Latest / The Flatpicking Podcast / #7 Rosewood or Mahogany?

Transcript

#7 Rosewood or Mahogany? · The Flatpicking Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Hayes, why um why do you hate rosewood guitars so much?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: And why do you why do you hate people who play rosewood guitars?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is a long-standing belief that you've had.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Don't deny it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: For you've pretty much I would say most people consider this one of the defining elements of my personality and flat pit guitar style.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all yeah, it seems like your public presence really as a teacher, as a performer, has all kind of been like a bit of a Trojan horse, I would say, you know, for this agenda that you have to rid the world of Rosewood guitars.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, which I find kind of personally offensive, uh, because I didn't know this until somebody told me, but I believe this is Indian Rosewood that I'm looking at here, this this bourgeois guitar, which uh I hand selected from uh the one guitar that my sister's letting me borrow.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I could have played anything, but I did choose to play the one guitar that was available to me.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize Grace let you borrow that.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, actually, you know what, you know, folks, I actually don't have a guitar.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've got an electric guitar.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a telecaster around here, but I don't have an acoustic guitar.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So uh all of this um this this whole enterprise that we're embarking on here is you know pretty much completely dependent on whether or not my sister lets me continue to borrow this or maybe have to go buy a guitar at some point.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I bring this up, this uh, you know, tongue in cheek about rosewood guitars.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I actually have no idea how you feel about rosewood guitars, but um I did have a conversation with Tony Watt, uh mutual friend of ours and many guitar players, and I think you know, he's got a preference, I think, against Indian rosewood is uh is the case.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how common that is, and I don't know the difference between the various rosewoods or any of them, except that he picked up his guitar, played it for a while, and said, uh, yeah, Indian rosewood, and gave it back.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I didn't I didn't take it too personally, you know, as it is not my guitar, and uh and and for for various reasons.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it does sometimes make me wonder about about the various uh woods they're used or the way people choose these guitars, because I'm kind of in the market, I guess, to to be looking at guitars at some point if I do want to own one of my own.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh so maybe this is just opening up this discussion of of what's going on with all these different guitars and how do you feel about rosewood guitars?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing it, we're cracking this open today, aren't we?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're doing it.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a gear episode, yeah.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I'm with you because this kind of um befudled me a little bit.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I when I first came into Bluegrass, I didn't know much about gear.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was kind of like you.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had a telecaster, and you know what I mean?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like a I had just bought before I got into Bluegrass, I had just bought my first what I considered really good guitar.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was a Taylor 410 CE.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So a dreadnought with a cutaway.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we all know where this is headed right now.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you show up to a bluegrass jam session in central Ohio with your you know, Sapele, you know, uh Taylor 410 CE.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: People have thoughts on that pretty quick.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, and this is in a in a middle period where this isn't the vintage.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are some vintage that that have a certain opinion about them.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's this new thing that Trey Hensley's playing, and that's a certain thing.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's that middle period.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Look, uh I'm not I'm not here to look down on any guitar, but if we're talking about how you might be perceived if you were to go out there in the bluegrass world, you know, it's it's not always uh sunshine and rainbows when you're talking about Taylor.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh not that that should influence anyone on whether or not they're enjoying their own personal guitar, but but that's there's a reality of of the perception and and that sort of thing.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's, you know, people say that bluegrassers are really guilty of this thing, which we are.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a a big like, you know, kind of dogma or whatever surrounding like the the look of the instrument that you should be playing, right?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that exists.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh like I'm not I'm not like you know making excuses for the grassers, but that exists in every genre of music, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you show up to a metal gig with a you know a a shell pink fender jazz master, you know what I mean?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's a you know what I mean, it's a different thing, you know, but on a surf gig, you're set, you know.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I figured that out pretty early on, and I was lucky enough that I had a teacher at that point in time that kind of pulled me aside, and uh he had some nice guitars and some some friends with nice guitars, and we played through a bunch of them, you know.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, here's what a Martin D28 is.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is the gold standard of a bluegrass guitar.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is what every bluegrass guitar player has played since the 40s, you know.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I was like around, I guess, like 19 or 20 when I first started really paying attention to the thing that you opened the podcast with today, this like rosewood versus mahogany thing, because there was this elitism with like Martin versus non-Martin, you know what I mean?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of I jumped over that hump.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: I got a Martin D28 when I was 19.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, let's sell the Taylor, let's get the D28 so I don't get laughed at.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then I get my D28, and I'm like, man, this thing is really like I love the overtones on it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's got this like lush, you know, bottom end and all this kind of stuff, but I I felt like my leads were getting buried.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh one of my teacher's friends at the time had a uh a 50s D18, you know, and and that thing cut, you know, it's got that really woody, kind of dry, um a little less like uh what do I want to say, like fewer overtones in in like the bottom end, you know what I mean?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point in time, like I started, I was really getting into like uh greer, you know what I mean, and and solo arrangements of flat pick fiddle tunes.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And for some reason, like at that point in time, I became obsessed.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: I played every mahogany guitar I could get my hands on, back and forth between my guitar and that guitar.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I think I just like mahogany better for what I do, you know, like it's got that crystal clear kind of punch uh to each note.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: It really cuts a mic well if you're in like a loud band setting and stuff.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I'm not saying it's better or worse, that just for me personally, like something really resonated about mahogany.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like 20 or 21 years old and like kind of like you didn't know this, but I actually am like a mahogany guy.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Every guitar that I have right now, uh save for one, is mahogany, and that in that one guitar is black walnut.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not even a rosewood guitar that's that's like different, you know.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some people call that North American mahogany, uh, because it's got the same kind of you know, like tonal characteristics to it.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, like when you play enough of them back and forth, and what you know, maybe you tell me your experience on this, there to me, there is a distinct, if we're just gonna like generally zoom out to the like families of woods, there is a distinct difference between mahogany types of of backwood and rosewood types of backwood.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I won't even get into the like Brazilian versus Indian versus Grenadillo versus any of that right now.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: But but generally speaking, you know, when I sit down and play a guitar and and I can usually tell, like if I was like blindfolded, I could usually tell is this a mahogany versus like a rosewood kind of thing.