Latest / Mind Over Mountain / Reissue: Be So Good They Can't Ignore You: Sarah Spain on Persistence

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Reissue: Be So Good They Can't Ignore You: Sarah Spain on Persistence · Mind Over Mountain

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome to Mind over Mountain with Cheryl Strade.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: My guest today is the amazing Sarah Spain, who many
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: of you know from her podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: which is here on the iHeart Women's Sports Network. Sarah,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: for two decades has been a sports journalist, reporting from
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the sidelines and the locker rooms on all the games
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: we love and watch, all the competitions that have our
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: hearts racing. Sarah, who's also a former athlete herself, talks
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: to me about her trajectory from college athlete to aspiring
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: comedian to journalist entering a male dominated field to a
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: journalist who's at the very center of women's sports. Today
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: we answer a dear Sugar letter from a woman who
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: also works in a male dominated field. Let's listen to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: my conversation with Sarah. Sarah Spain, Welcome to mindover Mountain.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited to have you.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I think of you as the goddess of all things
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: sports journalism, specifically women's sports journalism.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: Do you feel do you.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Feel or like a queen or a goddess or some
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: sort of higher being?
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Do you feel that?
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  Speaker 4: And I think I usually imagine a crown on my
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: head just every day, but now I've elevated it to
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: more of like a glow because Goddess is even one
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: step above Queen.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: So I thank you for that.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Goddess has a little bit of divinity in it
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: as well as power, right, But honestly, I do I
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: think you, you know, obviously, have been such a leader
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: and trailblazer, and here you are also the creative director
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: of our very own I heard women's sports media, and
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for that.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: You know, I think that the stories we tell.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: About women's achievement and women's bodies obviously, you know, reverberate
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: through the culture beyond sports, and thank you for being
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: a voice that has been leading the way.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Thanks for saying that. I agree.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: I think one of my favorite things about sports is
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: how it is an intersection of so many other things.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: I think I wouldn't really find it very satisfying as
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: my life's work if I didn't feel like it was
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: a place that brings people together to talk about a
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: whole bunch of stuff that they might not otherwise want
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: to discuss or even understand that they were getting into.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: If they didn't want to show up to talk about
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: their favorite athlete or their favorite team, and then suddenly
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: realized they were in the midst of discussing, you know,
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: bodily empowerment or feminine rights or other things that are
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: sort of inherently intersectional.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I mean, I think that's both everywhere in
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: the culture that sports, you know, expand beyond that athletic world,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: and I think that it's everywhere within us too, because
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: there is something elemental and essential about the stories we
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: tell ourselves about what we're capable of. I wanted to
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: share with you something. I mean, I have a million
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: things to ask you, but what you just said brought
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: this memory to mind for me. I have a daughter
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: who's twenty now, but back when she was about seven
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  Speaker 1: or eight, we were watching some kind of women's sports,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: so I think it was the Olympics, and my daughter said, well,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: why do the men and the women compete separately? You know,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: why are there just women in this race or in
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: this competition? And I said, well, you know, because men
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: are built physically different, They're stronger in a lot of
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: the sports, and so they divide them by you know,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: men and women. And my daughter was so mad at me.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: She was like absolutely adamant. She was said, Mom, that
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: is not true. That is not true. Men are not
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: stronger than women. And I said, yeah, I know, I
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: know women are stronger in all these ways, but I'm
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: just talking about this one, you know, specific muscular way.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: She rejected that story, and here I you know, I've
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: been a feminist all my life, and I was like,
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  Speaker 1: I have just been schooled by my daughter who's saying
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I refuse that narrative.
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  Speaker 4: And well, there's some cool proof of that. In some
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: ways that are surprising. The longer erases, the more likely
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: that women were surpass men and end up finishing faster.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: Every time you add more time, it's more likely that
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  Speaker 4: a women will be stronger. And there's a book that
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  Speaker 4: I'm part way through. I want to keep digging into it,
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  Speaker 4: but it's called The Stronger Sex, and it actually enumerates
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  Speaker 4: so many different ways that women are stronger. It's just
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  Speaker 4: the way that we measure strength that been fit into
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  Speaker 4: a patriarchal system to reinforce the idea that men are
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  Speaker 4: stronger and to limit the amount of time that we
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  Speaker 4: spend talking about the ways that women actually prove a
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  Speaker 4: different kind of strength and it's not just mentally, although
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  Speaker 4: that yeah to me.
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  Speaker 2: The older I get, the more I'm like.
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  Speaker 4: Man, women are carrying all the things, and sometimes not
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  Speaker 4: all men, but sometimes men are just like Ken, It's like,
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  Speaker 4: my job is job.
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  Speaker 2: Don't brand me anyone else throughout all a part.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my, Yes, we could talk a long time about that.
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  Speaker 1: But I mean, I think I think that's I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I think you're right. It's factually true that women are
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: outperforming you know, me in certain arenas, athletic arenas.
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  Speaker 3: But also I just I.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Am struck by and I think that so much of
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  Speaker 1: what you're doing in women's sports is essentially aimed at
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  Speaker 1: like what my daughter was pointing out, like, let us
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  Speaker 1: not keep telling the story that men are stronger and
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: more capable. And I'm curious, like how it is you
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: began way back when you were a little girl, How
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: did you fall in love with sports?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think you know to the point your daughter
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  Speaker 2: was making.
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  Speaker 4: Also at that age, it is much less clear and obvious.
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  Speaker 4: I was beating all the boys in races up until
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  Speaker 4: a certain age. I was still beating so many boys
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  Speaker 4: in so many sports for most of my life. Because
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: if you are an athletic woman, you can hang and
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  Speaker 4: I think I loved that. I loved it for a
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: number of reasons. One, my family was very active growing up,
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: so it was very natural to just be playing tennis
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: and golf and playing sports in the backyard and running
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: and doing all those things.
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  Speaker 2: But my sister and.
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  Speaker 4: I both were very athletic young and I in particular,
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: was about six feet tall by the time I was twelve,
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  Speaker 4: so I wanted to use that for something, and I
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  Speaker 4: noticed that it gave me an advantage over other people
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  Speaker 4: in my sports. And I was a very confident girl
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  Speaker 4: in a lot of areas. I was very funny, I
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  Speaker 4: was very smart, I was you know, had a lot
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  Speaker 4: of friends. But I was very insecure about my height
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  Speaker 4: and whether boys would like me, and all the standard
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  Speaker 4: things that especially a six foot tall twelve year old
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  Speaker 4: with braces and frizzy hair, would worry about. And it
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: was not lost on me from a very young age
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  Speaker 4: in my teens that being able to use my body
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  Speaker 4: for something that made me feel successful instead of just
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: being insecure about being tall, was really important. My parents
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: would always say, stand up straight, you know, if you slouch,
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  Speaker 4: it'll look like you're uncomfortable with how tall you are,
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: and being tall is great, and also being a young
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  Speaker 4: woman who looked older than I was because I was tall,
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: because I developed early, I got a lot of attention
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  Speaker 4: I didn't want from men, and frankly that I didn't
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: even really understand. Until a certain point, I didn't really
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: get what was happening between me and men who thought
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: I was older, and when I did, it gave me
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: a lot of shame. And so it was really important
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  Speaker 4: for me to see my body as something that did
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  Speaker 4: something for me and not as the object of other
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  Speaker 4: people's viewing or judgment.
