Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #40-Tom Braden

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Episode #40-Tom Braden · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, good morning, Don.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: How is it on uh your side of the island this morning?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning, Greg.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: A uh beautiful morning.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's cooler, uh, probably around 80 degrees.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I listened to our podcast as I was walking Cali this morning, and uh the podcast that just dropped uh was Sharon Strauss.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, incredible using arch.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Incredible.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, um that and it just got me excited to want to talk to Tom this morning too.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely, you know, on that whole topic, uh, when you're talking about Sharon Strauss, I was talking to another dad who lost a child this week, and he was sharing on my uh your dad forever call that um he has got probably a hundred paintings around the house.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: He just picked up and just started painting.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, man, I want you to listen to this podcast.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't think sometimes people understand how they put their grief into actions or things or emotions, and they just do what comes natural to them.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's kind of cool to hear that as an afterthought.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: So all right, well, we're excited to have Tom Braden with us.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Tom hails from Marlboro Falls, Texas.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he is a retired uh football coach.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Everything is bigger down in Texas.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, football is one of those things that is just huge uh down there.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I got a chance to meet Tom at a TAPS tragedy assistance program for survivors, uh dealing with the military loss.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, a TAPS parents retreat in Austin, Texas, several years back.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we just really hit it off.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: We sat at the same table and just kind of uh got a chance to know each other.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: And since then we've stayed in touch.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I just really appreciate his heart.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I invited him to come on today, and we're just going to kind of give him the floor.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he lost, he's coming up on 10 years of losing his son Jeff.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh his son Jeff was an F-22 Raptor pilot, and um he uh drowned uh almost 10 years ago.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, Tom, welcome.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna let you kind of start off just kind of introducing yourself, telling us about your journey, where it all, when it started 10 years ago, and obviously, in the time that we're on this podcast, we're gonna just really turn this into uh how you have experienced growth uh through your grief.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to thank you, Greg, and Don, you as well for giving me this opportunity because that is part of what I feel uh the healing process that uh that I go through is just being able to talk about Jeff and then be able to to uh to uh to to speak these words because you know you just there comes a point in time when people really uh as you guys well know, um, you know, they're they're tired of talking about it.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and I'm never tired of talking about it.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: But uh anyway, uh so uh just so you know, just to give you a little bit of background, uh Laura and I will have been married 50 years this next year.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: We've got three daughters, um the oldest being the 40, getting ready to turn uh 46, and then uh Jeff would have been um um around 38, 39, something like that.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, it's uh Jeff was the youngest.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Jeff was the youngest, yeah.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: He was the only son.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and of course they're spread out all over the place.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh got a daughter that lives in um Chicago, got one that lives in Seattle, north of Seattle on Whidby Island.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Got another daughter that uh just moved from Hawaii just to Tacoma to be a little bit closer to her sister, and then uh Jeff's widow and uh her family live in uh San Antonio.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and and we just got off uh also, um which is the reason I'm a little bit uh uh sounding a little bit uh is the fact that we just had cousins camp and then we had a reunion, uh, which is also all of this this uh this healing that we uh are enabled to do.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, we cousins camp, we have all the grandkids here at our house, and we have them for a week.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then what we do is we turn around uh after that and we go on a um we have a reunion with our girls and Jeff's widow and their families, and we spend another week.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So for the last two weeks we've been running.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but anyway, to talk about Jeff, um yeah, um this all started on September the 23rd of uh 2016.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we were when Laura and I have referred to this in the past, it's pretty much been, you know, we were just um you know, this this was this was this was an event that really uh took us into the wilderness, if you will.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's for the longest time I think we were both kind of just real foggy and and uh not really um uh there are there are a lot of things that I wasn't able to recount until afterwards, after I kind of reflected back on it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: But uh that morning at uh 4 30 in the morning is when we got this call about Jeff.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Jeff was over in uh Guam, and they were um um uh carrying out um Valiant Shield, which is some war games they do over there, and they had had a day off because of the weather.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: They were essentially finished, and they all went out and um they were scuba diving and snorkeling, and he was snorkeling.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um we come to find out later that he was actually buddy breathing with another um one of the pilots and um had an embolism and uh he drowned out there.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but um and you know, we could go into um you know, where we maybe felt like that the military had some uh responsibility in that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: I also uh I also understand who Jeff was.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I never let that get in the way of um the uh the law that loss really.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um now I I say that just to say that Laura and I were we may have been uh we may have been on the same um going through the same journey, but I'm gonna tell you we were on two totally different paths.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I mean it wasn't even um um it it you know I think a lot of times all of us that have had kids, if you've got more than one, you realize even though you can be in the same environment for a long time and they can grow up with the same parents, that doesn't mean that they're gonna be the same kid.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh this is exactly what was happening with us.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um Laura could see this from a totally different perspective.