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um but what about you, man?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: What what's been your experience since you, you know, you're borrowing Grace's guitar, you know, you've you've got a really you've kind of got the hot rod of Indian rosewood guitars, which is like what I had too when I was getting started out that D28, you know.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, man.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I mean it's it's a funny thing because I think in some ways I kind of leapfrogged the experience of having a series of guitars that were uh, you know, either not what I was eventually looking for or that would be kind of I don't want to say like holding me back, but like I didn't I had that experience when I first played guitar when I was a kid, as I had this like little classical guitar with nylon strings that I was playing ACDC on, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had I had that experience as a 12-year-old.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But then I when I kind of returned to the guitar, you know, like six months ago, um, I just borrowed this guitar that's like whether or not it's your preference for how like your favorite tone, it's a great guitar.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like this could very easily just be pro-level, you know.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I had this conversation with Charlie Cushman, um uh great banjo player, um, who sets up banjos and does a lot of work on them and everything.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he was setting up a banjo of mine that it's not one of the hundred thousand dollar pre-war Gibbs, but it's one of the um, you know, some of it's pre-war, some of it's not, but good banjo.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he he said the best thing, which was he said there's a lot of there's a lot of touring banjo players playing worse banjos than this one, you know.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was like kind of like a um uh like this instrument's not holding you back, you know, like you the sky's the limit with this instrument.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you can go to the next level and get the you know,$100,000 pre-war banjo, but uh that's how it feels with this guitar, that it's like whether or not it's exactly the right guitar, um, I I should be able to do anything I want to do with this guitar, and and it's got the headroom for my skill that I'm not, you know, I'm not getting maxed out here.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that, I don't really have a ton of experience with other um dreadnoughts, especially uh since I've been paying attention.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's been times where there's guitars I've played that I somebody just handed to me to hold on to for a second, or that I just played a rhythm little rhythm and a jam, and I didn't even think about it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you play enough and you you have enough friends that like once in a while you'll play one of these pre-war Martins.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I've probably played four or five pre-war Martins just because a friend had it and I played it for a minute, but I didn't think about it for a second.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't care.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, this is a good guitar.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, moving on with my life.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now I wish I kind of had that perspective.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um I need to go around to all my friends and and play the guitars again.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now I need to go call up everybody and say, hey, hey, hey, I need to try everything you've got.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um because I'm I got some friends we should call.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, so it'll be it'll be interesting.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I definitely know, you know, if I think about um the well, I think a good example would be like um uh Tony Watt is a good example.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a good friend of mine, ours, uh plays a lot of mahogany guitars.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, is it maybe like Brian Sutton is more on the Rosewood side of things?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is that true?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think I mean he plays a lot of these Bougeois guitars.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So so I think I have a little bit of an idea based on the players that I've heard and heard them talking about it, but not the first hand experience.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely something I want to learn, uh learn more about.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: One of the challenges being, you know, uh you can go to a bunch you can go to a guitar center and try a bunch of guitars that uh aren't necessarily in the niche of what we're looking for.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I could go play a bunch of Taylors, which might be fine, or I might, you know, whatever.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a bunch of guitars I could go play that aren't gonna give me a good idea of what the specific sound we're going for is.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Although I was on the my local guitar center site because they always have Wii Used stuff around, you know, like there's always something.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there was I think it's like a 2006 or 2008 Santa Cruz Tony Rice model, you know, for like 10 grand or something like that, you know.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they go for crazy stuff now, especially, but it's like, okay, actually, it might be worth the trip just to like see what the deal is there.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's one of the kind of uh uh it's something people do choose to play.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: They say, okay, that model guitar.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Tony played the Santa Cruz for a while, you know, here and there.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's ex that's totally within the realm of like, okay, this will teach me something about what these guitars sound like.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh, but this one that I've got here, yeah.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the bourgeois vintage D Adirondack top.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, and um, you know, and uh and it's and it's good, I dig it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um but when I play with like when we were playing at Swan and Noah, I didn't have my guitar, I had uh David's um David Benedict lent me a small body recording king.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't really have a good way of comparing that because the strings were a lighter gauge, smaller guitar.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean everything about it was like this is not really what I'm used to.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: But hearing your callings, I did have the memory of being like, that's a really different sound from what I've been what I've been used to, right?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I played your guitar a little bit and I was like, okay, there's clearly a big enough difference here that I need to kind of like line up a bunch of stuff and and see what they all feel like.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, man.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's that's a good segue into like if you are new to this, what what buzzwords do we need to pay attention to?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And like what specs are we actually what should we be quantifying when we're looking at these guitars so that we can like accurately categorize them in my mind?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because some of the stuff, as you were just talking there, you said that you know you played my guitar and noticed that it was a like much different voice than the one that you're used to playing at home and stuff like that.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think there are a few different elements uh about this guitar that are that are kind of unique, maybe compared to the average mahogany guitar.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you're playing a bourgeois vintage D.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the pro series or the touchstone, by the way?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm not sure.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's older.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's I think it might be.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: It would probably be like their pro what they're calling their pro series now, then if it's older.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's probably gotta be at least 10 years old.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: All American made that one, because they kind of have the yeah, the the touchstone is the one that's that's like half made overseas.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, the vintage D, like you said, um, I'm pretty sure, you know, I'm looking at the specs right now.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh pretty sure that that's like a forward shift um X brace rosewood guitar, you know what I mean?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's got like the pre-war specs on it.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for those of you that are listening to this and don't know what I'm talking about, generally speaking, there are like uh there are like two bracing patterns that people talk about.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's a a forward shifted X-brace pattern that people talk about for the top of of dreadnought guitars in a rear shifted X-brace pattern.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Forward shifted happened up to like, oh man, was that like 39 or something like that?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it was like after 1939.