Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION EP. 326 - The Oswald Puzzle Pt. 2

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JFK ASSASSINATION EP. 326 - The Oswald Puzzle Pt. 2 · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know what he's up to. It's picking
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: me like chicken, shocking me like corn, strowing me like
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: an ice.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't do sit ups, I don't do
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: chill ups.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: I don't do nothing but get up through them guts
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: with my jahns on.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: Bro, the hell did you talking about it? Then?
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Anybody?
• 0:31
  Speaker 5: I'll let all.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Y'all know my exercise is n you thigh bro, believe that.
• 0:37
  Speaker 6: Bro years old, stay to be shore bee send it's
• 0:47
  Speaker 6: a bee, mean that troom mean, sancho be snock.
• 0:51
  Speaker 5: Then y'all gonna rad.
• 0:52
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna mean sank your be your.
• 0:55
  Speaker 5: Bees and it's mean, and I'm meant show be mean.
• 0:59
  Speaker 5: Y'all sellom, show killee.
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: You're muted, dunk.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: And always happens, And here we go. Maybe what's up?
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: Everybody? Welcome to you, Episode number three hundred and twenty six,
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: The os Walled Puzzle, Part two. Uh, I'm not sure
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: what's going on, but I do know half of what's
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: going on.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: We just were informed a couple of hours ago that
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: David Boiling was not going to be able to be
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: with us here this evening due to an illness, which
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: is totally understandable. I'm not sure what's going on with Larry.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: He was supposed to be here and he may still
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: pop in. So it's been one of them days, so
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: we apologize. But you know, Larry was nice enough. Larry
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: and David were both nice enough to send us an
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: advance copy of their book, The Oswald Puzzle Reconsidering Lee
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: Harvey Oswald. Okay, and let me say this is a
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: very thick boy clocking in like betweenty four and five
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: hundred pages, and it's chock full of goodness, as per
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: the usual when you have somebody named Larry Hancock attached
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: to you book. I mean, this dude is one of
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: the most respected JFK researchers in the game today. Pardon me, uh,
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: let me wash down. This was a little KFC.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: That's mm hmmm.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: Sweet tea, baby.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Oh sweet tea. Let's say hi to a couple of
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: people in the.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: Chat before Joe, if you will.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Sure we have Trey who is on his way to
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: report as report right, Yeah, we would expect nothing less. Uh,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: mister Scott Edwards, and it is Scott's birthday today.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: Happy birthday, Scott, Hello Scott, Happy birthday Scott.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, and uh, yeah, I don't know his age. I
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: know he is going out for a big dinner tomorrow.
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: It's in the chat, Joe, but I'm not going to
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: out him. Yeah.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Well he's a good planner because he planned his birthday
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: dinner for tomorrow night and not Friday night. Oh, being mindful.
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: We appreciate that. Yes, I hope you have the happiest
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: of birthday there.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, for sure, Hello, mister James Smith. Hopefully Joe has
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: had a chance to watch Office Space since last week.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I haven't watched it since last week. I have seen it,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I am missing the reference.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: That is a great movie. I love that movie.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: It is and my favorite part is when they interview
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: the guy and he's like, what do you do well?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: I come in fifteen minutes late. Then I stare at
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: my computer for an hour.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: And he moving the guy around. I just want yeah,
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: you bring me down here there.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: South to West should be a good show. Yes, we
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: expect Larry to be in momentarily.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: Ship out of that copy machine. M Yeah, the Beefty boys.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: He says, thanks very much, Scott, sixty five years of nonsense.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: You're not sixty five yet himself, He's like fifty five
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: but I think he lives in New Jersey, which is
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: not far.
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: From me, so Jersey boy.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see Zendar sixty one, how do y'all? Howdy, Sally,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: good evening.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: A recent spook Zendar? Thank you, yes, thank you, sir, Hello,
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: Sally m M.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Paula Jane of course is here? Mark says, who did it?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: We'll get into that later, we don't eb. Yeah, the mafia,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: the CI.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: A mack Wallace, the c I, A L. B.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: J and Uh Anthony greeting from Melbourne, Australia, and here
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: we go.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: That's true, Anthony. Yeah, I think that's our carpet. It's
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: either our carpet or our real estate. A.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Timothy Ryan, what's up? Big Joe? And Jojo? Big Robin Jojo?
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: What's up?
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Uh?
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: Give me another five years?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Robert Oswald's ghost in the his house? Perpetual Concepts?
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: What's up? PC?
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Big Money Alpha sixty six? Howdy, Uh, let's see t D.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Of course we can't forget Tiny Dancer, don't forget. Don't
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: act your age unless you have to.
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: That's right. You're only as old as you feel, and
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: today Rob feels about eighty two years old. But we
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: will get through this, I promise. Yeah.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And Scott said he was born in New Jersey but
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: lives in Canton, Ohio. Okay, there we go.
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: Y it's home of the Hall of Fame.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah and tiny as you know, Ruby has been
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I am on in a safe house or on the
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: lamb as the mafia would say. And Ruby is not
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: allowed at.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: This dog's allowed.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she is with my mother, but she will
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: be back by next week's members only, so.
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: By then she will forgotten who in the hell Joe
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: BURRELLI is.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: No and Jack Taylor as well.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: So oh John, thank you, buddy, thank you, thank you,
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: what's up? Thank you for the super chat. But I
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: appreciate you.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Hey, John, thank you so much.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: And I got a special shout out Joe. We're not
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: going to see her in the chat, but she is listening,
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: and that would be our rocket queen Colleen, who's in
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: the process of moving, which sucks hard, if you're telling me. Yeah,
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: So I thoughts some prayers go out to Colleen. Hopefully
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: she's like like I told her, Hopefully she's just directing
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: traffic like put this over there, move this here, and
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: not actually doing any physical labor. Ah.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, hopefully she has a moving company or some
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: friends to help.
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: Right, So, what is up Colleen? We know you're listening, yep.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: And rest perpetual concept concepts. Wesley Fraser did it, then
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: went on to play Wesley and Mister Bellow Belvedere Rest
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: in Peace.
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: H I love those old school uh sitcoms. Man, They
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: don't they don't make them like they used to do.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: They really don't. They really don't.
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: They don't.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, mattresses on the lamb, that is uh.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: There was Colleen popping in.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Oh Colleen, hopefully your move is going well, ma'am?
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: What's up growing's truck? We see you in here? Why
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: would I as well be stupid enough to have to
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: leave spence shells all over the floor. That is a
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: good question, one that we've pondered on the previous shows
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: of those shells just happened to fall directly under the
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: rifle instead of being ejected forcefully to the right and
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: then ping, ping pinging off the floor even further.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: But right, and we covered last week how how some
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: of the gentlemen on the fifth floor heard the discharge
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: of the shells hitting the ground, but not all of them. Yes,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I think Jarmon did. I don't think Bonnie Ray did.
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: Oh no, Colleen earned a seventy year old mom. Oh
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: my gosh, I know you're hating it. Oh boy, that
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: is brutal.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And we have bungled in. Hello, mister Bungold. How are
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: you as we are waiting for Larry hopefully to come
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: in soon, mister fillibustering, Yes, hopefully we don't have to
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: do it for that long, but.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: Because we had his time zones fucked up, but we'll see. Yeah,
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: all right, Paul, howdy, it's our buddy, Paul. What's up? Buddy?
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: Mum mark who picked them up and three them?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: There?
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah? They were somebody picked them up and put them
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: back down to be my guess, you know the dp D.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: If there was any shots fired from that window, it
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: could have been a complete setup with somebody just placing
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: the shells there and not thinking, oh, you know, the
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: rifle should probably eject these, you know, and just kind
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: of fling them a little bit. But instead you just
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: put them on the floor kind of close together, and yeah,
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: who knows, right, Yeah? Oswald never saw the end of
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: that movie. Ain't that a bitch? War as hell? And
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: so I was not knowing the end of the movie.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of an ironic title, right, And I think
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: he learned that, maybe he didn't realize it when when
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: his spy games he was playing did not end up
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: well for him, which is a big part of the
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Oswald Puzzle book, and his games might have caught.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: Up with him, and we'll get into that, but yeah,
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: I mean the book itself is of course all about
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: Lee Harvey Oswald and the enigma that he was as
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: a person when you block out all the bullshit of
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: the pictures that the Warrant Commission wanted to paint this
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: guy as. Okay, what they painted him as and who
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: he actually was are two totally different things, you know.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: And it starts from a messed up childhood, an overbearing
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: mother or maybe not enough bearing mother, you know, absentee father,
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: father figures. You know, there's a big age gap between
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: him and his brothers, especially with John Pike or Pick.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: And you know Oswald had a rough moving around so
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: much and going to all these different schools and all
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: these different states. Of course, you know, somebody like that's
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: going to have some behavioral issues, some discipline issues, and
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: all of these factors, you know, growing up molds you
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: into the person you're going to be as an adult,
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: and sometimes that's catastrophic and leads you down a path
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: of I mean easily, Joe, he could have been easily
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: led down a path of crime, you know, burglary, you know,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: or you know, a thief, you know, murderer. Well you know, yeah,
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: but you get what I'm saying, you know, But what
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: it turns out to be is, you know, they try
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: to paint paint as anti social, a loaner and all
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: this stuff, and at various stages of his life you
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: can see that that's just not true. He had friends
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: in school, he had friends in the Marine Corps, he
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: had friends in Russia, he had friends when he came back.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: Was he a peculiar guy? Yeah, he was a weirdo, right,
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: But I think that if if you got into a
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: conversation with Oswald and you could hold your own, you know,
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: with with what he was saying or counterpoint or viewpoints,
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: I think that he would you could earn his respect.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: You know, I think he didn't suffer fools lightly, at
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: least in his mind, right. But you know, he was
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: able to befriend people like George de Moorn Shield, you
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: know somewhat, Michael Payne. You know, I think if you're
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: hanging out with somebody and you're going to these aclu
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: rallies together, and you know, there's got to be an
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: element of some kind of friendship. It's not just like
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: a forced well we said we have to hang out,
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: so I guess we got to hang out, you know
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: kind of thing. You know, of course, after the fact,
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: nobody was Oswalt's friend. Nobody wanted to be anywhere near
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: this dude. Nobody wanted to acknowledge they ever talked to him.
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: You know, of course, you want to distance yourself from
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: this guy as much as possible, considering the horrible thing
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: that he's accused of doing. And when it comes to
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: one of the most often debated topics of Lee Harvey
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: Oswald is, of course, what was his motive Joe to
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: shoot John F. Kennedy. You know, supposedly we know that
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: he read two books, Profiles and Courage and another William
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: Manchester book about John F. Kennedy. Everything you've ever heard,
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: like from Marina or Ruth say that he admired John F. Kennedy,
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: thought he was a great American, happy that he was president,
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: and it just doesn't jive with the fact that he
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: just decided one day he's going to kill him, you know.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: I mean, and when you think about things in these
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: personal lives that were so often forgotten, you know, I'm
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: sure it was national news in August of nineteen sixty
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: three that the Kennedys had just lost their son. They're very,
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: very young, infant son.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Patrick was Yeah.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it was devastating for them, devastating.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it didn't Marina kind of sympathize with with Jackie
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: or something like that.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you naturally would. Nobody would wish down
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: on their worst enemy. I mean, that's worst, that's true,
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: And to.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: Think, you know, Okay, this guy's just gone through this
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: horrible ordeal, you know, losing a child. Now we're going
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: to kill him, you know what I'm saying, Like, that's
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: a pretty pretty shitty person that could do that, you
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: know what I mean?
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, for sure, And it's a you know, you
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: think of Lee and his Marxist views and Kennedy being
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: considered as at least by the far right as a
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: communist right seeking not nuclear war with Russia, it doesn't
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: kind of jive that Lee in all his studies of
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: geopolitical issues, would would be adamant to take out JFK
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: because if you have any foresight, I'll be J's gonna
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: take over.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: It.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: It really doesn't make sense. I mean, I think the
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Walker shooting for Oswald for Lee makes much more sense
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: than the JFK killing and not killing. I'm saying the
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: attempt on Walker right right ideologically?
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And and you know a lot of people, like
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: the poo pooh Oswald is is having shot at Walker, right,
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: they just don't believe it, you know. But when you
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: put together, okay, the letter to Marina about that, you
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: know that in case I get caught letter, here's what
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: you do. Coupled with the fact that you know she
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: later after she was assured that nothing she would say
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: could be held against her or whatever, she did come
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: out and admit to having conversations with Lee about that.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: And you know, supposedly Oswald had in his possession, of course,
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: found in Ruth Payne's garage, you know, pictures of General
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: Walker's house, which puts him in the vicinity of course,
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: you know, So why would you go take pictures of
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: Walker's house?
