Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Maternal Mental Health | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 1 Episode 12

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Maternal Mental Health | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 1 Episode 12 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut podcast, where Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, show up weekly to jump in to those conversations that we know have to be happening about motherhood.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: We are coming fully to you, uncut, with our own stories and challenges and successes in motherhood, as well as bringing to you some data and research and clinical anecdotes and all kinds of stuff so that we can all help each other get unstuck.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: We are not meant to mother alone.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: So pull up a chair.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Come join us in these conversations.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's sponsor time.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: I know you've heard it here before, but that's because the one clock is so awesome.
• 0:52
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• 0:56
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• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Did you know that the first 30 minutes of your day will set you up for the rest of the day?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Literally, if you're waking up to some sort of a jarring alarm and your nervous system goes into fight and flight within the first few moments of being awake, you will be paying for that for the rest of your day.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: If you wake up to the one clock, which was designed using sleep and wake science, you're gonna wake up in the manner where your nervous system adjusts in a slow, steady way that keeps you calm and grounded from the get-go.
• 1:32
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• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: O-N-E-C-L-O-C-K dot-co-wake up better with the alarm clock.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Start taking better care of yourself first thing in the morning.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: You guys, I also am just so excited about this free virtual workshop that I have coming up on October 22nd from 10 till noon Mountain Standard Time.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, I did say free, free workshop.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: We are gonna set you up with all kinds of easy and accessible tools and strategies to start feeling really great.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: I want you to leave this workshop feeling like you have the tools and the strategies and the pathway to real health and wellness, both physically as well as mentally.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: I want you to be able to be the kind of mom you want to be to your kids, for your kids.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: And this workshop is gonna set you up for that.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: So come join me October 22nd, 10 till noon.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: If you can't make it live, sign up anyway, and we will send you the recording.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Go on over to my website, katKripke.com.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: I really hope I see you there.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: You will not regret it.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: We are actually gonna all leave that workshop feeling more alive and excited and joyful and ready to thrive.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: So come on over.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: All right, you guys.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Enjoy the show.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: This is a good one.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Deb.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Kate.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's Sunday morning.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're podcasting.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: We're podcasting.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: We're drinking coffee here.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know it feels like a beautiful fall day in Boulder.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: Although it's funny, our listeners can't, if if people aren't seeing us, they they can't see us.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: But we just there's a marathon happening outside this window.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: We just saw like a ton of bikers pass by.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a funny little town.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's a little there's a lot of action.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: There is.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is our last episode of our season.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_04: Our first season.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_04: This is the last episode.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: It has been a joy to have conversations with you.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Really.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've loved every minute of it.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it so fun?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, sometimes I'm like, I can't believe that this is part of our job.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what I actually love is all those conversations on a hike or drinking wine or at the pool, and we're like, oh, this should be a podcast.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: And we just made it happen.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: We made it happen.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: We invited all these lovely people in.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, people, for listening and for contributing your thoughts and side texts we've gotten and emails.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just been a really fun community builder.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: And really nice to know that all these amazing mothers are mothering with us, and vice versa.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we are not doing it alone.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I'm gonna call out a mother in the community named Erin Ross.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Erin.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: That made this really amazing sticker that says Motherhood, the shortest and steepest path to enlightenment.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: She made it so long ago.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: She now has a kid in college and one in like the middle of high school.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I she just recently gave it to me, and I'm giving it to you right now to put on your coffee mug.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I just think, you know, it's just a really good reminder that we are on a steep journey.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: The shortest and steepest path to enlightenment.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know what?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: You and I talk about this all the time.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Our children teach us how to be better humans.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I certainly have zero, I know you do too, but zero judgment of anyone who decides to not have children, right?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's pl so much room for that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, I actually think recently you and I were talking about this, like we're all a mother of something.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: I might be a mother of two humans, but people are mothers of plants and animals and communities and businesses and and their inner children.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Their inner children for mothering that.