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh, you know, Greg, you had mentioned earlier about our faith, and and and and I'm only gonna say this because this play, this experience that I'm gonna kind of recount for you, has everything to do with the healing process that I had.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna tell you, it wasn't the same for Laura.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: But um from the from the time that all this this occurred at 4 30 in the morning, I'm just gonna tell you a few things that happen.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we wake up, we get a call from Brittany, which is our oldest daughter out in Washington.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: She tells us um we've lost Jeff.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she gives us uh a little bit of uh information about it.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then um I had a meeting that morning that I was having to be at, and it was a church meeting.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I called one of the guys, one of the elders, and I said, Hey, listen, uh, would you mind calling everybody and telling them I'm not gonna be able to be there?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let Gene know, the pastor.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I uh I'm I'm on my way.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to get tickets to Hawaii.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So Laura and I kind of sat in bed for just a few seconds, but we had to get to Hawaii.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, little did we know that night when we went to bed by 10 30 that morning, we would be on a flight.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but right after I made that call, I mean, it was just a matter of uh a few minutes, I get another call.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, do you mind if we come over?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So within 30 minutes, we had somebody at the house that was loving on us.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't like one, we had like seven people.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I I say that also, I'm not really sure that would be exactly what I wanted at that time, but I think as I reflect back on it, I needed that.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And not only did that happen, but um, you know, they were they also had some other things that that they brought.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not only were they loving on us, but one of them provided a ride to the airport for us.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Another one provided some cash.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we didn't have a chance to go to the bank, we didn't have any cash that we were gonna need.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um we had a dog.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody took that dog, you know, one of the couples that came over.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was just um it was just a uh a combination of things that happened very early that I really didn't think about until later.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, little did we know at that point we were starting on what was going to amount to, I believe, a parent's worst nightmare.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because we were just beginning.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: But another thing that comes up is we get this ride to the airport.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: We were we were fortunate enough to get a flight that was a direct flight.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: We were we get to the airport, and who meets us there at the gate that we're gonna be at is our pastor.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: He had just flew in from a flight out on the east coast and had gotten there, and he was there.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: He had access to the um uh the Admiral's club that was just above that gate.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we get there, we go up.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing, we had an opportunity to sit there and pray with him, and he, you know, talked to us and counseled us a little bit.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um then we get on the flight and we don't even have seats together.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, immediately somebody gives us you know the seat to where we're able to sit together.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Laura and I both are uh real big in um uh BSF, Bible study fellowship.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, anyway, I'm not sure if you guys know what that is, but it's a 65-year-old Bible study that's been been going on, it's around the world, it's international.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right across the seat that we're sitting at, there's a teaching leader from BSF that we just happened to see.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: She's opening up her lesson, and she was able to comfort us at this at this point.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um we had another daughter, you know, we had a daughter that's that was living in Hawaii that was living there, so we had a place to stay.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um immediately they were providing meals for us.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um guys, I could go on and on.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I could list about 20 different things that happen really quickly, and of course, I'm still in this fog.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, um, as soon as all of this is over, we have to wait two weeks before we can actually um see Jeff's body.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Jess Jeff was in Guam.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't release it because of the autopsy.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we had two weeks there where we were kind of in a a little bit of a quandary, but uh but the the squadron pretty much took care of us the whole time.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I had a place that I had found um there in Hawaii, there on the beach.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: My my daughter lived in Waikiki.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Laura had to come back a little bit early.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: I found a place that was just a place where I could have some, you know, a time of just reflection.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And also every morning the raptors would fly over.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I could I could I could I could continue with all this.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let me if I if I may, um I just listening to you, uh Tom, and and listening to this story, you had mentioned how faith, you know, has played a huge role.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it is certainly evident just by what occurred, that um, you know, and and you mentioned how you didn't want um to have people come uh at that moment.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: You you probably wanted to be alone, but you needed that, and it and they appeared and they took care of all these things for you that and and you were in a fog, and I know that fog really well.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I remember it very clearly.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what you need, you don't know anything.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And here are all these people showing up for you and and being there for you just at the time that you need them.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh I think that's such a a beautiful story and a beautiful um testament to your faith.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, and that's exactly where I was going, Don, is that you know, it wasn't until we get back and we're asked to speak to some, you know, a group at a church.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And this happened a couple of times, maybe three times.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm trying to decide, well, like what am I what am I gonna say?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: This this is this is really nothing I really care about at this moment.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm reflecting back on what what do I say?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I started thinking about these things, and I I wrote all these things down, and to your statement right there, I realized that you know God was with me.