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Two pictures of the of behind Walker's house the alley.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I believe we're found in this possession so right that
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: it's it raises eyebrows for sure.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, to me, like I said, it's all
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: about motive. Unless this guy was so despondent and so
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: done with life, you know that he just didn't have
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: any sliver of hope for his future, you know what
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: I mean? Then, to me, the only motive is ideology
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: or money, right, Yeah, And I highly doubt anyone proposed
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: an offer of money to Oswald to kill President Kennedy,
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, because they would likely have
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: tried to leverage at least something up front, you know,
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: and we don't have any evidence of that.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Well, there is the Alvarado thing in Mexico City that Tall.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Bunked right right right a lot of detective tests and
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: failed it miserably.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's just covered in his book and in
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: the Oswald puzzle, and I think they come to the
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: same conclusion. And see, I actually tried to withhold him
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: from FBI interrogation by giving him over to I think
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: it was the Mexican police. I think it was covered
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: in chapter one. They and he kind of gave the
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: same story, but that is the only allegation and that
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: was pretty much debunked her.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So, you know, like I said, when it comes
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: to motive, and unless he was just so despondent and
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: just done with life, that's the only way I could
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: see him doing it. And if that was his attitude
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: because he just didn't give a shit anymore about what
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: happened to him, that did not come across after he's
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: in custody, right, you know, he didn't say anything like that.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: He emphatically denied these charges. Everything that he said. He
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: was denying him having done something like this. He says,
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: I didn't shoot anybody, right, So, if you were doing
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: something just because you just didn't care about anything at
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: all or anybody anymore, that attitude would come across at
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: some point when you're in custody, either through questioning or
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: statements to the press. I mean, he had the press
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: of his fingertips every time he walked out the door,
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: every time he went to a lineup, every time they
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: moved him, every time, you know, and he had chances
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: to speak and he did. And we have a lot
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: of different interrogation notes from book out and you know,
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: Harry Holmes and Fritz and none of this stuff is
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: in there, you know. And if he did something that
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: he was proud of doing, you know, if he truly
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: was a Castro supporting Marxist slash communist, if he truly
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: was pissed at Kennedy over the Bay of Pigs debacle
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: and all of that, and you know, then he would
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: have said something like that to to be like, you know,
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: a martyr, you know, like Viva fidel I did this
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: for you, you know, something like that. Yeah, but we
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: have none of that.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he would have known he was done and caught
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: at that point.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, this guy just had a baby a
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: month before the assassination, I understand.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: They always say, well, he went back that Thursday night,
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: he tried to reconcile with Marina. They had been trying
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: to go back to Russia. That wasn't happening. He went
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: to Mexico to try to go through Cuba to get
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: back to Russia, and that doesn't happen, you know. But
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: I don't think things were that bad at that point
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: in time to constitute what happened on November twenty second,
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: nineteen sixty three. You know, unless their relationship was so terrible,
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: which you know, of course nobody's there in their intimate
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: moments or their intimate discussions or or what's going on.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: You know, I can imagine that it wasn't good. You know,
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: they come back and Marina thinks that they're going to
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: live the good American life, you know that. You know
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: that they've heard about that they see on their you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: TV or whatever, and have all these you know, luxuries
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: and live high on the hall here in the United States.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: And then you know, she's in these shitty apartments.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: You know, they don't have anything. They don't have a
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: pot to piss in except their clothes, what little clothes
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: they have, maybe some pots and pans. You know, she
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: wants things like washing machines and you know, stuff like
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: that to make her life a little easier, you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: because back then they didn't have pamps or loves or
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: anything like that. You had diapers. You had to you know,
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: dump the shit out of them and scrub them on
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: the you know, and if you don't have a washing machine,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: you got to do this stuff in the sink with
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: a scrubbing board. And you know, two kids and diapers,
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, I mean, yeah, I can imagine.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think there's a lot to what you're saying.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Marina definitely, I think, even back to Russia had this
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: idea of the United States as being I don't know
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: if exotic is the right word, but some new She
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: was excited by Oswalt unlessen Oswalt when he was in
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Russia was getting paid. I think it was seven thousand
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: rubles by the Red Cross and a similar amount by
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: his factory. He was making a lot of money. The
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Russian government had given him his own apartment in Minsk.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: It was kind of baller, like a pad. He was
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: involved with many girls. I think he in the book,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Larry said he had tried to marry two of them
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: what's the word proposed, sorry, proposed to two girls before Marina.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: And he was kind of like a player, and like
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: we talked about during episode one Rob with Larry also,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: it was the type of character to get bored easily,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: and he ended up contacting both the Russian and American
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: embassies trying to get back. They eventually were successful in that,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: and then only a few months later I think it
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: was and I was surprised to learn the six months
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: after they got back on the mass Dam. He's writing
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: letters to the Soviet embassy trying to get Marina back.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: So the honeymoon phase did not last long. And you know,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: he was balling in Russia. He was a mysterious figure.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: There's not many Americans that are chilling in Russia in
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. In nineteen sixty two, this.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: Is not so.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: And he had a good amount of money, an apartment.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: So things changed significantly when he came back and Marina
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: realized that, wow, he's really not that much. He doesn't
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: have a house, he doesn't have a car, he doesn't
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: have any money.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: You know, yeah, it will help him at all.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And and Larry talks a lot about this back
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and forth relationship going on with Marina and Lee, so
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: and this is consistent between and I think even going
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: back to Russia, when Marina stayed with her family for
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: a few weeks or a month or two, right, she
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: went back and then they came back together. And you've
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: I think we've all been that type of relationship right
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: at some point in our time that you have maybe
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: a toxic relationship, you have a great chemistry with a
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: girl initially, what.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: The sex is so good you put up yeah, and
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: it outweighs the sex, and then it's like okay, yeah.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: And then things pull you apart, and then you miss
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: each other and you come back together and then repeat
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: the process. You get some more fights, you go back
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: and forth, and we've gone through letters on past episodes
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Rob of Marina and Ruth, and Ruth is.
• 29:51
  Speaker 7: I think.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Genuinely concerned about their relationship, about Lee's ability to provide
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: for Marina and their daughter and their upcoming second daughter.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: That's maybe why she takes them in. I mean, I
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: think there are other things going on there as well,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: of course, but I think there was a personal sympathy
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: that Ruth had towards towards Marina, and of course maybe more.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: But this pattern repeated itself, and in the book what
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Larry and David really do well is they prove the
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: consistency of how this pattern repeated itself since they met,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: even going back to Russia, going back, you know, to
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: a few months after they got back in the United States,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: to all the way up into the assassination. This was
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: a constant back and forth moving together. Lee tried to
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: get a nice apartment in New Orleans. Marina was disgusted
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: by it. Right, this is just as it's constant.
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and if look, if anything, you know, if Marina
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: was anything like post assassination, like as promiscuous as she
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: was pre assassination, you know, while as well as to work,
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: if she's stuck at home with the kids, you know,
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: and we.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Have Larry on Oh, I got hey, Larry, how y'all?
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: Well how are you doing.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: We're in Oklahoma waiting for our next arctic blast to
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: come in this weekend. So me, I'm okay, just waiting
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: for spring.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: I hear you, Yeah, I'm ready to man, I've had
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: enough of this cold already.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: About a week is good enough for me. You know,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: It's like, okay, it's January, when spring start.
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: I hear you.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: Well, we've been ahead and started, Larry. But uh, we
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: were just talking about Oswald's possible because it's a big
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: question the motive for Oswald to shoot Kennedy if he did,
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: And we were just discussing the lack of motive if
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: you believe you know that he's not really a pro
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: castro supporter, the fact that he'd read this Kennedy biography,
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: he'd read profiles and courage never really had a bad
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: word to say about the Kennedys. And you got to
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: take in the consideration that Kennedy's had just lost a
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: son in August of nineteen sixty three, you know, and
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: then to go and kill this guy too, you know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: a couple of months later. It's pretty cruel, you know.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, so what do you think about the Oswald
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: motive for the shooting?
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Well, right off, I figure if the Warrant Commission couldn't
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: find one and they were really looking hard for it,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: then I probably can't find one either. I mean, as
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: you said, Rob, they talked to people that, you know,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: they were hoping to get something, you know, political, like
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: he's radically political, that's whatever. And the people they talked
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: to kept saying, you know, he liked JFK's integration program,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: school integration. He was very much in favor of the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: administration's racial policies, the economic justice he was writing about that.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I think one example is when he was on a
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: radio broadcast in New Orleans, they actually the host kept
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: pushing him to say something bad about Kennedy, you know,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: in regard to Cuba, like you know, this is all
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Kennedy's fault and everything. And I also would not do it.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: He pushed back and said, you know, there's some things
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: I have problems with the administration policies about Cuba, and
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I've had problems, but not with JFK, you know, as
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: an individual. So even they couldn't couldn't push him into
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: saying that it's just not there.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was saying, you know, he had every opportunity,
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: even after he was in customed to speak out and
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: say something, but it was always just denials. You know,
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: I didn't shoot anybody. I don't know why they're doing
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: this to me, you know, And if he was proud
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: of what he had done, he would have said something.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Oswell never shuts up when you know. It's like, if
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: there are two things that are really atypical about Oswald,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: one is he speaks his mind. You know, that would
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: be strange for him not to speak his mind, you know,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: especially if he's done something he was He spoke his
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: mind in the Marines, got him into trouble, spoken spoke
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: his mind in Russia, you know, staged a one man
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: strike and a factor in Russia got his boss into trouble.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: You know, Oswell is not the guy to hold back,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: and as a teenager. He goes home with his buddy
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: and get kicked out of the house because he's talking
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: politics by you know, but he's dad. So yeah, I
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: would say if is Oswad wanted to make a point,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: he made a point. And and we know he's basically
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: like fearless. He's kind of a drama queen. We see
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: that in Russia, you know. So if it were since
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: and and he'd write about it, I think that's the
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: other thing that's a big piece of the puzzle is missing.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Ozma was a writer. We see in sixty three he's
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: writing monographs, he's even you know, he's writing about a
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: compromised position between capitalism and socialism, you know. And if
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: he was doing this for political motives, you can bet
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: there would be a manifesto and you can bet he
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: would have left it if he wasn't waving it around.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: And you can bet that the that the FBI, mister
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Hoover would have loved that. I mean, there's there's not
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: going to be. Hoover is going to be looking for
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: everything he can to tie Oswald to you know, a
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: communist plot or you know, as a communist agitator, and
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: he can't find it, you know. So yeah, no manifesto
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: is another good clue.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, something similar to like the we mentioned earlier about
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: the you know if I get caught letter, you know,
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: pertaining to the Walker shooting, you know, telling Marina what
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: to do and and and all that. But we don't
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: have that with this, you know, And he did.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: He did care about Marina and with a new baby.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I think I would have expected to see if he
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: was doing something that radical where he knows that he's
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: likely going to be killed or certainly go to jail
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: for forever, you know, that he would not have not
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: have made some provision or done something left to know,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: you know, that's again totally out of character. There's nothing,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: nothing that he did that is equivalent you know to
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: that note. It just like, no, I'm not going off
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: and kill the president and take care of the kids.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: You know. Instead, we find him the night of the
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: assassination going, don't forget to buy shoes for the baby,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: you know, for June, Like, no, just doesn't fit.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And and Larry, before you came on, as we
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: were kind of fillip bustering, we were talking about Lee
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: and Marina's relationship and kind of back and forth and
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: how they had this kind of whirlwind romance, right, and
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. Did Marina go back with
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: her family for a few weeks in Russia.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: Or a month?
