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Can Deconstruction Grow Your Faith? · Red Couch Theology

• 0:00
  Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
• 0:02
  Theology podcast. This week we have a guest
• 0:05
  because Sean Switzer brought the sermon and we talked about some
• 0:09
  really fun topics like how do you know when deconstruction is
• 0:14
  actually dangerous for you or what what bricks in our the
• 0:19
  walls of our lives should be removed and replaced and which
• 0:22
  one should stay the same and all of these sorts of things.
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  We wrestled with a lot of those types of things.
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  And then how do we know how to deal with others who are
• 0:32
  wrestling with different sets of questions and are they right or
• 0:35
  are we right? And how do we be in relationship
• 0:37
  with them in such a situation as that?
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  Let's dive right into the episode for, I think, a great
• 0:44
  conversation. Well, hello, hello, everyone.
• 0:50
  Can someone else do this for me please?
• 0:52
  Hello, Red Couch Theology podcast here.
• 0:55
  Welcome to the podcast. Wow, we're glad you're here.
• 0:59
  We are indeed. Without you, it wouldn't be a
• 1:02
  podcast. But I would it well.
• 1:05
  Would it not a good one? This sounds like way too much of
• 1:09
  A philosophical curiosity for my brain this morning.
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  We have Sean Switzer on on with us today because he brought the
• 1:19
  message on Sunday and we have thanks for.
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  Having me. Multiple questions for him.
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  Yeah, we do. And.
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  For us, we're just going to have a conversation.
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  But if you're thinking, wow, this episode has started poorly
• 1:33
  and I'm about to tune out, let me just give you a a sneak
• 1:36
  preview of some of the things that we're going to talk about
• 1:39
  today. We're going to be talking about
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  some of the religious leaders, some of the faulty bricks that
• 1:47
  they were sort of banking on. We're going to talk about this
• 1:53
  idea of enemies and someone asks a question, but like, does Jesus
• 1:58
  have enemies? Like who are our enemies anyway?
• 2:03
  Like, wait, I thought Jesus was didn't have any enemies so that
• 2:07
  we're going to deal with that. Then let me pull up another one.
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  Here we are also. Oh, that's that was too long for
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  me to summarize. So we have a few different
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  questions about this tension between these sort of polarities
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  that are in the church and and maybe even in political circles.
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  So that's what we're going to be talking about today.
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  But before we dive into all of that, let's let's just get a
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  little bit of an intro from Sean.
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  Sean's been on the show before, but it's been a bit.
• 2:35
  It's been a while. So you just give us a little bit
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  of an overview of who who are you and why are you here?
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  Well, I am Jackson's dad. Everyone loved that, which was
• 2:47
  the joke to open my time together.
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  Loved it. But it was.
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  It was also beautiful to have Jackson be able to participate
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  in reading the scripture. And I did a really good job and
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  I was tempted in that moment. Other manuscripts have a verse
• 3:04
  53 in John 7 and it says and then they all went home.
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  And so if we had read that, then I would have invited us to just
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  go and contemplate. That that could have been your
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  benediction. I know.
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  Yeah, and then we all went home. Stoppers.
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  Brilliant. Yeah.
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  You'll never get that opportunity back.
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  How frustrating is that? That they came up.
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  Preaching John 753 and yeah. I'm glad that it came up on
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  Yeah, I'm so glad. Yeah, we're verses that don't
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  exist everywhere. You discussed.
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  No, I work with our student ministry here at South.
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  And what else? What more intro do you need than
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  that? I think that's Shepherd's
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  father. Shepherd's father works with
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  student ministry. Yeah.
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  Paul Rangrug guy. Yeah, big fan.
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  Big fan. Yeah.
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  So would you give us just a quick fly over of sort of the
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  main touch points? So for those who may not have
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  actually had a chance to hear your message that are listening
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  to this podcast, they'll sort of get a framework of what's going
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  on. And and for those who were there
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  in the message, they just like their memories or jogs a little
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  bit. Yeah, so we were in the the back
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  half of John Chapter 7, the Festival of the Tabernacles.
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  And you know, Jesus kind of shows up on scene and there's a
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  whole bunch of rumblings about like who he is from the crowd
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  kind of in this lead up moment to the last and greatest day of
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  the festival. And Jesus kind of stands up,
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  interrupts the entire thing and says, come to me, all who are
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  thirsty and drink. And and when you do that, rivers
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  of life will be flowing through you.
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  John gives us narrative that's by way of the Spirit which will
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  come to believers after he's glorified.
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  But this whole scene is at this water pouring ceremony of the
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  the festival, which is meant to kind of symbolize and celebrate
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  God's provision and all of the rains that have brought forth
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  the harvest and then kind of this river of life that comes
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  through his provision. And then also this kind of
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  calling on the the Messiah coming and Jesus kind of mic
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  drop moments. And I think that sometimes we
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  lose kind of perspective on like how wild that must have been in.