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh since then, I'll just say this.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, I'm not quite the reader uh of these uh books that Laura is.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Laura has probably read every grief book, or you could name it, you know, uh Cooler Ross, um Kessler, Wolfelt, we could go on and on.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so we discuss it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily read the books like she does.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I understand that some of them, you know, are um as psychologists, they want to explain.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate the fact that they try to help you understand the grief process and I and what you're gonna go through, so maybe what you can expect.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for my whole story is that's all good and fine.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I didn't I didn't I don't think I really had that stage of anger like she did.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have that that um that that stage of denial really that she did.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I didn't bargain.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I did I I did accept, I did have some depression.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I still every now and then, you know, I reflect back on I want this time with Jeff now.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's my selfish um desires that that want me to have that want me to have that now.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: But through my faith and through what I believe was not a coincidence, I believe every one of these things that happened, I think God played a role in it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: I can I could throw you, I could throw you some scripture out there, but I'm gonna tell you, I'm not sure, even as strong as our faith is, at the time that all this went down, if you had thrown that at me, I'm not sure I would have thrown it back at you.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I did.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was thrown at me, and uh, you know, it's one of those things we we had a pastor on recently, and and he was talking about how it's not the wisest thing necessarily to just throw a scripture at somebody uh at the beginning.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there's this whole deer in the headlights that you have earlier on.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And Tom, you and I have talked a lot about Jeff, but um the thing that I did notice is your countenance changed um when you started talking about Jeff at the beginning, uh, because it does still hurt.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: It is still raw, it is still real, it never goes away.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I appreciate that about you because it shows your vulnerability and authenticity.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: There was a couple things I wrote down that I just wanted to kind of touch on.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you didn't say this verbatim, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I do I we see it a lot, Don and I, um, and I know you do as well, where there's a uh kind of a need to place blame uh for the loss that you're going through.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: It might be a spouse, it might be a child, it might be a cousin or a sibling, whatever type of loss you might have experienced.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: There tends to be a need to place blame, whether it's an auto accident in the other driver, you know, that might have caused it, whether it's the military, whether it was whatever, um, you know, somebody said a cross word to somebody and therefore they, you know, took their life.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um and, you know, I think that's just part of the process of working through that and learning not to really.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now there is blame to place in a lot of situations and circumstances, so don't get me wrong, uh, with that, but it can add a lot of complexity to it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the other thing I wrote down is there was you already had a support structure in place.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I do believe what you're saying is God really ordained um these God wink moments all along the way for you.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but there was so much that you and Laura had built and invested in others that allowed them to come alongside you.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: I remember the same thing.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I went over to notify my mom that her grandson had uh died.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when I came back, my best friend went with me.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was pulling back to my house, and there's probably 20 cars.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time, I'm like, I just want to be left alone.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I went in and there was probably 15 guys uh that were, you know, uh in my living room just circling me, and they they didn't need to say anything, they didn't need to do anything, they just gave me a hug and just stood there.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't know what you don't know or what you need you know at the time.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there I let me ask you something because at the time of Jeff's death, you were 40 years into your marriage.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, nobody really understands the health of a marriage other than the two spouses.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have witnessed you and Laura together, and I feel like you have a healthy marriage.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um I want you to just comment a little bit on the fact that you were on two different paths on this grief journey.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what does that mean?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: What did that look like for you?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Laura became extremely angry with God real quick.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I don't think you're gonna find uh uh uh a woman that was more faithful or has been more faithful uh than.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: She has been to her God.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that is where I was just the exact opposite.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: During this time, I alluded to the fact that I had this place of solace, this place that I could go to there.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bench there on Waikiki, kind of off by itself.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would sit there and do my Bible lesson each week.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's all I did pretty much the whole time.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I walked around Waikiki, walked around Oahu, and I did this lesson.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Laura, Laura pretty much said, Hey, throughout this, this, this whole process and this marriage, the only thing that I've asked for, God, is for you to just make sure that I die first, that you take care of my kids, blah, blah, blah.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then this happens.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so she she pretty much turned away from God for a little bit.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: She also, and rightfully so, um, she blamed, she blamed the military for some of this.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, Jeff and I were extremely close.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know, you know, I I mean this um this was this was extremely still is hard for me.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I still miss him terribly.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and of course Laura was close to Jeff as well.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, what what ended up happening on that deal is we we get there and I think they were trying to console us.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's not very many F-22 fighter pilots that they lose.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's certainly not in a you know a setting like um Valiant Shield where they were over in Guam.