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  Speaker 2: And then over the.
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  Speaker 4: Course of my life, I've had a lot of insecurities
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  Speaker 4: about my weight just from not fitting the ideal esthetic
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  Speaker 4: standard that our society has basically made, which is like
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  Speaker 4: way thin and not realistic for a lot of people.
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  Speaker 4: And so if it weren't for my body being a
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  Speaker 4: collegiate heptathlete and a multi sport athlete in high school
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  Speaker 4: that recruited for three different sports in college, that I
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: think I would have had even more judgment of it.
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  Speaker 4: And thankfully I was able to say, over and over, oh,
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  Speaker 4: my gosh, I'm so grateful my body is fast and
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  Speaker 4: strong and tall and all these things and not just
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  Speaker 4: whatever you're looking.
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  Speaker 1: At, right, I mean, I think that's the difference between
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: being inside yourself, you know, being the agent you're really embodied,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: versus seeing yourself as the object, which I think you
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  Speaker 1: know so much in our culture does do that to women.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 1: There's that that word objectification, which means that kind of
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  Speaker 1: external viewpoint. And for me and my experience too at
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  Speaker 1: every stage of my life, that that doing, rather than
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  Speaker 1: being the object, being the subject is everything. So you're
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: you were a heptathlete, which you know is an incredibly
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: olbion word to try to saylete. Will you list them
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: up for our listeners who might not have memorized them?
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  Speaker 3: I know that. I think the javelin and javelin exciting.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, right, I.
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  Speaker 4: Love the javelin, so javelin, high jump, hurdles, eight hundred,
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  Speaker 4: two hundred, shot put, long jump.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot of different things to be good
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  Speaker 1: at our good.
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  Speaker 2: Enough jump and throw all that.
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  Speaker 1: It's like the whole it's the whole thing. Is there
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: any like napping involved there?
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Just to well?
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  Speaker 4: The havetathlon at least is outdoors and there is a
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  Speaker 4: two days so you do one day and three the next,
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  Speaker 4: but you do have to finish sprinting half a mile,
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  Speaker 4: which is just the most brutal and terrible thing when
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  Speaker 4: you're already.
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  Speaker 2: Tired and indoors.
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  Speaker 4: It's a pentathlon just one day, but you only have
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  Speaker 4: to do five in one day.
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  Speaker 3: So, oh my gosh. So what did that look like
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: for you?
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  Speaker 1: You're a college athlete, you know that's you're competing at
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: a pretty high level at that point. What happened and
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: why did you not continue as a competitor beyond college?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 4: Well so, I mean it was a really great balance,
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  Speaker 4: and I think a lot of women athletes and non
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: revenue driving sports get that great balance of being an
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: athlete and being a student in the way that most
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: people are promised as happening across the board, but really
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: is pretty limited. A lot of the folks that are
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: in say men's basketball and football, are kind of told
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: not to take certain classes or labs that will interfere
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: with sports, and they don't really get the education part.
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: I got to go to Cornell University, be a track athlete,
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: be you know, involved in every part of being a
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: student there. But junior year I tore my achilles, and unfortunately,
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: when they went into do the surgery, it was about
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: an eth the size of a normal achilles. So instead
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: of sewing it to itself, they took a piece of
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: my calf out that allegedly wasn't that useful anymore due
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: to evolution, and wrapped it around. It's been about twenty years.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: It seems pretty important because my calf is still like
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: two and a half inches smaller than the other. I
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: have to shove a sock in there when I wear
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: like a knee high boot, and it you know, caff
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: raises and all the things. And then over the course
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: of time it created a kinetic chain imbalance. So basically
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: because my one leg was so much stronger than the other,
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: it made it hard to do a lot of things.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: I tried to come back to tip tathlon, started to get
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: arthritis in my foot, so senior year I just died
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: javelin And then unfortunately, it's like ben the story of
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: my time post Collegiately, when I thought I would be
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: beating everyone's ass and pick up basketball and winning club
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: championships in tennis and doing all the things.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Tough mutters and half marathons, I'm.
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: Really so limited still all these years later, because it
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: created back issues and all the other stuff. So the
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: toll of being a collegiate Division one athlete lasts a
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: lot longer than just when you're there, if you're unlucky
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: like me. But you know, I'm grateful for what I
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: can still do, and I try to do as much
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: as I can with what I got.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: And was that I mean, was that a big heartbreak
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: for you?
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Did you were those your highest ambitions as a young woman,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: that you would be a professional athlete or no?
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: I think I knew that college was the end of it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: I wasn't it be an Olympian And that's really where
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: track goes like, right, being a professional track athlete, that's
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: the highest you can be a pro and not be
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: an Olympian. But it's not the same as had I
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: been a basketball athlete with the WNBA and thinking about
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: that professional league.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I think I knew I was done.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: I think the problem is I thought I would be
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: a lifelong athlete and it is still a massive part
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: of my identity. And I'm approaching more years not being
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: quote unquote an athlete as many as I was. But
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: it doesn't feel like that. It was so important to
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: who I was in junior high, in high school, in college.
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: That to now at this age, and I'm getting all
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: these cool opportunities from my work at ESPN and at
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: iHeart to play in like celebrity basketball games. Right, I
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: just got asked to play an Alex Morgan mia Ham's
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: soccer game.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I say no, I can't do it.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: And it's really uh yeah, it's not. Nobody has offered
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: me any of these things yet. Sarah got to get out, well,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: now you're part of iHeart women. I've just started out here, sporty.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Spice era for you. It's about.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean that would have been the dream
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: back in the day, and I'm so competitive.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: I would have had so much fun doing all that stuff.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: So I mean I really haven't even been around allowed
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: to jog for seven or eight years. So that's how
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: signally what I'm dealing with this. So I can't just
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: say yes and then pay the consequences later. It's it's
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: a it's a long term thing I'm trying to recover from.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: So so that part sucks.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: And I do think.
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: Every athlete has that moment of this was my whole
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: identity who and what am I after this?