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  The moment crazy. Like this, like highly involved
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  ceremony, this water pouring ceremony that's been taking
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  place over the last seven days, this festival that has been held
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  and is incredibly important to the people year after year after
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  year. Rabbi is claiming that if you've
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  never seen or been a part of this, then you've never
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  experienced joy. And in this moment, Jesus is
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  like, all of this is me. Yeah.
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  Like I am the fulfillment of that.
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  It is all about me and it will all be about me moving forward.
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  I'm trying to think of like a modern day example of that.
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  I I mean it's like like I guess the closest it's.
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  Almost. It's almost like I am Santa
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  Claus. Like it's, yeah.
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  But but then but then also like, it's like actually a a Yeah.
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  It's not not a religious leader in the group.
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  It's like if someone like, you know, picks someone, we'll pick
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  Jake Smister, good friend of all of us.
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  Yeah. Like Jake kinda looks.
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  Like Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  He's like. Pops up on stage I.
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  Am Jesus. Yeah, he just jumps up on he.
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  Kinda looks like Jesus. Sunday and he's like, this is
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  all pointing to me. It's like, well, let's yeah, I
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  don't know if prior you brought. Perfect, I am.
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  But if you had any inkling, inkling about that, I am Jesus.
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  I'm just like you. Come in of Jesus.
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  Well, let me clear it up. Yep, I am.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  Oh man. Jake's going to love this
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  episode, yes? Absolutely.
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  But I think that, you know, that I think Andy Stanley gave a, an
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  example of that or a, you know, a parallel of that where he
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  said, you know, everyone knows who Billy Graham is.
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  But it's like if Billy Graham just suddenly switched and, and
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  just suddenly started saying, no, no, actually, it's not about
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  Jesus said it's not about Moses. I'm not saying it's not about
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  Jesus. It's now about me.
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  Like that. That's the shift that they're
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  feeling. Yeah.
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  Like no, this is about Moses. And it's easy to lose sight of
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  that in this moment in time where you're like, this was wild
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  and radical and absurd to some and.
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  Yep, if you understand the biblical context, it's really
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  easy to understand why people killed Jesus.
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  Yes. Yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah, He was like pretty out there.
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  Yeah. And.
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  And and I love CS Lewis's conversation around like, you
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  know, how that's really what people are assessing in the day
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  and what we're assessing now that he's either mad or he's a
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  liar who is actually who he says he is.
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  Yeah. And those are those are three
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  really difficult. Choices.
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  And it's an interesting exercise to wrestle with.
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  Like what if Jake Schmieser was Jesus?
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  Or what if Jesus was a part of any of our congregations?
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  If he is, we better get him on this episode.
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  ASAP for sure, but what if Jesus was here present day in many of
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  our our, you know, church families, congregations,
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  churches and started making verbatim the same claims as
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  Jesus did? We would be like, this person's
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  crazy. This person is radical.
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  This is like, insane. Like, what do I do with this?
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  Yeah, We would have some of the same exact responses.
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  And it's, it's a interesting exercise to like, put yourself
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  in that place because then it gives you better insight into
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  what was going on and what we should take away from it.
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  You know, so then you took that idea, all right, Jesus is
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  controversial, right? And then it's he's a polarizing
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  character in his day. But you you sort of spent a bulk
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  of your time then saying he's polarizing even within the
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  church today, the way of Jesus defining who was this man and
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  what was he actually about? The answer to that question
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  changes based upon the congregation that the
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  denomination you're in, the political affiliation that your
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  denominations tends towards. And you spent the the rest of
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  your message saying this is still happening.
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  Jesus is still infuriatingly difficult to nail down.
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  And each each political group and religious groups thinks that
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  they have the the corner on the Jesus way.
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  Well, and we saw it right in the immediate aftermath of Jesus
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  proclamation at this moment in the division in the crowd.
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  And you know, then some people saying this man is surely a
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  prophet. Some people saying this man is
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  the Messiah to John's point of believe in Jesus and understand
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  he's the son of God and he's the Messiah.
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  They caught on in that moment. And then, you know, others are
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  like wrapped around the axle of different like prophetic details
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  that like are unmet or unmet from their perspective.
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  And then we have the Pharisees. And so the point that the, So
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  what you were saying is that happens all the time.
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  Even now, like every day, we wrestle with what it looks like
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  to live in the way of Jesus, with the heart of Jesus.
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  What is it that he requires of us?
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  All of these different things. And depending on which
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  denomination you're in, as you mentioned, or church family
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  you're part of, I made kind of the point that it could go all
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  the way back to what was said around the dinner table that you
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  sat at as a kid as some of these things were kind of forming in
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  our lives. And so there is a lot of
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  different ideas and opinions and perspectives that come into
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  play. And I think one of the things
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  that was on my heart in this moment was can we have a
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  discussion about what that looks like in such a way that we can
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  also have some more understanding and compassion for
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  each other on our journeys of faith and following Jesus?
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  Because that division still takes place over kind of
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  polarizing stances that we cling on to.
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  And some of them could be good bricks in that wall and some of
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  them could be crumbling to the point that you're making.
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  And and how do we handle that? Yeah, I think it.
