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Female Firsts: Drusilla Dunjee Houston · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Steff I've never told you a production
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio, and welcome to another edition of Female First,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: the first of twenty twenty four, which means we are
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: once again joined by the wonderful, the winsome, the fantastic Eves.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Welcome you, Hey, y'all, Happy New Year, Happy twenty twenty four.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Still get used to say in that year, me too,
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: me too.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Very confused because that was an exploration date all my stuff.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: I was like, that's next year, and I was like, wait,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: oh no, this happens. Samantha, Hey, drinkety keep going.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, it is so good to have you with us, Eves,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: because we didn't we weren't able to have you for
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: the last month the year of twenty twenty three, so
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: we have some catching up to do.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: How have you been What have you been up to?
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: I've been up to figure out what the heck is
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: going on in this new year?
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Pretty much.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: What have I been up to? I didn't really do
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: much for the New Year. For the holidays, I just
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: kind of stuck around. It's been pretty quiet for this
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: for the end of the year. But I think this
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: new year is off and running to a good start.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: I'm writing things I love, I'm reading good things. Yeah,
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: so I'm looking forward to the rest of twenty twenty
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: four and seeing what happens. Nice.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Nice it is. We we had a podcast episode about
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: this recently. Smith and I both really don't do anything
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: for New Year's either. But one of the things that
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I love to do is just write whatever I want
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: to write, read whatever I want to do, read whatever
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: I want to read.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm down with that completely. So nice. Yeah.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: I didn't really make any I made some list for
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: things that I want to like, things that I'm aiming
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: for this year because or some big things that I'm
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: aiming for. But I don't feel too attached to anything,
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: like I think that the way things are pacing out
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: and things that are happening already in the beginning of
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: the year, I feel like I'm going in a good direction.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: I don't need to be forcing anything, you know, trying
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: to hold on to anything too tightly that I have planned.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: So I don't know. I got I got some things
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: that I'm I'm looking at that I wrote down, you know,
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: that I put out into the world, and then I'm
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: focused on, but I'm going with the flow. Yeah.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Nice. Yes, we did learn a fun fact about you,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: and that is the UFC.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Yes, do guilty.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's amazing. I think that's hilarious because that's just
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: so different from your personality that I'm like, that's what
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: you enjoy. That makes sense in my head of like
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: the opposite.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: You don't think I like to watch people beat other
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: people up.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: And that would not be something I would assume immediately,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: that's not the first thing.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, honestly, I wish I had the skills. I kinda like,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: I don't want to get beat up. I say that
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: every time I watched it. I don't. I just I
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: don't want to be hit in the face. I don't
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: want scars, I don't want cauliflower ear. I don't want
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: to be healing injuries all the time. I've been to
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: physical therapy multiple times in my life, and it is
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: a process. I don't want to have to go through
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: strict eating and regimens. I don't want to have to
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: be so serious about maintaining a certain schedule of exercise.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Like I like, you know, I'm good without those things,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: but I do wish I had the fighting skills.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: At the same time, I do wish I could have,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: like have the combat skills as well, and like just
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: in case, you know those you know, imagine moments like
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: what if this happens, would I be able to do
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: these reactionary things? But in general, like the thought of
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: being hit, no, thank you.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: The one thing about it, though, is that you really
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: realize how important skill is when it comes to combat.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: It's like sometimes people, you know, people can be way
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: bigger than another person, but they just don't have the
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: skill that they have and whatever the skill may be,
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: like if it's grappling, it's like one person may not
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: know how to get out of a certain position because
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: they just don't have the skill. And you can be
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: so much smaller than them. And maybe when it comes
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: to power or strengths, you may have that over them,
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: but they can still they can still kill you, they
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: can still injure you. True very very deeply, and it's interesting,
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: it's very very primitive. There are a lot of times
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: when I'm watching and I'm looking at the crowd yelling
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: ridiculous things and seeing people just like fighting for fifteen
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: minutes in oct to God, and I'm like, yeah, that's
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: what humanity's about timeshah, ancient ancient history that I'm watching
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: with a lot of other politics wrapped up into right
