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Privatize This! · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do? I am Your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: for Profit host Abraham and I Am Your Humans Don't
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  Speaker 1: have a Right to Water host Shane. We are a
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  Speaker 1: psychology podcast. We talk about all of the things that
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  Speaker 1: humans and non human animals do. We release two different
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  Speaker 1: we do a sort of thorough discussion of some particular
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  Speaker 1: topic that all human behavior or animal behavior in some capacity.
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  Speaker 1: And since that's pretty much everything that humans do, we
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  Speaker 1: have a wide range of topics that we can discuss,
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  Speaker 1: which is very exciting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Man, So if you're joining us for the first time, welcome.
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  Speaker 1: We're happy to have you here and we hope that
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  Speaker 1: you enjoy what you hear in this discussion today. And
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  Speaker 1: of this discussion. If you're a returning listener, then also
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  Speaker 1: And either way, whether you're new, whether you're old, whether
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  Speaker 1: you're young or old, whether you're Me or Shane. I
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  Speaker 1: like to wish you all a happy, great American grump
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  Speaker 1: Out Day on this May the seventh.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, it's also National Anxiety Disorder Screening Day.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that sounds important. It is National Barrier Awareness Day.
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  Speaker 1: There are barriers out there.
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  Speaker 2: There are too many. Sometimes. It is National Cosmopolitan Day.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, okay. It is National Day to Prevent Teen and
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Unplanned Pregnancy, not prevent teens, but to prevent teen pregnancy
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  Speaker 1: and unplanned pregnancy. That one seems I think very very important.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty impactful. I think it is National Deaf Interpreter Day.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. National School Nurse Day. Hey, shout out,
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  Speaker 1: shout out for this to the school nurses.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, more power to you. That's that's a tough that's
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  Speaker 2: a tough gig, so many kids with headaches and vomiting.
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  Speaker 2: Is National Skilled Trades.
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  Speaker 1: Day, okay. It is National Tourism Day. Ooh.
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  Speaker 2: It is National Walk, bike and Roll to School Day.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. It is Occupational Safety and Health Professionals.
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  Speaker 2: Day, it certainly is. It's also Paced Up Day.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. I don't know what that means. Is protect Aces Day?
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  Speaker 1: Does this have to do with the card game or something?
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  Speaker 2: Great question?
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of holidays where you know, there's just
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  Speaker 2: customs that we just don't understand, and that's okay. Maybe
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  Speaker 2: it taste hard with whatever whatever might be going on there. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It is air Quality Awareness Week.
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  Speaker 1: Very good, very good. It is Arson Awareness Week related. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It is Be Kind to Animals Week. Love that.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, let's do that every week.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It is National Hug Holiday Week. Ooh.
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  Speaker 2: And this is particularly important for Florida. It is National
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  Speaker 2: Hurricane Preparedness Week. We're starting to get into the hurricane season,
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  Speaker 2: so the joy.
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  Speaker 1: Very important for Florida. For sure. It is Jewish American
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  Speaker 1: Heritage Month.
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  Speaker 2: It certainly is. It is ASL Awareness Month as well.
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  Speaker 1: No, it goes hand in hand with our the day
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  Speaker 1: the National Deaf Interpreter Day, it does, right, National Wildfire
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  Speaker 1: Awareness Month. I guess that's related to the Arson Awareness Week.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes it is. And it is also Jesse Spiker's birthday.
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  Speaker 2: Happy birthday, Jesse, my little brother.
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  Speaker 1: Oh that's cool. That's actually coincidentally. The day on which
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  Speaker 1: we're recording is my brother and sister are their twins.
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  Speaker 1: It's their their birthday. So happy birthday my brother and sister.
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  Speaker 2: Love that. Happy birthday to everyone.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, that's great for the holidays. Happy to have been
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  Speaker 1: able to share those with everybody, and hope you enjoy
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  Speaker 1: your your your grump up day or whatever, a grump
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  Speaker 1: out day or whatever it is that that really stood
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  Speaker 1: out to you in that list of things. But we
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  Speaker 1: do have a separate discussion all together here, and this
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  Speaker 1: one I guess leans politics. Maybe it leans more sort
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  Speaker 1: of economic philosophy, if you will, And hopefully that doesn't
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  Speaker 1: scare you away, because what we're talking about here is
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  Speaker 1: privatization and what that means and the effects that it has,
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  Speaker 1: and more or less the arguments that people make for
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  Speaker 1: and against the idea of this. But like we like
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  Speaker 1: to do sometimes, I think it's helpful to just take
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  Speaker 1: a step back and appreciate the context of this, of
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  Speaker 1: the situation, so that the nuanced discussion that takes place
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  Speaker 1: about any topic, but in this case, privatization I think
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  Speaker 1: is better situated by thinking more broadly about the overarching
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  Speaker 1: context than just a should should we or shouldn't we?
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  Speaker 1: And I think that invites things like nuance, which is
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  Speaker 1: important in a discussion like this because there aren't black
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  Speaker 1: and white answers a lot of the time, and when
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  Speaker 1: you have different ideas about how things could or should
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  Speaker 1: be run, and so yeah, so we'll dig into that.
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  Speaker 1: I guess.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is a pretty complex conversation, and
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  Speaker 2: I do think that there is part of this conversation
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  Speaker 2: is couched in a bigger discussion about capitalism. I would imagine, yes,
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  Speaker 2: because there's so much that you know, capitalism influences what
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  Speaker 2: is and isn't privatized in all these ways. So we'll
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  Speaker 2: kind of talk about that a little bit and see
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  Speaker 2: what that looks like. But to give a little bit
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  Speaker 2: of background and kind of to really start to understand
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  Speaker 2: this topic, I think we should just dive in. So,
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  Speaker 2: in a civilization in which people have coalesced into an
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  Speaker 2: organized group with recognized systems and hierarchies of power, established
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  Speaker 2: borders and rules for conduct, a system of organized power
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  Speaker 2: is put into place. Sometimes that it's king, sometimes that
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  Speaker 2: it's a church. Sometimes it is a parliament. Sometimes the
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  Speaker 2: group decides that they will collectively vote to elect their leaders.
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  Speaker 1: In a democracy, yeah, some way or another, you're going
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  Speaker 1: to have some system of a semblance where there are
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  Speaker 1: an overarching set of sort of policies that affect the
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  Speaker 1: fabric of that society, if you will. However it's put together.
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  Speaker 1: One of the reasons for this, often, like the reason
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  Speaker 1: for any kind of governments like system to exist, be
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  Speaker 1: it kings, be it democracies, and everything in between, one
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  Speaker 1: of the reasons is how that system should collect and
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  Speaker 1: distribute resources, and how and to what extent that system
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  Speaker 1: creates systems to support the citizens of that country. So
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  Speaker 1: we're sort of establishing here like we're all agreeing to
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  Speaker 1: live together because doing so comes with lots of benefits.
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  Speaker 1: It means that if we pool our resources, then we
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  Speaker 1: will have those resources available in times of scarcity. It
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  Speaker 1: means that those of us who have trouble accessing those
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  Speaker 1: resources typically will then have access to them. It provides
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  Speaker 1: a great insulating, overarching infrastructure that means that we can safely,
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  Speaker 1: incomfortmfortably live and have access to the things we need
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  Speaker 1: to survive and thrive as a species. Does that make
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  Speaker 1: sense right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. A lot of times people think the function
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  Speaker 2: of the government is to create laws and to have
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  Speaker 2: elected officials and to create policy, and that is such
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  Speaker 2: a big part of it. But a lot of it
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  Speaker 2: is infrastructure. Yeah, So a lot of government requires it,
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  Speaker 2: Like it's to set up infrastructure, things like ways by
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  Speaker 2: which we travel, guidelines for how we travel. You know,
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  Speaker 2: both of us just spend a lot of time on flights. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and that is all regulated by government processes, communication systems,
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  Speaker 2: you know, resources like water, electricity, like all of these
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  Speaker 2: our different types of resources that are often governed or
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  Speaker 2: managed by government entities. And having a government that is
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  Speaker 2: efficient and does work on this can allow people more
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  Speaker 2: people to access these resources and meaningful ways. But we'll
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  Speaker 2: talk a little bit about that too, because it's not
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  Speaker 2: always the government that's doing this stuff.
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  Speaker 1: Definitely not. But yeah, exactly you said exactly right. And
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  Speaker 1: you know, I try to imagine like a scenario in
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  Speaker 1: which you a plane full of people land on an
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  Speaker 1: island and they are sort of they're all trying to
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  Speaker 1: struggle to survive there, and while they're struggling to survive,
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  Speaker 1: they start organizing, like, all right, let's figure out how
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  Speaker 1: we can make this work a little bit better. Let's
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  Speaker 1: have when it sends, some people who are particularly good
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  Speaker 1: at carpentry type things like want to ask you to
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  Speaker 1: help us build things. Some people who are really good
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  Speaker 1: at cultivating food want to ask you to grow things.
