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Munchausen by Proxy · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 1: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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Speaker 1: the speaker and do not necessarily represent the Knife or
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Speaker 1: exactly right media.
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Speaker 2: Nothing was out of the ordinary except mom was doing
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Speaker 2: out the mouth and chest compressions on a little boy,
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Speaker 2: her son, who had a pose aim was breathing.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eaton. Hannah is currently
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Speaker 1: on leave, but we were able to record this interview
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Speaker 1: before she left, so you'll still hear her voice here
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Speaker 1: and there throughout the interview. Today we're speaking with Tony Collins.
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Speaker 1: Tony was twenty six years old working as a paramedic
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Speaker 1: when a pediatric response call came in over the radio.
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Speaker 1: The two year old boy was breathing. What began as
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Speaker 1: a series of unexplained medical emergencies slowly grew into a
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Speaker 1: disturbing child abuse investigation, raising unsettling questions about how far
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Speaker 1: one mother would go to control a narrative and what
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Speaker 1: else she might be hiding. Let's get into the interview. Hi, Tony,
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Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to speak
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Speaker 1: with us today. So great to meet you.
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Speaker 2: Thank to meet you.
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Speaker 1: Guys, too, So, Tony, I reached out to you because
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Speaker 1: I found your name in an article about one case
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Speaker 1: in particular that you're going to speak with us about.
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Speaker 1: But could you first just introduce yourself to our audience.
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Speaker 2: Sure, my name's Tony Collins. I'm a retired paramedic in Iowa.
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Speaker 2: I retired after a forty year career. It spanned from
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Speaker 2: seventy eight to eighteen. I started when I was a
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Speaker 2: senior in high school, working nights on an ambulance at
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Speaker 2: the hospital, and I retired in twenty eighteen from the
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Speaker 2: fire department with the rank of Assistant chief and fire Marshall.
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Speaker 1: You've seen it all, yeah.
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Speaker 2: And just when you think you've seen it all, you
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Speaker 2: see something new.
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Speaker 1: Iowa is over seventy percent crop land. It's the largest
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Speaker 1: corn producing state in the US. Des Moines is the
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Speaker 1: state's capital, and just outside of Des Moines is a
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Speaker 1: quiet suburb called Urbandale. For Tony, That's where this story begins,
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Speaker 1: all the way back in nineteen eighty seven. At the time,
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Speaker 1: Urbandale was even quieter than it is now. Little neighborhoods
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Speaker 1: separated by open fields. There were parks home to Little
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Speaker 1: League games, churches, kids riding their bikes. Tony was twenty
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Speaker 1: six years old working as an EMT when a call
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Speaker 1: came in over the radio.
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Speaker 2: It was just a normal day at work. I've been
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Speaker 2: a paramedic for four years at that time. That particular
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Speaker 2: call at the address was only a matter of minutes away.
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Speaker 2: I was at the base and when I arrived, it's
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Speaker 2: like a town home type.
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Speaker 1: Before you get into the scene. I'm actually curious what
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Speaker 1: you were told on the call. On the dispatcher nine
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Speaker 1: one one call, what was said to you.
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Speaker 2: I think when the call came out, I think we're
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Speaker 2: dispatched as a difficulty breathing or a seizure type call.
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Speaker 2: Either way, it was a pediatric response. I do know
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Speaker 2: that child seizing or child not breathing. I respond solo
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Speaker 2: in a little SUV, a paramedic responder, and the local
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Speaker 2: fire department is the ones who sent the ambulance, so
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Speaker 2: I'm staffed. They were volunteer, so I naturally had a
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Speaker 2: quicker response time out the door. Plus I was only
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Speaker 2: minutes away, and so I had a pretty quick response
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Speaker 2: time and arriving.
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Speaker 1: A woman named Tanya Reid had called nine one one
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Speaker 1: to report that her two year old son was not
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Speaker 1: breathing that he possibly had a seizure. Tony, being first
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Speaker 1: on the scene, rushed to the door of the town home.
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Speaker 1: A screen door was closed, but the front door was open.
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Speaker 1: Tony yelled through the door paramedic medic, but there was
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Speaker 1: no response. He quickly just let himself in and then I.
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Speaker 2: Heard a voice coming from an upstairs bedroom and that's
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Speaker 2: where I went and found the mom, this woman on
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Speaker 2: the opposite side of the bed in the master bedroom,
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Speaker 2: and she was doing mountain mouth and chest compressions on
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Speaker 2: a young boy, which was her son, and I tried
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Speaker 2: to get her to move so I could assess the
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Speaker 2: child first, and she wouldn't move. She just kept saying,
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Speaker 2: come on, baby, breathe, breathe, come on, baby, and I
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Speaker 2: physically with my arm, had to get her out of
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Speaker 2: my way so I could look at him. And I
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Speaker 2: mean I was polite initially, and then I had to
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Speaker 2: get a little more firm in my commands to move
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Speaker 2: so I can look at him. And he was breathing
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Speaker 2: like thirty two times a minute.
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Speaker 1: Wait, he was breathing.
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Speaker 2: He was breathing. He was groggy, almost like you are
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Speaker 2: after a seizure or low blood sugar. He was just
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Speaker 2: kind of his eyes were to kind of looking straight ahead,
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Speaker 2: and he had a pulse and he had respiration. And
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Speaker 2: so immediately, as we're not doing a CPR, mounth to
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Speaker 2: mouth anymore.
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Speaker 1: You know, did it strike you as odd that she
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Speaker 1: wasn't immediately sort of I don't know, thrusting her child
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Speaker 1: into your arms, like if I'm just picturing if I
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Speaker 1: was concerned about my child's breathing enough to call nine
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Speaker 1: when one and then a paramedic arrives, it's like, okay,
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Speaker 1: now you take over.
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Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, that is kind of unusual. I mean,
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Speaker 2: all circumstances are same, and you evaluate them based on
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Speaker 2: their own merit. But many times I've had parents made
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Speaker 2: us at the curb when you roll up bringing a
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Speaker 2: limp child out and you're at the curb and they
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Speaker 2: just hand that baby to you. So that's not an
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Speaker 2: uncommon thing to happen, you know.
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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, especially you having responded to different
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Speaker 1: calls of especially a child having medical need, and how
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Speaker 1: scary that is for every one. You know, her response
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Speaker 1: seems to be unusual for a parent, but also could
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Speaker 1: it have been she was so panicked that her kid
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Speaker 1: wasn't breathing, that she wasn't like in her right mind.
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Speaker 1: Like have you seen that type of thing before?
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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, especially with a mother or any parent, they're bloways,
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Speaker 2: visually distraught when something's wrong with their child. They're in panic.
