Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Crafting Competitive Choreography: Insights from Industry Leaders

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Crafting Competitive Choreography: Insights from Industry Leaders · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: We all know it when we see it.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: A routine at competition that has all the right ingredients to take first place overall.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: More than likely, that routine not only has great dancers, an amazing costume, and a fresh new song, but it also has smart and effective choreography.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Today on Making the Impact, we're joined by two industry professionals that you, our listeners, requested to chime in on their choreographic process for competition.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Hello everyone.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Miller.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Here we are again, Courtney.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just like every day that we podcast, it's a great day.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's always a good day in podcast land when we sit down and get to chat dance.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we are very, very thrilled to bring a new episode to all of our listeners out there in the dance world today.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with two brand new guests, two of whom I'm so excited to meet and learn from and hear from.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And fun fact, these are guests that you, our listeners, chose.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: We have definitely been utilizing our Making the Impact Podcast community group on Facebook a lot recently to help us determine topics, upcoming topics that you want to hear, guests that you want to have on certain episodes that you want to hear.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: So make sure that to all of our listeners out there, if you're not in our Facebook community, be sure to join.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: You can click the link in our show notes or search it in Facebook, Making the Impact a Dance Competition Podcast community.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: We have a lot of fun polls that happen.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: You get to share your dancers' photos throughout the season and achievements, as well as let everyone know each weekend where you're heading for your next competition event.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's a lot of fun over there.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: So join us and thank you to all of our fans who helped us find our wonderful guests that are here.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, and we are about to jump into this episode.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: But before we do, let's hear from our sponsors.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Get ready to experience an extraordinary opportunity with Francisco Gela Danceworks as they present the New Century Dance Project, a vibrant celebration designed for aspiring choreographers and performers.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Over the course of an exhilarating seven-day festival, immerse yourself in the world of dance from the perspectives of both choreographers and dancers.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: This dynamic event features a comprehensive choreography boot camp, an exciting competition, and captivating concert performances.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Each day begins with a technique class, followed by a variety of interactive sessions aimed at enhancing your choreographic skills.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Participants will dive into essential topics such as compositional techniques, lighting design, and selecting the ideal music tracks to elevate your performance.
• 3:01
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• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: And don't miss out on our exclusive offer.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Save$75 by using our podcast promo code MAKINGTHEIMPACT in all caps when you register for this remarkable dance event.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Learn more on our website and register now at New CenturyDanceproject.org.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: In 2024, DECA Dance Competition debuted a new role at the Judges Table, a seasoned adjudicator just to monitor routines so that every single entry is placed in the best level possible.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: While DECA recognizes that commercial dance has evolved to include incredible acrobatic work, they strive to provide a fair competition environment where dancers without acro training feel like they have a fair chance to succeed in every dance category.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: DECA dance competition rules include a cap on acrobatic tricks in certain styles, and their three levels of competition are skill-based rather than determined by hours in the studio.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: DECA's Additional Judge carefully watches every routine to ensure all dancers are placed in the correct level and genre for their performance, and when a routine needs to be moved, they consult with the rest of DECA's 4 Judge Specialty Panel to confirm.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: This routine monitor is also DECA's designated special awards judge, which allows the rest of their 4 Judge specialty panel to focus just on adjudications and critiques.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: IDA will proudly supply judges at DECA Event in 2025, which include a fully sprung Birchwood Umara floor at every event and live critiques for soloists.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: We invite you to learn more about their family-friendly events at Decadance Competition.com.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's Decadance Competition.com.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Here's to another season of dedication, education, creativity, and artistry at Decca Dance.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Alright, Dance World.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: We are jumping into this week's episode.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really excited about this one.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: We have talked about choreography like crazy on the podcast.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: It is a huge part of the dance world.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you're a competitive dancer, you are probably presenting choreography on stage.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not just all about the dancers.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: The choreographers are doing a lot of work as well.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: And today we're talking about how to become a choreographer and the skills involved in creating a piece of choreography for the competitive dance stage.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: That choreography composition is what we're covering today.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: So if you have dreams of becoming a choreographer one day, then you better listen up because we have two pros in the industry and two brand new guests who are going to share their experiences as choreographers in the competitive dance scene.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: The first guest that I'm so excited to welcome to the podcast, I am meeting right here for the very first time, but I have been admiring them from a distance for a very long time.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: And also, I'm sad to say that our paths almost crossed last year teaching on a dance convention, but we were in opposite cities.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I've been loving their work and they are so experienced in this world from being convention teacher to dance educator to working with dance teams to being directors of conventions.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: They've done it all.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to welcome Eddie Strachan to the podcast.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Eddie.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, how's it going?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: We're happy to have you and thanks for squeezing this into your busy schedule.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: And um I also just want to uh mention to all of our listeners out there, for all of our Making the Impact community members, you all picked these two guests that we're introducing right now.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we did a poll and we asked, who are your favorite choreographers in the competitive dance scene right now?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: And our two guests today were brought up and selected.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I said, let's get them on the podcast and we made it work.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: So Eddie, so thrilled to have you here.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: If you could share a little bit more about you, where you grew up, any early dance training, career credits, and what you're currently working on.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I didn't start dancing till later.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was 13 or 14.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: My mom owned a studio since before I was born.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: I refused to go in because I was a baseball player, right?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do that.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So and then I got pulled in actually through gymnastics first.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: In order to continue tumbling, I had to take a dance class.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I started with tap dancing.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Private lessons only.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: As a teenager, I refused to go into a class until I could go into the advanced class.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: All the things that I would wish someone would tell me to do different now.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But in any case, then uh yeah, I ended up I was a cheerleader in high school dancing simultaneously, ended up at two different dance studios, my mom's and a what I would consider a more competitive studio in Southern California.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Got hired on to a dance convention when I was twenty two, which is now twenty years ago.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then that sort of spiled into you know, teaching, making more uh contacts in the world.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Those contacts led me to do choreography for cruise lines.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I did a couple shows and then convention director and now on to convention director as well.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then I kind of got into the dance team world through a friend of mine, and then through cheerleading background, meeting dance, sort of kind of understood the structure of it and rolled with that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm trying to just add artistry to that world, which we can probably get into later.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Cool.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that's awesome.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, you have really done so much in your career and have dabbled in a little bit of everything when it comes to the competitive space, the convention space, and now the dance team space.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: So excited to learn from you and hear your perspective on choreography composition.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for being here.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Our next special guest, like I said, is someone who was mentioned by our Facebook community as one of their favorite competitive dance choreographers.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: And they are bringing some contemporary to the mix over here.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, they are on dance conventions as well as teaching choreography at the university level.