Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Evening With A Legend: Harley Cluxton III

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Evening With A Legend: Harley Cluxton III · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

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Evening With a Legend is a series of presentations exclusive to
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legends of the famous 24 hours of Le Mans giving us an opportunity
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to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
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By sharing stories and highlights of the big event, you get a chance
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to become part of the Legend of Le Mans with guests from different
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eras of over 100 years of racing.
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All right everyone.
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Welcome to a live evening with the legend tonight.
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We have an opportunity to bring a piece of Le Mans to you sharing in the Legend
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of Le Mans with guests from different eras of over 100 years of racing.
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And as your host, I'm delighted to introduce Harley Clarkston, a notable
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figure in the Motorsports community.
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Known for successful racing career with the Ferrari factory team and
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North American Racing team, Nat in the 1970s, becoming the youngest.
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Exclusive authorized Ferrari dealer in the US at the age of 26, but did you
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know that he played a pivotal role in sustaining and advancing the Mirage racing
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team's legacy at the 24 hours of Le Mans during the 1970s in 1975 following Gulf?
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Oil's withdrawal from International Motorsport.
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Harley acquired the Mirage team from John Wire and operating under
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his company Grand Touring Cars.
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He relocated the team to Arizona and continued to Field Mirage
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prototypes at Le Mans through the 1970s.
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Under his leadership, the Mirage cars consistently performed well at Le Mans,
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never finishing outside of the top 10.
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And Harley's commitment ensued that Mirage remained a competitive
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force in endurance racing during a transformative period in the sport.
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As a result, he was also recognized as member number one of the International
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Club de Piot in 2012, highlighting his significant contributions to Motorsport.
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And he's with us here tonight to recount some of that story.
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And with that, I'm your host crew chief Eric from the Motoring
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Podcast Network, welcoming everyone to this evening with a legend.
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So Harley, welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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Pleasure being here.
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Alright, Harley.
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Before we get into the Mirage story, earlier today there was a presentation
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that the folks here at the Sione Foundation enjoyed about Luigi Chinetti
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and his involvement with Lamonts.
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And as we mentioned in the introduction, you are also part of that story.
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So to kick things off and lead us into your Lamont journey, briefly
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tell us about the early racing days with Nat, the and Ferrari.
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Go back farther.
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My, uh.
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Father had sent me to Culver Military Academy in Indiana in my eighth
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grade year because I had a case of terminal telephone eyes with
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girls, and that was 19 59, 19 60.
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Only first classmen or seniors had a television.
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So the Plebes, which I was one, all we did for our hours off usually read
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magazines, and I had my road and tracks.
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I first started writing Mr. Connet because my heroes were Dan Gurney, Phil
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Hill, I. And I'd noticed that all of these Americans had driven for Mr. Cnet,
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Nat, and I'm sure you've, you've heard earlier that he had won Le Mans the 24 hours
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of Le Mans two times pre-war in Alpha and.
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And the third time he won, it was in 1946.
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That was after that, misunderstandings with the Germans and the French.
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And so he won the first race, post-war driving 23 hours himself
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because his co-driver, Lord Shelton, was drunk on cognac.
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So this is a guy.
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It drove 23 hours and won the 24 hours of Le Mansr himself in a Ferrari.
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So that was the relationship between Ferrari and Kennet and
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Ferrari only wanted to go racing.
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Kennet said, you build me the cars, 'cause I have a lot of rich
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quote customers in California.
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So built on that called, called California.
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Super America, America, whatever, and I'll sell 'em.
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So that was the relationship between CNET and it worked out pretty well.
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I think I wrote for three years or something and I, and I got really
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'cause of road and track versed on suspensions and what was happening and I
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was just kept on writing all this stuff to him, never getting anything back.
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Never really expecting to get anything back until my junior year, I think,
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and I got a letter back from him.
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By that time I was asking questions like, well, what happened to
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Phil, you know, at Lamont?
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Why did Jean to be in, didn't do something or whatever.
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So I got a letter back and he said.
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Come to Greenwich, Connecticut.
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Oh, I was in New York at that point.
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So I went there and I met him for the first time.
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And you know, he asked if I had had any racing or anything like that.
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And at that point I said, oh, just motorcycles.
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And he said, okay.
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I. He said, well, if you come over to Italy to Monza, Ferrari has a driving
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school at Monza, I'll sponsor you.
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And they were Formula Two cars.
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Now, I had never driven a Formula two car before and there were people that had just
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graduated like Jackie Icks and Derek Bell.
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And so it was, um, a real eye-opening experience.
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I was incredibly fast for the first lap, and then I usually
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went off, but I was hooked.
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And at that point, Mr.
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Canadian was always, you know, say, okay, so, you know, you showed
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some good reactions, but you're not concentrated hard enough.
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Never really understood what that was until two, three years later afterwards.
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So all through that, um, I graduated and then went to college.
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And in college got my license, my SCCA license through Mr.
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Connet, but it was up in Connecticut at that point, and
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I was at touring in New Orleans.