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Speaker 2: Oh that's why they typically will meet you at the
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Speaker 2: door or sometimes the curb carrying their child. They want
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Speaker 2: to get it to the ambulance and you get to
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Speaker 2: the hospital as soon as possible. That's kind of what
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Speaker 2: the norm is. Occasionally you get the anomaly of a
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Speaker 2: citizen that learned SAPR at their employer or whatever, took
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Speaker 2: a CPR class, or were a lifeguard at a pool
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Speaker 2: at some point, so they'll act. Those are the type
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Speaker 2: of people that will act in an emergency, and that
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Speaker 2: was the case with her. She was doing chest compressions
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Speaker 2: and mount to mouse. She wasn't just doing mount to mouse,
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Speaker 2: she was pressing on his chest as well.
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Speaker 1: So that combination of things does seem unusual, Like she
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Speaker 1: was a panicked parent, but she clearly knew how to
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Speaker 1: do CPR right.
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Speaker 2: But again, medically trained people. I could speak for myself
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Speaker 2: if I had one of my kids when they were
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Speaker 2: little something happened, I'd probably be doing CPR on them
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Speaker 2: too immediately. Well, yeah, so's it's anything speculation or presumption
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Speaker 2: in that regard obviously later, but then the appearance of
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Speaker 2: the room started pinging things. Here we have a two
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Speaker 2: and a half year old in the master bed or
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Speaker 2: not a kid's room, and the bed was just like
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Speaker 2: I remember this vividly, like if you check into a motel,
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Speaker 2: you could bounce a quarter off the mattress, you know,
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Speaker 2: the bedspread in a bed that's made and tight and firm.
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Speaker 2: That's what the bed looked like, except right where he was,
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Speaker 2: where he was and where she was doing the mouth
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Speaker 2: to mouth on him. He was on top of the covers,
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Speaker 2: except the covers pulled back from the pillow, and the
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Speaker 2: pillow was the only thing not covered. And that struck
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Speaker 2: me as odd.
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Speaker 1: Can I ask was it weird because she was supposedly
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Speaker 1: taking a nap when she found him or something?
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Speaker 2: Well, if I recall, right, who tried saying something along
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Speaker 2: those lines and she found him not breathing, So it
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Speaker 2: just metal notes you make. You know, if she says
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Speaker 2: he's sleeping, I'm going to look because it look like
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Speaker 2: a kid's sleeping. And why is he sleeping in mom
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Speaker 2: and Dad's room and not his own room because he
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Speaker 2: had his own room.
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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty seven, Tanya Reid was a stay at
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Speaker 1: home mom to her two children, Matthew and his older sister, Kimberly,
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Speaker 1: but she'd previously worked as a nurse. She certainly knew
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Speaker 1: how to give CPR. Tony recalled Tanya saying that her son, Matthew,
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Speaker 1: had been asleep taking a nap in her room when
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Speaker 1: she found him there, not breathing, a terrifying scenario for
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Speaker 1: any parent. Something about the scene, though, felt off, but
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Speaker 1: Tony's primary focus was on Matthew. The ambulance had arrived,
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Speaker 1: and Tony and the other first responders felt it was
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Speaker 1: best that Matthew be taken to a hospital for further evaluation,
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Speaker 1: But first they needed Tanya's consent.
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Speaker 2: He's a minor, and we can't transport anybody without the
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Speaker 2: consent of the parents. So we always get the consent.
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Speaker 2: Because I asked her, what hospital do you want us
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Speaker 2: to take him to? There's kind of a trick way
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Speaker 2: of asking questions. Sometimes you don't ask do you want
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Speaker 2: him to go to the hospital to get checked out?
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Speaker 2: It's what hospital do you want us to take him to?
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Speaker 2: And she said Iowa Methodist. There's my consent. She wanted
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Speaker 2: us to take him to Iowa Methodists. Per mom's direction,
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Speaker 2: we transported him to the hospital.
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Speaker 1: I mean, this sounds like, besides the unusual response of
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Speaker 1: the mom when you get there, which you know, who
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Speaker 1: knows why she's that way, and the sort of odd
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Speaker 1: look of the bedroom, it seems like this call ends
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Speaker 1: up going well and feels like more positive than maybe
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Speaker 1: some outcomes of calls you've had of kids struggling to breathe,
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Speaker 1: And so at the end when you sort of see
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Speaker 1: him lead for the hospital, how are you feeling about it?
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Speaker 1: Did it feel like, okay, great, we did a good job,
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Speaker 1: He's going to be okay, or were you worried about him?
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Speaker 1: Like what was your sort of mental state at that time?
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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not in charge of his care. I've
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Speaker 2: transferred that authority to the emergency room staff, the nurses,
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Speaker 2: and the doctors. And then all of a sudden, it's
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Speaker 2: like now it's just something wasn't right in the back
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Speaker 2: of my head, and that bedroom scenario is what I
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Speaker 2: kept going back to because I'm trying to figure out.
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Speaker 2: He didn't have any more seizure. He didn't have seizures
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Speaker 2: for me. He didn't quit breathing for me. He didn't
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Speaker 2: do anything that would trigger a kid to not breathing
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Speaker 2: if he's holding his breath. When you hold your breast
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Speaker 2: so long, you start breathing again, you know, automatically, this
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Speaker 2: is the body's response. So you know, I'm reviewing the scene.
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Speaker 2: Nothing was out of the ordinary except mom was doing
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Speaker 2: mouthed them out and chest compressions on it little boy,
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Speaker 2: her son who had of polls and was breathing. That
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Speaker 2: stood out. It just it stood out. It didn't make sense.
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Speaker 2: So I shared that with the emergency room staff. I
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Speaker 2: said she was doing CPR when I got there, but
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Speaker 2: when I got her out of the way, I had
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Speaker 2: to move her because she wouldn't stop at first. She
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Speaker 2: just kept pressing on his chest and giving him a breath,
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Speaker 2: and I physically had to get her to move to
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Speaker 2: the side, just with my forearms gently moved her. And
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Speaker 2: you know, any kids breathing. So I relayed all that
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Speaker 2: to the staff so they were aware we did not
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Speaker 2: have a child that was not breathing under our care.
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Speaker 2: He was breathing the whole time, So I'm sharing with
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Speaker 2: him how the room was perfect when I'm relaying when
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Speaker 2: they asked those questions about the scene. Mom and Dad's
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Speaker 2: the master bedroom, and the bed was made. It was
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Speaker 2: perfectly neat except for where he was laying. And then
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Speaker 2: I started thinking him backwards, and I'm like, that pillow
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Speaker 2: was above his head, that cover was pulled off the pillow,
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Speaker 2: and the pillow had been moved, and the only thing
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Speaker 2: distirred on the intake because the kid was on top
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Speaker 2: of the covers. You know. Also, it just it didn't
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Speaker 2: make sense, but I didn't dwell on it.