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: right that aside, you know, good old fashion, clean fun.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Clean fun. You know. One of my favorite segments is
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: when those really big burly dudes have never had any training,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: but they work out, want to challenge the UFCU women
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and then they get their asses handed to them. That's
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: my favorite thing to watch, honestly, Like last see TikTok
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: clips of that. I'm like, yes, that is satisfaction. And
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: seeing like this one hundred and thirty pound woman because
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: she's all muscle with this two hundred and fifty pound
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: dude who's like I could take her, and then being
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: like taken out in like two seconds and in a
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: chokehold and asleep. I'm like, yeah, yeah, now I do
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: enjoy that. Yeah yeah.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: And I think with sports, because I don't watch a
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: lot of other sports, it's really fun to look at
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: people like I've learned a lot over the years of
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: watching it, like knowing what to look for when people
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: are more skilled than other people, when I'm pretty sure
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: I know how a fight's gonna go. But it's cool
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: to watch people and be like, you're not gonna get this.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: You need to do this, you need to do that. Meanwhile,
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: I know nothing. I've never thought. I've never done any
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: sort of martial arts. Definitely haven't done mixed martial arts.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: But you know, you get to be on the other
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: side of skirt the screen and just judge them.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: And yelling commentator. That sounds like that. You need to try.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: I pretend to be I do pretend to be a
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: commentation when I watch.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: I need you to try one time around for a
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: good fight and then just be commentator. That would be phenomenal.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: You know, that would be fun. But I think about it.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: It's funny because you know, we all podcasters, so we
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: talk a lot. We do it for work. But when
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: I watch commentators, I'm like, that's a lot of talking.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: They do so much filler talking it is to do.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: They say the same things in different ways, which honestly,
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: I am very inspired by. I guess I speaker. They
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: know how to say the same thing over and over
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: in nine million different ways. And I you know, I
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: can't help, but I can't deny the legitimacy and the
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: skill in that you have to get.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: A catchphrase is what I found like in most like
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: commentators that you know so that they can be redone
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: by others and you know immediately who it is, like.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: The different football.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: I love soccer when it's the Irish commentators or Scottish
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: commentators where they just get angry. It's the players. Those
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: are my favorites.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: But I've never a skill.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't have to find something because they just
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: get yelled at about being a pansy and they need
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: to get up because they're like, so it's become and
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I don't. I can't play soccer. I can't imagine the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: strengthening itself. But a lot of the times different players
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: would try to get fouls penalties rather I guess, and
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: so would kind of dramatically fall or do these things.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: And so some Scottish amidators would get really pissed off
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: about it and would just scream at the at the
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: tell them didn't get telling them to get up and
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: stop doing this because they were getting so upset by
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: all the penalties and constant stopping. That's really funny.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: It does seem like it would be frustrating.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I think you should take it on one guest.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Maybe if you need to mind. Wait, get this done. Yeah,
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: and then you should come up with your persona.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: We never were in a fantasy world going to be
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: a fighter. I mean that's the fun part in my opinion.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, So we're giving you like homework to
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: ask well, yeah, thanks for that very long to do list.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's important. It's important to you need to be wrong.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: I was going to do a transition about breaking down
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: things that haven't aged well. Now that relates to who
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: we're talking about today, because you were kind of talking
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: about that with UFC. But I say, let's just go
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: into no we got you the first time. Annie, Yes,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: who did you bring for us to talk about today?
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: Eaves? So today we'll be talking about Drusilla Dungee Houston.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: So I guess if we're talking about things that haven't
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: aged well, she did talk a lot about ancient history.
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  Speaker 3: A lot of her work was focused on that. She
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: cared a lot about history and sharing history and educating
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: people on history. And there are some things in her
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: work that are disputed, have been kind of shot down,
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: and there are other things that have lasted and have
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: aged well. So I think there is somewhere we can
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: go with that, Annie, we have a transition. So Drusilla
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: Dungee Houston was the earliest African American woman to write
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: a multi volume study of ancient Africa. So she has
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: a long history of writing about history. And yeah, I'm
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: excited to share her story with everyone today.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, this one is another fascinating one I didn't
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: know about. So thank you as always. Shall we get
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: into the history, yes we shall so.
