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What Can Moms Learn From Rebekah, Isaac, Esau, and Jacob · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  Let's be quiet. Let's make sure the Lord gets the glory and that we're not trying to meddle or weasel out our hopes and desires. Let's step back and really let the Lord work. Hi, welcome to the Family Teams Podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 0:30
  Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I'm here joined by my lovely wife April, who just, we just had our granddaughter, we're just talking about this. So April, you want to explain what just happened in our family?
• 0:44
  Our first granddaughter, our second grandchild, and we are just over the moon. She just arrived yesterday and just got home moments ago, arrived home moments ago. So we're really happy. And the euphoria after having a baby, it's different when you're the grandparent than the one that just went through it. But yeah, super excited.
• 1:09
  Yeah. So excited. And then we have today Michelle Akrami, all the way from California, and Brittany Stewart, all the way from Texas. So today we're going to do something a little different. I want to try something new. We've been doing a lot of videos where we look at kind of a lot of contemporary ideas as being expressed through different thought leaders on YouTube and reacting and dialoguing, working through. Okay, what's the family team's kind of lens? What's the biblical lens through which we can see this issue?
• 1:36
  So, but there's another body of content that's really valuable to react to besides YouTube, and it's called the Bible. And it's timeless. And everything here, I think, is really important to see through, like the lens of family and motherhood. And how do we understand these things in light of the, especially the fascinating narratives that we have in the Bible?
• 2:05
  So I wanted us to do a deep dive on a character, a mother in the Hebrew scriptures. And this mother is Rebecca. She's a really interesting character in the Bible. So for those of you guys who might not be familiar with Rebecca,
• 2:20
  Rebecca was married to Isaac. So Abraham and Sarah were the first kind of patriarch and matriarch of the family of Israel. And then God chose Isaac. And then there's a really beautiful story in Genesis where Isaac meets his bride, Rebecca, through a bunch of serious events. I'd love to do a whole conversation in Midrash on that. But I wanted to talk through Rebecca and her role because...
• 2:49
  You know, there's sort of a really interesting tension in the story. And that is that Isaac kind of is blind, both maybe spiritually and physically. He's kind of like struggling, it seems like in the story, to really understand God's will. And Rebecca is sort of trapped as this woman in this very patriarchal situation.
• 3:13
  And what she does to try to further what she thinks is the right thing for the family is really interesting. And it doesn't, there's no sugarcoating in the Bible in the story. It's like a complex story. But it does bring to the surface a lot of questions. So I'm going to read two books.
• 3:31
  passages and then just get your all's reaction and we'll just kind of talk through these passages they both relate to the same story so i want to read from genesis 25 and then from genesis 27 and how we're introduced to this the character of rebecca so and you guys whatever is is sort of stirring up and i'll try to give some context as to as i'm reading if anything feels like it might be a little bit out of um out of uh out of place it might be hard to understand without some
• 4:01
  We'll start with Genesis 25. I'm going to read starting verse 19. And we're going to do kind of like a Midrash style. Midrash is kind of like where we just riff and discuss and try to figure out both...
• 4:13
  observations, um, and interpreting, and then like, what could this mean? How do we apply these, these, uh, these ideas? So Matthew, or we're looking at Genesis 25, 19. These are the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son, Abraham fathered Isaac. And Isaac was 40 years old when he took Rebecca, the daughter of Bethuel, the Aramean of Paddan Aram, the sister of Laban, the Aramean to be his wife.
• 4:37
  And Isaac prayed to the Lord for his wife because she was barren. And the Lord granted his prayer. And Rebekah, his wife, conceived. The children struggled together within her. And she said, Quote, If it is thus, why is this happening to me?
• 4:54
  So she went to inquire of the Lord. And the Lord said to her, Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided. The one shall be stronger than the other. The older shall serve the younger.
• 5:12
  When her days to give birth were completed, behold, there were twins in her womb. The first came out red, all of his body like a hairy cloak, so they called him his name Esau. Afterward, his brother came out with his hand holding Esau's heel, so his name was Jacob. Isaac was 60 years old when she bore them.