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: I someone, you know, I'm gonna get roasted in the comments for this one because I don't know like when did when did they switch from forward to rear shifted X-bracing?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I'm pretty sure 39 uh-ish, you know, uh was when they did forward versus rear shifted X-bracing, like made the transition.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people say that those forward shifted guitars have a lot more like punch and power and headroom to them.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you get the more volume because like the braces are shifted this way, which allows this part of the guitar to like vibrate more freely, is kind of how I've heard it, you know.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then for the rear shifted, they they tuck them back this way a little bit, that stiffens the top a little bit, and then um gives you a different tonal quality.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the only reason I wanted to bring that up first is that in my opinion, that has a much more like drastic effect on the tone of your guitar than the rosewood versus mahogany thing.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, the the top bracing pattern and the top wood are like super do that's where I start with this kind of stuff, at least in my mind.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like typically I I go for the the forward shifted X brace, Adirondack Spruce Top.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Adirondack Spruce is a is a stiffer version of spruce than sitka, what you see.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: So people say that it has a little bit more punch and volume to it than the sitka naturally.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what's funny is so like my my calling CW, that's my main axe that I've got behind me, the one that I won at Winfield two years ago.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a forward-shifted X-brace, Adirondack spruce, mahogany guitar, so kind of like yours, but but mahogany.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's got a larger sound hole, so kind of like the Tony Rice model.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then this one that I have is a Collins D1.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: They call it a prototype because they they um braced it differently.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a mahogany sitka spruce guitar with rear shifted X braces.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like all the all the way in the other direction, kind of uh exactly.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this is like kind of my main like road type of guitar now.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's like night and day with my other mahogany guitar.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: You might even like if you sat down and played both of my guitars, you might even think that my CW was a rosewood guitar in comparison to this one, because this one's really got that like crystalline kind of sound.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's maybe not as much booming bottom end to it and stuff like that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but people talk about these rear shifted guitars um having more of like a like articulated, uh like mid-range forward sound that kind of cuts a mic really well, you know?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if we're talking about like vintage guitars, like I said, we're kind of talking about anything that's like after like 1940 and and more specifically, maybe the late 40s, because this one they do what they call straight brace instead of taper bracing.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: So taper bracing, uh, if you've ever seen an X-brace pattern, you know, they typically kind of like get thinner as it moves out to the end of the brace.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: This one, it's just like a straight bar, like they just scoop the brace and they don't shape it on the side.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So there's more wood on the braces here, which once again keeps the top from vibrating as much and gives it a different kind of sound.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so to me, those are the specs that a lot of people should really be looking at.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would say almost like first before you're do digging into this rosewood versus mahogany thing.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what kind of top bracing do you have um on that guitar?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that being said, most guitar companies, even Yamaha these days, is doing uh forward shifted X bracing on their guitars because they recognize that that was like the legendary period of Martin guitars and people like that sound, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um But that's that's one of the things that I I almost look at first is like what's that bracing pattern on the dreadnought that I'm looking at, you know?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think um, and then you know, in terms of like, you know, because because I'm probably gonna go drop by a couple guitar stores here and there, or or at least pay more attention when I'm hanging out with friends and learning the guitar, it it seems like one of those things where like you kind of have to you kind of have to like try a bunch of stuff and see what the sound they sound like, and then try to just like make a note of those kind of important things, right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, um, you know, especially for for me right now, what it feels like I might need to do is not look for anything in particular, but try everything and then say, okay, what are the different woods being used?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's the bracing pattern, uh, forward, rear shift, whatever it is, and try to like make a mental note of like try to make some connections and say, I liked all these guitars and they had this thing in common.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, because at the moment it's like the this is all kind of theoretical to me.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so I I definitely know people who, especially in the banjo world, I know people who've kind of like got their opinion on their favorite specs without really having the experience of of hearing that many of them, you know what I mean?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, obviously, T Like you need a one-piece flange, you know, a one-piece flange is the only way to go when you're like yes, exactly, exactly.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, it's god, it's so funny.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it especially with banjos, I just barely have an understanding of what I prefer.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh basically only between um uh like mahogany and maple.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, and and for the most part, that's really just the neck that is the difference.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of the main thing that I hear and say, yeah, that I prefer mahogany over maple, most or I can tell the difference.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's so many other things that that uh you'd have to, you know, you people say, like, what tone ring do you like?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, have you tried that tone ring in like 10 different banjos?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Have you tried 10 different tone rings in that one banjo?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you like it, then good, but it's really, really hard to to say that one is actually better unless you have a crazy amount of experience.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: We were just before we started recording, we were just talking about Gabe Hirschfeld, um great friend of ours who who sadly passed last year and uh, or I guess earlier this year, and um and the amount of experience that he had playing different instruments, I would really trust anything he said about, you know, the thickness of the rim or one piece flange or two piece flange, all this banjo stuff.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like it was enough for me to be like, oh, actually, I have no idea.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have to hear this stuff, or I have to ask him for advice.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I'm feeling now in guitar, is like I got I've got nothing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I can't truly say, you know, which is why when you say you're playing a tailor, it's like I know to to chuckle because I'm like, ah yeah, everybody played a tailor, and then they realize that, but actually, I have no idea.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I have no way of really knowing, you know, what the what my preference would be.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it really doesn't serve me to to make that judgment without hearing it first.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I joke about going to Guitar Center and trying the one guitar.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I should go to Guitar Center and I should go to my local guitar shop who probably has other stuff.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: But anyways, because I want to go try that Santa Cruz model, I should go to Guitar Center Guitar Center and play like 20 different guitars because that's really stock d28 against it right like to see all this like to get that pecking order that you're talking about at least sort of operational in your mind yeah yeah understand really why there's a there's a difference here's a a question you know I assume you've played a good number of uh D18s D twenty eights over the years you know I'm sure you played some pre-war ones and 60s 70s to the to the modern ones would you say that because I because you were kind of describing the differences between the 28 and the 18 uh that that it seemed like the 18 was oh this is something I'm I'm into right would you say the differences between those over the years whether or not they're like the same as the the pre-war ones would you say that like the difference between a modern D18 and D28 is still the same like there's still you would still pick one or the other just based on those those basic specs, you know irrespective irrespective of the of the year I guess.