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I think they're the perfect guest for this chat.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm meeting them for the very first time, and I'm excited to connect.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so happy to welcome Azuki Umida to the podcast.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Azuki.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: Hello.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: Super excited.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for having me.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thrilled to have you here.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: I can't wait to learn from you.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: And if you could share with the world a little more about you.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: Side note, I love this podcast.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: I've been listening to it.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_04: So I just wanted to say I just love the dance community that you guys create.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like I'm like geeking out.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's so cool.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's fun to feel famous sometimes.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: I know, right?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm a Zoomie.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm from the Bay Area, and my choreographic journey has been really interesting.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_04: I actually was, you know, it planted a seed when I was around like 16.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: I started dancing when I was three, but I was like, oh, like this is really cool that I get to like create my own stuff.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: My senior year of high school, I hurt my knee.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: I tore all my ligaments on my left knee from doing like a flip.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so I had to get three knee surgeries.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so that was like a huge hindrance within my dance career.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: It was also when I was like trying to apply to you know colleges and everything.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_04: And at that moment, I was like, oh my gosh, like I just want to create.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like I want to dance.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna recover, but I want to go to a school that focuses on student choreography.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I uh decided to go to Chapman University, and Chapman provides so much student choreography that I just took it all in and absorbed all the information.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_04: And then uh fast track to now, I'm actually a uh choreography professor at Chapman University.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like a full circle moment.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: So cool.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so um throughout those years, you know, I have had the opportunity to set work for dance studios and companies and things like that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm at a place where I'm still learning, you know, there's so much to learn, and I get inspired by watching works and stuff too.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: That is so full circle.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's I think it's really obviously your program taught you a lot, but also saw your progress and saw how well-versed you are in that choreography process to want to invite you back to then teach it to the next generation and the the next dancers who are coming through the program, which had to have been the most amazing feeling for a choreographer.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, thank you.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, it was it was definitely like a full circle moment.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_04: So just chills everywhere when I found out.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's also really cool to hear that Chapman has that emphasis on like student choreography because I think there's a lot of dancers that are always wondering where to go.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's so many BFA and dance programs, but there's like not a lot of programs that specifically have choreography as a specialty that you can kind of you know focus on.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think there are, but there everyone's lost at navigating like which school that is and which one's the best one.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: So it's do you have anything to add, Eddie?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was saying I agree.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think the information and the information of what opportunities are out there, I think sometimes gets lost.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's they often focus on the stars, you know, like if your BFA program produced Kristen Chennewith like mine, that's who you that's what you hear about.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: You hear about the stars, you don't hear about the people who are kind of behind the scenes, which a lot of times is the choreographer.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so that is that is really exciting.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And now that our listeners know that Chapman, you know, really cares about that and values that.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: I think like what is very special about Chapman is they're actually just about to start like spring auditions, and they are producing at least 70 student works next semester.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's every year there's four concerts that occur, and it is a guarantee that whoever proposes a choreographic, you know, um idea that they will get into a concert and they get to cast.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I think the beauty of inclusivity in Chapman is it's very apparent.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I really, really appreciate Robin Kish, who is the chair, and Julianne, who is the past chair of uh Chapman, who's bringing that opportunity.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that's awesome.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I can't wait to chat, dance, and choreography for comp.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: So let's go.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's do it.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, guys, thanks again for being here.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait to learn.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: We've already, you know, I've I've already have some questions that even uh based off of what you guys have just said that I'm curious about.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to start first because we must start at the very beginning.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: How do you personally start your choreographic process?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you start with the movement?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you start with the music?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you start with a costume?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: We hear about all the ways people create.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious how y'all typically start, or does it does it depend on the situation?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll jump in.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes uh I do start with the music because just in what I'm doing, I rather than walking into a situation and saying this is what I'm doing, especially in dance studios and with these uh dance team scenarios particularly, uh, buy-in from the dancers themselves is gonna go a long way when it comes to competition because I've seen dancers do better simply because of the name of the choreographer they're doing the choreography of.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe increase their effort or buy-in, which shouldn't be the case.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone should get full effort.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Just note that dancers.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone should get full effort, but uh sometimes like the name on the piece or the song they're dancing to, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna do better because they believe in it more.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I t have taken the approach that I'm gonna present options or allow feedback.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually I will cut that feedback off if it gets out of hand, but kind of guide them to something that I think is going to do well for them in the competition space specifically, as opposed to you know, maybe in a university atmosphere, you know, having it be concept driven.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I there's more f freedom, I feel like, at times versus the specific competition side of things.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I do I personally start with music.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes I'll have an idea and then I'll try and find the music that fits the idea I'm hoping for, but generally that's me.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I agree with Eddie.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: I start with music as well.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: I'm a very musical choreographer, so the score of the music really dictates the score of my movement.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I, you know, I'm also at a place where negotiation has to be made, but also my final decision does come from myself.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it gets into a very sticky like communication sometimes of like, we want this from like as a studio, they're like, we want this, like what you did on Instagram like a few months ago, like we want this kind of stuff, which is great.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I love that.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_04: But it also is like, okay, I have to kind of channel back artistically.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, what did I do?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: How how was my process back then?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_04: But whenever I try to reminisce those um ideas and everything, I always ask my friends and peers who workshopped with me in the past.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: And that's another thing.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: Whenever I start a process, is before I go to a studio or before I start choreographing, I always have a friend or a peer just workshop with me, like for just like an hour and just like create with you know, no distractions, just trying to figure out different ideas and stuff, just so that we could kind of crank out some ideas, some movement vocabulary, so that we could put it in the back pocket of in a choreographic term, you know, motifs or different ideas that can be brought into the work.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's really refreshing to hear about the workshopping.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: I want to go back to the music really fast because I am chiming in as a guest choreographer as well as that's always what I start with.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: I have to be inspired by the music to be able to deliver my best work.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: So if I am not vibing with the song, and there have been many times where studios say, we want this song.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, Well, I hate this song, so we're or this song is overused, so we're not using it.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, my I also feel like it's my job if you're going to source me out and hire me that I need to bring in my professional experience into play.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're giving me a song that is overused, I can't, I don't feel comfortable putting my name on that because I already disapprove of the song.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I need to, I can then I go back and I start music hunting, which every list all the listeners out there, it takes forever.