• 5:35
  When the boys grew up, Esau was a skillful hunter, a man of the field, while Jacob was a quiet man, dwelling in tents. Isaac loved Esau because he ate his game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
• 5:51
  All right, so that's the plot line so far. And then, of course, we're going to skip forward to Genesis 27 to kind of fill out the rest of Rebekah's part in this story. When Isaac was old and his eyes were dim so that he could not see, he called Esau, his older son, and said to him, My son, and he answered, Here I am. He said, Behold, I am old. I do not know the day of my death. Now then take your weapons, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me.
• 6:20
  and prepare for me the delicious food such as I love, and bring it to me so that I may eat, that my soul may bless you before I die. Now Rebekah was listening when Isaac spoke to his son Esau. So when Esau went to the field to hunt for game and bring it, Rebekah said to her son Jacob, I heard your father speak to your brother Esau. Bring me game and prepare me delicious food that I might eat it and bless you before I die.
• 6:45
  Now therefore, my son, obey my voice as I command you. Go to the flock and bring me two good young goats, so that I might prepare for them, from them delicious food for your father, such as he loves. And you shall bring it to your father to eat, so that he may bless you before he dies.
• 7:02
  But Jacob said to Rebekah, his mother, behold, my brother Esau is a hairy man and I am a smooth man. Perhaps my father will feel me and I shall seem to be mocking him and bring a curse upon myself and not a blessing. His mother said to him, let your curse be on me, my son. Only obey my voice and go bring them to me.
• 7:22
  So he went and took them and brought them to his mother, and his mother prepared delicious food such as his father loved. Then Rebekah took the best garments of Esau, her older son, which were with her in the house, and put them on Jacob, her younger son. And the skins of the young goat she put on his hands and on the smooth part of his neck. And she put the delicious food and bread, which she had prepared into the hands of her son Jacob. So he went in to his father,
• 7:50
  He said, My father. He said, Here I am. Who are you, my son? Jacob said to his father, I am Esau, your firstborn. I have done as you told me. Now sit up and eat my game, that your soul may bless me. But Isaac said to his son, How is it that you have found it so quickly, my son? He answered, Because the Lord your God granted me success. Then Isaac said to Jacob, Please come near, that I may feel you, my son, to know whether you are really my son Esau or not.
• 8:16
  So Jacob went near to Isaac, his father, who felt him and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau. And he did not recognize him because his hands were hairy like his brother Esau's hands. So he blessed him. He said, Are you really my son Esau? He said, I am. Then he said, Bring it near to me that I might eat of my son's game and bless you.
• 8:35
  So he brought it near to him and he ate and he brought him wine and he drank. Then his father said to him, come near and kiss me, my son. So he came near and kissed him. And Isaac smelled the smell of his garments and blessed him and said, see, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field that the Lord has blessed.
• 8:52
  May God give you the dew of heaven and the fatness of the earth and plenty of grain and wine. Let peoples serve you and nations bow down to you. Be Lord over your brothers and may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you and blessed be everyone who blesses you. As soon as Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, when Jacob had scarcely gone out from the presence of Isaac, his father,
• 9:14
  Esau, his brother, came in from hunting. He also prepared delicious food and brought it to his father. And he said to his father, "'Let my father arise and eat of his son's game, that he may bless me.' His father Isaac said to him, "'Who are you?' He answered, "'I'm your son, your firstborn, Esau.' Then Isaac trembled very violently and said, "'Who was it then that hunted game and brought it to me, and I ate it before you came, and I blessed him?'
• 9:40
  Yes, and he shall be blessed. And as soon as Esau heard the words of his father, he cried out with an exceedingly great bitter cry and said to his father, Bless me even also, O my father. But he said, Your brother came deceitfully, and he has taken away your blessing. Esau said, Is he not rightly named Jacob, for he has cheated me these two times? He took away my birthright, and behold, now he has taken away my blessing. Then he said, Yes.