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  Speaker 1: And we're all going to sort of take on these
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  Speaker 1: different jobs so that we can survive this ordeal together
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  Speaker 1: and hopefully get through it on the other side. And
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  Speaker 1: so we're we're going to have some system by which
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  Speaker 1: we've adopted a set of rules and try and do
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  Speaker 1: our best to facilitate our survival here. And in doing so,
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  Speaker 1: what they have essentially said is like it would be
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  Speaker 1: really difficult for one person to take this on all
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  Speaker 1: by themselves, to be have to be their own carpenter
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  Speaker 1: and their own doctor, and their own farmer and their
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  Speaker 1: own everything else. Like if we divide those tasks up
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  Speaker 1: we'll all be better off because we've all sort of
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  Speaker 1: focused our efforts on a thing that we do really
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  Speaker 1: well instead of a whole bunch of things that we
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  Speaker 1: don't do very well at any any of them. Right, right,
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  Speaker 1: Like that's basically what the government is like. But I
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  Speaker 1: mean it obviously can be a lot more than that,
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  Speaker 1: but like that's it is. Just it is a group
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  Speaker 1: of people. We're making decisions and organizing a system for
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  Speaker 1: a group of people. Another one that you to build
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  Speaker 1: on what you had said is like our system of money. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that exists because we have a government that prints that money,
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  Speaker 1: that establishes a value for that money, that has facilitated
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  Speaker 1: an infrastructure in which that money can be exchanged for goods.
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  Speaker 1: So like that is one of the things that the
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  Speaker 1: government does as well. The other thing is the government
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  Speaker 1: could say things like we are invested in protecting the
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  Speaker 1: lives of our citizens, and so that might mean look
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  Speaker 1: look like things, We're going to organize a group of
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  Speaker 1: people over here for defense. We're also going to organize
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  Speaker 1: a group of people over here to ensure we have
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  Speaker 1: clean and safe drinking water. We're going to organize a
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  Speaker 1: bunch of rules around like we can't allow certain people
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  Speaker 1: to do things that would take advantage of others and
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  Speaker 1: would shrink the effectiveness of our society. So we're going
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  Speaker 1: to prevent that type of thing. So all of those
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  Speaker 1: are kind of rules that are systems that happen within
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  Speaker 1: a set of rules for people who are again trying
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  Speaker 1: to have a functioning society. And that's why that thing matters.
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  Speaker 1: Like you just don't really find a large cohesive group
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  Speaker 1: of people working together without some kind of organization around
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  Speaker 1: how they divvy up and allocate resources in a group,
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  Speaker 1: and you will sometimes find ads, Okay, we're back. We've
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  Speaker 1: barely scratched the surface here, just trying to I think
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  Speaker 1: really like this is why I said we need to
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  Speaker 1: establish the context and the framework upon which we're going
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  Speaker 1: to discuss privatization, because it's important to understand the privatization
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  Speaker 1: exists only in a situation where you have a government,
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  Speaker 1: and then understand like why do we have a government?
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  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people will have value
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  Speaker 1: statements to them about what a government should or should
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  Speaker 1: not be. And while I do think that would be
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  Speaker 1: a very fun conversation to have, that's not really the
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  Speaker 1: point of this today. I wanted to just try and
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  Speaker 1: give the global like every system of government that seems
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  Speaker 1: to exist is largely about like how do we organize
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  Speaker 1: a large group of people to exist as a society
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  Speaker 1: where we as one of the things is collected and
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  Speaker 1: allocate resources. It does other things too, but that's one
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  Speaker 1: of them. Right.
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  Speaker 2: So the government, when we talk about this entity, they
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  Speaker 2: can sell or offload responsibilities because there are a lot
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  Speaker 2: of responsibilities. When you have a group of people and
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  Speaker 2: you are managing all these different systems and all these
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  Speaker 2: different processes, there are a lot of responsibilities. And so
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  Speaker 2: what they can do is they can sell or offload
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  Speaker 2: that responsibility of assets and programs to unaffiliated corporate entities
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  Speaker 2: or private entities. So for instance, railroads and airlines are
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: all run by privately owned companies or at least those
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  Speaker 2: that are separate from the government. So as an example,
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  Speaker 2: Delta or Amtrak are our private companies that are existing
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  Speaker 2: inside of government rules. Right. This process is called privatization, denationalization,
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  Speaker 2: or disinvestment. And as we just indicated, this is when
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  Speaker 2: the government sells state owned assets or contracts those assets
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  Speaker 2: to the private sector in some way, to companies that
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: are not under the oversight of any government agencies. So
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  Speaker 2: they're not elected officials, they're not they don't have the
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  Speaker 2: same rules and benefits of government folks, many of them
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  Speaker 2: at least, you know, they're not on the oversight and
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  Speaker 2: they're not subject to government bureaucracy, so again for many
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  Speaker 2: of them, which means that they don't have to go
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  Speaker 2: through the same rules, regulations, processes like approvals that they
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: would if they were inside of a government a government system.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and we'll continue to sort of make sure we
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  Speaker 1: reiterate very clearly what privatization means, but because it kind
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  Speaker 1: of means different things for different industries. But as you said,
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  Speaker 1: I think broadly could be thought of as selling government
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  Speaker 1: assets or handing government programs over to private entities through
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  Speaker 1: contracts with the government. And some strongly advocate for privatization
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  Speaker 1: of government programs. They think that that is the way
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  Speaker 1: that things should go, and others think the government should
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  Speaker 1: establish and maintain control over most or all of those services,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: and I guess domains or agencies that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 1: So I think, rather than advocate for an explicit position,
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  Speaker 1: I had actually start with pointing out that we're taking
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  Speaker 1: a nuanced position here because of what the evidence says
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  Speaker 1: works and doesn't work. And so we're going to lay
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: out the arguments for and against privatization and will also
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: unpack some of the research that has been done to
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: help inform decisions about this and I think again guide
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  Speaker 1: new wants in this discussion.
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  Speaker 2: Right absolutely. So, I mean, let's start with the arguments
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: for privatization. And I would imagine that if you're listening
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: to this show, you probably know that we have maybe
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: a particular bias around this, and we're going to try
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: to do our best to kind of lay this out
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  Speaker 2: really clearly, but without trying to inject too much judgment
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: into this part just yet, I think it's fair to
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: warn that many of the arguments that we're about the
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: layout are are going to be deeply cynical and for
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: reasons they'll see as we kind of hear so you'll
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: hear us give reasons that are rooted in opinions, not
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: necessarily facts totally. But I also want to kind of
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: point out that, like, not all of them are just
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  Speaker 2: our opinions. This is kind of like a larger discussion
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  Speaker 2: that come from kind of the general view of privatization,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: not just our view of privatization.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, these are specifically communicating many other people's opinions
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: about this. Yeah, just a warn that, like I'll try
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: and be pretty clear that, like this is someone's opinion
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: versus this is just a fact. Sure, because we're talking
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: about arguments for privatization, I would say most of this
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: is going to be opinion, but they are followed by
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: sort of logical arguments, if you will, sort of coherent
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: statements that are intended to support that position, that opinion.
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  Speaker 2: Right, and we'll kind of sprinkle in like the behavioral
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: like a little bit of like behavioral science inside of
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: that too, Like, I mean, that's what we're getting here.
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  Speaker 2: So it's true here that a lot as we as
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: we discuss.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: It, Yeah, a lot of these points will come with
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: embedded caveats and like critical pushback if you will. Sure,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: so you'll get to hear a little bit of different
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: sides of this, because it's not necessarily that the argument
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: for privatization has an exact corresponding counter argument. It's more like,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: here's a reason that we think this is good, and
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: differently from that, here are reasons we think that this
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: is bad. For the most part, you'll see what I
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: mean yeah. One of the most common arguments made in
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: favor of privatization is that private companies are incentivized toward
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  Speaker 1: efficiency and therefore operate more efficiently. This is both fact
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  Speaker 1: and opinion in a sense, and I'll explain more about
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  Speaker 1: that a second, but essentially the ideas privatization is more efficient.
