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Taking a Close Look at Anger Solutions with Psychotherapist, Julie Christiansen · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we conscious conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Durgesh.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's Roxanne Derhodge authentic living with Roxanne.
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Thanks for tuning in again.
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Today, I have, Julie, Christianson, with me.
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She is an expert on anger and has done some pretty amazing things from Julie's background,
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she has, she's been a writer.
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She's just told me recently that she's written several books She has a training program on
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anger, and I think anger is something that I I don't think that we openly wanna discuss, but I
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having in Julie on this is a good opportunity for us to really get familiar with those whole
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topics.
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So, Julie, thanks so much for coming on today.
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Thanks for having me, Roxanne.
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So what Julie is in, not too far for me here in Niagara.
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And, so the topic of anger, I, you know, I think there's so many elements to it, and I
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know whether, you know, you're coaching or, you know, by the time you get up in the day, you're
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constantly in contact with people.
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So, unfortunately, there's opportunity or say, ongoing opportunity to to, I call it, you know,
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if only we can kind of know the elements of anger from mild irritation, to explosion, but
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generally, we think the negative about anger, which radiate anger can be quite positive when
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it's channeled in the in the proper way.
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For sure.
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You know?
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So so tell me tell me kinda so your psychotherapist, you speak, you train, She's
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also a clinical supervisor for a psychotherapist, with the college that I'm at.
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So tell me kinda your path and what's kinda got you along the path to end up doing, kind of the
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kind of work that you did that you do.
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Well, I always knew I was going to work in the helping field in one way or another.
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And I think I was 8 when I told my mother that I wanted to be a psychiatrist and so she
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because my mother wanted to make sure we had at least one doctor in the family jumped on that
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and, took me to see a psychiatrist to do, like, an information interview.
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So I
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remember showing up with my little tape recorder and my mic phone, and I was gonna
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interview him.
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And, he the first thing he said to me was
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no recordings.
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It scared
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the life out of me.
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And so I asked him some questions, and he gave me some information, but he told me I was gonna
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have to go to medical school.
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And then get, you know, do a specialization.
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And at eight years old, I already knew there was no way I was going to medical school.
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It was not for me.
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And, and there are two reasons for that.
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One is because I don't like bodily fluids and 2, I don't like blood.
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Well, those are the 2 major fluids.
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Isn't it?
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Right?
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It's a good good point.
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I'm thinking, you know, what eight years old, I'm thinking, no way.
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I'm not going to medical school.
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I'm not looking at smelly body parts, and I'm not dealing with blood.
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It's not gonna happen.
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So I told my mom, yeah, I'm still gonna work with people.
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I'm just gonna find another way to do And so that was always my mission a little bit.
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And so when I went to university for my undergrad, I I did a double major in English
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and psychology.
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And the reason being, they said, if you can't get a job in psychology, at least you'll have a
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fallback and you can teach.
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So I thought, okay.
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I need a teachable.
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I'll I'll study English.
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And I actually I love the English language.
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I love to write.
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I've always been a writer.
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I've been writing since I was old kid.
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And so it was kind of a natural fit.
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But in my final year of university, I got a job working for a residential mental health program
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in Ottawa, and I worked there for about 4 years with people with very severe mental health
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issues that were coming out of hospital and reintegrating into society.
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And, they needed to relearn their life skills.
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They needed to learn how to take the bus again and how to cook meals and how to grocery shop
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and how to take their medications without supervision, all those skills that they had
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lost while they were long term in the hospital.
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And so I did that work for about 4 years, and it was during that 4 year period that I
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stumbled on the anger program.
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We had some people living in the house.
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You know, when you got 10 people living together, there's bound to be conflict.
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Yep.
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And so the conflict escalated.
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And we needed to address it.
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And there were no services.
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There were no programs.
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There wasn't anything out there.
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We're talking 1993.
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So it was, yeah, about 1993, 1994.
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There was nothing out there.
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There was the dance of anger by Harriet Learner.
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Oh my goodness.
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I haven't thought of that book in, like, forever.
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That was the only book out there.
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Yes.
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And no offense to Harriet Learner, but it was so painful Rita couldn't finish it.
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So
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it wasn't all that useful to me, especially for people with severe mental health issues that
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have cognitive issues and other challenges, right, interfering with their ability to
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process.
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So that wasn't much help to me.
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So I I dug around and tried to find some resources, and there wasn't much.
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And what I did find we kind of, you know, put together as a hodgepodge and and made a
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program.
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And from that, I think I was hooked.
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Just looking at the different aspects of anger that I had never really considered before,
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learning a little bit about myself as I went through the the, the process of building a
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program for my clients looking at what was working for them and why it was working for
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them and then adapting that into something that was that would be more transferable to the to
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the broader population.
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So for the average person, that doesn't know much about anger.
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It's something that we all deal with all the time.
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What what are some of the things?
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Like, let's say you're I'm coming to you as a, say an individual or I'm going into a company
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and I'm gonna maybe there's been a lot of conflict.
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What are some of the basic things that I need to know about anger?