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: The amount of time it takes to find a song that inspires us and that also is not overused takes hours.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: So if And that's appropriate.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: And that's appropriate for competition for children.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I have to find something that inspires me, that has a good groove, that feels like in the vibe of the song that you gave me as an example.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: So that's number one for me as well.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I do think it's interesting to hear about the workshopping aspect because that every choreographer is different.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: And also to all of our listeners, like that's doing extra work, you know, to workshop, to get into the studio with someone else who's going to donate their time, possibly to just play around in the studio for an extra hour, two, three, to come to your studio with motifs and phrases already pre-prepared, plus the rehearsal time that it takes at the studio.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Think about how many hours that is, and then think about are we getting paid for all of that work probably?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and multiply it times how many pieces you're doing that for either.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll just do one piece a year.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like studios are like, okay, can you like set a piece in four hours and there's 15 dancers in it?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, who I've never met before.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, who I've never worked with before.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, it's not possible.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: We have to be realistic.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: And like the choreographic process takes time.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's another aspect too.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: The whole I've never worked with your dancers comes into play.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that plus what Azuki said of uh we really liked this piece that you did.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, A, it was most likely different dancers, of different skill sets, of different personalities, of with different ears that can hear the music either, you know, in a more advanced fashion, I suppose.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, well, and you as a choreographer, we're probably in a completely different headspace.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, your personal experience, our personal experiences influence what we do and what we put on a stage.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so let's say, you know, Azuki, I don't know what your life was whenever that was, but maybe it was like the worst time in your life, and somehow you produced this amazing piece, and you're like, well, I can't go back there and do that again.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: I've also received the we want something like this, and they send me someone else's work.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then I'm thinking, then let's just hire that choreographer.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why aren't you hiring them?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not them, I'm me.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you need to know what I'm going to bring to you.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: You need to make sure that the all of the teachers out there that want to bring in choreographers are researching them and understanding their style and making sure that that's going to suit your students and that's what you want to give to your students because each choreographer's voice is very unique for a reason.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: So to want me to like, and that's the hard part.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think our job as choreographers is to please the client.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, at the end of the day, they're our client and we're trying to please them, but we we still deserve to do it with our artistic voice and expression incorporated into it.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: I think the the separation of like business versus artistic in especially in like a dance studio or like setting work in like a business for me has been always a challenge.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: Just because I'm like, okay, at the end of the day, you know, this is a business and they want to present this work at a competition to represent this studio.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: So how can I do that?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel like they would know more just because they know the kids more than me.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: I say that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I do agree, I do agree at the same time that they were hiring.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: specific choreographer probably not blind so they've seen that choreographers work for what they have done and what they can do.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So to then you know if they're over the shoulder like dictating to the choreographer, you know, you I I feel like it's beneficial to let the choreographer do what they do.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then say in other rehearsals things need to be adjusted for whatever reason.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I I also wish people, you know, while it's a business 100% understood.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: I wish some of the people who hiring these choreographers also realize how personal it is for the choreographer.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it seems like a business like this is exposing and vulnerable because as you mentioned it's our name on it.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just an ego thing.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like there could be life experiences being put into this that we don't need to go out and explain to the dancers.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just like there's there's a lot going on.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's way more than just steps.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: And the amount of experience that you have or or the choreographer has in their professional career to have got them to that point to be hired by someone else there's a lot of blood, sweat and tears that have happened, but also like you are being hired for your professional experience and your your stamp of approval, your signature.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: So for you know we've heard so many times how people got get hired for choreography, but then half the dance is changed and it's like but then your name is still attached to it and it's confusing on on your on my end because I'm like so do you not trust what I present?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: Do you are you know what I mean?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like then why did you hire me?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: You could have done this yourself if you were just going to tweak it.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: Did you just want like a skeleton of a dance and then you want to like put like finesse and tricks in what you think is necessary because I presented to you what I think is necessary based on my professional experience.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously you weren't okay with that but that's a whole nother conversation of are we allowed to change choreography?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: And choreography has that's been in my life a lot lately.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: So let's keep talking about the process instead well so I want to go back to the beginning of the process.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know we're starting with music but I think for some people and you know Zuki it sounded like from early on in your your dance life creating something and choreographing seems like it might have come naturally but Eddie I'm curious did it come naturally to you and if it didn't or even if it does like where do you even begin?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I kind of want to discuss more of the like education version of choreography because there really is there there are some set formulas that you can use to like then go on and continue to be more creative.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: But where do you even start if it's not something that is innate to you?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, this this could be a while but I'll try and be concise.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I I didn't dance from the beginning so I I can't say it came innately but I it does come fairly easily I suppose but I would credit as crazy as sometimes dancers think it is cheerleading because on a very like basic level very basic level cheerleading like teaches the like bottom line visuals.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean basic like ripple left to right center to out levels whatever.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's basic.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like what makes something interesting and worth looking at and I I could take you to the fountains at Bellagio.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: If if you turn them all on full power and let them move around like it's impressive but it's gonna lo you're gonna lose interest because it doesn't change.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't change so what are we really looking for in life and in choreography my opinion I've boiled it down to the word contrast like contrast boom like it could be we call it textures we call it dynamics like but these are phrases that when teaching children or not professional dancers like they can't pinpoint what dynamics means.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: We shout it at them but they don't they don't they're like freaking out that's true.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I tried to boil it down to contrast and so that's where I start with contrast is levels high versus low contrast is tempo changes fast slow sharp soft curved linear together disjointed symmetrical versus asymmetrical like that can happen in a count that can happen in two counts that can happen in a phrase that can happen with somebody's music choice versus somebody else's music choice like everyone wants to make an impact and I want to stand out what they're asking for is they want to be contrasting the others in the competitive space or you know whatever it is.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I even tell the kids I'm like look you you go to school or you work day in day out day in day out you want a vacation you go on the vacation you're 10 days in you're like gosh I just want my bed I want my own bed because anything becomes boring per se if it doesn't change.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So then I took those ideas of you know you start with layering and ripples and movement quality and then studied choreographers studied life stud like you know any sort of analogy I could find to what makes something interesting to look at or to experience.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah that's kind of where I live with the word contrast.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love that the student to be a student of life I mean I think that's why travel is so important finding different spaces to be and do having different experiences because it is if you're doing the same thing day in and day out that's boring.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: So right.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know I don't know if that answered the question but it does absolutely yeah give me my control if if I get stuck I go back to contrast and I ask myself especially if there are lyrics or if I'm presenting a concept I I don't ask myself what should I do next I ask what would this look like like if it's a theater piece and it's a saloon type of scene what would that look like you'd have an entrance you'd have a cluster of tables you'd have an empty space you'd have traffic of you know if this is a scene about someone passing like what does that look like not should I do a turn because that's probably the answer's probably no the answer is usually no.
