Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Murder or Misfortune - The Deaths of Stephen & Carol Baxter

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Murder or Misfortune - The Deaths of Stephen & Carol Baxter · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's nothing I don't
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: think colder than being near the sea during the cooler
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: months of the year. The reason I say that is
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: that it's different than being kind of inland, where many
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: times you feel like that you can put on just
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: enough clothing to make you feel more comfortable. But there's
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: something about being near the sea when it's cold out
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: or cool. It's what they refer to as that kind
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: of bone chilling cold. If you live near the sea
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: in the cooler months, you run your heat and you
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: try to make your environment as comfortable as you possibly can.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: But the thing about being cool by the sea is
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: that it permeates everything.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: It comes up.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Through the floorboards of the house, it comes through the walls,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I think. And in our case that we're going to discuss,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: we've got two people that were found in peaceful repose,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: as they say, a married couple that seemingly died side
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: by side and what they thought initially was a carbon
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: monoxide poisoning, but as it turned out, it's something far
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: more sinister than a heater gone bad. I'm Joseph Scott
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Bags. I'm an anglophile, I'll
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: admit it. I love going to Great Britain. I love
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: exploring there. My family has roots all over the British Isles,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: as many of us do, and it just has a
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: different feel than anywhere else I've really been. And you
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: get that since environmentally day when you're there many times
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: during the year, even in the summertime, particularly in the evenings,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: you have to put on a sweatshirt, perhaps just to
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: remain comfortable. It's got that feeling in the air, of
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: that coolness. I think that it's because it is an
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: island country. You're surrounded by the sea, the North Atlantic,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: the North Sea, and so it's a presence that's always there.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: And certainly I think that it was there in the
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: lives of Stephen Baxter and his wife Carol.
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: It's interesting how we do perceive things. I've never been
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: to where you're talking about, but I'm picturing it from
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: all the movies and pictures and things like that, and
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: so I understand where you're coming from. And as we
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: delve into the story of a wonderful couple, they are
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: Stephen and his wife Carol, the Baxters. He is sixty one,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: she is sixty four. And the reason we're doing this story.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Obviously it is called body bags, but in this particular case,
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: it started off one way and win another. The couple
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: have a twenty one year old daughter and she has
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: a son, little toddler. I'm picturing her. The daughter now, Ellie.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: She comes home and she sees her mom and dad.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: They're in their recliners. Now in Great Britain, they called
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: them something different, can't remember the actual term, but we
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: call them, you know, lazy boy or recliner or whatever
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: you know. And usually in our case we have like
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: the man has the big leather chair, the woman has
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: the dainty cloth chair. Come into my house, it's reversed.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: I sit in the dainty cloth chair and my wife
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: sits in the big leatherne And so this couple, they've
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: been married long. They were just relaxing in their recliners
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: and their daughter, Ellie, comes in to check on him,
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: and she goes over to them and she said, hey,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: how you do. I don't know how they would say
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: how y'all doing in Great Britain. I don't know the wording,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: but they weren't doing well at that moment. I imagine
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: coming in, do you expect to see your mom and dad.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: You've got their grand baby, your child, and they're both
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: sitting in their chairs, but they're dead. As a matter
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: of fact, Joe, it is explained by the daughter that
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: they were sitting there together and were peaceful. There were
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: no signs of a struggle or any pain. She immediately thought, well,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: it has to be and you mentioned this at the beginning.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: It's cold chili and you got to turn the heat on.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: She thought something went wrong with the heater and it's
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: got to be carbon monoxide poisoning. She immediately opens the
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: doors to let in the breeze. She doesn't want her
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: one year old toddler to get sick. She doesn't want
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: to get sick, assuming it's carbon monoxide. But that's where
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: this case begins, Joe, with a loving couple together in
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: their recliners, peacefully passing away.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: You're right, and listen when the local officials show up
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: at the scene. And let me paint this a little
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: bit more precisely. This low ca You associate Great Britain
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: as an island country. However, there are little islands that
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: are associated with Great Britain, and this is to the
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: northeast of London, so it's actually sitting north of what
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: would commonly be referred to as the English Channel, right
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: on the southern edge of the North Sea, and it's
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: like a little island. This is the way I pronounce it,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Mercy Island. And it's in the county of Essex, so
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: it's northeast of London. It's one of the oldest areas
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: of Great Britain where you think about establishment of early
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: settlements and that sort of thing. People have lived here
