, okay, the only thing what we're gonna do is not selling devices, but is selling complementary products to the cosmetics.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we utilize our 20 years of medical device manufacturing to complement everything that the cosmetic company tries to do.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And with that view, that mission, uh, we we see that that it's a lot easier for cosmetic companies to embrace the idea of adding a medical device into their cosmetic packaging or into just uh their their program that they sell to the customers.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense, and that's actually very brilliant because I think you're you know you're absolutely right in what you said.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think for a lot of people it can be a very, I don't know, it can be a little scary, right?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: To figure out like how does a standalone device work, you know, compared to something that's integrated into the packaging.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very brilliant.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, and I want to ask you, you know, what what why do you believe that the future of cosmetics lies in this active applicator approach?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just to speak on that a little bit more.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm very much from the point of view that um if a user uh a product only works as much as the user is using it.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when we do product development uh in the past, we we have seen that the only real functional products are not the ones that are engineered, but are the ones that came out of a of a user's ID of what they perceive to be the best feeling and the best experience to use or or to do this type of treatment.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I can tell you that once you start, for example, once you start to apply an eye cream with a spatula, you will never go back to the eye cream and your fingers again.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the the cooling effect, the the way of applying it, uh using the spatula is already 10 times even nicer than just your finger.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as a user, if you start to add something like light therapy or ultrasonic treatment or anything like an ion phrase or galvanic treatment with it, you start to see that even the application of the eye cream to your skin now has that enhanced glow, has that enhanced feeling that you're not just applying it to the skin, but you're treating the skin at the same moment while you're putting the eye cream on your face, what you have been doing the last 10 years already.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now that enhanced user experience is something that you cannot go around.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Once you experience it, is something that you as a brand and as a user, you you you you you will not go back anymore to oh let me put some cream, put it on my finger and apply it on under my eye.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's almost an inevitable customer experience.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: That um, yeah, if you now go and think of uh the Nokia and text messages with the ABCs and the pressing three times to get the C, um, it it sounds like very good.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: But uh once we have experienced the touch screen, we we don't go back anymore.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's exactly what Nuon does with medical devices and the cosmetic application to it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the cool thing is we're reading out your skin diagnostics.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So while you're applying it to the skin, it tells you what is the moist of your skin, what is the oil of your skin, what is the gloss of your skin.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: All these basic diagnostics that you then can go and put into a skin diary just on your phone, and just by tapping it, no, no Bluetooth, nothing, just tap it on your phone and it sends it to your skin diary.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And just as simple as that, you have a customized personal cosmetic treatment solution for you.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, once you have experienced such a feeling, there is no way you want something else anymore.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's so cool.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I feel like that's it's amazing.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's the future.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the end of the day, you know, you can't do it.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the future, it's what we have now, it's now, yeah, it's now, it's now uh I I could say, yeah, it it's definitely uh it once you experience and feel it, you you you don't go back anymore.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: You go like, wow, this is so logical.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: It tells me my situation of my skin, it tells me what the improvement of the cosmetics are using it, and then it also enhances the way that it absorbs, that it treats the skin.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's inevitable.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just a very logical solution, and that is almost as logical as applying toothpaste with your fingers or with a toothbrush.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's not just an average toothbrush, it's an electronic toothbrush.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's how logical uh nuan is for the cosmetic industry.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, actually.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, what's interesting is that with anything, you require it requires you to consistently, you know, use it, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: With any kind of therapy, whether that's you know, light therapy, whether that's topicals, whatever it might be, you have to have consistency.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is actually very, very interesting to me when I look at it from like a physician standpoint, because now you have you know people now complying to this re this regimen that you're doing every day, and so the therapy is going to work because now you're actually utilizing it day in and day out, and now with the diagnostics, you're giving them a feedback, you're giving them the diagnostics because for a lot of people I can tell you, for example, the under-the-eye treatment is the worst uh customer feedback that device that we get.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because of course, your your your under-eyes they age three times faster than your face, uh, or at least it shows uh three times faster.