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Doctors rape & molest.....but still practice medicine! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. It would be hard to imagine
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Speaker 1: any relationship where trust is more important than the relationship
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Speaker 1: between the doctor and a patient. A three would not
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Speaker 1: stop kissing me, and finally my president and my proberts,
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Speaker 1: I was, I was Jephli, I was scared. There is
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Speaker 1: a problem among doctors who violate that trust, and violated
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Speaker 1: in ways that are absolutely alarming. He would put his
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Speaker 1: hand on my leg and literally start walking with his
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Speaker 1: hand up my leg. But so I've been sanitating and
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Speaker 1: he kissed me like nine times. But the problem is
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Speaker 1: that the system has massive gaps in it where doctors
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Speaker 1: can commit criminal acts against patients on a sometimes on
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Speaker 1: a serial basis, and authorities find out about it, yet
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Speaker 1: they're never turned over to police or prosecutors who could
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Speaker 1: hold them accountable. The hurt that doesn't heal, So think
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Speaker 1: about that just a moment, the hurt that doesn't heal,
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Speaker 1: you know. I learned that lesson when I would try
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Speaker 1: a case in Inner City Atlanta, and I would think
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Speaker 1: at the end of that trial that I would have
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Speaker 1: fixed it. But even when I would manage to get
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Speaker 1: a conviction out of a jury and the judge with sentence,
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Speaker 1: I'd turn around of the courtroom and everybody would still
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Speaker 1: have a broken heart. And that's what I learned after
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Speaker 1: my very first jury trial. What about a hurt that
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Speaker 1: doesn't heal? Today, I'm talking about doctors, medical doctors that
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Speaker 1: we trust. You know, if I had a doctor on
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Speaker 1: the stand, I would say, please come in in your
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Speaker 1: scrubs or at least where your lab jacket. You are
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Speaker 1: a doctor and people look up to you, and when
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Speaker 1: you were on that stand, I want you to live
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Speaker 1: up to every expectation that they have. I Nancy Grace,
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Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
2:00
Speaker 1: What about when that doctor molests his or her patient
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Speaker 1: out right sex molests his or her patient. When I
2:13
Speaker 1: say the hurt that doesn't heal, I am referring to
2:17
Speaker 1: an incredible investigation. I am referring to the Atlanta Journal
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Speaker 1: Constitution in depth, really undercover investigation of doctors who still
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Speaker 1: have their medical license that have molested their patients. And
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Speaker 1: there's no doubt about it that had happened with me.
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Speaker 1: An incredible person that I met in the flesh on
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Speaker 1: the doctor asset, Kevin Riley, the editor of the Atlanta
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Speaker 1: Journal Constitution. Also with me investigative reporter from the A
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Speaker 1: j C. Carrie Tea Garden and l A psychoanalyst Dr
3:03
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, also with me Alan Duke in l A,
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Speaker 1: Jackie Howard in Atlanta, and of course you joining us
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Speaker 1: here on Sirius XO. I want to first point out
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Speaker 1: that everyone has been reading about, believe it or not,
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Speaker 1: the US. This is not Russia. This is not some
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Speaker 1: other country far far away that we can go hi
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Speaker 1: that would never happen here. The Olympic official that molested
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Speaker 1: the stars are the girls gymnastics team, the Olympic coach.
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Speaker 1: Molestation that has turned everybody on their ear. I'm talking
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Speaker 1: about superstars claiming that this doctor has molested them. And
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Speaker 1: it's not just claim. He has been sentenced to sixty
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Speaker 1: years a gymnastics doctor, a doctor who abused used patients,
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Speaker 1: first of all, gets sixty years for child porn. His
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Speaker 1: name Dr Lawrence Nasser. Now that certainly sent shot waves
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Speaker 1: through the world to gymnasts, famous gymnasts in tears describing
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Speaker 1: how the Olympic U S Olympic doctor molested them, and
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Speaker 1: the claims keep coming to Kevin Riley, a j C editor,
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Speaker 1: What led you to investigate medical doctors that molest their patients, Kevin,
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Speaker 1: One of our reporters, Danny Robbins, had done a story
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Speaker 1: about a doctor who was in charge of the care
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Speaker 1: of women in Georgia's prisons, and as he was doing
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Speaker 1: that story and uncovered that that doctor appeared to be
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Speaker 1: responsible for some very serious issues and there were patients
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Speaker 1: who had died in my stars, Kevin, is this a
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Speaker 1: male doctor? Yes? Absolutely, Okay, right there, Okay, I don't
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Speaker 1: like it right there. I don't like a male doctor
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Speaker 1: being in a female prison. Not that I'm all sympathizing
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Speaker 1: with the female prisoners, because I know they all did
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Speaker 1: something most likely very bad to be in prison, not
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Speaker 1: the county g all awaiting trial, but convicted in a prison.
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Speaker 1: They don't have a choice of a doctor, you know,
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Speaker 1: so they're stuck with a male doctor. I don't like
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Speaker 1: that to start with. But you know, I'm not saying
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Speaker 1: male doctors aren't great. I've got a male doctor that
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Speaker 1: I credit saving my life. But Kevin Riley, sorry, Carrie
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Speaker 1: tea Garden reporter, for all the times you wanted to
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Speaker 1: interrupt your boss. I'm getting to just do that today. Okay,
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Speaker 1: Kevin hop back in, Sorry about that. So there's a
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Speaker 1: male doctor and okay, Well what happened was, as the
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Speaker 1: reporter was reviewing all the medical records that led to
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Speaker 1: that story, he found out that in Georgia, eighty doctors
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Speaker 1: who had sexually abused patients, including patients that were undergoing
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Speaker 1: just routine exams and under anesthesia, still had their medical
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Speaker 1: licenses in Georgia. So he said, wow, we should look
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Speaker 1: into this. We should find out what happens to doctors
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Speaker 1: in Georgia and other states when they're accused of sexual offenses,
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Speaker 1: because how could these people maintain their licenses? And that's
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Speaker 1: really how we got started on the story, and it
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Speaker 1: led to a nationwide investigation where we looked at doctors
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Speaker 1: in every state across the country. So it all started
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Speaker 1: with Kevin Riley the Atlanta Journal Constitution. You can go online,
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Speaker 1: guys and see this. It's called the Hurt that Doesn't Heal,
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Speaker 1: and it's very disturbing if you got the guts to
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Speaker 1: look at it. And I'm a firm believer and not
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Speaker 1: turning away from the truth even if it doesn't go
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Speaker 1: down very easily. Kevin Riley says he found eighty doctors
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Speaker 1: right off the bat there were still treating patients that
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Speaker 1: had been accused of wrongdoing. We're talking about doctors, and
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Speaker 1: this is these are not just allegations. These are not
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Speaker 1: just allegations. Okay, these are complaints to medical boards and
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Speaker 1: more where the doctors are still out there practicing on patients,
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Speaker 1: lady patients and others. To carry teguard after he discovers
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Speaker 1: the reporter discovers just eight right off the top, Then
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Speaker 1: where do you go with this investigation? How did it
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Speaker 1: launch nationwide? And what did you find? Well, the first
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Speaker 1: thing we found is that states don't really keep track
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Speaker 1: of this. We thought we could go round every state
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Speaker 1: and find out, hey, how many of these doctors do
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Speaker 1: you have, you've done this and how have you handled them? No,
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Speaker 1: no one really bother to keep track of it. So
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Speaker 1: we decided we had to go in and do that
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Speaker 1: UM and that involves basically using a lot of computer
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Speaker 1: programming to get medical board orders from every state. We
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Speaker 1: looked at a hundred thousand medical board orders basically doctors
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Speaker 1: discipline for all sorts of things from malpractice to um
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Speaker 1: basically being drug dealers to sex abuse. We're able to
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Speaker 1: find three thousand cases um where doctors had been um
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Speaker 1: found in discipline for um sexually sexual misconducts UM and.