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I just mine was a lot quicker.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: I didn't get to you know, I have a lot
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: of college teammates from Cornell that are doing like CrossFit
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: competitions or all these different marathons, like all these ways
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: that they're still using the part of them that was
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: just a big thing.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: And now now.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: I'm doing my peloton and working out with my trainer
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: and walking.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, But see that's where I want to back up.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: You use this term quote unquote an athlete. What is
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: quote unquote an athlete according to you?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: So this is an interesting thing.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: I was on the gatorad Women's Advisory board for years
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: and one of the things that stood out from research
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: was that women who regularly worked out and were still
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: participating in even like fun runs and stuff would not
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: call themselves an athlete, but men who played basketball like
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: once a month were like, yes, I'm an athlete, right,
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: And so it's that same thing of like how do
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: we see ourselves and how do we label ourselves? I
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: am a forever athlete, and I still in whatever capacity
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: I can, We'll try to compete at things, but it
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: just doesn't feel the same to me if I can't
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: go play in games I can't and I can't even
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: really compete. I'd like to get into more golf. It
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: takes so much time, but I feel like that would
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: be my last chance. Maybe bowling, like if I was
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: going to try to really get better at something.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: And what about curling.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're okay, I and all the curlers
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: are going to write in and be like, you know, but.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: No, it's not to say that it's easy, but is
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: less difficult in terms of like high impact movement.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: So maybe I should get into curling.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, maybe we could do that together. So you know,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I ask you this question because it's one I've contemplated,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: you know, as the host of this new podcast.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Because I do want to cast the.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Net wide, and it's one to contemplate for myself. And
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: it's funny because I think that that you're right that
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: women are reluctant to say that it's it's also I
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: think people are more reluctant to assign that term athlete
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: to women. I get the question a lot, you know,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: and I have people don't think of me as an athlete. Meanwhile,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I've been I think I've been an athlete all my life.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I've allt you know what I can say, like I
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: do this, and I do this, and I do this sport.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: I mean regular thinking hiking miles.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: That's hard, that's being an athlete. Yeah, that's right.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: So I'll just say I think you're an athlete.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I just think that you you come from this more organized,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: competitive world.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I had to reset my expectations.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, So after college, how do you how
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: do you get here?
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Sarah?
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Like you go, You're like, okay, I'm not going to
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: be a professional athlete, which had never really been in
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: your plans?
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: What were what was in your plans?
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: So my lifelong dream, which I refuse to give up
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: until I perish, is Saturday Night Life. I realize that
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: they are not adding cast members in their forties, but
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: maybe something that.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Changed way till a fifties, Like they're really looking for
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: women and they're really Yes, that's when I really will peak.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: So, growing up, I was always into entertaining. I was
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: all stayed in bandon chorus. I wanted to be in
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: every talent show and play that I could while do
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: all the sports at the same time. I always joked
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: that heptathlon is just a microcosm, macrocosm of my life,
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: like jack of all trades, like don't focus on one thing,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: do all the things, all the events, all the activities.
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: And so I knew I wanted to do acting in
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: comedy stuff, but I also wanted to make sure I
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: majored in something that was, you know, going to set
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: me up for life after school, even if I didn't
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: decide that acting was what I wanted. So I was
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: an English major, moved out to LA a couple months
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: after college, and I was like, let me fail fast,
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: let me see if I like this. Let me see
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: if I like it in practice as opposed to just
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: the idea. Took acting classes, did Second City, did the
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: full improv Conservatory out in LA and I actually took
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: a TV hosting boot camp that was a three day
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: weekend class. And in the class, we were practicing throwing
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: to break and teases and things like that, and we
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: were supposed to pick something we were an expert in,
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: and everyone wanted to do HGTV. It had just started,
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: so everyone was like interior design expert. And I was like,
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm an Ivy League English major. I'm not
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: going to do a show about like literature. So I
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: just did a make Chicago Bears football show and it
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: was not for any purpose other than to practice. And
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: the teacher said afterward, okay, so you want to get
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: into sports, and I said, oh no, there's no women
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: in sports. And there's like a couple of women. They
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: look like supermodels on the sidelines. They don't get to
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: be funny. That would be funny. She said, well, I
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: mean it seems very natural for you.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: You could try it.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: So I took a class in TV sports reporting at
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: UCLA Extension, so you know, available to non students, and
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden, it was like the heavens opened up.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh shit, this is writing, extemporaneous thinking,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: interview skills. I've been a Division one outlet, I've been
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: an athlete my whole life. I've been in locker rooms,
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: I've been around people.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Why didn't this occur to me?
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: And the reason it didn't is because there was like
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: so few women that, despite my love of sports and
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: my interest, no one had ever recommended it, mentioned it,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: thought about it.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: It's not crossed my mind.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: And so when I decided to give it a shot,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: I realized how natural it was and how it was
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: kind of bringing together all these skill sets and it
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: felt to me like something I could earn way more
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: so than acting. Acting kept feeling like, who do you know?
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Who have you met?
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: What dickhead do you have to pretend to like and
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: be nice to even though he's and in my case,
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: some of the people I met gross racist, sexually harassing,
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: unimpressive morons that I'm supposed to be.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, you're amazing, I go. Can I be in your movie?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And sports felt like I know this stuff.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: If I work at it, and I learned my craft
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: and I study, I can work my way toward the
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: way I work toward Cornell and something else, you know, Right,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: And it just became a fit. And as soon as
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: I really put my mind to it, it started clicking
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: in a way that felt really natural.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: You did enter a world that wasn't the most welcoming
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: one to women, I'm going to guess, and yeah, what
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: was what happened?
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: That was a wake up call? Yeah?