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: And this and one of the best thing about your book,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: and we let up to this and talked about it
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: before he came on, is the consistency of Oswalt's behavior
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: and especially with this relationship with Marina, and you could
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: see it with Ruth and everything. It was a back
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: and forth. And we've all had these, at least I
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: have had these type of relationships where you know, you
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: break up and then you get back together, and then
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: you break up and you get back together. Of course,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: when you have a kid and it's the nineteen sixties,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: there's it's different than what I had dealt with. But yeah,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: if you could talk a little bit about about kind
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: of their back and forth.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was a short romance and you can
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: see that that's quite clear. He Lee at that point
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: in time in Russia was very much into women, you know,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: and he'd already proposed once and he'd been rejected. And
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: we know from Lee's own letters. I mean, we know
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: this from Lee, we know this from from Ernest his
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: friend in Russia that he was essentially on the rebound.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: You know. He even writes a letter after he gets engaged, going,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm still hung up on what's her name,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: you know, but it's going to be better, you know.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: So it was very entangled romantically at that point with
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Russian women. So it was a whirlwind romance. And Marina
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: said that himself. You know, he dated there heavily. He
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: showed her a good time. They were always out doing things.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: You know, he was very very passionate. And then okay,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: we get married and not just get married. Okay. What
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: he did not do and I think we've discussed the
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: fact before. It's not that Oswald could not be self centered.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: It's not that Oswald. You know, Oswald did not say, hey, Marina,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: we're going to get married, and by the way, we're
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: going back to the United States. He didn't tell her that.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: He didn't even disclose that until after the marriage. Not
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: that she really objected, because there's a clear record of her,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: you know, dating foreigners and being interested in, you know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: going overseas. But so he didn't reveal that. It's kind
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: of like, oh, okay, so and then he starts this
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: like year long crusade with the State Department trying to
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: get back in, and you know, I think some of
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: us have missed the point. It's like, nobody just let
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: him back in easily. Look at the State Department memos,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: and they didn't like Oswald from the big go because
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: they thought he was obnoxious, you know, and they thought
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: he was self centered. And so when he comes back
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: and wants to come back in, it's like, sorry, you know,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: you were nice the first time you were here. Why
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: should we pay attention to you. But Oswald Oswa always
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: says his homework, he knows he didn't sign any paperwork.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: He knows he's in there legally. I mean, he did
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: have a have a passport that allowed that he had
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: not done anything illegal, which is which is why he
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: could make a statemente Again in that radio interview we
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: talked about before, it says I was under the legal
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: protection of the American embassy when I was in Russia,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: which is absolutely legally true. Now not that Oswell's kind
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: of like not that he didn't say, and the State
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Department people like me, no, no, So yeah, he was
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: legally under protection. But for a better part of a year,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: you know, he is fighting to get back in and Marina.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: As soon as the Russians realize that, Marina starts being
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: harassed as well. She gets you know, her she's a
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: member of a couple of different parties. You know. Uh,
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: they start harassing her, they drop her membership, you know,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: and she gets stressed. So I think when she she
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: gets stressed from Oswald, certainly after a few months later on,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: it'll be she gets stressed by Oswald after a few weeks,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: but you know, at that point in time, but she
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: also gets stressed by this this effort, you know, for
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: her to leave Russia because they're making it tough on her.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: So she goes back and lives with her parents for
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: a time. That's kind of like their first separation, and
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: that will become a routine pattern once they're back in
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: the US. But I wouldn't blame it all on Oswal
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: at that point, other than his quest to come back
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: to the US has kind of got him in a
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: logjam with the State Department. They're asking him to do things,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: like they're demanding that he come back to Moscow. Well
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: he's not allowed to travel, you know, you know, so
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: he actually has to sneak off work and big back there.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: Then then they demand that they he traveled with her,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: you know, so they're you know, they're putting out roadblocks.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of stress during that period of time.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Plus you're having a new baby, right, I mean, there's
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of stress during that first period of time.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think, Larry, one of the key points
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: is that the lee in Russia was a different lead
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: than the lead that returned to the United States. Right,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: And we were kind of leading up to this before
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: he came on. He was mysterious American in Minsk. He
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: was had his own apartment. He was, like you said,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: active with the ladies. He was doing certain things with
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: the girls from the language school. Right, is that kind
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: of what he the ones.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: He did, that's where he made most And he even
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: writes again this is not he even writes about his
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: quote unquote conquests. Yes, and there are a fairly short period,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: you know, a week, a couple of weeks again, which
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: again the Warrant Commission's effort to paint him as anti
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: social doesn't really doesn't really stack up too well to
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: his effort his initial time in either Japan or Russia.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and he was. That's a statement that Marina
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: herself made not long after the assassination. I think that's
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: been totally misconstrued. Yeah, he was a different guy. He
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: was at his own apartment, he had money. They would
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: go out and do you know, things that opera, things
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: that she was used to doing, and you know, it
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: was romantic at that stage in time. And I suspect
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: mentally she's projectingly, you know, kind of being you know
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: up here in Russia and when we get to America,
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: you know, we'll get all the things that the Americans
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: have that we don't have here. Cars, marshy, machines, you know,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: those sorts of things, and of course which didn't happen.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so that's I think it's perfectly realistic to
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: say that the lead that she dated and fell for
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: and you know married within a matter of weeks a
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: couple of months was not the guy that she was
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: you know, in nineteen sixty three. And of course, you know,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: being realistic, that's I would say, does happen with young couples?
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: You know, what are the statistics? You know, I think
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: car statistics now would suggest that it's not unusual for
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: young couples that have a short time together to break up,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: to separate, to get back together. So again, that's not
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: really unique for Lee, and.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: They were both what twenty one years old or something
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: at the time, or early twenties.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, when you got a figure too. I doubt
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: Lee was very much a ladies man in high school,
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: what little high school he did go to. And then
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: of course he's going to the Marines where there is
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: no women around, and then he leaves the Marines and
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: then he's on his way to Russia immediately. So the
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: fact that he even knew how to speak to a
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: girl is pretty crazy. You know, from practically having no
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: contact with females or anything to being in Russia and
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: being this new American guy with this funny accent. I
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: don't know about you, Larry, but I'm always a sucker
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: for like a British accent or something.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Add some flavor to it. Yeah, he as a jokes
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: during in school. Yeah, but there's no sign that he
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: had any dated or had any romantic relationships. However, my
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: friend Jack Swhite did tell me that after he had
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: and Jack had been stationed at Sugi arrived shortly after
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Lee had left. You know, he went at and re
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: interviewed afterwards. Uh, some of the guys that had been
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: there with Lee, and I think we can we can
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: pretty well point to particular point in time where Lee
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: has his first experience with girls and his first serious experience,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: and and you know, for after that point in time,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: for a few months, it's really serious girl stuff. You know,
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: he's in the clubs, he's he starts to drink. This
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: is this is a brand new Oswald. So that Oswald
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: resurfaced in Russia for a time and then then went
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: away again. So you know, it's his behavior is situational
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: brand you and Russia never been out with women and
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: with marine buddies and going to clubs.
• 47:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Uh. And then he gets to Russia and his new
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: friend Ernest knows all these women, you know, and at
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: the language school, and you know, knows the social scene.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: So when he's got an entree, that happens. And when
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: it doesn't, it doesn't. And when he's back in the US,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: it certainly doesn't. And Marina had reasons to complain. I
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: think that's, you know, not totally, although they did have
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: another child. But she's even in her in her letters
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: U and in her statement she complains about his lack
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: of affection and attention, and I think by that point
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: in time we can see that Lea is probably more
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: interested in reading and writing.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And uh, I don't want to jump
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: because I want to ask you a couple of questions
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: on chapter one, your viewpoints. But since you brought this up, Yeah,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: his initial kind of foray into that was in Japan,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: right when when he went out and and was getting
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: with girls. I don't know if it was that the
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Queen Bee or the Bluebird, maybe both, And one of
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: the things I found really interesting in the book. And
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: of course a lot of people familiar with this are
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: familiar with his contracting of a STD in Japan, but
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: I think it was that guy you mentioned his name,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Jeff had looked into the records of other people and
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: it was actually something in the water, which is why
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: they said his gone RHEO was sustained in the line
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: of duty, and not because he was on a covert
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: mission to to to you know, get to get with
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: some Russian spy at the Bluebird or whatever, right, or
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: Queen Bee like.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: That would be a tough covert mission. Yeah, we really
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: need to recruit marines to do that. You know, like
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: that never happens naturally. But no, Jack actually interviewed the
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: doctor more than just the records. Okay, he actually interviewed
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: the doctor, and in his book he goes into fairly
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: linked the dialogue with the doctor going, you know, this
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: was a real problem because I was having to treat
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: lots of people and at first we couldn't figure out
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: what it was and the stuff we were using, you know,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: that we thought for STD wasn't working. And he goes
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: into a you know, a long explanation. But the fact
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: they discovered it was not gottrhea, you know, it was
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: not an STD, and that they finally managed to find
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: a treatment for it. But that is why their records
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: were remarked within the line of duty, because if it hadn't,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: if it had been an STD, you know, that is
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: it's illegal. I mean, that is a citable violation of
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: military rigs. You're not supposed to be doing that, you know.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: But the doctor actually took the precaution of making sure
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: the people that he would treated for that particular thing
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: were covered by the entry in the records.
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: That makes sense.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And one more last thing about his kind of
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Japan adventures was that The only time where that you
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: discovered that Lee was really influenced by alcohol was like
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: a short time in Japan. Yeah, absolutely, as he's kind
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: of discovering himself and getting with whoever.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: And he had not gone out to even when they
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: had leave, when they had leaven training at his tech
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: schools or in his first station in California, he didn't
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: hit the bars with the guys. And actually one of
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: the marine officers that at that point that commented on
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: and Oswald was just like, he wasn't like the other
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: guys at that point in time. The other guy is
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: really you know, typical marines. His barracks buddies are going
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: to the bars, they're going to girls, and that just
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: was not what Lee was doing. I think what changed
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: in Japan, though, maybe the biggest thing that changed is
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: not just the alcohol and the girls. He made it
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: clear that that was also the first time that he
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: interacted with people that had his basic social beliefs let's
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: call him socialist beliefs. I mean, he had tried to
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: join the Young Socialist when he was a teenager in Dallas,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: and you know that hadn't happened. And he actually wrote
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: him and he said, is there a group here, I
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: can join the answers know or could I join one,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: find one, I'll make one myself. That didn't happen, but
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: he when he started visiting the clubs, he started running
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: into young Japanese twenty you know year olds that age,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: just same age, who were committed either communist or socialist,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: and they were talking about that manifesto. They were talking
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: heavy influence from Russian communism in Japan at that point
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: in time, and they were going for recruits, some of
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: them because they just believed it, some of them because
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: they were being influenced to go do that and recruit,
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: maybe not covertly, but he himself said that that's the
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: point in time that he really became interested in Russia
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: because of his dialogues with these young Japanese. That's another
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: thing that's very consistent about Lee. If you shared his beliefs,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: if you didn't make fun of his beliefs, if you
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: seem to be sympathetic, he would talk and he would
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: talk and he would talk. If you weren't, you know,
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: he becomes aggressive. You know, like I knew people like
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: that in college in the sixties, but you know that
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: I think it's not just the alcohol. It's the contact
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: with these young people for the first time that share
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: some of his world views and political views.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that might have led to his decision to try,
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: or at least a bit application to the Albert Schweitzer College.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: But before we move on from Japan, he did have
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: two court martials, one for misfiring a gun a pistol
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: that he was not supposed to have that I guess
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Grace's elbow right, And the second was pouring I think
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: it was a beer on a non commissioned officer in
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: one of the bars. Correct me if I'm wrong. And
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: that seems to be at least the pouring of the
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: beer part the most aggressive physically. Maybe Lee was, and
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: of course she's twenty. He's exploring, you know, he's drinking,
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: he's out whatever. And like we talked about in episode one,
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: he did not like taking orders. He was very much
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: against authority. He was a nonconformist.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: So anything the timeline is important there though, I mean
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: that the incident at the time that he bought a gun,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: obtained a gun and accidentally shot himself. I mean, there's
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: no really no sign that it was was if he
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: had again, actually I've seen some of the paperwork, and
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: Jack looked at some of the paperwork. And again, if
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: he had been trying to get out of the Marines,
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's not in combat. There's no real good reason,
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: kind of like I gotta get a wound to be
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: rotated out. There's no good They examined those kind of things,
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: and there was no sign in the investigation that anybody
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: thought that it was anything other than an accident. But
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: what happened after that is he did get court martialed,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: He lost a stripe. He was he was actually eligible
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: for corporal, and his job performance up to that point
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: had been quite good and it is very likely would
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: have made corporal. He got he got busted, lost a stripe,
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: and becomes very dissatisfied with with the Marines, with the system.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: So the incident with the with his n c O
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: happens after all of that. He's it's in a bar.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: He is he is still drinking, and it's in It's
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: not in a bar, it's not in the barracks or
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: anything like that. And he's the other thing about Lee,
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: and and again Jack, Lee was you said nonconformist. Lee
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: could do fine hit his job. He was rated when
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: his radar work was good, you know, his job skills
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: were good when he wanted to be. But he wasn't
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: good at chores.
• 55:55
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: His barracks mates talked about the fact that he wouldn't
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: keep his keep anything clean, he wouldn't help out, and
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. He even got subjected to a
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: couple of barracks parties, which if you've been in the military,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: you know what that involves. And it's not a fun thing.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: And but people did not want Yeah, yeah, scrub rush.
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: And so.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: You know, he could, as I said he could, Lee
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: could be an asked there. There's just there's no doubt
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: about that. We don't want to you know. Uh. And
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: if if it's not something Lee likes or wants to do,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: Lee's just not very excited about it. So by the
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: time we get to the conflict, he thinks, by the
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: time he gets with his conflict with the sergeant, that
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: he's getting KP, he's getting other duties, he's being treated unfairly,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: and he has an issue. I mean, he has a
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: basic military issue. This one's not political. This one is
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm getting duty assignments that I'm not being
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: treated fairly, and so I think it was he heard
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: the sergeant say something, or thought he heards the sergeant
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: say something, he had something, the sergeant said something, and
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: whether he threw the beer on him, what he really did,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: what really got him into trouble actually is not so
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: much the beer. Basically, he said, let's step outside, and
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: the sergeant and probably in good judgment, said no, let's not.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Why don't we just go to the brig, you know,
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: let's call the let's call e MPs, you know, And
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: that's where things really started to turn around for Lee
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: and he really he actually seemed to have backed out
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: of the club scene. That's when after that point in time,
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: he the reports are that he's he doesn't leave the
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: base that much, you know, after the brig against it
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: and he's you know, and the brig twice, you know,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: he starts reading, starts reading Russian, starts learn teaching himself Russian,
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: and pretty much by the time, he also had put
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: in a request for to stay in Japan to extend
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: a ture and that was turned down. So at that
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: point in time, it's pretty easy to see that that
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Lee is kind of the Marines are not going to
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: be what he wanted, and he starts looking. That's that's
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: when he starts looking overseas. He starts looking at Albert Sweitzer,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: applies to Albert Schweitzer. He's gotten his GT and he
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: gets his GED by the way he gets his GED
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: in Japan because he had not officially gotten a degree
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: and finished high school. And you know, so he's kind
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: of into an exit strategy by the time he gets
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: back into the US. But he is, interestingly enough, once
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: he decides to do something like that, he starts behaving.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: So when he's back in the US, his performance reviews
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: go up. And actually, I think, if I recall, he's
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: like a four point five on a five point scale.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: It's just like when he was a ruined in New
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: York City and the truant officer called him in and said, okay,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: either he straightened up or we're putting you long term
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: in this home. And he goes back to school and
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: gets a social participation five point zero review.
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: You know, if.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Lee can be whatever he wants to be at a
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: given time, you know, that is it's another thing. If
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: he wants to behave, he can behave. If he doesn't care,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: he doesn't care.