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Speaker 1: Tony shared what he saw with the hospital staff. But
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Speaker 1: now Matthew's care was out of his hands and in
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Speaker 1: the hands of emergency room doctors at Iowa Methodist Medical Center,
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Speaker 1: and these doctors had never seen Matthew before. The reads
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Speaker 1: had only recently moved to Urbandale. Tanya informed the doctors
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Speaker 1: that Matthew had a history of seizures, and it's true
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Speaker 1: that seizures can sometimes disrupt the part of the brain
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Speaker 1: that controls breathing, but even after a thorough evaluation, doctors
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Speaker 1: couldn't determine what might be causing the seizures or breathing
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Speaker 1: problems for Matthew. So once he was stabilized, he returned home.
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Speaker 1: But three months later, another nine to one to one
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Speaker 1: call came in from Tanya read do you remember when
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Speaker 1: you got that next call? And thinking like, wait, I
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Speaker 1: know this place, Like, can you take us to that
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Speaker 1: memory if you have it?
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Speaker 2: I was personally again, which happens a lot. So I
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Speaker 2: had a friend that lived in that same complex. I
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Speaker 2: knew where the ice arena was, and so I went,
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Speaker 2: I've been here before, you know. It was the same
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Speaker 2: type of call. It was the same place, and sure
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Speaker 2: enough rolled up, Yep, this is where I was before,
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Speaker 2: you know, for the same kid. So all right, I'm
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Speaker 2: thinking this kid's got some underlying medical problem. Coming back
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Speaker 2: a second time, Yeah, that's the feeling you get when
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Speaker 2: you hear familiar address.
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Speaker 1: The second call that came in from Tanya Reid was
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Speaker 1: similar to the first, some version of Matthew not breathing,
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Speaker 1: perhaps the result of a seizure, and this would not
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Speaker 1: be Tanya's last call. The calls kept coming, and each
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Speaker 1: time Matthew was stabilized, transported to Iowa Methodist, evaluated, and
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Speaker 1: returned home. But on this second call, while Tony was
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Speaker 1: working on Matthew. He remembers vividly that Tanya would not
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Speaker 1: stop talking. She was oddly nonchalant, but despite her chattiness,
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Speaker 1: she wasn't offering any useful information that might help them
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Speaker 1: determine what was going on with Matthew.
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Speaker 2: I mean, you got a mom backing in your ear
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Speaker 2: all the time, and you're trying to listen to her,
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Speaker 2: but you're going to see assessing the child and investigating
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Speaker 2: why she called you. You don't see what it is
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Speaker 2: and what you can do for it. That's for your focus.
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Speaker 2: So it's like background noise, you know sometimes, but you
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Speaker 2: listen for key things and then when you're comfortable after
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Speaker 2: assessing and all right, we're not in a critical situation.
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Speaker 2: I'm not in a baiting m I'm not diving in
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Speaker 2: with drugs or invasive care, you know, picking him up
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Speaker 2: to rush to the ambulance, I'm like, all right, we're good.
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Speaker 2: I'm waiting on the ambulance. Then I'll turn my focus
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Speaker 2: to all right, tell me again, what was he doing?
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Speaker 2: What'd you witness? She had an answer for everything and anything.
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Speaker 2: After a while, Like I said, it becomes background noise
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Speaker 2: when you're repeating the same things that don't make sense,
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Speaker 2: or if they're irrelevant or nonpertinent, you filter it out.
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Speaker 2: I'm looking for give me some meat on the bone,
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Speaker 2: you know.
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Speaker 1: I guess I'm just trying to get an idea, because
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Speaker 1: the first time you said the scene of he seemed
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Speaker 1: to not be breathing, that was her explanation, he's not breathing,
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Speaker 1: I'm giving him CPR. You pull her off, You realize
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Speaker 1: that's not the case. Is it the same every time
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Speaker 1: where she says he wasn't breathing or he passed out,
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Speaker 1: or what was the story?
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Speaker 2: It's time it was different. Sometimes she'd say he had
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Speaker 2: a seizure. You know, I wasn't really to breathing and
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Speaker 2: it was a seizure, and she never mentioned not breathing. Well,
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Speaker 2: I mean, so it was kind of all over the
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Speaker 2: board in what she would say that the general reason
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Speaker 2: we were there was either seizures, difficulty breathing, or not breathing.
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Speaker 1: Were these calls all during the day or were they
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Speaker 1: at different times of day or what time of day
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Speaker 1: do you recall them coming in.
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Speaker 2: All in the evening around five o'clock, except I think
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Speaker 2: there was an anomaly one around eight o'clock one day. Again,
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Speaker 2: I'd have to go back and look at the totalists
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Speaker 2: of calls, but most of them were all on Tuesdays
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Speaker 2: and Fridays around five o'clock, with the exception of one
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Speaker 2: or two.
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Speaker 1: And how is Matthew's father acting or what was his demeanor?
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Speaker 2: He was never present? And I raised that question at
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Speaker 2: one point to the ambulance group from the fire. How
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Speaker 2: come the dad's never hear?
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Speaker 1: Was she always the only adult present when these calls
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Speaker 1: would come in?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was the only adult, okay. And sometimes there
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Speaker 2: were other kids there and other times I don't wasn't
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Speaker 2: any on that first one, And I can't tell you
16:40
Speaker 2: who I was there for all of them, but she
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Speaker 2: was the only adult each time. There was always it
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Speaker 2: seemed like there were some other activities going on in
16:50
Speaker 2: the house at the time when his events happened, separate
16:54
Speaker 2: from what the activity was. He wasn't going to participate.
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Speaker 1: Now, you mean, what like I among the children.
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Speaker 2: His kids are watching a movie, kids were playing tag.
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Speaker 2: He wasn't playing tag, you know what I mean.
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Speaker 1: I'm curious, what did Tanya tell you about herself that
17:15
Speaker 1: you remember in her experience as a nurse or did
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Speaker 1: she offer that information to you or was that something
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Speaker 1: you learned later?
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Speaker 2: Only at some point I remember her saying, I'm a nurse.
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Speaker 2: Either I am a nurse or was a nurse. I
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Speaker 2: didn't get into her resume. Okay, mom's a nurse. And
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Speaker 2: she was more calm that second time, and she remained
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Speaker 2: calm for a while till the very last call. Then
17:39
Speaker 2: it was totally different.