• 10:03
  Have you not reserved a blessing for me? Isaac answered and said to Esau, Behold, I have made him lord over you, and all his brothers I have given to him for servants, and with grain and wine I have sustained him. What then can I do for you, my son?
• 10:19
  Esau said to his father, "'Have ye not one blessing, my father? Bless me even me also, O my father.' And Esau lifted up his voice and wept. Then Isaac his father answered and said to him, "'Behold, away from the fatness of the earth "'shall your dwelling be, "'and away from the dew of heaven on high.'
• 10:34
  By your sword you shall live and you shall serve your brother, but when you grow restless, you shall break his yoke from your neck. And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing with which his father had blessed him. And Esau said to him, The days of mourning for my father are approaching, then I will kill my brother Jacob.
• 10:51
  But the words of Esau, her older son, were told to Rebekah. So she sent and called Jacob, her younger son, and said to him, Behold, your brother Esau comforts himself about you by planning to kill you. Now therefore, my son, obey my voice. Arise, plead a Laban, my brother, in Haran, and stay with him a while until your brother's fury turns away, until your brother's anger turns away from you, and he forgets what you have done to him.
• 11:16
  that I will send and bring you from there. Why should I be bereft of you both in one day? Then Rebecca said to Isaac, I loathe my life because of the Hittite women. If Jacob marries one of the Hittite women like these, one of the women of the land, what good will my life be to me? All right. So there's a lot there. Um,
• 11:42
  But yeah, I was really interested to hear what kinds of things struck any of y'all about the story of Rebecca and what she does in this story so far. I think it's interesting that she, in the womb, could tell...
• 12:02
  That there was stuff going on. First of all, that she was struggling with infertility for so long. 20 years is what it sounds like. If Isaac was 40 when they got married and then he was 60 when the twins were born. Wow, that's a long time to go through that. And then for her to...
• 12:23
  be able to tell right away that something was going on in her womb with it being like her first pregnancy and everything. That's pretty fascinating. Need a blueprint to revise your family to be a multi-generational team on mission? The book Family Revision by Jeremy Pryor is the book that summarizes all the big picture ideas you hear on this podcast. Available on Amazon or familyteams.com.
• 12:54
  Yeah. I think her initial question, where it says in verse 22, the babies jostled each other within her, and she said, why is this happening to me? Instead of just, why is this happening? You know? And that jumped out at me. And I love that she went to inquire of the Lord, though, you know? But—
• 13:18
  I don't know, there's, as a mom, you know, so much, so many times in motherhood, we can make about us, you know, and it's not always, it's not about us. And I don't know, that was just a question that stood out to me that she was already kind of taking that personal and like, I need to do something, you know, something like that.
• 13:41
  Yeah, I think that is so interesting that she asked and she got this epic response that was definitely way beyond the scope of what she was asking. She wasn't asking, what is the, she's like, something is happening here. Yeah, and it was very like, this isn't personal to you. There is a national, two nations are literally at war inside of your womb. Yeah, yeah.
• 14:10
  Yeah, I think she started off the right way, right? Like, she inquired of the Lord. And he told her. Yeah. Then she found out what they felt like. It was so cross-cultural, like, against what the cultural norm was that I don't think she could accept that, you know. She could have had the story plays out. I guess my next question would be, did she share this with Isaac? Yeah.
• 14:37
  Right. Yeah. It's a very, it's very strange in the story that it seems that Rebecca is much more tuned in to the sovereign plan of God than Isaac is. Right. And this is, this is what creates the tension in the story. It seems because there is no indication that she did share this with Isaac or if she did that, he took it to heart. Um, and so she knows that,
• 15:04
  while she's giving birth, that whichever one is going to come out second is going to be the one that is going to be the son of the promise, not the firstborn. And it doesn't seem like Isaac took that on board at all. And so the story really, you know, it demonstrates kind of like, because, you know, there's,
• 15:22
  There is obviously this temperamental difference between Esau and Jacob and a reason why you have one of the sons more masculine and maybe therefore getting the favor of Isaac. Whereas it seems that Rebecca has this insight about the one who's actually the firstborn or the one who's the son of promise. And that might be influencing her relationships with the two boys.