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: So let me ask you this. So do you think
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: his discharge, his early discharge, was orchestrated between him and
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: his mother to try to get him out of there.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: The reason I don't think so is he started sending
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: her money. Now, Lee is notoriously cheap. I mean, that's
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: just an established fact, asked marine, and she would tell
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: you that. But he's actually when he did not know
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: that she had been injured until he went back on
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: to leave and found out that she'd been injured, and
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: that she was actually getting you know, pay because she
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: had been in court, she'd had to she had actually
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: get a doctor to signeist. I would say at that
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: point in time, he was actually convinced that she needed
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: some help. However, I think after a couple of months,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: I think Lee thinking himself about it. It's kind of like, well,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm not excited about this, let's just go
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: for an early discharge. And he had already applied for college,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: he was already going, he was already listed to go
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: to college like a year spring session from Actually by
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: the time he got his discharge, it would have only
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: been about six months off. But no, I don't think
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: it was any particular ploy. I think it was just
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: I think it was situational at first, it might have
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: been serious and then he decided it's an opportunity.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in the book you stated and I
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: have this written down. By the time he got his
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: early discharge, it was only three or four months before
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: his reup, right, So, and and this had to do
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: with eventually his his trip to Europe and Helsinki. And
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: I have a couple questions on that. Uh, but he
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to go over there if if
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: he was still a possibly being able to call up
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: because I believe he was in a reserve unit at
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: the right point.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: And yeah, the key point about that is he wouldn't
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: have been able to go over there for any other reason,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: by the way, unless he educational. That's what he had
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: to to list for a purpose of his travel, which
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: which he did. You know, So I do I think
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: Lee was scamming the system about the college. I don't know,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: in all honesty, he could have been. He's pretty creative,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: he knows how to play the game. But I do
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: I do think it may well have been. The interesting
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: thing is when he originally applied for college, it's like
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: a year away and he's not put in for an
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: early discharge or anything like that. He just he's going
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: to have to serve out us to a duty and
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: there'd be like three or four months difference.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he told tell Gotto about that as well.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, But once he his mother, you know, once
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: that opportunity presents itself, it kind of looks like he
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: jumped at it and decided to go ahead and see,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: like advance his schedule and go ahead and get out.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: You know, he was getting out. There's no doubt he
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: was not going to renew, and quite frankly, with his record,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know that he would have been encouraged to
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: renew for another hitch.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, to two court martials. But actually that that's
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: a great segue into my next question, because do you
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: think that when he was discharged from his early discharge
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: to go visit his mom, that you know he had
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: talked to Nelson Delgado about going to Albert Schweizer College
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: and studying philosophy. I think it was Do you think
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: he knew then that he was going to go to Russia.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think that was a
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: I think that was a situational decision on his part.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: I think he really would have enjoyed going to college.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: That's the sort of thing he wanted to do. He
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: wanted to write about geopolitics. He wanted to write about
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: American life and Russian life. And in his own writings
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: and in his own remarks to other people, he talked
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: about wanting to be a writer and have experience is
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: that he could write about, you know, and and provably.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: By nineteen sixty two sixty three he was writing. Now,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: there's some handicaps with his writing, but that's what he
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: wanted to do, and he wanted to write about those subjects.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: That's very That's consistent with all his reading. That's consistent
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: with all his writing. You probably noticed the part with
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: one of his commanding officers talking about, you know, Lee
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: would get into geopolitical discussions and the officer was a
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: graduate in the Eastern University and Polisi, you know, and
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, this is embarrassing because this guy knows
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: as much as I do. You know, we don't want
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: to do that in front of the troops, you know.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: And Jack said he interviewed guys who said Oswell liked
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: doing that. Oswell liked showing up officers on points that
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: he knew more about than they did, so he was
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: a yeah, he was annoyed all about those things, the
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: things that you wanted to know about. Absolutely.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: So when do you think because he goes back to
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's Fort Worth, right, and visits Marguerite for
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: a few days. He gives her one hundred dollars, which
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: today is like a little more of her grand. He
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: then tells her he's going to New Orleans to get
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: a job, and then books fair to Europe or two
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: hundred and twenty dollars. I believe it was to France,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: which you know, easy math about twenty five hundred dollars.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: So this is, you know, twenty five hundred dollars trip,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: a grand to his mother. Not small payments here. When
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: did he just think he decided or pivoted to go
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: to Russia instead of Albert Schweiser College.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think is by the time
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: that he left Japan, he was saving his money. He
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: wasn't going out. Everybody's like Oswald just stays in the
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: barracks and reads. He's just he's saving his money because
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: at first he's going overseas to college, right, so he
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: is accumulating money he knows he needs to do that.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: I think he really he had decided. I think he
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: had decided by the time he got discharged that he
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: was going to go ahead. And I think at that
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: point in time, my best guess is he wanted to
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: see Russia. I think he was thinking he would go
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: see Russia, come back and go to college in Switzerland,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: not come back to the US, but come back from
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: a tourist, you know, weeks in Russia, see what it
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: was like, and come back to college in Switzerland. But
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that's that might have been what
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: he was thinking by you know, spring or something like that.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: But when you look at the letter that he writes
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: to his mother and to his brother as he's leaving
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: for Russia, he's decided. He's he's going to try to
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: get into Russia.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: He tells Robert to never contact him again.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So he's made up his mind by the time
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: he gets on that boat he is going to very
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: much try to get into Russia.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Hmm. It's fascinating.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: And he has the money. I mean he he has money.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: He has money enough to do it. I mean he doesn't.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: It's doable.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: I like this because it's a logical explanation for things.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: And instead of just going the easy route and saying, well,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: you know, he was recruited by the CIA to to,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: you know, infiltrate Russia as a spy and and and
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: all this jazz. But when when you stop to think
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: about Oswald and who he is and why he does
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: what he does, what you're saying, Larry makes a whole
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: lot more or sense.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: It may not be as intriguing or as sparkly as being,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: you know, this big CIA secret spy, but it does
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: make sense once you understand how Oswald thinks and maybe
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: the meaning behind some of you know, what he's doing
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 4: and why he's doing it. It does make a whole
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: lot of sense, you know.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: And I think the problem is that and I have
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: admittedly this was a problem for me too. We I
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: think we got we got used to look into Oswald
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: from the outside and trying to find things on oz
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: Well rather than looking into Hosital from the inside. And
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: you know, people took slices of Oswell at different points
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: and times, and it was mysterious. It's much less mysterious
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: when you look at Oswald and Toto, you know, and
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: look at the areas of consistency. And you know, is
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: he is he a bright guy? Yeah? Is he an
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: ass at times? Yeah? Can he be difficult? Yeah?
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: He is.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: He committed to his geo political view, absolutely, that's one
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: thing that's consistent, and he will argue with anybody at
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: any time about that. I think one of my fun
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: things is finding de Mornshield commenting that actually the reason
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: he kept hanging with Oswald and visiting with him was
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: he enjoyed how combative Oswald was and how committed to
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: geopolitical issues he was. Because de Moornshield's own son, he
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: sounds like he considered him kind of a woos not
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: a deep thinker, like, okay, he just repeats what he's told.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: You know, Oswald's more interesting my son is. And it's
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: funny because the son really disliked Oswald and the dad
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: really liked Oswald, which I thought was kind of a corroboration.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: It's like the Sun actually let Oswald and Marina live
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: with them for a few days at one point in
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: time was complaining about Oswald and Dad's going well, okay, Yeah.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: One thing we looked at a couple shows ago, Larry,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: was we kind of looked at Oswald's library reading list,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: and we were going through all of the books that
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: he was mowing through in nineteen sixty three, and it's
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: a fairly consistent pattern of him checking out three or
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 4: four books on a rotating basis and returning them all
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: within two weeks, which really you know what's forth. You know,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: I think some of his early reading was a lot
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: more geo politically driven, with biographies on like you know,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: mau Say Tongue and the Berlin Wall and all this
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: other stuff. And then of course later in nineteen sixty
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: three it changes more towards like Alis Huxley and Ian
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 4: Fleming and and all of this stuff. And one thing
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: that we came across, Larry, when we were looking at
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: the Warren Commission report that actually had where it broke
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: down when he checked these books out and when he
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 4: was returning them. We did find an anomaly in here.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: Larry wanted to get what you thought about it. I
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 4: have an up now, Rob Hey. Yeah, so on the
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: right side, Larry, if you look.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: Up four books on the nineteenth.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he had checked out four books on the nineteenth
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 4: and returned let's see four books back. I know, Yeah,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 4: the return date on these books, Larry is October third,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 4: nineteen sixty three. Now we know that Oswald was not
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 4: supposed to be in New Orleans on October third, nineteen
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 4: sixty three. So do you have an answer for this,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: or an explanation or an idea of what is going
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: on here?
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it seems to me that Oswell
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: exited New Orleans. Well, I will mysteriously. I won't say mysterious.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: Oswell exited New Orleans in a way that we don't understand.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not satisfied at all with his departure from New Orleans.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: I'm absolutely convinced that there were people in contact with
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: him in New Orleans. And I guess the point is,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: I can absolutely see him being offered a ride, offered
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: a flight whatever to get out of New Orleans and
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: leaving stuff with them. I don't put it out of
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: out of the idea that he left books with them
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: to check in, you know, I just don't, because you
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: don't have to check them in. You just dump them
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: in the book collection thing outside the library. It's not
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: like you have to interact with the library. As a
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: matter of fact, one of the questions that raises is
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: is it even possible that Oswald had put them in
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: a book drop and they didn't get process and checked
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: in for some time. My wife's librarian, you know, are
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: their holidays they just is it coincidence? It could be mysterious,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: somebody could have done it for him, or it could
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: have just been that he put them in a drop.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: Sometimes the libraries have remote drops, you know, local libraries,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: and he could have even put them in a book
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: drop other than the library where he checked them out
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: and they had to get processed. I don't know, just
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: guess on my part, but I will say I am
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: of the opinion that we have a very poor, poor
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: idea of what was happening with Oswald. And I do
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: not trust the official story from New Orleans, from New
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: Orleans to Mexico City, and I certainly can't solve it,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: and I don't know how we're going to, you know,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: I just want to be real honest about that. I am,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: as you see in the book, I am not absolutely
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be shocked if I found that Oswald not
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: only left books with somebody, I checked those in, but hey,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: take care of my rifle, you know, like, okay, fine.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 4: You know, maybe turned his books for him.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna go with my library drop box thing.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so Larry, uh you know, we knew you
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: were going to come on for a part two, and
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: we've done a couple of shows kind of leading up
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: and going into Oswalt and what are the ones we
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: did a weeks ago that Rob mentioned was going into
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: his library books and what he took out and was
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: there any pattern was the books he were taking out?
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: Did it get more radical? From April, May, May, June
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: all the way up to September? Right, did it get
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: more radical? We actually kind of found the opposite.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: But act an adventure.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm bringing that up on the screen and
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: we we ended up putting this in order, which took
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: a long time, but it was very interesting because Oswalt
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: was almost never late on returning a book, obviously going
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: to his frugality. Is that a word frugality? You know
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: what I mean? So he he did return these books,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: four of them on October third, sixty three, which would
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: be after he would I've been in Mexico City, And
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: not to your point, did he get someone else to
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: return them? We don't know.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 4: We just uh we that would be a big ask
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 4: of and we don't really know of any of his
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 4: New Orleans friends that would do that, you know.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: And it's not in the way. It's not in the way, Larry.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're going out of your way to go
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: to New Orleans from Mexico.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: When when is Marina gone? When is she out of
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: New Orleans?
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: Fourth?
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, late September, Latecember, Okay, So he would have had
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: it would have to be setting somewhere or or you know,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: left them with someone. And then the question is why
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: would you wait?
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 4: You know, yeh what?
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: And and the question was was he really gone from
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: New Orleans? Uh? And I have to raise this and
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: you've probably seen it from the book so far, David
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: and I. One of the things that we did, I
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: think was a good bit different. We dug more into
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: his interaction with the FBI, I think, quite frankly than
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: anybody has done. And one of our questions of two
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: big questions. First of all, Oswell repeatedly lied to the
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: FBI in New Orleans, big time. He hasd to meet
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: with them. He told them several lies about the FBCC
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: and what can only be considered a covert clandestine group.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Their names aren't public, their leader only name that anybody
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: knows is Hydell. They meet privately in houses, they don't
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: have public meetings. Meetings are not an announced in advanced
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, this looks clandestine to the FBI. It has to,
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: and he gives them certain documents and certain pieces of
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: paperwork that would support that story. This is an out
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: and out lie, a federal crime in two senses. He's
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: provided information and he's given documents. He could have been
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: locked up for that. And the FBI didn't particularly like
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: him anyway, you.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 4: Know, so theyviued him in Dallas when he returned from Russia, right,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: You know that it was the first time he talked
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: to him.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, actually three times in Dallas. Three times in
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: Dallas up to the point where he wasn't very cooperative.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: But finally they met with him personally and he said, okay, fine,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: if anybody a communist or subversive contacts me, I'll report
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: it now. Interestingly enough, that's somewhat as if he appears
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: to be doing that in New Orleans, but it's it's
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: all a lie. So he's gaming the FBI in New
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: Orleans and has really set him up self up to
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: be arrested and prosecuted. It's pure speculation on our part.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: If I will say this, if the FBI had been
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: performing according to practices, they would have listed Oswell as
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: a as a potential provisional subversive informant. He should have
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: been a p s A because he's offered them information.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, they should have been working
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: with him actively to put these guys under surveillance, you know.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: And as it turns out, they do. They go after
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: Hotel and this FPCC group in a big way. What
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: they don't do is go after Oswell in a big way.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: The surveillance they do in the inquiries they do are
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: on hidel for the better part of a month, and
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: they're leaving Oswell alone. You know. Was this Oswell's idea?