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Speaker 1: There would be many more calls before that last call
17:45
Speaker 1: that Tony's referring to. Sometimes these calls would be only
17:48
Speaker 1: a week apart, and when paramedics would arrive on these calls,
17:52
Speaker 1: Tanya seemed to frequently be displaying her ability to perform
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Speaker 1: CPR and mouth to mouth resuscitation. Sometimes you'd tell paramedics
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Speaker 1: she'd been able to get Matthew breathing again while they
18:03
Speaker 1: were on the way over, but her demeanor was eerily calm.
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Speaker 1: During yet another emergency trip to Iowa Methodist Medical Center,
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Speaker 1: a nurse noticed scratch marks on Matthew's cheeks, as if
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Speaker 1: he'd been trying to remove something covering his mouth. On
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Speaker 1: the same visit, Tanya stopped one of the nurses working
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Speaker 1: on Matthew to point out a small scratch on her finger.
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Speaker 1: It seemed odd. How can a mother whose son so
18:26
Speaker 1: often was found not breathing bring herself to care about
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Speaker 1: a small scratch on her own finger. Suspicion was mounting
18:33
Speaker 1: at the hospital and elsewhere. The paramedics in the fire department.
18:37
Speaker 1: They worked in the same building, and the more calls
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Speaker 1: that came in from Tanya read, the more her name
18:42
Speaker 1: came up among Tony and his fellow first responders.
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Speaker 2: You know, you make little cynical remarks sometimes you just
18:49
Speaker 2: do you know, when you go the same place and
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Speaker 2: it's like much is you cry and wolf? This lady
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Speaker 2: crying wolf for something? Because the kid's fine every time
18:56
Speaker 2: we get him. You know, why do we keep coming
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Speaker 2: Was that.
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Speaker 1: Kind of feeling after several calls, was that the kid
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Speaker 1: is fine and she's overreacting.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're always looking for answers while you're doing
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Speaker 2: what you're doing. My question was why do we keep
19:14
Speaker 2: coming back? Why isn't Dad at every home? Why is
19:18
Speaker 2: it always the same time of day? You know, little
19:21
Speaker 2: things like that. So somebody had repeated, you know, yeah,
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Speaker 2: why don't we keep going to this house? And you
19:27
Speaker 2: know the police always respond to calls you know, a
19:29
Speaker 2: police officer patrol car responds. Back then, they always responded
19:33
Speaker 2: on every ambulance call too, just to have the cruise
19:36
Speaker 2: back just in case they were needed. Most of the
19:38
Speaker 2: time they're like, you need me here, now you can go.
19:41
Speaker 2: We got this, and they take off. You know, you
19:43
Speaker 2: never knew what their involvement level is going to be.
19:45
Speaker 2: You know, could have been a drunk a fight, a shooting, ansault,
19:49
Speaker 2: or you know, a kid.
19:50
Speaker 1: I guess where is sort of spreading around the firehouse
19:53
Speaker 1: that there's something unusual about these calls, or that she's
19:57
Speaker 1: crying wolf, or maybe it's just kind of like frustrating
20:00
Speaker 1: because you're called to a scene where a kid is fine,
20:04
Speaker 1: not once but twice.
20:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I think there were fire or five,
20:09
Speaker 2: six seven calls totally. I can't remember how many. It
20:13
Speaker 2: spanned over several months. I mean, they weren't not to
20:17
Speaker 2: back calls. They were always spanned over several months. But
20:20
Speaker 2: we kept coming back. One thing I remember, they could
20:23
Speaker 2: never find anything wrong with it. You know, she keeps calling.
20:28
Speaker 1: Some people never call line on one that many times in.
20:30
Speaker 2: Their life, right, and the fire guys are no different
20:34
Speaker 2: than me. At the time. You know, oh my got
20:36
Speaker 2: that address again, you know, and because they're leaving what
20:39
Speaker 2: they're doing, have to respond to the fire station and
20:42
Speaker 2: gear up and then get out the door and respond.
20:45
Speaker 2: You know, they're getting familiar with that address. Even the dispatchers.
20:49
Speaker 2: You know, you got same dispatcher, works that same ship.
20:51
Speaker 2: They guess what you know this address again. So now
20:56
Speaker 2: people are like, what's going on. I'm not the only
20:59
Speaker 2: one curiosity questions. You know, other people in their town
21:04
Speaker 2: are having lost questions.
21:06
Speaker 1: The chatter at the fire station was not happening in isolation.
21:10
Speaker 1: Tanya Reid had called nine to one one so many times,
21:13
Speaker 1: sending her toddler to the hospital so his seizures and
21:15
Speaker 1: breathing could be evaluated, only for doctors to continually find
21:19
Speaker 1: no indication of seizures or what could be causing any
21:23
Speaker 1: breathing issues. And the first responders and hospital staff they
21:27
Speaker 1: never saw Matthew have a seizure. And soon someone else
21:31
Speaker 1: would walk into Tony's office who had questions of their own.
21:35
Speaker 2: So anyway, I got a visit from a detective that
21:39
Speaker 2: came to my base one day and was asking me questions.
21:43
Speaker 2: And now I said, I'm explaining all the things that
21:46
Speaker 2: aren't passing the smell test. To me, Now, I'm not stupid.
21:50
Speaker 2: I don't when a cop walks in. He's not just
21:52
Speaker 2: randomly there to check on my day and say hey,
21:55
Speaker 2: how you doing, especially on you may not know. Well,
21:58
Speaker 2: he's there for a reason, like oh, they're looking into this,
22:01
Speaker 2: you know. And so I explained to him all my
22:05
Speaker 2: details and he was listening intently. And we keep a
22:09
Speaker 2: log book. We were a volunteer paramedic unit. I was
22:12
Speaker 2: the only paid person director operations, so I was there
22:16
Speaker 2: most days, and so I showed him our lot. You
22:19
Speaker 2: wanted to know about other calls to that address? Okay,
22:24
Speaker 2: well I'm compelled to share that with you because I
22:27
Speaker 2: have questions myself. So one of our other paramedics had
22:32
Speaker 2: responded to called that I wasn't on. She went there,
22:37
Speaker 2: and our log book was just for ship to ship
22:40
Speaker 2: communications documenting. He went up to Durbandale twice last night
22:44
Speaker 2: and five once in out to Dallas County yesterday, just
22:48
Speaker 2: so you knew what Paul's that happened the previous shift.
22:52
Speaker 2: So anyway, when this other paramedic, she responded and she
22:57
Speaker 2: wrote in their trip to this Canterbury and she goes.
23:00
Speaker 2: Guess who Tony she goes, same kid she goes, apparently
23:06
Speaker 2: has some kind of breath holding disorder that makes him
23:10
Speaker 2: quit breathing or go into seizures. And when I read that,
23:13
Speaker 2: having been there multiple times myself, I wrote above it
23:18
Speaker 2: in the book, I wrote bullshit with exclamation marks and underling,
23:22
Speaker 2: because I'm like, breath holding disorder. That's new to me,
23:27
Speaker 2: and forty years later, it's still new to me, a
23:30
Speaker 2: breath holding disorder other than a temper tantrum.
