Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 800: The Body is Where Life is with Hillary McBride

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Episode 800: The Body is Where Life is with Hillary McBride · The Trauma Therapist

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Right. Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
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about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. So here you
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go, five or three, two and our folks, welcome back to the
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podcast. I am very excited to have as my guest today, doctor Hillary
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McBride. Hillary, welcome back. Thank you so much for having me.
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I've been looking forward to this since our last conversation. I was ready.
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I was ready for the next one. You are welcome. So. Doctor
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McBride is registered psychologist, researcher, and podcaster with expertise that includes working with
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trauma, trauma therapies, and embodiment at the intersection of spirituality and mental health.
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Her first book, Mother's Daughters and Body Image, Learning to Love Ourselves
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as We Are was published in twenty seventeen. She was a senior editor of
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the textbook Embodiment and Eating Disorders Theory, Research, Prevention and Treatment, which
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was published in twenty eighteen. Her most recent book, The Wisdom of Your
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Body, Finding Wholeness, Healing and Connection through em Body Living came out in
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the fall of twenty twenty one, and her new book, which she's working
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on, I Gathering, is coming out in twenty twenty four and it's called
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Practices from Bodied Living. Hillary, welcome back, thank you. So let's
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okay, Well, let's want to start off here. Remind our listeners where
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you're from originally and where you are currently. Yeah. So I grew up
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on musk wiham Land in Thank you, and I currently live on the land
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of Lakwangan speaking people in Victoria, BC. So I've moved to an island
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just off the coast of Vancouver, which is it's an island. Is kind
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of deceptive because it's as long as the drive would take from Vancouver to California,
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but it is an island. So we got ocean all around, and
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that's that's important to me. So I'm in Victoria, so talk to us
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about this. I mean, obviously, as I read your bio. This
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one word pops out, embodied. We're paying attention, way to go why
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why? Yes? Why? Embodied? Okay, So I can hit that
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from a few different angles. One one of the angles would be the body
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is where life happens, right, And I feel really drawn to from a
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kind of existential human, humanistic spiritual perspective, this idea of what does it
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mean to be fully alive? What does it mean to be here right,
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to be in the lives that we're living, and to experience the richness and
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the fullness and the beauty of being here. And so I think that embodiment
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is really a call to be in our lives, to experience agency, illness,
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presence, connection. But of course the tension of this is that our
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bodies are also the place where it's really hard to be right. This where
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our trauma lives. It's where pain is death, objectification, where we experience
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marginalization. The I would say that the worst of being human and the worst
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of the human experiences we feel and live in our bodies. And so we've
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come to this experience through the history of I would say abstraction through rationalism,
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the enlightenment through religion, through philosophy, through the history of how power is
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conferred to be in a position where even though our bodies are where life is,
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we've somehow gotten the memo. We've had experiences that have made it feel
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very, very difficult to be in our bodies for many of us. So
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embodiment for me is really about a return to being who I think we could
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really be, both individually and as a species, and the process of healing
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that we need to go on along the way to restore this sense of fullness
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and a liveness that's available to us. Yeah, I love that. I
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mean, on one hand, it's so inspiring to hear you say that,
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and also with that comes a caveat that there's a lot. It's like a
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journey, It's like a hero's journey to get to that point. Almost when
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did this become prominent for you? Pronounce? For you? Yes, Well,
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the reality is that I had been I like to identify myself as having
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been a frequent flyer and eating disorder treatment. If there was a punch card,
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I would have my punch card of different treatments all punched out, and
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I had been given the narrative of the cognitive approach, the body image approach,
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the don't trust yourself because you can't trust yourself, but you can trust
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us from the kind of the medical personnel approach. And I eventually met a
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therapist, and she really distanced herself from most of the things that we would
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consider evidence based and eating disorder work, and instead we focused on philosophy and
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consciousness raising and feminism and phenomenology. And it was like she allowed me to
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remember that there was more to me than the hierarchy of disembodiment that I'd been
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handed both by culture but also by the medical professionals who were actually trying to
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help me. And I remember this one time in our clinical work. We
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had been doing therapy for a number of years at this point, and she
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was really kind of the last person I saw at that I would I would
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call it the kind of the last ditch effort. I remember she asked me
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one time, do you notice how you're sitting in your chair? Do you
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notice do you notice how you are showing up here today? And it was
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on the heels of me sharing something really like alive and connected, and I
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felt inspired and hopeful and this really big thing I'd taken, this big risk
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in my life at that point and it was the first moment where I remember
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actually realizing that I had a body, right Like, this was a significant
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moment in my life of going, I have a body, and it's in
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the room, and other people know it's here, and it says something about
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me. It communicates something about my internal reality. And she was able to
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say, like, can I hold up to up for you? Next to
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this, by contrast how you would sit in the chair when we first started
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working together. And that moment, the way I tell the story, was
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that it was as if consciousness had been floating in my brain, in my
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head and had been pinched at my neck right, as if it was a
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balloon and I had been pinching the neck of the balloon and all the air
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had been stuck inside my head. And I opened my hands and all of
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the air or my consciousness started to flow through my body, and I remembered,
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I have hands. Oh, my goodness, my leg is sleep.