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's something that's interesting because as you were saying that I was like oh my gosh I think I do have different preferences throughout each Martin era.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh you know what I mean?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So like a lot of people look at right if we were to categorize these things the pre-war Martin guitars at least up to like the what was it that 39 threshold that I'm talking about that everyone's going to roast me for because I got it wrong.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's the like forward shifted X brace period, right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then after that is the rear shifted but still scallop X brace so lighter braces but like shoved back.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: After that they they stopped scalloping the braces so it was rear shifted with taper brace.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's like late 40s through the 50s and 60s.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then some people are saying that they even you know through the 60s and 70s they start cutting the tops thicker the braces are thicker and that's that's when stuff kind of people say like starts to fall off at Martin but 80s we start to come back again they reintroduced the Martin HD 28 so they start doing their first herring bones again in the I think it was 80 or 81 those are legendary guitars they've got you know the the pre-war kind of specs on them you know like forward shifted X brace kind of thing.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So all that to say now that you know that that exists as like a framework like generally speaking I prefer the mahogany guitars from each era.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So like if we're talking like a modern D28 and a modern D18 they have enough of that spirit of the original kind of Martin bracing in there.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Martin has gotten they've kind of wised up and figured out that most people want that older kind of construction in Martin sound.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that you can kind of if you're playing some of these older guitars and you go into a a a shop and you're playing new guitars you can carry some of that mentality with you is what I'm getting at.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I would still generally tend to prefer a new Martin D18 over a new Martin D28.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah now things get murky in the 50s for me because I love the 50s D28s.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: They've got that rear shifted X brace pattern.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So to me they sound a little like brighter and mid-ranger than like the the pre-war D28s.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um so like that's where rosewood that flavor does kind of speak to me a little bit more but I think that's just like some weird pedantic preference that I've come to from all the years of just doing the crap we're talking about, you know like listening to the the Gabe Hirschfelds of the world and experimenting and doing stuff.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean I was in my late twenties before I could even accurately I would say form these opinions because like you were saying I didn't have a data set that was big enough to kind of even determine I I would just play a guitar and be like I like the sound of that one.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah so that's the guitar I'm gonna play.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's nice I like it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a beauty between the two oh definitely yeah I mean at the end of the day that has to be the last uh you know that's the that's the end all be all of making a decision is that you it feels comfortable and it sounds good.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean there's there isn't there truly isn't much more to it than that but you know you you you want to well that's what we do we we get nerdy and we try to make as informed a decision as possible or you just want to try it and yeah I mean do you think in terms of resources where you learned a lot of this stuff because I think uh you know there there's there's a pre-war Gibson banjo book or a number of them that kind of give the rundown on how they were built different years and and kind of different conventions that were somewhat common.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean Gibson is a little bit of a anomaly uh or the banjo thing is a little bit tough because the there it was a little haphazard uh pre-war you know and and maybe that was the same with guitars we should talk about Gibson guitars too but um yeah uh is is there like a particular resource you can recommend for any of this stuff or was it really that you were kind of trying guitars and then asking people who knew you know what's the what's up with this guitar?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, was it more that yeah I I would say for me it was a bit of a mixture I was when I was coming up you know old man's speech it was like early internet times you know what I mean so there weren't quite as many resources just like you couldn't Google about this stuff and learn a lot of info.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the people that were were most kind of influential for me were like the local luthiers and builders around here because they obviously studied all those techniques and kind of had that data set that we're talking about.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So for me talking to the guy that set up my guitar is Todd Sam's at the time um he's a great banjo player actually if you don't know Todd you totally should um he works at Stu Mac he he uh you know runs their CNC machines if you've ever played a kit instrument from Stu Mac then Todd had something to do with it um but he built me a guitar my first custom guitar was from Todd and it was built exactly like this one it was a rear shifted straight brace D18 um because he was like I think you're gonna like this flavor that was kind of like his and I trusted his recommendation you know what I mean I was like I was like okay sure um and he knew that my grandma had a 1949 D18 and that I liked the sound of it you know what I mean so it was I think that was part of my early falling in love with D18s was just kind of like I had one that I liked I talked about it nonstop and then the people around me were like well if you like that one you should try this one you know what I mean it was like that kind of thing um kind of an org so I would say that that was a lot of my early education and then the rest of it was like learning the buzzwords from Todd and those guys and then how do I interpret the uh the kind of like spec sheets and materials that these companies are putting out because collings and bourgeois they use all of these these buzzwords you know what I mean they're like they're like well we we stick to pre-war specs and you're like well what does that mean yeah you know and it's everything I talked about usually pre-war specs means forward shifted scalloped x bracing adder on toxruce top so like when you when you learn how to kind of like pair those things that I learned from Todd with some of the spec sheets and things like that that manufacturers started to to put out after this vintage Martin thing kind of had a renaissance I think that was how I I kind of like cobbled together my at least worldview of what you know acoustic guitars were totally oh it's interesting.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean it like every it always comes back to this I feel like we've talked about this in every episode that like it always comes back to if you're curious about something and you're asking certain questions like what's the best Martin guitar?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of wood should I you know what kind of like if you're looking for recommendations like that, you know, same question as like what tunes should I learn?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: What should you know it's a little bit you know this I don't I don't mean to be um I'm saying this to myself not to anyone else but maybe if this resonates with you.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm saying you know like if I'm asking myself those questions like what kind of wood is best for a bluegrass guitar, you're kind of not curious enough um because it's like you know there's obviously no answer to that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: But what you're describing is like uh you know just by being an active participant in in the stuff that you're doing, right?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like trying guitars, being curious about them, talking to people, kind of taking people's advice and kind of evaluating what kind of experience they have.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it sounds like he's got like the kind of experience we're talking about like would really hundreds thousands of these guitars and and knows the kind of commonalities between them which you you know you you need someone like that that you can trust and then say okay they say this is a good example of this type of guitar I can kind of listen to this and and try to categorize that say okay this is what this kind of guitar sounds like now you have a benchmark or something but but you can't get any of that by asking the question like well which what's the best one?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Just give me the best one you know that's I mean it's really great for what we're doing to ask those questions because it gets people angry and commenting and stuff like that.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah exactly.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah but but like if if your if your goal is to actually find the the instrument in the voice that you like I get what you're saying.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: The question maybe needs to be a little deeper and a little less binary in that way.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is good versus what is bad.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's no it's like what's the difference what's the difference between a mahogany forward shifted guitar versus a rear shifted guitar?