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Well, the absolute first thing I would say to everyone is we have to stop treating anger as
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though it's a behavior.
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We talk about anger management.
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Anchor management is a misnomer.
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We're trying to manage something that comes naturally.
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We don't manage happiness.
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We don't manage fear.
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We don't manage sadness.
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We express it.
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We feel it.
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We express it.
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And then suddenly when we get angry, everybody wants it managed when, really, we should be
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feeling it and expressing it.
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And the reason that we feel anger is because one of our rules have been broken.
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Our expectations haven't been met.
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Someone has offended us.
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Right?
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It's not Mhmm.
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It'll just get angry for no reason.
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Anger has a purpose.
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It it serves to let us know that our rules have been broken or violated and that we need to
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take action.
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And so it makes sense that people act out when they're angry.
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That's what they're supposed to do.
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They just are acting out in ways that are harmful.
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And offensive and potentially dangerous to others.
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So what we do with anchor solutions is we try to turn that concept of anger as behavior on
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its head and take away the shame, and the stigma that comes from, you know, people being
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told that they have anger management issues.
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Right?
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Instead, we just say, look, everybody gets angry.
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I get angry, hundred times it, but thankfully.
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We all do.
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We just I just have better ways of expressing it.
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Mhmm.
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And, if I try to focus only on the behavior that you're doing in the moment, what's gonna
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happen is that the next time you get angry, you're going to need a specific solution for
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that thing.
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And then you're gonna need a specific solution for that thing.
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Whereas if I just teach you that your anger is acceptable, the way you feel is okay, I
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validate that.
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And then I give you a strategy for how to solve the problem that caused your anger.
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Now we're doing something that's more constructive.
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Right?
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And so we focus on on a few things.
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We focus on shifting the belief systems of a person because belief is the basis of action.
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And what you believe about anger is going to determine how you behave when you feel that
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way.
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So if you feel like or if you believe that the only way you can get people's attention is to
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throw a fit, then when you want people's attention, you're going to throw a fit.
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Right?
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You're trying to get your needs met, but you're doing it in a way that is belligerent.
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It's aggressive.
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Now if I can if I can show you how to get your needs met without having the fallout from what
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happens after you in an aggressive way, most people are willing to try that.
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And so we offer alternatives.
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We offer challenges to the belief set we also do offer shifts in behavior, but those shifts
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in behavior come after the shift in belief.
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Right?
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If I can shift your belief system, then your behavior will follow.
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Right?
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And the other thing is that if If we focus on solving the problem instead of fixing a
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feeling, then when you solve the problem, your anger will take care of itself.
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Right?
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What happens though is if we bottle it up, we walk away.
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You know, we take a deep breath and we count to 10 and we walk away.
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You're still angry.
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You haven't solved the problem.
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So the anger lingers, and you have to keep finding ways to manage it.
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Right, whereas if you would just address the problem and try to solve the problem that
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incited the anger in the first place, the anger would take care of itself.
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And so we're focusing on the wrong things.
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I think when we when we try to engage people in this in this false concept that is anger
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management.
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In in my mind, anger management is really a it's almost a dangerous concept because we send
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people to a class, you know, someone gets in trouble with the law, they get mandated by the
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courts to go to 6 weeks of anger management, and the the judge says something like, you
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know, I don't wanna see you in my courtroom again.
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Well, okay.
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So this person has been making poor choices all their life, which is why they are on a
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revolving door through your court.
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And you tell them to go to 6 weeks of anger management and you think that 6 sessions is
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going to change them for life.
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Hey, man.
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If that were if that were true with going to the gym, I would be, you know, I would be model
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ready.
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Because I've done at least 6 sessions at the gym.
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Do you know what I'm saying?
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And I've also done that periodically through my life.
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Right.
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And you know, it's that old statement that you don't go to the gym once and be healthy for
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life.
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And it's true as well of behavior change.
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If we want to if we wanna change behavior, we have to change the belief that guides the
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behavior, and we can't do that in six sessions.
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Mhmm.
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It
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just it can't be done.
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So I I think one of the key things for for HR professionals, for example, to understand is
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that when people come to you in a workplace setting, and they're complaining or they're
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angry or they're agitated or whatever, you wanna find out what their expectations are of
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the workplace.
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You wanna find out what their systems are and what's guiding them in their expectations.
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Wanna find out what their rules are for engagement and figure out which of those rules
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have been have been violated.
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Because they're not angry for nothing.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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They're not angry for nothing.
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There's a reason there.
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And if you can figure that out, and then have a conversation with them.
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Perhaps they just need to go to the person who can help them solve the problem.
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Mhmm.
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And that would be the person who did whatever it was that made the banker in the first place.
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Right?
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So giving them some guidance around how to resolve conflict and to do that active problem
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solving within the workplace would be very helpful.
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So I think I I what what a good point.
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Right?
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Let's let's not just give people.
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Here's ten tips and you apply them and, you know, you walk away and it's gonna
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be so that seething space within your body is real.
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And we've all been, you know, like, I always go to, like, from mild irritation to I can
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probably get over that quicker to you're really kinda wrong to me when you did X Y Z.
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That's real.
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And that really that we hold on to that and we tell it to everybody we see.
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You know, and and then we're talking to our spouse about it, or we're talking to our
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children about, you know, And we're carrying that around, and it and that's not helpful,
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obviously, on lots of levels.
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What I'm interested in is, okay, so we all have models that we kind of adapt to.
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So growing up, my dad was a screamer.
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So for me, anybody that screams I have a visceral shutdown reaction to don't scream at
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me.
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Right.
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Right?
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So sometimes I even react when the voice gets loud and the person's not angry.
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Mhmm.
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So what kind of things in your program do you expose people to or teach them to help them,
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you know, once you're triggered and, obviously, a trigger is a space that we go to in our brain
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that brings us back to a space that reminds us that, woah, something went wrong.
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What what are what are some of the things that you know is helpful for examples like mine?
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Well, I think in every case that the response is the same, whether you are being triggered by
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someone else's angry behavior, or or their anger response or you're feeling an anger
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response yourself.
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I I teach a model in anger solutions called TSA.
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And that stands for think, say, and ask.
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Think, say, and ask.
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So the thinking part is the part that determines everything else that happens
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afterwards.
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You can't say anything until you've processed, and you certainly can't ask for help until
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you've said what the problem is.
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So The thinking part is number 1, what is happening?
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What's happening right now?
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And pull yourself emotionally away from it and just examine the facts of the situation.
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What's going on here right now?
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This is happening.
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This person appears to be angry.
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They just said blah blah blah, and they said it in this tone of voice.
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Right?
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And I and I'm having a reaction to that.
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Mhmm.
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2nd question is, what does it mean?
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What's happening and what does it mean?
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Because life has no meaning except the meaning that we give it.
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Mhmm.
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Right?
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And so if it means nothing, chances are we're not gonna get upset by it.
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But if it means something to us, either because we have a relationship with the person and we
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don't want that relationship to be damaged, or perhaps it's because of that memory that's been
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triggered.
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And so we assign a meeting to what's happening.
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That that assignation of meaning is going to determine how we feel about it.
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Mhmm.
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Right?
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And what we tend to do then is we try to fix how we feel instead of solving the problem that
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we've identified.
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And so we ask, what's happening?
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What does it mean?
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How do I feel?
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And what would I like to do about it?
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What would what is my desired outcome?
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How would I like this to turn out?
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And so this is this is a really important question because in every in every case, when
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we are dealing with interpersonal problems.
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If you remember, I said that our expectations haven't been met or our rules have been
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violated.
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We have a desired outcome somewhere up here.
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We may not have articulated it.
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And we might not have a really clear picture of what it is, but the only reason we're feeling
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upset is because we have an idea that there's something better.
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Mhmm.
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And so if we can identify what that's something better is and put our focus on getting to that
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outcome, now we have a road map for how to solve the problem.
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Right?
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So if I can say what's happening, what does it mean?
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How do I feel?
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What do I want?
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What's my desired outcome?
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When I identify that, now my focus is is off of trying to fix how I feel And now it is on to
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what can I do to get that outcome?
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And so for every every possible solution, and there are always many, for every possible
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solution that we have in terms of getting to our desired outcome, we also have to ask 2 more
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questions.
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What's the worst thing that can happen if I do this thing?
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And this is where our brains always go.
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You know, we human beings.
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We're very negative thinkers.
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We always go to this is the worst thing that can happen.
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Oh, if I say that to my boss, you'll fire me that we don't do anything.
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Yeah.
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And we feel helpless and we continue to feel angry.
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And nothing gets resolved.
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But the other side of that question is, what's the best thing that can happen if I do that
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thing?
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Right?
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What's the best thing that can happen?
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Mhmm.
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So, you know, if I talk to my mother, my mother will yell at me.
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Well, what's the worst thing that can happen mother yells at you.
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What's the best thing that can happen if your mom yells at you?
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Mhmm.
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Right?
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Maybe what's the best thing that can happen is you finally decide you're gonna set boundaries
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with your mom.
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And you set those boundaries, and and they say, well, I can't do that.
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Well, what's the worst thing that can happen if you set a boundary?
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Right?
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It can just continue to process until we get to a place where we're comfortable enough with the
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choice of action.
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And then and only then should we take a choice of action.
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Right?
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We should never just sort of have that knee jerk reaction, and we all do it.
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I'm guilty of it as well, where something happens and right away, my my anger comes up
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and I am saying something or I'm doing something or I'm threatening to do something
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that I really don't want to do.
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And then I have to step back and then do that TSA and go, okay.
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What's my desired outcome?
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What is it that I really want?
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Well, what I want is to drive safely from point a to point b, I will want to work in a peaceful
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environment.
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I want a happy home.
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So if those are the things that I want, what am I going to do to get to that outcome?
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And what's the worst thing that can happen if if my plan fails?
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What's the best thing that can happen if plan succeeds.
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Right?
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Which which I love that because it's looking at both both ends of the continuum.
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Right?
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Absolutely.
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But I think our brain does go to the worst case scenario.
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If I stand up to that person that's raising their voice, they're probably gonna, you know,
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maybe in my little brain is saying, they're gonna scream louder.
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Or, you know, whatever.
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But in fact, they may say, oh, I'm sorry.
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I didn't realize I was that loud because maybe they're a loud talker.
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Right?
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So you're so you're so correct in saying that because we do really go to the negative
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oftentimes.
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For sure.
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And it's it's fear.
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Right?
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It's it's and I think a lot of that fear is the fear that is tied to the initial event
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that happened.
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Like you said that your dad was a screamer, and so sure every time your dad raises voice, you
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felt fear.
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And so now when someone raises their voice, you also feel fear and you retreat the same way
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that you're that you did as a child, because it's safer to retreat than it is to than to to
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confront.
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That behavior, but we're adults now.
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And it's hard to step out of that inner child, right, and to say, look, you know, it's okay
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for me to boundaries, it's okay for me to tell you that that behavior is unacceptable to me
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and you get to choose if you wanna continue in a relationship with me and the boundaries that
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I've set for you, that's okay.
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It's okay to have that conversation, but it is still incredibly difficult to have that
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conversation.
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I think even for those of us who work in this field and have insights, if you will, into
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psychology and anxiety and stress and communication and relationships and all those
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things.
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It's still difficult to say, hey.
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You know, when you spoke to me like that, I didn't like it, and I'd really appreciate it if
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you don't do that again.
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It's such a simple conversation.
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It it it is absolutely.
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I'm a but we're all human beings, and we're constantly working at it.
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And if, you know, if your child has come home late again or whatever, then you go into that.
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Like, you're right.
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It's the fear mode and, you know, what what's what's the worst that could happen the next
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time.
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Now I'm gonna I'm gonna talk a little bit about that gap.
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It's one thing to say, think about it, think about solutions, thinks about the worst, but
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once you're into that visceral or reactive state that your body goes into.
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I call it the surge.
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Mhmm.
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Once you're in the surge, you want some you want something to come of it so I can relieve
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that feeling that's, balling up in my body.
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So what kind of things or strategies should people consider, or what do you again teach, or
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what people like HR or people like management in reference to conflict in the workplace use
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or even consider applying or teaching others in order to adjust that gap that happens I think
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it's really small when people are scared.
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It is.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So I think the best way that I can answer this question is by giving you a an example.
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So I I worked with a realtor for a couple of years, and, she, she had had a motor vehicle
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accident and and was struggling with some of that self regulation.
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And so I I taught her the TSA model, and, and I did, you know, I did the full 15 weeks of anger
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solutions coaching with her.
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She took the TSA and she made herself a little cue card, and she stuck it up on on the
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bulletin board in her office in front of her phone.
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So every time someone called because that was her trigger is, you know, clients would call
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and say, you know, somebody was supposed to come over here and cut my grass for me today
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because the house is gonna be showed on again and and that's supposed to get done.
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And you said that somebody was gonna do it, and they're freaking out on her.
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And, she's getting stressed.
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And she's winding up.
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And now she's having fight or flight or the surges, you call it, and she's trying to figure
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out how she can calm them down so she can calm herself down.
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Right?
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And what she actually found worked for her was she started teaching TSA to her clients.
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Which I thought was fabulous.
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So she would get this time on the phone, and she would say, okay.
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Now I want you just to take a deep breath.
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Take another deep breath for me.
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Now just tell me very slowly and very clearly what's happening right now.
23:24
And then she would take them through the questions.
23:26
And she said they would just they would come right down, and they would be able to explain
23:30
to her what their need was, why it needed be met and how she could help them.
23:36
And then she would say to them, okay.
23:38
What's the worst thing that can happen if somebody doesn't come today?
23:40
The house isn't being shown till Saturday.
23:42
Someone doesn't come today, what's the worst thing that can happen, right, if someone
23:46
doesn't show up today?
23:47
What's the best thing that can happen if somebody does show up today.
23:50
Oh, your neighbors don't get bothered by the sound of the lawnmowers.
23:53
Okay.
23:53
We can carry on.
23:54
Right?
23:54
And so she works through that with everyone and in effect taught herself, like, she solidified
24:00
that skill for herself by teaching it to her clients.
24:04
And I think that what we really need, you know, this is where they take a deep breath and count
24:08
to 10 comes in handy.
24:10
Right?
24:11
It's not it's really not useless information or a useless strategy, it just needs to be tied to
24:17
something else.
24:18
You can't just tell people take a deep breath and count to 10.
24:21
And let that be the end of the strategy.
24:23
Mhmm.
24:24
The taking a deep breath is to reoxygenate your brain.
24:28
So what happens when we get into fight or flight is that oxygen oxygen is diverted away
24:33
from the brain.
24:34
And the major organs in the body.
24:36
It's also diverted away from the from the extremities, which is why our hands get cold
24:41
when we're anxious or we're, right, when we're angry.
24:44
Because the oxygen is going here so that we can fight or flee.
24:49
That's that's just an an ancient mechanisms been there since the dawn of time.
24:53
Can't change it.
24:55
But what happens when oxygen is diverted away from your brain is that you don't think very
25:00
clearly.
25:01
That's that gray swirl you go into.
25:03
Yes.
25:03
That Your frontal lobes that are responsible for executive function and decision making and
25:09
impulse control shut down.
25:12
Now it's just your amygdala, which is at the back of your brain or the the midpoint of your
25:16
brain, and that is where survival is.
25:18
Fear, anger, all your base emotions live there.
25:22
And so your amygdala is running the show.
25:24
You cannot allow your amygdala to run the show when you're angry at someone, you have to find
25:30
a way to, to override that.
25:35
And the way you override that is by taking a deep breath, sending oxygen back up into your
25:41
brain so that your executive function and your impulse control comes back online.
25:46
It's almost like you're rebooting your your brain systems when you take a couple of deep
25:50
breaths and you just go, Okay.
25:55
Here's what, you know, this is what's happening.
25:57
This is what it means.
25:58
This is how I feel this is what I wanna do.
26:00
This is the best thing that can happen.
26:02
This is the worst thing that can happen.
26:04
The beauty of this strategy is that when you get comfortable with doing it, it only takes
26:11
maybe a second, maybe 2 for that process to happen in your brain, and then you've got your
26:18
answer.
26:19
Right?
26:19
It it's basically the equivalent of taking a deep breath and counting to 10 is all the time
26:26
you need to do that, that tea part of the process all the way through from start to
26:30
finish.
26:31
Mhmm.
26:31
Mhmm.
26:32
Then you can say something.
26:34
Right.
26:34
And hopefully that thump that something that you say is going to be along the lines of, hey,
26:39
Roxanne.
26:40
I've got this problem, and I really need your help with it.
26:43
Are you willing to work with to to help me out on this.
26:46
Mhmm.
26:46
Hopefully, you will say, sure, Julie.
26:47
I'd like to help you.
26:48
And then I can say, this is what the problem is.
26:51
This is what I feel I need.
26:52
This is how you can help me.
26:55
Would you be willing to work with me so that these types of problems don't keep arising
26:59
again?
27:01
Hopefully, we can have an adult discourse and work through that and come up with a solution.
27:06
If not, at least I tried.
27:09
Right?
27:10
Mhmm.
27:10
Yeah.
27:11
So with employers.
27:12
Right?
27:12
So, you know, a lot of times when I'm calling to consult about situations and maybe there's
27:17
been a lot more conflict.
27:18
There's been a lot more.
27:19
Maybe there's been a lot of change.
27:22
You know, lots going on and and, you know, people, like you said, they go to most of us go
27:27
to protection when there's a lot of stress change, you know, with unions and and
27:33
management sometimes, lots of different things can happen.
27:36
So for for leadership, most companies have a policy on respectful behavior and things like
27:43
that.
27:43
But if there are environments or, let's say, let's let's say there's a lot been a lot more
27:50
conflict or maybe a lot more arbitrations in the environment, What are some of the things
27:55
that you would suggest to maybe HR leaders or just leaders generally listening to think about
28:02
in order to address the concerns?
28:05
I I think number 1, it is important to listen and really listen.
28:10
Listen with with the intent to understand rather than with the intent to reply.
28:17
To really pay attention and to validate people's emotional states.
28:23
Just because you're validating their emotional state doesn't mean you agree with everything
28:27
that they're saying.
28:28
It just means that you're acknowledging that their feelings are real.
28:31
And I think that is something that is so underrated in the world of work
28:35
that that workers when they try to
28:41
express how they feel and what they need, and they don't feel like they're they're being
28:46
validated, and they feel like their their, points of view are minimized that is where you
28:52
see morale take a a nosedive.
28:55
Mhmm.
28:55
And that people do become more combative.
29:00
Because they're fighting for that right to be heard.
29:04
Right?
29:05
I it it takes another layer and adds it on to what may already be a very tense and and
29:10
conflicting situation.
29:14
So listen, validate, problem solve, redirect.
29:18
There's nothing
29:18
wrong with redirecting as long
29:20
as you have first listened and validated.
29:25
Mhmm.
29:26
Right?
29:26
If you redirect before you've given people an opportunity to to explain or express how they
29:32
truly feel.
29:34
Again, they're going to feel as though HR doesn't care.
29:39
And I I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say HR isn't there for me.
29:44
They're there for the company.
29:46
They're not there for me.
29:48
And when you work for a company and that's how you feel, you it's hard to get work done.
29:55
It's hard to show up.
29:57
You know, it's hard to show up physically.
29:59
It's hard to show up and be present when you don't feel like the company or the department
30:05
that's post to be there for you actually cares about you.
30:10
And so, you know, caring is more than policy.
30:15
It's more than staff appreciation lunches and and those sorts of things.
30:20
Carrie is when the rubber hits the road and someone says, I'm feeling this way because
30:27
these things are happening, that someone actually takes the time to listen to pay
30:33
attention what's happening and to validate that emotional state.
30:38
I also think that it's important that HR professionals follow through on the policy.