• 28:19
  unknown: Yes.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: The answer's probably no what does it look like to feel anxiety like truly look like like we've we've felt it what did we feel like so yeah what does it look like in contrast that's kind of where I live those words oh that's great.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: Well first of all I feel as though like I had a lot of passion going into choreography that I made a lot of trial and error.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: So I would say like I wasn't innately a choreographer and at start and I had to I had to keep trying and keep doing different things, keep doing different processes and stuff.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I noticed myself too um this kind of like a little bit of a tangent but I've noticed that I am a process based choreographer versus like a product based and I think that's really important to recognize for me to like let you know other studios know because I want to get to know the students so that I could kind of feel you know where they're at and everything.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_04: That being said like you know having classes before a choreography session would be more successful within that.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I've noticed myself having less creativity blocks because I kind of understand like how the dancers move if they do improv in my class like how the dancers move what their strengths are right away.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: But if I do have a block, I try my best to like take just time to isolate myself or be like okay take a 10 minute break you guys and then just not think about the dance for a little bit.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I try to not be on any like social media or anything.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I say that because I think we're really privileged to see so much and we get very overstimulated that I think I I personally get overstimulated with the amount of things that I create that I just need the simplicity for like a few minutes or even like you know end like the session for the day and just be okay I'm not gonna look at the piece.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not gonna you know pick and see what is wrong or anything and see work as a draft.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_04: And this is something that my mentor told me to like see everything as a draft and see everything as a research versus see everything as a product and that will give you more you know questions and wonders similar to what kind of Eddie said of like what if this happens rather than like should I do this I should do that kind of idea.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: So I think finding the gray area of choreographic processes is much more for me successful.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: But also like it it does become like okay it has to be this or okay it has to be that but I think finding the gray area as a choreographer myself of like what if this happens or like finding this like it's okay to like not know but finding the puzzle pieces throughout the process is important.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wow I love that just like approach it with curiosity and the way I always I didn't do a ton of choreography before I stopped but what I always thought was like just like sculptors like the final product is in there.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: We just have to find it and so that's not saying it is this.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's gonna be something I don't know what it is yet but like it's all in there as yeah maybe a way to not be so hard on yourself, you know, because I'm sure choreographers many choreographers out there are just like oh my God like it has to be right it has to be perfect.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: They've paid me you know and it it's gonna be fine.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: It you just have to get there, you know?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:55
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• 31:57
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• 32:07
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• 32:17
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• 32:27
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• 32:34
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• 32:57
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• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: So what are you waiting for?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: Click the link in our show notes or visit our website at Impactdanceedjudicators.com slash online critique to submit your dance today I feel like that that is one of the struggles that I find with I only do guest choreography and I feel that pressure of the product by the time I leave even though I I yes have I completed a dance from beginning to end.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes but it is still a draft to me and I know someone's gonna clean it but I'm not even talking about the cleanliness of the execution I'm talking about I want more time to sculpt the choreography.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: I want more time to finesse the details to change that ripple to change the timing or the musicality for that to adjust that transition that's not working.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: Those are choreographic elements it doesn't matter how much you clean it if those details aren't finessed and correct to create the final product then it's still kind of almost going to just be a draft and like sometimes I leave and I'm like oh man like I wish I I wish I could come revisit this in like three months because there's so many little things that I want to like adjust and tweak and like see how it's evolved.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: But most of the time I say bye bye good luck this season and like never see it again, you know?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: So there have and it's because we put so much time and energy in it and like we're really proud of what that product is at that time.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I feel that hard with the the draft aspect because I'm like man this is this is kind of a really good draft right now and I want to see the final product but I also want it to be my final product and unfortunately that's not the luxury that we have oftentimes as guest choreographers.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely yeah like we only have what two maybe one day to like you know put together choreography and I think it's just like trusting in yourself and trusting the process too.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah I mean I there's so much that I want to change at the end of the day but also it's like letting them just do its work and letting it you know digest too.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also really glad that you mentioned the whole like and we briefly hinted at this earlier but the whole if you don't if you've never worked with the dancers and the process aspect like I just want to reiterate to studios out there that it's a very hard job for someone to just walk in and create magic on your dancers that they've never seen or worked with before.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: And like I have gotten to the same point Azuki where I need a class if I've never worked with you.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: And a class means an intimate class, not a convention class because that is there's a hundred kids in class and they're like oh they love your style yes like okay well I need to see how they're doing because I don't know which dancers you're talking about and then every studio they love it.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's everyone loves it.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: But can are you executing the style properly and then I need to see what their technique level is like because I then have to figure out how can I make them look great in my style.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: And does that mean I reel it back a little bit and can like you know make it a little bit more simplified so the style can work for this level age technique ability of these dancers.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a very, very hard job and I I encourage studios to allow a guest choreographer to have a class with your students before they jump intoography right away because it's really beneficial.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think sorry I'm gonna jump on that one too.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do it the hard job continues especially in this dance studio or whatever competitive side of things in us being there for a limited time and then feeling the energy or the pushback of people being in quote unquote the wrong spots in the formation.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah like I have I have limited hours to do a whole piece which means I have a fraction of that time to decide who goes where.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then on top of that with the way I stage things happen.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's no there's no plan.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's overall traffic patterns that look great in their you know manipulation of the different shapes or whatever.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: And people end up where they end up.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can you keep an eye on it?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sure but you know to to then feel that energy of oh she shouldn't be there.