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: Actually, and I admit now to such naivete But my
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: parents are lawyers. They had a law practice together, they
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: still do so they are partners. In fact, originally after
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: law school they worked somewhere that was allowing my dad
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: to become a lawyer and was making my mom be
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: a paralegal. And so they left and started their own
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: firm and said she went to law school too. We're
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: going to be equals and partners. So I got raised
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: and it wasn't like hammered home, but it was just
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: so clear to me. There was no question that, Oh,
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: whatever I want to do, I'm going to be able
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: to do it, and I'm going to crush it.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Put something in front of me, I will crush it.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: And you know, I was very privileged growing up in
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: the suburbs of Chicago, going to Cornell. I'm full of
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: opportunities to get the things I want if I just
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: work hard for them, right, And all of a sudden,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: I get thrown into it. My first big job where
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: I'm on camera and working as talent as opposed behind
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: the scenes, was for a startup website in Chicago. I
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: was in the locker room for a handful of teams.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: My first time I didn't have to do the like
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: work in a small market and record your own things
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: and then send them in. I got to, you know,
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: really get this great opportunity in a big market in Chicago,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: and I was treated like crap. Everyone assumed I was
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: there trying to sleep with the players. Everyone assumed I
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: was a moron. I got so much judgment walking into rooms,
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: and it was I couldn't win. If I came in
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: in a baggy shirt, the comments on the internet were,
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: are you fat or pregnant? If I came in with
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: something more form fitting, it was, she's trying to screw
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: all the players.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: I'm six feet tall, I have big boobs.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: If I walk into a room, I can't really impact
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: how people see me, but I stand out, especially if
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: there's zero other women.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: In the room.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: And so very early on I dealt with all the
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: stuff that I had read about that I somehow thought
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: I would be impervious to. Oh, but it's not gonna
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: happen to me. I'm smart, I'm a d one athlete.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: I'm coming in, I know my stuff. No, I still
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: got treated just as shitty as everyone else. And it
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: really required some good pep talks from some mentors in
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: the business, and the best was Steve Cochran, a longtime
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: radio guy. I went to him basically in tears, and
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: I was like, I am being treated so crappy and
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: it's so unfair. I haven't done anything to deserve this.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: I had some people behind the scenes. There was one
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: woman who worked who said that someone in the cubs
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: had said I was distracting because of my Boobsfully, she
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: was in the room and she said, what she's supposed
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: to do like hang them up outside and pick them
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: up on her way out like it was. It was
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: I couldn't win. And so he said, just be so
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: good they can't say no to you.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: You just have to make the work so good that
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: it is not a question of whether you should be
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: quote unquote allowed.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: And that's what I did.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: I just put my head down, worked as hard as
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: I could, made myself stand out for the stuff I
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: was doing. A lot of it was bringing my improv
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: sensibilities to bring out the personalities of the athletes I
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: was interviewing, which the fans loved and hadn't really gotten
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: to see much of.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: And eventually, yeah, I got noticed.
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: Enough to work my way up ESPN and be on
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: outside the lines and beyond Sports Center and be in
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: these places and going back into those same locker rooms.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: All of a sudden, Oh, okay, you're really I saw
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: you on that show. You're really smart, you know your stuff. Yeah,
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: I always was.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I love that advice that you got,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and I love that you were able to use it
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: in a way that ended up being contributing to your success.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: But and I know you're going to agree with me
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: before I even say it, but I think what's unfortunate
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: when it comes to you know, anytime, whether it's about
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: gender or race or fill in the blank, you have
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: to be better. You have to be really good to
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: be basically accepted as average.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: Well, you're assumed beforehand to not be good enough and
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: to default, and then are assumed to belong there until
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: they prove that they're not.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And it's a bullshit from the beginning.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: It goes without saying pretty much you were covering male athletes,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Is that right? Because hey, who was covering women's sports?
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: I was covering predominantly men in I was covering only
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: men really in that first job, and then started with
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: the ESPN one thousand, the local radio show radio station,
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: and that was all men. You could barely squeeze in
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: effect about Serena Williams winnings.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, which is that was?
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: That was about it?
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Which is studying right, like you know that we have
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: to squeeze in Serena Williams, like you know, one of
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the greatest athletes of all time.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: What I found there was like early on, it was like, Okay,
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: I need to prove that I can just hang with
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: the guys, like I need to be someone that they're like, oh,
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: Sarah Spain, she's awesome.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Let's go grab a beer with their talk sports.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: And I wasn't there for too long before I realized
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: that I wasn't okay with just that and taking my
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: little spot. I was the first woman on the air
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: in eleven years every day, and I was like, I
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: shouldn't be grateful for just that. And so every once
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: in a while, even though I was supposed to just
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: come and do updates every half hour fifteen minutes, like
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: tonight the Cubs take on the Reds, it's a seven
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: pm start, I would turn my mic on every once
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: in a while when I would hear the host talking
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: about women in certain ways and just a little bit
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: of pushback, always funny. I use my background in comedy
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: all the time in my business to make sure I'm
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: not emasculating people outright.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying.
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: Clever, quippy things that are pushing back on them, constantly
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: degrading women. It was always whether she lost her fastball
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: or whether she was hot.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: It was the only two ways women would come up right.
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: And eventually, I not too long into my I think
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: a year and a half maybe I got hired to
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: work for espnW, which was just launching, which was geared
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: toward female athletes and sports fans and allowed me to
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: do a lot of the work I was doing still
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: covering men's sports, but also have this outlet writing about
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: reporting and telling stories about women athletes. And so I've
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: been doing that now for two decades and two decades plus,
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: and that has always been a huge place for me
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: to feel like I was getting so much satisfaction out
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: of a job, not just talking about who had the
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: most home runs or who should be the NBA MVP,
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: but really doing all this intersectional work. And that was
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: the groundwork for this new iHeart women's sports, this network
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: of shows and the work I'm doing now where I
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: get to do it daily full time, which is awesome.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's astounding astonishing. And also, I mean those twenty
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: years it's hard to I know, to answer this question
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: concisely because it's a long story, but if you had
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: to sum that up, you know that journey from you know,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: walking into that locker room and being told that your
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: your booths are distracting and being you know, a key
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: part of a sports a women's sports network, like how
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: has how has coverage of women's sports evolved over these years?
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: I think the the biggest things are Number one, expectations
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: for gender in society have changed significantly. There's much less
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: of a straight up here's your lane, here's your lane,
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: whether that's LGBTQ plus representation, whether that's just non binary
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: or more masks or feminine presenting women. We're just allowing
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: women to be multi dimensional in a way that was
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: not a thing, whether that's the people reporting on screen
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: or the people competing. And the authenticity that allowed these
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: women to show made them much more interesting and relatable
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: and fun and cool than when it was like, let's
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: put all the WNBA players on the code of a
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: car saying like we got next.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Even if it didn't feel.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Authentic that which actually happened, It actually was how they
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: hypothetical early on, Yeah.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: A bunch of lesbians and haltertops being like, hey, guys,
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: we got next.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Somehow that wasn't exactly the appeal they wanted. So yeah, just.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: Letting people be queer or straight, or a villain or
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: funny or all these things opened up so many doors,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: and I think that's just society in general, and then
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: it leaked into women's sports. Secondarily, there are gatekeepers across
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: the industry that had the major decision making power to
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: decide what they thought the world was interested in. Editors
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: at newspapers, program directors at radio and TV, and they're
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: predominantly middle aged white men, saying here's what people care
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: about the four main major men's sports, and maybe occasionally
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: golf for tennis or something. But to never have the
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: door a jar to potentially see the really great stories
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: in other sports, particularly women's was to say, for everybody,
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: you don't want this.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And then when social.