30:43
I've seen so many companies so many educational institutions, different sorts of of
30:49
organizations that have really beautifully written policy, and they don't follow through.
30:55
So many places that say we have zero tolerance for bullying, but bullying is rampant.
31:01
Right?
31:02
If bullying is happening every second 7 seconds on the playground, every 25 seconds in the
31:09
classroom, You cannot tell me that your school has a 0 tolerance policy.
31:14
You just you can't.
31:16
Right?
31:16
Because if it's happening every 7 seconds, that there's no such thing as 0 tolerance on the
31:23
playground.
31:24
Nobody's looking.
31:25
They're not paying attention.
31:27
And then when the students run and say, you know, if this is happening to me, then the
31:32
teachers say silly things like, well, what did you do?
31:36
Right?
31:36
And this happens in the workplace also.
31:38
When a worker comes and says, I'm being harassed by my coworker, and they're
31:44
interfering with my ability to get my job done.
31:46
They're they're intercepting memos and and notices so that I'm looking like an idiot.
31:51
They're they're sabotaging my work.
31:54
And then HR turns around and says, well, what did you do to them?
31:57
It's the same thing.
31:58
Mhmm.
31:58
The same thing.
32:00
And and so we have to hear them out.
32:02
We have to validate and we have to look at the policies as more than just something that's
32:08
beautiful, you know, beautifully written and beautifully printed and placed in a manual
32:12
where everyone can see it.
32:14
The policy in a manual where everyone can see it means absolutely nothing.
32:18
It's like a a Bible in the in the chest of drawers you know, at a hotel.
32:23
Mhmm.
32:23
So it's there.
32:25
Right?
32:25
You open up the drawer.
32:26
You see the giddy in there.
32:27
You close the drawer.
32:28
You go back to that.
32:29
It makes no difference in your life if you don't actually pick it up
32:32
and open it and read it.
32:33
Right?
32:35
So I think it's important for people to actually know what the policies are.
32:40
And to enforce those policies and to make sure that those policies have teeth because if they
32:45
don't, then your employees will not trust you.
32:48
And if they don't trust you, they can't look for you.
32:52
And I think, you know, the important thing that I hear you're saying, Julie, is that follow
32:57
through means conversation.
32:58
And then whether it means, you know what?
33:00
I do, you know, we do have that policy, at at about harassment.
33:04
And let's review it.
33:06
Let's let's talk about it and say, you know, okay.
33:09
Do you, you know, do you have an understanding of it?
33:11
And maybe the employee hasn't read it per se.
33:14
And you open up that conversation to say, okay.
33:17
Well, let's let's maybe if you haven't, let's talk about it.
33:19
Okay.
33:20
What part of this do you think is happening for you?
33:23
And then you can narrow down even to open up the conversation to have the employee go, well,
33:27
you know what?
33:28
That did kind of happen, but, oh, but that didn't happen.
33:32
But I think you're right.
33:33
If we go automatically to not just saying hearing the personality, it's less likely that
33:38
you're gonna go to solution because that person's already upset.
33:41
Also to begin with.
33:42
Yeah.
33:43
Yeah.
33:44
And and I have to say too that one of one of my pet peeves, when I when I have people sent to
33:50
me, they usually are sent to me as the last resort.
33:54
Alright.
33:55
Oh, yeah.
33:56
There's this anchor specialist.
33:57
We'll send them to her because everything else we've tried hasn't worked.
33:59
Right?
34:00
Which I don't mind.
34:01
I don't mind that at all.
34:03
Give me most difficult cases, and I'll work with them.
34:06
But my point is that, I get very uptight when when, businesses or or institutions or, I don't
34:17
know, mostly the industrial types, that are factory oriented, that sort of thing.
34:25
Where they'll they'll say, well, this person has an anger problem.
34:30
Mhmm.
34:30
And we need you to fix them.
34:31
You know, we like them as a person.
34:33
We like them as a worker.
34:34
But they have an anger problem, and people aren't getting along with them.
34:36
So I need you to fix it and send them back to us.
34:40
Invariably, when I have a conversation with that individual, usually in our first or second
34:47
session, what they're telling me about the environment at work is that they are working
34:53
very hard to set boundaries, to get their job done, to do it in an efficient way and they're
34:59
trying to bring other people on board.
35:02
And those people are not cooperating.
35:05
And because the client is trying to make sure that things get done and people don't like it,
35:12
they're saying he's got an anger problem.
35:15
So that's ready that's ready a systems problem versus an anger problem.
35:19
Right?
35:20
Yeah.
35:21
Yeah.
35:21
And so what happens is that the person trying to affect positive change gets granted as the
35:26
one with the anger issue if they get sent to me.
35:30
And so what what I teach them is I do teach the anger solutions, of course, but I I focus very
35:36
much on that core piece, which is assertiveness, communication skills, how to
35:40
frame your language to get people to come on board with you as opposed to making them feel
35:47
as though you're trying to to force them into doing something that they're not ready to do.
35:51
Right?
35:52
So it's more about communication skills than it is about dealing with a behavior problem.
35:57
It's not a behavior problem.