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: So shout out to all of those motherhood opportunities, the shortest and steepest path to enlightenment.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: I love this.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Erin, love you.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna put this right here in front of us so we can look at it while we're talking.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: Perfect.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the other thing that I just have loved about podcasting with you is, and I say this like so not because we're on a podcast, like every time we start our sessions, we we have like our own little therapy sessions.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, we sure do.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And like whichever one of us is having a messy human moment, like we just have this really cool way of helping each other move through it.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a shout out to remember to like trust in yourself, trust in your people, the social nervous system, like how much we need connection.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: We just need it.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: We need connection humans that are made for it.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's our last one, and we have been speaking about so many topics that are all in this huge umbrella of mental wellness.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're actually gonna bring it all together and talk about really what what is this all about?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the theme of today is maternal mental wellness.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and mental mental health health.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maternal mental health.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right, which when I think about those two terms, they're a little different.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: They are, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: Wellness is to me, feel I don't know, I'm curious what you would say about this, but to me, the idea of mental wellness feels like sustaining a sense of wellness.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: Mental health to me is really like, ah, there is actually a difference between mental illness, like depression and anxiety, and mental health.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean by that?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to go deeper.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think that first I think it's really worth saying out loud, you and I were just talking about this, that this pandemic, the last two plus, I keep saying three years.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Has it been three years?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because in my mind it's been three years.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, yeah, whatever.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: This last handful of freaking crazy ass years, right?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Has really created in its wake a mental health crisis, right?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: And we know this intellectually, but I want us to sort of land here for just a moment because we know that there has been just really disastrous impact in the mental health of kids, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: With the closing of schools and the challenge, you know, our kids, as we've talked about this whole podcast, are meant to be in connection with other people to figure out who they are.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so, do you want to say something about that?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: So this huge, you know, child mental health crisis, but we also know, been written about a ton, that mothers have beared the burden of this pandemic in families.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a huge generalization, but I'm gonna go with it because that really is what we now know after, you know, talking to and doing research on and looking at family systems and how really there's this wake of crisis, right?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, about 50% of mothers right now are reporting depression and anxiety.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And are you saying depression and anxiety in kind of a typical I'm having overwhelmed feelings and I'm feeling sad or more clinical?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: No, clinical.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: So can you tell the difference?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: So so we know, and hopefully our listeners know from this podcast, that difficult emotions are part of being human.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: If life is overwhelming, we expect to feel we need to expect to feel overwhelmed.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: If something sad happens, we get to expect to feel sad.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and in typical life, we bounce back.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: They move through us, those emotions move through us.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: And just to reframe, we'll probably get back to this later in this podcast, but just to be reframe, they move through us when we are healthy enough and capable and willing and and um filled up enough to do what we need to do to allow them to move through us, right?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: When we try And having support.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: And have support, which is part of that, yeah, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, you know, maybe I'll just this is a little clinical, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: My my work with mothers, my maternal mental health and wellness work with mothers is really founded on this idea that if mothers are not well enough supported biologically, that's physical body health.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, psychologically, that's beliefs, thoughts, feelings, and socially, that's connections.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: I've recent recently asked spirit spirituality spiritually because of all that Lisa Miller's work.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: So if mothers are not well enough supported biologically, psychologically, socially, and spiritually, they will develop symptoms of depression and anxiety.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's not they might.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: They will.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: And when I think about maternal mental health, I'm really thinking within that context as sort of a um a psychological definition, which is is someone feeling those symptoms more times than not for at least two weeks.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's a really good scale.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: And the other thing to think about is are those symptoms, and maybe we'll just run off some symptoms together in a moment so people know what we're talking about.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, are they getting in the way of that mom's ability to find joy and happiness and pleasure in her life and to do the things in her life that she wants to and needs to?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: And we know that when symptoms of depression and anxiety get big enough, we can't see past them.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: We can't feel past them.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: They take up so much space.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: They take up space in our brains and our thoughts, and they take up spaces in our physiology, right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I want to talk about today.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yes.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other piece is we want to help our listeners understand to recognize the difference when we're talking about basic feelings that all humans have and this clinical kind of um shift where we it actually deserves and needs more attention, and ways to uh prevent.