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He provided me a Ferri 2 75 GTB that I raised, and I still
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think I have the lap record at Limerock and B production in that.
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So it was that sort of relationship and that continued through
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my last two years in college.
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I had a real falling out with my father.
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And so I had to, uh, pay my tuition.
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So I said to Mr. Connet, I, is there anything I can do in the
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summer or anything like that?
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Thankfully in New Orleans, and the drinking age was 18 at that point,
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another big plus for me ended up being a bartender at Pete Fountain's.
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And at the same time, Mr. Connet would send me a used Ferrari to sell it.
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And he said, what I want you to do is.
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You sell the car.
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This is how much I want for the car, and you send all the money to me.
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And I said, okay.
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Yes sir, I will.
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Well, I said, Mr. Kennedy, I, I've never sold a car before.
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Said, well, you figure it out.
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I was figuring it out.
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And uh, this guy calls very well known.
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I. Man in New Orleans.
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He said, uh, I saw your ad. I'd like to see this car.
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It was a 2 52 plus two Ferrari.
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And I said, yes sir. Um, I'll bring it over.
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He said, yeah, bring it over.
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I just wanna tell you that Luigi called me and told me I should buy this car.
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I. I went, thanks.
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I drove over and I had all the paperwork and I had all this other stuff and he
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said, okay, how much do you want for it?
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I think it was $5,500.
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And I said, $5,500.
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He said, okay.
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Do you want me to make out the check to you or how do you wanna do that?
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So I said, just send it Mr. Kti, please.
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So that was his big test.
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That was Mr. CTI's test, which I passed.
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So then he continued.
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Send more cars to me and I got to know the car business pretty well.
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By that time, after college, I went into the military.
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I came out and on the GI Bill, I uh, went to law school.
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My first year back, I guess you would say, I was in law school,
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a freshman first year law.
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And so he asked me if I said, I'd really like to race if I could.
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And he said, okay, well why don't you go race Daytona then
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you can race for me at Daytona.
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And that was pretty exciting.
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And so Ronnie Bucknam was my co-driver who's a pretty famous American driver.
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He drove for Ford at Le Mans and very, very good driver and, and he won Honda
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Formula One's first race in Formula One.
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So he was really good.
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Impatient.
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Could have been drunk, I'm not sure, but we're doing really well and I was
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picking up my lap times and everything.
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About three o'clock in the morning, the left front wheel came off
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the car while I was driving.
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Everybody said at that point it was just lucky that the left front wheel came
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off 'cause it was the right front wheel.
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I'd probably be in Pompano Beach right now.
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At that point there was at Daytona, there was no lights.
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I mean there's some lights on the track.
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But not a lot of light, not like the infield is now or anything like that.
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So there's sparks and I went into the infield and then I walked back
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across the grass into the pits.
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Mr. Cane looked at me and said, where's the car?
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And I was going, uh, well, it's over there.
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What happened?
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I said, well, the wheel came off.
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And he says to me, just dead serious, the steering wheel or the tire?
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I said, Mr. Kade, it was a tire.
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The wheel.
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Okay.
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Go sit over there.
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And at that point, Dan Gurney, my hero was racing a five 12
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s 1970 with Chuck Parsons.
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I go back into the pits and I'm sitting there and Dan comes in and
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I'd met him really for the first time.
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He was a very big man.
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I mean, he was huge, but he also had huge hands.
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And I remember I came into the pits.
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And he was pissed.
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The door of the five 12 flew open the whole shift, along with the shift
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knob itself came flying into the pits.
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And I mean, I saw it coming and ducked, almost yelled grenade, and
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this thing, bang, smashed everything.
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He said something, I don't remember what it was, and he gets out of the
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car and then Parsons goes, looks in and says, well, it's screwed.
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He had ripped the whole shift, linkage everything out of the car.
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So that was the first time I got to meet Dan Gurney.
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So let's fast forward a little bit.
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So you finally get to lamont behind the wheel of a Ferrari five 12 long tail.
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And you told me a story earlier that I think the crowd would really enjoy,
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which was your story about Pedro Rodriguez down the straightaway.
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So you wanna share that with them?
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I think it's a fun little anecdote.
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So Pedro Rodriguez was my driving instructor when I was getting my license.
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But, and that was when, I think I was 16 years old, or 17, I guess,
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you know, because I would go up with Connet, go up to Elkhart Lake,
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and he would be racing for Connet in the Canam and stuff like that.
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And I got to know him.
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He was great.
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I mean, he was intense.
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Would call me gringo.
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I was, when I say a piece of work, really a piece of work.
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But he was very, very good.
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And so when I raced at Daytona.
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Pedro had called me over.
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I saw him, he introduced me to John Wire.
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That's how I met John Wire.
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There's, anyway, there's kind of famous picture of me sitting there
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and kind of looking down at him and he's looking up at me and he's has
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his hands together and sort of like explaining stuff to me and what he
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was saying was, you stay green, go.
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In your lane?
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I pass.
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I pass, I pass.
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So that was Pedro at Le Mansr in 1970.