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but I will tell you well, I
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: will tell you by the end of August, Oswell has
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: every reason to be nervous about the FBI. Oswell would
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: have every reason. You know, at some point they're going
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: to catch up to this and they're going to call
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: him in and say, mister oswell Well, there is no highdell,
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: why did you lie to us? And you do realize
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: that's a federal crime, do you not? So he has
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: every reason to lay low, go undercover. Maybe he's still
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans. I don't know that he's not still.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: I'm totally unsure of this timeline. What I am I
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: am sure of is that by the time Osweald gets
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: to Mexico City, where I'm pretty convinced he was, he
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: has every reason to be concerned about the FBI because
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: he has lied to these people and they should not
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: be happy with his You don't lie to Hoover's FBI
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: and think that they're just going to say, oh, no harm,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: no foul.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's so funny you said that, Larry, because
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: in your chapter one viewpoints perfect segue here. I had
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: a couple questions because you talked a lot about how
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: certain FBI documents were uh either retyped in the case
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: of Lee's personal notebook, or leads not being followed up on.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: And one of the things you you explored was was
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: whether Oswald was a PSI personal source of information or
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: a paid informant. Right, And of course everyone after the
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: assassination was running for cover, right, and that's CIA, FBI, right,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: that's we know that. But you have some interesting anomalies
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: here with a hold on, let me read my small notes.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: With mister Debiri's for one thing out of New Orleans. Yeah.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: Also, and so John Faine did his initial uh FI
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: debriefing right, and he was kind of stand offish with them, right.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: And then when he was arrested after the fractice, he
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: requested an FBI agent and I'm blanking on his name quickly, quickly,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: thank you, sir. And you had talked a lot about
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: how a lot of the FBI agents hosty. They had
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: a kind of like a salesman, a quota right to
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: to get confidential informants or personal sources of information on
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: their payroll, for lack of a better term, And that's
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: kind of how they were judged.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 4: And why did.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: Oswalt not show up in a lot of these And
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: I think that's where William Walter comes in when he
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: says that he saw one of the documents that said
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: Lee could have been a personal source of information. But
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: the way it goes and there's a I used to
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: run a sales team and when you reach when you
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: open an account, and it's they're like, oh, I think
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: about it. You're not filling out all the information, right,
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: You're you give one document. You need verbal notice. I'm
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: trying to get this guy as a source of information,
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to be corroborated with other FBI documents,
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: and that might have what happened there.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I would say Walter. I totally believe Walter.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: And one of the reasons I totally believe him is
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: there should have been I mean, this is one of
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: those cases of uh, you know, the classic you know,
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: what should be there that isn't there. If they were
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: following regular protocols and practices, there should have been a
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: subversive file on Oswald. How could there not be. This
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: guy is offering infor there's there's it's like he's offering
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: information of the FBI, and he's offering information that is bogus.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: They don't know that yet, But for a time, there
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: absolutely should have been a file. Now does it stay
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: there forever? I don't think they had resolved their issues
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: with Oswald even by the time he got back to Dallas,
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: you know, the the New Orleans file had just gotten
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: to Dallas, you know, and we never get a dialogue
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: on you know, what's what's Dallas going to do about
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: the fact that we now know he lied to New Orleans. Uh,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: we never you know, all of that is it's out
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: there in the field offices, in saw files and somebody's desk,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: it's not in the headquarters file. And one of the
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: things we did discover is there are real disconnects between
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: what's in the headquarters file on Oswald and what's out
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: there in the field because it looks like somebody you
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: never have the original like you don't. We don't have
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: the original interview notes with Oswald and New Orleans. We
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: just have what they reported, you know, after the fact.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: So in any event, yeah, I was but to sum
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: all of this up back to your question, Rob, I
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: have every reason to think Oswald was concerned about the FBI,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: concerned about how they might follow up on him, and
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: might have been lying low and on the way out
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: of New because at some point in time they're going
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: to come after him. They would have come after him
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans and held him to account. The other
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: thing that really kind of gets me whenever I look
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: at that list that you put up, I was reading
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: most of those same books that same year, both the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: James Bond books and the science fiction. It's like I
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: was not as air you Dight as Oswell and some
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: of the higher level books saved reading. Although I thought
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: I was pretty smart at the time. But you know,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: it's kind of like everybody was reading James Bond books. Hey,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: you got him, and you read it in two hours
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: and you're done, and you go on to the next
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: Bond book. But I think one of the since we
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: talked about books, I think one of the things that
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: captures Oswald and how different he was at his age
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: and at his time. In the Marine files, one of
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: the marine's questions said, you know, when we were on
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: the troop ship to Japan, Oswald is reading a book
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: called Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman, which this marine
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: had no idea. It's like, is it a botany book
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: or whatever? But you know Oswald was Oswall was, I
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: would say, reading way above. But then Oswald is also
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: he reads science fiction, he reads you know, James Bond,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: so he can go either direction. He can read for
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: just entertainment. One of the things you brought up, Rob,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: I think that has changed though. The difference between sixty
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: three and earlier years is much of what he's reading
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: in sixty three is magazines. He has subscriptions, to a
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: lot of magazines. He has subscriptions to, you know, national
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: political magazines. He has subscriptions to the Militant Socialist Worker,
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: you know, and he has he's he's reading and how
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: do we know this? He may not have had descriptions
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: some of these, but when his stuff is collected from
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: his personal belongings, has a number of shooting and hunting magazines,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: and he is he's always liked guns. I mean, there's
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: no Alba's description of his behavior in New Orleans is right.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: You know, he would always be reading gun magazines. So
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: he is not one dimensional. He really is. But again,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: it kind of reminds me a little bit of myself
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty three. Did we have gun magazines around
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: the house? You bet we did. Did we have all
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: sorts of rifles around the house? You bet? You know this?
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: This is not unusual for someone raised at the place
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: in time he was raised.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And just one more question to fall upon that,
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: uh you. So the FBI had retyped one page of
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: Lee's personal notebook, and I guess that was to remove
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: the referenced to the Hosty Marina contact in October.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: Maybe no, no, that's that's in well, no, that's uh,
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: that's when he's back in Dallas out late October, right. Yeah, Listen,
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: they visited the they visit the pines and talk with
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: Marina and that that's that's what was removed. That contact
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: was removed, right, So that goes a plate number and
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: all that. Yeah, and that that goes along with the
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: fact that Oswell's in a letter written shortly after that.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: Oswell and Marina are both writing the Soviet Embassy about
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: going back to Russia. Okay, but Oswell complains to them
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: that the FBI is even trying to get Marina to
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: defect and they're harassing him. They're trying to get Marina
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: to defect. You know, he's really trying to sales pitch, right.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: But that's not unlike what he said in the Soviet
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: Embassy in Mexico City when he goes all drama queen
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: and you know, does his act there and says, I'm
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: afraid for my life. The FBI is after me. Well,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: no doubt the FBI would have been after him. It's
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: you know, they're a little slow. But one of the
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: things we don't understand. Stu and I learned this when
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: we were working on the MLK assassination is we always
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: thought that the FBI was like this souper for well
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: organized organization, and they weren't. I mean, they were compartmentalized down.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: Each office ran its own business. And did they advise headquarters. Yeah,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: they're pretty good about that because Hoover would be all
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: over them. Did they advise other offices sometimes and much
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: more slowly. It's like, you know, their priority is looking
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: good the headquarters and if they have something that might
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: be of interest to someone, they'll get it out there eventually.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 4: Well, one other thing I wanted to touch on about
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 4: Mexico City, I mean, because it's like you said, Larry,
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 4: it's it's all over the place. But there is one
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 4: thing that always intrigued me, and it's from that book
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 4: Passport to Assassination, and it's the scene where they describe
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 4: Oswald coming into the Russian embassy with a pistol and
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 4: you know, threatening to kill himself and being in hysteric tears.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 4: Uh you know, And this this whole scene is like
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 4: when I first read it in that book and I
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 4: was like, this sounds totally made up, But I was
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 4: just curious to get your your thoughts on that. Yeah.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: Well, as I said, it's the point of continuity by itself.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: I'm totally with you, rob If. But if you if
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: in the long string of things, okay, Oswell inside Russia.
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 4: Called in.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Coswell has been called in to the tourist office
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: and told he can't stay, he's going back. They give
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: him a train trick at ticket and they tell him
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: your guide will pick you up at the hotel and
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: she's going to put you on this train because you
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: are leaving. So what does he do? He times it perfectly,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: and this is drama. Just before she's supposed to be
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: there and knock on the door, he goes in the
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: bats up and lightly slits his list riss, So he's bleed. Now,
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: that's a pretty dramatic gesture, totally non fatal. And if
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: you look at the timing and urned it of it
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: to look at this like he knew when she was coming,
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: she was scheduled to be there to give the time,
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: and he stages this whole thing. So she's gonna walk
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: in and find this, you know.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so and Larry, let me, actually, I have the
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: perfect little segment, a little screenshot from this exact event,
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: the detailed saga of the inter agency Russian dialogue. Wait,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: this might not be it.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: When Chirakova knocked, sorry and knocked on the door at
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: the scheduled time on the twenty first, she got no response,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: and ultimately Oswalt was found in the bathtub with blood
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: in the water and superficial cuts on his left wrist.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: Instead of a train trip out, he was to spend
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: time in a hospital and be given a routine psychiatric interview.
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: The risk cutting appears to have been a dramatic gesture
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: on Oswalt's part in response to the total lack of
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: interest in him on the part of the Soviets. It
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: can be judged as a non serious attempt at actual
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: de lifing since he was cut. Since he cut his
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: wrist lightly only moments before the schedule time of Shirakova's arrival,
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: Oswald's action quickly turned him into a public relations problem
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: for Russian officialom An Americans so enthralled with the Soviet
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: system he wanted to abandon the United States to join it,
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: only to be rejected and so distraught he had to
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: be hospitalized. It was not a good quote look for
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: the Soviet leadership and the Russian public relations.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 4: So that's a little different than written out a pistol
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 4: in a foreign country, in a Russian embassy.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: Well, if you think about it, though, what he did
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: in Russia is essentially kind of throw himself onto the system,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: you know, make the Russians responsible for what they were
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: going to do. Ernest pulled a lot of the internal
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: Russian documentation at the highest levels. They considered this to
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: be a major public relations issue. I mean, at the
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: pro you know that this was. Now think what would
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: have happened. Oswald's seen this happen, right, he made it
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: play and he made it work for himself in Russia.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: What would have happened if he had gone into the
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: Soviet embassy in Mexico City and thrown himself on their
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: mercy and they bought it. Okay, here we have an
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: American system being persecuted by the Americans. You know, he's
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: being persecuted simply because he was our country. They're harassing.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: This could have been a great pr story. The embassy
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: personnel didn't play it that way. They didn't contact headquarters.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: They contacted headquarters, but just to find out if Marina
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: had something in process, which she did, but they didn't bite.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: So I guess Rob, I agree with you. It's it's different,
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: but it's I don't see it as inconsistent, and it
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: had worked for him once. Uh, this is I consider
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: in Mexico City, it's kind of be a hail Mary
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: for Oswalt, like, can I convince the Cubans or Russians
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: to let me go to you know, get you know,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: treat me special, let me go to Cuba, whatever I'll
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: send for Marina. I see it as a hail mary
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: because nothing else is working at that point in time.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: So an escalation, but it's not totally inconsistent if you
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: want to look at it that way, not the same level.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: But in New Orleans, what does he do. He sets
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: up this big street demonstration. He's already teased the anti
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: castro Cubans. He demonstrates only a few blocks away from
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: where he's been, you know, trying to fake them out
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: and pretend he was something else. And so when bring
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: Gear shows up, he immediately asked bring Gear to hit him, like, okay,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: more drama, and this is on TV. This is great.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: So I don't know. I'm all I can say is
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: I don't find it extremely inconsistent for Oswalt because he
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: can do that sort of thing. And I think the
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: way it plays is with his with his letter to
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: the Soviets after the fact, you know, saying you know,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: I've been harassed. They're trying that part seems to be consistent.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And Larry, So this is one of the
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: questions I had in my book when reading. I'm only
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: like two thirds the way they're to be honest, But
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: you know, Oswalt expected in Russia to be a big deal.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: The Soviets, unlike other defectors, did not use Oswalt as propaganda. Also,
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: when he got back from the Soviet Union, he was
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: also ignored. Right, he was expecting media to show up
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: in New York City and then in Dallas and it
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: Why did no one including Russia, including the United States,
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: which we know based on Oswalt's writings when he came back,
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: were very anti Soviet right the system. The Americans didn't
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: use that as propaganda, nor did the Soviets use him
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: as propaganda like they did with other defectors.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: Why the Soviets are a little bit easier to understand.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: First of all, there's a profile for who the Soviets used.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: The profile that they used. If you had actually truly
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: defected to the Soviet Union and said, you know, you
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 2: gave up your citizenship and you brought them information that
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: was useful. And I give some examples in the book.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: For example, over a period of time, there had been
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: people working for the NSA in foreign countries that realized
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: that the US was tapping and collecting information on those
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: countries and felt that that was very wrong, and went
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: to Russia and proclaimed that to the world with some
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: very specific incidents. That makes good propaganda. They put them
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: on TV, they put them, you know, and made big
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: deals about that when they had something executable to say,
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: you know, they had actual details that they could cite
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: in the new story that would make the US look
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: bad in front of another country, Egypt, Britain, especially in Europe.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: You know, the NSA people, American intelligence.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: Not have done that with Oswald and the just being
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: out Atsugi. Could they not spun nine? He didn't.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: There's nothing that he really had. What you needed is
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: a story that made the Americans look bad in front
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: of another country. This is foreign propaganda. It's not propaganda
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: against the US, it's foreign propaganda. Oswald did nothing in
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: Japan of special significance it's interesting and that they could
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: have used. There's nothing that he did that would have
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: embarrassed the US in Japan. Jack actually makes a point
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: in his book, and this is something that Oswald either
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: did not know or did not offer whatever, that there
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: was a team of Marines stationed at Sugi to do
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: atomic weapons work, and they worked on weapons on the
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: ships and it was in a highly compartmentalized area. That
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 2: would have been great. That's the sort of thing that
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: sure would have loved to have. Oswell didn't give it
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: to him or didn't know about it, whatever. But other
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: than that, there's nothing else really that he had that
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: would have any you know, would have been news or
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: nothing that would have embarrassed the US to Japan, because
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: that's the real that's the real propaganda. When Oswell came
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: back to the US, the problem was Oswell had spoken
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: out against the US when he entered Russia, okay, you know,
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: and he had not really said anything, had not been
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: covered in the paper since. So when he comes back,
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: you know, all we have is a he's not a big,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: a big story. By the time he gets back to
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: Dallas for Worth and starts writing and expressing this dissatisfaction
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: in his in his manuscript and his his monographs about
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: the Russian system. It's it's own. There's nobody, there's nobody
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: there to check him out. However, interestingly enough, so he's
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 2: not a media deal, I guess, is what I'm saying.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: If he had been gone to the radio and TV
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 2: and said I want to speak out against Russia, you know,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: and the communist system, but he didn't. He didn't do that.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: He actually just started writing.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: The interesting we have two sets of statements like one
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: pro Russia, one negative Russia in returning I'm.