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  Speaker 1: Government programs may hire and retain staff even when it
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: is not in the financial interest of that program, because
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: their primary goal and the instance, is just to maintain
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: that program job laws, and they also view job losses
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: as bad for the economy and for the government. And
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: so while it is potentially inefficient to have that many
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  Speaker 1: staff even in times of like scarcity, government programs may
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: have those staff anyway. Alternatively, in private companies, executives of
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: these private companies are incentivized to cut costs and maximize profits.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Government official in a government entity, the government officials do
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  Speaker 1: not receive incentive for profitability and efficiency, so they may
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: not work to increase efficiency and profitability. They may not
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: try and encourage efficiency in their workers. Again, this part's
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: very much opinion. Like I think saying this could happen,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: it's not unreasonable to say this could happen. It could,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and as I said, evidence does in fact show that
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: there is in private when something becomes more private or
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: it becomes privatized in this instance it is owned by
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: some non government corporate entity, evidence shows that there are
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: some improvements and labor efficiencies. Sometimes there are increases in productivity. However,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: the authors of one study that was looking at this,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: they pointed out that the research that has been done
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: has kind of only examined brief windows of time following
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: that privatization, and so they didn't really get any good
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: longitudinal data that would follow how that effect of that lasts, Like,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: does that does it continue to maintain higher work efficiency
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: and higher productivity in the instances when it does because
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: it doesn't always do that, and so we don't know.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: But it does seem like in the short windows of
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: time that the research was done there was at least
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: some increase in the labor efficiency. A lot of the
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: time productivity a little more hit or miss, but did
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: happen sometimes, So like there is some evidence that there's
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: some efficiency here.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, another argument is that government programs mainly operate
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: in line with election cycles, where like private entities are
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: kind of insulated against that to a degree right to
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: a degree. I don't want to say, like you know,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: it's it's perfect, like a perfect like you know, separate
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: type of relationship. So what we're saying here is that
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: government run programs are subject to the whims of funding
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: and maybe unwilling to invest in infrastructure to improve their
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: systems as they may be disrupted with changes intelected leadership.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: We're actually watching this happen right now, so you're kind
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: of watching this happen in real time. Where Like social
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: programs may be defunded based on more conservative views and
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: kind of a move towards privatization, whereas private companies and
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: private organizations that are not subject to those types of
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: grants and the type of funding that comes from government
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: may not be impacted this same way. Private companies are
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: able to focus on their operations and efficiency without explicit
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: concerns about government budgets or overseers. If budgets are slashed,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: then private companies are only affected if it affects their
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: contracts that they have with the government. Otherwise, if they're
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: operating outside of that, they don't really have the same
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: type of impact from those budget cuts and those regulations
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: and the things that might change through these administrative changes.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: There are, of course, I think, very clear examples in
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: which even private industry is dramatically affected by government win.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: For example, the government enacts incredibly unprecedented steep tariffs, which
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: means that that company that is dealing any kind of
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: having to buy materials from outside the United States in
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: any way, are paying significantly higher taxes for those goods.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: That cuts into company's profits or forces them to pay
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: more for their their goods and services, which in turn
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: makes them less affordable to people, meaning that they actually
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: get fewer less patronization of their bug business. They can
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: also be affected by things like when the government cuts
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the jobs of tens of thousands of people that would
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: otherwise patronize that private industry, those people are no longer
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: spending money at that industry, and therefore that private company
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: can start to lose profits because people aren't spending money
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: there because the government slashed their jobs, and so like,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: there are ways in which the private industry is still
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: going to be and like that's just too there are
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: a lot more, but there are ways in which those
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: those private industries still are going to be affected by
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: like administrative decisions. But as you said, like it's different
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: for like those those are like the runoff effect from
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: what the government actually does to government run programs, which
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: is what they're doing at the time of those recording
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: at least, right, which is absolutely gutting them and saving
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: no money in the process.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's probably a time for showing our privatization by
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: allowing them to run ads. All right, let's come back.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: So we've just been describing a couple of the reasons
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: arguments for privatization. Another argument in favor of privatization is
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: that private companies have or can have competition with other
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: privately owned companies, and this competition is one of the
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: reasons that private companies may be more efficient. And that's
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: going to be a very important point we'll circle back
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: around to later, So put a pin in that. Yeah,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: So there's a couple of reasons that people like competition.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: One is the competition may foster innovation because those companies
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: are essentially trying to get ahead of the other companies.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: They're trying to get ahead of the competition by innovating
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: and driving sort of progress forward, if you will, whereas
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: a government program really has no reason to be competitive
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: and little reason to innovate, like their job really is
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: to just provide the service and just do it. However
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: they're expected to do it importantly, However, it does depend
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: on the nature of the market for the industry being
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: privatized because some services and industries they don't really have competition.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: They don't have a lot of people who are a
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: lot of companies, or even the opportunity for multiple private
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: organizations to have a stake in that service. And what
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: that means is that like when when a company may
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: become privatized and there's no competition for them, they essentially
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: become an instant monopoly, right, which is to say that
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: they have total dominance over the market for that service,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: which means that they then control everything about how that
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: service exists, and that can come with some other problems
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: that we'll be discussing a little bit later. I think
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of people like this idea of competition because
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: it can, as I mentioned, it can drive efficiency and innovation. Also,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: there are many people who have a value in the
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: idea of there being winners and losers, like they want
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: there to be some people who fail because that means
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: that other people succeeded. They just like that system I
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: think that's personally kind of gross. Yeah, I can see
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: that there are some interesting incentives that do come out
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: of like a competitive environment that could result in some
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: beneficial outcomes.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think in the medical and tech world,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: you're seeing that a lot, right, Like privatized medicine has
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: led to innovations in technologies that allow for better scans
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: or improve medication and stuff like that. Like where we're
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: starting to see some of that stuff. But there's cons
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: of that too, and I'm sure we'll talk about that
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: later when it comes to like medical patents and privatization
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: of IP and stuff like that. So this point made
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: me think a lot about Project Warp Speed, yeah, and
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: what that looked like. So, like specifically, if you all
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: did not listen to the episode about vaccines and how
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: the COVID vaccines were developed, I think this is one
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: of those situations where you had three you had probably
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: multiple private agencies that were working on vaccines, but there
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: were three that really stood out. And those vaccine companies
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: were put in a position where they were given government
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: contract essentially to develop these vaccines at a very rapid rate.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: And this is going to go in kind of the
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: second point too about this idea of efficiency and competition
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: and deregulation. But basically what happened was you had three companies,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: private companies, private pharmaceutical manufacturers that were able to rapidly
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: develop three competing vaccines to varying degrees of effectiveness. But
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: it was one of those things where you had these
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: they happened rapidly, and the first person to get the
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: vaccine out was going to get all the kudos and
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: all the stuff. The first person to get an effective
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: vaccine out was going to be the hero of the day,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: effectively for the world. And so there was kind of
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: a little bit of an interesting competition I think in
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: that space, which I don't think that people realize how
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: much competition there was there.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: So one argument adjacent to the efficiency, innovation, and competition
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: point for privatization. Again, remember we're talking about the points
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: for privatization is the idea of deregulation. So this is
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: a topic that deserves its own discussion because there are
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: lots of pitfalls with deregulation. But really, in short, the
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: argument for privatization and deregulation is that it means they
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: can remove rules and guidelines regarding how entities can behave
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: it outlines rules for safety, social justice, for environmental protections,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: but deregulating industries removed those rules and guardrails in the
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: service of increased profitability for shareholders or increased more rapid outcomes. So,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: again going back to the Project Warp Speed, a lot
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: of what happened there was the guidelines around the strict
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: structure of vaccine development. Those regulations were removed and they
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: were I don't want to say they were removed, they
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: were reformulated so that the regulations were still there, but
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: they were there was a modification that allowed the development
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: of those vaccines to happen more rapidly.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, essentially, and just as you had mentioned, going back
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: and listen to that episode, we did a very thorough
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: breakdown of that. But the overarching idea and that instance
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: was like they basically allowed them to do things simultaneously
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that they usually had to do consecutively. Right, So it's
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: like all these steps of research usually do one than
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the next, than the next, and it was like, we
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: can do them all the same time, and they'll cut
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: down the time it would take for this dramatically to
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: get this under control. So and ultimately that was a
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: very successful program that worked really really well and had
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a great outcome. So like I actually think, you know,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: kudos to that because it really worked, right, Okay. Another
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: argument in favor of privatization is that selling government assets
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: can raise significant income for the government while simultaneously lowering
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: the cost to the government because you can imagine, like
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: if the government was paying to run those services and
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: then it sells it to a private company, that government
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: is no longer paying to run those services. So it
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: both decreases how much the government is spending and they're
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: going to make a lot of money from the sale
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: of those of that service or asset, whatever it is.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Of course, those assets are often almost always sources of
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: revenue for the government, and selling them means that the
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: government is now cut off from the revenue that they
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: also got from those services, because just because they were
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: spending money on it doesn't mean that they weren't also
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: making money on it.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about this, and I was trying to
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: imagine like an analogous scenario to a private to some
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: other entity, and I'm going to choose a private business
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: in this case. Let's say that like you had a
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: restaurant and they decided to sell off all of their
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: kitchen supplies, and because they do this, they'd make a
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: lot of money from the sale of selling all those
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: kitchen supplies, so they're going to have a large influx
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: of cash all of a sudden, And then they would
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: have to hire a separate entity, some other private entity
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: to do the cooking for them because they sold off
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: all the cooking supplies, so they can't do it, so
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: now they need to hire someone to do it. So
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: they make money from the sale, but then they spend
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: money paying people to make the food. So I'm not
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: sure how efficient that really is ultimately, Like right, it's
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: like you're getting the same outcome but spending more on it.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, but at least you did get a
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: huge influx of cash.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see. Like, Okay, so like maybe the
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: kitchen develops some new technology, they sell it, but now
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: they don't have the technology to cook, so they still
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: sell the food. They sell the food that the people
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: that are cooking it for them are making. So they're
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: just not they're just they it's not all controlled by
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: the same kitchen, right, Like it's just they Like so
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: there's there's other questions and other concerns that come up,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Like so I'm going to pay this other kitchen, you know,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: a lump sum, let's say, a contract, and they'll do
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: all the cooking for me, which is awesome. Yeah, because
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: now I don't have the overhead of the labor and
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: all the stuff that would be additional cost of the government.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: It is less costly, but I'm still not really making
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: that much money. I'm just kind of making a little
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: bit of money on the food, right, So, like it
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: is weird. It's a weird relationship.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: And the company that you're paying to make the food
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: for you, they are paying for their labor, which means
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: they're charging you for the labor of their right of
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: the thing they're doing. So it's like, I don't know
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: if you actually saved or made any money here. You
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: just offloaded one responsibility and added another cost. So I guess,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: as you said, like it did shift the overhead of
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: the cost of like having to run that kitchen and
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: maintain the kitchen and maintain your staff, but you you
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: are also now spending all of that money that you
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: saved from doing that on hiring someone else who's doing
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: the same thing. Right, but they might not care as
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: much about your brand because they could also be getting
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: hired out by other kitchens, right, or by other restaurants
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: to be their kitchen and just to bring them their
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: food as well, So like there could be a marked
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: decrease in quality if like it's not your business that's
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: on the line for like producing good food. So the restaurant,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: like the kitchen that you hire to do this. Anyway,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: We've let this metaphor go on very far. Let's continue.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. One potential argument in favor for privatization has
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: to do with how programs are made and paid for.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Government programs are paid for often and mainly through tax dollars.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: That means that everyone who pays taxes pays for those
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: programs to some extent, whether or not they ever get
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: to benefit from those programs. Many may feel it it's
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: unfair to have to pay for services that they don't
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: even use. I think that's a conversation later about like
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: a values argument. Right, sure, that's one hundred percent of
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: values argument. Now, by privatizing those services, people pay for
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: them when they need them, and only the people who
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: use those services then bear the cost of them, and
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: they may feel this is fair to many to offload
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: services in this way. Of course, this is only really
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: true of services that are used by few. Services that
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: are used by all are essentially no different, except they
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: just become more expensive in a privatized space.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the last argument is the one that I
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: really found the most persuasive and for privatization, And maybe
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: other people will not find this as persuasive. Maybe other
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: arguments that we made people will find is much more
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: persuasive than this, but this one to me was the
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: most persuasive, and that is that government run programs can
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: be very heavily influenced by each new administration that then
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: gets into office and the shifting time of like politicians
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and party politics that are going on. And this means
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: that the government can enact political agendas through the agencies
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: over which they have control, and private companies do not
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: or should not have politicians advancing government policies through those
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: industries and foisting them upon consumers, whereas government agencies may
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: be pressured or forced to adopt policies that are not
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: in the best interest of the people who would use
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: those services right right. And further, this may be a
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: way for the government to use those services to also
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: track those citizens in a way that could be dangerous
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: if and when those political agendas change. For example, if
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the government decides, for whatever reason that needs to keep
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: track of let's just say all gay people, or just
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: for hypothetical example, all autistic people. They may be using
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: existing service databases to do this from inside the government.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: And to me, that is an extremely compelling argument to
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: say that, like, if there are government agencies that have
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: that people really depend on, and then the government can
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: go on and more or less exploit those agencies to
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: advance their political agenda, even when it does not really
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: help anybody who are using those services and may even
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: make their lives much worse. That is a pretty significant
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: argument to say that, Like a private industry would be
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: insulated from that because the government can't do anything to
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: that private industry. Like they're going to advance whatever agenda
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: they're trying to advance as an organization or as a company,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: which in most cases is just make money, Like that's
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: really all they care about, so like whatever gets them
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: there gets them there. But that often means that they
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: are sort of forced to do things that are generally
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: in their best interests, which are generally in their client's
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: best interest, because if they do a really terrible job,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: for example, then people will choose competitors. And I think
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: there's definitely a conversation to be had about how price
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: fixing and like all like these companies can and have
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: get together and then like agree that they're not really
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: going to compete with each other like they will on paper,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: but they're also like collectively deciding, hey, if we work
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: together to raise all of our prices, we can make
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: more money and nobody can do anything about it because
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: we are there, like everyone in this room. Is the
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: competition with everyone in this room. Sure, And like we
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: actually we specifically talked about that in one of our
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Halloween episode about coffins, that like they were there was
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: found to be some price fixing where they specifically were
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: raising the price of coffins, and all the coffin manufacturers
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: just kind of agreed to do this because they could
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: make more money that way. And it was like there's
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: not that many of them. They just get a few
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: of them in the room and they're like, let's just
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: jack out the prices on these things, and what are
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: they going to do about it? Like we yeah, everyone
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: in this room is a competition for everyone in this room,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: We're just going to agree to raise the prices. And
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: other companies have done this too. So anyway, it's like.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: The chocolate tears in the Wanka movie. Yeah, all the
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: chocolate big wings got together and they they tried to
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: they tried to get Wonka out, and because they all
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: agreed on what the service should look like, there.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: You go, there you go. So anyway, that I think
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: went way more down the rabbit hole of why I
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: think that that doesn't always work. But I think the
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: point being that, like the main argument that that I
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: found so very compelling is just that private companies more
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: or less should be insulated from advancing political agendas from
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: every new administration or like every major change in political
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: dynamics that happens at the government level. Does that make sense?
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think people might hear that and go, well,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: there are plenty of companies that, like, you know that
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: they vote with their money or they legislate and stuff
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: like that, and yes they do, like private companies do
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: that all the time for their for their interest for
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: their company. But the thing is is like a company,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: like let's say Company A, is operating under two different administrations.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: That change in the administration is not going to drastically
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: alter the rules and regulations and the structure of that
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: organization like something like the Department of Health and Human
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Services would in this situation where like the agendas and
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: the policies inside of that government entity rapidly change depending
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: on the political whims of whatever administration is in place.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: The private entity can be kind of safe from that
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: and choose whichever way they want to operate. They can
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: make those choices, but they're not going to be forced
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: to make those choices compared to a government agency that
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: is going to have to follow the the you know,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: the political agendas and stuff like that. Like that's I
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: think a really I want to just make sure that
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: part is really clear.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, we still follow the agendas of ads. Okay,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: we've just sort of wrapped up talking about all the
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: arguments that we had outlined for this discussion that were
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: in favor of privatization. And there are others I tended
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: to see in looking and like looking into this that
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: they started to overlap a bit. They're like, well, this
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: reason and this reason and this reason as like well
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: three of those were really the same reason sure, Like
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: there's like how many different ways can you say efficiency?
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: A lot? Apparently, so like they weren't really making a
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: lot of unique arguments. It was like they just kept
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: making the same arguments over and over. So we kind
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: of distilled it down into those points. But of course,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: as we mentioned, I think it's worth discussing, you know,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: the arguments against Like that was the whole point of
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: this is to have a little bit of a nuanced
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: discussion here and say, like, there are I think good
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: faith reasonable arguments on both sides of this discussion, and
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: so we'd like to spell those out right. As we mentioned,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: in instances in which the market does not have and
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: possibly can't have, real competition, privatizing the market can create
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: these instant monopolies as I talked about before. For instance,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: having infrastructure for tap water has a high fixed cost,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: and it's like you have one set of plumbing, right,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: you can't really have competition here. So essentially what happens
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: when you privatize a municipal resource such as water is
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: that the company that takes that over has an instant
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: monopoly on that service, and monopolies grant the company the
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: opportunity to charge whatever they want for that service, right,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how important that service is to the
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: survival and the well being of the population. They can
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: charge whatever they want. They can do whatever they want
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: and further, without competition. This goes back to the whole
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: idea of like why privatization might be a good thing,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: is this whole idea of competition. Without competition, that company
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: has very little reason to invest in innovation and infrastructure, right.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Their bottom line is going to be make money, reduce costs.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: That's it. They'll charge whatever they want to charge, because
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: what are you going to do? Not drink water? Like,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: you don't have an option to do something else. And
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: so that's why monopolies are a very dangerous thing, and
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: it's really important to consider like when privatizing something would
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: create an instant monopoly.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Well, and so I think a good example of that
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: to kind of see where that becomes a problem is
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: something like think the power grids and infrastructure in Texas. Yeah, right,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: as an example, you know, you've got Texas government that
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: is has regulations and rules around power and electricity and
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: how it's produced and all stuff, but the grids are
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: all managed by private companies. It's really important to note
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: that those private companies do not share grids. They're responsible
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: for their own grids for whatever large area that they cover,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: and so so there's no reason to innovate or improve
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: on the grids or those systems that they are managing
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: or operating because they have control over said grid. So
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: if there is a problem, like let's say it gets
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: a little bit too cold and all the power goes
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: out in Texas, which happens regularly, the company is like, well,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: you're going to have to come through us anyway, So
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: there's no point in us fixing this or making this
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: even better for you. Why would we spend any money
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: on fixing this when we're going to have control over
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: this whether you want it or not. And there's not
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: other private companies that are vuying to control for that
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: in those areas a lot of times, so you've got
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: this situation where you've got one private company who has
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: monopolized a set of power grids in an area and
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: has no reason to improve that when they're when they
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: can kind of set the price for that area to
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: a degree and really kind of control how that works.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: So just that's one example of like how that can
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: go wrong. Especially when it comes to resources like that
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: that are kind of like essential municipal resources.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we and we'll have more examples of similar
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: type situations as we as we talked through this and
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: point to point out like not all of Texas power
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: is entirely privatized. Sure there is some public power, there
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: is some like investor backed power, but like they did
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: completely decouple themselves from like the rest of the US
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: power grid and in attempt for like independence, and that
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: has resulted in them having less reliable energy. And yeah,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: so so yes, very very fair and reasonable point there.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, to maximize profits and lower costs again, this
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: is arguments againstation private companies will happily attempt to reduce
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: pay for their employees, cut corners on safety, get away
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: with pollution, destroy the environment, and lobby for less and
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: less regulation to do this more and more impressively, as
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: many of these instant monopolies are services that are essentially
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: guaranteed by the government. In many instances, the government still
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: has to pay the company for these services, and the
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: company still charges whatever they want for those services, so
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: it doesn't even save the government money. It actually cost
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: taxpayer dollars to make those situations happen while also doing
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: the job worse than the government would. And when we
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: say worse, we mean, like, you know, the quality of
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: life of the folks that are involved in this are
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: not so great. The services may not be as high quality.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: There's lots of problems with this.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Less safety.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Less safety really is a big deal or price gouging,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: like you know, privatized medicine is an example of that. Further,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: the government may even need to establish an allocate funds
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: towards agencies to regulate and enforce the private industry if
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: they prove to be liabilities, which is why you might
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: have governments stepping in and setting price caps for medication
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: or legislating stuff like that, where like you know, an
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: EpiPen shouldn't cost nine hundred dollars for someone. Government may
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: step in and put like some caps on on like
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: a like a high end cap on how much that
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: medicine should cost.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, you imagine that the government more
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: or less sells some service to a private entity and
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: then the government has to then create an agency to
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: regulate that industry or else they have to like pay
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: the salary of people to go and like enforce regulations
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: for the industry because they're doing because the government's obligated
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: to provide a certain level of service to the public.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Like the FAA.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if the companies that they have hired are
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: not doing that, then they have to like spend money
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: to send people in to manage the fallout of that situation.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: So it's like, not only is that company operating in
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: many instances off of government contracts, but then the government's
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: having to spend additional money to go in and try
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: and regulate that company. I'm like, it's so much less efficient,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: it's almost laughable. Yeah, how bad it is in situations
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: like that where it's like it's cost the government more
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: money to do this now that they've privatized it, and
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: it works worse. Like, yeah, that's a bad situation.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: The two examples that stick out to me your FAA
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: and DOJ, right, like the Department of Justice. I mean,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: you can get in the Department of Education too, but
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I really think of like the two that stand out
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: to me the most are DOJ and managing prisons or
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: FAA and managing flight right.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I think and I actually have some
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: more examples around airlines, specifically as we'll go on as well.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Another argument is loss of revenue for the government. This
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: is arguments against privatization because, as we mentioned earlier, most
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: of the services that the government provides, they still like
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: cost money to the people who use those services. Right,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Museums that the government runs, they cost money to visit,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: the postal service, costs money to send packages and letters.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Law enforcement charges fees for violations. Like there are government
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: runs services that people still pay the government to use
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: those services. The governm essentially guarantees those services, but they
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: also can charge for them to an extent, so it's
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: like they fund them both through tax player dollars but
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: also through the money that those services make by bean
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: services that people use. Now, again, there are some that
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: don't really directly have any charges to people to use
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: those services, but a lot of them do. A lot
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: of them do have ways that they still collect revenue
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: for the use of those services and those programs. That
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: means that those programs generate revenue for the government. And
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: when the government sells off those services, while it does
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: reduce the overhead, it also reduces the income because like
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: that is a source of money for the government, even
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: if it was also cost them money at the same time.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of how businesses work anyway. So, like,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: let's just say, for example, you have some hypothetical company.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: They're really trying to maximize their profitability by reducing cost,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: and one of the most expensive things for companies, if
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: not universally the most expensive, the salary of their staff, right. Right,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: So this company, this hypothetical company, they decide what they're
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: gonna do is they're going to fire a bunch of
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: their salespeople. This means that the company no longer has
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: to pay the salary of those salespeople. It also eliminates
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: one of the ways that company was earning money to
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: begin with, because the salespeople were the people who were
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: bringing in the most income. So it's like, you cut
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: off the pipeline of money to save the cost on
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: having a pipeline of money. I'm like, I feel like
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: if you look at most businesses that grew and grew
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: and grew and grew and became gigantic, that was not
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: a strategy that they went with because that is not
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: a winning strategy, right, Like, if cutting off overhead means
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: cutting off income, then look for a different place to
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: find cuts.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly one of the places that I know
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: that we can't cut those ads all right, So we
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: are back with the arguments against privatization. So we've covered
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: quite a bit already and we still got some more
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: to go. So privatization may also break a cohesive system
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: into a fractured set of smaller systems. So basically, instead
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: of having one larger communicative system, you've got these smaller
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: systems that are interlocking with one another, that are really complex,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: that are that are kind of like you're gonna start
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: seeing breakdowns of communication. So if there was one system
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: that was conducted the same everywhere, right, so I've had
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: a federal system for let's say cheese making.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Sure Like, if.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: There was a federal a federal cheese making system, and
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: we were able to kind of regulate that across the board,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: it would use the same procedures, policies, forums, expectations, formats,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: all the things that would make that kind of entity work.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: And then you would be able to comprehensively use every
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: part of that system with little confusion because it would
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: be consistent across the board, and all of the pieces
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: would work together really well. Selling off those services into
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: smaller chunks. Actually to specifically de private companies means that
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: what was once a unified system becomes several separate, unique
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: systems that all work differently. That can create some different
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: confusions around how cheese has made, how safely people are working,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: how chese is transported. There might be some different things
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: that might happen in that industry that make it a
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: little bit more complex and a little bit more confusing
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: when we have to create laws and regulations that are
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: going to regulate all those smaller entities in some way.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: So let's put in a hypothetical here, like, let's imagine
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: that there was only one airline that existed, and there
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: was one app and one website for that airline. No
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: matter where you went, the rules and the policies were
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: always the same because it was always just that airline.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Every part of the system worked with every other part
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: of the system. Just try and imagine what that would
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: be like, Like, you wouldn't have to have a bunch
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: of different accounts, a bunch of different memberships, a bunch
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: of different apps. It'll just be one thing. And for
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: some people, I just describe their worst nightmare. And I
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: do actually think that like in a way, like the
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: diversity of options could be a really good thing, Like
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: people can choose what works best for them in the
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: situation is rather being stuck with one. I definitely hear
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: that argument. I think that's a very reason. But like
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: having the sort of one cohesive system where everything works,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons in my mind, at
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: least this is true for me, Like this is why
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who buy Mac buy everything Mac.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Like that's kind of what happened in my life, Like
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: I resisted it for a long time and eventually gave in.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: But Macintosh products, for those of you who are not aware,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: they work very seamlessly together. The more Mac products you use,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: the more easily and more synergistically they work together. And
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: it's a very tight cohesive little tech ecosystem that they've built,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Whereas alternatively, having several distinct system means that things don't
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: always work together, Like you have one type of software
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: for this, and one type of hardware for this, and
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: one type of hardware for this, and one type of
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: software for this, and there's all these different ones that
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: they don't really they kind of play nice like they try,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: but you often will run into these issues, right, they
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily work as easily together. Repairing them has totally
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: different people involved, totally different customer service, different systems. They
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: may just stop being compatible at some point. I've had
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: that happen with things that I've bought in the past.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: They just stop working together because for whatever reason, one
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: company sort of goes a different direction and it doesn't
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: agree with the way another company is doing their stuff.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: And a government program can work as a sort of
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: single cohesive system, right, And so you know, for those
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: of us who have like the AirPods and an iPhone
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: and a MacBook and an iPad and all those things,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: like it's pretty impressive how seamlessly those things all work together.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Like if I'm using my headphones with my phone and
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: I start playing something on my laptop, they instantly jump
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: over to my laptop and I don't even have to
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: press up button. They just figure out, oh, you're using
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: this thing now, and so they change where the sound
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: is being allocated. And like that's part of that is
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: because largely like these are all part of the same
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: technological ecosystem, so they work really really well together.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Right, And so if you zoom out on that and
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: apply that to like, you know, some type of like
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: singular system when it comes to services, you're going to
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: see similar outcomes, would imagine right now. Ironically, one of
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: the arguments against privatization is that private companies may also
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: prioritize short term gains without consideration to long term outcomes.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: So companies react to market volatility, to shifts in consumer preference,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: and to political administrations and pressures. This means that the
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: argument for and against privatization regarding short sightedness cancel each
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: other out because they are the same either way.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: And I guess I didn't actually explicitly, right like indicate
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: when we're talking about arguments for privatization that like governments
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: can be short sighted, but it was implied in the
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: situation where it's like they're not going to invest in
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: like long term infrastructure because they never know what the
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: next administration is going to do to their budget, right
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: or they're operating policies and whatnot. But the same thing
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: can actually happen here. Because companies are specifically reacting to
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: market volatility, they may also like make very impulsive short
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: term decisions that's like, what's going to get us to
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: the end of this quarter, what's going to have, like
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: the the end of this year be the most profitable,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: and like that's as far out as they're considering, not
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: like what is this going to mean for us a
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: year from now or ten years from now? What is
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: this going to mean for like the environment and the
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and society as a whole. They're also being very shortsighted
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: and a lot of their planning, so I think that
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: there's kind of an irony there.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: Another significant argument against privatization is motive, And to me,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: this is maybe one of the most important considerations. And
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: what I mean by that is the motives behind the
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: decisions of the people who run that's like who sort
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: of conduct and manage that service, whatever it might be.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: And specifically that the motives of private companies is to
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: make as much money as possible. That's pretty much it.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Their bottom line is profit, whatever it takes to get there.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: Government agencies don't necessarily care about profitability, at least not
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: that much, and they can specifically prioritize social good over
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: their profits. They can emphasize that a service is that
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: they specify that first the service has a high degree
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: of safety, second that it has a high degree of
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: environmental protections, and is as green as possible. And then
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: third that it is generating revenue. Right, Like, they can
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: do it in that order, and private companies are not
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: going to do that. Right. The incentives are for a
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: government entity are essentially to fulfill on their obligations to
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: the public. They are obligated to provide free and fair elections,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: They are obligated to provide clean drinking water, they are
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: obligated to enforce laws. So like the government kind of
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: has to do that stuff anyway, Like those are their obligations,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: and so they might prioritize that over profit. But the
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: companies who the ones that are privately running those services,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: like their only incentive all of the time is cut costs,
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: maximize profit. That's it. The welfare of the people, that
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. How effective of this works for the environment
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. The only thing that matter is is make
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: as much money as possible.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we were talking about this before the show started,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: but there was this really I saw this really great
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: clip from an interview with Pete Boudhajez, and he talked
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: about how there is some level of responsibility for the
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: government to produce some product or outcome for the sake
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: of good, like for the sake of the community at
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: large versus like where a private company may not be
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: able to do that, and like for logistic reasons too.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: And the example that he brought up was the Internet
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: and how the Internet was born of basic research with
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: no ideas on the government making money on it. There
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: was no there was no discussion on like how is
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: the government going to make money on this? For the
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: same example of like roads, right, the government's not making
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: money on roads. They're not profiting on building roads and
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: infrastructure like that, they're not profiting on public schools. There
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: is a later benefit like with internet being able to
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: open up communication to people and make communication easier, or
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: roads allowing us to travel more easily and safer, or
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: schools producing folks that are well educated that can actually
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: do inform things and like improve communities at large later, Right,
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: those are like kind of tangential or secondary benefits of
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: those programs. What they're doing though, is like they're like
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: the government is doing basic research and they have an
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: incentive to just produce something that's going to benefit people,
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: where private organizations go, yeah, we can develop that, but
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: how are we going to make the money back from that?
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: And how are we going to sustain that and how
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: are we going to actually make money from that? So
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: he's basically saying the Internet never would have been created
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: if it was a privatized research project, right, And I
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: thought that was like a really powerful argument against privatization.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of industries can start this
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: way too, where like they start with the basic research,
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: with the government funding, with the investment in those because
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: the Internet has also enabled a huge amount of private
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: businesses to exist, like that they exist exclusively on the
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Internet in many cases, right, Like look at Canva, Like
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Canva's only reason to exist is to like do Internet
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: things right, or like Meta or whatnot, Like the giant, giant,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: giant industry that is Meta is an Internet based industry. Like,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: So privatization can come out of those programs, but they
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: start without the goal of like what is the quickest
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: way we can we can make a buck on this?
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's that's a that's a great point, right exactly.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: You know, we still decide the quickest way to make
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: a buck in a podcast is by playing ads. We're back.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Actually the quickest way to make a buck is through
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: a membership program with Patron supporters adds barely anything, but
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: they do pay more than nothing. So that's why we
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: play them. That's true, all right, So let's continue on here.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: If the just in the example we're talking about, or
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: we're sort of elaborating on the fact that, like with
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: private companies, who all they care about is making money.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Let's take an example of the government hiring a private
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: company to take over some service whatever they more or
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: less farm, farm that out, they sell the asset whatever
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: it is, and then that that company, whatever happens to be,
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: they go on and then like massively pollute the water.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: The The government is not only paying the company for
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: whatever their output is, like they're let's say they're hiring
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: them to provide some service let's just say, for example, prisons,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: but whatever it's polluting the water. They're now obligated to
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: also pay for the cleanup of the water because like
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: they they're on the hook for providing clean drinking water
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: to consumers. And so they paid for this industry to
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: do their thing, and the industry is putting the water.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Now the government has to pick up that tab as well. Again,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't even save money. The well being of consumers, society,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: and the planet wouldn't even make the top one hundred
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: reasons to do anything for a private company, but it
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: would be in like the top five reasons for the
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: government depending on the administration, right absolutely, which again is
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: a major and very reasonable argument or consideration there. But
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: that's I think one of the major arguments against here
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: is this, like is the motive piece. It's like, what
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: the company does not care whether or not you live
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: or die. It does not care whether or not you
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: are healthier safe. All it cares about is did it
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: make money off of you in this transaction? Yeah, And
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: again they're too short sighted necessarily to even be thinking
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: about the next transaction, although they will often try and
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: build like brand loyalty and stuff, but like, they'll sell
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: you a myth if that is an efficient way for
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: them to have a good Q two for their shareholders.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Right, and you know, and there are always exceptions to
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: the rule, but for the most part, that's one of
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: the biggest arguments against privatization is that there is no
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: obligation to the community, right, Like, I think that's the
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: thing that we kind of land on. It's like, there
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: is no motivation, obligation or incentive to support the community,
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: which leaves it open to private companies being able to
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: exploit resources in spaces where it is going to ultimately
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: harm the community. Yeah, and we'll talk about a couple
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: examples of what that looks like and exactly how privatization
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: has done that in some spaces. Yeah.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Actually, let's go and into those examples. Now.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: So, one example of privatization that can be a problem
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: is a privatization in military house The US Armed Forces
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: traditionally built and maintained housing for military service members and
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: their families. That was a government project. However, funding for
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: this was inconsistent and sometimes led to housing that was
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: in such disrepair that it was actually affecting recruitment efforts.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: And by offloading housing to private companies by providing military
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: families with housing vouchers, the companies were able to maintain
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: more appropriate housing accommodations, which save the government time and
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: money and improve the quality of life for service members,
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: according to a source we found. Now that being said,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: we also know that the housing market can be quite
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: a problem itself, and the proptization of the housing market
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: can also create some problems inside of that. So in
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: order for this to work the way that it is
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: working now, I would imagine that military housing also has
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of restrictions. For our folks that are behavior
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: analysts out here that go work in the field, and
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: you work on tricare, you know that tricare has like
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: a very high level of regulation compared to some other
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: commercial funding sources.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot of caveats that go with this,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: But that was an example of like how the private
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: companies did it better, the private companies did it cheaper,
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: and like it was ultimately in the best interest for
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: them to do that, and so like and again I
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: think like that's part of the why we wanted to
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: have a nuanced discussion here is I think there are yeah,
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: but and in this context type arguments to be had
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: to understand this. Yeah, there is a really important example
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: of privatization where it did not work out, And there's
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: like lots of examples of this on both sides of
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: the argument. I think there's lots of examples where it
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: went really well and like ultimately was to the benefit
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: of people, and there are times when it went very poorly,
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: and these are just a couple of them fore and against.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: So one is where this really worked out extremely poorly,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: as privatized prisons. Private prisons do not make sense in
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: any way. This is one of the most asinine ideas
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: anyone has ever had. But if you don't know already,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I'm going to briefly explain how private prisons work. The
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: private prison company, essentially what they operate on contracts to
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: keep prisoners in their prison. Right, contracts with the government.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: The government paid please them to have people in their prison,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: So the private companies hire as few staff as possible
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: and put as many people as possible into as little
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: space as possible, as many prisoners as possible. Right, A
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: private prison makes money through those government contracts by charging
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: per person who is in prisoned, and that means that
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: those companies are motivated to cram as many people as
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: possible into prisons with as few staff as possible. They
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: want to maximize as profits reduce their overhead. Right, they're
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: motivated to pay as little as possible for the well
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: being of the prisoners and their staff, and they're motivated
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: to keep those inmates as long as they can. And
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: this means that the government is paying money for prisons
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: but providing little oversight or into how those prisons are
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: being operated. But they're still responsible for the inmates if
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: and when things do go wrong. Right.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, after privatization, prison populations have increased. I mean there
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: are data to suggests this, right, to show this. Prison
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: populations have increased, prison sentences have increased, there are an
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: increased number of assaults on both guards and inmates. There
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: are dangerously low levels of support staff. There's increased coruption
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: inside of these spaces. Part of the reason for this
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: is that private prisons have been caught in schemes in
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: which they bribe judges for more guilty convictions and longer sentences.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: Private prisons increase crime and corruption, cost the government just
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: as much, if not more money, and actually decrease safety
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: for everybody. And this whole idea as a colossal failure
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: and should be reversed immediately. This is the example I
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: was bringing up before we talked about the Department of Justice.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: The Department of Justice contracts out the privatization of prisons
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: to these spaces. And as somebody who has worked in
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: prisons as a behavior analyst, I can tell you that
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: what you'll see in some prisons shows like the example
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: that comes up to me right now is like orange
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: is a new black like that is a dramatization of
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: what it's like in a prison, But a lot of
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: the stuff they talk about from the administrative standpoint when
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: a new company comes in and how they hire people
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: is really accurate.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's pretty.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: Representative of what actually happens, where people are move to
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: different prisons because they're just not making enough money somewhere,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: or the facility can't be upgraded because it's not in
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: the budget for the year, right, or the food is
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: really not that nutritious, so they're finding ways to cut
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: food and make it even worse for prisoners because at
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, like they're still trying to
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: make a buck. So those types of realities are very
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: very real in this space.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean those are the exact exact examples of
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: what has actually happened. Like people safety is very much
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: compromised in privatized prisons. This is such a bad idea
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: that has worked out so poorly that like, I think
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: that's one of the clearest examples of where we can
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: say nope, screw that one up, start over, Like, go
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: back to the drawing board. Nothing here is working. This
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: is a completely and utter up. And like I think
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: I have absolutely no sympathy for these companies whatsoever. I
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: think that they they should fork over every penny that
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: they have to the government. Let the government take back
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: over those prisons and have them be run that way,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: because like that is where we're going to have increase
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: safety and less government spending. Like this doesn't even save
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: the government money, Like there's just no reason for it.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: It's like you have no benefit and all you have
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: is downsides. So to you private prisons, and none of
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: you listen to me. But if just in the rare
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: case that you do, you you should be gone. And
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: I think that like your existence is an insult to
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: the idea of humanity. So like, yeah, that is one
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: where I think we can very clearly show like that
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: went the wrong direction, completely off the rails. Not all
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: privatization is going to be that much of a disaster,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: but this has been a monumental disaster and one where
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: there's just no redemption, like it should be done yesterday.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: It's so bad.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think another another example is privatization in medicine,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: right where you've got hospitals and facilities that can inflate
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: the price of a service. I know that I've worked
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: with folks where the don't receive a hospital bill, and
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: sometimes all they got to do is call the hospital
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: and be like, why did you charge me for this?
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: And they go, oh, my bad, and then just take
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: it off the bill. And that's because it's just not
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: regulated in certain ways. Martin Screlly is a perfect example
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: of this. The pharma bro that bought the Wu Tang
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: clan record and was being a jerk about everything has
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: the most punishable face in history. He's an example of
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: how he completely price gouged a particular medicine that was
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: necessary for people to live, just because he could. And
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: he explicitly said, because we can, because we have the
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: opportunity to do that, and there's no regulations on this.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: I know you're reading everything that is tuberculosis and I've
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: just finished that. One of the examples they bring up
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: is medication for tuberculosis in low income or high poverty countries,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: where Johnson and Johnson specifically had a patent for a
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: medication that could have saved millions of lives, and what
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: they tried to do was not only price how's that medication,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: but tried to take out a second patent to prevent it.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: From being created as a generic brand to help save
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: millions of lives because they were like, oh, we own
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: this medication. Privatization of medication and specifically medicine is awful, awful,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: awful awful. It is. It has cause people to lose
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: their houses, It has caused people to get to lose
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: their families, lose their marriages. It is caused so much
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: in the way of problems for folks that it just
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: doesn't it doesn't make any sense in any aspect, Like
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: it does so much more harm than good.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a pretty rough road. And just as
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: you said, like it goes to what should be considered
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: like a basic human right. It would think about like
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: we want to have a society in which we are
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: safe and comfortable, and like we want to take care
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: of humans because we are trying to have our species
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: be successful on this planet. Except if you get sick,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: in which case you'll just die unless you can pay
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: a crazy out of money, right and like that it's
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: just absurd, Like it's just absurd that like if you
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: had to get care flight to a hospital, that they
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: would cost you fifty thousand dollars, Like that's more than
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: some people make in an entire year fifty thousand dollars.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: That's insane that that should cost you that much and
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: that doesn't even count like what actually ends up costing
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: to then go to the hospital, right, Like the amount
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: that people end up having to pay is just unbelievable,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: and that like the administrative errors that happen, and it's
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: like it is a weird mishmash of like some privatized
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: some public services that are in there too, which I
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: think also makes it confusing, but it has definitely resulted
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: in a lot of harm.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, don't even get me started on the privatization of
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: student loans. Clearly we have a lot of opinions on it.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and don't give us started on ads. Okay, let's
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: just talk through a few more sort of studies an
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: example that have looked at privatization. These were all specifically
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: in the UK for some reason, but I think they
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: did a really nice job illustrating where this worked and
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: didn't work so well. So we'll just use a few
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: of these examples to show like what has happened in
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: spaces where private privatization occurred. And the first one is
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: the British Airport Authority. So Essentially what happened here was,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: if I recall correctly from my reading, they didn't write
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: this down I should have. But the British Airlines was
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: owned and operated by the government, like I think the Kingdom,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: the monarchy there or whatever the parliament. But then it
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: got sold off, and so they were kind of looking
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: at did this increase efficiency? Like that was one of
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: the things, like make money for the government, increase efficiency.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: And actually when they did research, it looked like there
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: was really no improvement in performance here whatsoever. It kind
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: of just like there was already improvements that were happening
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: and that trend stayed on exactly the same path, which
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: means it was unlikely to be due to Like if
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: there was no change in the trend in the data,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: that implies that the privatization had had no effect on
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: the performance improvements. Now, fortunately it didn't lead to a
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: decrease in improvements, but it's unlikely that they had anything
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: to do to help those improvements.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: So, like that was one example where privatization really did
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: not result in a net like positive or it didn't
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: accomplish what they thought that it would accomplish.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: Right. Another example is the water and sewage industry in
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: England and Wales, so it was privatized in nineteen eighty nine,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: and in a study in two thousand from Solid Parker,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: they actually found that it led to no rise in
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: productivity or at least an obvious rise in productivity and
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: or lower costs in production. What they actually found was
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: higher productivity and lower unit costs came when they put
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: more regulations in place, specifically price caps in nineteen ninety five.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: They started seeing changes once they put price caps onto
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: the industry at large.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: Another one they did was they privatized electrical utility companies.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: So there was a study from Polyt and Doma in
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: two thousand and one, and what they found is that
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: there was increased social benefits from the privatization of these
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: electrical companies. But and a major butt an important one
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: is that this was not evenly distributed across time and
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: across groups of people. It's like some people saw improvement
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: and others did not. And although the government gained an
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: enormous amount of money from the sale of that utility,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: consumers didn't see the benefit in the cost for quite
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: a while. Meanwhile, the producers had huge benefits, like the
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: utility companies were making money handover fist right from this sale.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: So like this one I think did show that, like
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: there was actually some social benefit and ultimately it ended
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: up did being realized in the form of cost savings
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: being passed on to the consumers of that utility, but
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: it was unequal in who got that benefit.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: Right now, there was a study that was done talking
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: about the overall privatizations in the UK and this is
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: a direct quote from Florio in two thousand and two,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: which I think, I think it kind of really illustrates
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: what's going on here. So this quote says privatization has
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: had no noticeable effects in terms of trends in productivity,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: employment and price levels at the firm or sector levels,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: after allowing for changes in technology and input prices, nor
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: on GDP growth and productivity at the national level. So
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: basically what this is saying is that there was really
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: no changes in trends at all, but taxpayers suffered a
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: loss of fourteen billion pounds but it got canceled out
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: by a transfer to stakeholders or shareholders. And so basically
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: what this was saying was like, this was not a
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: revolution in changes or improvements at all, but it actually
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: was a reshuffling of people that were involved, investors that
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: were involved, and it actually probably created more problems overall.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: So that's something that landed on and was like, yeah,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: like you kind of shifted the responsibilities and like this
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: and that, but it really didn't benefit anybody. The actually
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: probably caused more problems.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: Another one was from Parker and Wu in nineteen ninety eight,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: and they were looking at steel production. There was actually
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: decrease in performance after privatization, so there were more improvements
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: happening before British steel was privatized, and after it was
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: privatized there was a decline in performance in that industry.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: So privatization actually ended up with a worse outcome, right.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: And then as far as electricity goes an electricity generation,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Newberry and Poulett in nineteen ninety seven actually found that
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: labor productivity doubled, but specifically what they said was it
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: doubled since nineteen ninety mainly due to shedding labor, so
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: the real unit costs have declined end quote. So it's
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: really interesting to see kind of like the different viewpoints
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: and really kind of the overarching view on like whether
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: or not privatization worked here.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so ultimately, I think one of the main
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: closing arguments here is the extent to which privatization is
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: going to have a net good, a net positive for people,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: or a net negative for people depends a lot on
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: the type of industry that is being privatized. It also
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: depends on the type of regulations that exists in that space,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: and the potential for monopolies is really important when considering
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: when and where privatization makes the most sense and when
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: it does not. Because there are definitely instances in which
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: privatizing something improved that system and that ultimately resulted in
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: a net good for a lot of people. But there
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: are also a lot of these instances in which privatization
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: made things significantly worse, like prisons, for example. That was
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: a bad idea that didn't work out. Undoe control Z.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Sure like go back and fix that because terrible idea
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: executed terribly to terrible effect by people who are now
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: like turning out to be kind of gross terrible people,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: but probably because they work in that space and they
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: may have otherwise been normal, good people. Sure, I have, yes,
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: just no love or sympathy for that. It's so bad. Anyway,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: We've done very, very long. I think that's what we
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: probably have to say about privatization for now. If you
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: have thoughts on this and you would like to tell
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: us your experiences with privatization, your thoughts or compliments or whatever,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: you can email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: You can reach us on the social media platforms. Now,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get through a few more credit things,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: and then we're going to recommend some stuff with something
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: we like to do. We'll try and keep it quick
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: because we've ran a little long today. But every week
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: at the end of these full length discussions, we recommend
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: some things that we think we're fun that maybe people
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: will enjoy, or maybe they're not fun, but they might
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: have a net good whatever, we recommend things. That's all
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: you really need to know Before I do that. I
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: would like to say if you would like to support us.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: One way you can do that is by heading over
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: to Patreon. There you will get behind the scenes content,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: you'll get add free episodes, early episodes, all that kind
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: of thing, and it just helps us out. It helps
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: us make this show and we really appreciate everybody who
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: has done that. And in addition to that, if this
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: matters to you, and hopefully it does. We'll also go
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: through and we will read your name as as someone
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: who has taken the leap to really help us continue
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: be a podcast very generously, and that is Mike m Megan,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: Mike T, and Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian Ashley and Kiara.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for continuing to be our
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: support and to help us be a show. You're our
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: heroes exactly. And also thank you so much to my
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: team of people who help me make this podcast. Writing
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: in fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: recording with me today, Shane, Hey, thank you for having me.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: who does the audio and makes it sound like a
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: podcast is Justin. He's very good at his job and
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: we really appreciate him.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the best.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: Am I missing anything in terms of credits or anything?
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: Or should we are good for recommendations?
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: I think we're good for recommendations.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: All right, let's recommend some things.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, recommendations.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Okay, I am recommending a TV show. Season three just
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: wrapped of this fairly recently, and this is Wheel of Time.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: This is based off of the series of fantasy books
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: by the late Robert Jordan. This is probably my favorite
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: fantasy series. I love these tremendously. I love the world
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: building and the lore of Wheel of Time, and so
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: seeing it come to life on TV was really cool
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: for me. It was a really exciting thing. I think
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: seasons one or two. One and two were fine. I
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: think they worked hard to try and be good seasons,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: and they faced a lot of filming issues that were
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: a little bit out of their hand because a lot
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: of this they were already filming when COVID happened and
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: we went into lockdown. But the first season and that
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: affected a lot of things that sort of threw the
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: show off kilter. But season two improved on that, and
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: season three not only improved on season one and two.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: But like, this is at the point now where it's
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: just really good television. Like this is just it just
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: makes for good TV. And so I think if you
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: have been trying to keep up with the show and
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: you haven't caught this season yet, definitely do so. And
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: if you were curious about it, I would say go
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: back and start watching the show, because once you get
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: to season three, of think they've really found their footing. Now,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: not that like any part of the show was ever boring,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: but I think that like their ability to do world
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: building and have non readers of the book follow along
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: is the best it's ever been. And this season also
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: was like the highest action, the most intrigue, the most
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: sort of edge of your seat thrills, and the most
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: like demonstration of like I guess I would say power
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: of the people in here, but suffice to say, I
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: guess the most action is where I put it. But anyway,
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: so that's where we love Time season three. That's my recommendation.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: This is available on Amazon Prime Video. By the way,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: very good.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: I'm still I still have it on my list to
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: pick it up and read, so I'm super stoked to
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: get into that. Cool all right, So my recommendation is
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: a record store. First of all, go support your local
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: record stores. Yeah, they're cool places in general. This is
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: a local record place that I thought was really great.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: It's in Denver, Colorado, and it is called Wax Tracks Records.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: So apparently I brought this up to some locals and
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: they say that this place is an institution, and it
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: feels like it because I walked in and it had
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: one of the best selections of a record store I've
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: ever seen.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: Wow, it was.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: So fun, so good to kind of explore. I didn't
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: have a lot of time to explore, unfortunately, but I
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: got to go through and you know, the folks there
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: were very kind, they were very helpful. I was able
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: to look through a lot of records. They had like
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: a nice indie section, a nice punk section, a really
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: great metal section. The hip hop section was amazing, and
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: so there was some really cool stuff there. And they
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: had a small section for CDs, but it was mostly
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: just records in vinyl. So if you're a vinyl collector,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: this is the place to go. And it was a
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: really really cool spot to spend some time in. And
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: they have a second storefront that was like a used
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: record storefront, which is really cool. So yeah, I didn't
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: get to explore that one a little at all, but
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: I really should have and I wish I did, but
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: I just didn't have the time. But it was a
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: great place and I can't wait to go back the
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: next time I'm there.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: Did you buy any records?
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, I bought two records. I bought two records I
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: didn't have that I really loved. I got Archers of
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: Loaf Icky Metal, which is like an indie record from
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: like nineteen ninety four, like a weird alternative indie record.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: You recommend to this once, actually, I think, or at
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: least the band I remember, Arches of Loaf.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, Arches of Loaf, Yeah, go listen to them. And
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: then the other one I got was a drug Church
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: record that I really liked called Cheer Okay that I
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: didn't have, which is really cool, and it's a color vinyl.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: It's a black, red and cream color striped like it
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: looks like a Neapolitan, but like an evil Neapolitan.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: Cool cool, Yeah, it was really good, all right, very good.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: So a Wheel of Time TV show on Amazon Prime.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: And then wax Trax Records the Denver Record store tracks
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: is spelled tr Ax in case you are trying to
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: look it up. That would probably help you find it
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: a little more easily. But again, I appreciate you all
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: for being here. And then we ran a little long
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: thank you for hanging with us. Is there anything that
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: I am missing or you'd like to add before we
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: wrap up? Nope, not today. All right, This is Abraham,
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: this is Shane. We're out.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: See ya.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why we do what we do.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: You can learn more this and other episodes by going
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: to ww D w w.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: D podcast dot com.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.