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  It seems like all all you can actually ever really do like if
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  you ever read like the theory around the word my and how it
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  shifts across different things. Like you go anywhere from like
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  my shoes, which I actually have ownership over to my wife and my
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  kids, which I might sit in a like a head of household role
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  all the way up to my guard. And we use the same language for
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  each of them. And yet what we actually mean by
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  it is very, very different. Love, Yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah. Sure, I love.
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  Absolutely. You know this hamburger from
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  this place in the same way that I love my children and my wife
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  or I love my. Yeah.
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  So it seems like all you can actually really do is say we
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  belong to Jesus. You can actually never get to
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  the point as a church or a a nation of saying he belongs to
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  us. But because we're so interested
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  in ownership, that's I think where we'd almost like to get
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  to. He's uniquely tied to us as a
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  specific group of people beyond any other group of people.
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  Seems like that's always a dangerous thing.
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  Yeah. Well, I think, I think that this
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  actually leads us pretty well into this first question you
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  were. So I think there was some
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  interesting questions that came in because you identified a
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  challenge like the the challenge is, let's see if I can put in my
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  own words, how do we know whether our inherited version of
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  the Jesus way is accurate and true?
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  And, and you use the illustration of bricks in the
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  wall. You just mentioned that a second
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  ago. How do we know which bricks
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  should stay and which bricks should be removed?
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  So here's the question that came in.
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  Sean hinted at several issues that are interesting items for
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  Christians today, Deconstruction, fruit of the
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  Spirit division, etcetera. Several questions came from this
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  idea of deconstruction in the idea of bricks in our wall, in
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  our faith. What are some bricks that we
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  have in our wall, in your wall that have to be removed and
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  replaced with truth? And what did that process look
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  like? So maybe this is more of a
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  personal question for for us, like what were some of the
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  bricks that were removed and what, what were they replaced
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  with? I wonder maybe we should discuss
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  that for a second. And then I'll go into the second
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  part of the question. So this is more of the personal
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  side of us. What were some of the bricks
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  that you felt like you removed that needed to be removed?
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  That is a fantastic. Question.
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  And that I don't know if this is going to be as detailed or
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  specific of an answer as as maybe this the person asking
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  this question is looking for. But I've told this story before,
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  maybe even on this podcast, I think.
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  But there is this moment in my life where I was a part of a
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  conversation with a bunch of people who were having that
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  discussion of if you could ask God one question, what would it
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  be? And, you know, the, the ideas
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  that were being thrown out there ranged from funny to like, how
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  many times have I cussed 'cause I know, you know, like, is there
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  some. Yeah.
• 15:00
  Tracker board? Yeah, all the way to why do you
• 15:04
  let bad things happen to good people?
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  You know, And I'm kind of just like a part of this
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  conversation, but working on some other stuff.
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  And then it was asked of me and without kind of even thinking
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  like I didn't have this answer like at the ready when it when
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  the question was asked of me just coming out of me, I said I
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  would be really interested in what do I believe to be true?
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  That I'm 100%, you know, sure of that I'm actually wrong about.
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  Yeah, specifically as it relates to God and the Bible and faith
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  and what is called of us. It's like, no, this is exactly
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  what I'm as a follower of Jesus, I'm supposed to hold this
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  stance. And it's like, actually, no,
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  you've thought that, you've taught that, you've done that in
• 15:52
  your life, and that's just not it.
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  But it's OK. I love you anyways.
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  Yeah. And if we can hold space for
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  that tension in our lives, then it can become, you know, it, it
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  gives permission or I think it's actually the foundation upon
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  which we continue to pursue Jesus in real ways and like have
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  growth and transformation in our lives in the areas where we need
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  that transforming. And I guess for me, you know,
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  one of them that is like a little bit more abstract was
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  like I kind of grew up in in a manner in which it was like, OK,
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  these are the things that we believe about certain cultural,
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  you know, items or whatever. And this is how you win the
• 16:40
  argument about it because you're going to run up against people
• 16:45
  who hold different opinions. And it's really important that
• 16:47
  you can defend your opinion. And these are the arguments that
• 16:49
  you bring forth in those conversations.
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  Oh, and by the way, love everyone while you're doing
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  that. But that wasn't really modeled.
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  What was modeled was how to win the argument.
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  Yeah. And so then as I kind of grew up
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  and maybe even change my position on some of those
• 17:06
  things, like, so it's interesting being on video on a
• 17:12
  podcast for this to be captured for all of time.
• 17:15
  But you know, even like the new Earth, old Earth conversation is
• 17:19
  like, this is what I was taught as a kid.
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  And then as I've grown older and I've studied and I've seen data
• 17:26
  and evidence, you know, it's like, I actually kind of believe
• 17:30
  that maybe God worked in some different ways in the creation
• 17:34
  of this world in universe. And I maybe thought when I was 7
• 17:38
  years old and and that can be OK, but I was given a whole lot
• 17:43
  of arguments to to defend my stance, you know, about that as
• 17:47
  I was growing up. And then, you know, I've been in
• 17:50
  conversations with people where I'll have a, a discussion about
• 17:55
  that. And they're like, man, I thought
• 17:56
  you were a Christian. And I'm like, oh, I, I still
• 18:01
  believe that God created this earth.