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what it is is that uh when you when you see uh the feedback of people using light therapy under the eyes, uh they they very easily will say, Oh, it's not working, and I give up, you know, because they want to see something that does something overnight.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the beauty is is that once you start to add a diagnostic tool to this, then suddenly uh it's not the eye cream, it's not the device, but they really start to see that the gloss, the gloss of your skin, if you just measure that, it goes up in the first session of using the device, it goes up about 10% already.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: So just the the shininess of your your your your face itself.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not just the wrinkle reduction, of course, the wrinkle reduction is not from the day one to day two, but the just the shininess, the gloss, the the energy-looking face that you can have the when you want to go out with your friends at night, that you want to have that shiny look.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: That is already a very easy validation point that you can see by using one time the device together with any cosmetics, and you will see that the the the cos the gloss on your face already increases by that much.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a very uh it's a very uh yeah uh somehow satisfying number for people to see.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, my gloss of my skin is now this much.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I use the tool, it becomes that much.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I use it together with the cream, and it even increases with that much.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and those types of diagnostics really create that habit.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And once you get skincare habits together with the device, then is when you get the customer rotation, retention.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that is where right now, with especially with the the the Gen C and the younger uh generation, you see that customers uh uh yeah, customers they stay to a brand for maximum two, three months, and then they switch to another brand.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, once we give the diagnostics and once we give the the feedback to the customer and we add value to the cosmetics itself, you see that the retention to the brand is is almost up to 100% because people start to see feedback and they start to stick to it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then once they see the improvement, it almost gamifies the the beauty habit of starting to use it on a daily basis.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that you use that word.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It does, it makes it like a game.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: That that's very true.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, I think as a consumer, when I can see physically see the diagnostics, right, of something, and I can see that this is yeah, this is working, and here are the numbers, and that makes you it kind of like you know, it's habit formation right there because you're it's all the senses being utilized, you know, to understand.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's wonderful.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, and and I think that once you get that type of habit creation, then any cosmetic formula will work and any cosmetic device will add a lot of value because it's all about making sure you stay in that routine, you keep using it, and and and by getting the feedback, uh, I can tell you that uh yeah, people are a lot more sticky to a brand because they actually see numbers and they actually get that gratification that it does something.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want to ask you a little bit more tech on the technical side of things because I know that it's very very difficult to obviously create these devices, but then also creating them in a way now you're doing it with where it's incorporated with packaging.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the components are smaller.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: How does that work?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, from the tech side, I mean, what were some of the hurdles that your team came across when you guys were really trying to bring this technology into a smaller space?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we you couldn't ask us to do the same thing 20 years ago.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: That was not possible.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: There was there was no way that we could put these type of frequencies or this type of power or this type of battery life into something that people can carry and and use mobile.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, forget about making it waterproof and all in one.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: That was impossible.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: So for the last 20 years, we normally were always making those big salon/slash home use devices that cost a couple hundred dollars all the way up to even a couple thousand dollars.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we we have been making those for so many years.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: So now, as you see technology going smaller and smaller and smaller, uh we definitely noticed that also in our industry, we're able now to make what normally was something that was a huge medical device that you need to hold with two hands.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: We now can slim all the way down to just something as simple as a guasa.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, what what we now can do with uh just a guasa tool, where we can add microcurrent, we can add EMS, and we can add light therapy or even a laser treatment, is something that we can do in something as small as a guasa or a spatula or or just in an applicator of a tip of a tube, uh that's something with 20 years was impossible.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: 20 years ago, no way.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: But definitely now, with everything becoming so much smaller and so much more advanced, uh, the power that we can pull out of a battery is uh many multiples of that also of uh two years ago.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, two years ago, if we wanted to pull that power out of a battery, the battery pack needed to be five times, six times bigger.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now the battery technology is so advanced that we we can take that power and and on a very short time deliver it to the skin, uh, what used to be on a very large device.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very beautiful time for this technology, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, I you know it's very fascinating because now a lot of I know a lot of dermatology clinics here in the US are starting to do this where they're integrating AI into those facial mapping um software, right?