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I they I I don't know that they'd lost one.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the guy that was the uh lieutenant commander, um, you know, he didn't um, or lieutenant colonel, he didn't, he didn't uh I think he was trying to do everything he could.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: So consequently, he tells us the story.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: They go to this elaborate means to bring us in, and and um they show us this diagram of everything that happened on the beach and the waters, and and then we come to find out that's not exactly what happened.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, anytime that you get that kind of information, the next thing you want to do is you want to question, well, what about this?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or what about that?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and maybe they had something to hide that you know we didn't know, and maybe it was the fact that they were able to help, you know, the widow, uh the um his widow, you know, get the benefits they needed.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't it I I I knew Jeff um well enough to know that you know um I mean he he was he wasn't scared of anything.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean he was he would do, you know, if he he he would he he probably played a big role in that.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, Laura saw it a little bit different and still does, and um, I can accept that.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a that's not an issue.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um but so that was part of the path.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what she needed and what I needed were two different things.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I kept uh one of the things that we talked about is you know, you were his mother, I was his dad.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's different.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, oh I could, I could, I could go on and on.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but your relationships uh with Jeff uh were uh between you and he had a relationship, and then Laura and he had a relationship, and they're unique, right?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the grief journey is going to be different and unique.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my uh my son Josh, he he died by suicide, and there were so many questions, um, and you know, no way to get answers.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I I believe um, you know, with you and and Laura, um that the it's the same that you have questions, um, and maybe the answers aren't coming or won't come to you.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but one of the things that I had to learn was what would I do?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if I had the answers, it's not gonna change anything, it's not gonna bring him back.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh I kind of just decided, you know, I could let go, or I can believe whatever it is I want to believe.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if other people want to believe what they want to believe, that works for me too.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, that was the other thing, Don.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um I didn't really need the answers.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't, I don't, I don't have to know everything because I know I don't know everything.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I just honestly, I just trust that you know what?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: The little bit of time that we're here on this earth, this is this is me, the little bit of time that we're here on earth on this earth, I think there's things that happen.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and um, you know, if if God's in control, then you know, I have that hope.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't I'm gonna see him one day, it's just not the same timing that I wanted.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is what I wanted, but it's not always about me.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one thing that you know, we try to teach these grandkids from day one when we were at cousins' camp.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always about you, and so um, no, it's it's it's not about me.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I didn't need the answers because honestly, Don, I could I can go to scripture and I've I have found what I believe is the comfort in knowing that you know the God's in control.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's he he does things that maybe we don't understand, and I don't need to lean on my understanding, I need to lean on his.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I know Laura knows that, and I know she is she has made um you know a 180 from where she was.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, once again, you're not gonna find any more anybody more faithful than she is.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I I had the same experience as Laura.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I had that crisis of faith.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I I pretty much abandoned and almost lost my faith for three years.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I could relate to that.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody is different.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: I remember being out at the graveyard and uh you know, standing next to his headstone, shaking my fist at God and saying, basically, I have done nothing but serve you faithfully, and this is what I get in payment.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's a lot of people that go through that.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Others don't.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's others that just never experience that.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Tom, I wanted to you had uh alluded to this about the different relationship between a mother and a father.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: You had shared a very intimate thought with me one time, and I hope I'm not betraying that by sharing that publicly on this, uh, but I'm gonna go for it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: So um you had shared.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I I love doing that by the way, because all of a sudden this wall goes up, and people are like, Oh my gosh, what's he gonna share?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: But you had he always scares me during this time.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'll share it if I want it, if I don't know.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, exactly.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: But no, you had shared with me um how Jeff was your only boy.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that sometimes you feel like a third wheel when you're with Laura and the girls because you don't get to go do guy things a lot of times.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that has no reflection on the fact you don't love your three daughters, your wife.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I feel the same way a lot of times.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: I walk with my wife and my daughter.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: We walk the dogs every night, and uh my wife and my daughter will just, you know, my my daughter's in social work, my wife's a school teacher, and they deal with a lot of the same families, and they will just have this conversation.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sitting there off to the fray by myself.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about that loss and um what that comment means to you.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you brought that up because that's um that has a lot to do with what I kind of started out with with uh the family.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh what you didn't mention is that Jeff had two, well, Jeff had two kids, had a two-year-old daughter at the time.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Lane was pregnant with um their second child, and it was a boy.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, of course, he was born what maybe four months or so, three or four months after, you know, Jeff was so he never met Jeff.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: He is a clone of my son.