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  Speaker 3: Drusilla Dunchee Houston was born in January of eighteen seventy
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: six in Harper's Ferry in West Virginia. So her parents
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  Speaker 3: were Reverend John William Dungee and Lydia and Taylor Dungee.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: So they have their own history and the way that
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: they brought up Drusilla Dunchee Houston factored a lot into
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: the direction that she chose to go in because John
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: was an educator, he was a publisher, and he was
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: a missionary who had founded Baptist churches across the United
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: States that were mostly in rural areas. He was born
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: into slavery and he escaped in and he made his
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: way to Canada, but eventually he came back to the States.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: And so John and Lydia went around the South building churches.
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: They were members of the American Baptist Home Missionary Society.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: And that's how Houston herself too became devoted to the
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Baptist Church throughout her life because that's something that was
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: really part of her early life. It is something that
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: her parents instilled in her at one point. This is
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: later in Houston's history, but she even said in this
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: response letter that she wrote to someone who was talking
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: down about the church. She said, quote, the faith of
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: the Negro race is the hope of America. So she
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: instilled a lot of importance. She placed a lot of
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: importance upon faith, specifically the Christian faith. It guided a
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: lot of what she did. It was the reason that
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: she wrote. It was a thing that was the foundation
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: of why she did so much of what she did
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: when it came to educating people and writing about history
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: and specifically the history of black people. So Houston had
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: nine siblings, but only four of them lived to adulthood
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: and their names were Roscoe, Irving, Plant, and Ella. So
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: her siblings also did notable things. Her brother, Roscoe, he
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: was an activist and he was the owner and editor
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: of the newspaper Black Dispatch, which is out of Oklahoma
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: and after John who was Houston's father, after he died, Roscoe,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: Houston's brother, supported the family. He would sell vegetables, and
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Houston's other brother, Irving, was a managing editor of the
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Chicago Enterprise and an editor of the Negro Champion, which
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: was out of New York. So Houston she went to
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: finishing schools when her family lived in the Northern States,
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: but she didn't go to college, and the family moved
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: to Oklahoma Territory in eighteen ninety two, and they were
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: pretty well off. And Houston, even kind of later, really
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: places a lot of importance on how well she was.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: She was like, I know my class, and I know
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: that I didn't go to college, but my parents had
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: a lot of books and we had a lot of
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: arts and culture around us. She did do a little
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: bit of that in her writing, which was interesting, but hey,
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: if you got it, flaunted, I guess. So she studied
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: music and went to the Northwestern Conservatory of Music in Minnesota.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: She studied classical piano, and there are stories of how
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: she played piano for people and she gave poetry readings
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: that peoples get togethers, which sounds pretty swinky and She
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: had plans to be a concert pianist, but that didn't happen.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: She switched her focus and from eighteen ninety two to
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: till around the turn of the century she worked as
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: a kindergarten teacher in Oklahoma. In eighteen ninety eight, she
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: married a man named Price Houston. He was apparently a
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: businessman who was twenty years older than her. I didn't
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: really know much about him, but I do know that
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: she had two children with him, one named Florence and
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: the other one was a daughter who died pretty young.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: But Houston she opened McAllister Seminary for Girls in Oklahoma,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: and she let that school for twelve years. She also
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: wrote a screenplay in nineteen fifteen called The Madden Mob,
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: which was written as a refutation of Birth of a Nation.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: And in nineteen seventeen she went to Sepolpa, Oklahoma, and
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: she served as the principal of the Oklahoma Baptist College
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: for Girls, and there she stayed as the director and
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: the principal of the school until nineteen twenty three. She
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: also started the Oklahoma Vocational Institute of Fine Arts and Crafts,
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: which was a private school, so she did a bunch
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: of work in the school space. She was very invested
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: in the education specifically of black children, but also like
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: reading and education in general. She talked a lot about
