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New green card rule faces litigation — and a look inside an “unprecedented” Alligator Alcatraz report · This Week On ICE

0:00
[music]
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SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to This Week On ICE for September 16th, 2026.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm Matt Kendrick.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Kelly Kimball.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: And we're really excited to talk to you today.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: This is a bit of a special episode.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: We're going to cover a couple of news stories,
0:19
SPEAKER_00: including possible changes to green card applications that could see hundreds
0:23
SPEAKER_00: of thousands of people lose their status in the United States,
0:27
SPEAKER_00: as well as a report on Alligator Alcatraz that came out.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: But we're going to spend a good portion of this episode Informing you
0:36
SPEAKER_00: about some big changes that are coming to the podcast,
0:38
SPEAKER_00: as well as reflecting on what the project has meant to us so far
0:41
SPEAKER_00: and what we've heard from you as we've been going through it.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, Kelly, let's start with Alligator Alcatraz.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: This report came out on Monday of this week,
0:52
SPEAKER_00: and it goes through in agonizing detail the lack of humane standards
0:59
SPEAKER_00: and mistreatment that was endemic to this facility.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Those of you who don't know,
1:03
SPEAKER_00: it was essentially an open-air jail in Out in the Everglades in Florida,
1:08
SPEAKER_00: incredibly inhospitable and uncomfortable place that has since been shut down
1:11
SPEAKER_00: and attracted a lot of controversy and since been shut down.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: So what did the report say?
1:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: So this report was released on September 11th by the Office of Inspector General.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: It's a bit of like a whistleblower or audit office within the Department of Homeland Security.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: And they conducted an unannounced or so-called unannounced visit in January
1:31
SPEAKER_01: of this year, but only submitted the report on September 11th.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: And this report is very egregious,
1:37
SPEAKER_01: but also unsurprising of the conditions inside Alligator Alcatraz.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: So what do they describe?
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: So it's a multi-page document describing unprecedented conditions that fail
1:48
SPEAKER_01: to meet federal standards,
1:50
SPEAKER_01: like containing detainees in cages that are about the size of phone booths used
1:55
SPEAKER_01: to either A,
1:56
SPEAKER_01: to place people inside to de-escalate if they are in a Mental health situation,
2:02
SPEAKER_01: which I don't think helps if it's the size of a phone booth.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Being locked in a cage.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Not good for your mental health.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Or basically to separate people or put in a separate location for any other number of reasons.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: Also, The showers were infested with bugs and vermin.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: The OIG audit also found that at least one documented case,
2:23
SPEAKER_01: a migrant was put in these small cages as a form of punishment.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: And putting people in small cages as a form of punishment is a form of torture
2:32
SPEAKER_01: and not a situation in which a detainee with
2:35
SPEAKER_01: an immigration case should deservedly be put into
2:38
SPEAKER_00: at all.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: The particularly egregious thing about this report is the fact that it was conducted in January.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: They held it this entire time,
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SPEAKER_01: and then Alligator Alcatraz was forced to shut down in June of this year,
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SPEAKER_01: and then they came out with this report just on Monday.
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SPEAKER_01: This report recommended ways in which to improve the conditions of the facility,
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SPEAKER_01: but the frustrating part about this is that even in the document itself,
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SPEAKER_01: It rendered all of those recommendations moot by saying,
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SPEAKER_01: these are ways to improve the conditions,
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SPEAKER_01: including giving detainees cups to drink water from,
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SPEAKER_01: which many detainees did not have.
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SPEAKER_01: And even if they were given cups to drink water from, they had no means to clean those cups.
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SPEAKER_01: Another one was to provide a recreational area for them to get outside and move.
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SPEAKER_01: Another one was to provide refrigerators and freezers for the food that they give detainees.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: And another was to...
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SPEAKER_01: Get rid of the bug infestation and vermin infestation within the shower facilities.
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SPEAKER_01: So a lot of very obvious and intuitive recommendations to make a detention facility just humane.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: And this particular line in the document really frustrated me by saying,
3:52
SPEAKER_01: oh, Alligator Alcatraz closed in June.