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Oh. I don't know if this is really comfortable. How am I sister
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sitting right? There was this really experiential encounter with embodiment that came before I
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even understood what the word meant, and it was the sense of being a
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body existing in space and realizing that my body was seen and known by somebody
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else, and my body told the story of what it felt like to be
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me. So, I mean, I can say more about the kind of
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the where it branched into the academic, but it was for me first experiential
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and a lived encounter with what it was like to be a body, not
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just a mind that was carried around by the flesh suit first of all.
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And this I'm like saying to myself, this is why I freaking brought you
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back here, because you have just an incredibly beautiful and inspiring way of particulating
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this. You know, to hear you share that it brings up this dichotomy
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or this polarity of what you were doing prior to this. I mean to
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help me here, But an eating disorder feels almost like the antithesis of that
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in a sense. That's it. Yeah, was going on for you such
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that to shun or block up the body, Yeah, And I would I
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would actually go further than that. I would say I wasn't just trying to
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block out the body. I was actually trying to kill my body. I
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was trying to make my body disappear like this was about complete body eradication,
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not just by living my day to day in my mind, but about actually
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trying to dry up any resources that my body needed to survive such that it
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wouldn't be the obstacle that I thought it was, It wouldn't be the barrier
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to yeah to being me that I thought that I needed. And I can
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trace that back the way that I narrate the story of tracing that back in
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terms of the functionality the eating disorder and what I needed. The story has
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changed the more I understand trauma, the more I understand affect regulation, the
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more I understand interpersonal neurobiology, because for a while, I remember thinking,
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well, I didn't experience sexual abuse as a kid, and I was never
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shaped body shamed by my peers, you know, some of the things that
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we think of as being these gateway experiences to disembodiment and eating disorders. But
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I was always a sensitive being, which means that everything that I felt felt
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like it was dialed up all the way ten out of ten in a way
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that I don't remember hearing I'd rather talk about, and my friends didn't experience.
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And my mom tells the story of me as a kid needing to have
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my bed sheets washed three times, once was soap and twice without, because
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if there was any soap residu on the bed sheets, I would get a
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rash all over my body. And it was like this kind of intensity that
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everything that I was encountering felt like it was too much for me to be
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in the world. And I remember for the most part that that was held
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really well by the people around me, and I felt like that was never
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weaponized against me or I was never pathologized for that. But there was a
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point at which it got even louder, and I remember happing that around that
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happening around puberty, around my adolescence, when I started to find my voice
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and it felt like not only was it loud inside of me, but I
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started to make it loud outside of me in a way that that became too
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much for the people in my life. Specifically, the relationship I had with
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my mom really started to change as I started to speak up and use my
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voice, and her and I've done a lot of work around that in terms
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of what was getting stirred up for her and her own but I remember thinking,
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oh, here's the proof, right, my body is too much for
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me. But now my body is also too much for everyone around me,
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and my body is a threat. I'm experiencing sexual objectification. I'm experiencing this
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reality that my body's out of my control and it's changing the way people see
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me and I experience myself, and that feels that feels terrifying. It feels
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out of control, like it's lacking agency. And what we understand, I
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mean. Neva Puran's scholarly work around this has been really impactful for me.