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I was driving a five 12 long tail.
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The same way that this car is, this is nine 17.
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Obviously it was a five 12 s, but a long tail and.
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It was raining, it was pissing with rain, and unlike this car re decided it would be
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really cool to put the rear view mirror up above your head and then cut a hole in the
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back so that you would look in the roof.
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The theory was you could look up and see this behind you.
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Well, that was all great.
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Except it was raining, so all of the water was coming in.
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The wind wiper was at that point, difficult Ferrari.
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It was going like mad, but it was like three inches off the windshield
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because of the aerodynamics.
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So it was going crazy.
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I'm looking down, all the water's going and the battery's over here.
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I don't think, oh, this is just great.
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And so I'm going down the Mulan, which at that point was four point.
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Eight miles.
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Very daunting.
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The first time you do it, you are watching your RPM and it's up where
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it's supposed to be, but it just goes on and on and on and on, you know?
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And you hear every little bit of noise, everything.
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And the thing is screaming at speeds of an excess of 230 miles an hour.
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Yeah.
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I was doing 2 28, Pedro was doing 2 37.
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So it's raining, as I said, and the reason they call it the Mosan Strait is
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the town of Mosan is down at the end.
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If you just went straight, you go right through the town.
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Well then there's a hard right corner at the end.
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I'm going down and I'm thinking at this point I. There's no human alive
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that's going as fast as I am because I was gripping the wheel like you're,
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you're not supposed to be doing.
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I was rigid and I was talking to myself saying, I have the wheel straight.
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I'm not moving.
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And the car was aquaplaning and it was like, and so I'm looking
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through, this would be rear view mirror and I see these blinking
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lights, you know, they're coming in.
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I'm thinking, what the hell?
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And so they come up closer and I see it's a golf Porsche.
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I. And it comes up and here's little Pedro.
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It's like down like this.
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And as he drives by, he goes and just motors right by me.
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So I don't know if you've ever been kicked in the nuts before,
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but that's what I felt like and so I'm wasn't supposed to say that.
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You're good.
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Okay.
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I lost about, I don't know, 500 RPMI come into the pits, it's rained fog.
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Gary's there going, and the Italians are going like this.
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And I pull in and I tell Fogger he was the engineer and the team manager
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and everything else that it was having a problem with the gearbox.
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I was jumping out at fifth unless I was on it all the time.
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So I told him, it's a cambio, you know that?
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And Mr.
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K's sitting there with his stupid looking hat on.
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It's a rain hat kind of.
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And looked, he looked like cso, honestly.
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I mean, I loved the guy, but he looked like Inspector cso, the,
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and he had this beige aqua raincoat on, and he's sitting there and you
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know, I mean, I never understood the Italian aristocracy, whether it
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was Ferrari or whether it was Kitty.
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At Alpha, they wear a belt and suspenders, which never understood, never do.
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But anyway, so the theory was, and I come over to him.
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And I go, yes.
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And he looks at me, he looks at me in the eyes, and then he
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grabs me By the, your collar?
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Yeah.
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On my driving suit.
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And pulls me really close about this far and he looks at me in
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the eyes and he goes, Pedro.
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And I go, and then he just walks over.
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So that was, that was Pedro.
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And this car was racing at the same time.
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We're gonna get more into this car as we go along.
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Yeah.
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So after your whole adventure at Ferrari, which was a beautiful relationship
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that you had, especially being an authorized dealer here in the States,
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and it motivated you to acquire Mirage, what was the impetus for that decision?
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What made you get involved in that?
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Going from driver to now team owner, what did you envision for Mirage's future?
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I did go to law school.
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I did graduate and I also got my master's in constitutional law and
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then reality set in, and I had to go work at a law firm, which was a huge
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law firm in downtown Chicago called Baker McKinsey, which is a gigantic law
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firm, and that was definitely no fun.
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It was reality and everything you've heard about Chicago is true.
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And I was a constitutional lawyer and I'd just come back in the military and they
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were saying, well, you've gotta represent this Alderman and Alderman in Chicago.
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It's a fiefdom.
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So you got eight different areas in Chicago, all downtown, and they're
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supposed to represent this group of, uh, eight blocks, 10 blocks.
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Well, at the same time, they were holding up all of the store owners
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for protection, and I was supposed to be representing this guy well.
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I told him I wasn't gonna do that.
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So I just couldn't see myself practicing law for the next 20 years
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or 30 years and call up Mr. Connet and I said, I can't do this anymore.
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And he said, okay, probably I have to talk to Ferrari.
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Okay.
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I. He talked to Ferrari and they said, we'll give you a dealership, but it has
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to be west of the Mississippi River.
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Well, I'd gone east to get my master's in constitutional law and
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I didn't like the weather there.
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I hated Chicago weather, snow, and all that stuff.
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So I looked, and California was definitely out of the question.
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So I looked at Arizona, I thought.
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This is great.
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It's got fantastic airport, international.
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There's nobody living there.
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It's got roads you can go crazy on.