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, they had never met, but I'm telling you, they must have talked up in heaven because I'm telling you, the guy is got the same personality.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they never met.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I'll tell you, his widow's family is not um anything like us.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, um, you know, we're very much um we're pretty loud, we're pretty um uh bolstrous, and and I'm telling you, he he's just like us.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's just like us.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, once again, that's not a coincidence.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I believe that, you know, God said, hey, listen, I'm gonna, you're not gonna have this, but I'm gonna give you this.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have been able to spend time, and I will tell you the dynamics of that in itself, that's a that's another thing.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably even harder for me to share the dynamics of of all of the other things that are going on, besides just the loss, um and and everything associated with that.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: There are, you know, sometimes there's a lot of other things going on.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: And life continues.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I'm just talking about, you know, our kids are the uh our three girls are just the absolute three most wonderful.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm gonna tell you, they didn't, they didn't see it like I saw it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, um, I mean, I could go, I could go into that aspect of it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: It it's taken a it's taken a little while.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And here, just over the last probably three or four years, we finally had to, I finally had to.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: What I did is I wrote a letter and I said, hey, listen, we're not gonna let this do this to this family.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm yeah, I'm not gonna let that happen.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not gonna take place.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so they all came down.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I told you, they live in all different parts of the country.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: The three girls came down here and spent, I don't know, three or four days, and we pretty much made a uh a pact.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we're gonna talk about, this is how we're gonna handle it.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna understand that um, you know, maybe what you don't understand.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh not that I came down saying that this is what's gonna happen, but this is what I desire because this is this is not the way it it needs to be.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sure enough, I'm telling you, I know that we're stronger for it, we're a closer family, and you know, it's one thing when you've got um your family that lives right down the street from you.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's something else when you got one that lives, you know, in two different I mean, one was in Hawaii at the time, one was about as far northwest of the United States as you get, and one was in Chicago.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and then with Jeff's widow, his kids were in Hawaii at that time also.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, um it's God has has provided He has He has made all this possible because there's too many things that could have gone off the track real bad.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And would I ever wish this on anybody?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, but I just choose to believe that you know what maybe something else would have happened that would have been worse, and this is the way that God dealt with this.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the way I've that's the way I've accepted it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And because of it, you know, um there's a joy that I think I have in life.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and even though I think I've gone through something that um nobody should ever have to go through, um I'm I'm I'm I'm good.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be that much longer.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Tom, it sounds like you uh you put your football coach uh hat on uh by bringing your your family together for the four days and said, you know, okay, this is this is how we're gonna how we're gonna do this, how we're gonna approach it.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when I think about, and correct me if I'm wrong, because uh I'd never been a football coach.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I have been a father, but I feel like those roles are really similar.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and because you're you're trying to build a family within your team, uh the football team.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um I'm just wondering if there's a pearl of wisdom that that you would uh give your team or your family um or the our listeners um just something to that they can take home and and take with them and say, wow, um that's really helpful.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um gosh, I I'm I'm not I'm not that smart really, you know.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't have all these pearls of of wisdom, but you know, I just know that I I think I mentioned this earlier that you know I can read all the books that a guy can read.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: And on the psychology aspect of it and how to explain what's to what is supposed to be normal and what's to be um you know what's supposed to happen in grief.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but I just know that because of my faith, it has truly provided me a sense of hope.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and as terrible, like I said, as all of this has been, this life on earth is pretty short.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: It won't be long.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be better than I would have ever imagined.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the day that I'm looking for.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I've come to I I I accept it's really not the word.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've come to understand, I think, that you know what, I don't understand everything, and I'm okay.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm okay.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Life is but a fleeting moment.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, I uh I was just sitting here thinking, this is episode 40, Don, that we have recorded.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's it's amazing because we've heard a lot of different stories.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: Some of those you and I have done, you know, solo with each other, but we've had many guests on.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I want our listeners um to hear something from three dads on here, and I'm gonna leave us with this.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we always emphasize turning grief into growth.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I don't want our listeners who are in different stages and different phases of their grief to misunderstand the linear aspect of grief because it's not.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's not this whole aspect of life sucked.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was handed a poo sandwich at the beginning, and now everything is rosy and it's all good, and it's all fine now.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's not that way.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want our listeners to misinterpret.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I'm gonna leave us with this.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, many well, many days I'll sit down the evening in a chair by myself in the corner and I'll mouth four words.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: I miss my boy.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that pretty much sums it up and says it all.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time.