23:35
Speaker 1: What is the detective's reaction to this log book where
23:40
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that the paramedics are also pretty sure
23:44
Speaker 1: something is up right.
23:46
Speaker 2: He honed in on that when I showed him that
23:48
Speaker 2: when I was going through each of the calls, because
23:50
Speaker 2: he wanted to know exactly what time each call was
23:53
Speaker 2: and who was on it. Me again again, I hope
23:57
Speaker 2: Janis went on this one.
23:58
Speaker 1: Did he share with you anything more specific about his
24:01
Speaker 1: interest in this mother and the son who was supposedly
24:07
Speaker 1: having these health issues?
24:09
Speaker 2: Good detective doesn't share anything when he's digging. If he
24:13
Speaker 2: finds a gold nugget, he's not telling you he found
24:15
Speaker 2: a gold nugget.
24:16
Speaker 1: What was his response to seeing the words bullshit and
24:20
Speaker 1: the log.
24:22
Speaker 2: Why'd you write that? He goes, what was bullshit about it?
24:25
Speaker 2: And then he dunk deeper after that, and we're in
24:28
Speaker 2: any deeper conversation on what it wasn't passing the smell test,
24:33
Speaker 2: and we're back to my very first call. Because he
24:37
Speaker 2: was curious tell me about that first call, you know,
24:40
Speaker 2: and he's not telling me why he's asking that. He's
24:44
Speaker 2: asking it because he wants to know. He already knows
24:46
Speaker 2: something and he wants to know more. So after that,
24:51
Speaker 2: going on, after our conversation, he all of a sudden
24:55
Speaker 2: showed up on all subsequent calls after that, and this
24:57
Speaker 2: was after the third or fourth call. They gave specific
25:01
Speaker 2: instructions to dispatch that if we ever get a call
25:04
Speaker 2: to this address, that address was flagged in the system,
25:07
Speaker 2: he is automatically to be paged out for it. On call.
25:17
Speaker 1: A detective had visited Tony at work with questions about
25:21
Speaker 1: Tanya read and why Tony had written bullshit in their
25:24
Speaker 1: log book. By this time, Tanya had called nine one
25:27
Speaker 1: one three or four times since moving to Urbandale less
25:30
Speaker 1: than a year earlier, so if she called again, a
25:33
Speaker 1: detective would now arrive on the scene along with paramedics,
25:37
Speaker 1: and sure enough, Tanya made another nine one one call.
25:41
Speaker 2: After that, All of a sudden, here we got an
25:43
Speaker 2: unmarked detective car showing up at our calls to that address.
25:48
Speaker 2: All he did was observed. He didn't take over, He
25:50
Speaker 2: didn't ask well, he asked us questions, is this normal,
25:53
Speaker 2: is that or whatever? He was observing and making notes
25:58
Speaker 2: and was just there because he was watching a mom.
26:03
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you know anything about Tanya's reaction to
26:06
Speaker 1: his presence.
26:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, her Spidey senses were picking up. Not the first
26:11
Speaker 2: one I remember the first time he was there. She
26:14
Speaker 2: was curious. She noticed him, but there wasn't any change
26:17
Speaker 2: or why the hell's a cop here? There wasn't anything
26:20
Speaker 2: like that. But she wasn't a stupid woman. She was
26:25
Speaker 2: a nurse, said you know at some point, so she's
26:27
Speaker 2: not dumb, but she noticed something was off about the response.
26:32
Speaker 2: All the firefighters PM. We weren't asking as many questions
26:35
Speaker 2: as we used to. We were there to pick up
26:38
Speaker 2: the kid and get him out of there and get
26:40
Speaker 2: him to the hospital. And we were always going to
26:42
Speaker 2: Iowa Methodist. And I was aware because I also flew
26:47
Speaker 2: on the helicopter at that particular hospital. So I worked
26:50
Speaker 2: there too at that time, so I knew people in
26:53
Speaker 2: the er, so i'd see those people when I was
26:56
Speaker 2: in the emergency room at work, you know, so, hey,
26:59
Speaker 2: you brought that in again the other day, or we
27:01
Speaker 2: had or they tell me if somebody else brought him
27:03
Speaker 2: in and I wasn't on the call, Hey we had
27:05
Speaker 2: your kid in again, and you know, and talking about it.
27:09
Speaker 2: So they're asking question, because why this can keep coming
27:12
Speaker 2: back to It's like a boomerang or a bad penny
27:14
Speaker 2: to the er. And there's never anything wrong with him,
27:17
Speaker 2: with this mom who's supposedly a nurse. I can't answer that.
27:21
Speaker 2: It's weird. And in all the discussions, like I told
27:24
Speaker 2: the detective, was there always the same days of the week.
27:28
Speaker 2: Tuesdays was a common day, and Friday was a common
27:30
Speaker 2: day for the calls, and the time of day was
27:32
Speaker 2: a common time for the calls.
27:34
Speaker 1: I just had a question. You know, it's interesting that
27:36
Speaker 1: this detective is catching on and has come and told
27:40
Speaker 1: you all anytime there's a call, I'm going to be there.
27:43
Speaker 1: He shows up the first time, Tanya is like, Oh,
27:46
Speaker 1: who's this guy? It's not that unusual for a police
27:48
Speaker 1: officer to show up to it an I'm on one call,
27:50
Speaker 1: but then the same guy comes back again and again,
27:52
Speaker 1: and it's interesting that she keeps calling and this guy
27:55
Speaker 1: keeps showing up. Does her behavior change in a noticeable
28:00
Speaker 1: way once the same detective is coming around your recall?
28:04
Speaker 2: Is everybody's behavior changed? Because now everybody's what's Doug doing here?
28:11
Speaker 2: You know? I was a guy with a suit and
28:12
Speaker 2: a badge on his belt, you know, on a call. Well,
28:16
Speaker 2: everybody knew that they were watching, you know, if we
28:19
Speaker 2: ever go there, that he's going to be there. Cops
28:21
Speaker 2: and firefighter agencies are usually pretty tight knit anyway. But
28:26
Speaker 2: it was the last call that was a significant change
28:29
Speaker 2: because I said, you want to go to Methodist again?
28:32
Speaker 2: You know? And this one I think was more of
28:35
Speaker 2: a later evening call, and all of a sudden, she
28:38
Speaker 2: wanted to go to Mercy Hospital. She didn't want to
28:41
Speaker 2: go to Iowa Methodists. She wanted to go to the
28:43
Speaker 2: different the other big hospital in Des Moines switched up
28:46
Speaker 2: on us after all these trips going to Methodist.