• 18:03
  I'm just not certain that any of us here and now know exactly how
• 18:06
  he did it. Yeah.
• 18:08
  And our interpretations of that text being literal versus
• 18:11
  poetic, you know, like. Yeah.
• 18:14
  Are spot on or like how much do they matter in the in the grand
• 18:18
  like scheme of things you know so.
• 18:20
  It's it's interesting. So I think you gave a couple
• 18:24
  different touch points there with those stories.
• 18:26
  It sounds to me like 1 of the bricks that was removed was
• 18:29
  certainty. Yeah.
• 18:34
  It because it it, it's not necessarily you're like, I
• 18:38
  definitely switched from this camp theologically to this camp.
• 18:42
  You actually were like, I actually am just less confident
• 18:47
  in like how certain this particular brick is and how
• 18:52
  certain their brick is, which actually allows you to engage
• 18:55
  people more in as humans because you're also not certain that
• 19:00
  you're right and that they're wrong.
• 19:02
  They might be right. So it it allows us to engage
• 19:05
  humans, but. We have that certainty a lot,
• 19:07
  often times in our life when we have a very small sample size of
• 19:10
  data to assess. And so it's like that thing
• 19:14
  happened one time, and therefore that must be the thing that
• 19:17
  happens in this set of, you know, in this scenario.
• 19:21
  Yeah. And then as you grow older and
• 19:23
  as you grow wiser and you see a whole bunch of different, you
• 19:26
  know, outcomes from that, you can be like, wait a second.
• 19:28
  Yeah. Yeah, maybe, maybe my initial
• 19:31
  thought. Yeah.
• 19:32
  Like. At a most extreme example, it
• 19:34
  would be someone playing the lottery once and winning and
• 19:36
  then I've been like, whenever I play the lottery I win.
• 19:38
  Exactly that's. Yeah, true.
• 19:40
  You played once, Yeah? But if you played again, he'd
• 19:44
  probably find. For 1000 years, you wouldn't
• 19:46
  win, you know? Yeah.
• 19:47
  It's interesting. What about you, Alex?
• 19:49
  Did you have a brick? You know, I, I, so I was always
• 19:54
  really uncomfortable with uncertainty for the most part.
• 19:57
  So much so that my friends used to tease me, you know, like I, I
• 20:02
  had a really good friend whose girlfriend said like, like, what
• 20:05
  does Alex believe about stuff? He's like, I've been friends
• 20:09
  with him for like 10 years. I couldn't help you.
• 20:12
  I mean, they always just knew I believed in Jesus.
• 20:14
  Meaning that they, they, you weren't certain about anything.
• 20:18
  Well, I was certain about Jesus, but I didn't like I would, I
• 20:21
  would, I would just find myself getting up to preach on like
• 20:24
  nuanced subjects. Like I get up to preach in a
• 20:27
  Pentecostal church on like free will, which is like a bastion of
• 20:31
  Pentecostal theology. And I just find myself saying
• 20:35
  things like, this is a 2000 year old argument, we're probably not
• 20:39
  going to solve it in this room tonight.
• 20:41
  And it felt like all the other guys my age I was around were
• 20:43
  trying to solve all debates in their moment.
• 20:47
  So I was always quite comfortable with that.
• 20:49
  If I had anything that maybe was the the hardest point, it was
• 20:54
  maybe walking out of that first Genesis seminary class where I
• 20:58
  was like, oh, there's so much like depth to this that feels
• 21:04
  like it. It came as a bit of a shock, you
• 21:08
  know, and actually, and, and so let me say this, we're, we're
• 21:11
  kind of talking theologically here.
• 21:13
  For me, the huge bricks were actually a belief that pastors
• 21:20
  were a different species of human.
• 21:23
  Like I grew up in a world where these guys spoke as though God
• 21:29
  was speaking from stage. They would get up and say things
• 21:32
  and, and I started working in the church maybe too early.
• 21:35
  Like I was an assistant finance guy in a church at like 19 years
• 21:40
  old because I just wanted to help out and I wanted to
• 21:42
  volunteer and they have to get paid for that.
• 21:45
  But I'd see the guys that I'd seen on stage, off stage.
• 21:50
  I was like, oh man. This.
• 21:52
  Is not what I thought it was at all.
• 21:54
  Like they might be worse than normal sometimes.
• 21:57
  Yeah. So that that was where I like,
• 22:00
  it wasn't the theology stuff. It was what I believed God did
• 22:04
  in people that were called to serve him.
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  And so I just thought like the modern pastors, if I'm honest,
• 22:15
  naively, a lot closer to someone like Paul than than they were.
• 22:20
  And if. You met Paul and.
• 22:21
  Then yeah. And then later, maybe I
• 22:23
  misunderstood what Paul was like.