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: how everybody needed to be educated, specifically about black history
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: and black history in the ways she was talking about it,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: which we'll get to a little bit later, but she
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: cared a lot about it. And there is a scholar
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: her name is doctor Peggy Brooks Bertram, who I'm going
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: to be referring to more in this episode, because she
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: has been really invested in the history of the Dundee family,
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: especially Houston, and she wrote a lot about them, did
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: a lot of research, So I'm going to refer to
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: things she said in some of the research that she
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: has done quite a bit in this episode. One thing
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: that doctor Brooks Bertram said about Houston was that she
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: was quote an extraordinarily private woman who felt compelled to
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: thrust herself into the major social and political dialogues of
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: her era end quote. So that makes a lot of
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: sense because of her upbringing. Apparently her father didn't really
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: want novels in the house, which is for because I
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: love novels, love fiction, But I guess he was about
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: that nonfiction and that clearly showed up in her in
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: the work that Houston did. So Houston was involved in
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: her brother, Roscoe's newspaper. So this was a whole clearly
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: also having to do with the way their parents raised them.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: The whole family was invested in journalism and scholarship, in
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: literary works, in political action and philosophy. You know, they
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: were invested in all of those spheres of interest. And
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: her brother Roscoe had a newspaper, the Black Dispatch, and
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: according to doctor Brooks Bertram, between nineteen fourteen and nineteen
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: thirty nine, Houston wrote more than two thousand editorials, so
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: she was busy with her pen. And Houston was also
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: a lecturer on African history. She was a self taught historian,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: and she did a lot of independent research using all
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: of the blok that her family had in her library
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: and other ones that she came across in her independent research.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: And this is where in her story we get to
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: the major focus of her biography. One of the things
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: that she's the most remembered for. So I think it
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: is you know, this happened so many times in people's
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: work that there is one large seminal text that is
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: the thing that they're really well remembered for. But Houston
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: did have, like I just said, she had two thousand editorials,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: so she did have a wealth of writing. But it
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: seemed like this she considered this her what would you
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: call it, magnum opus as well, this book because she
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: was kind of like she had some comments where she said, yeah,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: I did a bunch of those editorials and all that stuff,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: but the serious thing, No, that's all the work that
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: I did in this research is ancient history. And the
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: work that I'm referring to is Wonderful Ethiopians, the ancient
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Kushite Empire. That's the work. That is the thing that
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: she focused on in her life that she spent many
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: years working on, and she really cared a lot about
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: and she cares so much about people being able to
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: read it and understand the history that she was talking
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: about in the book, talking about Kushite as in kush
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: the ancient kingdom in Northern Africa, and she said that W. E. B.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Duboce's book The Negro was her inspiration for writing Wonderful Ethiopians.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: And this is selfishly one of my favorite parts of
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: her story because I love beefs and this was kind
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: of a beef between two notable people to people who
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: were really intelligent and really invested in the work that
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: they were doing, really cared about black culture and about
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: black history. And this part of story is really really
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: interesting to me because she said she was inspired by
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: the negro W. E. B. Du Boyce's book, but Dubois
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: didn't mention it in his publication The Crisis, which I
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: mean was a very important publication. He said he would
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: mention it in there. And when she wrote to him
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: telling him about her book, he told her basically that
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: she needed to study a little bit more before writing
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: about ancient history. He was like, oh, yeah, this book
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: is very interesting, thank you for sending it to me,
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: But hm, I think you need to return to your
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: studies if you're going to write things that people can read.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: And so understandably, she kind of took offense to that.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that's why I started writing like I'm I've studied,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I know this level. I'm high class made like correspond
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: to him to embassy?