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SPEAKER_01: So none of these recommendations necessarily need to be honored anymore because
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SPEAKER_01: the facility doesn't exist.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: So in other words,
4:03
SPEAKER_00: the U.S.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: government built this facility,
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SPEAKER_00: which was inappropriately located,
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SPEAKER_00: inappropriately staffed,
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SPEAKER_00: inappropriately handled, abused potentially thousands of detainees in it.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: And now is off the hook because the facility has been shut down.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: And even though they knew for six months after this report was conducted the extent
4:27
SPEAKER_00: of inhuman treatment and disgusting conditions there,
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SPEAKER_00: they didn't do anything about it.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: And the other part, too,
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SPEAKER_01: is that when approached by the press,
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SPEAKER_01: DHS and ICE deny any culpability because they said, hey...
4:42
SPEAKER_01: We didn't fund this facility.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: The state of Florida funded this facility,
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SPEAKER_01: but it was constructed with federal funds and managed by ICE agents.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: ICE's retaliation is,
4:53
SPEAKER_01: hey, the only reason this place exists is because of these two H7G agreements.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: We couldn't get all the funding to put this up.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: The only reason why they weren't able to get all the funding that they needed was
5:03
SPEAKER_01: that they failed to comply with an environmental inspection.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: And the lack of culpability,
5:11
SPEAKER_01: the lack of owning up to the conditions within the facility on top of
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SPEAKER_01: the egregious conditions makes this particular OIG report so hollow.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: And so nefarious,
5:22
SPEAKER_01: and it's something definitely worth bringing up because yes,
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Alligator Alcatraz is closed, but there are hundreds of ICE detention facilities.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: With Alligator Alcatraz closed,
5:30
SPEAKER_01: the largest detention facility on the East Coast is now Delaney Hall in New Jersey,
5:34
SPEAKER_01: which we have reported on Delaney Hall many, many an occasion on this show.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: And so even though this report is moot,
5:41
SPEAKER_01: even though this detention facility is shut down,
5:43
SPEAKER_01: it provides more incentive really for journalists,
5:46
SPEAKER_01: members of the press to keep an eye on these detention facilities and continue
5:51
SPEAKER_01: to hold them accountable for the ways they do treat migrants.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
5:55
SPEAKER_00: your point about this network,
5:57
SPEAKER_00: this extensive network of detention facilities is well taken.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: And it reminds me of like a major difference that we've been discussing for months
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SPEAKER_00: between Kristi Noem's DHS and Mark Wayne Mullen's DHS.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Where Christine O made a big deal about alligator Alcatraz,
6:12
SPEAKER_00: was emphatic in demonstrating how difficult the conditions were there as
6:17
SPEAKER_00: a selling point for the facility, as a political selling point for the facility.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: And as a result, it generated all this attention, generated controversy.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: We have this report saying it's gone, or saying what's wrong with it, and now it's gone.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: But like you pointed out,
6:31
SPEAKER_00: All over the country,
6:33
SPEAKER_00: there have been repeated,
6:35
SPEAKER_00: repeated reportings of exactly the same kind of problems in facilities.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: Infestations,
6:41
SPEAKER_00: undrinkable water,
6:42
SPEAKER_00: unsanitary conditions,
6:44
SPEAKER_00: places that are extremely environmentally degrading,
6:47
SPEAKER_00: so extremely cold or extremely hot,
6:49
SPEAKER_00: depending on where they are, and located all over the country in different areas.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: So not only just, I mean,
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Delaney Hall,
6:55
SPEAKER_00: obviously the largest,
6:57
SPEAKER_00: but we've also brought you Interviews on this show with guests who've done a lot
7:01
SPEAKER_00: of work up in Boston, down in California, at California City, at Adelanto.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: How many times have we talked about Adelanto?
7:08
SPEAKER_01: Probably half a dozen times.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: Probably half a dozen times.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: And these complaints that are addressed in this report surface in one way or another
7:16
SPEAKER_00: in all of those facilities.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: And so I hope that Democrats who are in the opposition can take this report
7:23
SPEAKER_00: and run widely with it and mandate much more oversight and Hopefully shut some
7:27
SPEAKER_00: of these places down that are so awful.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Well,
7:30
SPEAKER_01: we have to move on to our second story before jumping into the other things we want
7:34
SPEAKER_01: to talk about on this episode.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: So green card holder, something consequential has happened.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Can you explain to everyone what it is?