• 15:52
  What else does stand you guys out for this story? I just think the whole... It's just the idea of the Lord communicating something to her when she's pregnant about her children. He gave something very clear to her. Like, God spoke to her. That's kind of like, wow, that's in and of itself is pretty amazing. And then...
• 16:21
  that she seemed to really fight for it. I mean, it's kind of what you were just saying, Jeremy, but it's like, I don't know. I mean, cause this was what, 20 years later, or we don't know, I guess, how old the boys are, but maybe 20-ish or 18 or 22, something like that. And she's still like really clinging to this, you know, thing that she heard and
• 16:46
  basically like forcing it to happen and uh maybe going around her husband or she's encouraging her if you think about what she's doing i've always felt conflicted with this story because she's like encouraging her son to deceive his father and she's like is spy or like she's getting the information and then she's going and like using her influence to like make stuff happen and um
• 17:14
  I just don't know where to put that in my moral compass because of what I think about marriage and how you should be on the same page and be supportive of your husband and that kind of thing. And so, I don't know. I'm just curious about what the dynamics were. But then that she had to kind of jump through those hoops kind of says that Isaac was not really...
• 17:40
  either listening when she did tell him or was kind of like had his own idea of the way things should be. And, you know, Esau being hairy, a kind of...
• 17:50
  Like his name literally is Harry, means Harry. So it just makes you think he's like this big, buff, burly, outdoorsy kind of guy. And then, you know, that maybe that would be outward appearance look like the leader of the family or like he's going to be the one who takes on this promise. Yeah.
• 18:13
  Isaac was the one who was almost sacrificed by his father and understands that he has like a half brother, Ishmael. And so I don't know, like all the somewhere in there, he still is not totally trusting the Lord or following what God has communicated to them. And so she has to step in. And it's like admirable in some ways and like questionable in some ways. I don't know. Yeah.
• 18:43
  Yeah. Well, that's why I found so important about this particular narrative. And that is, you have to wrestle with it. Like you can't just get some kind of blatant or obvious moral lesson. Like there is no way that I know of to splice this.
• 19:01
  like life is really messy. And one of the things I love about the scriptures is that they really, they force us to wrestle with these challenges. And so I think, and as you're reading the story, and this is kind of what I wanted to ask you both, like all three of you, just kind of get your feedback on, what can we learn from Rebecca? Like, how do you wrestle with this? You know, she's in a very weird dilemma. She's in a,
• 19:28
  she's in this marriage. Apparently they're not coordinating or cooperating. Like there's some level at which she's wanting something. And that the part of this that always gets me for some reason is when Esau comes in and, and,
• 19:44
  once Isaac realizes what happened, um, he trembles and he says, you can't reverse this. And there's been just enormous amounts of theological, um, discussion around why can't Isaac reverse this blessing? Um, but I would say that like one of the possibilities that I've always thought is, um,
• 20:07
  you know, makes the most sense to me, I guess, is it's because he's trembling because he knows that Jacob, the blessing belongs to Jacob and he's been worded like, um, yeah,
• 20:22
  This prophecy happened so early. And my guess is that Rebecca would have said something about this to Isaac at some point, but he doesn't want to hear it. And so you think as a human being or the leader of this family, I can...
• 20:40
  you know, my will can actually happen. And then we find out that somebody with all of the power of Isaac cannot give the blessing to whichever son he wants, that the sovereign decision or plan of God is going to thwart him. But the thing that makes this story so challenging or interesting is that it comes through his wife. It comes through her. It's almost like she's, yeah, is she, is she...
• 21:09
  is she cooperating with God to give the blessing to the proper son? Or is what she's doing wrong? And therefore God would have found another way that didn't involve any kind of deception or any kind of sort of this, what it feels like, you know, power play on the part of Rebecca. Like this is a really difficult thing to figure out. I don't know what that stirs up or how you guys read that, but this is where the wrestling really starts, I think. Yeah.
• 21:40
  I think the Lord, he clearly told her what was going to happen. And I go back to just recently, somebody reminded me that.
• 21:54
  Each of my children have their own testimony. Like, Rudy's writing their testimony. And I can try with all my power to manipulate it and make it go one way or the other. They have a story. And I feel like she was told. And she still, you know, couldn't step back and let it play out. Right? Like, she maneuvered her way through. So, I think...
• 22:22
  As a mama, there's just this reminder of like, even if Florida hasn't told me, be told her, clear as day, this is the plan. I have to step back and guide my children, but I have to tell the Lord, right, that test plan in their lives. It's not about me. She kept making it about her. We're in this story.
• 22:42
  So Brittany, you feel that because God prophesied to Rebecca about what was going to happen, that clearly he doesn't need her help. And when she inserted herself to force it to happen, that was kind of crossing a line. I wonder what the story would have looked like had she stepped back and let Delore work.
• 23:09
  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. For timeline, but yeah,
• 23:14
  Yeah, one of the details that seems to possibly indicate that is the way the storyteller describes the reason for the favoritism is not because Rebecca is trying to obey God, but because Jacob is a tentish person or whatever. He's dwelling by the tents as opposed to, yeah, so that's interesting.
• 23:42
  And I think it's like you were saying, Jeremy, about the favoritism and how often, if it's not dealt with and submitted and surrendered to the Lord, it just seems to follow down the family line, you know, and just seeing that play out. But yeah, like you were saying, Brittany, I think it has to do too with just submission to our husband, submission to the Lord, submission to our husband. It's like
• 24:12
  such a similar thing where there's such a trust involved and not wrestling to like make something happen, you know, and trusting the Lord and trusting our husband, you know, as, I don't know, that's something I've just been continually learning and growing in and there's always blessing in it, you know, and it's like, I think at least for me, I feel as a woman, I know when I
• 24:40
  and like wanting to overstep. And there's just like this check, you know, in my heart, like, nope, like that is the wrong route. I will not bless that, you know, like the Lord doesn't bless that. So yeah, but I get it, especially if you get a word from the Lord. And I wonder if she felt like she
• 25:04
  had to act on it, you know? Like, he told her this so that, okay, I'm telling you this so you can go do it. You know, I wonder if there was that dynamic for her that didn't get resolved in her own heart. Yeah, I think this is very reminiscent of what Sarah did just one generation before. So this is like, this is Rebecca's mother-in-law. Yeah.
• 25:28
  you know, gave her servant Hagar to Abraham because the promise God had made wasn't happening. And so she intervened and there are different scenarios and different people. So I'm not saying that they were, their hearts were in the same place, but
• 25:45
  But I'm just curious, you know, we see these women kind of stepping in and intervening and maybe messing things up. I don't know. And it takes me back to the fall. You know, in Genesis 3, part of the curse is not just pain and childbirth, but that we will, our desire will be to rule over our husbands. Right. And...
• 26:08
  You see it playing out like a few chapters later in this story in multiple generations. The Family Plan Calendar is the new way to keep your family team organized. Plan your rhythms, menu, household chores, and notes for the family all in one place. Visit FamilyTeams.com to purchase.
• 26:37
  Yeah. Yeah. It seems that maybe another clue that the, another detail the story gives us is that she is totally miserable with her daughter-in-laws, right? So Esau's married, these Hittite women, and Rebecca's like, I want to die. Yeah.
• 26:57
  And so she's got a whole plan. And what's interesting is her scheme to create or allow for this crazy rift to happen between Esau and Jacob actually plays into a larger plan that maybe she has to get Jacob to marry somebody from her own tribe. How is he going to do that? Well, he's got to somehow get to her family and they live, you know, hundreds of miles away. And so he basically...
• 27:24
  this huge rift that's sort of inevitable. I mean, what did you think was going to happen? Right. I mean, if you, there's only, there's only a scenario in which he's trying to steal the blessing and then Esau catches him red-handed or he successfully steals the blessing. Either way, Esau is going to want revenge or there's, it's going to create a, a massive rift between the brothers. There's already a huge rift, but it's going to get much worse. And so,
• 27:50
  Yeah, to your point, April, it does seem like there's a lot of manipulation, but the narrator is providing for us all kinds of ways in which this is playing out.
• 28:09
  to align with the plans of God. You see this as well with the story of Joseph, right? The author of Genesis is constantly giving us examples, right? Where, you know, Joseph has these dreams about all of his siblings bowing down to him. How is that ever going to happen? Well, it happens because his siblings hate him so much that his brothers sell him into slavery. And, you know, years and years and years later, they end up bowing down to him when he's in Egypt.
• 28:40
  And so the original prophecy gets fulfilled through the sin of humanity. And one of the things that you have an epilogue in Genesis, which I think really relates to this story as well. And that's when Joseph says to his brothers what man meant for evil. They start freaking out after Jacob dies. They think that they're going to be killed by Joseph because they had sold him into slavery.
• 29:06
  And Joseph comforts them by saying, what you meant for evil, God meant for good, for the salvation of many lives. And so is that true in this story? Like what Rebecca meant, like, you can't say in this Joseph story that the brothers had the best of motives. Like the story makes clear that their motives were not pure, yet God used their motives.
• 29:30
  sinful action to bring about his divine plan. And so you have something similar going on here. It seems like with Rebecca, like it's not as clear, but it does seem like if you look at the details of the story, her motives are more self-centered than God centered. And, but God's using them to bring about his, his sovereign plan.
• 29:54
  One way I've really had to wrestle with these matriarchs, the four matriarchs, is because every Shabbat part of what we do is I bless my daughters with Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah. And I'm like, what am I doing?
• 30:13
  What am I passing on to them? Sarah, the one who usurped God's promise and took it upon herself too. And Rebecca, the one who.
• 30:25
  You know, so I really don't have like a cut and dry black and white answer. And what I feel like I'm passing on to my daughters is like some of it is this reality of being a human. And like my desire is to like my fleshly desire is to like pass perfection on to my kids. Like I want them to be perfect and they won't ever have to struggle and they won't ever have to like.
• 30:52
  figure something out. They'll just do everything right. And so submitting the idea that I am blessing my daughters with these women of old who knew somehow of God and
• 31:08
  were in their flesh and then back in, you know, however that worked back then where they were listening to God and then taking things into their own hands and back and forth, how they were real people and they were running households and, you know, making the, like, running alongside their husbands in these, like, real leadership positions and involved in, like,
• 31:39
  the understanding of generational living and the ways that generations would be impacted and, you know, and not just off doing their own thing, but like somehow involved. And so even though they were these fallen human women, just that they were named, that we know so much about them that we can really kind of wrestle with what we do know about them. I think it's a type of gift that we're giving, like blessing our girls with.
• 32:08
  to as they step into generational living and running households and either they can use it as a
• 32:18
  What's it called when it's like an example of what not to do? There's a phrase about that. A cautionary tale. A cautionary tale. Or if it's like, or be like this woman, you know? So I think it's even just like the infertility issues that they both, like Sarah and Rebecca and Rachel and Leah, they all have this in different times and like trust in the Lord with your womb and like all of these struggles that we get to see through all four of them.
• 32:48
  Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I think they, may God make you like Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah. Yeah, part of what it seems like we're saying, we can't be saying these are matriarchs who are flawless and therefore be flawless like them. The patriarchs and the matriarchs all have major flaws in Genesis. But I think that part of what it seems like we want is for the will of God to happen. Yeah.
• 33:17
  God seemed to work in spite of them and through them and he loved them and he cared for them. And, and so he provided fertility, you know, in multiple cases. I mean, there was fertility issues with Sarah, with Rebecca, um, and with, um, Rachel. Right. Um, and then ultimately with all of the things they were trying to do, trying to accomplish God, his sovereign will was happening through them.
• 33:47
  A really vivid example of that. Like Rebecca is just clearly scheming and the deeper we go into this story, the more to me it does look like she's doing it for more personal reasons. And she's lifted up as this honored matriarch, you know, in the Bible.
• 34:05
  I had a thought, I had that same thought too. April, while I was just reading this earlier, and it's like, I'm praying this over my daughters, but I had this thought, and you too, Brittany. I had this thought, though, because we say that same prayer in our Shabbat meal, but the next part is, "'May He give you the heart of Ruth, the faith of Mary, and the righteousness of Christ.'"
• 34:27
  as you build our family from generation to generation. And I was thinking of how after, in that blessing, we named those matriarchs. There's now Ruth, who that ended really well, like God redeemed her, her situation. And then with the faith of Mary, it's almost, I don't know, I've never thought of this, so correct me if I'm wrong on this, but...
• 34:53
  There's almost a redeeming of what Rebecca said, or how she reacted to the word of the Lord here. Because when Mary heard the word of the Lord, she responded with, May it be to, what was it? May it be to me as you say.
• 35:11
  And she didn't meddle with any of it. Like, she stayed very submitted. I don't know. I don't know if that's a connection, but... And then it ends with the righteousness of Christ. So, I don't know. Kind of a cool redemption with that. Yes. That's good. I just, I agree, Michelle. I think that's a really neat... I wonder...
• 35:35
  how like the Hebraic mind juxtaposes the counterparts that you're, that you're kind of drawing there. That's, that's really interesting. Yeah.
• 35:45
  There's something she says here that really strikes me. I'm curious what you guys think. So she uses very commanding language multiple times in the story. Like she tells Jacob to obey her. She's commanding him as if she has real authority over him. And then she says to him when he says, well, what will happen if I get caught? And then my father starts to curse me.
• 36:12
  And Rebecca says, let the curse fall on me. It's just interesting. Like, I'm trying to, like, really think through the implications or what that says about the story or about the character of Rebecca. She is very much taking authority. She can take authority in, like, at the very end where she's in this conversation with Isaac about how...
• 36:35
  miserable she is with her daughter-in-laws but it's interesting that with within her relation with jacob she does take authority and then she wants the curse to fall on her um i don't know if that's even a possibility but yeah um what are we learning about rebecca and how yeah what how does that make you what kind of what does that start for any of you about about this character and what she what she's doing there in the story
• 37:03
  Gosh, my nature is just to read it and be like, I had a woman banged up. Did you get a woman? But the scripture keeps coming to mind, and I can't recall where it is. We're studying Revelation, so it's got to be in there. But I know it's all throughout the Bible. God searches the hearts, and God knows where it is. And so it's so easy for me to look at her and just like,
• 37:28
  Girl, chill. But what we don't see in this narrative is, was there further conversation between her and the Lord, right? Like to rebuttal almost what I said earlier, like we don't know if the Lord is like, and I'm going to use you, right? That part wasn't written. So I just think the Lord knows her heart. And for a mom to fight so fiercely, it has to believe that,
• 37:57
  She had a pure heart. But then the story does recap me, me, me, and selfishness. It was so hard to draw the line and say, this is, you know, I love stories like this because it makes you, it's that gray matter. Yeah. Brr, brr, brr.
• 38:16
  Yeah, it feels like for her to say, like, let the curse be on me, there is something there that is either that she believes so deeply that she is willing to say something like that. I think we have a hard time understanding the whole blessings and curse thing because it's like...
• 38:35
  kind of, I don't know, maybe ethereal or something like that, but I feel like it was so real to them. And we see it in this story how Isaac's like, I can't take it back. I've already given it. It's like, well, can't you just say the same words again? Like, what's, you didn't like give him something that he can't physically get back from him. Like, why can't you just say it again?
• 38:55
  So there's something going on in the blessing curse world that is really hard for, I think, our Western modern minds to really understand. And so for her to say that makes me think there is something that she's believing very, very deeply. She's taking a huge risk to say that even if it goes to that point of him cursing you, I'm willing to, I'll take that on. Like, let that be on me, but you need to do this.