• 22:25
  Like a tiny, like really quick example is the like 2 of the
• 22:28
  pastors. I was in both services, you
• 22:30
  know, because I was a nerd. I was at like 8 services a week,
• 22:34
  preached the same message and I was like, oh man, that's
• 22:37
  incredible. Like they both preached exactly
• 22:40
  the same thing like God is. God spoke to both of them in
• 22:43
  the. Same, you know, and I even
• 22:44
  mentioned it to one of them was like, wow, isn't God great?
• 22:46
  And then after it was like wait which one of you 2 stole the
• 22:49
  other ones now? There's churches across the
• 22:52
  country that belong to an organization that give that like
• 22:56
  subscribe. To the sermon notes and.
• 22:58
  Like, yeah, you can go to a whole bunch of churches that
• 23:00
  will preach the exact same message.
• 23:02
  That I think, I think it actually just taught me that you
• 23:04
  don't rely on humans as a foundation.
• 23:08
  Yeah. Like we're all somewhat average
• 23:11
  examples of what Jesus looked like.
• 23:13
  Yeah, I have a couple others, unless you want to share, but
• 23:17
  some more like tangible ones that like we're on my heart as I
• 23:22
  was writing this and maybe it came across, but it's like I I
• 23:25
  believe that to be a Christian, I was I had to be a part of a
• 23:28
  certain political affiliation growing up, you know?
• 23:31
  Yeah, Like it was like you're a Christian and therefore this is
• 23:34
  what we believe about politics in this country and how we hold
• 23:38
  a stance on it. It's like kind of reassessing
• 23:42
  some of that as I've gotten older and recognizing that maybe
• 23:45
  that wasn't as important to Jesus as maybe some other
• 23:48
  things. Yeah, there was another one.
• 23:54
  I I think that I've grown in my understanding of reading the
• 23:58
  word and studying it, that I don't take everything as literal
• 24:04
  now, just understanding, you know, different collections of
• 24:10
  books and the intention behind it.
• 24:12
  And how is this demonstrating the heart of God versus like,
• 24:15
  but that happened as it was written in the story.
• 24:18
  So those are some things that like I've I've certainly
• 24:20
  wrestled with at a practical level.
• 24:23
  Yeah, so. I want to move into the second
• 24:25
  part of this question, which I think is maybe more like this
• 24:29
  tension point. So I don't know who wrote this
• 24:33
  question in, but I'm just imagining like the idea of
• 24:38
  dismantling a wall is a little bit terrifying.
• 24:41
  And how do you know which bricks are, say, need to stay and which
• 24:43
  was should move? So how do we know when a brick
• 24:47
  doesn't does need to be replaced?
• 24:51
  How do we find truth and not twist the word to what we want
• 24:54
  it to be? That's the massive risk of all
• 24:57
  of this, right? Like, like with, with this
• 25:01
  well-intentioned heart of saying, like, you know, I'm
• 25:04
  just, I'm just trying to stay open and not be certain and not
• 25:09
  be arrogant. So therefore I can start
• 25:11
  fiddling with this wall. There's parts of that wall that
• 25:14
  are sacred, that are truth that feels risky in this moment.
• 25:19
  End of the topic of division, the Micah 6-8 Act justly, love
• 25:23
  mercy, walk humbly with your God.
• 25:25
  What does this look like when you have division with others
• 25:29
  also? Yeah.
• 25:31
  So that that's the main, the main point is that first
• 25:33
  section. How do you know?
• 25:35
  Yeah. So for me, it's an interesting
• 25:40
  and important question to ask because like, I think that that
• 25:44
  process is a lifelong process. It's a lifelong process of
• 25:49
  understanding how to be in a Princess of Jesus.
• 25:51
  And there might be some maturing and kind of transformation over
• 25:55
  time and you'll actually look back on it.
• 25:58
  And it's not like this single like moment of like, oh, that's
• 26:03
  a bad brick. Let me chisel it out and then
• 26:04
  pull it and replace it with a new one.
• 26:06
  It might not look as clean and as quick as like the actual
• 26:10
  physical action of doing that in a brick wall.
• 26:13
  I think it's a process. And it's.
• 26:14
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a time.
• 26:17
  And so understanding the core values and principles that are
• 26:24
  the foundation upon, you know, us as followers of Jesus, as
• 26:30
  John puts it, that we would believe in Jesus, that he is the
• 26:33
  Son of God, that he is the Messiah, that he is our creator.
• 26:36
  In the beginning, he was with the word and the word was with
• 26:39
  him And all things, you know, come from versus like some of
• 26:43
  these, like peripheral type things that often times we
• 26:46
  wrestle with as a church body or as a community.
• 26:49
  And, and they the opinions and perspectives that come from it,
• 26:52
  from that. Those are some of the bricks
• 26:54
  that maybe I'm alluding to, like what is good and true and
• 26:59
  beautiful and what is like maybe something that was handed to me
• 27:03
  because like the person who taught it to me at that point in
• 27:07
  time held that belief, but it was kind of their perspective or
• 27:12
  whatever it might be. So I think sometimes I could be
• 27:15
  really easily visible, like, and the example that I gave about my
• 27:23
  salvation, like if you had doubts about whether or not you,
• 27:27
  you know, God saved you, then that doubt is actually the
• 27:31
  undoing of your salvation. And I wrestled for years of,
• 27:34
  like, how many times have I prayed this prayer?