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference between a uh forward shifted rosewood and a forward shifted mahogany what's the difference you know I think when you start like you're saying getting curious about those like pedantic minutia that that everyone you know that that like your friends start rolling their eyes at when you get too down deep down the rabbit hole like that's the stuff that'll actually lead you to your your preference and everything.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and ultimately it's up to you right like you're kind of almost alluding to here right like it's it's your curiosity and your uh taste that's going to lead you toward the right answer not what you know Todd Sams or Hayes Griffin or Eli Gilbert says is the best you know version of anything.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: So totally totally well yeah and it's you know I I'm I won't say guilty but I I I watch all the videos of you know Carter Vintage posts a bunch of videos of Jake Workman and David Greer and Billy Strings and whoever playing all these great guitars some of which are you know vintage Martins or whatever they are and some of them are newer guitars.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a bunch of channels that'll do the same thing music emporum um up here in New England and you know it and it can be really great to hear some of these instruments especially played really well um but you know I can only speak from experience with a banjo that I've never had an experience listening to someone else play an instrument in a video that has translated to a real understanding of how I would like that instrument.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's never and I've I've watched videos of instruments and then played them later and I'm like huh I didn't think it was going to feel like that.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think it was going to sound like that when I played it um because you know I'm not when I play the instrument I'm not hearing it through the microphone uh that they played it through and I'm not playing like so and so who played it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah it can be kind of an interesting it it it's a good piece of marketing and I'm not saying it's not useful but it's not I would not buy an instrument sight unseen uh based on how David Greer sounds playing it um uh because I'm nothing I do is going to make it sound like that.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: It might be a great instrument but I have no idea based on um you know how somebody else is going to play it with I mean even with a different pick.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it could be it could be a million it could be a million things that that don't equate to what it's going to sound like when I play it even just that.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's really you know you have to you have to play this stuff.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know I will say it it's a little bit up to someone's tolerance for like if if if whoever you're you know you don't necessarily always have a chance to play everything that you want to buy but you know if you're willing to go through the legwork of buying something and then shipping it back when you don't like it.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I just don't have the patience for that so I try to play it before I buy it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you know you could you could do that too I guess uh but it it really it's such a personal thing and and you have to decide okay how does this sound mic how does this sound on stage how does it sound when I'm playing it to myself and what are the different use cases that I'm gonna put it through like you know there's been there's been instruments I've played that sound great on stage.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean a lot of instruments sound great on stage there's a there's a different threshold for what it's needs to sound like at a festival outside into a you know uh 58 or something like that uh 57 whatever whatever you end up using but if you play that like in a in a nice treated room to yourself you're like oh this sounds terrible you know but it was fine on stage and vice versa so um you really have to kind of think about what your your um what your goal is uh for for that tone right which which is hard to get that information from watching a 30 second video of the with some of the greatest guitar players ever um you know recording pretty much impossible to get that information right like you said there are just so many factors the pick can change the tone of the guitar so much the angle of attack the mass of your fingers the way that you touch the you know what I mean there's so many things I think the biggest example that comes to my mind like Todd I I was talking about Todd Sam's my buddy a minute ago um he's had Tony's guitars or guitar in his hands the antique you know um he he's buddies with Wyatt he built Wyatt Rice one of the guitars that he tours with and stuff like that so he's gotten to know the the Rice brothers and everything Todd said that that guitar in his hands and some of the other people around him was the deadest sounding guitar he's ever you know what I mean they just couldn't make it work.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: The nut width was so narrow you know people talk about that on Tony's guitar and it they said it was almost just like they didn't have Tony's touch so they didn't know how to access the sound of that instrument you know um and I think that is such a huge that almost negates everything we've talked about up to this point in the episode you know what I mean but I I I think it bears discussion because that's a you know the hands matter the player matters the most you know um yeah I I think Trey Hensley in my opinion is a great example because you kind of brought up his Taylor a minute ago one I've played one of those new Taylor 510 E's and they kick butt those guitars any bluegrass guitar player out there who wants an affordable loud like like articulate clean sounding instrument I've played three of those things buy one man they're 2700 bucks you know what I mean like the if you've if you're if you're looking to kind of jump into the the threshold of a high end you know like American made acoustic guitar I think that's a perfect jumping off point it's got a pickup in it all that kind of stuff um but that said Trey Hensley you know changes guitars like he changes underwear in in a lot of his videos over the last five years he's got a different guitar in every video and he still sounds like Trey Hensley you know you're not sitting there like well his you know articulation on the hus is a little better than that you know what I mean no but nobody's saying that they're like they're like watching Trey play you know yep yep yeah and it's like especially especially because Trey posts a lot of videos online which is which is great to watch but then it's like always in a different room or it's outside or it's like there's there's so many factors that it's just like yeah you can't you can't judge it just by that I mean you can judge this is an instrument capable of getting this sound.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean yeah if you heard him playing like a tiny plastic toy guitar uh you would know the difference but really the only standard that truly matters at the end of the day is like is this a pro level instrument right or is it or is it decent is it decent and at that point any any of the guitar players we listen to are going to make something worth listening to on it there's a great video which I go back to all the time uh that I think Fredboard Journal put out on their YouTube channel and it's the Norman Blake Whiskey before breakfast guitar.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uh it's the guitar that he didn't I don't think he played it on the record but if you listen to the if you check out the the vinyl of Whiskey before breakfast that that Norman Blake record it's the in the picture he's holding this guitar.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I can't remember what it is it might be a D18 I don't know as if that would mean anything to me it's that it's that old slot head 12 fretter right that you're talking about is it that one or is this a different one?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: No it's not that one it's um uh maybe I'll I'll look it up while I talk about this but um the uh the interesting thing is so it's one second let me get this yeah I'm looking looking too uh so it's a cool video it's it's pretty long and there's like a um a uh almost like a documentary where I think it was Bob Miner that was able to borrow this guitar for a while um and invited it's Chris Eldridge Brian Sutton Bob Miner and Kenny Smith and they sit around talking about you know their experience with Norman Blake and uh yeah it's a D18 that's what it is yeah it's a 36 D18 that's what it is so you know so it's one of the 14 freters yeah oh interesting okay yeah um and in that way uh you know that they all play it you can really tell uh you it's a good example of that because they they all have their own guitars many of which I think actually all of which are pre-war Martins I mean it's a pretty cool lineup of guitars anyway but then uh at different points in the video they each play the guitar they each play a tune uh on this this guitar and it just sounds like them you know Chris sounds like Chris and Bob sounds like Bob Brian sounds like Brian and Kenny's you know it's especially you hear the difference between like you know Brian Sutton and Kenny Smith that's kind of the coolest thing where it's like this sounds like this is Brian Sutton's guitar and then Kenny plays and it's like this sounds like it's Kenny's guitar right like it uh it's kind of amazing and and the cool thing is none of them sound like Norman Blake you know absolutely even when they play the tunes you know they all play tunes that he is kind of known for playing um it doesn't matter it's it's like you kind of can't escape it.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I never I don't know I I think I've definitely I wouldn't say like wasted time but I've definitely spent a lot of time being like well if I play this certain instrument that's this certain configuration I can kind of lean into this sound and sound more like JD Crow whatever it is.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like not really I mean you you that's that happens kind of regardless of the instrument that's something you were you're working on just in your ear.