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: for a long time, but this is an area where
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: it's primarily known for people retiring to this area. As
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, the beaches there they have those have
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: you ever seen those? And they're kind of known for
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: this there in this location, those little changing huts that
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: you see that are like in all of the pastel
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: cust and so they have this and listen, it takes
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: a much bolder man than I to want to go
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: and bathe in those waters, because you're talking about the
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: North Sea. Can you imagine going to the beach there
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: and splashing about. But this is a retirement area. It's
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: quite beautiful. A lot of people seek this area out
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: and so it's always going to be cool about these parts.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: So when the first responders show up at the scene,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: their bit of information is coming from the daughter who
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: has discovered her mom and dad deceased, and like you said,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: you're going to look around for signs of fourth entry
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: or struggle. Even at a base level, if you're not
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: a forensics person or police officer, you have questions that
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: pop up in your mind. Mom and dad are dead,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: but I don't see any blood. I don't see flipped
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: over furniture. I don't see broken glass. All that stuff
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: in your brain that's commonly associated with this sort of thing.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: You don't see that going on at this point in time.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Joe, let me ask you a quick question. When an investigators,
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: law enforcement, medical, when they show up to a scene
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: and they see this, their background information comes from the
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: daughter and she's telling them what she thinks. As an investigator,
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: do you take that with a grant of salt or
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: do you go, Okay, I've got to give this some power.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: She knows what's going on, she knows how they normally are.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: This doesn't fit.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: You have to be very, very careful and measured when
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: you do this, because, first off, as investigators where all skeptics.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: People are not going to like me saying this, we
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: assume everybody's lying to us. You just developed that kind
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: of callous because you're going to have to prove this
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: to me. You have to check yourself when you're getting
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: incoming information, particularly as it applies to a circumstance like this.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: And this is what we would refer to as the
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: initial reporter. This initial reporter has given you information, and
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: so you take to some total what you're seeing at
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: the scene, the information that's verbally coming from her and
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: her initial observations, because no one's going to have a
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: clear sense of things in their pristine condition as she
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: would have, you know, because she's listen. One of the
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: things you can validate really quickly, you know, I talked
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: about signs of fourth century and struggle. You go to
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: the door, you go to the windows, and if nothing's
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: knocked out, and you know that she's the daughter, she
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: has access to this. She's going to be the person
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: that has the key to the lock that will turn
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: it open the door. Maybe she calls out to as
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: they say, mom and dad, they're in Great Britain, and
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: they don't respond, And there they are, they're peacefully seated
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: in they're old recliners, they're that position of comfort that
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: they have, and you examine them and you look at them,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: And I don't mean examine them in the sense of
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: like a clinical sense. I'm talking about a familial sense
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: where you know, because you're so intimately a part of
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: their lives, you know how they look, you know what
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: their natural appearance is, you know what their common response
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: would be to you. Particularly you're standing there with this
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: precious one year old baby. And there's actually quite a
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: poignant image of mister Ms Baxter standing there holding this
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: one year old that was taken immediately Adjason and Dave.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Here's the other part.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: To this case.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: When the daughter showed up on that Sunday morning, it
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: was maybe with a sense of joy, sense of hope.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Maybe it was in her mind a moment of celebration,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: because it wasn't just any other Sunday.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: It was Easter Sunday.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: One of the most terrifying days I ever experienced as
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: a medical legal death investigator was the day I was
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: exposed to carbon monoxide. I had been given all clear
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: as myself and two of my colleagues, we had a
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: multiple death and event that occurred within a single family
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: residence where we had. I don't know the number escapes me,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: but it was over six people that were dead in
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: this house. And I got out there to the scene
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: to work the case, and the fire department had assured
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: me that the house had been sufficiently ventilated, and as
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: I came to find out a couple hours later, I
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: was laying on a gurney inside of a local emergency room,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: hooked up to oxygen and having nurses come in and
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: assess me minute by minute to see how I was
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: doing because I had been exposed to carbon monoxide and
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: it's absolutely terrifying and it's something that for most of
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: us you would get an immediate response to, and Dave
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: in this case, that's the bit of information that came