• 11:27
  unknown: Absolutely.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that has really been what all of our episodes have led us up to today.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's ways to understand oneself, understand your capacity, and take some ownership in how to prevent.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to what you were saying before about identifying symptoms.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, if we, those of us in the field of psychology and psychotherapy, really from a very, very, very clinical place, we are looking at something called the diagnostic manual, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: There's a DSM, a diagnostic manual of symptoms for depression and anxiety.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: I don't particularly refer to that very much in my work, but I think it's worth just noting that there is actually diagnostic criteria for clinical depression and anxiety.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I think some of the symptoms that that we look for, those of us who are supporting moms, are um are tearfulness, but tearfulness that really that's sort of that ongoing feeling like I can't stop crying.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: Not just tearfulness because I'm having a moment of feeling sad.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of tearfulness where I the what I hear often is I I feel like I'm crying for no reason.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Now you and I both know there's there's always a reason, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: But there's that sense, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: Difficulty making decisions.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: That thing that happens where it's like I just can't take a step in a direction because I I get frozen when I'm making decisions, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Irritability, sometimes rage actually shows up in motherhood a lot.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: So it's sort of that not just irritability.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god, my kids are making me feel crazy.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: You and I have talked about this on the podcast, but irritability, like I feel it in my body all the time.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm losing my patience, I'm snapping, and then of course, there's that cycle because now I feel guilty about it.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, now I'm going to a place of shame.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: And now I'm like, it just builds and builds and builds.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: There's worry that doesn't go away with reassurance.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: This is a big one.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: That is a big one.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think there's a difference between worry and anxiety.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: How would you describe the difference?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to look at worry in the same world of stress, and that we have these normal stressors that are external, and they actually are they're just these external impacts on our life.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And they're specific.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: It might be, you know, it I don't need to get into detail, but it's just specific external things.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then when it kind of shifts into anxiety, it's a deep reaction to the worry that takes over this level of dread.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually becomes a brain game.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a personality flaw.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing about that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's that our brain literally goes into a place of feeling unsafe in the world.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when we feel unsafe, we lose perspective and our prefrontal cortex goes to sleep.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that is kind of where the shift happens.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's so true.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think of worry as a human experience that I can have while I'm also quite grounded.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: But anxiety really is that fight, flight, or freeze response that our brain goes into.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's either a real or perceived threat.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: And to your point, anxiety is spinny.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: Keeps us up at night.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's by the way, in the data in especially perinatal pregnancy and postpartum mental health, but certainly all maternal mental health.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: That maternal anxiety is actually more prevalent than maternal depression.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that is probably for our listeners something that's more identifiable than that deep depression, which just to get back to symptoms, is like I have no energy.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to do anything.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm finding no pleasure in the things I usually find pleasure in.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: The things that once took me out of it are not working anymore.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: So are there any other symptoms you would?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's insomnia is a big symptom of anxiety.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, sleep.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think we covered I think we covered the big ones.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so back to your question, what it what are we talking about with maternal mental health?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's really that sometimes a fine line, and it requires a lot of reflection and self-awareness to know what's happening for us.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes we don't want to acknowledge it to people, but it's that line between having moments of feeling discomfort, to feeling that kind of deep discomfort we're talking about most of the time.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I'll say it again: what we want to be talking about today is that kind of depression or anxiety or some of those symptoms that we just talked about that literally get in our way of showing up in the world we want to and need to.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because they take up so much space.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: They and they take over our capacity to connect.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And this is actually where the where our worlds really overlap is that what we know is part of being a mother is how we show up for our kids.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the hard thing to say that is if we as mothers are not taking care of ourselves and not having awareness and doing the preventative work and seeking support in any way, we are actually doing a great disservice to our kids.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because what our kids need more than anything is to feel seen by us, is to feel like they have a safe place to land.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: It is about knowing that we as moms are their inner circle.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: We are where they can have get their accolades, we are where they fall apart.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, if we can't show up and give them even some of that, then our kids are feeling pretty isolated in the world right now.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about secure attachment.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: And early, in order to be a securely attached adult and parent with our children, we need to be that with ourselves first.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I have something to say about secure attachment, that when we often talk about secure attachment in the early months of infancy, Dan Siegel talks about the four S's.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about safety, soothing, security, and being seen.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that those are the things that actually help an infant into babyhood knowing that they are safe in the world.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: But what's fascinating is that when our kids get into adolescence, they need those same exact four S's.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is actually what I love to help parents working with adolescents is how do we be healthy attachment parents in adolescence without a fear of being helicopter parents?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's kind of this fine line of overbearing and and which is just an overused term helicopter, but it's really about healthy attachment now.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: And back to back to maternal mental health, I think we're more likely to be a quote unquote helicopter parent if we're struggling with anxiety.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: Ah, because the worry's big.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: So let's let's break this down a little bit, Deb, and you know, we're not gonna go into postpartum mood disorders specifically today.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I do want to Can you touch on it?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: I wanna bring us back just to because this overarching term maternal mental health, I really want our listeners to understand where this often begins.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think we have folks who might be struggling with depression or anxiety when their kids are teenagers.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I see this in my office all the time, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: And when I start asking questions and I start digging a little deeper, those symptoms started right before or after birth, right?