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And so I said I'd like to have Arizona.
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So he gave me Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico.
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And then the other thing that they did, which was fantastic was
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they knew that I didn't have any money to speak of Ferrari and kti.
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Funded me for the first three years.
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In other words, paid my floor plan.
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They would send the cars out and then I would sell them and everything like that.
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So we're done with Ferrari?
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Mm-hmm.
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Okay.
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During that time, I continued to race for cnet, and as I said, Pedro
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Rodriguez, my driving instructor, he had introduced me to John Wire.
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But all during this time, I'd never got to physically see the golf
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team cars, the GT forties running.
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Actually the first time I saw 10 75, which is the first Double Le Mans winning car.
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It won in 1968 and 69 68.
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It won with Pedro Rodriguez, uh, and in 69 it was Jackie Icks, which ended
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up to be the closest race and most famous race at the 24 hours of LeMans.
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So this was the car.
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Knew Derrick Bell by that point really, really well.
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And so he had been racing mirage and after the 68, 69, he was racing for Ferrari.
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Then in 1970, the FIA came out with his formula.
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It was a five year formula and you had to make 25 cars.
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Porsche made 25 cars.
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Ferrari made 25 cars, but that was Ferrari because the last eight cars,
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the tires were wood and there was, you know, it was Ferrari and Porsche
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of course had everything down.
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So that's how that happened.
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And so it just continued to flow.
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And when I, I. Who was still racing for Ferrari.
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John Wire had called, I mean, I respected the heck out of him just
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because he, he approached Le Mansr the way that you should approach it.
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You've got to be able to manage your drivers, but wire was just a master.
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Ferrari could never figure it out.
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John made sure that the drivers stayed within maybe a second.
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Every lap, and they could go faster, but they were never allowed to go faster.
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They had to stay each of them.
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And that was because you would build up enough time that when
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you made a pit stop and you had to fix something, you had 20 minutes.
19:28
Or 30 minutes, you wouldn't lose the lead.
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And that happened when he won Le Mans, he won the World Championship for Porsche.
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He won the World Championship for Ford.
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When Ford didn't do it, you know, with the GT forties, he was a
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master tactician, but he kept to an absolute, this is the way you do it.
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And I learned from that and he was my mentor as far as learning
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how to manage a car, manage drivers and everything like that.
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So John called and said, Harley Gulf Oil, you all don't remember, but maybe you do.
20:01
They got into a lot of problems along with Texaco, with the US
20:05
government because they were going down to South America, both of them.
20:11
And paying off their oil ministers, whatever country
20:14
it was for drilling rights.
20:16
And that was a big no-no.
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So TCO was less, but apparently Gulf Oil was pretty blatant about it.
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So their lawyers said.
20:26
To them, you've gotta go low profile.
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Well, it's kind of hard to go low profile when you've got a baby blue, an orange
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race car, and you're also sponsoring all the tennis tournaments in the United
20:37
States, and you're also sponsoring all the golf tournaments in the United States.
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So John said, well, they have to sell the team in the cars.
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Okay, well that's cool.
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That's really cool.
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You need to buy 'em.
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I said, well, John, and at that point he was in grass in France.
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He had just retired.
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And so this was the longest phone call.
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And I said, well, John, I'm thinking to myself, are you kidding me?
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And, and I said, no, that's great.
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Thank you so much.
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I, it is a real compliment, but John, I, I just, I don't have the experience.
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Yes, you do.
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Well, I don't have that sort of money.
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Yes, you do.
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Oh, I don't, I don't think I do.
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And so this went back and forth.
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I said, I don't wanna embarrass you and I don't wanna embarrass myself.
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He said.
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Just make the bloody offer a lot more colorful.
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I said, okay, if I go and I call these people and I buy it, I'm not gonna buy it
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unless you promise that you will consult.
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And he said, absolutely, I'll be there.
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And then John Horsman said, I'll move to the United States.
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And I said, okay.
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So I called up gentleman, I was supposed to call.
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And I said, Mr. I think his name's Kelsey.
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Mrs. Harley Collection.
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Oh, yes, Mr. Collection.
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We were looking forward to your calling.
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How much are you offering?
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And this was the whole team.
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That was all of the trademark rights.
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That was all of the equipment.
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Two race cars.
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Ready to go a transporter, which we named the Queen Mary.
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I think three mechanics were thrown into it.
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And John Horsman.
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So I offered ridiculous amount of money.
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50 bucks I heard.
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Yeah.
22:04
Well no, 75.
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That was ridiculous.
22:08
It was, I think it was $200,000.
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No, maybe it was 120 in 1970s dollars.
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Yeah.
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$75. Yeah.
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So I buy, Mirage came.
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I was racing at Le Mans in 1975 for Mr. Connet.
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I'm there with five cars.
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Kennedy has basically representing the factory because that 75 was going
22:30
to be a fuel run, so you had to have these cars yet the most fuel efficient.
22:35
In other words, what they did was they cut down a 60 gallon fuel tank
22:39
down to 40 gallons and cars had to go slower, which meant also it had
22:44
to be more aerodynamically efficient.