• 39:24
  which to me denotes that she's believing something really deeply. So if it's back to that, like, God spoke to me and I was pregnant with you, and this is what he said, and I'm sticking to it, even if your stubborn father's not listening, like, I don't know if it's that kind of thing, or if she's like...
• 39:42
  I really want this to work out with my family of origin. I think this is the best way for it to go. I have my own plan and I'm willing to like die for it. I don't know which way it is, but it's just like, she had to believe something really deeply to be able to say that.
• 40:01
  So given this story or what we've kind of teased out so far about Rebecca, you're talking to a modern mother in our day and thinking about her role or her struggles or challenges in light of Rebecca's story.
• 40:21
  Yeah. Any, any applications that kind of come to mind? Like what, what, what would it look like for us to try to understand as we've wrestled with the details of this story? What would you encourage a wife and mother to do or not to do based on what we're seeing in this narrative? I'm still a really young mom. Like this is only 11, but yeah.
• 40:45
  I can be very strong sometimes and I have to have a whoa, chill out conversation with myself. And there was, um, a scenario and I felt like the words, like shut your mouth and crave at it because then I will take the glory, not you. And I told Michael, I'm like learning how I need a good mother-in-law. I'm like, I can practice like my kids and stuff. I'm spirally snuffling it on the roof. And you have, um,
• 41:12
  But that would be my encouragement. Right. Let's be quiet. Let's make sure the Lord gets the glory and that we're not trying to meddle or weasel out our hopes and desires. Let's step back and really let the Lord work.
• 41:29
  I think one thing that like really strikes me as we look at the story this time is what a disaster the favoritism was for Esau and Jacob. Esau was too masculine. It seems like in the story, like Rebecca didn't seem to really, he doesn't really seem capable of taking on teachings from his mother. Right. Like there's a, there's a really sad disconnect between Esau and Rebecca.
• 41:54
  And there seems to be a similar unfortunate disconnect between Jacob and Isaac. And it feels like it's inevitable because I think both boys are like, well, I've got my parent who's, it's almost like they both were raised by single parents. And instead of really a balance between the two, I don't know if you've ever seen this in a family, but that doesn't seem like a healthy thing that there is.
• 42:22
  And the story, it's so strong and so pronounced. It's just obvious the story points it out. Like one, you know, loved the, you know, and they slotted in and it was for really pretty superficial reasons, right? They could relate. Isaac could relate really well with Esau because he's this man in the field. And Rebecca got to spend a lot more time with Jacob because he was hanging around by the tents. And that's the relationship just got strong. And the other relationship must have gotten completely weak. And it does seem to be at the detriment of both boys. Yeah.
• 42:53
  Yeah, we didn't really get into this very much, but I would say to learn a lot about the mother-son relationship from this story, because you can see both kind of like maybe a mama's boy and then maybe a I'm too cool for my mom guy. I don't know. So just thinking about...
• 43:17
  our role as mother to a son, it's different than a mother to a daughter. And so acknowledging those differences and being aware that there are pitfalls, there's a desire to make your son's life easier or, you know,
• 43:39
  fix all his owies when he's little. And then it's hard to make that go away as they're growing up and making decisions around you. Letting him fall and pick himself back up kind of a thing can be hard for a mom to do. And so finding that balance between that and like that maybe the rough shoulder, like you're on your own, figure it out.
• 44:03
  um how how to maintain that like desire to um be a maternal influence and like like a a place where they can come for comfort but then also go back out to tackle the world's problems and the things that the lord's putting on their shoulders it's good
• 44:25
  Awesome. Well, thank you all for jumping on this. I love getting a chance just to really think through and let these stories kind of like live inside of us and just ponder and wrestle with the implications. I mean, these are such meta stories. Like we're supposed to, I think really, they shape the way that we think about these roles so deeply. And they don't do it in a very simplistic way. It's complex. And because it's so complex,
• 44:55
  I think it requires just the time and attention to sit down, look at the details, discuss the details, and wrestle together with them. So thank you all for wrestling through the story and the character of Rebecca. This has been a good conversation.
• 45:10
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