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Speaker 1: But the other thing we found, ANSI was that that's
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Speaker 1: probably just the tip of the iceberg. We found a
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Speaker 1: lot of states disciplined doctors for these things in private,
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Speaker 1: including here in Georgia. They treat it more like a
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Speaker 1: illness than a you know, than a actual crime. So
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Speaker 1: we found that, you know, and we found that of
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Speaker 1: those that were even actually publicly disciplined, most were still
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Speaker 1: allowed to keep practicing. Pauline Trump E Evans was just
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Speaker 1: twenty four living in Wisconsin, and she went to her
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Speaker 1: psychiatrists for several months, and she told the psychiatrist she
8:31
Speaker 1: no longer needed treatment for anxiety. On her final visit,
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Speaker 1: her doctor, she says, offered her a drug to assist
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Speaker 1: her therapy. Instead, she says, the drug knocked her out
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Speaker 1: and her own doctor raped her. Her own doctor raped her.
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Speaker 1: To top it all off, she became pregnant. She went
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Speaker 1: to police. He was not charged, but gave up his license.
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Speaker 1: Five weeks later he got it back according to the
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Speaker 1: Medical Board minutes. She asked for the minutes and gave them.
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Speaker 1: To the a j C. Atlanta Journal Constitution Kerry T. Garden,
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Speaker 1: what happened to the doctor that reportedly raped Pauline trump
9:19
Speaker 1: E Evans after giving her a knockout drug. Well, you
9:22
Speaker 1: know that was interesting because she reached out to us
9:25
Speaker 1: after the theories first started. I will never forget getting
9:29
Speaker 1: an email from her. Like many people we heard from
9:32
Speaker 1: after that, it was not unusual at all for even
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Speaker 1: in cases m involving rape that happened in exam rooms
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Speaker 1: that UM, doctors could get their license back. It's not unusual, UM,
9:47
Speaker 1: and we'd see sometimes people would under pressure voluntarily surrender
9:51
Speaker 1: their license. But you know, you would think in a
9:54
Speaker 1: case of rape, someone would probably serve time or at
9:56
Speaker 1: least based at criminal allegation. But in many states, UM,
10:02
Speaker 1: you know, you don't have to The medical board doesn't
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Speaker 1: is under no obbligation to even report the police when
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Speaker 1: a crime is reported to them. That's one of many
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Speaker 1: things that we found out and just overwhelmed that because
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Speaker 1: you're a medical doctor, you can get away with us.
10:16
Speaker 1: To Kevin Riley, the editor of the Atlanta Journal Constitution,
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Speaker 1: who as commission an incredible investigation of doctors all across
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Speaker 1: the country, that have been charged with molesting their patients
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Speaker 1: and are still practicing today. Kevin, we discussed one case
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Speaker 1: where a doctor actually drugged lollipops and gave them to
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Speaker 1: his child patients and then molested them, even on video.
10:48
Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, it's important to remember something that that
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Speaker 1: Kerry mentioned, which is these are crimes, but under a
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Speaker 1: lot of the practices or medical boards across the country,
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Speaker 1: they're never reported to police. That is astounding because in
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Speaker 1: any other profession, teaching and other professions, you would immediately
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Speaker 1: be suspended, potentially lose your license, not to mention charge
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Speaker 1: with a crime that does not happen to doctors. And
11:16
Speaker 1: that is the big problem here. The other thing is
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Speaker 1: what it does to patients when that trust and the
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Speaker 1: doctor is violated. I mean, is there any more important
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Speaker 1: intimate trusting relationship than what you have with your doctor
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Speaker 1: and then it's violated. People vulnerable, Vulnerable people are taking
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Speaker 1: advantage of and they feel like they have nowhere to turn.
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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that we have done
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Speaker 1: on our website, my ac dot com is given a
11:43
Speaker 1: list of resources for people. If this happens to someone,
11:46
Speaker 1: what can you do? What are the steps that you
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Speaker 1: can take. And that's really important because when when we
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Speaker 1: heard from victims after we published this series, one of
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Speaker 1: the things we heard very consistently was simply, thank you.
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Speaker 1: I thought I was all alone. I thought I was
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Speaker 1: the only person that's happened to her. I am reading
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Speaker 1: an article and what I have read is so disturbing,
12:08
Speaker 1: and it starts with a quote, what the hell are
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Speaker 1: you doing, bastard. His patient's mother screamed when she found Dr.
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Speaker 1: Bradley with his hand and her daughter's diaper and following
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Speaker 1: her out to the parking lot. The doctor insisted she
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Speaker 1: the mom didn't see what she thought she saw, and
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Speaker 1: when police were called by the mom, he told police
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Speaker 1: that the mom was trying to coerce money out of him. Okay,
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Speaker 1: they decided that the mom, who was young and poor
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Speaker 1: and unmarried, uh was trying to get money from the doctor.
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Speaker 1: That nobody believed the woman. The case was closed. That doctor.
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Speaker 1: Earl Bradley went on to become one of the nation's
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Speaker 1: most prolific sex predators. For over fifteen years, he raped,
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Speaker 1: sawt of mize and molested pediatric patients, child patients, and
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Speaker 1: even recorded thirteen hours of sex assaults on children sometimes
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Speaker 1: so violent he had to resuscitate the child victims. He
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Speaker 1: managed to escape gossip investigators, colleagues that would call him
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Speaker 1: openly the pedophile pediatrician, and before he finally went to jail,
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Speaker 1: he victimized that we know of twelve hundred children, their
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Speaker 1: average age was three The youngest that we know of
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Speaker 1: was three months old. Carry Tea Garden joining me, investigative
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Speaker 1: reporter for the Atlanta Journal constitutions. Her boss, Kevin Riley,
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Speaker 1: the editor of the a j C, sent her on
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Speaker 1: a mission to investigate uncover doctors that molest their patients.
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Speaker 1: Carry Tea Garden. I'm sure you're familiar with the case
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Speaker 1: of Dr Bradley that I just described. He actually even
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Speaker 1: drugged lollipops to make the children pass out. Through interviews,
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Speaker 1: police reports, files records, the a j C Atlanta Journal
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Speaker 1: Constitution documented eight instances where Bradley was a subject of accusations,
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Speaker 1: and each time nothing happened and he avoided punishment. Carrie Teagard,
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Speaker 1: let's talk about Bradley for just one moment. Bradley is
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Speaker 1: a really disturbing case, um, but I mean, just the idea,
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Speaker 1: you know that the pediatrician would do that to children
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Speaker 1: so young. It's just really hard for anybody to even
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Speaker 1: believe that a doctor would do that, right. Um. And
14:48
Speaker 1: one thing we really took away from Bradley is that
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Speaker 1: there were all these chances to stop him. You know,
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Speaker 1: there were nurses who came forward that says, look, he
14:55
Speaker 1: looks for any excuse to um catheterize the little girls,
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Speaker 1: you know, when it's not necessary, and things like that
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Speaker 1: where it was just, you know, clear that it wasn't appropriate.
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Speaker 1: He would also like take It would be like at
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Speaker 1: the end of appointment, he would take the children in
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Speaker 1: another room and say, oh, I'm taking them to get
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Speaker 1: their little toy, you know, um. And so the parents
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Speaker 1: would be like, oh, okay, that's so nice, you know um.
15:24
Speaker 1: And and even with you just see over and over again,
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Speaker 1: it just wasn't believed, right. I mean, all those times
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Speaker 1: when he could have been stopped. You know what's interesting
15:35
Speaker 1: about that is the that case is that the only
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Speaker 1: reason he probably isn't practicing today and it's in prison,
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Speaker 1: is that he videotaped himself doing these acts for hours,
15:46
Speaker 1: and so that's where they had the evidence. I mean,
15:49
Speaker 1: even some cops dismissed it early on, as you mentioned
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Speaker 1: um nancy, but then later on when he was being investigated,
15:57
Speaker 1: they just found it was very hard to make the
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Speaker 1: case because, um, as you know, of a three year
16:02
Speaker 1: old victim is not credible, right, I mean, that's just
16:05
Speaker 1: a difficult case to make. And um, this happened in Delaware,
16:10
Speaker 1: which went to great extent to really look at, you know,
16:14
Speaker 1: how did this happen. And as a result, they ended
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Speaker 1: up passing what we believed and rated them as having
16:20
Speaker 1: the best patient protection laws in the country on this
16:22
Speaker 1: kind of thing, only because they saw what could happen.
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Speaker 1: I mean, twelve children. It's just hard to even believe that.
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Speaker 1: I know, it's just so overwhelming that we know of
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Speaker 1: twelve hundred and no one would listen to Dr Bethany Marshall,
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Speaker 1: li psychoanalyst. You know. Um, for instance, when children come
16:44
Speaker 1: to spend the night in our house, or I'm with
16:47
Speaker 1: children and we're all changing to go to gym class
16:50
Speaker 1: or something, I just naturally turned away. I don't want
16:53
Speaker 1: to look at them changing clothes. I want them to
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Speaker 1: go in the bathroom and show it's instinctive. I don't
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Speaker 1: really think it through, and I don't even put two
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Speaker 1: little girls in the same bathroom unless they run in
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Speaker 1: and out on their own. I just don't even it's
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Speaker 1: it's just natural. I don't think. I don't want to
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Speaker 1: see them without their clothes on, you know, I I don't.
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Speaker 1: I don't understand this, Dr Bethany, and I don't understand
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Speaker 1: why parents would leave their child alone with a doctor.
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Speaker 1: But you know what, I trust my doctors. I love
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Speaker 1: my doctors. But Dr Bethany, can I tell you something.
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Speaker 1: We had a doctor that everybody in my neighborhood went
17:30
Speaker 1: to when we were little, and all the girls would
17:33
Speaker 1: talk about it, and to this day we still talk
17:35
Speaker 1: about it. How he would comment on your body, make
17:40
Speaker 1: little comments during an unnecessary pelvic exam. We all laugh
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Speaker 1: about it now, but when I really think about it,
17:51
Speaker 1: I don't laugh. Dr Bethany. It's true, Nancy. I had
17:53
Speaker 1: a doctor like that too when I was a little girl,
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Speaker 1: and he looked at me inappropriately, never really touched or
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Speaker 1: fondled it. I think, back in that era where our
18:03
Speaker 1: consciousness wasn't raised, we just thought of these men as
18:07
Speaker 1: perverts or just sort of mildly crossing the line. But
18:10
Speaker 1: I shut her now to think what kind of victims
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Speaker 1: are out there? You know what you're saying about children
18:15
Speaker 1: in your house. You know because the twins are ten, right,
18:19
Speaker 1: is that how old they are that at that age
18:22
Speaker 1: a child has a sense of privacy, doesn't want to
18:25
Speaker 1: be exposed, doesn't want adults to see them without their
18:27
Speaker 1: clothes on. But they're not going to say it to you.
18:30
Speaker 1: You just have to be sensitive as an adult to
18:33
Speaker 1: give them their privacy. One of the things about this
18:35
Speaker 1: pedophile doctor that you're talking about is that the ascending
18:40
Speaker 1: pattern was so prolific. And we know about sex predators
18:44
Speaker 1: that they gravitate towards positions that are going to allow
18:48
Speaker 1: them to have access to their victims. And in these
18:51
Speaker 1: case cases, child victims obviously cannot speak up for themselves.