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well I mean that dancer is that that answer is there and I think they look good and I think the overall movement looks great.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: So and I had this much time to figure out who that that person or these and not everybody can be everywhere.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It just is what it is and it's I tell them there's not there's not 15 front and centers.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: Correct yes and like and you're looking at it from the choreographic uh view of a how a transition needs to move based on where you were before to create the visual as a choreographer that you want to achieve it's not about how do I get Susie in front center.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: If Susie's in back corner and they end up front center then hooray the the transition worked out but I think that people sometimes think that okay well they're the best you know they're our strongest dancer so why aren't why are they in the back?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's what the transition visually needed to make happen.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna make Susie be the only one that's like cutting halfway across the stage and ruining the visual of the transition.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's part of the choreography.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well and so speaking of sort of that world I'm curious you know obviously we have a lot of we have all kinds of people who listens to listen to our podcast and people who choreograph for different ages and different levels.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share some some sort of inspiration for choreographing for different levels?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because as we've all discussed, you know, sometimes you do show up at a studio and you've been told one thing.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: You've these are our advanced dancers.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well what does that mean?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you are presented with a group of students that are not as advanced maybe, but you still have the task of making them look amazing, what what are some sort of tips and tricks to choreograph for levels that are not at the professional level?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_04: Oh that's a that's a good question.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: I love it.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's a tough one.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: It's hard yeah I think looking in again like looking into the the students and the kids that are in the piece and like when you teach well what I do is I teach like a phrase and then kind of just assess from there.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_04: So I kind of teach a phrase that is kind of like yeah intermediates can do it and yeah advanced can do it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: And if they're like good and everything I'm like okay I can move forward and you know trust their kind of work and they could do what I what I could do.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: But within intermediates I feel as though that's like okay that's a way for us to collaborate and have more growth into the process and and they could do it.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_04: I think it just takes time.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I would need to like practice my patience and find my opportunity to provide easier I think with like these uh students I usually do visuals more of like a roll off or more simple ideas but more effective formations and ideas and everything.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's exact I mean that's one of the things that I was thinking that would come up is, you know, you can you can have an effective concept without using highly advanced skills.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you can make something look amazing that doesn't contain very much, which is going to then guarantee that they look good.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is the key, you know, for me in the intermediate more beginner level it's like you don't have to have and this is for everyone who's listening to hear me, you don't have to have all the tricks to have a successful piece, to have an impactful piece.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: The visual aspect of what we're looking at is sometimes the most clear, effective piece of work, you know?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: Visuals and timing.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely I think I agree with Zuki completely.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: I always start with some sort of phrase uh just to get everyone moving kind of assess and then you can ratchet it up from there.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we're not I guess the word ratchet is taken different, but crank it up from there.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: We we know what you're jumping from there or reel it in.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah I think choreographing for intermediate dancers or non-advanced dancers or younger dancers is massively beneficial to choreographers for staging and visual purposes because that is where you need to live and I see a lot of choreographers or a lot of aspiring choreographers sort of instantly claim that I only teach advanced dancers or whatever.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: But then there are plenty they might have the ability to create a great combo because I don't claim to be the coolest mover on the planet but like a combo you know that gets posted on social media is does not a piece make because there there are people that have great movement but to understand not only visuals and staging or other elements of like just effectively adding on because you can have a combo and make it look great where you add on one two different various locations or subtract or insert pause and whatever but also take it to literature like that that have a proper intro that have a rising action that have conflict that have climax that have falling action yes and all these things that we would expect in a complete thought or a complete piece per se because people can fall into like a very monotone tone.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you need I can call it contrast but you need the rising action the peace the fall um and those things you don't need technique or special you know fancy skills for yeah it would obviously you know be helpful like the more advanced musicality or quality of movement is great and helpful but you can still experiment as a choreographer with a lot of these elements or building blocks with the younger dancers and come up with something effective for them.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it would be beneficial to a lot of people to to choreograph on intermediate or younger dancers.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah it's a challenge it definitely is and the the whole I'm really glad that you brought up the Instagram combination versus understanding how to craft a choreographic piece because there's a lot more elements like we're talking about today and we keep bringing up the word staging and contrast and arcs and and ripples and formations and transitions that's choreography.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: All of those all of those ingredients are what help create that phrase that you've created that you love so much that you have beautiful movement quality but you can't just create many combinations and put it on stage.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's more to it like you can start we and like we've all said and I'm the same I'm in an agreement I start with a phrase I see how they do then we then we branch off from that then I create levels.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna do the same thing but uh back lines up or we're gonna do the same thing and Drop down, or I'm gonna hold that and then ripple in and use the musicality.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can build off the phrase, but you can't just create a class combination and then say, now march to your next formation and then let's do another phrase of choreography.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's there's more of a process to that and understanding all of those different ingredients to incorporate into choreography to make it essentially become an award-winning dance, hopefully.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then also understanding who your audience is, because you could be in competition, but one competition is not the next competition.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And just to stick with the staging thing for a minute on that thought is when it comes to dance team world, not many people think about this, but it's it's a game changer.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: There are no wings, and the dancers are not allowed to leave the floor.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: There is no on and off exit.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have 20, they're involved the entire time.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: You have 20.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get to break it down to a trio and let everyone stand around.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like no.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's so that's so interesting.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't know that.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Without yeah, without that sort of safety net of, okay, we'll you know, take them off stage and the three best ones, you know, doesn't exist.