• 27:37
  Am I in, like, a safe zone or an unsafe zone?
• 27:40
  Like, yeah, yeah. Just like haunted me for a long
• 27:43
  time. So to that point, I think the
• 27:49
  need to know which bricks are good, which bricks are bad.
• 27:55
  Behind that question is actually an anxiety.
• 27:58
  If I get them wrong, something's gonna happen.
• 28:01
  What's the thing? What's the like if I
• 28:05
  accidentally chip out the wrong brick?
• 28:09
  What's the fear behind that? Well, and then also if if you
• 28:14
  did that and maybe you change your stance on something and
• 28:18
  then you went from. The right category to the wrong
• 28:20
  one. But then maybe 10 years later,
• 28:22
  you're like, I've continued to pursue this and I've continued
• 28:25
  to have conversation and wrestle and pray about it and pour over
• 28:28
  the word, and I've actually come to this new understanding.
• 28:32
  It looks an awful lot like the old brick or whatever.
• 28:34
  Yeah. And so like, I think just
• 28:36
  providing yourself like with the understanding and grace that
• 28:40
  we're on this journey, this lifelong journey of pursuit of
• 28:44
  following God. And there are going to be
• 28:47
  different seasons of that. And giving yourself that grace
• 28:52
  and giving others that grace as they're on their own journeys,
• 28:56
  which is maybe speaks the lack of grace, speaks to like the
• 28:59
  division that can occur from that standpoint.
• 29:02
  Yeah. But yeah, the anxiety of like,
• 29:04
  right, wrong, like, what's right, what's wrong, what's
• 29:06
  right, what's wrong. So why is that an issue though?
• 29:10
  Like why is it important to get it right and important to not
• 29:15
  get it wrong? Well, I think that's a
• 29:17
  personality issue, isn't it as well?
• 29:19
  Well, so, but let's talk about that like, what's the what's the
• 29:22
  fear? Because I feel like that's
• 29:25
  actually the crux of the matter. So I, I actually think the gift
• 29:28
  of the metaphor, it works brilliantly, but it breaks down
• 29:36
  when you're talking about how. So it breaks down to a degree
• 29:41
  when you're talking about how bricks are identified, because
• 29:44
  in a, in a brick wall, a real 1 you, it's a visual process,
• 29:48
  right? You get to see that for us, it's
• 29:53
  actually the to a degree each brick supports other bricks.
• 29:58
  And so it's when it stops functioning for us is how we
• 30:01
  start to notice it. So again, for to go back to my
• 30:04
  example, my brick of church leadership was a thing that led
• 30:12
  to my wall starting to sag in some ways.
• 30:14
  To keep that metaphor going. It's like there's a, there's a
• 30:18
  structural issue in the wall and that's when I know it needs to
• 30:22
  be replaced. Now I wonder whether when we
• 30:25
  talk about deconstruction versus something else, actually there's
• 30:30
  some people that like, actually scripture talks about Jesus as
• 30:33
  the chief cornerstone like that. Actually, some people are like,
• 30:37
  Oh my goodness, this wall I was given is so messed up.
• 30:40
  That's why I've ended up stripping it all the way back to
• 30:42
  just Jesus. And you meet some of those
• 30:45
  people that are like, you know, I'm right now, I'm not even in
• 30:47
  the church. Like it's not a long term
• 30:51
  healthy position, I would say. But they like, I ended up with
• 30:55
  nothing else. I was there clinging just
• 30:58
  desperately to who I believe Jesus was.
• 31:01
  And it felt like everything else I knew about the world was just
• 31:05
  rocking. And some of those people seem
• 31:07
  like they go all the way back and others of us are in a
• 31:13
  different place where something happens in a section of the wall
• 31:16
  seems like it's out of whack. And that's the place that God
• 31:20
  does some work. Sometimes it's another section.
• 31:23
  And I think that it's really that experience of can I trust
• 31:27
  that thing anymore? Yeah, so I guess.
• 31:29
  But I don't think it's a right or wrong issue, I think.
• 31:32
  This is part of the reason why I'm like harping on this.
• 31:35
  Why do we need a wall at all 'cause we wanna go to the good
• 31:41
  place and not to the bad place. I think this is actually one of
• 31:45
  the reasons why this stuff gets so anxiety inducing and why
• 31:49
  tensions rise and why the tensions in Jesus day between
• 31:52
  the religious leaders and Jesus kept rising is because the
• 31:57
  religious leaders, they're, they needed a wall to make sure that
• 32:02
  they could force God's hands to act on their behalf so they
• 32:05
  could get a nation back and so that they could fulfill God's
• 32:08
  goodness and be in his favor. And, and you know, like you
• 32:12
  start to build the safety net. The wall represents God's favor,
• 32:17
  or in our context, in the evangelical modern context, it's
• 32:20
  represent heaven and hell. And so if I get the if I
• 32:24
  accidentally chip out the wrong brick, I'm going to hell.