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Did she did? And she responded back to him kind
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: of saying that where she was like, excuse me, I
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: don't need your white institutions to validate the work that
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: I do. I have a bunch of books in my life,
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: and well, you know, my family had a bunch of
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: books in their library. I've done my own research, you know,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: I've created this whole book based on so many other
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: sources that I've read. So after this point, she really
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: came in heavy and came in hot with the criticism
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: in public and in private of Dubois, which was rough
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: because I know a lot of people who are listening
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: here will be familiar with W. E. B. Dubois. He
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: really was very influential in the literary world, in the
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: social world, political sphere at the time, so that was
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: a heavy target. You know, he wasn't a small target
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: to come up against. But she was not playing. She
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: was defending, you know, her own legitimacy and the importance
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: of work. But it was also hard one because women
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: were reliant on men for publication at the time. They
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: were the ones who were the liaisons and the ones
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: who ran these publishers, and so you needed these kinds
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: of connections to be able to get your work out
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: to more people. And of course Houston wanted to do
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: that because you really cared about more people knowing this
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: ancient history, and you know, on top of meeting men
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: in general for publication, it was Due Boys. So a
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: lot of people were in love with Due Boys because
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: of who he was and what he could do for people,
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: and rightfully so, he was a very notable scholar in
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: his own right. So the way that it seemed to
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: me because of how people responded, you know, they weren't
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: going to take too well to this woman who they
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: didn't know, Houston, who they were just being introduced to,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: versus this big, this figure with this stature of Dubois,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: are like, well, who are you coming up against?
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: You?
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Boys? So in my mind I kind of see this
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: as a cancelation in a way because Houston, she didn't
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: her book didn't do amazingly well. It didn't get into
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: as many spaces as she wanted it to get into.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: So that is a fascinating part of her story, I
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: feel like, and it goes deeper than that, and you can,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: you know, you can see that in the public criticism
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: that she had of du Bois, where she would come
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: up against him, where she was louding him before in
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: newspapers and magazine, she started going in the other direction
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: and really calling him out in a negative way. So, yeah,
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: beef in history, that's amazing, but okay. So but on
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: the book, it was published in nineteen twenty six, and
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: this was volume. It was subtitled Nations of the Kushite
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: Empire Marvelous Facts from Authentic Records. Like I said earlier,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: she couldn't really get access to these white publishing houses
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: that were publishing a lot of black text at the time,
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: so she established Ethiopian Press and she used the Black
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Dispatches printing presses to make her book. So this was
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: a self publishing effort, and at first five hundred copies
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: were printed and they were sold for two dollars and
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: fifty cents, which would be about forty three dollars today.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: But she couldn't market the book because her own funds
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: were wrapped up in this thing, and so she sold
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: it through mail order. So at this time was in
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: nineteen twenty so this was during the Harlem Renaissance. There
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: was a lot of focus on black work, on black culture, literature, poetry,
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: and fiction. But Houston herself, she wasn't really a fan
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: of the Harlem Renaissance kind of work. She was more
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: interested in history than she was in art and she
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: was kind of like upset about how people were gravitating
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: more toward the arts than history, which is very interesting
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: to me. I know that, you know, when you have
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: a work and you have this text that you work
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: so hard on, you really got to you gotta be
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: your own biggest fan. You got to root for yourself.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: And I understand that part of me wonders, you know.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: And I also know like when you're working on a
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: work that's that big, it can feel like the entire
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: world is revolving around it. So that part is really
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: interesting to me because it's not as if all those
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: things can't coexist together. And a lot of people who
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: were involved in the arts and during the Harlem Renaissance
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: period were obviously like making a lot of progress when
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: it came to writing works that were true to them
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: that they were able to get into larger mainstream attention.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: But yeah, so it was important too, Like it's still obviously,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: you know, everybody does, I care about history too, So
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: of course that's still important. But yeah, at the end
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: of volume one, she says that book two she mentions
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: a book too, and says that it gives more authentic
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: information upon this subject than any other book extant. So
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: these books she was it was there were kind of
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: a correction of the record, a way to uplift the