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: in to local responders. That would have been her first impression,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: her being the daughter. I think mom and dad may
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: have died as a result of carbon monoxide, and there's
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: just certain things that you look for in those cases.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: So the investigators take that information and begin to investigate.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: Nothing looks like it was crazy. There was no sign
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: of a fight or anything like that. It really did look,
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: as their daughter said, a peaceful scenario and one that
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: and what is really sad there's a lot sad here.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: But I thought about how as this case evolved, where
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: the daughter said that when they're passing. In the first
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: days following it, she mentioned several times that even though
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: they were gone, she had that really wonderful, peaceful last
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: look at them lovingly sitting together in their chairs, having
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: a good time as people in their sixties are doing.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: And I thought how rocked her world must have been
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: when they found out what really happened, because underneath this
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: very serene and peaceful can call it peaceful, serene death,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: but it looked like that. But investigators have to do
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: their job. So, Joe, what leads you from that? Seems
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: like an obvious answer. You've got the two bodies in
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: front of you, two investigators come in and take the
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: bodies out of the chairs and start examining there. How
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: do you go about moving somebody in this peaceful state
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: and taking them back to the office or whatever to
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: look at them. I mean, you're not going to do
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: it right there.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: No, you would do an initial assessment, and those things
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: are going to really and I literally mean visually pop
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: when you think about it. I often tell my students
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State, I'm teaching death investigation too. Imagine the
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: most brilliantly colored pink lollipop or popsicle piece of candy
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: that you've ever seen. And when you'll see that external
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: manifestation on the body of carbon monoxide uptake in the system.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: It presents on the skin, Dave, it presents in the face,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: on the external surfaces end. Even when you get the
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: body into the morgue and you open the body, the
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: internal viscera will have that very pink appearance to it.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Even the blood changes color. So it's something that would
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: be quite striking that you would see initially. Now many
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: times you have to be very careful because in a
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: case like this where you have just the fact that
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: she would mention this gives you an indication. First off,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: she knows that there's a heat source in the house.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Because she's drawn this conclusion. You would have to check
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: that heat source within the house, and you have to
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: do it very carefully because, look, your people, as public
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: servants are going into this environment that could be toxic.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: So you'll have to check the heat source and see
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: if all of the heating sources are functioning correctly. So
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: that means you have to call the fire service out
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: and with the Fire Service, they we actually have and
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: many of us have these in our homes. You have
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: carbon monoxide detectors just like fire detectors, and they go
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: off when sensing this poisonous gas. The Fire Service actually
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: has handheld devices that they can walk through home and
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: they can do an immediate assessment in this environment to
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: see if they're getting hits in any of these areas.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: And I would think from an investigative standpoint, you call
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: the fire service out right, you're standing there and you're
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: talking with local investigators, and these guys walk in, they're
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: wearing respirators and they're checking the environment to see if
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: there is any indication that there's carbonoxide in the environment,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: and they're not getting hits, and they come back out
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: and they report this to the investigators. The investigators suddenly
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: have to be able to explain that just grab onto
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: this just for a moment. They suddenly have to explain, Okay, well,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: now we've got no signs of fourth century apparently, no
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: signs of external trauma. We don't have any presentation of
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: those artifacts. That's what we refer to them as on
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: the surface of skin relative to carbon monoxide. With the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: pink color, and I've got a machine here that's telling
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: me that there's no level of caron monoxide in an
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: environment that's incompatible with life. That investigator has to take
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: all of that in formula and said, well, behind the
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: heck did I get to the point where I've got
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: two people that are sitting side by side deceased, they're dead,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: And people just don't you hear these stories of people
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: that have been married for a long time. You hear
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: these in the news where you'll have one person that'll
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: pass away peacefully and then a couple of months later
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: claim the other person dies of a broken heart. And
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: that seems to happen many times, that people just give
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: up the will to live. But simultaneous deaths, that's just
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: not something that happens.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Dave, I feel so bad for their daughter discovering them
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: in that state. But you mentioned people don't die like that.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: So you're the investigator. You're coming in showing her the
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: proper amount of respect because you don't want to turn