• 32:26
  Right, right, right. Which goes back to your original
• 32:28
  story. That's why you were so anxious
• 32:30
  about did I pray the prayer? Wait, on Tuesday I did this bad
• 32:34
  thing and then I prayed it. So I'm covered today because I
• 32:38
  prayed it last night. And like, these are not
• 32:40
  questions Jesus wants us to be thinking about.
• 32:43
  Those are some of the new bricks that I've I've laid too, because
• 32:47
  it's not just replacing bricks, it's also laying new bricks and
• 32:50
  building and growing and, and transforming.
• 32:52
  And my understanding of what it does it look like to experience
• 32:55
  God's Kingdom here and now in heaven on earth and like that is
• 32:59
  wildly different than this transactional understanding that
• 33:03
  I had of my faith as an elementary school age kid.
• 33:07
  Not to say that that was necessarily like wrong or
• 33:12
  invaluable. Like I think that like as a
• 33:16
  5678, you know, into your early teens, like you have to like
• 33:21
  kind of build and grow and progress in your understanding
• 33:24
  of like who God is, who Jesus is, what it means in our lives.
• 33:27
  How do you explain it to a young mind you know I'm not faulting
• 33:32
  any of those well intended like moments of Sunday school
• 33:37
  teachers or. Parents as a.
• 33:38
  Parent with a four year old, you know, and, and I talked about
• 33:42
  this at the at the outset of my time of like wrestling with as a
• 33:45
  father, how do I point my my boys towards Jesus?
• 33:50
  How do I create spaces and environments where they
• 33:55
  encounter him for themselves and get to experience the
• 33:59
  flourishing that comes with that and this heaven on earth in the,
• 34:02
  in the moments of like the chaos and the darkness of this world.
• 34:06
  And and so like building on those, those, you know, new
• 34:11
  bricks and kind of like, I guess maybe the, like you said, the
• 34:15
  metaphor breaks down when we look at it as just like a brick
• 34:18
  by brick, you know, analysis of like, right, wrong.
• 34:21
  As any metaphor. No metaphor can survive that
• 34:23
  kind of analysis. I think implicit in that
• 34:26
  question too is like. But I like that brick or I
• 34:31
  believe in that one. And maybe you maybe you saw that
• 34:34
  one as crumbling and you're replacing it.
• 34:37
  And I, I don't agree with that. And so that's then where the
• 34:41
  division enters as well. And so.
• 34:44
  It's not just your wall. You're looking at other people's
• 34:47
  walls and they're pulling bricks out that you see as mission
• 34:49
  critical. Their walls about to tumble.
• 34:52
  Now I'm worried for them and if I get if I associate too closely
• 34:58
  their their bricks might start affecting.
• 35:01
  Might like you start. It's like all inter place.
• 35:03
  Yeah, and read the last part of the question again.
• 35:05
  The very last. Part shoot, let me pull it back
• 35:07
  up because I just checked it off.
• 35:09
  If I'm remembering correctly it, it was something along the lines
• 35:12
  of and what do we do with that as far as like other people and
• 35:18
  like their differences and division that arises from that.
• 35:21
  And I think that that stemmed for me in my life of on some of
• 35:25
  these different thoughts that I was feeling is like rue and
• 35:28
  maybe changed, you know, my position or refined it or
• 35:32
  polished it or whatever you want to look at it.
• 35:35
  What had been modeled to me was in fact, this is what we
• 35:39
  believe. This is the the arguments to
• 35:41
  defend it, go and win the argument.
• 35:43
  And then I might have changed my position on some of those
• 35:48
  things, but I held true to what to that model and you've.
• 35:54
  Experienced some. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:55
  It's like, well, I'm still now just fighting.
• 35:58
  I just I'm still. Going to win the argument, but
• 36:00
  it's still and these are the points to win the argument.
• 36:03
  And I think over this last kind of year, what God has really
• 36:08
  been doing in my heart is Jesus. What do you have for these
• 36:14
  people in the crowd that like disagree with each other and
• 36:20
  maybe even like are missing you in this moment?
• 36:23
  Oh, you have like an immense love for them.
• 36:27
  You have incredible patience for them.
• 36:30
  You say come and drink. And I will extend that
• 36:33
  invitation not once, but always. And I will come alongside you.
• 36:38
  And so then, OK, if I'm going to follow in the ways of Jesus with
• 36:42
  the heart of Jesus, then my heart for other people better
• 36:45
  look a lot more like that. Then can I win this debate with
• 36:50
  him about this item that we disagree on?
• 36:54
  Yeah. And that's been kind of a new
• 36:59
  that's been pulling that brick out of my, my wall of just like,
• 37:03
  OK, like. How do I?