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But her assessment of the role of disembodiment and embodiment in the development of eating
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disorders is that eating disorders are about restricted agency and they're about the subjugation of
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the body. That when our body is the only thing that we have to
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enact our sense of agency in the world as humans, we are so adept
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at finding a way to survive that we will even turn against ourselves to feel
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like we have some way of gripping a sense of control, power, agency.
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So I wish that it was more glamorous than that, but I think
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that reality is that this is I don't wish it was more glamorous. I
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wish that I had perhaps a more specific story that I could narrate in a
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way that I said, you know, this specific thing happened, and then
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all of a sudden, the eating disorder made all the pain go away.
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But I think it was actually it was the medicine that I needed to make
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feeling what it was like to be me go away. The eating disorder was
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the remedy, at least for a time, to help me tolerate that being
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me in the world felt like it was way too much, way too much
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for me, and way too much for the people around me, And so
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I started really slowly, do you make my body disappear? You mentioned a
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researcher who did a lot of work on me, the paran and I a
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p R. A. N. Her work in the field of embody has
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been, I mean revolutionary. She's been doing decades of research about what is
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embodiment, how it develops, what is disembodiment, how we understand embodiment and
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eating disorders in particular, and the kind of work that we need to do
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to help people experience in the safety of being in their body. The story
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you shared with that UH therapist who sounds amazing, and that that that image
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of you recognized and or feeling yourself in that in that shair in a sense
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as that, how did that unfold to give you more energy and embodiment?
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Or yeah, agency rather yeah, how how did it unfold to have that
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experience? Or like, what's what happened next in my embodiment journey? Yeah?
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Yeah, yeah, Well I did the the totally you know, sensical
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thing that everyone would recommend if you were a treatment resistant patient with a disorder
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eating presentation go to grad school. Of course, I was actually, it's
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kind of funny to think about it now, because I would never recommend this
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for my patients, but I understand the utility of it for me in my
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life. But I was on the cusp of going into treatment again. I
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was set my spot had come up in a residential program. And also I
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had been thinking, I'm feeling constrained by the identity of being in eating disorder
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treatment so fully that it feels like it's eclipsing my ability to remember any other
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dimension of myself. And so I had been starting to apply finish my undergrad
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at that point of starting to apply for graduate programs, thinking I kind of
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want to study a bit more research, do it? Like I want to
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study research. I want to study psychology. I want to do a little
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bit more of that. And I had these two presentations in front of me
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at the same time. One was to go back into treatment and one was
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to do something totally different. And I felt like I'd ex all my options
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for treatment. I felt like I knew what I was going to get.
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I felt like I knew who I was going to have to be. I
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felt like I could, you know, I could do that. I could
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put the hat back on of performing the recovered person and kind of adhering to
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these, you know, behavioral protocols that other people told me would make me
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feel better. And I felt like you might even call it like life energy
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or some sort of something inside of me said do something different, right,
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you know how that's going to go. There's a chance that you could feel
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more alive if you take a risk and do something different. So I went
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back into grad school very much in my eating disorder recovery journey, and I
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started to ask the question, Okay, if I'm going to research something,
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I want to research something that is close to me, which is the case
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for many of us. And I thought, you know, if I was
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ever to have a daughter one day, I'd want to know that I could
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give her the best possible chance to stay connected to herself, to not have
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to leave her body to feel like she could broke her connection in the world.