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm sorry.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: In his writing. Yeah, he didn't reach it. He did
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: he was expecting the media to come to him, which actually,
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: interestingly enough, we David found in the Dallas Police archives
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: a couple of letters where the local media wrote to
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: Oswald very sympathetically. Now we think it was maybe a trick,
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: but they're writing to Osweald praising him for his open
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: mindedness and his you know, sense of well, I want
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: to go look and see for myself, you know, mister Oswell.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: We want to praise, you know, praise that. We think
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: that's commendable. He didn't get back to them for whatever reason.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: But so he didn't even respond to that. But in
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: all honesty, at that point in time, he was just
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: desperate to find a job. I mean, so Oswald's first
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: three or four months back in the US are they
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: bounce around. He's got to find a place to live.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: He's got to find the job. You know, he's got
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: a young child. He's trying to satisfy Marina. Marina keeps
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: Marina keeps spending him off, being more attracted to the
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: Russians who are trying to give her things in the
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: aff for Lee, who is not delivering anything. You know,
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: it was a very it was a very complex and
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: chaotic time for Lee. But I thought it was interesting
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: in that there were local media people who actually tried
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: to do what you're talking about, Joe. It kind of
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: prompt him to speak out, and at that point, for
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, he didn't respond. Later on, when in New
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: Orleans when he went to address the Jesuit College, he
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: did speak out, but that was much later.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and kind of consistent with the with after he
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: got the job at the TSBD and he got the
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: call back for the job, what was at the airport
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: as a moving luggage and they called Ruth Payne, and
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: I think this is a big topic on the ED
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: firm these days. Yes, he didn't really respond, and it's
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: not that Ruth didn't tell him or not, and I'm
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: not sure about that, but it's just consistent with Oswald's character.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: He didn't follow up on things. He didn't follow up
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: on the Albert Schweizer college application. That's the last time
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: they heard from him.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: He just follows up on what he's interested in at
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: the time. You know, if it's not on his radar,
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: it's very personal. And he did there's an interesting remark,
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: I think because this offer is a baggage handler. I
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: mean two things. Right off, Osweald got a job at
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: the school book depository. We don't really know what Oswell
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: thought that consisted of. He did make a remark to
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: Ruth and Marina one I forget It's like it would
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: be kind of interesting to work around books. You know,
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 2: this is an Oswell thing. But the job at the
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: airport was manual labor, and that's all he had had
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: for almost two years, and he was really fed up
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: with manual labor. So did he choose just I'm not
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 2: going to respond. I've already got a manual labor job.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 2: I don't need another manual labor job. We do know
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: that he continued to look for work while he was
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: at the TSPD. Later on, he did go on at
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: least one more employment interview for a non annual labor job.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that has to be noted
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: in terms of his character is he continually when he
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: would go to the unemployment office when he would be tested,
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: he would be tested and rated very well on appearance, manner, speaking, ability,
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: written test and they kept writing down that he was
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 2: he was being employed way below his level, that he
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 2: could even be considered for a management level job or
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: a staff level position. But he would tell them I
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: have to have a job tomorrow because I need money,
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: and they always had to immediately fast track place them
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: with whatever they had available in manually.
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: Didn't you feel bad too that they couldn't They.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: Felt back and they did feel bad about it. And
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: I think one of the things that, you know, this
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: whole world might have changed if he actually was being
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: accepted for a job after his arrival back in Dallas
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: at another photography company. And this shocked me. It's actually
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: in the warrant commission they interviewed him and they were
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 2: going to hire him, but just by raw chance, they
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: did a background check and they called Jaggerstovell and talked
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: to a manager there, and the manager said, now he's okay,
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 2: you know, but he just made the remark that occasionally
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: he made fellow workers nervous because he would speak Russian,
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: and like in nineteen sixty three Dallas, Texas, that's a
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: kiss of doom. And so he doesn't get the job. Well,
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 2: what if he'd actually got another photographics studio job, you know,
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: when he went to Mexico, he listed his profession as
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: photography and Oswell. One thing that David and I found
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: when we started looking in the Dallas police archives when
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: they started going through his personal belongings, Oswell was a
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: photographic freak. He took photographs of everything, everywhere, all the time.
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: It's so bad that when it starts out in the
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 2: series of evidence photos, they're showing, you know, two or
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: three photos close up. Then a little bit later they're
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: showing twenty photos spread out on a desk, and then
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: later they're just showing a photo album like open. Like
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 2: the police got tired, Like, okay, he had a lot
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: of photos. We did it, okay, But he was a
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: pack rap. It is amazing to me. He carried receipts
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: and letters and correspondents around and you know there's a
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: big paper trail that somebody you know, But there was
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 2: nothing incriminating in any of it. It's just you know,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: does he have his receipts? Yeah, has his receipts. Oza
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: was obsessive in that fashion. He has receipts and photos.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: You keep wondering like, okay, did you you pack all
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: this stuff? But I guess you never knew, or he
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: never knew when he was gonna need it for job
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: applications or whatever. He carried a lot of it to
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: Mexico City. A list of stuff that he carried to
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: Mexico City to show the Key Hubans to prove his
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: resume as being a Cuban activist, you know. So he
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: had that. He just went back and okay, let me
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: sort it out and I'll take a long this stuff
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: to prove my case.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 4: Wow. So let's talk a little bit more about that
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 4: day in Dallas, Larry. You know, it starts off with
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 4: of course, Lee leaving Marina allegedly wished some money in
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 4: a wedding ring right or as wallet or whatever it is.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 4: They say, talk to us a little bit about oswald
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 4: behavior that day. When it comes to, uh, you know
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 4: why he wasn't outside watching graid maybe?
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: Why Why is it so strange? Why is it anomaloust?
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: What is going on here? Yeah?
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 4: It is?
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: And I want to be clear for anybody looking at this.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: David and I try to do this up to now.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: This book Oswald Puzzle is two books. About two third
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: of it is a biography. Okay, about a third of
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: it from this point on is speculation. It's a scenario
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: that we think is right. I'm not going to assert
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: that I can prove it. It's just a scenario about
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: what we It's our assessment. So I don't want to
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 2: oversell it.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 4: But well, you're in the right place, because we love
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 4: speculation here.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: What I think was happening with Oswald? What we think
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: happened that week. Oswald had been in contact with some
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 2: of these same people for months that were originally gotten
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: into contact with the New Orleans We'll call them the
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: mystery Cubans from Miami. Okay, when they got to Sylvia, Odios,
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: they were the mystery Cubans from New Orleans. Because they
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: just come from New Orleans, but originally they'd come from Miami. Okay,
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: So these guys had been in contact with Oswell for
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: three months before this time, doing things like visiting Robert McCowan,
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: a noted Cuban arms salesperson, trying to buy You got
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: to gotta think about this. They're trying they try to
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 2: buy a large number of rifles for a revolution in
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: Central America. Now, think about what that really says to
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswell, this guy, what it was, this guy
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: who's with you and you're going along with Is the
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: United States set to do major revolutions in Central No,
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: we're trying to stop that.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 4: We don't.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: We don't like the revelation it's Castro that's trying to
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 2: do that. So we think that's a piece of evidence
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 2: that someone is managing Oswell to make him think that
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: these particular Cubans are pro Castro and that he he
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: is being quiet and silently demonstrating his commitment to the
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: revolution and the fact that he's willing to go along
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: and do things to support the revolution. He wants to
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: You mentioned it, Joe. There's every evidence that he wants
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: to go to Cuba and be there in a bigger
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: fashion than he did to Russia. He wants to be accepted,
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: he wants to be respected, he wants to be part
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: of the revolution, you know, he wants to be not
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: treated like he was in Russia. Just just get actory
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: assignment or something like that out in the sugar cane field.
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: So you know, then we go on to Sylvia Odio,
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: uh and where we're talking about he's being set up
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 2: by these guys not you know, it's it's like a
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: legend is being created for Leo Harvey Oswald. I can't
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: say that at first. What we speculate is that it
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: may have been operating at two levels. One is to
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: generate a propaganda legend that could be used in an
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: actual sanctioned propaganda campaign to illustrate how easily a naive,
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: intelligent American veteran could be recruited. You know, this is
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: great propaganda work. However, underneath that and overlaid on it
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: at some point in time, and you see it at Sylvia,
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: Odios when the call back to Sylvia is not with
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 2: Oswell present, okay, talking about Oswald as the shooter. That's
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: we think whatever happened is happening at two levels, and
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: Oswald is being stolen for the conspiracy, or at least
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: considered for the conspiracy, because by that time Dallas is
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: in play as a place to attack the president. And
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: how do we know that Lee ALV. Harvey Oswell would
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 2: be in Dallas? Lee Harvey Oswell has a baby that's
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 2: going to be born within two three months, He's going
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: to be in Dallas. That's quite clear. You don't have
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 2: to you don't have to work to put him there.
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 2: Nature is going to take its course. So I think
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: what happened is, over a period of time, he was
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: conditioned by these people. He began to trust them because
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 2: they were telling him things he wanted to hear. They
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: were giving him an opportunity that he wanted. I've said
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: in other venues the easiest way to run a con
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: is to run a con against a mark that wants
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 2: what you want. That's the way this works best is
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 2: you don't want to do something different than what they
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: normally do. You don't want to give them you know
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 2: they already want to, You know that they want to
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 2: do something, and you just build your con around them.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: In this case, I build a manipulation around what Ozwa
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: wanted to do, which was to go to Cuba and
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 2: join the Cuban regime and hopefully it works out better
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 2: than the Russian thing did. Okay, we know from Marina
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 2: that he had been talking about that in New Orleans.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: He was even talking in New Orleans that he was
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: so desperate to do it, maybe he should hijack an
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 2: airplane and by the Marina, if I get a pistol,
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: you know, will you help me? And Marina said, you're
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: an idiot. No, of course I want help you, you jerk. Yeah,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 2: but if you manage to get there and send for me,
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: I might come. Okay, fine, So I think to answer
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: your question, rob By that week in Dallas, he's he's
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: torn two directions. He's got this people offering him an
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: option about Cuba. He's got a new baby and a
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: family there that he would like, you know, like to
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 2: get back together. He's torn, and he goes to visit Marina.
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: And what happens Marina says, look, Lee, you know, and
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 2: he goes on a Thursday, right, and that's different. That
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 2: is anomalist. And Marina essentially pushes back, and she makes
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: it clear that she did push back and say, look,
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: you know, you still don't have an apartment. You get
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 2: an apartment, You get a washing machine. I got a
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: brand new baby. I got diapers, right, Okay, we do
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: not have pampers in nineteen sixty three. We got lots
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: of diapers. We've got two little kids. You get me
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: an apartment, you get a washing machine. We'll talk, you know.