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that's in your ear and then in the way that you kind of attack any instrument um you know and and and that's a that's a bigger part of it.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I find that pretty fascinating.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Check out that video if you haven't um uh the Norman Blake Whiskey before breakfast yeah it's a lot of great stories about Norman also and their kind of experience um you know familiarizing themselves with his his catalog and all that stuff and then yeah uh just hearing them play is is amazing too I mean yeah it's pretty great.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've got her bookmarked here.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I saw uh a piece of this a few years back when it came out but I'm definitely more interested now.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um big shout out to Bob Miner too that guy's awesome and what a great historian of the Norman Blake style because he knows Norman he's pals with him and stuff so if you guys want to know more about that kind of stuff then follow Bob on social media.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah um yeah Bob reached out to me on Instagram uh a few weeks back we gotta have him on the podcast dude I think we need some Bob Miner education up in here yeah definitely and he's so he so Bob is uh who does he he plays guitar with um Tim McGraw.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Tim McGraw that's who it is yeah yeah yeah so it's funny because I I think I didn't know about Bob until maybe I don't know not that long ago um because I think to some extent he's probably keeps pretty busy with with that gig um yeah I I get that that sense yeah I think so yeah so but in the last you know five six years maybe longer than that he's put out a couple records and and done some collaboration with people more in the bluegrass world which is really kind of where he you know in some ways comes from as a guitar player it seems like but uh kind of re maybe resurfaced uh and yeah it's cool to getting to know his playing because I had no idea for a long time um but uh yeah he's got a he's got a great record called solo from maybe just the last couple of years that's like yeah just like some of the most beautiful tone and just like I don't know really kind of reserved really precise and beautiful playing but really reserved like it's I don't want to say careful because it's not tentative but it's like very he takes care with with the arrangements that he's playing and it really comes across um it's really elegant stuff.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's cool note means something I totally get what you're saying dude I I love Bob's play in that way.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know related to this kind of like guitar gear discussion he was one of the first guys that I saw rocking colling's guitars that made me kind of like perk up and be like, you know, because I think I had seen a handful of them out there.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Bob's obviously an expert in like the pre war of Martin stuff and knows all those things, you know and then to see a guy like hanging his hat on one specific brand, you know what I mean?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like huh I gotta check out one of these comics Collins guitars and see what they're all about.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and obviously now I'm like all in on that, but he and um you know I'm trying to think of some of the the early Collins adopters, obviously Kenny Smith, you know.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: So like I I guess if we're talking about watching all those guys, like what am I what connection am I trying to make here?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: I saw all these guys fawning over these pre-war guitars like Kenny Smith and Bob Mitter and stuff, and then I look at the guitars that they play when they're on the road, and a lot of them were choosing Collins, and I was like, you know, interesting, interesting.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's something here, you know.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I I was um definitely roped into the collings thing as a result of seeing those guys, and I think for good reason because collings, while they do have their own voice and kind of like construction techniques that they they like to talk about that differentiates them from Martin, I think they were chasing the spirit of what all of us were looking for in those early Martin guitars, that powerful, rich, deep kind of sound, you know.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, uh just you know, I guess a little light um shout out to the Collings team and everything, too, because I really enjoy um everything that they they do.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't played a bad one.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um well and and uh to clarify, you know, obviously we're not sponsored by any of these companies, uh, you know, Taylor or uh Collings, but the the absolute first company to come to us with one dollar gets our undivided support.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: We will play exclusively their guitars, doesn't matter what it is.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: We'll play those those like fiberglass guitars with the speaker built into it.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's all we're gonna play if they give us 10 bucks an episode.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, keep thinking brands for the Skimu sponsorships, and just so we could have you know, yeah, yeah.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Alibaba, maybe, yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, definitely.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, we bring up Kenny Smith, and that's like if you're a guitar nerd, he I mean, talk about uh a huge, you know, bunch of knowledge about the history of these guitars.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you check out Kenny Smith's um YouTube channel, also you can tell he's obsessed because he's got so many great videos interviewing people with great guitars and playing these different guitars.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he's he truly is like one of those people he loves guitars, it's not just uh the the specs, you know, just because it he he he really is kind of fascinated by the history of it all and what they look like and what they sound like.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and he sounds great on all of them, but so he's he's got all these Martins that he he sounds great on.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's um a bunch of Gibson guitars that he will will kind of show off.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds great, and even these older Washburn guitars I always find the most fascinating.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which I don't I don't only know because he will play them.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I mean I'm I'm curious to know what you know about them because I don't know that much, but what I find great is you know, if Kenny and Manton Smith, who will tour as a whole band or as a duo, I feel like I've seen multiple times where they're playing matching guitars or or at least the same brand or the same, and so it'll be they both have Martins or they both have Gibson's or they both have Washburns, and it's like that's I there's something kind of cool about that that they it looks cool on stage, and then it's also like okay, yeah, I could see how the sound of them would then blend in a in a pleasing way if you like have these two matching guitars, um, which I always found kind of fascinating, but it's cool.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's kind of like I like the idea of kind of accessorizing your band with like you're not gonna dress up necessarily, but we're both gonna have you know these like banner guitars or or or whatever.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it is man, yeah.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do you do you know much about the Washburn thing?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just from what I've um talked with Kenny personally.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um Kenny, I have been so lucky to get to know him over the last like I guess 20 years of my life.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like he used to play at the the Musicians Against Childhood Cancer Festival.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: That was a big, kind of like our big home festival in central Ohio.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um the and and we would just run into each other, especially after I started touring and stuff like that.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there was it was at the Mac that he was talking about these Washburn guitars.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that must have been four or five years ago.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are a couple different models, but I think the one that he um uh likes to to look for or collect is the Washburn 5246 solo guitar.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the the one.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was just looking these up online.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're these really like kind of weird-shaped guitars, you know, um almost like a cross between like a J35 and like an LG2 or something like that.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you guys are yeah, so it's like like the the bouts are maybe like even in width, but it's got kind of like a slope shoulder deal to it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know anything about the bracing on these guitars or anything like that, but I've played one, and what I do know is that they sound amazing.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those things, yeah.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you wanted a vintage, like like golden era pre-war style guitar that didn't cost you$80,000, like these washburns, I think, is is what at least this was kind of like Kenny's angle.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: These washburns are a really good angle to go because you get a vintage guitar, something that was constructed out of like great materials by a master grade luthier.