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: black history and how its origins were in Africa, specifically
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: the Nile Valley. She referred to it as a cradle
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: of civilization and was going up against this racist history
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: that was put forth by many archaeologists. So it's been
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: referred to of kind of like race writing or racial
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: uplift writing. But I don't want to downplay the work
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: because she was very focused in research and focused in
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: history in the work that she did. However, that original
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: publication didn't have a bibliography, it didn't have footnotes, it
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: didn't have endnotes or an index, which was standard for
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: this kind of factual writing at the time as it
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: is now. And so she got praised for her work
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: of how deeply she dug into this ancient history, how
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: she was refuting a history that revolved around European history
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: and how integral people in Africa and what she considered
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: the cradle of civilization to be. But she also got
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: criticism for not having sources listed in her work for
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: any of those things. So people were kind of like, yeah,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: you're saying a lot and this is really fascinating and
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: it looks like you did your work, but I just
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: can't see your work. So that was also, you know,
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: a very real and a very valid child lenge for
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: people reading her work and trying to suss out the
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: credibility in her work and where the plausible deniability was.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: She also got criticism for her language being too flowery,
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: though she said that she did that on purpose. She
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: made it less technical in order to reach people who
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: were new to the info that she was presenting. So
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: that makes sense too with her background, because she really
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: cared about educating children and people across all borders. She said, Oh,
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: I want this. I want white people to read this.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: I want black people to read this. I want white
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: people to read this to see where they've gone wrong
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: and how they're misunderstand everything when it comes to history,
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: how they deny because of racism, that the greatness and
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: the splendor and the importance and the vastness of knowledge
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: that came from this area of the world. I want
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: everybody to read it. She wanted to sell enough books
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: to be able to put out a second a day,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: and she wanted it to go to all kinds of places,
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: so She wanted it to be in the classroom, you know,
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: she wanted, you know, individuals to be able to read
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: the book. So she really cared about disseminating this knowledge.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: She said that slavery had broke black folks in the
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: diaspora's knowledge of the greatness of our origin. So it
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: was very important for us to unlearn all of these
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: things that we were learning as standards in the curriculum
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: and classrooms. We were in learning about this European history,
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: but we weren't connecting it back to this ancient African history.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: And she wanted that connection to be made. And she
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: said that a lot of that was broken because of
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: the institution of slavery and how that separated people from
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: knowledge of their own actual history and therefore also the
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: greatness of that history. So really was the work that
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: she cared a lot about. And according to doctor Brooks Bertram,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: her work quote seriously challenged the belief that women writers
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: should limit themselves to poetry, novels, short stories, and place
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: because that was kind of the sphere that women could
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: have been expected to work in at the time. I mean,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: we know that this was an accomplishment, like Houston was
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: a pioneer in this field for women. There were men
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: who were writing about work, who were writing about ancient
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: history as it related to Africa, but there weren't many
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: women who were doing this and doctor Brooks Bertram said
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: that Houston's work also challenged the idea that a person
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: had to be a PhD. To be a historian, which
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: is something that Houston herself railed against obviously in her
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: communications with Dubois, but in general she went forth with
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: her work without having to be validated by a degree,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: to do the research and share the research that she did.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: So there is some discrepancy around how many volumes actually exist.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: So we know of the first one, the one that
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: we were just talking about. Houston herself said that she
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: wrote multiple volumes, maybe around six volumes of this work,
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: but there's not really a way to validate that because
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: we don't have a lot of those other works. There
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: are works that have been listed, like ones including Origin
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: of the Aryans and one called Cushites of Western Europe,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: and there are some other ones that Houston mentioned as well,
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: but we don't know where any of those are, if
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: they even exist, if they existed in manuscript form, if
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: they were ever printed any of that kind of thing.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Doctor Brooks Bertram did say that she was given a
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: corrected edition in two thousand and one of Wonderful Ethiopians,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: and she said that it was undated but had a bibliography, index, footnotes,
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: and more chapters, and that the corrections that were included
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: in that edition may have been made in the late
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: nineteen twenties or early nineteen thirties. But in the end,