22:46
And you could stretch the mileage and still keep the speed up with Connet.
22:52
He didn't have any of these prototypes or the Group six cars, which the Mirage
22:57
were, he was racing 365 boxer and three day tos, and I was in a 3 0 8 GT four.
23:07
And so he got into a real contest with one of the a CO supervisors, I
23:13
should say, uh, a technical inspection.
23:16
And they had put the 3 0 8 GT four in group five, which is a 9 35 Porsche,
23:23
and he said, that's impossible because they've made enough cars.
23:25
Now, this Frenchman said, well, Ferrari never notified us of that.
23:31
And Kennet went, well, I can get him to notify you right now.
23:34
And he said, no, it's too late.
23:35
You can't race the car.
23:36
You can't race it in this.
23:37
So he said, if I can't race this car, then I'm gonna pull the cars.
23:41
Well, it got ugly.
23:42
Kennet finally said, well, I'm gonna pull all the cars.
23:45
And the Frenchman said.
23:46
You do it.
23:47
So he pulled all the cars.
23:48
I went to Mr. Canadian, I said, can I go over to the Mirage team?
23:52
And he said, yeah, go, go, go.
23:54
And so I was over in my Ferri driving suit and then they won the 24 hours of Loma.
24:00
That was where then I brought 'em home.
24:03
I. So that's a very important point that you bring up because this weekend
24:06
coincides with the 50th anniversary of the Mirage GR Eights, finishing the 1975
24:12
Le Mans, which you just mentioned winning.
24:13
And there's some other notable stats here that you shared with me.
24:16
So six time Le Mans winner Jackie Hicks behind the wheel, a
24:19
second win and five time winner.
24:21
Derrick.
24:21
Bell, first time Winford, Joad, et cetera.
24:25
There's a whole list of famous names at Mirage at this point, and
24:29
you're joining the team and you're getting more and more involved.
24:31
Everybody that is famous in your mind drove for John Wire and
24:36
he, he was called Death Ray.
24:38
He would talk to his drivers and they had to be absolutely loyal.
24:42
And when I say loyal, because he would go and he never did it to me.
24:47
But I could see how he could do it.
24:48
He would go and when they, he was giving a driver test for a potential
24:53
team driver, and it would be at Brand's Hatch, it could be at Silverstone,
24:56
and he would be hiding in the bushes.
24:59
And I swear to God, Vern Schoen told me that, and he's Australian,
25:04
so he's really colorful language.
25:06
And he said, I was going, I, and I screwed it up.
25:09
And I looked up and there was death Ray looking at me.
25:11
And at that point, again, was important to remember.
25:14
That when I drove the 24 hours of Le Mans and when Mario, who drove for
25:19
me, drove the 24 hours of Le Mans in 82, it was the old 24 hours of Le Mans.
25:25
You only had two drivers.
25:26
Now you have three drivers, and it's a sprint because.
25:29
The course has been cut up and you've got so many chicanes have been put in
25:34
and you never get up to a lot of speed.
25:36
They did it for safety, apparently, and then you stay involved, like you said,
25:40
through the seventies, into the eighties with Mario Andretti and things like that.
25:43
So let's talk about your time as a team owner.
25:46
What sticks out and stands out to you as some of the memorable moments at Mirage?
25:51
Learning from John Wire, all of the drivers loved him and respected him.
25:55
He was such a figure.
25:57
It was Mr. Wire, it was this that, you know, and always, and
26:00
it was baffled me how I ever got into that position with him.
26:04
I brought him to Scottsdale and he was just world of knowledge.
26:08
And so basically the deal was with John and John.
26:12
I said, I'll get the sponsorship.
26:14
You run the cars, and that was the deal.
26:17
75. Last time you drove at Le Mans, did you retire from Motorsport
26:20
at that point as a driver?
26:21
Yes.
26:22
Okay.
26:22
So full-time team owner in that.
26:24
So when you reflect back on Mirage's legacy and all the time you spent
26:29
there, how did that change you?
26:30
You mean as far as the way I look at the French?
26:32
Well, how you look at Motorsport, right?
26:34
Because it's a different lens when you're a team owner and a team
26:36
principal versus being a driver, right?
26:38
Yeah.
26:39
More politics.
26:40
More bureaucracy, more to do more, more, more.
26:43
Well, I think.
26:44
Having driven there and been a driver.
26:46
Going back to Le Mansr, it's a love hate relationship and I mean really hate and
26:51
whoever the twisted, really demented, A CO member that came up with said,
26:58
okay, well we have 12 hour races.
27:00
Why don't we have a 24 hour race?
27:02
I know so many Americans that.
27:04
Have been looking for this jerks grave just to beat it to death
27:09
because it's, it's one of those deals you just keep on going 'cause
27:12
it's heartbreak until the very last.
27:15
You never know.
27:15
We were leading the 79 race up until the 23rd hour.
27:20
Again, it was pissing vein and we fell out.
27:22
Derek was driving for me then.