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: Media came around, those gatekeepers weren't in charge of who
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: were creating content and who was following that content, And
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: what became clear was people wanted US women's national team soccer,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: people wanted WNBA, people wanted NWSL, people wanted more stories
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: about women athletes. And instead of those people being able
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: to say no, we're not covering that content. Creators rose
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: up and made that content, and then it was just
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: clear to anyone in power, we're missing out on major
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: opportunities here by not covering, and those investments early on
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: espnW and we need to talk and things like that
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: really changed the game.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: I think those are the two biggest. The other one
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: is streaming services allowing for.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: There not to be a competition where we choose between
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: men's sports or women's sports.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: You can go watch your women's sports.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: You got to find it on Peacock and paramountains, you know,
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: everywhere streaming. But once that starts to blow up, now
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: we give more opportunities on primetime, you know, regional and
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: national networks as well, so that investment could come not
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: at the expense of men, but in addition to in addition.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Imagine that that there's room for all of us.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: You know, one thing, I live in Portland, Oregon, and
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: in the neighborhood where there's this wonderful place called the
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Sports Bra.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Have you heard about this?
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, any win, Jenny Win.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: And so it's it's just like a ten minute walk
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: from my house. So I go and have lunch there
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: and when I the first time I went there. What
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I was so struck by, which is something that had
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: never directly struck me before, is I looked around. There
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: were five TV screens, all of them playing silently, all
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: of them featuring a different women's sport happening, and I
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: realized that I had never seen that before. And how
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: many restaurants and bars I've been in over the course
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: of my life and there's that silent screen and there
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: has never been a woman on it. It's always sports
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: played by men. And it really moved me, and it
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: does seem to be so much of the problem is, like,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: you know, we can't support and become invested in and
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: fall in love with what we can't see, what we
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: It's been really frustrating how often that argument has been used,
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: where folks will say, well, if you like it, why
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: aren't you all watching it?
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: If you like the WNBA, why aren't all the women
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: watching it? How do we find it? Where's the money
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: invested in it?
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: When we go this was decades ago when it started,
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: the value add is clearly not the same as going
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: to like an NBA game, So we're already being front
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: this isn't worth as much this isn't as good or
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: as cool, and then we can't talk about it the
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: water cooler. It doesn't show up in pop culture. It's
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: not something our boss decides that the whole company does
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: for an outing. We are being over and over and
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: over again told this is not something you should care about,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: and then we're being asked, why don't you care about that?
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: And when you put literally anything behind it. US women's
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: national soccer team, the ninety nine ers, you know, a
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: variety of Olympic events where we actually get coverage, where
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: we get told the stories and then we care. It
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: could be curling, it could be anything. If you tell us,
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: and then we learn enough to get the star Stak
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: stats and stories to follow along, we're into it. And
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: so that was not happening in any space for women's
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: sports for such a long time. In fact, the well
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: was being poisoned when the WNBA started. Prominent ESPN talking
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: head men were saying it was a joke. It was
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: the punchline on late night talk shows. The idea that
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: empowered women who were making a living for themselves, who
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: were competing in something aggressive and physical, would be mocked
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: by men because it was so it was offensive to them,
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: or it was challenging or to masculated them that women
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: would be in quote unquote their space is so lame
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: and tired, and I think society is finally at a
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: place where we're calling out men, like why do you care?
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: Why are you on a WNBA message board wasting your one,
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: wild and precious life to make fun of women athletes?
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: What if this was your sister?
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be cool if your sister was in the Olympics?
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Why is that not?
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: Like? Where does where? Does that miss? And so I
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: think that's changed a lot. And I mean I urged
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: so many people, especially if they're listening to your show
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: and they're not regular quote unquote sports fans, to go
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: to a women's sporting event and experience what you felt
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: at the sports bra because it feels so difficult. Emma Hayes,
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: the manager of the US women's soccer team, said, people
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: who go to ND sporting events feel cortisol. People who
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: go to women's sporting events feel dopamine. And that's the difference.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: It's like you're not fighting, everyone's note and shoving each other.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: It is inclusive and beautiful and inspiring and empowering, and
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: like so freaking fun.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: You just have to go try it.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: It's absolutely joyous.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: And you know, I agree, and you know, back to
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: our little ourselves as little girls. I mean I was
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: reflecting on before our conversation, like, well, who are those
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: first women athletes who are influential to me? I want
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: to ask you about that too, But you know, I
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: realized it was like, well, I only got to really
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: see women athletes at least on that that that national
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: or international stage every four years when the Olympics would
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: roll around. I mean there was it wasn't don you know,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: we just had network TV when I was a kid,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: and it was like, oh, you know, and even now
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: that that battle is being fought. I remember being a
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: teenager in nineteen eighty four when it was this big deal,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: you know, the women get to run the marathon at
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: the Olympics. This you know, a Joan vanoit won, and
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: it was like yeah, and I was a run I
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: was in track and cross country at that time, and
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I was so moved by that and I was like, oh,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: finally women are allowed to run the marathon. And this
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: is still happening. There are still events from which women
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: are excluded.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: On the in order not combined at just the most
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: recent Olympics.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: That's right, that's right.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: And you know, so this battle continues where it's not
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: even like can women The question isn't can they actually
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: do it?
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: Are we allowed to see them doing it?
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Right? Well?
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: And I like to say this because I can't believe
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: how recent it is, but within the last like fifteen years,
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: the head of the International ski Jumping Federation still said
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: women shouldn't ski jump because their uteruses will fall out.
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: This is the most over I have never heard of
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: a single uterus in my life falling out.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: And if it did happen, there would be a market
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: for you to try, because people would be missing them.
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: And it's never happened from horseback riding or marathon running,
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: or ski jumping, or soccer playing or football.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: And yet the pseudoscience that has been.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Carried along with women trying to compete since like hundreds
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: of years ago, oh yeah, is so persistent because it's
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: not about sports.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: It's about keeping women in their lane.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: It's about telling them you should be home and barefoot
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: and pregnant, and the most important thing about you is
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: that your uterus is properly functioning, so you cannot put
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: it in harm's way. And also I remember reading this
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: once and I got so angry. The idea that women
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: being funny, if it takes the way from their attractiveness,
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: is so off putting that people don't enjoy it. So
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: women comedians must be funny, but never at the expense
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: of their esthetics, because that's their number one value. And
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: I remember Christopher Hitchens had written a story for Vanity
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: Fair called why women Aren't Funny my face.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I know, I know, we're getting rarely worked up.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: But it was literally about how like, we don't want
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: you to be funny because we need to know that
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: you're going to be caretaking and take care of our babies.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: And so I think the idea that like there is
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: so much deeply rooted patriarchal bullshit that has affected the
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: ability for women to just play, not to mention, compete
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: and thrive in me money is infuriating at every step
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: and knowing.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: That that's there with intention.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: I think that's another thing that I've been harping on,
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: especially in the last couple of years focusing on women's sports,
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: is how much people think the product is to blame
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: for it. Not being as successful as men's when in fact,
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: across history there are endless touch points of intentionally tanking it.