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: So 21 states are suing the Trump administration,
7:45
SPEAKER_00: which is attempting to ram through a rule change regarding Thisweekonice.com
8:14
SPEAKER_00: State attorneys general across the country are saying
8:17
SPEAKER_00: that this is incredibly capricious, incredibly cruel to do.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: A green card is a permanent residency.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: You might have gotten it 15 years ago and now your circumstances have changed
8:29
SPEAKER_00: and you've fallen on hard times.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: You need SNAP benefits in order to get to the next month.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: You need Medicaid to cover medical expenses.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: And you are now put in a position where you are...
8:39
SPEAKER_00: We're negotiating between potentially losing your ability to live in this country
8:44
SPEAKER_00: and potentially losing out on meals and health care.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: That could obviously adversely affect your health.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: But this is all quite possible because of something called the Public Charge Rule,
8:55
SPEAKER_00: which has existed in the United States for a long time.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Basically,
8:58
SPEAKER_00: it's a provision of immigration law that allows the government to deny visas,
9:03
SPEAKER_00: deny green cards,
9:04
SPEAKER_00: or entry into the country to anyone they feel who would be Likely
9:09
SPEAKER_00: to become dependent on that assistance and unable to get off it again.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: So this is something that's been part of applications for a long time.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: But if the Trump administration gets its way,
9:20
SPEAKER_00: over 500,000 people stand to lose their green cards.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: And that could have tremendous consequences for them,
9:27
SPEAKER_00: including exposing them to imprisonment in the kind
9:29
SPEAKER_00: of facilities we were just discussing.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: And this is a rule that's going to be applied very quickly.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: The rule change is set to take effect on Friday.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: And this week, 22 states issued a lawsuit to block the new DHS rule.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Because of this lawsuit,
9:44
SPEAKER_01: will the change still take effect on Friday or will it effectively be paused?
9:48
SPEAKER_00: They're seeking an emergency injunction that would stop the rule from taking effect.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: We'll see what the result of that is.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a lawyer.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: This is not any kind of expert legal analysis.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: But it seems to me,
10:02
SPEAKER_00: looking at it as a layperson,
10:03
SPEAKER_00: that there's clearly a lot of people who would be harmed by this rule
10:06
SPEAKER_00: and harmed very quickly by this rule.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And so possibly that's a reason for a judge to grant the injunction.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: But this is just another legal tactic we have seen to reduce even pathways
10:20
SPEAKER_00: to legal migration in this country.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: And so it goes well beyond the issue of undocumented migration
10:26
SPEAKER_00: or irregular migration that has dominated at least the political rhetoric
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And it's going much more into a nationalist space,
10:35
SPEAKER_00: much more into a space of like,
10:37
SPEAKER_00: even if you do all the right things and have legal status,
10:41
SPEAKER_00: this government is going to look for ways to take that away from you and reduce
10:45
SPEAKER_00: the ability of other people to enter this country via legal means.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: But it also really,
10:50
SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's also based on this assumption that people that are
10:54
SPEAKER_01: on SNAP benefits are are undeserving to be in the country.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
10:59
SPEAKER_01: It's basically punishing people for being poor, for falling on hard times.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And if we're thinking about inflation and the tariffs that have come up
11:08
SPEAKER_01: under this administration,
11:10
SPEAKER_01: the war in Iran and the price of groceries and gas,
11:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's so easy for just about anybody to fall on hard times right now.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: And so when you're thinking about the kinds of people that will fall into
11:19
SPEAKER_01: a situation in which they need SNAP benefits,
11:21
SPEAKER_01: that can be Anyone at any time,
11:24
SPEAKER_01: you know, I think any of us can be on that knife's edge financially.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: It can happen to anyone.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: Also, I think what you're pointing to this ethos
11:33
SPEAKER_00: of shame surrounding taking public benefits that goes way back in the United States.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that goes back to the pilgrims, right?
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Like where if they believed in a preordained universal structure
11:44
SPEAKER_00: where God had already set out everything that would happen to you in life.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: And so if you fall on hard times and you require benefits,
11:51
SPEAKER_00: that's because you're a bad person, right?
11:52
SPEAKER_00: That's because you have sinned in some way.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: That's the way that the pilgrim fathers and theologians of that.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Strain might have thought about these things.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: So this goes way back.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we can talk about welfare queens, you know, that horrible slur in the 90s.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: There's a long tradition in this country of shaming and making life difficult
12:14
SPEAKER_00: for people who require public assistance.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: And so we are going to keep a close eye on this injunction.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: And the lawsuit and also if that rule ends up going into effect,
12:25
SPEAKER_01: how many people it'll affect and how it will affect people's daily lives.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Matt, for sharing that information.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, should we dive into the big news segment here?