35:59
The behaviors are things that he is trying to correct.
36:04
Right.
36:05
And because he's trying to correct them, but he doesn't really know how to do that, that's
36:10
where the conflict comes in.
36:11
So I I've actually never had a case where people have worked in that kind of industrial
36:16
or manufacturing where the person that was sent to me was actually the problem.
36:21
They were having problems because of either the system or other people in the organization And
36:28
so they needed to learn how to work with those people in a way that could help them to get
36:33
their jobs done and and that Certainly, it's a new twist or it's a different twist on anger
36:38
solutions, but it certainly is a necessary one, I think.
36:42
Which, you make such a good point.
36:44
Right?
36:44
So like you said, people wait till late stage.
36:46
Maybe the person's reacting more they're trying harder and harder.
36:51
They're getting, you know, maybe more revved up on the inside, and maybe they're butting heads
36:56
a little bit more.
36:57
And then they get loo looked at the problem versus saying, okay.
37:00
Well, what's really happening here?
37:02
And, you know, that's interesting because if you think of labor related environments, then
37:06
you see more conflict.
37:07
You see more for arbitrations.
37:09
You see people going out there in incidental absences go up because I can't solve the
37:14
problem.
37:15
All those things start to increase.
37:16
So I think I I love this the point of view or the approach that you're looking at is from a
37:22
from a leadership perspective is what is the issue?
37:25
And don't maybe this person is a gift.
37:28
They're actually showing you where a lot of the issues that are being hidden should be looked
37:34
at because they're they're they're the symptom, but they're they're in an environment that's
37:39
showing you that things have to change.
37:41
Yes.
37:41
Yeah.
37:42
I think it's really important too for people in leadership roles to set their ego aside.
37:51
Right?
37:52
Set the ego aside.
37:53
It's not always about you.
37:56
Right?
37:56
Like, I I often when I do corporate work, I I'm constantly reminding audiences that, look, your
38:03
employer is paying you a salary to perform a certain set of tasks.
38:10
And if those tasks aren't being completed, your employer has a right to be upset about that.
38:16
Right?
38:16
Like, you you're not you can't go to work and say, well, they should be happy.
38:20
I'm here.
38:21
Right?
38:22
If you're going to work with that kind of attitude, you need to check your ego.
38:26
Right?
38:26
We need to all check our egos at the door.
38:28
I'm doing a job for my clients.
38:31
And as a self employed person, if I don't do that job and do it well, I will not have
38:37
clients.
38:37
Mhmm.
38:38
But it is the same in the world of work.
38:40
If you're working for someone else, your employer is your client.
38:44
Right?
38:44
Your employer is your client.
38:46
And so you need to do those things that are required to to keep that employer happy, but
38:51
the employer also has a responsibility.
38:54
And the employer's responsibility is to sure that the the people who are working for that
39:00
company, understand the vision, understand the mission, buy into it, and are willing to work
39:07
with the employer to do whatever it is, whether it's customer service or, you know, it's
39:12
international export.
39:13
I don't know.
39:14
I don't care what it is.
39:15
But you have to buy into the vision of the owner or the management And the best way that
39:24
management can do that is to check their egos at the door and treat their people with
39:30
respect.
39:32
Hear them out and try to create a a working environment that is healthy for everyone.
39:34
It too often you know, the the the talk is, I guess, you know, everybody's so soft these days
39:47
and all these sorts of things.
39:47
And I'm not talking about babying people And I'm not talking about, you know, being so
39:52
politically correct that you can't even scratch your face without offending someone.
39:55
I'm not talking about those sorts of things.
39:57
I'm talking about respecting your fellow human being, right, respecting your fellow human
40:03
being in to know that they're working for their money just as you are working for your money.
40:08
They are working to help you be successful.
40:09
And so you don't want to make it difficult for the people who are contributing to your
40:18
success.
40:19
Right?
40:19
You want to create an environment for them that keeps them happy and makes them loyal because a
40:25
loyal employee let me tell you something.
40:28
A loyal employee, a loyal coworker, a loyal partner, a loyal ally, is is such a rare
40:36
commodity.
40:37
And it's a gift because It's
40:39
a gift.
40:39
It truly is a gift.
40:41
Right?
40:41
So I talk a lot about authentic leadership, and I work with, team, like senior leadership teams
40:47
with their direct, teams that they that report to them.
40:51
And the biggest thing is that people want to feel that you care, and they want the the
40:57
leader to have as as much awareness of their impact on them.
41:02
Absolutely.
41:03
Right.
41:03
And so if I if I'm leading from the heart, if I'm keeping my ego in check as a as a leader,
41:09
And I'm trying to take different perspectives into mind.
41:11
Like, how was your perspective different from mine?
41:14
And always being open, like you said.
41:17
Tell me more.
41:18
It may not be the way I see it, but I I I'm not understanding your where you're coming from.
41:24
And, obviously, you're not understanding where I'm coming from.
41:27
The growth that could happen in that space is pretty amazing.
41:30
Absolutely.
41:31
Yeah.