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: There was a there was a band for women's soccer
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: up until nineteen seventy no England, because there was a
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: game that drew more fans than the men's and the
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: men got so sad and pissy about it that they
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: freaking banned women from playing for.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: You know, decades.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: We're getting very worked up about this, but you know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: we've got to now take a deep, restorative, you know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: meditative breaths, because we're going to switch hats here.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: My dear Sarah's bain.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: You have got you've got the right you know, initials,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: because we've had some sugar too.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, great, it's okay, sugar, sugar.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Span, sugar spain, sugar be. We've got sugar straight and
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: we've got sugar spain.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to read this letter and you're going to
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: see why I chose up for you, because it's relevant
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: to our conversation. Okay, dear sugar, I'm a thirty one
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: year old woman who works in construction. I happened into
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: this profession after getting my BFA and painting and drawing,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: and I needed a job. A friend from high school,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: also a woman, had a small house painting business, and
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: I took what I thought would be a summer gig
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: with her, but I ended up staying for eight years.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Together with a small group of four or five other women,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: we expanded our skills and ended up doing home repairs,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: small construction projects, as well as interior and exterior painting jobs.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: The business explicitly build itself as woman led, so most
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: of our clientele were other women who sought us out.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: A year ago, my husband and I decided to move
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: to a new city where housing is less expensive and
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: where we can be closer to our families. I found
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: a new job at a more traditional company, by which
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: which I mean one that is run by men and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: that employees men almost exclusively. Of the ten employees, I'm
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the only woman. My boss and co workers have been
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: great overall, though at the beginning with some of them,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: I got the sense I had to prove myself in
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: a way that's only based on gender sound familiar. After
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: some initial feeling of being the odd woman out, I
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: now feel like a solid member of the team. My
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: issue is with a good number of our clients. I
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: wouldn't say I experienced sexism on a daily basis, but
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I experience it regularly enough. Sometimes it's as simple as
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: the skeptical or surprised way they look at me when
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I show up to do work that they obviously.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Think can only be done by men.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Other times they don't keep that thought silent, they say
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: it out loud, or they'll comment on my appearance. One
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: man said I had a nice figure, which I guess
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: he thought was a welcome compliment. Or they'll ask me
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: why a person quote like me would want this sort
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: of job, which they'd never ask a man.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: It's exhausting.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: There are days that I feel true, really proud to
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: be a woman in the skilled trades, especially when young
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: girls see me and realize they're capable of doing things
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: like literally knocking down walls, or older women actually cheer
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: that I, a woman, am there to do the work
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: they've only seen men do before. On those days, I
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm contributing to change in a positive way.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: But other days I wonder about the emotional toll it
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: takes on me to have to carry this weight of
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: so often having to prove to others that I'm a
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: capable professional simply because of my gender. I'm not even
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: sure what advice I'm asking you for, Sugar.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: I guess it's that I'm.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Questioning how I might find a deeper sense of comfort
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: or confidence in spite of the rampant sexism that's still
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: all around me, or even if that's possible. Are my
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: only choices to accept things as they are or find
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: another job in another field. I miss my old cohort
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: of tradeswomen and the feminist customers who sought us out.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: But there's not a business like that of my new city,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: and I don't have an interest in running my own
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: business at this point? How can I find my even
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: this less woman friendly work environment? Signed Tradeswoman, That is
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: a that's made for you, Sarah.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, tradeswoman, I feel you. I have to tell you.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: I just gave a speech a couple months ago and
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: the man sitting down to me was also speaking, and
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: he was next to me and said, oh, how long
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: you've been at ESPN and sports stuff? I said, oh, like,
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: you know, twenty years. I said, oh, do you like sports?
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: And I was like, how am I still getting this question?
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: When I started? It was annoying, And now twenty years
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: in it's annoying. So I'm going to give you the
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: best advice first, and then I'm going to give you
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: some supplementary advice.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: The best advice is you.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: Cannot allow anyone to have power that you would not
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: ask for advice. So if someone is a person who
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: judges women as less than who thinks that women can't
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: do these jobs, then that's not someone whose opinion you
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: would ever value and think is a smart, inspired informed one.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So don't give them that power.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: I know Tina Fey and Amy Poehler are two people
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: who have said various versions of this, but never accept
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: a know from someone who can't give you a yes.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: If that person can't hire you, fire you, pay you,
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: tell you did a good job or not, then like,
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: why would you let them convince you that there no
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: means anything? So what I would say is community is
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: what allowed me to find that connecting with other women
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: and sharing our experiences, even the very worst experiences of
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: sexual harassment, of being disrespected, Because as soon as you
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: recognize it's not about you, it's about them, then you
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: stop internalizing it as having any value and you instead
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: draw strength from the fact that it is a universal
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: thing that you're going through and it means nothing about
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: whether you belong or not. And then the final one
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: is when I feel super overwhelmed, and it's usually from
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: doom scrolling, like if I'm scrolling and I'm like, oh
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: war oh sad monkey rejected by its mom. Oh you know,
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: dog got lost, and then you know polar bear on
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: the last ice float that exists, like I'll suddenly hit
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: a wall and I will have no recourse except for
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: to shut my phone down, and my answer is usually
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: something like donate money somewhere or sign up to volunteer.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: I need to do something proactive that I feel like
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: is counteracting what I'm seeing that I hate so much.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: So could she create a weekend workshop for young girls
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: to introduce them to the work that she does. Yeah,
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: so that tactile feeling of I'm changing this thing that
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: frustrates me. Instead of just digesting and receiving it, I
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: am putting out in the other direction energy towards something
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: that will make me feel good, even if it doesn't
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: remove those clients or change their opinion, it just feels
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: useful that usually to me allows me to give fewer
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: fucks about bad people. If I'm making the space that
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: I'm in feel different.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's all incredibly great advice, you know,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: and it boils down to that building community in any
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: way you.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: Can is so powerful, and it does.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: When you do that, I think you can work toward
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: its even that first thing you mentioned, which really boils
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: down to having more confidence, you know, being less feeling
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: less invalidated over time by those those sexist statements or
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: those looks, those expressions on the faces you know that
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: when people greet you. And it's brilliant advice. The only
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: thing I'd add to that, you know, from my own
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: experience as a writer, I can't tell you how many
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: times I've had male interviewers or sometimes male fans say
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: things to me like I've been like a live radio
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: where that you know, before we go live, the broadcaster
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: will say, oh my gosh, you know, I read Wild.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: I couldn't put it down. I loved it so much.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: And then we go live.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: And he'll say, Cheryl Drade has written a powerful book
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: for women. And you know, I was just like, I
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: finally got And what I did is I practiced saying
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: this because I didn't want to insult anyone and I
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: because I knew there was an ill intent.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: Sometimes there is ill intent, but sometimes there isn't.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: And I said, I am going to practice a gentle corrective.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: So every time a man said that to me, and
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I've they've said that to me in many different ways
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: hundreds of times, now I say, actually, I didn't. I
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: didn't write it for women. I wrote it for people.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's okay. There are some people who
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: do write books for women. My books I write for people,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: so you know, and a lot of men love my books.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: And so I actually learned how to say that out
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: loud in a calm and confident way. And so to
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: trades women, I would say, like, maybe think of like
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: a couple like a sentence or two you can say
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: to people, right that in some ways just addresses their
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: sexism in a way that doesn't make you feel uncomfortable,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: doesn't create conflict, but that is a corrective.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: And maybe some of those people will go, you know,
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: you'll you'll wake them up with that statement.