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so I'm glad you brought up um dance team because you know we attract a lot of competitive dance listeners, but a lot of our listeners also, there are dance team listeners.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are people who go on to do concert dance and ballet and all kinds of stuff.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: So why how is the how is the choreographic process or like what are the expectations, how are they different in the competitive world versus some of the other worlds?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we listeners and spectators get very caught up in, you know, who wins what and why everybody wants to analyze.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, why did that win versus that?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes people think it comes down to there's got to be a formula, you know, for the winning numbers.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: And do you thoughts and feelings?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me more.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I've only done two dance teams to be really transparent with you, and it's a whole different monster for sure.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like I have to really prepare myself with like formations and making sure the music is appropriate.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't know that there are rules to like movement, so you can't do like certain tricks and things like that, which is really interesting because I know that you know, within dance competitions, there's not really a whole lot of like you can't do this or you can't do that.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_04: So the rules.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_04: So the restrictions for me has been really an eye-opening experience.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I think those for me, within the experience of dance teams, those were like moments of like uh studio or um dance team owners being like, you like we want this from this idea.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a challenge for me, you know?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I am not necessarily like a technical dancer as well, but I love the collaboration that I able to I'm able to say, like, hey, could you just like do this?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: And then they're just like poof, like they could do all these turns and stuff like that.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_04: But again, I feel as though like in I am still like diving into it a little bit more.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_04: And it's for me, it's like a new uh new world because I'm so used to the dance competition.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_04: But I feel as though like very similar to you know other choreography processes, like I need to workshop to make sure like it's clean, the movements are like satisfying in a way that I could see the shapes.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_04: I've noticed myself like whenever I do these dance studio or dance team works, like it's a little more like two-dimensional so that they could see the shapes rather than like these uh three-dimensional because they need to be clean, they need to be tight.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_04: So um just putting that out there as choreographers of like what Eddie said too, like knowing your audience and knowing where the judges are looking too.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I know I I I'm not quite sure if this is correct, but I know that I heard that like the judges are more like towards the back of when they're competing.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_04: So just knowing that of like how can you create a choreography that is visually pleasing but also very effective.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_04: And knowing myself as a choreographer, I'm much more intricate with my hands and my gestures.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I know that that might be not as effective in comparison to, you know, like dance teams and uh needing more big movement and stuff.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_04: So makes sense, yeah.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's correct, absolutely.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because the judges do sit up high and back.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: So oftentimes I'll be in a space, call it a gym, because it is like up in the I have them pull out the bleachers and I'll be up in the bleachers watching from there.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: But even to take it to dance studios and stuff, like knowing your audience, like the where the judges are, but I will even go into a studio and ask them where they compete because a straight up dance competition is quite honestly, they it it should in theory be universal, but it's not is going to judge different than a dance convention.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oftentimes.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then one dance convention is going to judge different than the next dance convention, yeah, based on who's sitting on the panel.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that sort of for me dictates you know what needs to be done to quote unquote maximize the score sheet.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's correct.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like some movement in the dance team world, if it's too intricate, is just too too hard to clean for those particular dancers.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: I do reference oftentimes though, shows like you know, competitive shows like maybe World of Dance or like uh hip hop international type of scenario where they're they're not the choreography is pretty intricate, and cleaning doesn't mean taking the life out of it, it just means doing it the same as the person next to you.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's just you know who which what dancers can actually get there because execution travels across all score sheets, you know.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: So simple simplicity and cleanliness will, you know, sometimes catch up with intricate.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's yeah, knowing when and where and audience and judge placement and all those things.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Completely agree.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: That is a really great point, and I think it's important for for studio choreographers to hear about the cleanliness and the execution because I've seen as a judge, I've seen really beautiful choreography that I can I can see is there, but the execution's not there, and it and it won't get there just based on the dancer's technique level, unfortunately.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's going a little bit over their head, but I like what I'm watching and I like that we're pushing them for the challenge.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: But unless you have enough time to really clean this and to really, you know, drill this dance, it's no matter how good the t the choreography is, it's not going to place where you probably want it because you just haven't cleaned it well enough, or the dancers just aren't in ballet enough, or whatever the reason is.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, you know, it doesn't matter how good the choreography is sometimes because execution is in in the hands of the the studio and the dancers and who's cleaning that dance.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then that's a hard thing for teachers to think about.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't matter if it's a guest choreographer or a home choreographer.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes our passion might like overtake what we're who we're working with and and that final uh product that we're trying to get out.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we might have this idea and we might want to throw a shum-ta-ta-ba-da-da-da-da.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: And the dancers can't do the shum-ta-ta.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: And we have to scale it back a little bit and realize, okay, they're not grasping this musicality.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: They don't have the textures, the contrast, whatever it is.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: Let's simplify it.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'd rather it be a little bit more simplified, and maybe I have to like, you know, not have my choreographic voice be as loud and proud, unfortunately, because I need to make my dancers look really great when they go on stage.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I think the like the draft aspect and like the editing can happen throughout the season.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you're watching something and they're still not really getting it, and you love this phrase, but like the musicality just they can't, they're not like pers the precision isn't there, then it's not going to read to the audience.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then we have to figure out how can I make this look, you know, more streamlined and more cohesive.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's a hard job as a choreographer to make those choices and know when it's time to scale back because a lot of us shoot really high, and then we have to kind of be like, all right, it's competition time and it's still looking a little crazy.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: So how do we fix this, you know?