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, so really, by the way, perinatal, because we're gonna take it all back to start, is really that period between conception through that first 12 months postpartum, right?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: And for many of us, for many mothers, that's where these deeper symptoms of anxiety and depression begin to bubble up because it's the first time in our lives that we have needed to have this sense of I am responsible for someone other than myself.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that's freaking terrifying, especially if we had conflicting relationships with our own parents and we didn't feel supported and cared for and held by them.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Can I just mention one thing?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: We do this almost every podcast, but I want to mention this again.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: Today we are not gonna touch on bereavement and we're not gonna touch on unresolved trauma.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we're gonna both very important topics, but we're gonna tuck those away.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, but sometimes those early symptoms of like fear and anxiety and deep despair really stem from we can't think of ourselves as a mother without remembering how we were mothered.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a fair amount of trauma in there, bigger T trauma for all of us.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: One thing we know is that whenever we're scared in the parenting realm, we rely on what we know.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that is so often when we might hear the words of our own mother coming out of us, and we're like, what just happened?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, don't we?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who was that?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's like that's a thing to really remember is when we're scared, we fall back or rely on what we know in our bodies.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, to your point, when there is, and there almost always is, some unresolved feelings around how we were mothered, that is going to play out.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Every time.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: Even if we've done a buttload of therapy, it's gonna come back in a different way.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's right, right?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: So, um, so if I go back to this definition or this way I talk about postpartum health in my and here at the postpartum wellness centers, if mothers are not well enough supported biologically, psychologically, socially, and spiritually, they will struggle with symptoms of depression or anxiety.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we know that one in five moms, which by the way is only counting those folks that raise their hands, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Are going to struggle with depression or anxiety somewhere in that first year.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: One in five.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: But 20%.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: We believe it's higher than that because again, so many moms are too, we feel shame around it.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think that is the shame?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, unfortunately, I think it's because of all the messaging we get, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you're oh my god, he must be so happy.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: You're having a b oh you have oh, are you having the best time with your new baby?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: These things that we get where we're like, yeah, there are moments of amazingness.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: There are also so many moments of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Deep struggle.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: Total struggle.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think let's let's normalize pause and normalize.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: New motherhood is freaking hard.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so uncomfortable.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: And we're gonna feel plenty of moments of anxiety and uncertainty and loneliness and sadness and disappointment, anger, irritation, name it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna have so many moments of that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that those moments don't mean that there's a problem like that needs to be treated or supported.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean supported always, but treated, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, absolutely.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: Keep going.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that that's part of the difference between what's normal and what requires deeper support.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is it normal to feel everything as a new mom.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And going back to the shame piece, I just think that there is still so much messaging that having big feelings, especially for women, is not okay.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_04: I agree.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just so it's actually like deep, deep systemic sexism on some level.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: That we women we're emotional roller coasters and all these terrible, you know, there's this terrible thing, but we actually as humans have seasons and we cycle and with moods always.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I just really want to bring that normalcy to everyone in the world that we have we are big, big feelers.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hallelujah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: We love it, and it's good.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: So you know who else are big feelers?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Our babies.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so this is where maternal mental health begins.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because if we are one of those many, many, many, many, many women who are have been taught to be uncomfortable with our own big feelings, how the heck are we gonna be comfortable with our baby's big feelings?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: So you know how we hear in early motherhood people say, babies cry, babies cry, it's normal.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we're like, okay, but I don't know how to manage that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: You and I in this moment are reminding people, we have big feelings.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's normal, but we don't always know how to manage that.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so my very strong bias, which will not surprise anybody, is that all mothers should have mental health support after having a baby.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: All parents should.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: I shouldn't exclude fathers and because I actually believe they should.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: But for the point of this podcast, all mothers should, because if we don't learn how to really tolerate all those things we've talked about in this podcast, sit, make room for those emotions, give ourselves self-compassion and validation, let those feelings move through us.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: If we don't know how to do that, all that's going to get projected onto our babies.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's right.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it's important to note, and this is really hard to hear for many of us too, is that until about age three, but sometimes it's a little earlier, so let's say two to three, our nervous systems and our babies' nervous systems are totally interconnected because babies do not have the brain capacity to self-soothe until at least about age three.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: So they lean to their care providers to settle their nervous systems.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: So if we as mothers, if we have if we're not able to manage our own nervous systems, if we're not able to, you know, tend to ourselves in those ways that help us be emotionally and mentally well, we can't do that for our babies.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And let's actually touch on this for one minute around how we can identify that one's nervous system is regulated.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Such a great question, Deb.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: And let me just say one thing, and then we can bounce ideas off of here is that you asked in the beginning of this podcast, what does that mean, mental health and wellness?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I want to say again that when we are in a state of mental health, it's actually speaking to exactly what this question is.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: We are able to regulate our own nervous systems.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: Mental health does not mean that we feel good all the time.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Mental health means that we're willing to not feel good and we're willing to get curious about those experiences of emotional discomfort and learn from them because they're wise.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then we're able to tend to ourselves so that we can come back to a state of groundedness.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: When our brains aren't working effectively, we'll talk about why in a few minutes, we can't do that.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: So, how how do you what does regulating nervous system look like to you?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I often think I have a lot of awareness that when I am dysregulated, my world gets really narrow.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually I learned this somewhere along the way.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is not my metaphor or experiment experiment, but taking a piece of paper and rolling it up into like a tube and looking through, that's when I'm feeling dysregulated, that's how I see the world.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually how our kids often see the world when they're feeling overwhelmed.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always come into physic the my physiological response.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I'm breathing steadily, when my heart rate is settled and it is actually going less than a hundred beats in a minute, those are my big indicators that my physical body has calmed down, which gives a message to my brain that I'm not in danger.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then my brain opens up, and then I can see I have so much, it's really about perspective for me.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's one of my big indicators.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: And when we get stuck to your point in a place of fight, flight, or freeze, which can happen when we're actually struggling with clinical levels of anxiety, we have a really hard time doing that.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: So let's move on from this postpartum period for a moment.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I do just want to name that piece that I think if we don't, if we don't access support and care at this earliest stage of mothering, those habits that we develop around feeling really badly and not knowing how to get out of that, those relationships that we begin to form with our children and our partners, they grow and grow and grow.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: And we can find ourselves 10 years into motherhood still struggling.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't want that for our moms.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: I can I say one other thing actually before we go on.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the things that we talk about that I want to talk about with respect to mental health is that mental health is really learning that balance between brain health and external stress, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: So when our brain health is depleted, right, if we're not getting enough sleep, if we're not eating well, if we're not breathing effectively, if we're not drinking enough water, right, all of those things that impact if we've just had a baby and our hormones shift that affect brain chemistry, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: If those shifts and we aren't managing external stress, that gap between our resilience to stress and our stress is too big.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where symptoms show up.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: So starting in the earliest stages of motherhood and then moving on, we want to learn how to both take care of our brains, get enough sleep, drink enough water, breathe effectively, eat the right kind of foods, move our bodies, all those things that we've talked about on this podcast, right?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: And manage external stress.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: Work with our thoughts, set boundaries in our relationships.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um get external support by a therapist or a coach if we need it, right?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: All you know, um learn how to ask for and receive help, which is a big one.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: We need to do both of those things in order to get back to some sort of resemblance of harmony between those two things, right?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: And we do this all the time in our life, even if we're not clinically depressed or anxious, right?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like this happened for, you know, this is happens for us all the time, right?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm if I it's the end of a long day and I've made plans to meet you and I'm like, hey, Deb, babe, I can't meet today.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I have to take that external stress off my plate.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Where can I have a little slack in my life?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Or if I'm like so cranky when we sit down to podcast at three o'clock and we're both like, oh my God, we never eat today.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: We gotta eat something, right?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: So we're constantly balancing this.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think clinical levels of depression and anxiety anywhere in motherhood happen when we're not meeting our brain's needs for health.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and we have too much external stress on our plate.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I'm hearing you say really clearly is that we actually have so much more power to take care of ourselves than we think.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you're naming over and over, which I love, is these basic tools, these bite-sized ways of taking care of ourselves.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Food, water, sunshine, connection, pausing, curiosity.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: That is what this whole C season has been about.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the way you're saying it because it's actually really empowering for all of us to know that we can do this.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have the skills.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And when when you were saying before that, you know, these patterns, these habits develop at it when our babies are young, and then can suddenly they're 10 and 12 and we wake up and notice them.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be really clear that there is always room to change.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it does not mean that, you know, we and our children are screwed because of these deep old patterns.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this is actually the most beautiful thing about the brain.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: It grows, it changes, we can create new neural pathways all the time.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really want our listeners to understand that if this was your story from early on, that you are you have so much capacity to change now.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we're modeling for our children all the time.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: All the time.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say one other thing, really quick.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: The other word you said that really stood out for me is resiliency, and that is actually when I think of parenting, it is we are tr we are all we really want is to teach our kids that they're resilient.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because we never can control all these external stressors or the things that cause worry.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how do we as moms practice being resilient so that our kids can trust within themselves that they are resilient to be out in the world and tolerate annoying shit that happens?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that that point you just made, as mothers, I dare I say most of us, many of us, most of us, pour a ton of energy into the things that we can't control.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then we feel quote unquote out of control.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Because we are.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that we're talking about in this moment is really remembering there are only two things that any human can control: our own thoughts and our own choices.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: That is it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: We have influence on things, but not control.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: So when we go back to those things that our brains need to be mentally healthy, and there are actually seven specific things that research talks about, and I'll just name them here, a whole other podcast to dive in deeply, although I think we touched on this in one of the first podcasts is sleep, nutrition, exercise, hydration, water fluids, breath and mindfulness, social support.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: There's eight, play and nature.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: And those eight things, if we're tending to them, feed our brains.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I want to be really clear: breath and mindfulness can be starting your day with three deep breaths.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Nature can be walk past a tree and put your hand on its bark.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: So we don't, these do not have to be grandiose things, but our brains need these things to be mentally healthy.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: And again, if we're not, if we're depleted in those things, we are gonna experience symptoms of depression or anxiety.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: We just will.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I think really, while there is a very, very valid space for psychotherapy and medication, always, especially when symptoms get sort of beyond someone's capacity to manage them on their own, there are these things that we can do.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: And we start with those base, really, we're talking about self-love and self-compassion and tending to ourselves, tending to our brains.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: And what good modeling for our kids.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I took us off a little bit here, but um, let's let's maybe for the point of the the sort of finishing up this podcast today and really making it make sense to our listeners is revisiting some of the things that we've talked about in earlier episodes around that part of prevention and general support.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to put myself out there just for a moment as an example.