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: All right.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: So the big news on my part is that I am moving to Vienna, Austria.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be pursuing two master's degrees there,
12:44
SPEAKER_00: one in East Asian Economy and Society and one in Sinophon.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: Cultures and societies.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of overlap, which is what I can do at the same time.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: But I'm really excited.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: As I think a lot of you know, I'm an Austrian citizen.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: This is going to be my first time living in Austria full time.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a blast.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: But what that means is that possibly you will hear a little less from me.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: I might step into more of a production role.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: But what I can promise you is this show is going to keep going.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing stopping us from continuing to report on this subject that's
13:16
SPEAKER_00: so near and dear to our hearts.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: I think this is also a really important time to reflect on what we have reported
13:21
SPEAKER_01: so far, the people that we have met along the way.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we started this podcast in February of this year,
13:28
SPEAKER_01: and in a very short amount of time, a lot of incredible things have happened.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: One, we have ranked in the top 40 Substacks in Mexico.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: We have become a rising news and politics newsletter on Substack as well.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: We received two grants to do our reporting,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: one from the Fund for Investigative Journalism in like month two or three of
13:47
SPEAKER_01: the founding of this podcast,
13:49
SPEAKER_01: on top of a reporting grant from Gold House that is allowing me to report
13:53
SPEAKER_01: from abroad on a very specific topic that we will definitely mention in
13:57
SPEAKER_01: a little bit more detail.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: And we're so incredibly thankful for the support and thankful for the momentum.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: We have been able to meet people from across the country that are reporting from
14:10
SPEAKER_01: the most consequential front lines of the immigration story.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: People from Los Angeles,
14:15
SPEAKER_01: New Jersey,
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Florida,
14:17
SPEAKER_01: New York City,
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Washington, D.C.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: And we hope to invite many more guests onto the show to share in that reporting
14:25
SPEAKER_01: and share in that documentation and the bearing witness of what is happening
14:28
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to immigration enforcement.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: I think with that in mind,
14:33
SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear from you,
14:36
SPEAKER_00: Kelly, kind of like how you remember starting this podcast.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: What made you want to reach out to me?
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And suggests we have to cover ICE.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, so I was actually laid off from my role as managing editor of a global newsroom.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: This newsroom was punching well above its weight and we were doing kind of everything right.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Everything that a newsroom should be doing, we were doing very well.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: We had tripled our audience in less than a year.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: We increased our Rolodex of correspondence from the low dozens to over 120
15:09
SPEAKER_01: from five different continents.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: In some of the most under-reported places in the world like Kashmir and Sudan
15:15
SPEAKER_01: and South Sudan and Rwanda, we were really proud of what we did, right?
15:19
SPEAKER_01: But as with so many things in the media industry,
15:22
SPEAKER_01: a lot of the financial stability is on a knife's edge and we lost a lot
15:25
SPEAKER_01: of key grant funding simply because our grant expired
15:28
SPEAKER_01: and there were too many other people looking for money to sustain the journalism
15:32
SPEAKER_01: that they did.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: And so I did a lot of soul searching in the beginning of the month thinking,
15:37
SPEAKER_01: And it really dawned on me that one of the most consequential and the biggest story
15:41
SPEAKER_01: of
15:57
SPEAKER_01: That defines this administration right now is immigration enforcement.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: And what they describe as like a national security emergency is really
16:05
SPEAKER_01: a human rights emergency,
16:07
SPEAKER_01: depending on how you view the story of ICE and the story
16:10
SPEAKER_01: of immigration enforcement right now.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: And I knew that we together would be able to do right by this story.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: I love writing stories about the human impact or the consequential ripple effects
16:23
SPEAKER_01: of global flashpoints.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: I've always ever reported on everywhere except the US,
16:27
SPEAKER_01: so I wanted to kind of challenge myself with a new lens through which to see
16:31
SPEAKER_01: the world and my journalism.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: And I also knew that you were like a Washington guy, you know?