18:55
Speaker 1: So what's going to happen after a sex assault is
18:58
Speaker 1: that they're going to be symptomatic. They may cry a lot, withdraw,
19:02
Speaker 1: have problems, um with bed, wedding, um, behavioral problems. But
19:08
Speaker 1: if the parents don't know what they're looking for, the
19:10
Speaker 1: parents don't know how to interpret the symptoms. I think
19:14
Speaker 1: the best policy for parents is to never leave a
19:18
Speaker 1: child alone with anybody. Do not leave a three year
19:21
Speaker 1: old alone with the pediatrician, no matter what listening to
19:25
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Guys, I would never have known the extent
19:28
Speaker 1: of doctors whom the less medical doctors if it had
19:31
Speaker 1: not been for the Atlanta Journal Constitution, who has done
19:35
Speaker 1: an extensive nationwide investigation to find this out. Kevin Riley
19:41
Speaker 1: with me, the editor of the a j C. Also
19:43
Speaker 1: with me, investigative reporter with the a j C, Carrie
19:47
Speaker 1: Tea Garden. You can read and hear all of this
19:50
Speaker 1: in the Atlanta Journal Constitution online. I want to pause
19:52
Speaker 1: and thank not only you for joining me here, joining
19:56
Speaker 1: us here, but I want to thank our partners, our partners,
19:59
Speaker 1: they may our shining a light on this incredible investigation
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22:12
Speaker 1: Link a k C dot com code Nancy link a
22:16
Speaker 1: k C. Thank you for being our partner here today.
22:20
Speaker 1: And now back to the a j C investigation of
22:24
Speaker 1: medical doctors accused and even found guilty of molesting their patients,
22:31
Speaker 1: specifically women and children, and they keep practicing medicine. Yeah right,
22:38
Speaker 1: you could be crawling up on somebody's examination table that's
22:41
Speaker 1: been molesting people. That's not a happy thought. Kevin Riley,
22:45
Speaker 1: a j C editor. I know it's gonna be hard
22:48
Speaker 1: to pick, but which of these cases destroyed? I think
22:54
Speaker 1: that uh really got a lot of attention, or I
22:57
Speaker 1: think grabbed reader's attention. Was we have the story of
23:01
Speaker 1: one woman who describes a doctor basically assaulting and molesting
23:06
Speaker 1: her and she came out of the influence of anesthesia
23:12
Speaker 1: after a procedure, and he told her that this was
23:15
Speaker 1: just how they helped her come out of the anesthesia.
23:19
Speaker 1: She's become. She was a big voice in our story.
23:22
Speaker 1: She was a big she's a big voice of dealing
23:25
Speaker 1: with this issue. But the reason that example stands out
23:30
Speaker 1: is it shows how vulnerable a patient can be because
23:36
Speaker 1: you have to trust your doctor if you're going to
23:37
Speaker 1: have a procedure and you need to be debated somehow.
23:41
Speaker 1: I mean, who's there to protect you if if doctors
23:44
Speaker 1: are allowed to behave this way. Listen to this. I
23:47
Speaker 1: remember him kissing me on the lips and then manipulating,
23:52
Speaker 1: physically manipulating my hand to basically rub him. And he
23:56
Speaker 1: told me at that time, when I was very hazy, Um,
24:03
Speaker 1: he said, it's okay, this is just how we wake
24:07
Speaker 1: you up. I felt ashamed myself, UM, because I thought,
24:15
Speaker 1: if it was a dream, how disgusting. Why would my
24:21
Speaker 1: mind be be giving me that information when I was
24:25
Speaker 1: unconscious or very heavily sedated. And because I have worked
24:31
Speaker 1: in hospitals before, I assumed that it couldn't happen. That
24:40
Speaker 1: is from the a j C Atlanta Journal Constitution to
24:45
Speaker 1: carry T Guarden joining us Atlanta Journal Constitution investigative reporter.
24:49
Speaker 1: Am I wrong, but I thought there was supposed to
24:51
Speaker 1: be a nurse present in an examination room. That's correct.
24:54
Speaker 1: It's not required in every stage, but um, it is
24:58
Speaker 1: definitely recommended it and in all states, and is required
25:02
Speaker 1: in many, including Georgia, where if you're having an intimate
25:05
Speaker 1: exam there's has to be a second person there. But
25:09
Speaker 1: that's often a red flag if if a doctor isn't
25:12
Speaker 1: doing that. Um, that's the cause for concern because we
25:16
Speaker 1: saw a lot of things happen in those situations. A
25:19
Speaker 1: License to Betray that's the title of one part of
25:22
Speaker 1: the series in the a j C about a broken
25:25
Speaker 1: system that forgives doctors that sexually abuse in every state
25:30
Speaker 1: and uh. One of the doctors that Carrie te Garden
25:36
Speaker 1: writes about is from Kentucky. In Kentucky, Dr Alure was
25:41
Speaker 1: examining and in fake and infection on a patient's abdomen.
25:45
Speaker 1: When he the whole thing went sideways, he told the
25:50
Speaker 1: patient she had sexy underwear. Well, I'm not really in
25:55
Speaker 1: danger of that because Okay, Jackie's laughing because the twins say, mom,
26:00
Speaker 1: please buy somedy underwear. I'm like, I'm not getting any
26:04
Speaker 1: underwear until you too graduate from graduate school okay, and
26:07
Speaker 1: I finished helping pay for your wedding. Okay, So then
26:11
Speaker 1: mommy will get a new pair of underwear at Target. Okay.
26:14
Speaker 1: And until then, it's not happening. But wait a minute.
26:17
Speaker 1: The doctor, on a serious note, tells the patient she
26:21
Speaker 1: has sexy underwear. Well at that minute, right there, I
26:23
Speaker 1: would sit up and go what what what did you say?
26:27
Speaker 1: But listen to this. Then the doctor places his mouth
26:33
Speaker 1: on her genitals and says, it was so beautiful I
26:39
Speaker 1: couldn't resist. Okay, Um, Carrie tea garden? Have I lost
26:45
Speaker 1: my mind? Or did this really happen? It really happened.
26:48
Speaker 1: She did go to the police and UM, you know,
26:51
Speaker 1: the way these cases are most often successfully prosecuted as
26:56
Speaker 1: if they get the doctor, the patient to get friend
27:00
Speaker 1: the doctor, you know, on a recorded line, and you
27:03
Speaker 1: know he admitted it um to her that way, and
27:07
Speaker 1: so they were able to pursue the case. But the
27:11
Speaker 1: irony is that um, he was allowed to keep practicing UM.
27:15
Speaker 1: And there was a lot more to the case. He
27:17
Speaker 1: had other issues here with prescribing and malpractice. UM. But
27:21
Speaker 1: what we found out in some states, you know, the
27:24
Speaker 1: laws are kind of stacked in favor of the doctors.
27:26
Speaker 1: It can be hard even when a medical board wants
27:29
Speaker 1: to revoke a license um to do it or to
27:33
Speaker 1: make it last for very long. And so in that case,
27:37
Speaker 1: you know, they put him under some restrictions. We'll see that,
27:41
Speaker 1: but he's still practicing. He's still practicing. There is another
27:46
Speaker 1: doctor featured in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, a doctor that
27:51
Speaker 1: was accused of molesting a little boy years ago in Boston.
27:56
Speaker 1: And when he would hear his name called, the little
28:01
Speaker 1: boy in the waiting room would look up at his
28:03
Speaker 1: mom and say, I'm not going in. I'm not going in,
28:06
Speaker 1: And she couldn't understand, as she said, you're here to
28:09
Speaker 1: see Dr Rick, the friendly resident in training that gave
28:13
Speaker 1: him so much attention when he was hospitalized, who gave
28:16
Speaker 1: him a football jersey, a football as presence. And I'm
28:20
Speaker 1: I'm quoting straight from an investigation, an investigational piece in
28:25
Speaker 1: the a j C. The boy says, no, he makes
28:27
Speaker 1: me get naked and it hurts. This is recalled by
28:33
Speaker 1: a man now grown and his mother as he interviewed
28:37
Speaker 1: with the Atlanta Journal Constitution. That doctor, a doctor Richard Bonner,
28:44
Speaker 1: is a pediatric and enthusiologist, and just recently the family
28:48
Speaker 1: publicly accused him of child molestation and filed a lawsuit
28:55
Speaker 1: that he that he molested a child on the examination table. Now,
29:01
Speaker 1: let me point out that the doctor has denied the
29:06
Speaker 1: accusations completely, totally denied them and the investigations, Kevin Riley,
29:15
Speaker 1: do the doctors typically deny the accusation. Not only that,
29:19
Speaker 1: but we actually have a piece on our website where
29:21
Speaker 1: we look at the excuses that doctors offered, and among
29:25
Speaker 1: the highlights include that one one doctor who who was
29:30
Speaker 1: accused of blessing a patient said he could see it
29:34
Speaker 1: in her eyes that the patient wanted to have sex
29:37
Speaker 1: with him. Another doctor convinced a doctor that have a
29:42
Speaker 1: patient that having sex with him was a therapeutic technique
29:47
Speaker 1: that he used. And others would just offer excuses like
29:51
Speaker 1: they were under a lot of stress, or a woman
29:54
Speaker 1: had control over them, or they just you know, made
29:58
Speaker 1: a little mistake. And it's important to remember in all
30:02
Speaker 1: of this, and if people read our series, they'll see
30:04
Speaker 1: and Carry's writing that we describe this stuff in blunt terms.
30:09
Speaker 1: I mean people like to use terms like molestation or
30:13
Speaker 1: sexual misconduct. This is assault, and this is rape, and
30:17
Speaker 1: this is a crime and there are no excuses for it.
30:22
Speaker 1: And people may deny it, but in many cases the
30:26
Speaker 1: proof is just overwhelming. What is lacking is the commitment
30:32
Speaker 1: of medical boards to really take this issue on, and
30:36
Speaker 1: also this problem with people being afraid to confront that
30:42
Speaker 1: martial uh L a psychoanalyst joining me. The mother, the
30:46
Speaker 1: mother is racked with guilt. She said that she is
30:52
Speaker 1: overcome with guilt, that she just was so focused on
30:57
Speaker 1: getting her son well, she didn't understand what was happening.
31:01
Speaker 1: Can you imagine a mother's guilt of this happening. I
31:06
Speaker 1: can't imagine, because, as we so frequently talk about on
31:09
Speaker 1: your show, a mother's job is to protect their child, right,
31:14
Speaker 1: and when a predator is able to get in and
31:18
Speaker 1: sort of pierce the boundary of protectiveness that a mother
31:22
Speaker 1: has towards a child, it's that Well, it's interesting because
31:27
Speaker 1: then not only is the child traumatized, but the mother's
31:29
Speaker 1: traumatized too. I was I was reading through the literature
31:32
Speaker 1: on post traumatic stress disorder this morning before the show,
31:36
Speaker 1: just in preparation and in the d s M. One
31:40
Speaker 1: of the criteria for post traumatic stress disorder is witnessing
31:44
Speaker 1: another person going through a traumatic event. So you don't
31:48
Speaker 1: even have to be the person who's molested. You can
31:50
Speaker 1: be the parent or or a sibling, and then you
31:54
Speaker 1: either witness it or there's the ripple effect of that
31:57
Speaker 1: patient's trauma, and you know something you will still doubt
32:00
Speaker 1: about all these stories. I think Carrie's reporting is so
32:03
Speaker 1: wonderful because the patients who were molested talk about the
32:07
Speaker 1: mistrust of relationships throughout the lifespan. That's one thing that's
32:12
Speaker 1: that really struck me. Avoidance of medical care because they
32:17
Speaker 1: didn't trust doctors. And then the one patient who was
32:20
Speaker 1: impregnated and then had to give the child up for
32:23
Speaker 1: adoption or decided to do that, talks about the fact
32:26
Speaker 1: that so much of her energy and creativity went through
32:30
Speaker 1: went towards managing the trauma, and that she tried to
32:34
Speaker 1: imagine that if she hadn't been molested by her doctor,
32:37
Speaker 1: where else could she have put that energy? And I
32:40
Speaker 1: thought that was a really good point. That all of
32:42
Speaker 1: these victims now spent enormous amounts of time managing the
32:46
Speaker 1: trauma that the fallout from these events in their life,
32:49
Speaker 1: and thus they their energy is not freed up to
32:53
Speaker 1: make contributions towards society in other ways. So it's just
32:57
Speaker 1: one more evidence of the ripple effect of these um
33:01
Speaker 1: sex predators. I want you to hear what an undercover
33:04
Speaker 1: agent said who had to pose as a patient to
33:09
Speaker 1: try to get evidence against the doctor that investigators believe
33:14
Speaker 1: abused at least sexually abused at least eighty patients. Listen.
33:20
Speaker 1: I went over there about three o'clock in the afternoon
33:23
Speaker 1: and I asked about having an appointment with him for hypnosis,
33:27
Speaker 1: and he came out front and he literally looked me
33:31
Speaker 1: up and down. He I mean, he scanned me up
33:34
Speaker 1: and down with his eyes and then told me to
33:37
Speaker 1: come back that night at nine o'clock. I had never
33:39
Speaker 1: in my life had a doctor tell me to come
33:41
Speaker 1: in at nine o'clock at night that evening. When we
33:44
Speaker 1: went back, um, of course, there were other agents with me,
33:46
Speaker 1: and I was wired too, And when I went back,
33:50
Speaker 1: there were no cars in the parking lot whatsoever. There
33:53
Speaker 1: was only one light on in the building. And when
33:55
Speaker 1: I opened up the door and went in, he was
33:57
Speaker 1: waiting on me at the front desk. Took me back
34:00
Speaker 1: to the back room where an examining room, and one
34:03
Speaker 1: of the first things that I had noticed was that
34:06
Speaker 1: there were locks on the doors of each of the
34:08
Speaker 1: examining rooms. Or when I went into the exam room,
34:10
Speaker 1: he had one of those little roll around trades and
34:12
Speaker 1: there were two syringes on it, and we later found
34:15
Speaker 1: out when that was sent to the lab that one
34:18
Speaker 1: was a drug that would have knocked me out, another
34:20
Speaker 1: was a drug that would have brought me back. Because
34:22
Speaker 1: he wasn't enthusiologist, so I commented on the syringes to
34:26
Speaker 1: make them know that there were there were drugs there,
34:28
Speaker 1: and he said, well, we may not need those. He
34:30
Speaker 1: had me get up on the table and he started
34:33
Speaker 1: with his hypnosis thing, and as soon as he thought
34:36
Speaker 1: I was hypnotized, the first words out of his mouth
34:38
Speaker 1: he wanted to know how old was I the first
34:41
Speaker 1: time I had sex? And what was the person's name
34:44
Speaker 1: that I had sex with? And so when I answered
34:46
Speaker 1: his questions, he said, when you wake up and you
34:51
Speaker 1: look at me, you're going to think that I am
34:53
Speaker 1: the first person you ever had sex, and you're gonna
34:56
Speaker 1: want me. You're gonna want to be with me, and
34:59
Speaker 1: he would put his hand end on my leg and
35:01
Speaker 1: literally start walking with his hand up my leg beside
35:05
Speaker 1: the exam table. And he kissed me like nine times
35:10
Speaker 1: while we were in there, and each time he did this,
35:12
Speaker 1: I would say, you kissed me, you kissed me, because
35:15
Speaker 1: I wanted the guys outside to understand what was going
35:18
Speaker 1: on too, And I set up and I kept pretending
35:21
Speaker 1: that I was going in and out of hypnosis and
35:24
Speaker 1: that he couldn't keep me hypnotized, and he was getting
35:26
Speaker 1: frustrated with that. He didn't like that. Then he put
35:29
Speaker 1: his hand on my leg and he ran his hand
35:31
Speaker 1: all the way up under my skirt and he ran
35:34
Speaker 1: it between my legs. And as soon as he did that,
35:36
Speaker 1: I had him for sexual battery and I knew that,
35:38
Speaker 1: and so there was no doubt in my mind that
35:41
Speaker 1: he was doing the things that we had been told
35:43
Speaker 1: that he was doing. And when they brought him in,
35:47
Speaker 1: he did not realize, you know, why he was being
35:50
Speaker 1: arrested at that point, he didn't realize it had to
35:52
Speaker 1: do with me. Um. I was in the other room
35:55
Speaker 1: and when I walked in, UM, the look on his face,
35:58
Speaker 1: I mean, it was just he was. He had dark
36:01
Speaker 1: skin and he literally turned white when he realized, you know,
36:04
Speaker 1: what was going on. After he was arrested. It was
36:07
Speaker 1: a newspaper article as well as there's some thing's done
36:10
Speaker 1: on TV about it. And we just ask any woman
36:13
Speaker 1: who had ever had a problem with him, you know,
36:15
Speaker 1: if they had anything they wanted to tell us, to
36:16
Speaker 1: please come forward. And we had eighty women that came forward.
36:21
Speaker 1: They were anywhere from sixteen years old up until their sixties.
36:27
Speaker 1: In the end, after the trial was over, he got
36:29
Speaker 1: fifty years. That is from the undercover investigation that has
36:34
Speaker 1: been exposed by the Atlanta Journal Constitution. And there are
36:39
Speaker 1: so many more cases. I want to pause and thank
36:43
Speaker 1: our partner making our serious X program possible as we
36:47
Speaker 1: highlight this extensive nationwide investigation of doctors that have molested, rate,
36:54
Speaker 1: abused their patients and are still practicing. Now, why of
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38:44
Speaker 1: Today super Beats, thank you for being our partner today
38:48
Speaker 1: as we explore one of the most damning investigative reports
38:52
Speaker 1: I have ever seen. This conducted by the Atlanta Journal
38:56
Speaker 1: Constitution and with me, the editor of the a j S.
39:00
Speaker 1: See Kevin Riley. Kevin, this piece that you published in
39:04
Speaker 1: the a j C. And it's online. That's where I'm
39:07
Speaker 1: getting it. I'm reading it bit by bit online. There's
39:12
Speaker 1: so many layers to it. How big is the piece?
39:16
Speaker 1: How many clicks do I have to read? You know, Nancy,
39:19
Speaker 1: we've probably got this covered as well as uh it
39:22
Speaker 1: possibly could be. I think the best parts of the investigation, though,
39:26
Speaker 1: are the very personal stories you will find from women
39:30
Speaker 1: who decided that they wanted their stories known so that
39:34
Speaker 1: this thing would not happen to other people. In that
39:37
Speaker 1: case you just described where the Georgia Bureau inst of
39:41
Speaker 1: Investigation agent went undercover. They eventually identified about eighty victims
39:48
Speaker 1: from the age of sixteen to sixty and and the
39:51
Speaker 1: agent even even described this doctor's practice. She said it
39:54
Speaker 1: was like an organized rape center. Whit whit whit white, white, white,
39:58
Speaker 1: white white. Kevin Riley, the editor of the a j
40:02
Speaker 1: C along with carry T Garden and Atlanta Journal Constitution
40:05
Speaker 1: Investigative Report. Let I'm drinking from the fire hydrant here.
40:08
Speaker 1: It's just so much. I just kind of slowed down
40:12
Speaker 1: a moment, you know, Kevin. When I would prosecute, let's
40:16
Speaker 1: just say a murder case, but every case that involved
40:20
Speaker 1: an expert, I would have to go to the morgue,
40:23
Speaker 1: sit down with the doctor that did the emmy, and
40:26
Speaker 1: go through the autopsy report, which sometimes could be you know,
40:29
Speaker 1: seven to twenty pages long. I would have to go
40:32
Speaker 1: through every single line, sometimes each word if they were
40:36
Speaker 1: medical terms, so I could understand it. And in the
40:39
Speaker 1: columns I would book brief. That's what we did in
40:42
Speaker 1: law school. Very often. Instead of writing a full brief,
40:45
Speaker 1: you'd booked brief in the columns, the PSI columns of
40:48
Speaker 1: your case that you were reading. I'd book brief the
40:52
Speaker 1: autopsy so I could break it down and understand it
40:55
Speaker 1: in simple terms. Now you just said that this doctor's
41:00
Speaker 1: practnice was called what the agent who did that undercover
41:03
Speaker 1: work called it? An organized center and organized rape center.
41:10
Speaker 1: You know what I'm thinking about, Carrie t. Garden, all
41:13
Speaker 1: the rapes and the child listations that I prosecuted him.
41:18
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's still if I let my mind go there,
41:22
Speaker 1: it still makes me just break down and cry. What
41:25
Speaker 1: these victims went through and what they will go through
41:28
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. I mean, I'm a crime
41:31
Speaker 1: victim of violent crime, and I know it affected the
41:35
Speaker 1: rest of my life. You know. Carry after my fiancee
41:39
Speaker 1: was murdered, it took me. I was thirty years before
41:43
Speaker 1: I could bring myself to try to make a full on,
41:48
Speaker 1: real commitment because in my mind it would just all
41:53
Speaker 1: blow up on me and everything would go sideways and
41:55
Speaker 1: my whole world would get torn apart, and just frankly,
41:59
Speaker 1: I just didn't want a pain. And I almost lost
42:02
Speaker 1: the chance to have children because of my delay. That
42:06
Speaker 1: that's just one example, But these ladies and children that
42:10
Speaker 1: were raped and sodomized the rest of their lives, they
42:13
Speaker 1: go through a feeling of helplessness. They couldn't fight back,
42:18
Speaker 1: they were victimized, and messes up all their relationships from
42:22
Speaker 1: then on. Carrie, and then to top it all off,
42:25
Speaker 1: in these cases that you investigated with the A j. C.
42:28
Speaker 1: It was a person that everybody respects, nobody wants to
42:32
Speaker 1: believe them. They believed the doctor. One thing that was
42:36
Speaker 1: UM really troubling UM was how often the victims were
42:41
Speaker 1: already vulnerable or had been damaged previously, and then some
42:46
Speaker 1: of these doctors would capitalize on that. UM. This one
42:50
Speaker 1: case that always stuck with me. We never even used
42:52
Speaker 1: this in the story. We had so many cases, you know,
42:55
Speaker 1: there were so many that we couldn't even include. But
42:57
Speaker 1: it was a a doctor who who knew his patient
43:00
Speaker 1: had been sexually abused by her father as a child.
43:03
Speaker 1: And doctors kind of know stuff about you because you
43:06
Speaker 1: have to tell him about yourself and what you're dealing with.
43:08
Speaker 1: Is the ones who go off the rails will use that.
43:12
Speaker 1: And so he um got her into a sexual relationship
43:17
Speaker 1: with him, and during relations would say to her, Oh,
43:20
Speaker 1: is this how it was with your father? You know?
43:22
Speaker 1: Is this what you did with your father? Which I
43:25
Speaker 1: thought was just so um terrible And in the in
43:29
Speaker 1: the real heavy part of the reporting for this project,
43:33
Speaker 1: there were a group of us who did nothing all
43:36
Speaker 1: day every day for weeks but read these cases and UM,
43:42
Speaker 1: it was very troubling. I think that's the was the
43:45
Speaker 1: most important part of the series where we read cases
43:48
Speaker 1: hours after hours every day UM, because it really told
43:52
Speaker 1: us how bad it could get and then what the
43:55
Speaker 1: response would be. And that doctor I just talked about
43:59
Speaker 1: um when he was reported they the board viewed it
44:03
Speaker 1: that he had an illness issue. He was sent off
44:05
Speaker 1: to kind of a recovery center to do yoga and
44:09
Speaker 1: art so he could um develop a sense of empathy
44:13
Speaker 1: and so he could eventually go back to practice yoga
44:17
Speaker 1: and art. Dr Bethany Marshall his sorry, Fray Murk needs
44:21
Speaker 1: to be in jail with the other rapist. Absolutely, yoga
44:25
Speaker 1: and art. I think the problem is and and this
44:28
Speaker 1: is something that we've been talking about lately on your show,
44:31
Speaker 1: is that this is not just sexual predation. It's not
44:34
Speaker 1: just sexual harassment. It is rape. It's a crime. You
44:37
Speaker 1: don't you know, if someone robs a bank, do you
44:39
Speaker 1: try to rehabilitate them through yoga and art? Absolutely not.
44:43
Speaker 1: These crimes have to fall into the same category. The
44:46
Speaker 1: a j C. Atlanta Journal Constitution obtained and analyzed over
44:51
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand, one hundred thousand disciplinary orders against doctors
44:58
Speaker 1: and among those identified over three thousand doctors sanctioned after
45:05
Speaker 1: being accused of sex misconduct, and what that means sex
45:08
Speaker 1: misconduct is sodomy, rape, sex assault. And thousands of those
45:14
Speaker 1: doctors had violations involving their own patients. Half of those
45:19
Speaker 1: still have medical licenses to day, half of them still
45:27
Speaker 1: are practicing, over half of them. Why that's my question,
45:32
Speaker 1: Why are they licensed to rape and get away with it?
45:38
Speaker 1: Listen to this Terriba Trees and her husband and just
45:43
Speaker 1: moved to Louisville a few months prior to this happening.
45:46
Speaker 1: She has a degenerative bone disease, and she had been
45:49
Speaker 1: referred to Kasvin, to their doctor, and she was in
45:54
Speaker 1: the exam room. Sounds sounds like it wasn't but a
45:56
Speaker 1: few minutes before he he forced himself on her. Not
45:59
Speaker 1: only a surgery. I had had a fall first of January,
46:04
Speaker 1: so I had a fract shirt right knee at a
46:07
Speaker 1: fract shirt clavital, and my left shoulder was already collapsed completely.
46:12
Speaker 1: I needed it replaced, it was collapsed. So I was
46:15
Speaker 1: as cruciating pain from all of that, trying to find
46:18
Speaker 1: him off and his whole body weight on me. There
46:20
Speaker 1: was really much I could do other than screen for help,
46:25
Speaker 1: which you know, no one came, so he would continue
46:28
Speaker 1: to kiss me. Um, he ropped my bra uh. Particularly
46:34
Speaker 1: he was kissing my my left breast A lot after
46:41
Speaker 1: he would not stop kissing me and finally my my
46:47
Speaker 1: my breast and my braw ribs. I was I was terrified.
46:51
Speaker 1: I was pretty scared. I was actually really scared at
46:54
Speaker 1: that point. I guess he found a soft place in
46:57
Speaker 1: his heart. I don't know that, but he he allowed
47:01
Speaker 1: me to adjust myself. That's when I realized dyes c
47:05
Speaker 1: he he was playing with himself as well as and masturbating.
47:10
Speaker 1: This may be hard to believe, but she was actually
47:12
Speaker 1: thinking on her feet in the moment right after this
47:14
Speaker 1: happened and was able to start collecting DNA evidence like tissues.
47:18
Speaker 1: He was wiping himself off with a hundred dollar bill
47:20
Speaker 1: he threw at or even had some DNA on it.
47:22
Speaker 1: And she didn't know it at the time, but she
47:24
Speaker 1: even had DNA evidence on her sweatshirt. Because I was
47:27
Speaker 1: drug and I was date raped when I was nineteen
47:29
Speaker 1: years old, I wasn't able to report it immediately. I
47:33
Speaker 1: was I was out of it. I guess there are
47:36
Speaker 1: there are no evidence and I so good. I made
47:39
Speaker 1: him know if I promised no, I said, if it
47:42
Speaker 1: ever happens to me again, I will not with the
47:43
Speaker 1: sound of a bit walk away. I will not let
47:45
Speaker 1: him get away with it. That's what was going with
47:47
Speaker 1: in my mind, that I'm not I've just been essentially assausted.
47:51
Speaker 1: I'm not leaving here unleissaf I. She was convinced that
47:54
Speaker 1: it was not the first time he'd ever done it,
47:55
Speaker 1: that it had to be something he'd done, uh several
47:58
Speaker 1: times before, and that's why she decided to go on
48:01
Speaker 1: the on the news a couple of days later, you know,
48:04
Speaker 1: on the advice of her private attorney, and make a
48:07
Speaker 1: police for other people to come forward, and sure enough, uh,
48:11
Speaker 1: some did. That is from the investigative piece by the
48:15
Speaker 1: Atlanta Journal and Constitution that encompasses all fifty states. This
48:20
Speaker 1: is your state. Your state is included in this Atlanta
48:26
Speaker 1: Journal Constitution piece. So, Kevin Riley, you're the editor, tell
48:31
Speaker 1: me what do you do if you think this has
48:35
Speaker 1: happened to you or your child. Well, the first thing
48:40
Speaker 1: to remember, as we've said, is it is a crime.
48:44
Speaker 1: You can go to the police and report this. And again,
48:48
Speaker 1: a lot of these patients are vulnerable people. They are
48:50
Speaker 1: making accusations against a doctor who's probably a prominent person
48:56
Speaker 1: in that community. But it is important that people know
48:59
Speaker 1: they can go to the police, they can report it
49:01
Speaker 1: to the state Medical Board, if it happens at a
49:04
Speaker 1: hospital or a clinic or with a doctor affiliated with
49:07
Speaker 1: such a place. They can also go to those organizations,
49:11
Speaker 1: and they're also a number of advocacy organizations that people
49:15
Speaker 1: can go to. All of these resources where patients are
49:18
Speaker 1: listed at our website my avac dot com. So if
49:21
Speaker 1: someone's listening to this and it's happened to them and
49:23
Speaker 1: they're not sure what to do, those resources are available
49:26
Speaker 1: at our website. But the most important thing for people
49:30
Speaker 1: to know is if it feels like they're all alone
49:34
Speaker 1: and they believe this only happened to them, they're almost
49:36
Speaker 1: certainly going to find out that predator doctors have a
49:40
Speaker 1: lot of victims, and once someone comes forward, other people
49:43
Speaker 1: often do. It reminds me of the current Harvey Weinstein
49:47
Speaker 1: thing UH investigation, because once one person had the guts
49:50
Speaker 1: to stand up and suddenly there was a flood alleged
49:54
Speaker 1: victims coming forward. Now, of course, the vast majority of
49:58
Speaker 1: doctors like people are good. I love my doctors, the
50:02
Speaker 1: doctors I have it as an adult, and I love
50:05
Speaker 1: my children's doctors. Of course I stay in there with them.
50:08
Speaker 1: But I love my doctors. But there is no doubt
50:12
Speaker 1: in my mind that this has happened, and most likely
50:17
Speaker 1: far beyond, far beyond the extent of the a j
50:19
Speaker 1: C article, because these are just the people that actually
50:22
Speaker 1: made a claim, that realize what had happened to them,
50:26
Speaker 1: that did wake up during anesthesia, that they figured out
50:30
Speaker 1: what was happening to their three year old. How many thousands,
50:34
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of people never said a word, carry
50:38
Speaker 1: T Guarden, investigative reporter, a j C. How can a person,
50:42
Speaker 1: a regular person check out their doctor. Um, it's pretty tough, Nancy,
50:47
Speaker 1: in part because of what you just said. UM that
50:51
Speaker 1: a lot of the time that's not reported. People are
50:53
Speaker 1: confused when it happened. But I do encourage people to
50:56
Speaker 1: look at their state Medical Board website to just see
51:00
Speaker 1: if their doctor has ever been disciplined. You can also
51:03
Speaker 1: see interesting information about whether somebody's board certified and UM
51:07
Speaker 1: just other background information. In every state, UM licenses doctors
51:12
Speaker 1: at the state level, so it's worth checking out um,
51:16
Speaker 1: Otherwise it's it's kind of hard. I think a good
51:18
Speaker 1: thing to do is familiarize yourself with things like state
51:21
Speaker 1: requirements like if I'm having an intimate exam, should there
51:24
Speaker 1: beat someone else in the room? Um, And and don't
51:27
Speaker 1: hesitate to um ask for that. You know, if in
51:30
Speaker 1: the selling feels uncomfortable to you know, it's it's worth
51:34
Speaker 1: um getting up and walking out. I mean, doctors are
51:38
Speaker 1: supposed to kind of explain why they're doing certain things,
51:41
Speaker 1: and so if you're in an exam where something's happening
51:44
Speaker 1: and it's not clearly explained, and that can also be
51:47
Speaker 1: a red flag as well. A Nancy Grace crime story
51:50
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye friend,