28:49
Speaker 1: Did she offer a reason for that?
28:52
Speaker 2: No, she didn't like she was accusing them. You know,
28:55
Speaker 2: they don't care. They can't figure out what's wrong with him.
28:57
Speaker 2: I keep taking him there and they can't figure out
28:59
Speaker 2: what's wrong with him, and on and on.
29:02
Speaker 1: In a nineteen ninety five interview with NBC Seattle, author
29:06
Speaker 1: Greg Olsen, who had written a book about this case, Mockingbird,
29:09
Speaker 1: A Mother, A Child, A Tragedy, said that hospital staff
29:13
Speaker 1: began to notice that Tanya's young son did not want
29:16
Speaker 1: to be left alone with her. He didn't scream, In fact,
29:19
Speaker 1: he hardly spoke, but if it ever appeared to him
29:22
Speaker 1: that he and his mother, Tanya were about to be
29:24
Speaker 1: alone together, he would sit up in bed with a
29:26
Speaker 1: frightened look on his face. Maybe Tanya knew Iowa Methodist
29:31
Speaker 1: wasn't buying her story anymore. Maybe that's why on that
29:34
Speaker 1: very last call, Tanya demanded Matthew be taken to a
29:37
Speaker 1: new hospital.
29:39
Speaker 2: So she immediately blaming them for the reason she's going
29:43
Speaker 2: to a different places.
29:44
Speaker 1: What it was was that the only unusual thing about
29:47
Speaker 1: that last call? Or was there anything else? What was
29:51
Speaker 1: different about it?
29:51
Speaker 2: Well, I recall as we were getting out to the ambulance,
29:54
Speaker 2: the detective now is he's not just stand and watch
29:57
Speaker 2: and he's asking questions. I want to say he confronted her,
30:01
Speaker 2: but I think it's the equivalent of that. You know,
30:05
Speaker 2: he's now asking the mom questions and stuff out of
30:08
Speaker 2: the realm that we're asking. I can't hear the responses.
30:11
Speaker 2: I just know she got really defensive with the detective
30:15
Speaker 2: at that time. I do recall that. And then all
30:17
Speaker 2: of a sudden, we're switching hospitals. That whole trip to
30:21
Speaker 2: the hospital to Mercy that now I'm giving a report
30:24
Speaker 2: to a different hospital who knows nothing about what's been
30:27
Speaker 2: going on for the last eight months. You know, of
30:31
Speaker 2: us responding to this address with his kid.
30:34
Speaker 1: And over that approximately eight months or whatever it is,
30:37
Speaker 1: when you'd come, you know, there'd been whatever six seven,
30:40
Speaker 1: eight calls. Did he seem sicker, did he seem different,
30:43
Speaker 1: or did he still seem like he was fine?
30:45
Speaker 2: He wasn't as active as a two and a half
30:50
Speaker 2: three year old should be by the end, he just
30:52
Speaker 2: didn't meet normal standards in his demeanor, his affect. He
30:57
Speaker 2: was really quiet. He was unusually usually three year old's
30:59
Speaker 2: got a lot to say. They're trying to say if
31:01
Speaker 2: they know what they want to say, but you can't.
31:03
Speaker 2: They're trying to say it, you know, or they want
31:05
Speaker 2: their mom, or they're reaching out for mom or dad
31:09
Speaker 2: or whatever. And there was none of that. He was
31:12
Speaker 2: just chill. He was almost too chill. The rearview mirror
31:17
Speaker 2: is always crystal clear, so I look at it as
31:19
Speaker 2: he was in submission at that point, you know, looks
31:22
Speaker 2: like I'm going to the hospital again. Strangers are picking
31:25
Speaker 2: me up and putting me on a bed and giving
31:27
Speaker 2: me a ride. And he had no input, didn't care,
31:30
Speaker 2: pay any attention. It's just, you know, real flat affict
31:33
Speaker 2: and not a typical response.
31:35
Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking, Yeah, it is. I'm wondering, you know, before
31:40
Speaker 1: we get into sort of what the whole aftermath of
31:44
Speaker 1: these money calls from her home in Ermannil, Iowa. You know,
31:48
Speaker 1: when you hear that there's been nine on one calls
31:50
Speaker 1: on a toddler not breathing, having seizures, there's some suspicion
31:56
Speaker 1: or talk of the mother part way into these calls.
31:59
Speaker 1: Why is the child still in that mother's care? Can
32:02
Speaker 1: you speak to that at all? Like, when that happens,
32:04
Speaker 1: why is the child not like immediately sort of taken.
32:08
Speaker 2: Oh, that's what eventually ended up happening in this particular case,
32:13
Speaker 2: And I am not the authority to answer why they
32:16
Speaker 2: do a lot of what they do or don't do. Yeah,
32:19
Speaker 2: you know, it's what you think they should do, you know,
32:22
Speaker 2: when you're a witness it. But this thing, I think,
32:24
Speaker 2: just a lot of times with police involvement this case,
32:29
Speaker 2: keep in mind, they got to be careful. They slow
32:31
Speaker 2: walk a lot of stuff because they're building a case
32:34
Speaker 2: and they need evidence and they need something to stick
32:37
Speaker 2: before a county attorney will take it to court charge it.
32:41
Speaker 2: And I think that's why they were doing that in
32:44
Speaker 2: this particular case, because the kid didn't show real signs
32:49
Speaker 2: of physical abuse. I mean, he wasn't bruised up much
32:53
Speaker 2: or anything. I think he ended up having some bruises
32:57
Speaker 2: on his neck or something at some point, And I
33:00
Speaker 2: don't recall if it was my call or somebody else's.
33:03
Speaker 2: If he did have him, it would have been in
33:04
Speaker 2: my report. But I remember in an investigation after it
33:07
Speaker 2: all things came out to the hospital and the emergency department,
33:11
Speaker 2: a nurse noted, he's got a scratch on his cheek
33:16
Speaker 2: and a bruise on his either upper shoulder or neck
33:19
Speaker 2: or something like that. But I had never really documented
33:23
Speaker 2: child abuse physical child abuse.
33:26
Speaker 1: At what point do the calls stop and what do
33:30
Speaker 1: you hear about the case after that happens?
33:34
Speaker 2: For that last call, we never got called back there again.
33:38
Speaker 2: Call and not knowing I was going to be the
33:41
Speaker 2: final call, but after switching to a different hospital for
33:44
Speaker 2: the last call and then never going back there, plus
33:47
Speaker 2: you know, scuttle but rumors taking it for what it's worth.