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: a lot of Houston's work is lost to time, including
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: some of her fiction, poetry, essays, things like that. But
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: we have some of it, and we know a little
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: bit more about Houston's life. We know that she was
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: an active member of different clubs, like the Federated Women's
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Clubs of Oklahoma. We also know that in nineteen thirty
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: four she served as a religious director of the Oklahoma
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Home for Delinquent Boys. She was fluent in different languages,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: and in nineteen thirty six she was interviewed by folks
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: in the Negro Studies unit of the Federal Writers Project
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: that was under the Works Progress Administration. But she did
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: deal with illness for many years of her life. She
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: was affected by the flu epidemic in nineteen eighteen, and
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: she later got to berculosis and that was something that
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: really weighed heavily on her health over the years, and
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: she ended up dying in February of nineteen forty one
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: in Arizona, and true to her faith in Christianity, her
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: headstone says, to die is to gain. Yeah. So in
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five, Wonderful Ethiopians was republished through Black Classic Press,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: which publishes obscure and significant works by and about people
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: of African descent. And she was also recognized posthumously, and
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: there is a memorial scholarship that's named in her honor
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: that recognizes emergent women's scholars of African descent. So she
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: did get recognition. During her time. She was able to
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: sell some copies of her work, though I imagine is
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: not as many copies that she would have wanted to sell,
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: and not as many volumes of the book as she
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: would have wanted to pass out. But her legacy lives
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: on in the work of all the other scholars who
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: went on to talk about the relate the history of
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: people in the Black diaspora going back to Africa, showing
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: how those origins were ones that needed to be uplifted
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: and ones that needed to be learned about and honored,
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: and how a lot of the separation from that history
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: came from the history of the slave trade around the world,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: so very noble work, work that was pioneering and happy
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: to be able to share it today.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: I did not know the UFC, the mature at the top,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: would have so much, truly, I didn't know there's going
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: to be beef exactly.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: There was fighting involved, some punches were throwing. She sounds
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: like a fascinating person.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I love her kind of like shunning the
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: arts and the Harlem Renaissance, like this history way just
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: what we should be dealing with talking about.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm kind of like, okay, Boomer kind of a
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: situation like, yeah, like we should be talking about history.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: What do you know about that? You're worried about your arts? Yeah,
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: I mean no, I know she didn't mean it that way.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: I'm just joking, no, for sure, But it does have
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: that kind of because I have a relative who's like that,
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: who thinks fiction is worthless, like art is worthless, Like
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: he would be somebody who wouldn't have any non anything
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: but nonfiction in his home. And I've never understood it.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: I don't get it.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: But I just when you were sharing that story, I
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I feel like I know this person.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm there. As you know, there are still
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: people who who feel this way.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, you know, I find it fascinating too. Though. She
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: was kind of ahead of her time with that needing
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: the flowery language so that people can find history accessible,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: like we see that today with historians writing almost fictional
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: levels of accounts of what's happening, and they're not fictional,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: but they just draw out into a storytelling so that
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: people can read and understand better what was happening during
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: his historical times and also bring more interest probably also
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: sell more books.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: But like she was.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Ahead of her time in that way in creating something
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: that was accessible instead of just being like this is
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: what it is.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you, Samanthas, So thanks for bringing
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: up that point, because, like publishing was a lot different
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: than than it is now and to get things to
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: more people's bookshelves because the focus is on you know,
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: how big can we make this reach? How many people's
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: shelves can we reach? Home, more money can we make
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: because of volume, But back then it was more like
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: well where are your sources there wasn't so much separation
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: between like, Okay, what kind of balance can we bring
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: between the factual the facts in this thing and also
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: the readability of this thing didn't seem to be so
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: much of a concern back then. But it does seem
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: like kind of a kind of a pity because she
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: had something that could touch so many people's hands, but
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: it wasn't able to get out there like that because
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: of the challenges that she had with the actual publishing
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: process and the holes that were dug with the beef
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: and your health contributed to it, you know, I know
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: there was no longitudinal study done on what were the
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: factors that caused her book to not make it to