27:24
And the 9 36 s, which were my nemesis because we'd won in 75 and
27:31
I came in second in 76 behind them.
27:35
And then 77, I thought I was really gonna get 'em.
27:37
'cause we were using rno.
27:38
Turbocharge Miller came in second again, and that was the second most famous race.
27:43
That's when.
27:44
Went crazy and drove with Ley Haywood.
27:47
Yeah, yeah.
27:47
All that stuff, and UroGen bath and all that continued.
27:50
And then with Le Mans, it's a real sickness.
27:53
It really is, because if you go and you're a team owner or a driver, you
27:58
just pray that if you're gonna fall out, you fall out in the first two hours,
28:02
three hours, because it just sucks to fall out at four o'clock in the morning,
28:07
or just when the sun's coming up.
28:08
There are things that John.
28:11
Would expect of his drivers.
28:12
You will do this, you will do that.
28:14
Your pit stops are gonna be this, and if there's a screw up.
28:17
And so he was the first manager, I guess you would say, and he's a legend
28:21
of Le Mans that would take notes and I have all of his notes, everything.
28:26
And take the time it took in the pits, each car in each driver, and then figure
28:32
out, came in with a broken whatever and how long it was in the pits.
28:36
Also the growth of the tires, you know, which is a big deal.
28:40
'cause if you're doing 235 miles an hour, the tires grow.
28:44
That lifts the car up and then it gets really ly, you know?
28:47
And so it was all of that stuff and the pit stops were down.
28:51
I. To half seconds fueling everything and then the drivers comparison every lap.
28:57
And you drivers are drivers.
28:59
So, so anyway, I, I learned all of that and I learned race management,
29:04
which is hugely important to be able to manage everything to make
29:08
sure that you've built up enough.
29:11
Reserve time with your lap times that you've set that you can repair something.
29:17
'cause the cars were always breaking.
29:19
Unlike today that's going on right now.
29:22
It's a sprint race.
29:23
You have the Mulan, but then you have two of these Chicanes and I doubt
29:28
the hypercar are getting up to two hundred and ten, two hundred fifteen.
29:32
I mean Porsche's.
29:33
This Porsche was actually the 1971 Porsche Long Tail, which Laro was driving.
29:39
Gerard Laro was driving this car too.
29:41
248 miles an hour every lap at night.
29:46
That's impressive.
29:47
With your legs hanging out up by the lights, legs short now, but
29:52
that's, I, it's, I impressive.
29:54
Well, since you mentioned it, and we promised the audience that we
29:56
would talk more about this car, so you got involved in this car,
29:59
you competed against this car.
30:01
You talked about your racing against Pedro Rodriguez in the Ferraris and whatnot.
30:04
How did you get involved?
30:06
In the hippie Porsche, how did you come to own this car and and what drew you to it?
30:10
This was a two year deal.
30:11
It's 25 cars, 70 and 71.
30:14
It went to a new formula, which was group six, and that turned
30:19
into, it had to be a three liter formula one motor, and you could.
30:24
Do it open.
30:25
You could do a close, but it had to be a three liter formula, one
30:29
base motor before through 1967.
30:33
It was bringing you grace, what you belong.
30:35
Anyway, Ford of course, brought 550 horsepower.
30:40
Ferrari was 475 horsepower in the P fours or less.
30:45
But that was a difference in mm-hmm.
30:47
What, what we were doing.
30:48
So my love for Porsches, I mean, I can tell you everything about the tail
30:53
end of a 9 36 or one of these things.
30:56
So he motivated me.
30:58
Yeah.
30:58
You acquired this car, you had it in your possession for a while.
31:01
Did you ever get to turn a lap in this car?
31:03
And what was it like compared to the Ferraris that you drove?
31:06
John Wire had told me and Horsman also, you know, because I always
31:10
looked at the five twelves as clunkers compared to these Porsche and John
31:14
Wire said they were built better.
31:16
The Germans didn't really care about the drivers, they were expendable.
31:20
And he said the Mray, which was the 1971 car, was actually pretty good.
31:25
He said, but Ferrari decided, which they did 'cause it was the end of
31:29
the last year, they didn't develop.
31:31
The only thing I did was I pretty well known for this piece of, again, it's
31:35
Arizona had a very good relationship with the um, Scottsdale Airport management.
31:41
'cause I also, I. Fly helicopters.
31:43
So I knew them and I asked them all along the way, can I test a car on the runway?
31:48
And I said, yeah, sure, no problem.
31:50
So I tested Formula One cars and everything like that.
31:52
Well, I went out in this car, we just painted it.
31:55
It was everything that I had heard from John Wire about Your feet are
32:00
hanging out in front of the wheels.
32:03
It all came back to me because as I accelerated, first of
32:06
all, you know, I'm short.
32:08
The visual, you know, your site picture, you know, you usually
32:11
go off the front vendors, stuff like that, or a visual point.
32:16
Well, there's nothing.
32:17
The way that it's this windshield is that you can really get a visual
32:21
shot at what you're aiming at.