33:52
Speaker 2: The oneman found out that she was charged in this
33:56
Speaker 2: case was when detectives showed up with a subpoena at
34:00
Speaker 2: paramedic base. I still remember that day welcome in and
34:05
Speaker 2: Supina and showed it to me as at a we
34:07
Speaker 2: need your log book.
34:09
Speaker 1: In August of nineteen eighty eight, Tanya Reid was arrested
34:12
Speaker 1: in Pope County, Iowa and charged with felony child endangerment.
34:16
Speaker 1: She had called nine one one reporting instances of Matthew
34:19
Speaker 1: having a seizure or not breathing nine times. But these
34:23
Speaker 1: nine one one calls, they didn't start in Iowa. They
34:26
Speaker 1: started when Matthew was just a baby and the family
34:29
Speaker 1: was still living in Texas, and they continued when the
34:32
Speaker 1: family moved briefly to Illinois and back to Texas before
34:36
Speaker 1: eventually moving to Urbandale, and over the course of that time,
34:39
Speaker 1: Matthew was hospitalized on at least eighteen different occasions. Neighbors
34:44
Speaker 1: in Urbandale reported that when the children were out playing
34:46
Speaker 1: and Tanya would come pick them up, Matthew would run
34:49
Speaker 1: from her. Tanya's arrest and the trial that followed was
34:52
Speaker 1: all over the news and in the papers. Pope County
34:55
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Melanie Haynes argued that Tanya Reid suffered from Munchausen
34:59
Speaker 1: by proxy mental illness and form of child abuse were
35:02
Speaker 1: a parent or caretaker faked symptoms of illness and a
35:04
Speaker 1: child hoping to garner sympathy or attention. And Toni was
35:08
Speaker 1: called to testify to explain what he'd seen on those
35:11
Speaker 1: calls at Tanya Reid's house and why he'd written the
35:14
Speaker 1: word bullshit in that log book. Do you remember seeing
35:19
Speaker 1: Tanya when you were testifying, like she was sitting there
35:22
Speaker 1: in court, and do you remember anything about what she
35:25
Speaker 1: looked like or her demeanor.
35:27
Speaker 2: She she was well quiet, but I mean she had
35:30
Speaker 2: these pretty distinct big glasses.
35:33
Speaker 1: Tanya maintained her innocence even in light of a shocking
35:37
Speaker 1: and tragic discovery. Pote County prosecutors had traced Tanya's life
35:42
Speaker 1: all the way back to Texas and found that she
35:44
Speaker 1: and Ray had lost a daughter back in February of
35:47
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four. That baby girl's name was Morgan Reed.
35:51
Speaker 1: She died at only eight months old. Her death was
35:53
Speaker 1: thought to have been caused by cardio respiratory arrest of
35:56
Speaker 1: unknown origin, but now armed with the understanding that Tanya
36:00
Speaker 1: had been intentionally harming Matthew, Morgan's death was reinvestigated, and
36:05
Speaker 1: underneath Morgan's cause of death was another finding, a cute
36:08
Speaker 1: subdural hematoma brain swelling that contains blood. Iowa's medical examiner
36:13
Speaker 1: concluded that Morgan's death was not a tragic health event,
36:16
Speaker 1: but murder. Morgan was born in nineteen eighty three while
36:20
Speaker 1: the family was living in Illinois, and Tanya repeatedly brought
36:23
Speaker 1: Morgan to the doctor while they were living there, and
36:26
Speaker 1: one of those doctors found Tanya's behavior and claims about
36:29
Speaker 1: Morgan highly suspicious, and he confronted her about it. He
36:33
Speaker 1: accused her of harming Morgan. But shortly after that confrontation,
36:37
Speaker 1: the Reed family moved back to Texas for raised job,
36:40
Speaker 1: and by February of nineteen eighty four, Morgan was.
36:43
Speaker 2: Dead and in relation to the death of her childhood Texas.
36:48
Speaker 2: Our state medical examiner here in Iowa, whom I knew.
36:52
Speaker 2: He was a modern day quincyt medic in those days
36:55
Speaker 2: and just tenacious as they come. He worked with the
37:00
Speaker 2: officials or authorities in Texas, so they were jointly. They
37:04
Speaker 2: exhumed the body for another autopsy in the death of
37:08
Speaker 2: that child, and she was subsequently charged for the death
37:12
Speaker 2: of a child in Texas, which superseded her child endangerment
37:16
Speaker 2: charges in Iowa. So she was extradited to Texas and
37:20
Speaker 2: jailed down there on that m That's what I remember
37:24
Speaker 2: how that progess.
37:26
Speaker 1: The investigation into Morgan Read's death told a new story.
37:31
Speaker 1: Morgan had died as a result of shaking baby syndrome.
37:34
Speaker 1: Investigators suspected that Tanya had smothered Morgan, hoping once again
37:38
Speaker 1: for recognition, having performed CPR and revived her baby, and
37:42
Speaker 1: when Morgan didn't immediately start breathing again, Tanya shook her,
37:45
Speaker 1: causing a fatal brain bleed. What did you learn about
37:49
Speaker 1: her life back in Texas?
37:52
Speaker 2: I learned that they had moved up here from Texas
37:55
Speaker 2: and her husband was working at one of the firestone
37:58
Speaker 2: rubber plants up here, and that she had been a nurse.
38:02
Speaker 2: But the big thing this came out in court. She
38:05
Speaker 2: didn't know they knew it. They found an old newspaper
38:07
Speaker 2: clipping where she received this good Neighbor award because she
38:12
Speaker 2: did CPR on a kid in her care and saved
38:16
Speaker 2: him and she got all his recognition. You know, she
38:19
Speaker 2: was a hero, and you know, everybody just saw it
38:22
Speaker 2: was awesome. So and then then all of a sudden,
38:25
Speaker 2: her husband transfers up to Iowa and they've moved the
38:28
Speaker 2: family up here, and he's working and she can't find where.
38:31
Speaker 2: She's stuck home with the kids, and so you start
38:34
Speaker 2: piecing this all together, and it became more They suspected
38:38
Speaker 2: that it was psychological.
38:40
Speaker 1: First responders who were present at Tanya Reed's house also
38:44
Speaker 1: said she seemed giddy when it was time for Matthew
38:46
Speaker 1: to be taken to the hospital. Hospital staff noted that
38:50
Speaker 1: she showed very little softness or compassion for him while
38:53
Speaker 1: he was there. You might picture a mother by her
38:55
Speaker 1: small child's bedside after they'd just lost consciousness or stopped breathing,
39:00
Speaker 1: basking an immense relief and gratitude that their child was alive,
39:04
Speaker 1: but not Tanya. She'd slam her hand down on the
39:07
Speaker 1: table and raise her voice if she thought Matthew was
39:09
Speaker 1: misbehaving in some way, because remember, he wasn't sick. Have
39:14
Speaker 1: you ever asked a toddler to hold still, to be
39:16
Speaker 1: confined to a small space or bed for hours while
39:19
Speaker 1: doctors poke and prodded them. Morgan Reed had been murdered,
39:23
Speaker 1: but Matthew he lived. He was removed from his mother's
39:27
Speaker 1: care and sent to live with a family member in Texas.