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: her make it even worse. But at some point she's
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: going to find out it's a lot worse than she thinks.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Then, as an investigator, you're thinking in your mind, well,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: what could be the potential here? Am I looking at
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: a double suicide? Here? Is there any indication around the body,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that you're going
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: to look for. You're going to look for any substances
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: that might be at the scene that would give an
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: indication that this is some kind of non trauma related
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: suicide where you've entered into a pack to take on
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: some kind of substance that is going to be toxic,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: in other words, incompatible with life, and that you're going
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: to succumb to this. And listen, if you don't get
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: this right at the scene, right at that moment, then
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: you can lose all kinds of evidence. So you're going
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: to go through this house and very very carefully looking
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: for I mean everything from injectables of any kind. You're
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: going to go into the kitchen to see if there's
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: anything that has been mixed up, maybe that is sitting
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: in the sink, something with a white powdery residue. You're
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: going to look through this environment and attempt to determine
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: if in fact that there was that there's something more here,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: something that doesn't quite come up to snuff, if you will,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And it's a moment in time where you have to
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: be able to assess it and make that determination.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Then if carbon monoxide doesn't have a smell or anything right.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: It doesn't. It gives you a pounding headache. I can
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: attest to that, and you'll get external manifestations initially like
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: bloodshot eyes and those sorts of things. And here's just
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: kind of on an a side here. If you are
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: exposed to carbon monoxide, it can still be lethal eight
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: hours after exposure. That's how dangerous it is. It is
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the most common agent that we see in a gaseous
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: form that people actually succumbed to, and it's used. It
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: is actually used frequently as a means to take one's life.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: You see it. You know, you hear about people that
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: sit in a car and with the windows rolled down
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: inside of a closed garage. I've actually had a man
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: that used a glass cutter to cut a hole in
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: a window pane of his home and had an old
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: truck parked just outside his window and ran a vent
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: ducked from a dryer. He taped it to the tailpipe
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: and ran it through the window and had this is
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: a very sad case. It just came to mind, had
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: the cremains. That means the remains of his daughter and
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: his wife that had died in a motor vehicle accident
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: years before, laying on the bed next to him, took
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: wet towels and sealed beneath the doors, and after he
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: had turned the truck on outside and just laid down
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: his bed and died. So you do see that as
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: a method for suicide, but it's something that would it
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: would stand out in this environment where you would have
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: perhaps the smell of natural gas in the house, which
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: is quite pungent. Remember, natural gas doesn't normally have a smell.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: They add this so that you can pick up on
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: the odor of it.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can get an odor in the air
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: that gives you an indication that this is danger. It's
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: certainly something that you would you would take notice of,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: and to this point that didn't come up on the
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: radar of the police. So our big question in the
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: case of the Baxters is what could have possibly led
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: to their deaths. Well, we know that both have underlying
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: physical conditions. They're retired, David. I don't know if you
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: realize this, but first off, it's not cheap to live
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: on this island. And interestingly enough, this couple together apparently
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: had developed a very specific of all things bathmat that
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: they had patented that they had sold and they became
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: quite wealthy off of this. So they were able to
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: live the life of millionaires because they actually were. So
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: you begin to think about this, what could have been
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: going on in their lives that would have brought their
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: lives to an end simultaneously. Is this something where there's
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: depression going on, physical illness, because sometimes that will motivate
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: people to take their own lives, or is it something
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: more sinister? And I think in this case, we've got
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: something that is a bit more sinister, Dave.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: And that's where as the investigators dig in, and you
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: mentioned this that based on the physical things that are
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: seen when somebody actually does have carbon monoxide poisoning, the
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: experts were able to pretty much eliminate that within a
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: matter of minutes. I imagine they played up with the
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: daughter for a little while to not crush her because
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: they didn't have an answer. But they didn't have an
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: answer as to how they died or why or who,
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: but they know it's probably not carbon monoxide. They did
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: allow Elliott or their daughter to continue thinking that until
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: they actually did have an answer, though.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: I was looking up.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Some things at the end, was reading in one of
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: the first stories right after they were found, because I
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: wanted to see what did their neighbors think, what did