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I, as we've talked about in this podcast, really struggled with anxiety for most of my life.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I had really severe panic attacks as a child, and and I was also raised by two parents who loved me deeply, but who had very, very significant untreated anxiety, both of them.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I believe in many ways that I inherited that.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Where I I wore their anxiety, it became mine, but I don't believe it was all mine, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and uh what uh oftentimes a child is looking at the parent to say, to is this a reason to panic?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when the parent is panicking back, then a child learns I am not safe.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Over and over.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so I have had years and years and years of psychotherapy.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: I've had years and years and years of taking antidepressant and anti-anxiety medication.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: By far, the thing that has helped me the most is learning to breathe and learn and having a meditation practice.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so I really want to make sure that folks are not hearing us say, of course, we're two psychotherapists, so that would be weird if we were saying that we didn't think there was a role for psychotherapy and medication, but there are these things, back to your point, that we can do on our own to help mitigate some of these big symptoms, right?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can I add a little tool that I've been using for years and I just think it's it's kind of a cool mantra?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: It actually comes from the AA world, and it's the serenity prayer.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: And some people can add God, some people can add no God word, but the basic gesture is this grant me the serenity to accept the things I change.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can change.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then you name actually out loud, what can I change in my world?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um the cur wait, what is it?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, hold on.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and so then I will say the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that list is usually quite small, like you were saying.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: I can change the way I tend to myself, I can change the way I treat my body, I can change the way I speak, and the wisdom to know the difference.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so good.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is so helpful for me to like identify what I can change and what I can't.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of power when that list is small of things you can change that you can put your energy into.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: So let's go through those things because we already talked about some of them, right?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: One thing that we can change, you just said, is how we treat ourselves.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that's sort of those eight things I just talked about.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_05: A lot.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing we can change is how we talk to ourselves, right?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: So our thoughts and our self-talk.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: We, I want to pause here for a moment because the power of negative thinking, we know how strong that is, right?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: If I wake up, if I wake up tomorrow and the first thing I say to myself, either consciously or unconsciously, and that's an important distinction, right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we don't even, we're so used to, we have these habits, we don't even hear ourselves saying them anymore.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: If the first thing I say to myself is, this day is gonna suck, or I can't do this, or I'm a terrible mom, my body is gonna feel awful.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: So we know the power of negative thoughts.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: We wanna also know the power of positive thoughts.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's really hard to find a positive thought.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: So one antidote around negative thinking is gratitude.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Most of us can actually find one thing we're grateful for.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so another wonderful tool is waking up, and the first thing you say and put hand on heart is something you're grateful for.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that might just be that you woke up, but there's always something.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: Then I think with the negative thoughts, and gosh, we've used this word countless times, is to be curious, right?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: So Byron Katie has this whole amazing sequence of questions around negative thoughts, which I love.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think you could just start with that, right?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Is it possible that this thought I'm having is not true?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we convince ourselves that we're right all the time.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: And what we're feeling and thinking, we had a whole podcast on judgment, yeah, right?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's just perspective, yeah, and opinion, yeah, and belief based on all our prior experiences.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so important that we question those negative thoughts because if we're walking around with a lot of negative thinking, we will feel depressed and anxious.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: One thing we know about thoughts, three things we know about thoughts, is that they're usually they're not actually facts, they are temporary and you can change them.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I love to empower people with that, those three steps of how do you work with your thoughts?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: I love also, so you know, we have this awareness piece we've talked about and the allowing, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like we talked about this when we were talking about um navigating our kids' um social relationships.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, listeners, if you haven't listened to these podcasts, go back and listen to them for reference.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: But we talked about how important it is for us to be able to name what's happening, to say name it, to tame it, those thoughts, and then to allow for the feelings, right?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: And often negative thinking that leads to depression and anxiety is a total resistance of what's happening.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, total resistance.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like a disloyalty to self.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're not allowing ourselves to feel the feelings, and this is again, I always bring it back to how we are tending and behaving and acting towards ourselves is exactly what's gonna show up in how we treat our children.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Over and over.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: Feelings, beliefs lead to thoughts, lead to feelings, and we make choices based on those feelings, and then our choices make up our lives, right?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we really look at that thought-feeling combination as motivators for what choice we're gonna make next, right?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we wanna really understand that thoughts may pop into our head.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: So we may not have control over that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Our brain's doing crazy shit all the time.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: But what we do with that thought will lead to how we feel.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and how we feel will motivate us, motivate us to make a certain choice.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that choice will cut all those choices make up our relationships with ourselves and our kids and the world around us.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, one of the things we talked about, sorry, about in our previous podcast was this huge one on spirituality.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that is another big tool around how do we start to believe that there is something bigger than us?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do we embrace in the insignificance in a good way of ourselves so that we see just how big and how much is out there that is not only out of our control, but it is also just bigger than us.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's some force, there's a connection to earth, there's a connection to something else that can give us strength that we can rely on.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: Depression and isolation or loneliness, disconnection are one in the same.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where we get to question that thought is it possible that I'm not alone?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I know so many of us humans, mothers, have this deep internal dialogue.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm all alone.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm all alone.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm doing this all by myself, I'm all alone.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that's one of those thoughts we want to question.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Is it possible that that's not true?