32:23
But more than that was, I don't think I was doing 60 miles an hour
32:27
starting South airport runways.
32:29
I don't know if you've ever been on one, but.
32:30
They're not like roads.
32:32
They're usually cement and stuff.
32:33
So you go, boom, boom.
32:35
I was getting so much wind through the cockpit, through the foot
32:40
well, and I was getting dust.
32:42
I was getting everything else, and it was like my feet were that far
32:45
out and I could feel through my driving shoes, I could feel coming up.
32:49
It was air.
32:50
And that is not a good feeling you wanna have, knowing that the
32:54
first thing you're gonna hit if you go in nose first is your feet.
32:58
That was what was really lethal with a lot of drivers and then also the
33:03
fuel deal, so to say, if I got up to a hundred miles an hour, I doubt it.
33:08
I doubt it incredibly fast cars.
33:10
But I mean, if you made a mistake or somebody made a mistake for you, guy in
33:15
front of you, whatever, lethal, no bueno.
33:18
Getting into our final segment here, let's talk a little bit about the future.
33:21
So for those of you sitting in the audience, you're here watching
33:24
Le Mans as part of the viewing party in a couple of weeks.
33:27
The Le Mans Classic is happening, that's 24 hours of vintage cars.
33:30
Harley.
33:31
Do you see Mirage participating in the classic in the future?
33:34
And if so, will you be involved?
33:35
Well, they, they already have, they've won the GR Sevens, which is the Golf racing
33:40
Sevens, so that would be a 1974 car.
33:43
We have of the two, there's the number 10 car that came in second,
33:48
two times well came in third was Schoen driving in the 1975 Le Mans.
33:54
And then second overall is now racing.
33:58
Uh, Le Mans Classic.
33:59
And the 74 car has won the Lamont Classic three times.
34:05
So it's a golf Mirage with a Cosworth motor.
34:08
So yes, they're very, very good.
34:10
And the great thing about it is that when you go to the classic,
34:14
you'll see all of these cars.
34:16
You won't see the nine seventeens that much.
34:18
I mean, the last time I think that a nine 17 race there was
34:21
with Bobby Ra Hall race of nine 17 that he owned with Brian Redmond.
34:27
Mm-hmm.
34:27
And they had exactly the same problem that wire had with his nine seventeens.
34:33
With the aerodynamic changes that the inner wheel bearings when
34:38
you're running it to get really hot.
34:40
And then they seize and wheels come flying off.
34:43
Yeah.
34:43
That or youth go flying off.
34:45
And so they were apparently arguing with each other and, and to stop.
34:49
And it was smart enough, mature enough I guess you'd say.
34:52
Say now let's do this again.
34:53
So if you ever look at Brian Redmond, you see, you know, he's got all of these
34:58
wrinkles around, was baklava, you wear ba I should say not the Greek food.
35:04
Sorry.
35:05
And it's burned.
35:07
And that was in a 9 0 8.
35:08
Porsche winning the Target Florio in 19.
35:12
He ran it in 1973 and I think maybe it was 1974.
35:17
Same car.
35:18
The car was upside down, crashed, and he was caught fuel tank burst and he was
35:25
caught on fire and he was able to crawl out because there was, this is a target
35:29
Florida, nobody came for 35 minutes, so that's why they don't do that anymore.
35:34
But I'm just saying how dangerous these cars are.
35:37
Pedro died in a five 12.
35:39
Mm-hmm.
35:39
Same deal.
35:40
So the Le Mansr Classic, you know, in talking with really great guy Chris
35:45
McAllister, who has a nine 17 Porsche that has a golf car and God knows what
35:49
else he drives it just the way it was.
35:52
That's the cool thing about the Le Mansr Classic.
35:54
You're gonna see real cars out there.
35:56
You'd never see any other place driving at Le Mans.
36:00
So it, it is really exciting, it's really fun.
36:02
And as Gerard Roos told me when he brought me back after I promised I'd never go
36:07
back to Le Mans after Le Mans E two and he called up You, you've gotta come back,
36:12
make you, I don't remember number one.
36:14
And I thought it was gonna be another dim.
36:16
And I told him that.
36:17
And he said, no, no, no, it's okay.
36:18
It's okay.
36:19
So I came back and I hadn't been to Le Mansr and this was 2011.
36:23
He came back and he said, I have to warn you, the track has changed.
36:27
And I said, okay.
36:28
For the good or bad, he said, it's really bad.
36:31
It's really bad.
36:32
It's really bad.
36:33
I. And then I went and I watched, it was like really bad.
36:36
Really bad.
36:37
Just because, you know, it was the most difficult road race in the world.
36:40
Now it's a sprint race.
36:42
Mm-hmm.
36:42
You know, I mean, you've lost so many factors that went into it
36:46
that make it the most difficult and the race for manufacturers to win.
36:51
Well, I guess we'll give that to the Bergen 24 now, right?
36:55
Yeah.
36:56
Oh, the old spa.
36:57
Yeah.
36:58
Yeah.