39:30
Speaker 1: I reached out to him for the story, but didn't
39:32
Speaker 1: hear back.
39:33
Speaker 2: He never had any problems again once he was away
39:36
Speaker 2: from the mom. Dang, fine and healthy. Curious where he
39:39
Speaker 2: is today? Oh, I hope he's doing well.
39:42
Speaker 1: I just was curious about the father, if he was
39:47
Speaker 1: questioned at all in the case, or if you remember
39:50
Speaker 1: hearing anything about what his stance was like? Was he
39:53
Speaker 1: charged or was he saying like I had no idea
39:57
Speaker 1: what was going on with him?
40:00
Speaker 2: An answer? Because I never interacted with the man. I
40:03
Speaker 2: couldn't even tell you what his demeanor was like because
40:05
Speaker 2: I never met it. He was on any of the
40:07
Speaker 2: calls that I was on that I never met the guy.
40:11
Speaker 1: After the interview, we dug into this. Raymond Reid was
40:14
Speaker 1: never charged with the crime, and eventually his kids were
40:17
Speaker 1: returned to his custody, where, just like Tony said, Matthew
40:20
Speaker 1: had no further issues with seizures or not breathing. They
40:25
Speaker 1: moved away from Urbandale after the trial and eventually redivorced
40:28
Speaker 1: to Tanya. Following her conviction in Iowa, Tanya was extradited
40:33
Speaker 1: to Texas and convicted of murdering Morgan Reid. That was
40:36
Speaker 1: on December thirteenth, nineteen ninety three, and she was sentenced
40:40
Speaker 1: to sixty two years, but that conviction was later overturned
40:44
Speaker 1: on appeal. Then, in June of nineteen ninety six, Reid
40:48
Speaker 1: was retried in Lubbock, Texas and convicted yet again of murder.
40:52
Speaker 1: She received a forty year sentence and was released around
40:55
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. With Tanya Reid's case, the talk
41:00
Speaker 1: was that she had something called Munchausen by proxy, which
41:03
Speaker 1: I think by now most of us have heard of.
41:05
Speaker 1: At the time, was that something you had heard of
41:08
Speaker 1: or had any familiarity with.
41:11
Speaker 2: I learned about it along with the rest of the
41:13
Speaker 2: world because of this case. I might have heard about
41:15
Speaker 2: it a little bit earlier because it was presented in court,
41:19
Speaker 2: and you learn a lot about it afterwards. And like
41:22
Speaker 2: I said, those investigators did a fabulous job of peace
41:26
Speaker 2: and it all together to make it make sense. Because
41:29
Speaker 2: nothing made sense, they made it make sense. You learn, basically,
41:35
Speaker 2: things are not always as they seem, and as an investigator,
41:39
Speaker 2: you got to be analytical, and so you don't just
41:42
Speaker 2: take everything at face value. There's an answer for everything.
41:45
Speaker 2: So I'm that guy. If I ask you a question
41:47
Speaker 2: and you answer it, so your answer, does it triggers
41:51
Speaker 2: another question, so you dig deeper, and you dig deeper,
41:54
Speaker 2: then I'll take your word for now. But I got
41:58
Speaker 2: to verify it totally.
42:00
Speaker 1: And I mean, it was so important that you were
42:01
Speaker 1: so observant that day, even in the midst of being
42:03
Speaker 1: told this child was unbreathing, because even though he was
42:07
Speaker 1: thinking that he isn't could easily have been your only focus.
42:14
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Tony for speaking with us
42:17
Speaker 1: about this case all of these years later. He said
42:20
Speaker 1: that he does still obviously get asked about it because
42:24
Speaker 1: it was something that made headlines all over the country
42:27
Speaker 1: and the world. Munchhausen biproxy wasn't something that was spoken
42:30
Speaker 1: about or really even known about in the early nineties
42:33
Speaker 1: as much as it is now, And frankly, I didn't
42:36
Speaker 1: really know that much about it other than what I've
42:39
Speaker 1: seen in sort of pop culture, and of course we've
42:42
Speaker 1: all heard of the case with gypsy. But Munchausen syndrome
42:46
Speaker 1: biproxy is a form of medical child abuse, and today
42:52
Speaker 1: I guess it's more formally called factitious disorder imposed on another.
42:56
Speaker 1: So it occurs when a mother or caregif exaggerates or
43:01
Speaker 1: induces his illness on someone in their care, which is
43:04
Speaker 1: usually a child, and the goal is not typically money
43:08
Speaker 1: or any external reward. And we touched on this in
43:11
Speaker 1: the interview, but Tanya read when she was a teenager
43:15
Speaker 1: was babysitting a child and she said that they stopped breathing,
43:19
Speaker 1: and she performed CPR, called on on one and ultimately
43:23
Speaker 1: the child was okay, and she received this good Neighbor award.
43:27
Speaker 1: Her picture was in the local newspaper, and it's possible
43:32
Speaker 1: that this is sort of the domino that started this
43:36
Speaker 1: for her, because it looked like it had a profound effect.
43:39
Speaker 1: She then went into nursing. She seemed to really enjoy
43:42
Speaker 1: the attention from giving CPR, and I think when this
43:46
Speaker 1: was all said and done, there was a lot of
43:48
Speaker 1: speculation that she was really lonely and she was home
43:51
Speaker 1: with these kids. She had left this nursing career and
43:55
Speaker 1: she was looking for attention and unfortunately went about getting
44:02
Speaker 1: it in the most just nefarious and unthinkable way. So
44:07
Speaker 1: that's our interview for today. Thanks for listening, and we'll
44:11
Speaker 1: be back next week. If you have a story for us,
44:15
Speaker 1: we would love to hear it. Our email is The
44:17
Speaker 1: Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or you can follow us
44:20
Speaker 1: on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky
44:23
Speaker 1: at the Knife Podcast. This has been an Exactly Right
44:26
Speaker 1: production hosted and produced by me Hannah Smith and me
44:29
Speaker 1: Pasha Et. Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
44:33
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
44:37
Speaker 1: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
44:40
Speaker 1: the Airport artwork fivansa Lilac executive Produced by Karen Kilgarriff,
44:44
Speaker 1: Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.