• 42:38
  unknown: Yes.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where we invite quote-unquote spirituality or interconnectedness or being part of something bigger than ourselves, however, you want to talk about it.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that is such a remedy to depression.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: Love that.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think the other thing, you know, so we talked about self-love and self-care as both a remedy and prevention.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about the role of kind of breath and mindfulness.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: We sort of tapped into that.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about working with negative thoughts.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: I also think just the the one really important one you mentioned as well in the beginning is the building on relationships, whether those with ourselves and others.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that goes back into this interconnectedness because when we feel isolated and alone, we don't feel good.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm wondering, Deb, if from your real deep dive into relationship building, right?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's such a big part of what you're offering to the world right now is how to build relationships in mothering.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have one or two tips or strategies to offer about relationship building with self and children?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: And again, this is a little repetitive because we've talked about this before, but as this culmination episode today, can you just offer a couple of nuggets on practices?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right, quote unquote, things that are within our control that we can do to build relationships.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think first, and this is redundant, but it has to start with how we tend to ourselves.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so to go back to your social connection is I just want everyone to have someone, an adult source where you can be messy with, where you can let it all hang out, where you can let that inner child come out and scream and hate the kid that's hurting your kid's feelings.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: And even though the logical adult mind knows that we're all clumsy and kids are clumsy, and but it's like to have an outlet to be almost irrational, yes, with knowing that there's a container and that once we tend to those emotions, then we can come back to show up with ourselves in an adult way and with how we connect to others.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: And for those of us who don't have that person in our lives, that is where therapists and coaches go.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely, that is so essential.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then we go into this place of understanding how we communicate, understanding how the person we want to connect with shows their love.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I love the idea of love languages and taking a little quiz with either yourself, your partner, your kids, helping them understand their love language so that people can really start to explore how to communicate and be with someone in a way that takes some of your own way and puts it aside in order to see someone else's way.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: That is what relationship is about.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how do I honor me and see you?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when someone feels really seen, they feel alive.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: It is like the end.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And to go deeper, when someone feels like someone knows them, that is actually what gives them resiliency.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: We are social creatures.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last little tip I'll give is quality time.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: We need to make time with other if we want to connect.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that does not have to be quantity, it can be moments of being present with someone, asking curious questions without being interrogating, sitting with someone and just being in space together, going on a walk with someone.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: These are all ways that we connect.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say that has to be a priority just the way an exercise class might be, or going to work, it is essential for connection.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: I love all those tips, and and I think they're so, so, so important and valuable.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I think one of the challenges in mothering, and maybe this goes back to just the way we are taught to be women in this world, is that we are really good at giving and focusing on other.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that's become so profoundly true, and I don't always use that word as significantly as I am in this moment, is that the deepest source of depression or anxiety is a disconnection with ourselves.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: So even if we're taking really good care of our kids or the people around us and we're not doing those same things for ourselves, we're going to feel depressed and anxious.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: And what I get worried about, truly worried about, is when we as mothers continue to disregard that and work harder and harder and harder to give all our kids and all the people around us what we need they need.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: And we keep disregarding our relationships with ourselves to the point of where we can no longer show up for those people outside of us the way we want to.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_03: And now we're not mothering well.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so I often say, Mom, do the hard work now so your kid doesn't have to do it later.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: You do the hard work now.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: And what do I mean by that?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean you learn how to reconnect with yourself, you learn how to have that deep, inter, unconditional relationship with yourself first.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: And the irony is that when we learn how to do that and do that deeply, all the other stuff is pretty easy.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: So when I look back at my mental health journey, all those years of therapy I did, all those years of medication I took, I'm not sure I was actually doing the deep work to connect with myself.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: And granted, how many times have I said this?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm clearly very proud that I'm about to turn 50, but I've said this so many times on the podcast.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: One of the reasons I think I feel so good now is because I've learned how to do that.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: But we don't always think that way as mothers, right?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I will just add that I had so many years of therapy as well.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't touched on that much in this podcast.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: I did not struggle with intense anxiety, but I did, I had a lot of unresolved traumas that I had to work through and and so much therapy of learning how to listen to my body.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I worked with a somatic provider for a long time that just helped me not pathologize my triggers and myself.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, so I think in order, I share this because what the heart of what I hear you saying is that we are human, we are messy, and we are all beautiful.