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: And so also, it's got to make a choice. People
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 2: have told him that the next day they've got it
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: set up so that he can fly out of Dallas
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: and go to Cuba. And Marina, who knows if she
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: had just said, okay, I'll move in with you tomorrow,
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: what would have happened. We don't know. Here's speculation, but
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 2: it looks like he had to make a choice, and
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 2: it looks like he made the choice of taking the
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: Cuban option. We know all of this is supported by
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: the Ray January Redbird Airport story. Earlier that week, a
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 2: young couple had come in and tried to lease an
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: aircraft or rent an aircraft for a long distance flight.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: They were talking about the Yucatan. I don't know who
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 2: flies to the Yukaton from Dallas, but Ray January was
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 2: a little suspicious, he said, after they asked so many
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 2: questions about the fuel capacity and how far it I
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: thought they were planning to hijack the darn plane to Cuba. Well,
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: then he saw someone waiting in the car, not listening
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: directly watching the conversation, not hearing it, that he later
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 2: after the assassination felt was Lee Harvey Oswald. And we
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: think that was part of a con game against Oswald,
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 2: to convince them that they had this thing set up,
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 2: and to convince them that they were going to fly
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: him out of Dallas. Did they ever intend to take
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 2: him to the airport, I doubt it. They intended to
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: kill him in the process and plant information on him,
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 2: tying him very closely to the tel Castro. One of
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 2: the reasons we think that is that the night of
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 2: the assassination, these same people exactly the same people by
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: name give the names in the book called Claire booth Loose,
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 2: whose husband ran the Time Life media network and in
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 2: a heartbeat, could do any story he wanted to do,
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: called her and told her that they had had le
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 2: Ar V. Oswald under surveillance for months. They had monitored
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: him traveling to Mexico City, and they were prepared to
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: offer information that he had come back to Dallas with
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 2: a Cuban assassination team which he just killed the president.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 2: If that story he had gotten into Life magazine the
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: next week, it would have been awful hard to avoid
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 2: a war with Cuba and possibly Russia.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 4: So in this scenario, are we thinking because Oswald would
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 4: have to be really, really naive to think that if
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 4: he killed Kennedy, if it was him up there on
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 4: the sixth floor taking these shots, that he would somehow
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 4: get this magical ticket to Cuba and be welcome with
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 4: open arms by Castro as the guy who killed Kennedy.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, oh, yeah, that's insane. He's smarter than that.
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with JFK. It can't have
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: anything that other JFK, other than again speculative. If I
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: were telling him this story, I would say, it's great
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: that we do it today, because all the attention will
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: be on the president and nobody will care about this
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: little airplane flying out of Redbird Airfield and will be
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: gone and done, you know, before the President is even
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 2: out of town. Right, It can't have any Oswald is
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: not stupid. He can't think that he's going to kill
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 2: JFK and get a ticket to Cuba and arrive, you know,
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 2: shortly before the nuclear weapons.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 4: Do yeah, because I always think, you know, the rifle
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 4: was of course ordered in the name of Ajhidel, right,
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 4: and that's the weapon that's found in the depository. That's
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 4: the name that's attached to the Fair Play for Cuba
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 4: committee in New Orleans. And it could always, if they
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 4: did enough digging, tied back to Lee Oswald. And maybe
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 4: he thought that they couldn't tie it back to him.
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 4: But of course his po box gives it away, you know.
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 4: But maybe he thought that, you know, it couldn't be
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 4: tied back to him, but he would know about the rifle.
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: He doesn't know about anything that all he knows is
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: he's going to fly out to Cuba. He doesn't. I'm
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: glad you pointed out, because we've argued about all of
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: this forever. And the point is, if a rifle traceable
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: to Lee Harvey Oswald without his knowledge, is recovered from
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 2: the Texas school Book depository, two things I don't care.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: If Lee Harvey Oswell had actually been standing out in
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: front and been photographed, Oswell would be connected to the assassination.
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: And if Oswell said, oh well, I just lent this rifle.
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 2: To my buddies, he's still part of a conspiracy. You
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: know that the rifle does the deal. The rifle traceable
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: to him and to Highdell and to Hydell, who is
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: as a resume as a Cuban activist, right seals the deal.
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: That's all you really need is to have that rifle recovered,
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 2: maybe some amo recovered, and you're done. It's over. He's
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: never going to get out of that. Nobody's ever going
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: to buy it, which which is the argument to me,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: of course, is yes, he did buy that rifle, and
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 2: is he traceable to that rifle? Because you don't do
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 2: this and make up this whole rifle story after the fact.
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 4: You need to have it.
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 2: You know, it needs to be real, because that's all
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 2: you got.
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Larry, what do you think was Lee's expectation if
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: and when he got to Cuba. It's not going to
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: be like Russia. It's not going to get some uh
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 1: you know, Kushia apartment and how all these Cuban girls
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: throwing them.
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 2: Actually he would that there had been a series of
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: aircraft hijackings, and I actually write about that in the
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 2: book of Activists Who'd hijack Commercial airliners even and gone
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 2: to Cuba, and they got great receptions. They were treated
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: as regime heroes because they would all step out of
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 2: the plane and take the opportunities because you can't. It's
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 2: not like arriving in Russia by train right and meeting
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: your tourist guide. This you're landing at the airport. You know,
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: you demonstrated your total commitment to the Cuban revolution. You're
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 2: prepared to talk about quite frankly, you're prepared to talk
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 2: about what's bad about America and what's bad about Russia.
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 2: And in nineteen sixty three, Fidel Castro was more than
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 2: happy for you to talk about what's bad about Russia,
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: because Fidel Castro is talking to JFK just about the
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 2: fact of kicking the Russians out and becoming neutral in
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: this new dialogue that starts on November twenty second. So yeah, Oswald,
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 2: who knows what he would build, who knows what they
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 2: told him, who knows what they promised him. Remember, these
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: are Cubans who are portraying themselves as Cuban intelligence assets,
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 2: Cuban supporters, recruiting an American, an ex veteran, you know,
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 2: with some history and a street activist, you know, to
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 2: joining the revolution.
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: I like him double defector. I mean those are not common.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 2: So and Oswald as well. Again, I don't think he
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think he expected to rive there alive. Okay,
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: that's my speculation. It's better to have him framed and
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 2: dad with even more. But in his own mind, Oswell
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 2: has been leafleting, he's been speaking, he's been on radio,
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 2: he's been on TV. He does have a resume of
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 2: endorsing the revolution. He's very informed about the revolution. He's
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 2: been reading The Militant, he's been reading the you know, all.
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: The publication since fifty nine with Delgado I think, or
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: fifty eight here.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 2: But he's up on his story. I mean, I guess
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: that's what my point is. He would be quite well
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 2: spoken upon arrival. Why the Cuban in his own mind,
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: why he could present he just to sell this story
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 2: to the Cubans of Mexico City, and they said, you know,
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 2: we've got to we've got to follow the rules. Now,
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 2: if he's on, if he thinks if I can get
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 2: on Cuban TV and give him the same story, it'll
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 2: be great. As a matter of fact, he's even said
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 2: he said in something he wrote that, or actually I
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 2: think he told Marina it didn't work in Mexico City
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 2: because they're a bunch of bureaucrats. And that's when he
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 2: got in the fight with ask you and the consulate.
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like you people are just you won't
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: listen to my commitment. You won't listen to me. You're
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: not you're abandoning your revolution and people who want to
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 2: support you and ask you what's going. It's paperwork, guy,
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, and I think an interesting thing
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: which we do not know.
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 4: We know that.
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 2: Sylvia Durant later years later, stated that his visa had
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: been approved, his tourist visa to go to Cuba had
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: actually been a prof move, and when she was asked
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 2: whether or not, like, well, did you get back to
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 2: him after the fact, because you took his name telephone number,
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 2: did you get back and inform of about that, she
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 2: wouldn't say we don't know that. She didn't actually get
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: back and say, oh, by the way, Lee, you know,
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 2: your your visa is ready whenever you want to pick
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: it up. We're good inside Cuba. This so ob that
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 2: wouldn't let you in has you know, got kicked out
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 2: and and we're good because she kind of liked Oswald,
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 2: you know, and.
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 4: Her stuff still under lock and key with the Agaca.
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 2: No, it's not. The problem is and this is where
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: I drove myself nuts. It's not that anything is withheld.
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: It's such they did a poor job of questioning her.
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: In fact, that a lot of the a lot of
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: the stuff. It's it's like questioning the terrasofs. The interpreters.
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 2: They asked some good questions, but they didn't ask a sequence,
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 2: structured series of questions from point A to point b.
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 2: You know, their gaps kind of like that gap. So
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 2: it's not that it's being withheld the question. The right
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 2: questions were not asked, but we to some extent the
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 2: questions we know enough to ask. Now they didn't know
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 2: to ask. Then, Lord only knows if we could get
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 2: the Pterosovs and her back, and you know, even in
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, nineteen sixty five, we could have resolved
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: everything about Mexico City. But you know that's just not
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 2: what happened.
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 7: Yeah, anything else, buddy, Well, no, I mean.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: We so I'm like sixty percent, maybe close to two
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: thirds through the book, and we didn't touch on a
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: lot of the dri stuff and Oswald and the Cubans
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 1: and Miami, New Orleans. But what do you think of
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 1: keeping making David on the hook for that?
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, as that's what David found. I mean the
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 2: key part to the whole last third of the book
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 2: and being able to draw a particular set of individuals
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 2: in and timeline it who knew what when to make
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 2: what I just described happen and now we know the
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 2: real names and people. It's not that we're just talking
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 2: about a high level scenario. I mean John Martino said, Oh,
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 2: the thing blew apart when Oswall was arrested and the
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 2: rest of the plot didn't happen. Yeah, okay, we that
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: would be a high level No, he didn't get to
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 2: the airplane. He didn't get you know, he got arrested instead.
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 2: Now with what David found, the fact that David found
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 2: that when Lee Harvey Oswell was in court after being
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 2: arrested in jail for a day over the public annoyance
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 2: you know claim uh that of the guys in the
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 2: courtroom with them, the Cubans were. One of them was
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 2: the brother of a senior propaganda political actions officer at
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 2: jam Wave.
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 1: In my.
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 2: Immediately in this case. And the other guy is Sylvia
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 2: Odio's uncle. Okay, Sylvia Odio guitar is Sylvia Odio's uncle,
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 2: who talks to Sylvia, They corresponds Sylvia. Even Odio admitted
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: later on that that they had talked about Oswald, you know, afterwards,
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 2: and she was asked, did you talk about before? And
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 2: she kind of duck that question. But everybody gossiped. Everybody
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: was gossiping about Oswald. You know, he's on radios and team.
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 2: If you're if you're an anti Castro person, this American
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 2: that suddenly coming out of nowhere supporting Fidel is, you know,
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: what's what are we? What are we going to talk about? Yes?
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 2: And I think the other thing is David keeps talking
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 2: about another individual named Frank Bartes, who was in the
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 2: room at the same time. It was interviewed later by
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 2: the FBI and and asked if he'd ever heard of
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: Oswell and Bartes says, oh, no, never heard of Oswell.
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 2: It's like he was in the court room when Oswa
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 2: was being arraigned. He lied these people. So David is
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 2: a great person. That's how this story really got flesh
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: on the bones of how this scenario could have happened
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 2: starting in Miami. Who was there from Miami at the
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 2: right time, who could have contacted Oswell tied into you know,
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: a fellow named Hernandez is the guy that McCowan remembers
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 2: visiting with Oswald, Wich Hernandez, Carlos. We can put names
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 2: to these people. Now we know Carlos was involved with
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 2: gun running with McCowan, so we would have recognized him,
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, David is the person to talk about,
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 2: you know, how how do we tie Miami to New
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 2: Orleans and bring in this this group of Dre. It's
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: kind of like Dre slash CIA associated Cubans because Dre
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 2: was existed and was being paid, you know, by the
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 2: CIA to do anti Castro propaganda. And the fact that
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 2: Morleyan talking to them said, I was amazed by this
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 2: that they were going, Oh yeah. By August nineteen sixty three,
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 2: we already had a propaganda campaign underway with Oswald. It's like,
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 2: this is the Oswald that nobody even knows. In November
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 2: and you guys are already doing propaganda with him and
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 2: writing Congress persons and telling all the other exile groups
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 2: about him.
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 1: Everybody's first on the horn after the assassination.
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, uh yeah, and and and hol HENDRICKX.
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 2: You know, Hal Hendrix is the first one to start
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 2: after the assassination. If you call Scripts Howard, you get
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: referred to Hal Hendrix, who is a longtime David Phillips
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 2: propaganda asset living in. My suspicion is that he was
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 2: working on this whole propaganda campaign that was one of
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 2: three different operations that were going on within the CI
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 2: around Oswell that Oswall was entirely clueless about.
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 4: That's why.
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 2: That's why David and I used the word entangled. It's
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 2: just like, I'm not saying but he would had been.
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 2: He had crossed so many lines and come to the
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 2: attention of so many people. You go, well, you know,
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 2: he got his head, he got in over his head.
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 1: What it comes down to, I'm sorry, whatever spy he
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: thought he was in his head, he really just kind
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 1: of bumped up against the wrong people and I think
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 1: they got him in.
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 4: Uh, but he's taking it out at the end, Joe
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 4: when he said I'm just a patsy.
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 2: I think he was beginning to figure it out that weekend. Yeah,
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 2: I do, I think I do think at the time
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 2: it was just dawning on him. I'm not even sure
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 2: it was only beginning to get to him how much
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 2: trouble he was in by that just before he was killed.
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 2: It was because he had no idea. He had no
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 2: idea about the rifle. He had no idea about it.
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 2: It's it's just you look at the dialogue that we
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 2: put in that he's talking to his brother, his wife.