16:37
SPEAKER_01: You're all about that high level, all about the power brokers in US politics.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: You also have a real mind for foreign policy,
16:45
SPEAKER_01: foreign affairs, and have an encyclopedic knowledge of just about anything.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: So I just kind of knew that we have enough overlap to make this a shared mission,
16:54
SPEAKER_01: but also enough of a difference in skill that we're going to look at the same thing.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: With very different eyes.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And so all of which is to say we founded This Week On ICE because we believe this is
17:05
SPEAKER_01: a very, very important story.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: We believe that in order to hold the powerful accountable,
17:11
SPEAKER_01: in order to see the long arc of justice reach the other end,
17:15
SPEAKER_01: we have to bear witness and we have to make routine touch points
17:19
SPEAKER_01: with this story week in and week out,
17:21
SPEAKER_01: no matter how difficult the story is,
17:23
SPEAKER_01: no matter how devastating the news developments are.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Because one day all of this documentation,
17:27
SPEAKER_01: all of this commentary is really going to matter even more than it does right now.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it's so funny.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Like when you were explaining where you were in your career,
17:38
SPEAKER_00: in your professional life when we started this,
17:41
SPEAKER_00: you could use the exact same words for me.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: I was in a globally oriented newsroom.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: We were growing like gangbusters on an editorial level, making all the right decisions.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: But the end of the media industry is in the worst crisis that I've ever seen it in.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: No one seems to be able to find stability in an environment
18:03
SPEAKER_00: of intense political scrutiny of the media, intense popular scrutiny of the media.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: How are we supposed to make money when AI is stealing everyone's work and publish it?
18:11
SPEAKER_00: There's a million things going wrong.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: So we're both in this place,
18:14
SPEAKER_00: I felt like,
18:15
SPEAKER_00: where we had built up a decade of experience doing foreign policy reporting.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And for me,
18:22
SPEAKER_00: the stories that always tugged at my heartstrings the most were ones of migration
18:27
SPEAKER_00: and refugee issues.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: And I remember reporting out this story.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: It was actually more of a historical piece for the 50th anniversary of the fall
18:36
SPEAKER_00: of Saigon a couple of years ago.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: And I contacted a woman named Erin Steinhauer here in Washington, D.C.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: I know that's a very German sounding name.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: She is Vietnamese.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: She's a Vietnamese refugee.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: And she she had come to the United States.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: She told me her unbelievable story of her family's survival of the fall of Saigon.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Hiding what resources they had,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: eventually one by one escaping,
18:59
SPEAKER_00: living in refugee camps for decades, finally making it to the U.S.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm tearing up even thinking about it now.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: It was so moving.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: And over and over and over again, it was these stories of human migration and overcoming...
19:13
SPEAKER_00: Desperate circumstances,
19:15
SPEAKER_00: often arriving in places where certain people don't want them there
19:19
SPEAKER_00: and do not treat them fairly and equally.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: That's what really was so powerful to me.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of foreign policy reporting is very much realist and hard-nosed.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: And it's about who is going to be able to dictate the terms of the global order.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: All of that stuff is incredibly important.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: I love talking about it.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: I can talk about it for hours.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: But my primary motivation is not necessarily to analyze that.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: I really, really want to talk about human rights.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about Ordinary people, vulnerable people.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: And so when Kelly approached me and I was out of a job and thinking
19:51
SPEAKER_00: about what my next step might be and the story unfolding in front of us
19:56
SPEAKER_00: in Minneapolis with people losing their lives,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: putting their lives on the line and losing them in order to stand up to a campaign
20:07
SPEAKER_00: of state terror against migrants,
20:09
SPEAKER_00: against people who are trying to build a new life,
20:11
SPEAKER_00: who are doing what makes this country great And will I think forever be our legacy,
20:18
SPEAKER_00: at least in the early part of the United States history is this,
20:22
SPEAKER_00: it was a place where you could come from nothing and build a new life and nothing
20:27
SPEAKER_00: that predated you confined you as much as it might in the old world.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: And so, so I thought to myself, well, what is my role?
20:37
SPEAKER_00: How can I sit here with the skills that I have?
20:41
SPEAKER_00: Fluent Spanish speaker.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: I've got a great journalist.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Who I've loved working for in the past asking me to take on this project with her.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: I have to do it.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: There's no way around it.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't even really a question.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Like we decided to do this within like two days.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Within like 48 hours.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: I was like, it's going to be called This Week On ICE.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be weekly.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be segment one is going to be news development and analysis.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: Segment two is going to be either a guest speaker or some type
21:06
SPEAKER_01: of wildcard segment thematic in some way.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's going to be about 30 minutes long.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's exactly what it has been.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: From day one.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: From day one.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's been quite a wild ride.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: But I thought now we could talk about some of the stories that have moved us the most.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: And then the first one, which we just got a text from our friend.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Just now.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Just now.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Andy Eblen.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: You guys might remember.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: He is trying very hard to get his friend, Yudina Gorb, out of ICE.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: We had an incredibly moving interview with him where he described the circumstances
21:43
SPEAKER_00: in which Eugenia was abducted,
21:45
SPEAKER_00: how much she was advocating for Andy to look after others in the community,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: how her concerns was always of others,
21:54
SPEAKER_00: and I just felt In hearing her story that this was such an injustice and
22:00
SPEAKER_00: an injustice multiplied by hundreds of thousands over the course of
22:04
SPEAKER_00: the last few years of immigration crackdown.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: And so I wanted to share an update on that story as well,
22:10
SPEAKER_00: which is that Idina is still in confinement.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: But no one's giving up hope yet.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: As you're listening to this on the 16th,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: there's a fundraiser in San Francisco that is going
22:19
SPEAKER_00: towards additional legal representation.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: And we also,
22:23
SPEAKER_00: in the description of this episode and in the Substack,
22:26
SPEAKER_00: have a link that you can use to donate to help Udina get out.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: That fundraiser
22:34
SPEAKER_01: will happen on the 16th of September.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: So our tomorrow, your today.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: As you're listening, as you're listening.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And I really encourage you to look into that.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: But Kelly, what about you?
22:45
SPEAKER_00: What's your most memorable interview ever?
22:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there are two things that have been so memorable to me.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: One is when we brought in Ben Camacho to do some substitute co-hosting
22:55
SPEAKER_01: while you were away in China.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: It was wonderful to talk to Ben because he is such a local investigative reporter
23:02
SPEAKER_01: who loves his community in Los Angeles.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: And it really gives you the breadth and the universality Of the consequences
23:12
SPEAKER_01: of immigration enforcement.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: He's all the way across the country, you know, six hour flight all the way to Los Angeles.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: And he is bearing witness to and documenting and reporting on the same realities
23:23
SPEAKER_01: that I'm seeing in New York,
23:24
SPEAKER_01: that you, Matt,
23:25
SPEAKER_01: are seeing in D.C.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: And it meant a lot to me to bring him in and how much he kind of fit like a glove
23:30
SPEAKER_01: into everything that we are doing.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: The second thing was the interview that I conducted for our July 22nd episode.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: Kimberly Avalos,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: she is a documentary journalist and she released a mini documentary with
23:44
SPEAKER_01: the news movement that looked at her own uncle's self-deportation back
23:49
SPEAKER_01: to his home country of Ecuador.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: That story was absolutely devastating.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: The documentary moved me to tears and there is...
23:59
SPEAKER_01: Complete lack of resolution and a lack of justice in what happened to her uncle.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: The uncle basically had children who were held hostage by gang members in Ecuador
24:12
SPEAKER_01: before he realized,
24:13
SPEAKER_01: you know what,
24:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to go by myself to the United States to file an asylum claim.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: And if I get that asylum claim,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to protect my family and bring the rest of them to the United States.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: And then several years into his asylum case,
24:29
SPEAKER_01: He realized how much of a pyrrhic effort it was,
24:32
SPEAKER_01: especially under this administration.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And then one day,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: his son,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: who was in Ecuador,
24:38
SPEAKER_01: was driving a taxi, and the passenger in his taxi was targeted by gang members.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: And in an act of gang violence,
24:46
SPEAKER_01: the passenger and the son, who was a taxi driver of that car, were killed.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And what ended up happening then was his uncle found out.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: The last time his uncle even saw His son was before he left for
25:01
SPEAKER_01: the United States several years prior.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: He ended up,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: the uncle of Kimberly ended up self-deporting back to Ecuador and the first place
25:07
SPEAKER_01: that he went was the grave of his son.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: And the whole point that he even left for the United States was to keep his son safe
25:17
SPEAKER_01: and he couldn't do it because there wasn't enough time
25:19
SPEAKER_01: and his asylum claim was taking so long.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: And I remember when Kimberly said that he just broke down and said none of this was worth it.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, at the end, like, it's so devastating.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: It's so devastating to imagine that sacrifice.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: And we're so lucky to have gotten that story.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: And really encourage everybody here to go to the news movement and look
25:40
SPEAKER_01: at Kimberly Avalos' story documenting her own uncle's self-deportation.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: And then look at our And I just want to shout out all of the journalists
25:48
SPEAKER_01: who have helped us out.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: First and foremost, Ryan Mina.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: What a reporter.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: We have just been blessed that the community of folks working on this have really embraced us.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Austin Kocher,
26:29
SPEAKER_00: not officially a reporter,
26:30
SPEAKER_00: but one of the most important sources of information about this crisis.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: It's been unbelievable.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: And I'm so grateful for the opportunity to work on this amongst such a community of people.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: So many people.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: Refugees International is also a team that has been incredibly welcoming
26:44
SPEAKER_01: of resources, especially when talking about the international scope.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Of the enforcement apparatus that the Trump administration is constructing.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: This has international implications, geopolitical implications.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: Especially when it comes to deportations and what has been described
27:01
SPEAKER_01: as third country deportations,
27:02
SPEAKER_01: which is the deportation of migrants,
27:05
SPEAKER_01: not back to their country of origin,
27:06
SPEAKER_01: but to a third Otherwise unknown country that is not familiar to them
27:10
SPEAKER_01: in any possible way.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: All of which is to say almost everyone that we have ever reached out
27:15
SPEAKER_01: to has immediately said yes to coming onto the show and
27:18
SPEAKER_01: that underscores how important the story is.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: But we continue to need the help in making and keeping the lights on for the show
27:26
SPEAKER_01: and keeping the show going.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: If you know anyone who we should speak to,
27:29
SPEAKER_01: if you know anyone who should listen to the show, Please forward the show to them.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: Please let them know that they can email us with tips or ideas or comments
27:38
SPEAKER_01: at thisweekonice at gmail.com.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: If you go on to buymeacoffee slash thisweekonice or if you are a subscriber
27:46
SPEAKER_01: to our Substack, you can pledge a donation.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Everything about the show is donor funded 100%.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Your support means that we could keep doing this reporting
27:56
SPEAKER_01: and keep doing this news analysis and keep bringing in the incredible experts
28:01
SPEAKER_01: that are really holding power to account.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: It's really up to you to help us get the support that we can.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to drive this point beyond the limit,
28:10
SPEAKER_00: but just to let folks know,
28:11
SPEAKER_00: both Kelly and I are working on this while we are additionally doing other reporting
28:17
SPEAKER_00: to earn money.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: We're very happy to do it,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: and it's a major focus for us,
28:24
SPEAKER_00: but the more that we can rely on donations from our audience and support
28:29
SPEAKER_00: from you guys,
28:29
SPEAKER_00: which we've relied on so much already,
28:31
SPEAKER_00: the more time we can dedicate to this and
28:34
SPEAKER_00: the more stories we can bring forward amid this crisis.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Once again,
28:38
SPEAKER_00: if you wouldn't mind getting on Substack and shooting us a couple bucks,
28:42
SPEAKER_00: buy me a coffee, shooting us a couple bucks.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: It really makes a world of difference to us and enables us to pursue more aggressive
28:51
SPEAKER_00: and original on-the-ground reporting.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: And I know we've been teasing you guys with some of our on-the-ground reporting projects.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Those are tantalizingly close to completion.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: I am so excited.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, Matt, does that cover everything we wanted to talk about?
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just want to thank everyone again for listening.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank again all of our guests for joining us and for trusting us with their stories.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: I want to also thank our audience for tuning in and paying attention during this dark times.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes we joke about how dark this podcast is because it is dark.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: And if we have two good news stories in a week, I mean, that's our record.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't think we've had more than two, right?
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Have we had two?
29:37
SPEAKER_00: We had one episode where we had two good news stories.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Two good news stories.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: But that's at the core of the kind of reporting both Kelly
29:45
SPEAKER_00: and I have always pursued is we want to tell you about these really urgent issues
29:48
SPEAKER_00: that are life or death for people.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: And this is as life or death as it gets.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: So thank you again for listening.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Kelly, for doing this with me.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: It means the world to have a partner like you.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, stay safe.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: See you next week.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: See you next week.