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um because Washburn, I know a lot of people see that as like a budget brand now, but that's one of the oldest acoustic instrument brands in America.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they used to make, you know, like they were like Lion and Healy or Gibson or any of those guys, where they were just making a bunch of different guitars under a bunch of different brand names, selling them in catalogs, like they were one of the best in the country.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you look at these guitars and listen to them, um you'd be surprised.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of yeah, you're like, oh god, that's like the best sounding washburn I've ever heard ever.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so fascinating.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, Kenny's obsessed with them.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh his main guitar is a 1935 D18, so that's kind of what he plays.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: Amanda has a 50s D18 that she'll rock, and then they both have Collins guitars that they play.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because Kenny Kenny used to work at Collings.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you Oh, I had no idea.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, that Kenny's an amazing luthier.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think a lot of people realize that about Kenny Smith either.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, no.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's the one that did the repairs on his own D18.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure he did the neck reset on his 35.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Could you imagine that?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: So Kenny does it.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of the dream, though.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's kind of the dream to like actually know how to do what you want, not to I mean, uh God, to credit to all Luthiers out there who can do everything that I can't do.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: But what a it's just a challenge to try to describe what you want to someone, and and that's a special connection you have to build with someone if you have kind of a irreplaceable instrument, you know, and you you want them to take certain steps, and and uh I've had it both ways.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's gone great.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's said, Oh, I'm not bringing back to this person.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: It happens, you know.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is kind of the dream to be able to do it yourself, I guess.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Kenny's uh it's funny because he actually talking about this like education of like guitars and in eras of Martins and types of guitars, he knew that I had a 49 D18.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: I showed up to a lesson with it one time.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had asked him to give me a lesson at a festival, and he was like, Oh, what you got there?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: What year's that?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he was real curious.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And as I was walking away, he was like, You need to the next time it's into the shop, you need to have them uh, you know, pop that neck off and reset it a little bit for you.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, like what's what's up?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because it had already had a neck reset.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, 49.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: The the jigs for the neck sets were off by like a sixteenth of an inch.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the the neck is a little too far that way, and it like frets wrong.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you know, I've man, it's always played out of tune.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: I never knew, you know, like why?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: So he knows all that stuff, you know what I mean?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like, oh, 49, you gotta watch out for that year, you know, because it's yeah, yeah.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so fascinating.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's stuff like that is cool.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's a version of all this stuff that is like I've never been that kind of gear person that knows all the trivia, right?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh just because I'm I'm I guess I'm not that curious about just the trivia for this for the sake of it, right?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not into cars, I'm not into trains, I'm not into whatever, um, outside of the use that I get from certain things.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's certain things I'm obsessed with because I am really interested in in using them, whatever it is.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like like what Kenny's describing is like maybe a good reason to for me to lean deeper into that gear thing because the way he's describing it is like this will affect your experience playing it.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, not that there's anything wrong with with the hobby of of knowing the trivia about stuff, but it's like I think I've I've shied away sometimes because I'm like, no, no, no, that doesn't matter.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna work on playing, but knowing that stuff could be so useful just to get the instrument to agree with you, you know, or or be the right one, you know.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny to hear you say that because I think I have, especially at these festivals, I've seen Kenny, you know, when Kenny Smith is at a bluegrass festival, there, you know, the like a little gaggle of guitar gear heads will will eventually form around him and there'll be a conversation like what we're talking about.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I have noticed this when Kenny is talking about this stuff, it's never to impress anyone.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I feel like a lot of people get in these gear conversations and they just start throwing out factoids to like to do the one-up kind of thing.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you look at Kenny, and he is just like genuinely interested in the knowledge for the sake that that you just described.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's a guy who, if you even think about how he plays the guitar or describe his style, he's very like um, he's got a really light touch, his right hand is extremely graceful and beautiful and all this kind of stuff.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, meaning he's a thoughtful musician, right?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's he's everything he does is very curated, and I think the way that he thinks about guitars is the same way.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: How can I get this instrument into a place where it's going to allow my expression to kind of fully voice itself or whatever, as opposed to you know, just having a factoid that he can one up the next guy with or something.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he can tell he can one up all of us, you know what I mean?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: But sure, sure.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it never goes to that place in those conversations.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there and there's like kind of an implied patience there because for playing and for getting your instrument the right way, like you can't.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of this work that happens on these instruments that like doesn't happen in a day.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you can do it yourself, some of this type stuff takes days or weeks or months.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you're not the one doing it, it takes even longer.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: You might have to say, like, okay, this is worth the wait to get it right.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same thing with the way Kenny plays.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've heard the way he's talked about the amount of pressure he puts on his left hand is just enough to get the note out.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he doesn't want to press too hard, and then he doesn't want to squeeze the pick too hard.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: All this stuff that if you just pick up the instrument and you just like kind of go for it, sometimes you're gonna muscle your way through it in a way that isn't necessarily what you're going for, and to to have it be as kind of delicate as the way Kenny plays, which is not to say it doesn't sound aggressive or loud or have attitude because it has all those things, but but he does it in such a um, you know, it's kind of a tightrope, I assume, to be walked there in terms of of light touch and big sound.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to be really committed to that, and you then you have to be patient and say, like, that means it might take longer to do this thing, to play this thing, to make it sound the way I want it to, because I want it to sound right, rather than kind of taking a shortcut and playing the thing I'm playing get the note sound, but it's not ideal.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like it's it's kind of his whole um like ideology as a musician is is taking the time to get it right, you know.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and I would say, you know, if if we want to like how does that relate to the gear conversation that we've been having this whole episode?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: In my mind, the way that that relates, um Kenny has taken the time and the care in his own playing to actually be able to appreciate all of the pedantic minutia that we've talked about up to this point.