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So I started researching body image and particularly looking at positive body image as
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an inoculating factor against eating disorders. And what I found actually in the data
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is that positive body image is great, but it still has a kind of
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disembodying quality to it. That when we are considering ourselves to be an image,
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that we are not actually inhabiting ourselves in a sensory way. We are
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still leaving ourselves to hold an abstraction of our appearance. That yes, it's
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great if we evaluate our appearance positively, and if I can look at my
16:30
body through the eyes of someone else or in the mirror and say, wow,
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I like how that looks. I mean, I don't think that hurts
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anybody. But there is still some things that's missing in terms of the felt,
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sensory experience of being human. And it was actually Neva Paran's work that
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redirected me to this idea of embodiment as inoculating against negative body image. It
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seems that when we stay connected to our experience of being human in a more
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textural, dynamic, lived, felt, sense, intuited way that we attribute
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more of the resources of our identity to what it is like inside of us,
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and less resources to how we experience or interpret our image and then consequently
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how other people interpret our image. So there's something that really shifted from me
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and realizing, Okay, I actually need to start feeling what it's like to
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be in my body right. I can't just keep thinking about trying to change
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how I think about how I look right. That is so many layers removed
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from me. It's like to actually be me right of all of the layers
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of that. And so that felt like another big shift for me in terms
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of going, okay, I really got to get serious about why it's hard
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to feel into my body and what I'm going to do about that next.
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Jesus, this word how you described being embodied for me, it's so it's
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hard, it's challenging. I remember when I was in graduate school and people,
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you know, through courses, feel your body and feel in like what,
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no, what does that mean? You know, give me a cookie?
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Why? And and when we we talk about this within the context of
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our world at this point, as you I think said earlier on Touched upon
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Her it seems not only challenging, but almost uh. It requires a certain
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selflessness, selfishness almost, it requires a certain uh tenacity. I think it
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requires focus. I mean, it's calling us back into ourselves. It's it's
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you know, I've been going through a Not to shift this to me,
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but I've been going through my own healing thing, and just the whole healing
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process in and of itself, as we all know, is friggin hard,
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and it's like, we have to find what's going to work for us and
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reclaim our bodies. What is your response to that? What do you say?
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Yeah? I think that again, we come to disembodiment actually quite naturally
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in the culture that we live in and based on the lived experiences that we've
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had. Although I want to hold up embodiment as in a way a kind
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of picture of wholeness, of integration, of healing, the kind of ideal
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perspective and experience of being human, the reality is that we have inherited and
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we are constantly encountering experiences that both make it really difficult to be in our
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bodies and pull our attention away from our bodies. Like I'm just thinking about
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how early it starts in our attachment relationships, where often we have a felt,
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bodily knowing inside that says something's not right, you know. An example
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that comes to mind is of a kid seeing their parent distressed and going in,
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mom, are you are you angry? There's something in us that's actually
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wired to feel in our own body, the distress of someone else's body,
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and our caregiver, perhaps not knowing how to regulate their own emotions or not
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having been told it's okay to feel, or trying to protect the kids,
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says oh, no, no, I'm not upset. No, no,
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no, no, that's fine. Don't know nothing to see here, and
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we have these early experiences going oh, am I wrong? Or is she
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wrong? Right? Do I? And I think that? You know?
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Another example of that would be the early experiences that we have of being told
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when you stay connected to your knowing maybe about feeling right. Feeling is a
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body process. I'm angry, this isn't fair. I don't like this,
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I'm sad, I'm lonely, I'm scared. What we're told is that that's
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not allowed to be there. Right. We are met socially, relationally,
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often with stories about how what we're sensing and experiencing inside is is going to
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cost us both survival and connection and belonging and love and approval. And so
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I think we have very subtle early experiences that get woven into our relationship with
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our body that we carry around where we often are in an unconscious way,
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faced with this tension of I either stay connected to me or I stay connected
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to you, but I can't do both. And we could extrapolate the you
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to be you know, you another person, you, a caregiver, but
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also you, society, you culture, you right, maybe even big picture
21:53
of transpersonal God right. Maybe maybe in some religious context, we've heard if
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I, if I'm connected to my body, I do bad things and therefore
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I'm not loved by God, or I you know, I'm going to experience
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shame or judgment from my religious community. So I think that many of us
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find it really really hard to be in our bodies because we end up bumping
22:14
against, bumping up against the old wiring. And I would say the you
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know, the bio psychosocial loops that we inherit that say the cost of being
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connected to our body is actually going to be so much greater than whatever we
22:32
could gain by staying connected, and so we put labels on it. Right,
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it's like it's a waste of time, it's selfish, it's dangerous.