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like, I'm okay, you know, well, Rob,
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 2: you you can listen, you can play the interviews with
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 2: the you know, media in the hallway and that sort
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 2: of stuff. And this guy is just kind of like
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 2: le Oswell, can't disassemble that much. It's like, I don't
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 2: even know while they're arresting me. Oh well, they're arresting
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 2: me because the only thing I can think of is
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 2: I was in Russia and they're just picking up a Russian,
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 4: And you can see his emotions. You can see he's
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 4: pissed off. You can see when he's at the midnight
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 4: press conference, when he's like when it seems like he
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 4: has that light bulb moment you know, where he's like
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 4: I'm screwed. Yeah, you can see his emotions, you know,
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 4: it's frustrations. It's pissed, you know, he's pissed off. He's
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 4: but everything he says is like, I don't know why
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 4: I'm here. I haven't done anything. I haven't shot anybody.
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 4: You know, the police have you know, harassed me. And
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 4: it's because of the.
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 1: Moment.
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly what we didn't want to
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 2: put that in as a book title, but you know.
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 4: Maybe the next one, Yeah, but I'll have that. Yeah.
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: I cannot wait to read the last kind of third
• 2:14:20
  Speaker 1: of the book. I think I'm on chapter fifteen out
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: of twenty three or or seventeen sixteen, and you know,
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 1: I was thinking of like skipping a couple of chapters,
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 1: but it's just so good, honestly. So David's not getting
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: off the cz of course, we hope he feels better,
• 2:14:41
  Speaker 1: but maybe Rob and I will have him on and
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 1: talk about the last sort of the book, which kind
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 1: of focuses on the Cuban angle.
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 4: Paul Harvey says, the rest of.
• 2:14:53
  Speaker 2: The story, and he knows all those names, those names
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 2: much better than I do. When we do interviews together,
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 2: it's kind of like, Okay, David, it's your turn. Who
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 2: was that person? Like, Okay, one of fifty different Cubans
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 2: or JM Wave officers. You're he's in charge of remembering
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 2: those names, you know, that's his thanks, So yeah, absolutely,
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 2: I'm all for that.
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 4: There you go. Well, thank you so much Larry for
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 4: joining us tonight, and folks, again, the link is in
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 4: the description if you want to check out the book,
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 4: The os Walt Puzzle, Highly recommended. We love it, and
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 4: thank you Larry for the advanced copies. We appreciate it
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 4: and excellent, excellent work, my friend. And it's always a
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 4: pleasure to have you on the show.
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 2: And it's great to be back with you guys. Have
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 2: a good weekend.
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 4: Yes, Larry, thank you so much for out with us
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 4: and talking about your book. Yeah.
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 1: I think this book will end up on the Mount
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 1: Rushmore of dab K books. And I'm not just saying
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 1: that because you're on here, but you know, we've been
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 1: talking about this with our audience and kind of giving
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 1: us slow kind of you know, giving talking about Oswalt
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 1: in a different way for the past year since we talked.
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 1: We met at Lancer twenty three, and our audience is
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 1: really in tune with I think with the tone of
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 1: the book, and I definitely suggest everyone who is listening
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 1: to order it and follow the link in the description.
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 4: Is now Jim Dugenio can officially review it.
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 2: That's fun. And by the way, thanks to all your viewers.
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: I've been looking at the comments on the side and
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 2: I appreciate those.
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 4: I really do.
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 2: Thanks everybody, and I'm happy with it. It's kind of
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 2: like I do consider that it's a book I needed
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 2: to do because, as we said before earlier, I like it,
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 2: it needed to be done. I needed to go back
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 2: to it, and I don't think I could have done
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 2: back to it earlier. It's like I don't think I
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 2: could have written this book before I did. We just
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 2: really haven't. I won't say not all the information was there,
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 2: but I know it can be there, but if your
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 2: focus isn't right, then you'll miss it, which is what
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 2: I was doing before. So okay, Well, people have.
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 4: Tried to write this book before, and I won't say
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 4: they failed miserably, but I think it's it's also a
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 4: matter of you know, having all the information, Like you
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 4: just said, I mean, there's so much that comes out
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 4: year after your year after year after year. You know
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 4: you can go all the way back to you know
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 4: the mid sixties they were trying to figure out, you know, Oswald.
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 4: But I think you finally did it right and you
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 4: did a good service for the research community. So thank
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 4: you very much, Arry Handkoin. Yes again, see you all right,
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 4: all right, we'll see you, Larry.
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 1: Have a great night. Thanks so much.
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 4: Yes, sir, Hey, Joe, do you know And just like that,
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 4: he's gone. Now we we we appreciate Larry. Apparently Joe
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 4: I didn't because I didn't pick my phone up. He
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 4: was having trouble getting in. Oh okay, it wasn't that
• 2:18:18
  Speaker 4: he was late or taking a nap.
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 4: It says it's not letting me in.
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 4: And then another message says it says it cannot pair
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 4: stream after it started. I don't know what was going on,
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 4: but I'm glad he finally got in. Yeah.
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 1: Well, we did a good job bullshitting for half an hour.
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 4: We flubbed our way through it a little bit. Yeah,
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 4: I think we did okay, because we were not prepared
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 4: for that whatsoever. Folks. So for the first half hour
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 4: of this show, it's been a bit of a week.
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 4: It's been a bit of a day for your boy,
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 4: for sure. And then to have you know, David Cancel
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 4: and then and then Larry couldn't get in. We were
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 4: oh man, we were freaking out. But I'm glad Larry
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 4: was able to come and he and of course he
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 4: hit another home run on the lonengom And podcast because
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 4: that's what he does. He's the goat. And I mean, man,
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 4: go buy the book. Go buy the book. You won't
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 4: regret it. It is full of good goodness.
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean you can't be serious about
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 1: researching the assassination if you don't read this book. In
• 2:19:34
  Speaker 1: my opinion, I think it's it's going to end up.
• 2:19:39
  Speaker 1: Like I said on the Mount.
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 4: Rushmore, It's changed my mind on a lot of things
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 4: when it comes to thinking about Oswald and why he
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 4: did some of the things that he did or or
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 4: why he didn't do some of the things that he
• 2:19:56
  Speaker 4: was accused of doing. And you know, when you super
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 4: micro analyzed someone's personality and life and movements and moments
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 4: and thoughts and writing, and this is what you are
• 2:20:12
  Speaker 4: left with. And I can honestly say that this book
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 4: makes a lot of sense. And like I said, I
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 4: wasn't lying when I said this book has been tried
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 4: to be written before Okay, I mean, look at Norman
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 4: Mailer Oswalt's game. You know, this book has tried to
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 4: be written before, and of course that's a learned another example.
• 2:20:33
  Speaker 4: But there's been many conspiracy books that have tried to
• 2:20:36
  Speaker 4: figure this guy out. Yeah, and they have fell on
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 4: their face poorly until David Boyling and Larry Hancott came along.
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to analyze Oswalt without your biases, right,
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 1: And we've talked about this, like you could have Oswalt
• 2:20:55
  Speaker 1: as some witting spy defector or some double agent posing
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 1: as a communist, but you really have to take everything.
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 4: I always thought, you know, that his defection had to
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 4: be some kind of CIA thing, right, I've thought that
• 2:21:14
  Speaker 4: for many, many years too, But I think Larry changed
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 4: my mind with him laying out why Oswald would have
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 4: done that, you know what I'm saying, Like it makes
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 4: sense that it was a spur of the moment thing,
• 2:21:32
  Speaker 4: and he had every intention of possibly going to Albert
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 4: Twitcher College. He's done the application, he paid for his
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 4: first semester, and that maybe along the way somebody got
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 4: in his ear about you know, ratline through Finland that
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 4: he could get into Russia and he took the opportunity
• 2:21:49
  Speaker 4: and did it. Now, are there some weird things about
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 4: you know, like where he was staying in Finland and
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 4: how he got through? Yeah, yeah, I mean sure there's
• 2:22:00
  Speaker 4: some anomalies there, but it doesn't take any more than
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 4: somebody in his ear in one of the countries that
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 4: he visited, or who was on the boat with him.
• 2:22:10
  Speaker 4: If you really want to go to Russia, I mean,
• 2:22:12
  Speaker 4: you can go right to hell sinky and go right in.
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 4: You don't have to go in on some weird pretext,
• 2:22:19
  Speaker 4: you know, or he may have not even thought it
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 4: was possible.
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: Actually, one of the points in the book Rob is
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 1: that the other way would have been through Berlin and
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 1: then through East Germany, and it would have gone through
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 1: like two or three checkpoints. And considering he wasn't allowed
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 1: to Oswald during his temporary discharge, wasn't allowed to go
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 1: away other than for school, which was an accepted thing
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 1: that you would take kind of the least route of
• 2:22:54
  Speaker 1: least resistance, right. I never thought of it that way either.
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: So it's a great book, and if you're serious about uh,
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 1: the truth about the assassination, I think this is probably
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 1: must must read material for sure.
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, So once again we thank Larry for showing up,
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 4: and hopefully we can get mister Boyling on in the
• 2:23:19
  Speaker 4: near future and talk about and really get into some
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 4: of this Cuban stuff and Miami stuff more in depth,
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 4: because that portion of the book Joe is fascinating, and
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 4: they named names, okay, and these are again serious operators,
• 2:23:40
  Speaker 4: and there is evidence of them being in Daily Plaza
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 4: and the fact that you know, they think that it
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 4: was Oswald and Sylvia Odios along with two Miami Cubans
• 2:23:53
  Speaker 4: is very interesting.
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, a ton to unpack, A ton.
• 2:23:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but if you're ever going to figure this thing out,
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 4: you gotta think outside of the box, and you got
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 4: to think differently than everybody else out there has ever
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 4: done before. And I must say they've done a great
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 4: job in this book. So, like I said, the Linco
• 2:24:14
  Speaker 4: is in the description, go get it. It's worth every
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 4: flipping penny, every flipper. You know, I didn't pay a
• 2:24:22
  Speaker 4: penny for it. It is worth every penny, trust me.
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 4: Because I had it on pre order and then all
• 2:24:31
  Speaker 4: of a sudden it shows up at my house one day,
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 4: I was like, well, hell, I can cancel my pre
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 4: order now.
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 1: But and I got an extra copy and I actually
• 2:24:41
  Speaker 1: had to send it to Bill Sippitch because he did
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 1: not get his.
• 2:24:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we were going to do a giveaway here on
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 4: the show in honor of the of the book release.
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 4: But uh yeah, Jim d Junior did not get his
• 2:24:53
  Speaker 4: copy apparently, so Joe had to send it out.
• 2:24:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah I'm kidding not Jim, but I'm sure he didn't
• 2:25:01
  Speaker 3: get a copy either. Yeah, we had Larry on Well.
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 4: You posted this shoe. Why are you having the money
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 4: talk about the book? It's not even out yet. I
• 2:25:13
  Speaker 4: can't review again on Kennedy and Kings.
• 2:25:17
  Speaker 1: Silly, fuck yourself, silly. And and as you could tell this,
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 1: this book is more than one show's worth, and on
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 1: the first show only got into the basis of.
• 2:25:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we were we were picking our way through it,
• 2:25:36
  Speaker 4: for sure. But it's full of meat. It's full of meat.
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to read that chicken bone.
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 4: It's not funny.
• 2:25:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, more meat left on that chicken bone than Bonnie
• 2:25:49
  Speaker 1: Ray Williams.
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 4: Well, much like Bonnie Ray, Joe tonight for dinner, your
• 2:25:53
  Speaker 4: boy had a little chicken.
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 1: The colonel.
• 2:25:58
  Speaker 4: Chicken on the bone.
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 1: I respect that I had a big old breast.
• 2:26:03
  Speaker 4: I had a chicken leg, a thigh and a wing.
• 2:26:09
  Speaker 4: Did you leave it was gravy and it was good.
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 1: Did you leave a wing?
• 2:26:16
  Speaker 4: I didn't leave any meat on the bone. I cleaned them,
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 4: cleaned them.
• 2:26:20
  Speaker 1: There you go, Bonnie Rays stories bullshit.
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 4: Hey, I love my chicks. What can I say? All right?
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 1: Definitely definitely art of that book, guys, I mean, seriously,
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 1: I can't endorse a book more than this.
• 2:26:39
  Speaker 4: Yes, and thanks thanks again to Larry Hancock for coming
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 4: on and gracing is with his presence. Always a pleasure.
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 4: We love Larry Death. Thank you, Trey, Thank you Trey,
• 2:26:50
  Speaker 4: and thank you folks for joining us hanging out. I mean,
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 4: at some point there's still sixty people watching right now.
• 2:26:57
  Speaker 4: We appreciate it eating every one of you for hanging
• 2:27:00
  Speaker 4: out with us. You enjoyed the show. Until next time,
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 4: check us out Wednesday night for the members only show,
• 2:27:08
  Speaker 4: The Secret Show, The Super Duper Secret Show. We got
• 2:27:13
  Speaker 4: a plan. We're gonna run around with you a little
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 4: bit for an upcoming show and see what you guys
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 4: think about it. It's crazy, it's gonna be nuts, but
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 4: we want to get your feedback, so we'll see you
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 4: on Wednesday. Until then, calling in the Dino. Where's he at?
• 2:27:36
  Speaker 3: Joe?
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 4: There he is, Thank.
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 2: Tray.
• 2:27:52
  Speaker 4: If you knew this man, you move this.
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 1: Sally be back next, Name of truth. The greatest crimes
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 1: are committed in the name of justice. The quotation is
• 2:28:05
  Speaker 1: Jim Garrison's.
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 2: It could be used far him in this strange case.
• 2:28:10
  Speaker 1: Good Night, and hi Roger. We've missed saying how to help.
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 7: Rogers in the house, Kenned
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 4: H Well, in the office, it's it's so sad with
• 2:28:36
  Speaker 4: no