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's becoming very widely used.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so that makes me wonder now more about light therapy, because when we discuss light therapy, we need to understand like the penetration, the depth of the effect, because now you know patients are being exposed to here's where your tissue is lacking, here's where, you know, like you know, for example, collagen elastin, like this is where you're lacking, this is where you need more treatment.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when you look at something like that, um, what are what are the ways that you guys are kind of integrating with the system of like, you know, where now AI is taking over and giving people more information.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, is it is it more of like a precision-driven approach?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I guess is my question with what you're creating.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um what we see is that um a lot of the values there are very static.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so 20 joules is equal to so many minutes is equal to dismatch power.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a lot of these very static approaches they come from clinical studies, and we need to stick to them.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: We we cannot be too creative with those values because once we start to be creative with those values, then the FDA doesn't approve our treatment anymore as an official treatment.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what we can do is we can be very creative in the feedback that we diagnose a skin.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So once we get, for example, uh feedback of your skin has 20% water, uh 30% oil, um, this much gloss, then we can use AI for a treatment protocol.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we can suggest uh by first scanning your face, we can suggest uh and and and we use um we use scanning technologies that we put into as uh as small as uh uh yeah a spatula or or the the the tip of a tube.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when you take an eye cream tube, we apply two roller balls on it.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Those roller balls could diagnose the skin, and they can diagnose the skin for uh things like gloss, water, moist retention, uh density, even uh collagen, uh oil, all these types of things.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we have cost-reduced those types of measuring technologies from something that you use in a clinic that costs you 25 to even sometimes$50,000 to do these type of measurements.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: We have um we we have pulled our diagnostics at the same level of those clinical devices, and we made it into a home use technology for a couple of dollars or even less.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and what it does is the those home use devices they communicate directly with your phone or an app.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the app itself then can give you an AI suggested skin protocol, what will then directly relate to the cosmetics that you're trying to use for your face.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with the devices, so like light therapy or microcurrent or galvanic or EMS or tense or so on.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot be too creative as I said, the FDA doesn't allow us, but we can suggest it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: We can suggest that we say, okay, uh for this time, because your moisture of your skin is uh lower, we suggest you to use um a red light instead of an infrared light, or we suggest you to use um this type of givenic treatment or uh iampharizis instead of uh uh EMS.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in that type of suggestion, we can still be very creative, but we can't be creative in the treatment time or in the treatment dose or in the joules or in the energy that we deliver to the skin because we need to stay up to that efficacious level that we're able to make the claim that we do something good and that we actually do that treatment for your skin.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know that there's still like I'm sure there's so much potential that you can't really bring out yet, but I I can understand there are limitations because of, you know, uh obviously FDA and stuff.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I want to ask you about this.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very important conversation, I think, that's happening right now, and especially skin science, and that's longevity.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what does longevity mean?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: How does light therapy play into longevity?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love for you to speak on this, you know, like where do you think we should be headed in our understanding of how light really plays a role with actual skin longevity?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, skin longevity, you can look into several different ways.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh now, of course, how you look, um uh what shows on your face is is the longevity treatments that you've been doing and the way that you treat your skin.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we all understand that uh there should be a healthy layer of fat on your cell, for example.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, trying to to freeze your your your skin to get that short-term benefit of reducing the puffiness um creates, of course, a long-term disadvantage on the fat on your face.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so there are several types of treatments where you have a short-term gain that you look today better, but you have a long-term disadvantage.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, now with nuon, we try to stay away from those can say destructive treatments.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there, for example, there's one out there that is uh radio frequency on your skin.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, radio frequency on the skin, very often you see that short-term benefit, but you're creating a disadvantage on the long-term uh telomere of each cell that you have.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and of course, you don't want to reduce that just for that short-term gain.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe there are some people that do, but we we're not doing that with nuances.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, with nuances, we what we do is we uh create and we use tools that have all already longevity in mind because we're not trying to create any destructive measurements to create a short-term gain.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, what we do is we re-energize the cells, uh, we stimulate the muscles, we stimulate the blood flow, we um yeah, we push absorption of peptides by using uh ultrasonic movements to push it into the skin.