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And the truth is that because and I think of you know, so much
22:44
of the of the framework that I've inherited from the scholars who've done this work.
22:48
But mind and body are a constantly dynamic process, right that are also
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relational mind, body and relationship is what it means to be the self essentially
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when all of those are flowing within and between each other, that it's really
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really hard to actually stay connected to what it's like to be me without also
23:08
having the social resource to reinforce that that's a safe and okay thing to do.
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So I think we I just want to paint a picture of complexity so
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that none of us walk away from this conversation feeling shame of like why is
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it? You know, is it bad that I'm not connected to my body?
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And I want to say, of course you're not connected? Hell no,
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right, Like what chance did you have? Right? Right? Given?
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Like when you look at trauma, trauma is makes it feel so terrible
23:37
to be in our bodies because of the loudness and the intensity of the terror
23:41
and the panic and the overwhelmed. So no wonder or like you know,
23:45
the aloneness or the disconnection, No wonder. We didn't really have a chance,
23:48
did we. And yet when we're on the healing journey, ahuh,
23:59
we're called back to the body. Yeah, in a way, it's the
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only way, right, playing back, hold back. Well. I have
24:10
a friend Jamie who she's a poet, and she always says, a loud
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body is a kind body, right, A loud body is a kind body.
24:18
Yeah, this idea that we've misconstrued the loudness of our body as a
24:22
violation of the goodness of life. And actually the loudness of our body is
24:27
our body saying, listen, something is not right, something needs attention,
24:33
right. And I think if the Leonard Cohen line, like the crack is
24:37
where the light gets gets in, it's when we have these experiences of intensity
24:42
that we then use and misconstrue is proof that our body is bad. Right,
24:47
we scapegoat our body. Actually what that might be is our body saying,
24:52
like, listen, there is something here that is asking to be healed.
24:56
And if you actually only go into it more, you'll find that there
25:00
is something waiting to be integrated on the other side. But it takes social
25:07
connection, courage, and I think sometimes like bold face, trust and faith
25:11
to say, if I go towards what I've felt hurt by or what holds
25:18
the hurt, that I'm not going to get hurt more. It's brave to
25:23
be in the body, and the body holds so much information about how scary
25:29
it is to be alive. And yet again, as you're saying, we
25:30
do that because there's something on the other side. When I can feel the
25:36
intensity of the terror, then I also get the beauty and the fullness of
25:42
the joy. And when I know how to tolerate the things that are hard
25:47
to tolerate, I don't have to keep making decisions in my life based on
25:51
what I'm trying to avoid, because I know whatever I find inside, I'll
25:53
actually be able to be with, whether it's hard, good, beautiful or
25:57
not. And then I think, ultimately, as you alluded to, this
26:02
healing journey is meant to take us beyond ourselves into the interpersonal. It's meant
26:07
to take us into the collective and the transpersonal. And I think what happens
26:11
is that when I am connected to my body it makes it easier for me
26:17
to be connected to you. I think of how often these these at ruptures
26:21
in connection, just on a day to day level happen because what comes up
26:26
in you actually evokes something in me that I don't want to feel or I
26:30
don't want to look at. Right, Like, I think about so many
26:33
of the even the social and racial conversations that we're having about justice. Right,
26:37
if you are telling me about your pain, and all of a sudden,
26:41
I feel guilt, or I feel sadness, or I feel shame,
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or I feel my own anger, I feel whatever, and I don't want
26:47
to be with that. I'm going to try to shut you up, right,
26:48
But that's actually not because you're saying anything bad. That's because I don't
26:52
know how to be with the intensity of those feelings in me. And so
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I think that our ability to feel in our bodies allows us to be with
26:59
other people as they are in theirs. And then there's this other kind of
27:03
magical, mystical thing that I, you know, started to happen for me.
27:07
And I'll just put this on the table in case it's of interest to
27:08
anyone, knowing that this might not be where people want to go or where
27:11
they're at. But when I slow down and feel in my body, I
27:15
start to notice things like, oh, it feels better. Oh, it
27:19
feels better to be outside. Oh, I don't owe my neck hurts when
27:23
I'm looking down on my phone all the time. Right, Oh, I'm
27:26
going to go out. Oh oh, I actually noticed the spark when I
27:30
looked in your eye. And I saw the spark in your eye. And
27:33
oh, my goodness. Wow, I now that I'm outside and I'm not
27:36
just with my head down all the time. I'm noticing that the tulips are
27:40
blooming and the daffodils are out, and whoa, that color is so beautiful
27:44
and wow, oh this earth is doing something, and wow, maybe I
27:48
actually kind of want to take care of this little piece of earth that I'm
27:51
connected to. And wow, it tells me something about rhythms and my body
27:53
and rhythms around us, and how all of us are being held by the
27:56
same piece of land. And wow, it actually we're all really connected,
28:00
aren't we. And maybe the same thing that's alive in that flower and the
28:04
earth is alive and me and in you, And I think it takes us
28:10
ultimately ultimately into a kind of like oneness experience if we take it to its
28:17
logical conclusion. But again, maybe it's just enough to say I'm going to
28:21
try to feel my anger and that's what I'm going to try to do,
28:23
and I'll worry about one is consciousness later. Well, no, I think
28:26
that's a beautiful sentiment, and I think that's that deserves another episode. Really
28:36
it does. But having said all that, it kind of is a perfect
28:42
lead into your new book coming out, which is Practices for Embodied Living.
28:48
Yeah, give us as we kind of wind down here, but give us
28:52
the why did you write this book? Yeah, there's a problem with writing
28:56
a book about embodiment in that it it's by its very nature extremely cerebral.
29:03
Right, I'm trying to explain the importance of being a body in a way
29:07
that takes people out of their bodies. I assume. I mean, ultimately
29:10
the aim of my book, The Wisdom of Your Body, would be that
29:12
people will go, oh, I've got the buy in. I really do
29:17
need to stay connected to my body, and there's a good reason why my
29:19
body is doing everything that's happening. But what I wanted to do is take
29:23
that conversation further and say, Okay, here are some things for you to
29:27
do and try and experiments that help you get to know yourself again as a
29:33
body. Right if you are thinking, Okay, I've got the buy in.
29:37
If I have the sense that this is a good thing to turn towards
29:41
my body, to bring my attention into my sensing self, Okay, I'm
29:44
bought in that that's important. But what do I do next? It's meant
29:48
to be a series of invitations and prompts and experiences that create opportunities for you
29:52
to meet yourself again, kind of like I don't know if you've heard of
29:56
the forty Questions to fall in Love that research, Yeah, you well with
30:00
I'm imagining it having a similar effect of like, Okay, if someone gives
30:03
me a starting place about the questions to ask and the experiences to have,
30:08
then it will allow me to see the goodness that's really there, to get
30:11
to know my sophomore Wow, and that's coming out in twenty twenty four.
30:17
Love to have you back. Oh, thank you to talk about that book
30:21
and probably before then, Hillary, You're incredible. Oh did you have this
30:27
beautiful, like I said, beautiful way of articulating these very important, necessary,
30:37
intense information that we all need to live in this crazy world. Yes,
30:45
but my god, how what's the best way for people to get in
30:48
contact with you? Oh? Well, first, before I share that,
30:51
I'm just wanting to really appreciate your you naming that that feels so encouraging to
30:55
me, to thank you for the invitation and for reflecting that to me.
31:00
Best way probably to get in touch with the work that I'm doing would be
31:03
on my website, hilaryelmiccride dot com. On social media, go to Twitter
31:07
and Instagram going Hillary el McBride or Hillary Leanna McBride, depending on which one
31:12
you're on, so you can find me there. I've got events posted,
31:15
usually things that I'm going to be speaking about talking about and new resources coming
31:19
out awesome. All right, we'll have that linked up at the show notes
31:22
page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Hillary again, thank you,
31:27
Thank you, such a joy to be with you. All right, Take
31:32
care, take care,