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: more people and fewer people to read it, but yeah,
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: I'm sure those things did not help a book that
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: could have been in the interest of way more people.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also think, you know, I think she
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: made a very great valid point about the kind of
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: the PhD thing and that you don't have to because
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: that can be so like gatekeepy and how much money
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: do you have and what connections you have in the
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: first place, and takes so long, which in one way
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: is yes, that makes sense, and that is good, but
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: if we were only getting information from from people who
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: had the time and ability to do that, then it
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: would be far less that we would have. But it
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: is also kind of funny because Samantha and I wrote
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: a book recently and it was a big thing about
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: the bibliography because we were both like, why can't we
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: put every source in there? And they were like, only
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: the ones that you really used, And this confused us
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: greatly and we're like, well, if we've listed it, we
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: used it, because I thought that was just like you
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: act like common practice, but they had us like go
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: through and cut out wow only and so only the
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: ones that we used like a lot from are in
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: the back and it's more of like a sources listed thing.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: But it was just because we've talked about that in
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: the podcasting world for a long time, is that sometimes
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: you we used to list our sources and now we don't,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: and we still keep them in case anyone asked. But
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: I always thought when you write a book.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: In the back.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Is a historical contact, Like we didn't make this up.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: But it's just interesting hearing this where she got a
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: lot of flak for not having the sources, and now
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: today it seems.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: They don't want them. They don't care. TikTok is the source.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: You can just put TikTok in the back. And they
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: were like, I saw it on the internet. I'm glad
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: that next time, next book, y'all just put up put
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: us on it on the internet and be done with that.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: The publishers like.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, yeah, perfect, thank you to love it.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, oh I know about TikTok for me. Yeah. To
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: be fair, though, I think that there was a little
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: bit more of a burden of proof on Houston because
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: of the theory she was espousing. She was put in
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: for a things. A lot of people were like, hmmm,
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know about that. Can you prove it to me? Like,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: this is the origin of civilization, this came from where
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: you know, we have alternate knowledge. Who are you? They
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: were like, you know, so they had all these questions. Yeah,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: they had a lot of questions. I think because it
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: was such it was they were such big ideas that
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: she was putting for. Yes, and I am a big fan.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: I think, yes, it's good to have sources and then
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: you can like look at them up and do more
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: reading yourself and maybe find out more yourself. It was
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: just kind of funny to me because we had this
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: happened with recently.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, I didn't hope it didn't hit home too hard, y'all.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: It's okay, We're sorry.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Sorry, Now we need to find someone to have a
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: beef with.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's go.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: I'm just like and then we get like all kinds
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: of stockersh emails. Right, you don't want we don't care
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: about do organ? Yeah?
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: Take that back, take that back.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Well, it was a delight as always, Eves, thank you
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: so much for sharing this story with us.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: Uh, where can the good listeners find you? You can
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: find me on Instagram at not Apologizing. You can also
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: go to my website there you can get to all
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: of the other places. My website is Eve's Jeffcoat dot com.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: You can also find me on the podcast on Theme,
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: which is a podcast about black storytelling. If you want
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: to learn more about that show, you can go to
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can go to
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: on Theme dot show. If you can also hear me
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: on many many other episodes of Sminty doing female First
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: talking about women in history who have pioneering accomplishments. Yes,
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: and we think we're coming up on a milestone, although
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: there's confusion about what the milestone is, but we'll Speaking
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: of record keeping, I'm not doing a great job over
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: here on Smithty, but we will.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: We will look into it in the meantime. Listeners, if
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: you would like to contact us, you can. You can
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: emails at stephaniea mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok at stephone Never Told You. We
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: have a tbelg story and yes we do have a book.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: You can get it wherever you get your books. Thanks
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: as always to our super producer Christina or executive producer
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Maya and our contributor Joey.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Steffan Never Told You is production by Heart Radio. For
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: more podcast from my Heart Radio, you can check out
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: that heart app, Apple Podcast, orhever you listen to your
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: favorite shows.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: H