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: We do negative ion treatment on top of the layer to absorb the cosmetics and absorb the the collagen peptides, all these types of things we we do in a in a way method that is all focused on longevity rather than on short-term benefits to um to yeah, that actually create long-term disadvantages.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's for yeah, for nuanced, there isn't uh there isn't like a five pages side effect uh manual to go with our products.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's a huge plus.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think I think that's that's important, it's an important conversation, I think, because there's a lot of stuff out there, you know.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: People are claiming that they have lasers, at home lasers and stuff, and it gets confusing.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's important to understand, you know, skin longevity right now.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm when I look at this conversation, I see this a lot, you know, people are really talking about what it means.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when they talk about light therapy, they're trying to bring very, very, I think, aggressive approaches into the home where I don't think that's what it is at all.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you think about like cellular balance and cellular physiology, it's exactly what you said.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're not you don't want to induce any kind of damage.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the goal.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you shouldn't, we shouldn't even be going down that road, you know what I mean?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like it shouldn't even be that conversation.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's not needed, it's it's a method that could be used, and you have a very quick short-term gain.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it doesn't, it's not necessary because once you create that energy from the inside out, uh, you can still stimulate the collagen.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it takes a little bit more effort and you put a little bit more time in it.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: But once you put that time in it and that effort, you you see the skin clear up so much better, and you do that all without the long-term damage that you create to the skin.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you you can easily create uh uh a superficial inflammation that then creates uh new blood, new new cell stimulation that on the short term it looks very attractive, but then on the long-term run, you're just destructive.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I don't think there is a need for that.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and and cosmetic users that use an eye cream or a facial cream, they're already in there for the long run.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there is no need to start to add uh these types of destructive treatments, and and we're not doing that with new on as well.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: We we do produce RF devices, we we have the knowledge of that, but I will never put an RF device in a spatula or in uh in a cap of uh uh a cream or something like that.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: We we we definitely we we're not looking to do that for the new on business.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it makes sense.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: It makes sense.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I at the end of the day, I think it's all about truly like, you know, even if it does take a longer time, it's the efficacy that you're looking for, it's the actual therapeutic advantage over time, you know.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really what should define longevity, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that at the end of the day, and and you know, for many, many years, I think as consumers, we were looking for a quick fix.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's very important to understand when you're dealing with device level, you know, therapy, you're not going to get something that's you know at home that's going to act like something you know immediate.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like you need to put a little bit of time into it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's just like patience.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we we as a device manufacturer, I think we also have some responsibility to educate the buyer.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the buyer in this case is the cosmetic company.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we we have endless of cosmetic companies coming to us and say, Ellen, can you add uh radio frequency into this?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and and can you add some uh yeah super high power laser into this?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, of course we can, uh, but it's not something that we will be ever be doing with new ones just because it doesn't work from the point of view that we want to engage and improve the user experience, and this includes also long-term longevity benefits to the skin.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: It does not just a short-term quick fix and win.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So uh no, we're we're not supporting this in in our product development.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I can tell you that, yeah, of course, there is possibilities to do so, and you will start seeing them.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I think once we educate our customers, who are the cosmetic manufacturers, they will also educate their buyers.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and and of course, I think a lot of the cosmetic users uh they're in there for the long run.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can then combine it with skin diagnostics, and you see that people slowly but gratifyingly are improving their skin uh by using the cream and using the device, then they don't need that instant uh facial lift feeling or that instant wrinkle reduction feeling.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because, as you know, that that also is not real and it doesn't come out of your body.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it comes from either a destructive method or uh by adding something from the outside that isn't natural to your body.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's very true.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think it's wonderful.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: The approach is wonderful.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm very interested in like the future of like bioelectric medicine, you know, and especially as it pertains to skin.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a very fascinating field.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you know, the approach that you've discussed here, I think it's the most logical in the sense of like if you want long-term benefits, you have to look at things like ion gradients, you have to look at cell polarity, you have to look at how all of these things are impacted by the yes, yeah.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the kind of effects you will get over time if you're consistent.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you will see those, I think, over time.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's a big knowledge gap, unfortunately, for consumers right now.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a big knowledge gap there.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when it comes to something like what Nuon is bringing to the table, and especially for all of you know, any brand founders out there, when you guys are looking at integrating light therapy into your offerings, I think it's important to have this discussion with your consumers.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like put this into your marketing and explain to people that this is how this works, this is the expectation you should have, you know.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very passionate about that because I think a lot of times that's what leads people down the wrong road, you know, of picking devices that are not good for them that won't give them the results they want, you know.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's very interesting.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm very curious, what do you think the next the next five years?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think is uh you know, in the future, in the next five years with light therapy?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I can tell you that the we we started off with about uh less than 20 modalities of technical modalities that we can add to cosmetic packaging.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, within a one and a half year time, we already grown that over to more than 30 different modalities.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have been lately asked by uh, I guess one of the world's biggest uh perfume manufacturers, can you make something for perfume?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and there we we we we put it to the engineering team and we find out that we can uh also ionize the perfume and then in that way create a better absorption of the perfume onto your skin so you have a longer smell, longer lasting smell.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so this is just a movement of the last three months that from an ID to three months later, we have we have a concept already how we can do and amplify and improve just the whole perfume market.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So um this the same idea we we we see coming up now for sunscreen market, we see it for hair care market.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: So five years ahead of time is a long ride when you see every three months a new technology coming.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I can tell you that personalized and customized treatments are definitely the future, yeah.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for us, our um, it's not so much the five-year, but the one-year future is uh all about microbiome.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the microbiome of your skin is essential the the the way that your skin works, and and that microbiome, uh either if it is your gut or your skin, uh once you are able to analyze the microbiome, you're able to treat the microbiome of your skin in a natural method, what makes it possible to uh yeah work and and and help the microbiome of your skin, what works out to uh yeah, a better natural-looking skin.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I I do think that the microbiome uh treatments uh either topical or by uh oral or even by uh uh device measurement now, uh measuring the microbiome of your skin, I think will be uh the next couple of years will be very big.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very fascinating.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I'm excited about the the microbiome.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's very uh interesting how it's emerged so quickly, you know, in the last decade.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when the studies were very novel, you know, uh uh over a decade ago.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: I remember reading it as a medical student and thinking, oh, one day, you know, we'll have something where we're integrating this, but now it's happening.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's so having a home use microbiome testing machine, I think that will be amazing to show oh, you're lacking this, you should be having that.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then let's try to work that through either your diet or anything else that you apply topical to the skin.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that will be a huge one.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, and it really will be the personalized skincare solutions, though.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: So either way, just in short, for next five years, uh all the skincare you apply to the skin will be personalized.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's very exciting.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited for the future, you know.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is oh, I'm excited about the now because of what you guys are doing, all the wonderful things, but also, you know, what's coming up.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's very, very exciting to see this merger, you know, of of medicine and and everyday use.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's just such a great time to be alive.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, but thank you so much.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so exciting.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but thank you so much, Elaine.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: This has been amazing to talk to you and to learn from you.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm a huge fan of what you're doing.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is definitely what you guys are creating.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is it's obviously the now, but it is the future.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I really urge any brands listening, you know, get in touch with New On Medical.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: You guys need to get involved, and and I I can't wait to see, you know, what else you create.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's very exciting.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
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