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, something as simple as oh, you'd be surprised how
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: many women are great carpenters, right, yeah, oh you'd be surprised. Oh,
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: in my old job, it was all women, there's so
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: many of us something throw away that doesn't sound too aggressive,
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: because again, part of the issue, and one thing, as
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: I mentioned earlier about using my sense of humor is
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: that feeling of someone getting emasculated. You don't know what
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: their response will be, So I think having a little
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: lightness about it, and to your point, practicing some things
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: that are very simple pushbacks but are not aggressive or
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: starting a fight, so that they might learn from it.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: And that's for me, how I've been able to change
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: a lot of minds in my industry is by being
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: funny and likable and smart, and they're rooting for me
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: in spite of themselves, so that when I tell them
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: they're being sexist or wrong, they're more likely to listen
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: to me than if they think.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I'm no fun, if I'm shrewd, if I'm a difficult woman.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: Right, And so I hate to have to give that
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: advice of like do it with a smile, but it's
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: a lot more effective.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it does, in the end feel empowering because
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: what you are doing is setting a boundary. And in
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: every context where I've had to learn how to verbally
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: set a boundary, it's so scary at first, but once
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I can learn how to say it, it becomes easier
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: to say every time.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: People are much more responsive if you are disappointed as
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: opposed to angry. So if it's sort of like, oh,
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: that's such a bummer to hear that you haven't had
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: any other women, tradeswomen, there's a bunch that I know,
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: hopefully you'll get a couple more great ones, right, as
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: opposed to I'm angry at you for saying that, because
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: then oh, I'm defensive.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Now, Oh I didn't even mean that, or what are
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: You're hysterical? Whatever men say?
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: Right instead of oh, I would think that you would
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: know that there's so many of us. Oh, you seem
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: like a smart guy, don't you know there's so many
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: of us who are great at this.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: So, trades women, we wish you all the best, and
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: we know you got this. And I guess by way
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: of one more bit of advice for her, Sarah, is
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: I'm curious about you. You know you are in your forties,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: is that right? I'm in my fifties and trades woman
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: is thirty one. And I think this idea of confidence
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: that you and I have both talked about, or learning
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: how to set boundaries, those things like I have to
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: admit I'm a whole lot better at that now than
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I was, you know, ten, twenty, thirty, forty years ago. Right,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: You learn as you grow, and that is one of
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: the glory things about life. And I imagine that that
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: confidence and strength and courage that you've gained over these
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: years contributes to your daily podcast, Good Game with Sarah Spain.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about, Okay, that's daunting to have something interesting.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: And new to say every day.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I'm curious about how you have managed that without fretting
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: about it too much and worried about whether's do you
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: frat and worry?
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: I don't at all.
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: I could talk to a wall for hours hours when
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: I was like seven. I was like, Mom, Dad, can
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: you get paid to talk? And they're like, not really,
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: and I'm like, well, let me show you. I was
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: worried at first about content, and we have no problem.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: In fact, our shows are much longer than they were
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: supposed to be. They were supposed to be around twenty
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: to twenty five minutes a day, and instead we are
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: often closer to an hour. There's so many new leagues,
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: there's so many stories to tell, there's so many athletes
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: so much history.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Part of our show is how.
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: Do we give you the history and the nuance and
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: the context so that you enjoy Angel Rees and Caitlin Clark,
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: but also know that the people that came before the
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: like Lisa Lee and Cheril Swoops and all these other
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: players helped create this thing that they're building on.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm more.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: Likely to be thinking how do we cut some of
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: this than where do we find more of it? And
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: I love creating a daily community, which is what's been
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: missing in women's sports, is the repetitive, everyday knowledge that
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: builds on itself so that people want to watch that
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: game or to turn on the TV and go, oh,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: this is the one where the teammates are married, or
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: ooh this is the one where the people playing each
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: other are divorced. Those stories that are so good that
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: we don't get in our everyday sports coverage.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: So you've made a lot of your own wishes come
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: true when it comes to women's sports.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: If you've got a couple of more like what would
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: they be?
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: I am constantly torn about keeping the space what it is,
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: which is so wonderful on its own, versus how do
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: we make sports be sports that are men and women
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: depending on which game you're watching, so that more of
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: it is can currently discussed. I want you to turn
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: on Sports Center and have it be just as likely
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: that the WNBA is a debate point and not just highlight.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: As now we're more likely to get.
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: One highlight or a quick thing and then a twenty
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: minute conversation about some trade that happened in the NFL.
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: I want more discussion, more debate, more watching of the
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: games and talking about the x's and o's, to give
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: people those things that they can grab onto and talk
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: about at the barbershop or the bar or the water cooler.
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: I think that's what I want most, is a little
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: bit more of hand in hand, Like if you love sports,
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: you love all these things. I still love my Chicago
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: Cubs and my Chicago Bears, and I watch them, and
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: I watch the WNBA and the NWSL and all the
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: other things. The way we watch the Olympics is a
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: great model. It's just, hey, did we tell you the
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: stories enough that you care?
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: On both accounts, men and women. And then I think
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: women athletes are finally getting their due when it comes
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: to pay attention media coverage like those things that they've
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: deserved for such a long time, and a lot of
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: brands are starting to realize they're better salespeople because they're authentic.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: They're deeply involved in their own social media in a
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: way that a lot of male athletes aren't. And the
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: representation in women's sports of every color of the rainbow,
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: every sexual expression, every gender expression like to me is
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: a beautiful way for the world to exist, and I
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: wish that that would spill out into the men's space,
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: where men could come out and be queer and be
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: professional athletes, where they could express themselves like you know
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: the Bear's quarterback Kleb Williams who paints his nails to
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: honor his mom and gets called names.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Because of it.