• 52:48
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• 52:58
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• 53:07
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• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: Participants will engage in a variety of topics such as compositional techniques, improvisation, music selection, lighting design, and so much more.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: If you are an aspiring choreographer ages 15 and older, and are ready to take your composition skills to the next level, we invite you to join Francisco Vela and faculty at their beautiful Santa Fe, New Mexico Intensive from July 28th through August 3rd, 2025.
• 53:39
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• 53:45
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• 53:51
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• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I just want to say my disclaimer at this point.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's important for people to realize like if they make the choice and want to dance and compete for what I feel is the true goal, which is education and growth in the dancers we work with, then if they do, and a lot of people don't want that, you know, that there is a trophy involved in it, but and if that's the goal, that's a different story.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: But for the growth and use of stage time and ex exposure to an environment of live performance, and they want to allow it to, you know, potentially fail, whatever their definition of fail is, then that's fine.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so back to like who wins first and who wins second, maybe that second place or third place or high gold, maybe they're learning and maybe they are the ones that won.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds idealistic or or whatever the case may be, but I know plenty of dancer that never won that have fantastic careers.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: So in my opinion, they won because you know they graduated with a work ethic and a desire and a concept of time management.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just want to throw that out there because you know, if you're maximizing a score sheet, it's one thing.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if we're educating good dancers and good human beings and molding, then that's I don't know.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just want I just wanted to say that I'm Yeah.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's excellent.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_04: That's I want to chime in too, like within maximizing your score sheets, like there are some score sheets where because I've been to different and you know, participated in different competitions, there are sections where there's not a choreography like score.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_04: Correct.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_04: So and like utilizing that as a way to recognize, like, okay, then what is our audience and researching like different conventions and competitions of like what they're looking for?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_04: So if you have more of like a, you know, more choreograph choreography artist artistry based dance, it's not necessarily going to be, you know, you never know what's gonna happen within your scores.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_04: And they might focus more on the technique, they might focus on the musicality and performance, but not necessarily on the choreography, which for me, like as a choreographer, is like, oh, that's a bummer, you know, to like not put choreography on it.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_04: But also at the end of the day, like it's only three judges in, you know, if of what they're looking at.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, for a next competition, it's another three judges that is completely different careers potentially.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_04: So recognizing that and knowing where, you know, you're presenting your work is important too.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad that you brought up the the whole aspect of choreography being eliminated from score sheets because I do think that it is sad to see that happening in our industry.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: It is a collaborative process between dancer and choreographer.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, the dancers didn't create this dance to come out there and and do it themselves.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: Someone gave them this material, someone chose to put them in this costume, in this transition, in this formation, in this style of dance.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, they're doing their technique and they're working hard and they're doing their performance and their execution, but there's sometimes we have to admit, and like this isn't a knock to choreographers, but like sometimes the choreographer isn't working for the dancers or whatever it may be, maybe it's too advanced, maybe it's too easy, maybe it's too simple, like whatever the case may be.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: And people are probably wondering, well, why isn't this dance there, you know, they look uh blah-buh-bh-b.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we can't really talk about the choreography because it's been eliminated from the score.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, but that's part of it.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: And like, even to hear you as a choreographer, Azuki, say, I wish that there was a choreography score because you want to learn and grow as a choreographer too.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: You want to know, okay, well, oh, maybe it was that transition they mentioned in the critiques that got a half point off or whatever, you know, like it's a collaborative thing.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it needs to be highlighted more like that in the industry.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: But obviously, a lot of choreographers don't want to hear the criticism.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: And we are, you know, we take it personal.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of, you know, people have said, it's about the dancers, just critique the dancers.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, well, wouldn't you want to know if there was something that, you know, coming from another one professional to another, like, wouldn't you want to know if there was something that you could adjust and tweak, or maybe take it with a grain of salt, and might make your dance even 10 times better?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what I mean?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's just always my approach to it.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm glad you mentioned that.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um, you know, just critiquing the dancers is a very nice thing to say, but there's the human aspect in all of this.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, judges are people and they have experiences, and a song might trigger something that is positive or negative, and subconsciously it may affect how they feel about it.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Also, there might be categories on the score sheet that are execution, technique, overall impression, and costume.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: But somehow, you know, say if it's out of a hundred, somehow, if they like the dance, those scores are gonna match in the 90th percentile, regardless of what that category is.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a human factor of the points are coming off somewhere.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm picking one of those categories.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right, it's coming off.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: To try and say it's a transition, like I would love that because sometimes, you know, these competitions are broken down, there's one judge scoring execution.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if the dance was done flawlessly, that that score should be high.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right if they had very basic staging, that score should be low.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if they like the dance, somehow those scores match.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there comes the there comes the person.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it try telling someone that how they decorate their apartment is better than another.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that's that's what they want and that's what they like.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's you know, that and so how do you quantify and qualify an artistic expression beyond putting compulsory elements in like gymnastics?
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you have to do this.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: So to live or die by the the first or second places is ultimately not it.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: Did did your dancer learn?
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Did your dancer improve?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: And are they a good person?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it's it's not it's short-sighted too, because dance competition to competitive dance ends at 18 usually.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then here's the rest of your life to create, to be created on, to be creative, like and not be scored, you know.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe maybe you'll be scored by somebody buying tickets to your show.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if you want to think of it that way, but you know, it's it it's a small, like I said, a small little microcosm of the greater dance world.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why it's so cool to hear from you guys who create for other things outside of the competitive world.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, choreography happens in all kinds of genre, all kinds of places.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: So for our budding choreographers out there, you know, yes, there's work to be done in the competitive world, but there's also work to be done elsewhere.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: I have a almost final question because we're nearing our end.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things I'd love to hear from both of you are if as choreographers yourself who also watch a lot of other choreographers present their work at events, what are some of the things that you wish you saw more of in choreography at competition?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: What is lacking in some of the choreography, or wish that you didn't see any more?
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_03: Could go both ways, based on maybe like a general overview of even could be trends in the industry when it comes to choreography.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_04: I this is what I have been researching lately.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's like, and this is like still kind of like in the air of where I'm at, but I think it's like dancing for yourself versus dancing for the judges.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I get invested when they're dancing for themselves because they love it, and you could see the passion rather than like, look at me, like I can do this, I can do that.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_04: And you could see the different energy that is presented in those, uh, the contrast of that.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I would rather see a dancer or dancers work together and collaborate and create art rather than you know, being like, okay, judges, like I want the score, like make us win kind of idea.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_04: So that's kind of where I am at.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I want dancers to be authentic, to be true of themselves.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_04: And like Eddie said, like, we're all humans.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_04: So how can we relate?
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_04: How can we be empathetic when we're watching a work?
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: And to attach sort of onto that, and I might be saying the same thing.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wish the choreography, the movement in any given specific moment had a why.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why did that take place right there at that moment?
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you can answer that question as a dancer, if you can answer that as a choreographer, and your why could be different than my interpretation, but I ask that a lot.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: Why do that tilt?
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Did it make sense that it furthered the story?
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: Did it say something to you?
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I just and and it it might, but I just wish there was an answer to why things are being done.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be from their performance, that could be I did sometimes like I did this ripple to accomplish this task of making it read, great.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just want to know why something is taking place.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: It could be mechanical, it could be emotional.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just tell me why that's happening.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I the why, like, as long as the dancers understand the why, then I'm good.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't need it.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't need you to explain that why to me during the dance.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: And and if you do, that's great too.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: But I can tell if you know what the why is versus not knowing what the why is as a viewer.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's important to understand storytelling and intention.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think more choreographers need to go in with storytelling and intention when they're creating and presenting that work, so then it can they should be talking about the why as the choreography is happening so the dancers understand the why.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_03: If it's not being talked about until like after the dance is created, oh well, we did this here because XYZ, like I want that to be a part of what's going into my brain as I'm taking it in.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's like the same as cleaning, essentially.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I want to know the storytelling and the the understanding of the concept as we go through, so I can add those layers into my performance for that product.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if they're if they don't have a why, then it goes back to what Izuki was saying, where it's like they're performing for the judges, like for a score, give me this result rather than you know, it made sense, it felt good, you know, whatever the case may be.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: Leslie, how are you feeling?
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think we covered everything.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think so.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think this was really cool.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: I loved hearing from you both and like learning so much.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this is like really eye-open.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure it'll be eye-opening uh for a lot of our listeners out there to hear from two fabulous choreographers and how your process starts and what we're what we're wanting to see more of.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I would love for us to wrap up this wonderful chat with our two fabulous guests with one final thought.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that final thought to lead us out of this episode are any advice, any advice that you'd like to give to aspiring choreographers, current choreographers within the competitive dance world as we head into the competition season, any tips and tricks that you'd like to give them that you've learned from your time as being a competitive dance choreographer, or just advice on how to continue to sculpt and mold their choreography for many years to come as a creative artist?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_04: So, one advice or something that I have been resonated by is this uh idea called The Gap by IR Glass.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, they talk about this idea where when you do, you know, you're creating, you're creating, and then you see a work and you're like, oh my god.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_04: This is incredible.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_04: There's a gap between the incredible work that you saw, and then between that, there's the gap, and then there's your work that you're creating.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_04: And there are some times where you're gonna have comparison, self-doubt, and the gap is gonna get closer and it will disappear and it takes time.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_04: But I love this visual because we see we are so invested in what we work, and then we tend to kind of you know watch great art or see great things, which is something that everybody should do.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_04: But at the end of the day, like we are able to be artists to uh create this idea of seeing the art and then trying to be inspired so that you could utilize it yourself and apply it.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_04: So that is kind of the the little idea of irreglasses gap.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: I like when things are articulated so nicely.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was I was gonna say a basic, like, just don't think you're done learning.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: I people don't know this, but every time I go in to do choreography, I give myself a task to try and accomplish something that I know I'm not that great at.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: So like I showed up, I don't know, last month before I was like, I'm gonna work on pause.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna like try and find moments to do less and find stillness.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that was my task for that day or that three days.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna find stillness because I'm not good at that.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's calm this down.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: Don't need to hit every accent.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I love how that sounds.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, close yeah.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then my other advice would be like, so I I task myself with improvement somehow, some way, and then keep studying because art history has something to tell, whether it be sculptures or you know, the way like an arc can draw a viewer's eye back to center, and then then you're kind of guiding the viewer where to look, you know, sort of focusing it like you would a camera or framing it.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: So just like study all of it and find application.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, wait, adding on to that history, I think it's important to note, you know, the the origins of the movement, and there's always going to be a where it actually comes from with your movement vocabulary, and I think just like finding the root of it will make your choreographic voice much more clear.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode all about choreography composition.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_03: Special shout out to our guests Azuki and Eddie for joining us on this chat.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_03: Be sure to follow them on social media.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_03: You can find Eddie at emotion.choreography and azuki at azuki.u.
• 1:08:46
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• 1:08:53
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• 1:08:59
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• 1:09:08
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• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_03: Competition season is right around the corner.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're looking for expert guidance to polish and perfect your routine before hitting the stage, then be sure to check out our popular service, IDA's Online Judges Critiques.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_03: Our experienced judges will provide you with a video critique of your performance.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_03: But with IDA's Online Judges Critiques, we take it one step further than your standard competition critique.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_03: Our additional feedback option allows for your judge to go back through and review your dance for an extra 10 to 15 minutes to give specific corrections and personalized feedback.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_03: And new for all of the choreographers out there, we are thrilled to introduce our new choreography console critiques.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of focusing on the dancer's performance, your IDA judge will dive deep into choreography-specific feedback, including concept, appropriateness, costuming, song choice, difficulty level, and so much more to help you learn and grow as a choreographer and take your artistic vision to the next level.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_03: IDA's online judges critique start at only$35.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_03: So what are you waiting for?
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Click the link in our show notes or visit our website at Impact DanceAjudicators.com slash online critiques to submit your dance today.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Season six has some great new episodes coming your way, including episodes on team building, a spotlight on the full circle boys, and a day in the life of a cruise ship dancer.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see you next week for some more great episodes.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_03: Until then, keep dancing.