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: Kenny has thought about his hand pressure on the strings so much, thought about just his personal technique on whatever guitar was in his hands, that the next time he had a different guitar in his hands, he could maybe appreciate the the tonal differences or the subtleties or the nuances of a forward-shifted scallop brace pattern versus a rear-shifted pattern, you know what I mean, and and actually hear that in his hands.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think most of us are like into the buzzwords and don't actually hear what we're being told is different about this guitar.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: But like if you do take the time and you do it the quote unquote right way, you know what I mean, of just like really focusing on the music, the tone, the feel, the pressure, all of that stuff, it's it's almost like until you reach that point, go ahead and just buy whatever guitar kind of like hits your fancy now at the time because you're not gonna even have the perceptive capabilities to see the difference between that bourgeois, you know, um D model versus the the 37 D18, you know?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, and you can kind of get in a weird space where you might have an idea, this is a better guitar, you know, and so I'll buy this, or I'll whatever.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then you might not like it as much as this seemingly lesser guitar, kind of not because a true preference, but because you don't necessarily know what you're listening for.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or I know for myself, especially with picks lately, I've been trying a bunch of different picks because my right hand technique has been kind of in flux, or I'm getting more confident with certain things.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: And as that changes, a pick that I used to use for one reason, it turns out that's actually not the best pick for me.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: I like something else because now I've kind of developed my right hand to be able to wield this pick a little better, whatever it is, right?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, um, and so the thing that was easier before, now it's harder to use that easier pick because my you know, whatever you know, things change like that.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Same with hearing this stuff is like depending on how you play, you might pick up that, you know, pre-war D18 and really not get what you mean to get out of it.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not because you're playing wrong per se, but you you might not have developed kind of like if you're trying to get that sound, right?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you're trying to play like Kenny Smith, but you don't have any of that kind of technique, then playing his guitars uh might not actually go that great for you, and it might turn you off to that sort of thing.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: So like you really have to, yeah, you have to kind of like stick with something for a while and and and and try some different things.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and yeah, it takes God, it takes such a long time to to do that, but it's it's you know, it's the classic thing of like, yeah, well, that's gonna take my whole life.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, pretty much, you know, what else is it?
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's taken all of mine up to this point.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like, you know, see kind of because especially, yeah, like don't stop again.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking to myself here, but like don't stop trying to finish this.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, stop trying to finish your ex you know exploration of the guitar, stop trying to finish end practicing.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: You don't you actually don't want those things to end.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: So dude, if if those things uh if those things are finished, then you're probably not in such a great spot, you know.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, right.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're 16.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, I think um just requires a little bit of reset.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I have this happen all the time where it's like anytime it gets frustrating or confusing, or you know, I'm not liking the sound that I'm getting, whatever it is, it's like there is this feeling like, oh, can this just be over?
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just have a guitar that sounds good?
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: My right hand is great, that I have the right pick, blah blah all this stuff, and I don't play, you know.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just just can I can I just have it all?
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, that doesn't exist in that way, you know, they're not things you can pluck off the shelf.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's not so much that I'm doing the wrong thing, it's like I'm kind of searching for the at that point, I'm searching for the wrong thing, you know.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um exactly.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than like being being open to the experience of this guitar sounds this way when I play it this way, and and you know, so yeah.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love the journey aspect of what you described, and maybe that's a you know, good good thing to leave everyone with.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: That like I honestly I found more pleasure in my playing career because I I I was a horse trader for a while.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: My dad loved to trade cars when I was a kid, and I think I got his knack for like that kind of stuff, you know.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've gone through what this is probably like my 20th flat top acoustic guitar or something like that, you know.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I was I was constantly seeking something that I never found when I was digging through those guitars, and it's only been in the last couple years where I just stopped thinking about gear and and almost just tried to be like happy with whatever was in front of me that like the real stuff started to happen.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my ears were able to grow, I was able to play a lot of the stuff that I heard in my head.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I could hear the nuances between certain players playing and stuff like that.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like like you were saying, I was focused on the wrong stuff for a while.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've been spending all this time playing guitar for for you know better part of half a year.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh before that, playing a lot more banjo and spending a lot of time being like, oh, are these picks right?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is this do I need a different tone ring in this banjo?
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need different strings?
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I just need a different banjo.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: I bought and sold a bunch of these, you know, pre-work Gibson conversions.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, ah, I just gotta find the right one.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, stopped playing banjo for a little while because I was playing so much guitar.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and when I do play, I'll play a gig here and there or whatever it is.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: The banjo sounds great.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: The picks are comfortable and I'm playing good stuff, everything is great.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, actually, turns out it's fine.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the secret is is you know, uh stop playing your favorite instrument and then uh it everything will go well.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: But no, it's yeah, it's worth it's worth zooming out a little bit, looking at the big picture rather than the minutiae sometimes.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think if you find yourself there, then you know, just maybe, maybe meditation is the thing to start looking at and as opposed to the you know the callings or bourgeois website.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely, definitely.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's great.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Hayes, uh, now that we've solved all the uh gear problems of the world when it comes to the acoustic guitar, where can folks find you if they uh need more haze in their life?
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, well, if you are one of those sad people that that decides you needs that, you can find me at uh haze griffin.club.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's my guitar club website.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to study some music with me, or if you just want to jam along and uh hear some free lessons and podcasts like this, you can find me at youtube.com forward slash hayegriff.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: What about you, Eli?
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: As always, you can find me on YouTube, Eli Gilbert Guitar, where I'm kind of documenting my journey figuring out how to how to flat pick.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and for all other guitar questions you have, I'll direct you back to Hayes anyway.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: So feel free to ask me whatever you like, and I'll I'll let you know what I think Hayes would say, or or I'll tell you to ask him.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, in any case, that's gonna do it for this episode of the flat picking podcast.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, folks.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: Catch you later.