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: I want men to have the freedom to be authentically
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: themselves the way women are in women's sports space, and
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: for all of society to sort of just start to
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: buy in on a future that looks like that.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: I want all of those things too.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: So we have to close, but I cannot end without
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: asking you, because we are called mind over Mountain. I'm
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: curious if you can share with us what's the highest,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: hardest mountain you've had to climb or you could do
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: it one in the past, or or one that's ahead.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: You know what mountain are you? Are you STI trying
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: to climb ahead of you.
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: So I have to preface this by saying I'm about
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: the luckiest human alive.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: I'm in a knock on wood. But I've had.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: Such a joyful and privileged experience in life, and I
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: have faced very few big mountains. The one that is
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: persistent and is the most frustrating to me is a
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: lack of comfortability in my body. Despite being such an
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: empowered athlete. When I applied my body to sport, it
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: didn't worry about it.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: It gave me what I wanted.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: It was strong and fast, and I could jump and
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: throw and run and beat everybody in all the things.
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: But because I've never been rail thin, because I'm six
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: feet tall and I stand out and I'm not super overweight,
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: I'm just not one hundred and twenty pounds, And especially
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: in a business where being on TV, people are constantly
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: commenting on it, in a society, in a world where
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: people want women to be small, it has always been
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: tough for me to reconcile who I am in my
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: lif head and what I believe about how much time
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: I should waste in my one precious life worrying about
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: something I only have so much control over, versus the
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: inevitability of how I feel about how other people see me,
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: and how much time I've spent dieting and not eating
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: and working out NonStop to an end that was never
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: going to be what people wanted. I have had plenty
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: of eating disorder issues and working out NonStop, and I
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: still wasn't that skinny, Like if it's not going to happen,
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: I got a big old rack and I got hips,
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: and this is what I was. You know, thank god
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: some people like it. But I think the mountain for
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: me is like I'm forty five and I'm still doing this. Yeah,
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm considering GLP ones. I just would like
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: to know what life was be like if I didn't
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: have to think about it every second and work so
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: hard in what feels like a battle with what my
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: body's doing.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: It's not clearly.
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: Processing what I put in in a way that it
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: should compared to. I mean, for my entire life, I've
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: watched what my friends eat and do and been like,
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: why why why is this not working out for me?
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: I'm doing all the things.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: Times eleven, I used to bring vegetables to fraternity frat
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: parties instead of eating a burger, like that's so lame,
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: and it didn't work. And I think the thing that
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: frustrates me is reconciling what I know in my head
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: with what I feel, which is still this uncomfortable ability
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: in like not being a twig, and not because I
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: want to be small.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I have no interest in being small.
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: I just want to look perfect and close and never
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: have to put a pillow in front of my stomach
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: and never worry about anyone saying, you know, eat less,
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: try salad on the internet, even though I'm a vegetarian,
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: and like, oh, I eat a salad, So I think
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: that's it. And it's so lame that that's still my mountain.
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: It makes me so angry that that's still my mountain.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I just thank you so much for being honest and
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: really courageous, because I know exactly what you mean when
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: you say it's so lame, you know, And I just
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: want to say, that's a story that you told yourself.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: So not only do you have to feel shitty about
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: your body, you have to feel shitty about feeling shitty
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: about your body, and you have you know, spoken like
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: what what you have described is a journey I have
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: been on a long time too, and I really have
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: reached all the same places that you have and and
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: really with real frustration with myself too, like you know,
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: why am I still thinking about this? And also why
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: do I think about this even when it's contrary to
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: my values, like my genuine truth. You know, I do
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: not value women based on what they look like what
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: they weigh. I do not judge women based on what
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: they look like and what they weigh and accept myself.
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: I carry it around in myself all the time.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: And you know, I think that I wrote this in
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: one of my Dear Sugar columns a long time ago.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Is I do think that the body is the final
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: frontier for the feminist movement. And maybe there'srobably another frontier
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: beyond that, but it's one that we have, not that
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: we've where we just we're still lost in the wilderness there,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: and women and girls are are not being served by
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: any of the narratives about beauty and getting better. But
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: it's getting better, and there have been like you know,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: little but I think that this is if we're going
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: to be honest, you know. I mean there were times
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: in my life that I was like, I'm going to
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: pretend I feel great about myself and I have body confidence.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe you know if you if you act it,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: you know it will come kind of. But but I
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: think that that that's the truth of it. And I
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: think you as somebody who you know, are so intimately
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: engaged with every day talking about the things that women
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: the incredible epic things that women do with their.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: Bodies, and then there it is.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: You just describe the epic war that you have with yourself,
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: and all I can say, dear heart, is with you
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: in the struggle. And I don't know any of the
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how you get.
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: Up that mountain. I just I think it's one of
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: those mountains that shouldn't have ever been there to begin
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: with for us.
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, maybe go through it. Maybe I'll build a tunnel.
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: You spent too much time in Italy or the Olympics.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: I went through a lot of others.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: I went through it, not over him.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe it lets you know, you know, in or on
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: the West coast here with the volcanic mountains, maybe it's
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: like Mount Saint Helens.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Just blow it up when the blow.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: It up, and then you don't walk to the top
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: of it down.
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: You know, well, wow, you know it is.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: It's like I the deer, Sugar, and he wants to to, uh,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: you know, to offer you some advice.
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: But but what I can say is you aren't alone.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: And maybe that's always the best advice is to just
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: join hands and say I do think that the more
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: we talk about it and like bring it out into
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: the open and say that's what's there instead of pretending, uh,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: you know, change will come. We can only change what
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: we bring it to the light. And so you did
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: that here today. Dear Sarah, thank you so much.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: For coming on here having me. I can't believe I
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: get to be on your show. Such a joy.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Ah, I love talking to you.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: You are really such a wonderful person and your funniest
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: hell to So you can come and do stand up
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: in my attic y yes please, thanks so much for
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: being on mindover Mountain.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on Mind through Mountain.
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to submit a letter seeking advice, please
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: send it to me at Dear Dear Sugar at gmail
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: dot com and don't forget to rate, review and subscribe
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, Happy trails and I'll see
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: you next week. Mine Over Mountain with Cheryl Strade is
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: an iHeart women's sports production produced by Britney Brown and
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: Rodney Brown of Barbara Jean Productions. Supervising producer is Kaylin
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: West at REALM. Associate producer Amaya Brathwaite. Our executive producer
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: are Molly Barton, Jerry Carreta, Grace Views and Jesse Katz.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Our theme song is composed by Gramoscope Music.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: your podcasts, Happy trails and I'll see you next week.