36:58
All right, so let's talk about Le Mans.
37:00
We're here, we're watching the race.
37:01
Are you rooting for Ferrari?
37:03
Do you have any other projections?
37:04
I think it's great that Ferrari won and they did, and knowing Ferrari as I do,
37:09
and I'm sure that you all know enough that know that there F1 team is hopeless.
37:14
Um, nobody was allowed to work.
37:18
None of the engineers, none of the F went in.
37:20
No, no.
37:21
Uhuh You guys just continued to screw your things up over and there.
37:24
So this was all done by Alpha Corso and so, which is, I guess
37:30
you'd say a semi factory team.
37:32
Delara built the car and then a of course.
37:36
So working, driving and all these team, and they won in
37:40
last year and the year before.
37:42
And this year they're having a, a tough time.
37:44
I think.
37:45
I'm just surprised.
37:46
Penske hasn't won.
37:47
Uh, they've got four cars and it's a very, very difficult formula because
37:53
the only thing that a manufacturer has is that you have three chassis choices.
37:58
You have Multimatic, you have Dara.
38:02
Cadillac has picked Dara.
38:04
BMW has Dara.
38:06
Porsche has Multimatic, which is of course in Canada.
38:10
And then all you do is you put your motor in.
38:15
Everybody has the same transmissions.
38:17
You can do aerodynamically comes from Dara, or you can have your design guy,
38:23
you know, as long as it meets that spec.
38:25
Well, you know, this hybrid stuff, it's just, it's so expensive and
38:30
I think, you know, to answer your question, who do I want to win?
38:33
I'd love to see ASIN Martin win only because no one is that the
38:38
whole team is in Arizona and it's a normally aspirated car.
38:42
It's a 6.4 liter, 12 cylinder.
38:45
How bad is that?
38:46
But of course then you have to dumb it down to 580 horsepower or whatever it is.
38:51
And there are too many regulations as far as if you have one
38:56
team win, whether it's in.
38:59
GT three or hypercar, if they win like three years in a row, well then they
39:04
get this BOP selectively served on 'em.
39:07
Mm-hmm.
39:07
So Ray Hall's had it happen.
39:09
So it's a very difficult formula to understand.
39:12
I don't like it.
39:14
What can I tell you?
39:15
I mean, we have it.
39:16
We have it in Indy car, and it's just a joke.
39:18
I'll give you an example with these hypercar, as they call 'em, the drive
39:23
shafts have torque meters on 'em, and the torque meter is to make sure that
39:28
you're putting out 528 horsepower.
39:31
Well, that's really great.
39:32
But if you go off the road, this torque meter, one wheel is gonna go crazy.
39:38
Well, what happens is they have home base, and so they'll sit there and the minute
39:42
they see it, they go, and you lose 200 horsepower on the street, gimme a break.
39:47
Let's go racing.
39:48
So that's my opinion on it.
39:50
All right.
39:51
Well, Harley, last question.
39:52
What's next for you?
39:54
You're still very much involved in Motorsport.
39:56
What's next?
39:57
Anything coming up you wanna share?
39:58
No, I'm just desperately looking for fun.
40:01
Oh yeah.
40:03
No, it's, um, I like vintage racing.
40:05
It's really fun, but you get to the age where you're not as good as you think
40:11
you should be, or wanna admit, and I'm, I'm there, you know, and so I have fun.
40:16
Now, if I go and buy an Alpha GTA.
40:19
And you go out and smoke Porsches all day, you know, or a cobra or
40:22
something that, you know, that's great.
40:23
Vintage racing for me should be, or any professional driver, you should
40:27
be able to take a black and white picture of that car that you're, you're
40:30
driving, and then take a pick of black and white picture of you driving.
40:34
And if it isn't all twisted up and one wheel up, you know you're cheating.
40:38
Because it, that's the way that the cars were.
40:40
Well, on that note, folks, we've had the privilege of revisiting a fascinating
40:44
chapter in endurance racing history through the experiences of Harley
40:48
Clarkston from taking the reins of the Mirage team after golf oil's exit, and
40:52
guiding them through a remarkable run of successes at Le Mans, including the win
40:56
in 75 and podium finishes in 76 and 77.
40:59
Harley's vision and leadership helped.
41:01
Preserve one of the sport's most iconic privateer efforts.
41:05
His dedication not only extended the Mirage legacy, but also
41:09
embodied the entrepreneurial spirit that defines motorsports.
41:12
Golden age.
41:14
God.
41:14
I love him.
41:15
I love him.
41:15
I know, right?
41:15
I absolutely love it.
41:17
With that, we hope you enjoyed this presentation and look forward
41:20
to more evening with a legend throughout the season, and on behalf
41:23
of everyone here, the A-C-O-U-S-A and those listening at home.
41:27
Listening at home, what?
41:28
You never told me that.
41:29
Oh yeah.
41:29
Thank you, Harley.
41:30
Oh God.
41:35
And that's a wrap.
41:38
Thank you.
41:50
This episode has been brought to you by the Automobile Club of the West and
41:54
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