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like truly, truly.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so, how do we start to embrace this deep humanness of being on this journey of life?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, every single one of us is going through something.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the we're much more alike than we're different.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the interconnectedness that we can rely on.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think outside support, to your point, is often really important as a first step, right?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: Because we don't know what we don't know.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: And having that outside perspective to help us figure out why.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I have these habitual thoughts?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I tend towards these ways of being in the world and thinking about myself this way?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's really useful.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then we need to open up practices to soften around those things.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then, quite frankly, Deb, we got to get out of our own fucking way.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's a way in which continuing to talk about the same things over and over and over don't actually move the needle the way we need and want to move the needle.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where I think many of these things we're talking about today fit in, right?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Is that at some point we just have to start doing things differently so that we begin to feel differently.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: And maternal depression and anxiety, 50%, as we started with today, that is a lot of mothers.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: So that is to say no one's alone.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: And we got to do something about it.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: Move the needle.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: Move the needle.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because we are modeling something to our kids.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: And our job is to provide the kind of support, consistent, steady, good enough support, so that our kids have space to be healthy and happy and well and not take on the burden of our shit.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing yourself so vulnerably and your wisdom.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm back at you.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to put in a plug for a couple of things here, okay?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because these, I think what we're saying in this last episode today is really that it is our job as mothers to start to ask our own questions, tend to ourselves, figure out where we're stuck and where we need support.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: We have, I have this workshop coming up.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, it's a free walk workshop, October 22nd, that really is a kickstart in a lot of these things that we're talking about.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's virtual, and if people sign up and can't be there, uh, we will send you the recording.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: But it's really beginning to focus on sort of what is within our control.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: What's our where is our agency live?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: By the way, that word agency is really in order for mental health, we have to feel like we have agency, which is like control in our lives.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's choice, choice.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so this workshop is really meant to start that process or get you farther along that process.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I I think, you know, we have, as you mentioned, this really deep interconnectedness in our work where in order to, you know, show up the way we want to in our relationships with our teens, we need to sh to really take care of our own mental health first.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so I really want people to jump onto your website and see what workshops you have coming up.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: Anything you want to add about that?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I thank you.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: I um I just recently started doing these one-offs where it's just an anxiety workshop for moms to help identify when our girls are struggling.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, I focus on mothers and daughters, um, but the work is applicable to all.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that, and and in order to do that, we have to understand our own anxiety, our own bodies, but it's really a step-by-step process of how to support our girls, and it's been really fun.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so check out my website, and then the other thing that is up and running are my four-week workshops on how to parent in different ways.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's one for moms of girls from age nine to 11, and then one's of one for moms of girls of middle school age, and they're all just getting started.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: And November workshops just opened, and then in January, I have a mother plus daughter together all-day workshop where you get to practice and use your tools and learn how to be with your daughter in a different way, and they're really safe and they offer lots of tools and skill building and a really great way to connect.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: And many of those are local.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm telling you, folks, Boulder, great place to come from mother-daughter trips.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, beautiful.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I also have virtual ones starting in November as well.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: So for people that are out of state and out of Boulder, please check those out.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: I finally want to mention my book, Deb.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yay! It's almost in my hands, reinventing Supermom.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: This is a book that is really focused on that postpartum period.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so the subtitle is Encouragement, Support, and Strategies for New Mothers Who Feel Lost.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it really is little bites of ways to bring mental health back into the picture, postpartum.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to offer that up to folks as well.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yay, Dub.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: I love you.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: Next season, which will start in January.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna start interviewing some badass guest people.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, stick around with us.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_04: We can't wait to hear from you.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for listening and have a wonderful day.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_04: Cheers to being you.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_04: Cheers to being you, cheers to being you, Deb.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_04: Cheers to being you.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_04: Love ya.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_04: Love you too.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_04: Bye.