41:31
But but I think it's having the the wherewithal to recognize that we need you need you need to
41:36
have those kinds.
41:37
I call them more like conscious conversations.
41:41
And if there's been any kind of residual stuff that's built up, you gotta clear that out first
41:45
before you can even get there.
41:47
Right?
41:47
You can't just say, we're just gonna all be nice after you've not been because then that
41:51
that kind of leads you down a different path.
41:53
So, I I think you're so right.
41:56
It's a lot to do with a more us being kind to people and treating people with respect,
42:02
whether the guy opened the door at the front to the, you know, the guy that's in the the
42:03
corporate tower all people, and we all want it.
42:10
That same thing at the end of the day.
42:12
We wanna feel valuable with what we do.
42:14
Absolutely.
42:14
And if it if we want to perpetuate that message that every job, every vocation has value, then
42:23
we have to live that out.
42:25
Right?
42:26
You have to you have to leave that vision, right, of whatever whatever you're, you're kind
42:30
of promoting out there with Julie, I you and I had could probably talk about lots of different
42:36
topics.
42:37
Like, we could talk about bullying.
42:39
We could talk about you know, union and and management conflict.
42:42
There's so much.
42:42
I'm I'm it's been a pleasure, and our time has come up, and I know I wanna be respectful of
42:47
your your time.
42:48
So for any last words that you wanna share with people listening, I want you to tell people a
42:54
bit about where they can reach you.
42:56
I know you had a book there that got brought in.
42:58
I'd love you to show people.
43:00
Oh, I I don't know if that's gonna show up.
43:02
Oh, I I'm seeing it.
43:02
I'm seeing
43:03
it very well here.
43:04
So this is this is my book, Anchor Solutions, that based on my program.
43:09
I've written 6 other books.
43:12
Yeah.
43:13
5 other books since this one, but 6 7 total.
43:18
And, this one, if you want any of my books, you wanna learn more about them.
43:22
I would suggest going to my website.
43:24
It is w w w dotangersolution.com.
43:29
That's solution singularangersolution.com.
43:33
All my books are available there.
43:35
All of the training programs that we offer all of the corporate coaching and the individual
43:40
coaching programs that we offer are also listed on the website.
43:43
And, If anybody is interested in booking me for speaking engagements, that sort of thing, they
43:49
can they can do all of that there as a one stop shop for all the different aspects of the
43:53
service that I provide.
43:55
But then if people are looking for counseling services, individual work that I don't know if
44:02
see that.
44:04
Like, business card.
44:05
Yes.
44:07
So we are located at 1 Ormond Street South in Thorold.
44:11
We've just moved in here a brand new office for us.
44:14
Our open house is, on Friday, December 13th from 1 till 5.
44:19
So if anyone's local and they'd like to pop in, have some cookies, drink some eggnog, and just
44:24
take a tour of the offices and find out what we what we do here, we are a bit of a boutique
44:29
practice.
44:29
We have the only Spanish speaking therapist in Niagara is part of our practice.
44:34
So we offer services in English, Spanish Sannish and Portuguese.
44:38
And, we
44:39
have a sport therapist on-site as well who works with athletes who
44:45
are struggling with their mental mindset.
44:47
And, of course, we do all the other stuff MVA post trauma.
44:51
I specialize in bullying and anger, obviously.
44:54
And, and so, we're happy to take on new clients.
44:58
And we always offer a complimentary consultation to anyone who wants to meet with
45:04
us.
45:04
That 1st 30 minutes is on the house, just to see if you like us, if you feel like you can
45:10
trust us because therapy will not be successful if you don't like her trusted therapist.
45:13
So
45:14
Awesome.
45:14
Well, thanks again.
45:16
So my takeaway is is to recognize that all of us get triggered and to think.
45:24
Like, I think to think to increase that gap between the reaction.
45:28
And I think, you know, obviously, We all have reactions.
45:32
And, you know, the Amaglia, like, that, Julie talked about.
45:37
I call it the alarm bell.
45:39
And we have to address that, you know, if an alarm goes off right now, we're all fleeing for
45:43
safety.
45:44
So that's the that's the the queue that you need to do something a bit different.
45:48
So every time you're able to slow to look at what's the worst that could come from standing
45:53
up for myself, or what's the, you know, best solution in this.
45:56
Yeah.
45:57
Right.
45:57
When you did that automatically slows you down, and it gives you the option of not being as
46:02
reactive as all of us can potentially be at any given point.
46:06
So, so apply some of those phenomenal things.
46:09
If you're needing, issues or solutions on anger, you know, the web sites and things that,
46:15
Julie's talked about will be in the in the show notes and the links.
46:19
And for myself, if you're needing any kind of leadership training on authenticity, and mental
46:24
health and resilience.
46:25
You can reach me at roxanderhodge.com.
46:28
Okay, Julie.
46:29
Thanks again, and everyone have a great day, and we'll talk to you next week.
46:33
Thank you.
46:34
Thanks.
46:35
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
46:41
healthy change.
46:42
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
46:48
roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
46:52
We'll see you next time.
46:54
An authentic living with Roxanne.