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: the family think. Got a couple in their early sixties
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: and they're both gone, and overall it was a very
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: much loving tribute to the couple that they died together
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: of carbon monoxide poisoning. That's how it was kind of
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: report did the day a day or two after their passing.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: It was only when they actually investigated it and the
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: experts got involved that the other story came out.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: It is quite dark, very very dark. You know, you
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: think about, well, what would motivate someone to take these
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: people's lives. They were both kind of infirm. Missus Baxter
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: actually had in dwelling pneumonia at this particular time. What
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: is that, Well, she's got ongoing pneumonia and so it's
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: bronchial pneumonia and it's very difficult for her to breathe
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: in the first place. And we're talking about breathing here,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: you know, people were talking, you know, we're throwing around
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: this idea of carbon monoxide assixiation. Well, that's going to
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: compromise the respiratory system. And now mister Baxter actually had
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: a condition that's referred to as just cardiomeg which is
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: an enlarged heart. And so they're not in the best
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: of health, either one of them. So it wouldn't take
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: a lot to in their lives, particularly if there was
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: some kind of agent that was applied to them, some
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: kind of chemical And in this particular case, you know,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: they listen. When you get to a scene and you're
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: working this thing, you have indicators they're there. For instance,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: if you have drug ods. Let's keep it simple. You
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: think about someone that's a IV heroin abuser. Well, if
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: THEOD at the scene, you're going to find what to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: refer to as their works. You'll find a tourniquet, You'll
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: find a spoon. Generally the underside of the bowl of
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the spoon will be burned soot on the bottom of it.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: You'll have maybe siline that's there. You'll have cotton swab,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: and you'll have evidence of maybe yellow or white pottery substance,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and a syringe that they can draw something up through.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: You'll have these definitive things. But listen, you're not going
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: to know that the heroine killed somebody until you get
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: toxicology back. Talking about this poor daughter, she didn't have
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: answers at the time. She was just kind of coming
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: up with these idea is in her mind about what
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: could have happened. But boy, when the toxicology came back,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: were they surprised because, as it turns out, both mister
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: and missus Baxter had on board fentanyl, of all things day,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: which is just that absolute scourge of society right now.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, so many people are losing their lives as
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: a result of fentanyl.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: And we've had many stories this year alone about fentanyl.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: This year alone. Yeah, and she also had promethazine in
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: her system, which is an agent that generally they give
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: it counteract nausea. It has been used as a precursor
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: for application of anesthesia. It has that quality where it
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: will make you drowsy. So if you take, for instance,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: promethazine and it's combined with certainly with fentanyl, it will
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: certainly be enough to push you over the edge into
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: that toxic range where it's a non survivable position. And
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot of fentanyl to kill someone.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: We've heard for years and years people will have they
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: know how powerful morphine is. Morphine is actually derived. It's
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: an opiate, and it's a naturally occurring thing. Okay, it's
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: not necessarily something that is blended up in a laboratory.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Fentanyl is actually something that is synthetic. The molecule is
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: similar to all other naturally occurring opiates, but this is
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: something that is processed that it is created. And fentyl
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: has a long history of being used as a substance
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: in the medical community for pain, and that's kind of
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: where it's the wellspring from what this thing comes from.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: But now people are manufacturing it and those that have
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: the inclination to want to do harm. It doesn't take
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: very much to get this on board. The question is,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: and the question that the police have to ask in
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: this particular case, is who has access to these individuals? Well,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: you know, the first thing you have to think about,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: and this is just part of being an investigat You
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: have to think about the daughter. Does she have anything
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: to gain by doing harm to her parents? Does she
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: have the opportunity to do this subject them to this substance. Well,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: apparently they eliminated her pretty quickly. In this particular case.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: As it turns out, they have in fact, at this
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: point in time, arrested individuals that the police are now
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: saying or responsible for the deaths of the Backs or so.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: As this turns out, this is in fact a homicide
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: that was brought about by the use of funnel. The
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: question to this point, though, because this case has yet
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: to be adjudicated, is how did they get the substance
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: into their systems without them knowing about it. To this point,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: three people have been arched. One in particular, Luke de Witt,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: has actually been charged with two counts of murder as
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: well as theft. But at this point we're still waiting
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: on the trial and the outcome of this case. I'm
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks