Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / 3.9 Seconds: The Prosecution of Sergeant Ben Bryant | Paul Fownes

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3.9 Seconds: The Prosecution of Sergeant Ben Bryant | Paul Fownes · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Approach production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shann. The prosecution of a New South Wales police officer,
0:20
Speaker 2: Sergeant ben Bryant, over the death of a sixteen year
0:23
Speaker 2: old Indigenous boy, Jay Wright, is sending shock waves through
0:27
Speaker 2: police and ordinary folk to understand the ramifications of what
0:31
Speaker 2: is going on.
0:32
Speaker 3: A police officer involved in efforts to catch a teenage
0:35
Speaker 3: motorbike rider learned his fate after being convicted over the crash.
0:39
Speaker 3: Sergeant Benedic Bryant had used his unmarked police car to
0:43
Speaker 3: block the Aboriginal team.
0:46
Speaker 2: Sergeant Bryant was recently sentenced to a two year intensive
0:49
Speaker 2: corrections order which included five hundred hours of community service
0:53
Speaker 2: and a three year.
0:54
Speaker 1: Disqualification from driving.
0:56
Speaker 2: The charge was serious dangerous driving causing death.
1:00
Speaker 3: Bryant sentenced to two year intensive corrections order, no jail time.
1:05
Speaker 3: Police Association of New South Wales calls verdict a grave
1:08
Speaker 3: injustice and Warren's officers will think twice before acting.
1:14
Speaker 1: Here are the circumstances.
1:16
Speaker 2: On February nineteen, twenty twenty two, Sergeant Bryant was on
1:19
Speaker 2: duty when right with others stole vehicles after a series
1:23
Speaker 2: of home invasions in Sydney.
1:25
Speaker 4: Police were following after he allegedly stole a trail bike
1:28
Speaker 4: at Sergeant Bryant was in an unmarked police car at
1:31
Speaker 4: the time was called to assist, but was specifically told
1:34
Speaker 4: not to pursue the bike.
1:37
Speaker 2: Wright was riding a stolen trail bike when he tried
1:40
Speaker 2: to evade police in that process, That's a very complex
1:43
Speaker 2: set of circumstances. He collided with Sergeant Bryan's vehicle and
1:47
Speaker 2: later died from his injuries. Today, I want to go
1:51
Speaker 2: through the detailed circumstances of what went on and let
1:54
Speaker 2: you decide whether Sergeant Bryant deserved to be prosecuted and
1:58
Speaker 2: found guilty.
1:59
Speaker 5: Senior police Commander's privately worn government The Bryant conviction will
2:04
Speaker 5: have a Chile effect on pursued decisions across the state.
2:10
Speaker 2: Retired Chief Inspector Paul Founds has been helping Sergeant Bryant
2:13
Speaker 2: to raise funds for his defense and now his appeal,
2:16
Speaker 2: and Paul's agreed to discuss what happened on that tragic
2:19
Speaker 2: warning and what it means for the community.
2:22
Speaker 1: Get a Paul, Hello, how are you very good? Mate?
2:29
Speaker 1: Thank you for talking to U. Stone.
2:31
Speaker 2: Thank you for supporting your former colleague. What's your off
2:34
Speaker 2: the cuff reaction to what happened and the way that
2:38
Speaker 2: Sergeant Bryant was dealt with.
2:41
Speaker 5: Oh look, Adam, this is a lengthy story, but Benedict
2:45
Speaker 5: is a sergeant at South Sydney Command, which encompasses Redfern,
2:50
Speaker 5: where I worked with him for a couple of years.
2:54
Speaker 1: There.
2:55
Speaker 5: Ben's one of these professional cops that you would want
2:58
Speaker 5: in your times of trouble. On this particular day, Ben
3:02
Speaker 5: was working out of Redford Police Station, which was all
3:04
Speaker 5: of eight hundred meters away from where this incident was
3:09
Speaker 5: panning out. On the day that this happened, Jai was
3:13
Speaker 5: part of a criminal group. They were targeting high performance
3:18
Speaker 5: vehicles on the morning of this day within the Eastern
3:21
Speaker 5: suburbs of Sydney, an affluent area. On this morning they
3:26
Speaker 5: broke into two houses whilst armed with machetes and balaclavas,
3:31
Speaker 5: and they stole two performance vehicles. After the theft of
3:34
Speaker 5: these two vehicles, they made their way to the inner
3:37
Speaker 5: west of Sydney where a trailbike was also stolen. So
3:43
Speaker 5: in total, three vehicles were stolen. It just so happened
3:46
Speaker 5: that a plane clothes. Constables from Newtown had spotted these
3:52
Speaker 5: vehicles traveling in their area. They followed them into a backstreet.
3:56
Speaker 5: They managed to apprehend one of the offenders as they
3:59
Speaker 5: got out of one of the stolen vehicles, and Ji,
4:03
Speaker 5: who was wearing a helmet, was unknown who he was,
4:06
Speaker 5: how old he was.
4:08
Speaker 1: He was on the trail bike.
4:09
Speaker 5: He saw one of the co offenders get arrested and
4:12
Speaker 5: he realized that the police were closing in. Unbeknown to them,
4:17
Speaker 5: the plane closed. Officers from Newtown were providing information via
4:22
Speaker 5: the police radio which was bringing police from all areas into.
4:26
Speaker 1: That specific area.
4:28
Speaker 5: These people were targets of a strike force that was
4:32
Speaker 5: called Strike Force Sweetenen which continues today, and this task
4:38
Speaker 5: force was set up to target these people carrying out
4:41
Speaker 5: aggravated home invasions where some of the vehicles were being
4:45
Speaker 5: used by organized criminals. You may have heard of these
4:48
Speaker 5: drive by shootings, fire bombings that are going on within Sydney. Well,
4:52
Speaker 5: some of these vehicles are being used for that purpose.
4:56
Speaker 5: So when this came up, it was obviously of interest
5:00
Speaker 5: and there was a response which was commensurate with type
5:04
Speaker 5: of crime.
5:05
Speaker 1: Serious. Ben had heard that at.
5:07
Speaker 5: The police station with a young constable that he was
5:10
Speaker 5: working with, and he, along with other higher patrol units
5:15
Speaker 5: had moved into that area to try and affect the
5:18
Speaker 5: arrest and to support the other police that had arrested
5:21
Speaker 5: another mail. When Ji came out of a side street,
5:25
Speaker 5: he sought one or two higher patrol vehicles that were
5:29
Speaker 5: in that side street of Henderson Road. Henderson Road runs
5:33
Speaker 5: east and west. As Ji rode his bike, he turned
5:38
Speaker 5: right into Henderson Road and one of the high patrol
5:41
Speaker 5: vehicles saw him heading towards him.
5:44
Speaker 1: At that point, Gi diverged to.
5:46
Speaker 5: His left and into a bike lane, which is a
5:49
Speaker 5: separated bike lane from mainstream traffic.
5:53
Speaker 1: He started to head east.
5:55
Speaker 5: At that point in time, Benedict Sergeant Bryant, traveled the
5:58
Speaker 5: eight hundred meters from his police station in an unmarked
6:02
Speaker 5: police vehicle. He turned into Henderson Road at the same
6:06
Speaker 5: time Ji was moving east on.
6:09
Speaker 1: Henderson Road bike lane.
6:11
Speaker 5: Now Henderson Road dissects with Davy Road, which is where
6:16
Speaker 5: the bike lane ceases. The bike lane at the very
6:20
Speaker 5: eastern end has a barrier bollards and it has turning
6:26
Speaker 5: arrows which indicates to push bike riders that they must
6:29
Speaker 5: turn left. Benedict had moved to a position coming to
6:34
Speaker 5: a halt about fifteen meters east of that bike lane,
6:39
Speaker 5: so quite a considerable distance.
6:42
Speaker 1: He's in the intersection.
6:43
Speaker 5: Now he's moved from the intersection of Henderson Davy into
6:47
Speaker 5: Davy proper, which is where the bike lane comes to
6:51
Speaker 5: a halt.
6:52
Speaker 1: So it's at that point in time.
6:55
Speaker 5: Gi is moving at approximately sixty eight kilometers an hour,
6:59
Speaker 5: well above the speed limit of a bike lane, which
7:03
Speaker 5: is forty was less than that as well, but well
7:07
Speaker 5: above the prevailing speed limit for pushbikes. He was moving
7:11
Speaker 5: east to speed. Sergeant Brian had turned right into Davy.
7:15
Speaker 5: He had his view slightly obscured for a moment in
7:20
Speaker 5: time by another unmarked car that had also stopped some
7:24
Speaker 5: distance away from the end of the bike lane. So
7:28
Speaker 5: we are talking fifteen meters away from the end of
7:32
Speaker 5: that bike lane. So now Benedict didn't have his lights
7:36
Speaker 5: or sirens on, which was not necessary, and that was
7:40
Speaker 5: an issue raised by the judge. In an operational environment,
7:44
Speaker 5: the police are exempt from using their lights and sirens
7:48
Speaker 5: in certain circumstances, and in my view that was quite
7:52
Speaker 5: reasonable for what ben did by not activating lights and sirens.
7:56
Speaker 5: He wasn't in pursuit. He was turning up to an
7:59
Speaker 5: operational environment to see that if he could affect the
8:03
Speaker 5: arrest of Jai. What had happened during this is a
8:07
Speaker 5: VKG supervisor, which is a radio room of the New
8:11
Speaker 5: South Whiles Police. He had given a direction for the
8:15
Speaker 5: motorbike to not be pursued, and the motorbike was not pursued.
8:20
Speaker 5: It's a different thing turning up to the scene of
8:23
Speaker 5: an operational dynamic environment to actually pursuing, which is chasing
8:29
Speaker 5: the bike. So the bike was not being chased, but
8:32
Speaker 5: Benedict was turning up to the scene of where that
8:35
Speaker 5: bike had been seen and reported. That is quite lawful
8:40
Speaker 5: and quite proper for police to do that. So would
8:44
Speaker 5: we call this an intercept rather than a pursuit? It
8:48
Speaker 5: was turning up. I wouldn't even call it an interception.
8:51
Speaker 5: I would call it turning up to an operational environment
8:55
Speaker 5: to see if an opportunity arose to affect an arrest.
9:00
Speaker 5: So a lot of different things can happen with motorbike riders.
9:04
Speaker 5: They can come off their bike, they can get caught
9:07
Speaker 5: up in traffic on that bike. They can elect to
9:10
Speaker 5: the camp from that bike into an environment they feel
9:13
Speaker 5: they can escape the police, or they can try and
9:17
Speaker 5: ride the bike away from that immediate scene, which is
9:20
Speaker 5: what Gi tried to do. But Benedict did not have
9:24
Speaker 5: the opportunity to understand what Ji was intending.
9:28
Speaker 1: So when Benedict turned up.
9:30
Speaker 5: Fifteen meters away from the bike lane where it terminated,
9:34
Speaker 5: he didn't know whether Gi would make that left hand turn,
9:38
Speaker 5: which push bikes do do. He was familiar with the
9:40
Speaker 5: bike lane and he knew it terminated, and he knew
9:44
Speaker 5: that bikes had to turn left into another environment. So
9:50
Speaker 5: when ben was coming to a halt, he was He
9:53
Speaker 5: traveled all of three point nine seconds of distance from
9:57
Speaker 5: the time that he turned from Henderson Road into Davy Road.
10:02
Speaker 5: It was all of three point nine seconds. So when
10:05
Speaker 5: people are listening to that, I'd like them to look
10:07
Speaker 5: at their watch and look at basically four seconds, that's
10:11
Speaker 5: how much time Benedict had to make decisions.
10:15
Speaker 1: On what to do and how Jie was going to
10:18
Speaker 1: ride that bike.
10:20
Speaker 5: As it turned out, as Benedict was coming to a halt,
10:23
Speaker 5: Gi had made the decision to go over the barrier
10:28
Speaker 5: where there are bollards indicating the end of the bike lane,
10:32
Speaker 5: and he went airborne. Airborne to the point that he
10:36
Speaker 5: traveled fifteen meters. As Ben was coming to a halt,
10:41
Speaker 5: he was airborne and the front of his motorbike collided
10:46
Speaker 5: with the police figle and then Gi followed. My understanding
10:50
Speaker 5: is Jai separated slightly from the motorbike, so the motorbike
10:54
Speaker 5: he had lost control of that bike airborne and then
10:58
Speaker 5: the bike came into collision with the police vehicle that
11:02
Speaker 5: was coming to a halt, nearly stopped. It stopped fraction
11:06
Speaker 5: seconds after that collision, and.
11:11
Speaker 2: Jay was wearing a helmet, but it wasn't strapped on,
11:14
Speaker 2: I believe, which was a fatal error.
11:17
Speaker 5: Well I don't know if that was a fatal error,
11:19
Speaker 5: but it certainly impacted his survivability of the impact. Ben
11:24
Speaker 5: obviously provided first aid and call for the other emergency
11:28
Speaker 5: services to attend, which is what happened post the collision.
11:35
Speaker 1: We're talking seconds. We're talking a.
11:37
Speaker 5: Short period of time from Redford Police Station to Davy
11:41
Speaker 5: Road or Henderson Road, and we're talking three point nine
11:44
Speaker 5: seconds from Henderson Road to where the collision happened, So
11:49
Speaker 5: we're talking very very short periods of time.
11:53
Speaker 2: So that sets it out very clearly what happened now
11:57
Speaker 2: there's no mystery with this. The independent oversight body in
12:01
Speaker 2: New South Wales Law Enforcement Conduct Commission LACK had a
12:05
Speaker 2: look at this and said there was no case to answer.
12:08
Speaker 1: The DPP, I think it's called.
12:10
Speaker 2: Group six, which prosecutes police almost exclusively. They had a
12:14
Speaker 2: look at it this and said no case to answer.
12:17
Speaker 2: How did we get from that position which was pretty unequivocal,
12:21
Speaker 2: to one where the DPP reversed itself and decided to
12:26
Speaker 2: prosecute Sergeant Briant.
12:28
Speaker 1: That's a very good question.
12:30
Speaker 5: So the day before this matter went statute barred, that's
12:35
Speaker 5: when the DPP took out the charges, or they lay
12:39
Speaker 5: the charges themselves one day prior to statute bard So
12:44
Speaker 5: the matter had gone through the normal cause PRASH Investigation
12:49
Speaker 5: had prepared a comprehensive brief. That brief was overseen by
12:55
Speaker 5: those bodies that you mentioned. It went through the Police
12:59
Speaker 5: Department in internal affairs and it was forwarded to the
13:03
Speaker 5: DPP for reviewers and body. They came back with an
13:07
Speaker 5: opinion that there was no case to answer, and as
13:11
Speaker 5: happens when there is a fatality, the matter eventually went
13:16
Speaker 5: to the coroner's court. Ben was advised that there were
13:21
Speaker 5: no charges pending and he had no case to answer.
13:25
Speaker 1: It then went to coroners.
13:26
Speaker 5: The coroner, which is quite incredible. She had, My understanding
13:31
Speaker 5: was she had some involvement with Northern Territory and she
13:35
Speaker 5: was on a mission to reduce or stop aboriginal deaths
13:39
Speaker 5: in custody. On the day of the first day of
13:43
Speaker 5: the coroner's matter, she went and joined family and friends
13:48
Speaker 5: of Jai outside the court and partook in a smoking ceremony,
13:54
Speaker 5: which in itself was incredible given that it should be.
13:58
Speaker 5: This matter was supposed to be independent. The matter went
14:02
Speaker 5: I think it was one day of commencing the hearing
14:06
Speaker 5: into the matter, and as we saw it was a
14:08
Speaker 5: complex two week trial. So one day into the coroner's
14:11
Speaker 5: matter and it was adjourned and referred back to the
14:15
Speaker 5: DPP with recommendations of charges.
14:19
Speaker 2: Can I stop you there for a minute, Paul, Let
14:22
Speaker 2: me just underline what's gone on here. The law is
14:25
Speaker 2: supposed to be blind. The coroner is part of our
14:29
Speaker 2: legal apparatus in New South Wales and supposed to be impartial,
14:35
Speaker 2: judge the facts and not have a personal connection to
14:39
Speaker 2: either side. And what you're saying is the coroner publicly
14:43
Speaker 2: sided with the family of the deceased partook in the
14:47
Speaker 2: cultural ceremony. I would say that is a glaring conflict
14:51
Speaker 2: of interest in any average person's estimation.
14:56
Speaker 5: Well, I would agree with you, and I've noticed people
15:00
Speaker 5: have mentioned why does the word indigenous for Aboriginal brought up?
15:06
Speaker 5: Unfortunately this was brought up by the legal system and
15:10
Speaker 5: by the family and friends of JOI. This has been
15:14
Speaker 5: waived in the face of the court, the process, the
15:18
Speaker 5: DPP for the entire duration of this matter. So he
15:26
Speaker 5: gets charged and he elects to have a judge only trial.
15:31
Speaker 5: I note that he was not a member of the
15:33
Speaker 5: New South Wales Police Association therefore did not qualify for
15:36
Speaker 5: financial support in his legal matters.
15:40
Speaker 2: He took the option of a judge only. I guess
15:43
Speaker 2: because that was an economic decision. Do you think a
15:45
Speaker 2: jury would have found the same way. I mean, I'm
15:48
Speaker 2: ahead of ourselves here, but he certainly was in a
15:50
Speaker 2: parlous position without financial support.
15:53
Speaker 5: Well, he has a young family, he has a mother
15:56
Speaker 5: in law with advanced dementia, so economically that.
15:59
Speaker 1: Was a major consideration.
16:01
Speaker 5: Unfortunately for Benedict, he had engaged a barrister and as
16:08
Speaker 5: the trial approached that barrister was offered the position of
16:13
Speaker 5: a judge of the district court, and he took that
16:16
Speaker 5: position and left Ben unfortunately having to seek out an
16:20
Speaker 5: alternate barrister. The decision to nominate a judge only trial
16:26
Speaker 5: was exactly economical, because we all know the justice system
16:32
Speaker 5: can be delayed, and in a jury trial, a lot
16:35
Speaker 5: of things can go wrong, mistrial jurors get sick, and
16:39
Speaker 5: the whole process can start again, or it can be
16:42
Speaker 5: delayed because of issues raised during a trial. And Ben
16:47
Speaker 5: just could not afford the option of a jury trial
16:51
Speaker 5: on the basis of that, so he went that judge
16:54
Speaker 5: only trial.
16:55
Speaker 1: In my opinion and the opinion of many.
16:57
Speaker 5: Legal practitioners, there is no way a jury would have
17:02
Speaker 5: found Benedict guilty, and that come from highly reliable sources.
17:08
Speaker 1: Well, I agree with you.
17:09
Speaker 2: I think generally speaking, juries do side with police, and
17:13
Speaker 2: particularly when you look at the profile of the victim,
17:16
Speaker 2: and this is a tragedy for that fam. I'm not
17:18
Speaker 2: going to minimize the impact on that family. But let's
17:21
Speaker 2: also step back for a moment. Had things been different
17:25
Speaker 2: and Jai was apprehended and arrested in charge, what would
17:28
Speaker 2: he have been facing, what sort of charges would he
17:30
Speaker 2: have been facing.
17:31
Speaker 5: Well, if found guilty of aggravated break and enner whilst armed.
17:37
Speaker 5: I guess there's a general sense in the community that
17:41
Speaker 5: juveniles committing crimes are certainly not receiving the type of
17:47
Speaker 5: sentencing that the community would expect. So we probably are
17:52
Speaker 5: talking a minimal sentence of I would suspect a year
17:57
Speaker 5: or so behind bars if that, because obviously circumstances of
18:02
Speaker 5: that child's background would play usignificant role, as it did
18:06
Speaker 5: during the course of the trial, and that minimizes the
18:11
Speaker 5: consequence unfortunately.
18:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another whole public debate. But you know, basically,
18:18
Speaker 2: and I don't want to sensationalize this, but he's part
18:20
Speaker 2: of a group that's burst into homes with a machete,
18:24
Speaker 2: threatened the occupants, stolen their vehicles, taken off, riding at
18:30
Speaker 2: speed on a vehicle that's not his. I mean, he's
18:32
Speaker 2: got a bunch of charges there. And it's the funny
18:35
Speaker 2: thing is I think that's all being minimized in this process.
18:38
Speaker 2: It might not be political this moment, but the whole
18:42
Speaker 2: carriage of this matter seems to be building upon a
18:47
Speaker 2: political debate, discussion, argument, brawl if you like, between indigenous
18:52
Speaker 2: community and their supporters, and.
18:54
Speaker 1: The idea that there is a long and.
18:57
Speaker 2: Awful history of interaction between New South Wales police and
19:01
Speaker 2: the Indigenous community in Redfern. I personally don't think that
19:05
Speaker 2: is any place in an individual prosecution.
19:09
Speaker 1: Adam, You're one hundred percent right.
19:12
Speaker 5: I can tell you this having been in the court
19:15
Speaker 5: and listen to much of the hearing and the judge's
19:20
Speaker 5: remarks for sentencing. All of what happened on this day
19:26
Speaker 5: happened because of serious crimes that happened that morning. And
19:31
Speaker 5: I'm talking serious crimes. Your listeners to this podcast, I'd
19:36
Speaker 5: like them to think they're at home in bed, children, families,
19:41
Speaker 5: and people have broken in Balaclaver's machetes going for their property,
19:47
Speaker 5: their performance vehicles to be handed on, likely to organize crime,
19:53
Speaker 5: to commit even more serious crimes. The police respond as
19:58
Speaker 5: the community would expect, and they would ninety nine point
20:01
Speaker 5: nine percent of the community would expect the police to
20:04
Speaker 5: do everything they can to make them safe and to
20:07
Speaker 5: hold those people accountable. But all of that was excluded
20:11
Speaker 5: from the trial. That was minimized to a point that
20:14
Speaker 5: it wasn't even mentioned. It was all focused on strictly
20:17
Speaker 5: three point nine seconds of response by Sergeant Bryant.
20:21
Speaker 1: That was it.
20:23
Speaker 5: And that's why I could not sit back and allow
20:27
Speaker 5: this to take place and not support the police and
20:30
Speaker 5: Sergeant Bryant. Because I've been involved in many pursuits, any
20:34
Speaker 5: high speed incidents, many overviews of crashes. I've done all
20:39
Speaker 5: this and I've never seen a process like this in
20:43
Speaker 5: thirty six years of policing, which is a reasonable period
20:46
Speaker 5: of time to be able to make a judgment. And
20:50
Speaker 5: to me, the judge misconstrued a lot of the evidence
20:54
Speaker 5: and removed a lot of the culpability by Jai towards
20:59
Speaker 5: his death.
21:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got to agree with you there. I mean,
21:02
Speaker 2: normally I'll be saying, oh, that's a pretty piece of lawyering.
21:06
Speaker 2: But do you think the outcome was in a sense
21:09
Speaker 2: already assured there was a political process underway, and that,
21:13
Speaker 2: as you say, the judge did not. I don't want
21:16
Speaker 2: to fall in the contempt here, but how could you
21:18
Speaker 2: misconstrue the evidence so badly as to get to a
21:22
Speaker 2: guilty verdict in a situation where it just doesn't seem warranted.
21:27
Speaker 5: The indigenous supporters of Jibe were all wearing his face
21:30
Speaker 5: and aboriginal colors every day of the trial, draping aboriginal
21:33
Speaker 5: flags over banisters. That was inside the court, so there
21:37
Speaker 5: was no doubting the effort to try and push the
21:40
Speaker 5: aboriginality of the deceased. The judge, in my opinion, drew
21:45
Speaker 5: conclusions and came up with statements like illegal pursuits, roadblocks,
21:51
Speaker 5: an illegal pursuit. There's no such thing as an illegal pursuit,
21:55
Speaker 5: and at no stage was being ever in a pursuit.
21:57
Speaker 5: As we discussed earlier, it was a response to a
22:01
Speaker 5: dynamic operational environment, and there's no suggestion what so however
22:05
Speaker 5: that Ben attempted, sought to pursue. He turned up to
22:09
Speaker 5: a scene in the effort to try and affect an
22:12
Speaker 5: arrest if that opportunity arose, But the judge didn't see
22:16
Speaker 5: it that way. The judge made a particular reference that
22:18
Speaker 5: he'd carried out a roadblock. In my view of operational policing,
22:23
Speaker 5: that was not the case. That was simply then turning
22:25
Speaker 5: up at a time when Ji was trying to affect
22:29
Speaker 5: his escape, and it was a fateful situation, an accident
22:33
Speaker 5: in the true sense of the word, nothing more, no intention.
22:37
Speaker 5: The judge accepted that there was error in judgment because
22:40
Speaker 5: Benedict didn't think that that bike would hit that barrier
22:43
Speaker 5: and go airborne. And I think most reasonable people would
22:46
Speaker 5: have assumed that that the requirement is that bike lane terminates,
22:51
Speaker 5: you turn left. If you go airborne, then you lose control.
22:55
Speaker 5: But none of that was taken into account by the judge.
22:59
Speaker 5: She saw it as well, Jie was on a trailbike,
23:01
Speaker 5: and as a trailbike he can carry out a mine
23:05
Speaker 5: over that trial bikes are designed to do, without taking
23:09
Speaker 5: into account that Joe had minimal experience on a trial bike.
23:13
Speaker 5: Coming airborne, Well, you've got to be a pretty good
23:14
Speaker 5: rider to be able to recover from that. And it
23:17
Speaker 5: just so happened that fifteen meters away a police car
23:20
Speaker 5: turning up to the scene arrives, not with any intention
23:24
Speaker 5: of roadblocking, but that's how the judge saw it. And
23:27
Speaker 5: I just felt that the whole thing was a terrible
23:30
Speaker 5: miscarriage of justice towards Benedict. And you know that's why
23:34
Speaker 5: I'm here trying to support him.
23:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as I say, this is all loaded
23:38
Speaker 2: in politics, and I wonder whether the precedents that led
23:44
Speaker 2: to this, this kind of understanding.
23:46
Speaker 1: For instance, TJ.
23:47
Speaker 2: Hickey who died in February two thousand and four, he
23:51
Speaker 2: was on a bicycle near a police officer patrolling. He
23:55
Speaker 2: took off, crashed too, was impaled on a fence and died,
23:58
Speaker 2: and there was a whole big debate about whether police
24:01
Speaker 2: were pursuing him or following him, or harassing him or
24:03
Speaker 2: whatever else. This ultimately led to the two thousand and
24:07
Speaker 2: four Redford riots. Do you think this sort of overshadows
24:10
Speaker 2: this incident at all?
24:13
Speaker 5: I really don't think so. I was there for that
24:16
Speaker 5: other incident as well. I think that there's differences, and
24:20
Speaker 5: the Hickey incident is a chapter which is a really
24:24
Speaker 5: regrettable chapter. And once again there the police were simply
24:27
Speaker 5: doing their job. There was a lot of bag snatches
24:30
Speaker 5: and that type of still from person offenses carrying on
24:33
Speaker 5: around Redfern at that time, but we're talking about a
24:37
Speaker 5: more serious regime of crime.
24:40
Speaker 1: The Joy was involved in.
24:41
Speaker 5: What you might find interesting is the DPP lead barrister
24:46
Speaker 5: prosecutor was imported. He was the barrister that was responsible
24:51
Speaker 5: for the prosecution of Zach Rolf. Zach Rolf was a
24:56
Speaker 5: police officer in the Northern territory involved in the death
24:59
Speaker 5: of an Aboriginal that was wanted in that jurisdiction. So
25:04
Speaker 5: it was quite pure curious that the DPP brought in
25:07
Speaker 5: a heavy hitter that had been there done that for
25:11
Speaker 5: a similar type, not a similar offense, but an offense
25:14
Speaker 5: where a police officer was involved in the death of
25:16
Speaker 5: an Aboriginal. That was a curious step by the DPP
25:20
Speaker 5: to do that. He that's fascinating.
25:22
Speaker 2: In the case of the Hickey matter, those riots were heenus.
25:26
Speaker 2: I think they were forty two police were injured, hit
25:29
Speaker 2: by bricks, molotov cocktails and a whole thing. What was
25:32
Speaker 2: the relationship between police and the residents and the Indigenous
25:36
Speaker 2: residents of Redfern like after that you were there a
25:38
Speaker 2: long time, what was that relationship like?
25:42
Speaker 5: The relationship between police and the Aboriginal community at Redfern
25:47
Speaker 5: is well documented and I would say that there was
25:51
Speaker 5: a concerted effort by the New South Wales Police Force
25:54
Speaker 5: government and leadership within the community to mend that relationship.
25:59
Speaker 5: And I was at Redfern for a couple of years
26:01
Speaker 5: there as a leader under a superintendent there. I can't
26:05
Speaker 5: tell you the amount of work that was done by
26:08
Speaker 5: all of those parties to heal those wounds. You've got
26:12
Speaker 5: to understand that Redfern, over many years, was a very
26:16
Speaker 5: destitute area and the block as it was known, was
26:20
Speaker 5: an area where drug use was horrific. Heroin was embedded
26:26
Speaker 5: in the community, the welfare of children was secondary to
26:30
Speaker 5: drug use and to dysfunctional families, and the police were
26:34
Speaker 5: used to try and manage what was an unmanageable situation.
26:38
Speaker 5: Government departments failed. The police were used as a resort
26:42
Speaker 5: to try and maintain safety inner city area, and that
26:47
Speaker 5: often brought clashes because the crime was ongoing and there
26:52
Speaker 5: were some serious criminals within that community intent on their
26:57
Speaker 5: own mischievous ways, and the police were really there to
27:02
Speaker 5: manage that community and a lower a very low socioeconomic
27:06
Speaker 5: community in the Waterloo area. You know, it was ongoing
27:10
Speaker 5: the work that the police did. I know that there'll
27:13
Speaker 5: be debate on this statement, but they did a fantastic
27:16
Speaker 5: job in extremely difficult circumstances to manage overdoses, crime of
27:22
Speaker 5: a significant level, stabbings, murders, overdoses, dealing with the very
27:28
Speaker 5: lowest of the community. And you know, as we see
27:31
Speaker 5: quite often, you know, the police are often the last
27:34
Speaker 5: resort and that's and they were. But the Redfern and
27:38
Speaker 5: Waterloo area now has changed. You'll see that they're a
27:41
Speaker 5: protest at the moment. Where many Indigenous families lived, they
27:45
Speaker 5: have been relocated to other areas in Sydney and the
27:49
Speaker 5: Waterloo area is undergoing a significant change. The block area
27:55
Speaker 5: underwent significant changes and that brought with it stability, peace
28:00
Speaker 5: and law and order is not as significant an issue
28:04
Speaker 5: these days.
28:05
Speaker 2: And Sergeant Bryant had worked in Redferns since two thousand
28:08
Speaker 2: and eight.
28:09
Speaker 1: Had he had any other issues?
28:10
Speaker 2: Was there any track record with the community that people
28:13
Speaker 2: should be aware of.
28:15
Speaker 5: He is a model policeman in every sense of the word.
28:20
Speaker 5: I noticed when Ben was charged. Redfern used to have
28:23
Speaker 5: some very high profile aclos and they are Aboriginal. The
28:27
Speaker 5: aison officers are. They are Aboriginal people connected to that community.
28:33
Speaker 5: And I noticed statements of support towards Ben. Such was
28:37
Speaker 5: his reputation as a very good, balanced police officer that
28:42
Speaker 5: was there to help everybody, didn't matter about color of skin, backgrounds.
28:46
Speaker 5: He was a sort of bloke that would be there
28:48
Speaker 5: to help anyone and in my opinion, was well thought
28:51
Speaker 5: of by leadership of the community and within the community themselves.
28:55
Speaker 5: So no, he was a policeman's policeman. Yeah, that's a
29:01
Speaker 5: good way of putting it.
29:02
Speaker 2: And I can't help but feel when I read the
29:04
Speaker 2: headline from I guess the Fairfax Press, the ABC terms
29:10
Speaker 2: being is like a finally accountability. Historic conviction brings accountability.
29:17
Speaker 2: Finally an Indigenous person who has died during a police
29:19
Speaker 2: operation has been recognized and an officer convicted. I mean,
29:24
Speaker 2: I thought, when you go into court charged with an offense,
29:27
Speaker 2: the elements of the offense have to be proved, your
29:30
Speaker 2: culpability beyond reasonable data established, And it seems to me
29:34
Speaker 2: that the political setting seemed to be an extra element
29:39
Speaker 2: to this, almost sitting on the bench.
29:41
Speaker 5: Look you said that, not me, but I can say this.
29:46
Speaker 5: The DPP salivated at the fact that a police officer
29:51
Speaker 5: was convicted for an Aboriginal death in custody. The actual
29:55
Speaker 5: term aboriginal death in custody in itself is highly controversial
30:00
Speaker 5: because when an Aboriginal person is fleeing police, there is
30:04
Speaker 5: no way the word custody is relevant. When they're not arrested,
30:09
Speaker 5: they're free to do what they choose to do. And
30:12
Speaker 5: yet when the police move in to try and affect
30:15
Speaker 5: an arrest that's viewed by law as an average or
30:19
Speaker 5: death and custody. And I remember when I was working
30:21
Speaker 5: at Redfern, police would go to a unit in a
30:25
Speaker 5: high rise block and it would scare the hell out
30:28
Speaker 5: of me that we knew that a serious aboriginal or
30:32
Speaker 5: background offender would be in that unit, and we knew
30:36
Speaker 5: that he might choose to jump from a seven story
30:40
Speaker 5: balcony to a balcony below. And you can understand the
30:44
Speaker 5: risk that goes with that if I'm the senior police
30:47
Speaker 5: officer authorizing that because we need to arrest a person
30:51
Speaker 5: putting the community at risk. This judgment, if you look
30:55
Speaker 5: at it, could have some weight towards a person like
30:58
Speaker 5: me in a position of authority allowing police to force
31:03
Speaker 5: century into a unit where we know a violent offender
31:07
Speaker 5: is of Aboriginal background.
31:09
Speaker 1: If that person chooses to jump.
31:10
Speaker 5: From that balcony to the one below, which happens and
31:15
Speaker 5: happened during my time, if he loses his grip and
31:19
Speaker 5: falls to the roadway and dies, am I accountable for that?
31:24
Speaker 1: Well, under this precedent, you may well.
31:26
Speaker 2: Be by this out That's right, And I think it's
31:29
Speaker 2: very important you make this distinction here, very important you
31:32
Speaker 2: make this distinction Paul, because he wasn't in custody. There
31:35
Speaker 2: was a series of decisions that began with his decision
31:39
Speaker 2: to be involved in the home evasions, that invasions to
31:42
Speaker 2: steal the vehicle, take off on the motorbike, and he
31:45
Speaker 2: sees police. He makes decisions which led to his death.
31:48
Speaker 2: And I wonder whether if the vehicle that he's struck
31:52
Speaker 2: was a civilian, would there be any question of dangerous
31:55
Speaker 2: driving charges.
31:57
Speaker 5: I think not, absolutely not, because the judge connected a
32:04
Speaker 5: pursuit which didn't happen to a roadblock that didn't happen,
32:08
Speaker 5: but that was perceived because he was a police officer
32:11
Speaker 5: arriving at the scene and whilst the vehicle was coming
32:15
Speaker 5: to a halted ten kilometers down to zero, that was
32:19
Speaker 5: viewed externally as an informal roadblock. If that was a
32:24
Speaker 5: member of the public, a roadblock doesn't come into it,
32:26
Speaker 5: and therefore there is no legal action taken against the
32:30
Speaker 5: driver of that vehicle. And the judge also made a
32:33
Speaker 5: point that because Ben turned right from Henderson Road, partially
32:39
Speaker 5: within a right turn arrow lane, partially from a through lane,
32:44
Speaker 5: that that somehow was a contribution towards his dangerous driving
32:48
Speaker 5: of three point nine seconds.
32:51
Speaker 1: Unbelievable. It just you can't make this sort of stuff up.
32:55
Speaker 5: To your question, there is no doubt that a member
32:58
Speaker 5: of the public would not have been charged.
33:02
Speaker 2: And yet here a police officer is facing the instruction
33:05
Speaker 2: of his career, his livelihood, his reputation. What's it all for?
33:10
Speaker 2: What's it all for? I note I give the family
33:13
Speaker 2: of the deceased one piece of credit that they did
33:16
Speaker 2: not want to see Sergeant Bryan go to jail, but
33:19
Speaker 2: they did echo this broader point about accountability of police
33:24
Speaker 2: in these circumstances and changing behavior and so forth. I mean,
33:28
Speaker 2: I wonder whether would he have done anything differently in
33:32
Speaker 2: a hundred other circumstances of a similar nature. What were
33:36
Speaker 2: his options, even with the benefit of hindsight. To me,
33:41
Speaker 2: he would not have.
33:42
Speaker 5: Done anything differently if it happened again, and this had
33:45
Speaker 5: he have not been charged, I have no doubt that
33:49
Speaker 5: he would do the same thing again. And I can
33:51
Speaker 5: say this that in my career I was a pretty
33:54
Speaker 5: dynamic police officer that I like to arrest people that
33:58
Speaker 5: did the wrong thing by the community. I was involved
34:00
Speaker 5: in numerous high speed pursuits, high risk pursuits. Whilst nobody
34:04
Speaker 5: died on my watch during my incidents, you know, a
34:07
Speaker 5: lot of at risk things happened. And that's the nature
34:10
Speaker 5: of dynamic policing environments. You know, every time those police
34:16
Speaker 5: turn up to a job, they don't know what they're
34:18
Speaker 5: going to confront. They're making decisions in seconds, whether it
34:22
Speaker 5: be pursuit environments or domestic violence or brawl situations. They're
34:28
Speaker 5: reacting to what happens immediately before them. The family of
34:32
Speaker 5: Jai were very decent and decent people, and I know
34:37
Speaker 5: that it's had a massive effect on them, and I
34:39
Speaker 5: feel for them. My only point would be to them,
34:43
Speaker 5: how was JOI out there at three o'clock in the
34:45
Speaker 5: morning as a sixteen year old committing crimes? It was
34:49
Speaker 5: never going to end well when you get involved in
34:51
Speaker 5: those sort of situations. I just feel that it's all
34:55
Speaker 5: well and good to look towards the police and blame them,
34:58
Speaker 5: But what about the family environment? What allowed him to
35:02
Speaker 5: be out at that time with other people committing serious crimes?
35:06
Speaker 1: Correct?
35:07
Speaker 2: And I note that Sergeant Bright's lawyer said if everyone
35:10
Speaker 2: had been at home in bed, none of this would
35:11
Speaker 2: have happened. And that's perfectly true. This is sort of
35:14
Speaker 2: lost in the rush to judge police in all this.
35:17
Speaker 2: I note there is an appeal to come and hopefully
35:20
Speaker 2: that will be a proper review of this conviction. But
35:23
Speaker 2: if it was to stand, Paul, what would be the
35:26
Speaker 2: impact on police conduct from here? What do you think
35:30
Speaker 2: is like going to happen next time there's any potential
35:32
Speaker 2: for a so called pursuit or interception or operation around this,
35:37
Speaker 2: particularly where as you pointed out earlier, the offenses would
35:42
Speaker 2: have brought a jail sense of maybe a year. Will
35:46
Speaker 2: there be a kind of laissez fair approach, just let
35:49
Speaker 2: this play out, we'll catch him later maybe or something.
35:52
Speaker 5: I fear for what this means for police. I don't
35:54
Speaker 5: think the police themselves, certainly not the Police Association, because
35:58
Speaker 5: they have been deadly silent. The ramifications of this are massive.
36:03
Speaker 5: Being in court for the sentence process, Judge Colder reviewed
36:07
Speaker 5: a whole lot of cases dangers driving cases and made
36:11
Speaker 5: particular reference to bits and pieces of different cases.
36:14
Speaker 1: One of the cases of interest was the recent.
36:17
Speaker 5: Case of Christian White, the senior constable that was involved
36:21
Speaker 5: in the tasering of the elderly lady in the nursing Home.
36:24
Speaker 1: Clareolens. Yeah.
36:26
Speaker 5: She made reference to the fact that Senior Constable White
36:30
Speaker 5: had to manage that incident there and then he couldn't
36:33
Speaker 5: walk away from it, so a response from him was needed,
36:37
Speaker 5: and then she went on to say, well, in relation
36:40
Speaker 5: to Benedict Bryant, he wasn't forced to make a decision
36:45
Speaker 5: and that he should have allowed given the fact that
36:48
Speaker 5: a warning about a pursuit not being permitted.
36:51
Speaker 1: Her view was that warning was a sign that.
36:55
Speaker 5: The police officer or Benedict Bryant should have understood was
37:01
Speaker 5: don't get in the path of a fleeing offender. There's
37:04
Speaker 5: a risk that something might happen. So this matter is
37:08
Speaker 5: a precedent. Unless this is overturned, this could have dramatic
37:13
Speaker 5: effects on the public, the way police respond to things,
37:17
Speaker 5: their ability to pursue, their ability to respond, their ability
37:21
Speaker 5: to carry out any risk operation. In my opinion, it's
37:25
Speaker 5: absolutely critical that this gets overturned and the Police Association
37:29
Speaker 5: who have been silent need to get up there now
37:33
Speaker 5: and start protesting at the highest level. And if I
37:36
Speaker 5: was in the job now, I would be making sure
37:40
Speaker 5: that they commenced industrial action because that's the only way
37:43
Speaker 5: government will listen. If I ad my way, police would
37:47
Speaker 5: not be pursuing anyone. Police would not be responding under
37:50
Speaker 5: lights and sirens. We carry out medical escorts where we're
37:54
Speaker 5: transporting doctors and nurses and organs for transplant. I would
37:58
Speaker 5: stop all that because I'd need to be assured of
38:01
Speaker 5: my safety, my welfare and if I if I have
38:05
Speaker 5: a crash, am I going to go to jail? Is
38:09
Speaker 5: my livelihood going to be interrupted? Am I going to
38:12
Speaker 5: lose my job? These are all questions that are right
38:15
Speaker 5: out there at the moment. So yeah, this has got
38:18
Speaker 5: the potential to have massive consequences, and you're right.
38:22
Speaker 2: The Police Association has been definitely silent on this matter.
38:25
Speaker 2: And I do note that they have come to the
38:28
Speaker 2: party with a little bit of funding for Ben Bryant,
38:30
Speaker 2: which is welcome because he's spent like one hundred and
38:33
Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars so far on this.
38:34
Speaker 1: I believe, yep, that's right, And look, yes, you're right.
38:38
Speaker 5: The Association has come to the party with part payment
38:42
Speaker 5: towards his efforts. Benedict has paid out one hundred and
38:47
Speaker 5: fifty one hundred and thirty thousand dollars already. He's looking
38:50
Speaker 5: at at least double that again for the appeal. This
38:54
Speaker 5: time he's taken on the best because he needs the best.
38:58
Speaker 5: And that's why part of my support of Ben is
39:02
Speaker 5: to raise funds because he will be up for a
39:04
Speaker 5: substantial part of that and the Police Association will contribute
39:09
Speaker 5: a significant part as well. But they have to but
39:12
Speaker 5: they need to do more than that. The rank and
39:14
Speaker 5: file of the young police that are in the New
39:16
Speaker 5: Southwole's Police force now have little understanding of the consequence
39:21
Speaker 5: of this outcome as it stands presently, so it's really
39:25
Speaker 5: important that they stand up, show leadership, protect the police.
39:29
Speaker 5: I know in the Northern Territory they have legislation when
39:32
Speaker 5: the police are acting in good faith that they are
39:36
Speaker 5: immune from prosecution and that needs to happen or something
39:39
Speaker 5: like that needs to happen for New Southwoll's police because
39:43
Speaker 5: they are the biggest We are the biggest state. There
39:46
Speaker 5: are dynamic circumstances happening on a daily basis right now
39:50
Speaker 5: as we undertake this podcast, and.
39:52
Speaker 2: As you say, there's barely an officer in this country
39:56
Speaker 2: that would not have been in the same position as
39:59
Speaker 2: Ben Bryight or yourself in those high speed pursuits and
40:02
Speaker 2: all these different things where you're putting this elves in
40:05
Speaker 2: harm's way on behalf of the community.
40:08
Speaker 1: And if people think.
40:10
Speaker 2: That their actions are going to be dissected in slow
40:13
Speaker 2: motion in the Supreme Court or the District Court or
40:15
Speaker 2: whichever court, then why would they join the job in
40:19
Speaker 2: the first place. It just seems to be a massive
40:23
Speaker 2: issue that needs to be resolved and the community has
40:26
Speaker 2: got a vital interest in the outcome.
40:28
Speaker 5: Without doubt, the new South Poles Police Force is struggling
40:33
Speaker 5: to hold onto police near I think there's something in
40:36
Speaker 5: the order of three thousand vacancies and there's probably another
40:40
Speaker 5: one to two thousand long term sick. So you look
40:44
Speaker 5: at sixteen thousand, you look at people vacancies and police
40:49
Speaker 5: officers that are long term sick, and you've got a
40:52
Speaker 5: serious problem. And whilst the government might be out there,
40:55
Speaker 5: you know, basically highlighting the fact that they've got record recruitment,
40:59
Speaker 5: we're talking to people with zero experience and when you
41:03
Speaker 5: look at the uniform staff in Sydney Metropolitan other metropolitan centers,
41:08
Speaker 5: there's not a lot of experience around them.
41:10
Speaker 1: So there will be mistakes, errors in judgment.
41:13
Speaker 5: And issues and matters like this are going to impact
41:18
Speaker 5: I myself have suggested and strongly advised family members within
41:23
Speaker 5: my family not to join the new South Pol's police
41:26
Speaker 5: force for that very reason, because they're great people with
41:31
Speaker 5: the best of intentions. But unless somebody protects the police,
41:35
Speaker 5: we're in strife as a community.
41:38
Speaker 2: All Right, We'll see what happens, Paul, and I'm going
41:41
Speaker 2: to put the link to your page Fight for Ben,
41:44
Speaker 2: which has got links to where people can donate that
41:46
Speaker 2: they want to and support him in his fight to
41:49
Speaker 2: clear his name.
41:50
Speaker 5: Thanks your time today, Pop, Thank you very much, Adam.
41:53
Speaker 5: Sergeant bryanfight dot com. You can find all the information there,
41:58
Speaker 5: and thank you Adam for the time. I think it's
42:00
Speaker 5: really important that the community is made aware of some
42:03
Speaker 5: facts as I see that not at.
42:05
Speaker 2: Least indeed, I think their facts that people can now
42:13
Speaker 2: go to and look with clarity what really happened. That's
42:16
Speaker 2: a retired Chief Inspector Paul Founds on the predicament of
42:20
Speaker 2: Sergeant Benedict Bryant, who's lost his career, struggling to retain
42:25
Speaker 2: anything in his life. Now after being found guilty of
42:28
Speaker 2: these charges, he goes to appeal. But I mean let's
42:30
Speaker 2: ask yourselves he listened to this podcast? Did Sergeant Bryant
42:35
Speaker 2: know that this was an Indigenous person on that motorbike?
42:39
Speaker 2: Did he intend to create a situation where he could
42:44
Speaker 2: be injured or killed? No, he was doing his studio
42:47
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned, and I think the overlay
42:49
Speaker 2: of politics in this is extremely unhealthy. Our law must
42:55
Speaker 2: be blind and impartial. And when you look at the
42:58
Speaker 2: string of offenses that were committed that morning, the duty
43:02
Speaker 2: was clear to apprehend villains, take them off the street,
43:07
Speaker 2: reduce the public harm that was clearly evident. And the
43:11
Speaker 2: decisions that Jy Wright made, as tragic as they were,
43:16
Speaker 2: he was the captain of his own destiny in this situation.
43:19
Speaker 2: So I hope this goes to appeal and the right
43:23
Speaker 2: decision is reached. The stakes are extremely high in this.
43:28
Speaker 2: I wonder whether we'll see the effect ofness on the
43:30
Speaker 2: streets if this conviction is to stand. The police decide
43:35
Speaker 2: not to intervene, to let things play out, and the
43:39
Speaker 2: community can well go that way. Maybe they'll feel better
43:41
Speaker 2: about that on a political level, but they'll be paying
43:45
Speaker 2: with lawlessness on the streets.
43:47
Speaker 1: Higher insurance premiums is that the price we want to pay.
43:51
Speaker 2: Do we want to have one officer who's held accountable
43:54
Speaker 2: for decades of dysfunction issues within the community. I don't
43:58
Speaker 2: think it's fair. What do you think. I'd love to
44:00
Speaker 2: hear from you about this matter. Give me an email
44:03
Speaker 2: if you like Adam Shanner writer at gmail. If you
44:06
Speaker 2: want to report a crime, you can always call crime
44:08
Speaker 2: Stoppers one one hundred, triple three, triple zero. And please
44:12
Speaker 2: do You've got to get behind the police and one
44:15
Speaker 2: of my friends in the police force and you well
44:17
Speaker 2: said to me, you either stand behind police or stand
44:22
Speaker 2: in their way. And this is the moment where people,
44:25
Speaker 2: I think are going to make their choice. This has
44:28
Speaker 2: been Adam chan for real Crime. Thanks for listening.
44:41
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44:44
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44:58
Speaker 3: If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast,
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Speaker 3: there's a link to reach out in the show notes,
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Speaker 3: or head to pod shape dot com to book a
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Speaker 3: free call