• 37:05
  How do I? Even like win others over to
• 37:08
  Jesus. Sometimes we I think we mistake
• 37:11
  that for talking them into believing in Jesus versus just
• 37:15
  like can they encounter the love of Jesus in and through you.
• 37:19
  That is seeking justice and looking out for those around
• 37:22
  you. That is loving mercy for them
• 37:24
  even when you disagree with them and extending it to yourself
• 37:27
  when you, you know, have issues in your own life and then
• 37:31
  walking humbly with God, not with, you know, these battle
• 37:39
  cries the you know of like this is who I am and how I'm going to
• 37:44
  win this argument and convince you of this Jesus that I
• 37:47
  desperately want you to know and believe in an experience.
• 37:50
  But like, so that's kind of been my wrestling as I look in this
• 37:57
  cultural moment and certain very specific examples of my own life
• 38:01
  of like, oh, I'm functioning in this old model that I've that
• 38:08
  I've had that I really, if I looked to what Jesus it like,
• 38:11
  what would Jesus do right or live like Jesus would it he
• 38:15
  wouldn't have engaged in that conversation the way I just did.
• 38:18
  That's funny, 'cause like, how many theological debates did
• 38:22
  Jesus get into in the in the Gospels, they try to drag him
• 38:28
  into him all the time. And is there anywhere he like
• 38:32
  maybe a little bit around marriage like, but any any like
• 38:37
  theological assertion he makes is to try and care for?
• 38:43
  I mean, he does. Yeah, he does.
• 38:44
  Around the scriptures Like he. Yeah, the scriptures point to
• 38:48
  me. But 90% of the time he's like,
• 38:52
  they ask him a direct theological debate and he's
• 38:55
  like, let me tell you a story. Let me ask you a question.
• 38:58
  Or let me ask you a question. And so, 'cause he's not
• 39:01
  interested in winning the debate.
• 39:03
  It's super interesting. Yeah.
• 39:04
  And I, I guess like I'm, I'm thinking of like what I think
• 39:09
  some other people in my life might say to some of the things
• 39:12
  that I just mentioned. They'd be like, yeah, yeah,
• 39:13
  yeah. But Jesus did kind of like
• 39:16
  rebuke, like the the religious leaders or Christian leaders,
• 39:20
  like modeling that in church in the body of Christ.
• 39:23
  So like we should be, you know, poking and prodding and holding
• 39:27
  each other accountable and things of that nature.
• 39:28
  And I'm and I agree with that wholeheartedly.
• 39:31
  But like in what ways and what fashion?
• 39:34
  And it was never meant as this like, full-fledged division of
• 39:39
  like, fractured relationships. Yeah, you know.
• 39:43
  So all right, well, I think that this other question that came in
• 39:47
  actually touches on some of these same ideas.
• 39:49
  But last Sunday Sean discussed Jesus teaching and asked the
• 39:53
  asked the question which of his teachings most offends you and
• 39:58
  and listed several including loving the thy enemy.
• 40:02
  I think of examples such as Jesus and Nicodemus.
• 40:05
  But was Nicodemus his enemy? I do not think so.
• 40:10
  Who would Jesus have seen as an enemy?
• 40:12
  Aside from the obvious example of those who crucify of the
• 40:17
  crucifixion, I do not often think of Jesus and seeing others
• 40:23
  as his enemy. I agree.
• 40:25
  Did Jesus have an enemy? I agree.
• 40:27
  I don't think that Jesus viewed anyone as as his enemy.
• 40:31
  He was like a but I do think that he understood the human
• 40:35
  condition that we're all living in, that we would have enemies.
• 40:38
  Yeah. And that Nicodemus being this
• 40:42
  like religious zealot or Pharisee, this spot, you know,
• 40:45
  bad guy in the Bible, that me, Sean sitting here would look at
• 40:49
  that individual and think myself other than them and then be like
• 40:53
  Jesus. I don't really, I would prefer
• 40:56
  you to not be bringing that person along or associating with
• 40:59
  them because I disagree so adamantly with them.
• 41:02
  I would rather be right about what I'm right about and I see
• 41:05
  or that person really, really hurt me and I, my, my life has
• 41:13
  been impacted in all of these incredibly terrible ways.
• 41:17
  And I don't want to forgive them.
• 41:21
  And in that feeling, I also don't want you to be forgiving
• 41:24
  them. Like I think Jesus knew the
• 41:27
  condition of our hearts as it would be, you know, applied to
• 41:31
  human relationship in those ways.
• 41:33
  And so he was giving us guidance in that understanding.
• 41:38
  Whereas like even on the cross, he's saying, Lord, forgive them.
• 41:43
  They do not know what they do like demonstrating.
• 41:47
  He kind of lived outside of those type of relationship with
• 41:51
  other humans. But that's just like maybe my I.
• 41:54
  Think I think part of the the struggle we have with his
• 41:57
  command is that we we assume feelings really quick.
• 42:04
  So when we hear love your enemies, we assume love the one
• 42:08
  that you feel negatively towards.
• 42:11
  But that's actually not necessarily a fair definition.
• 42:14
  Like actually actually the language in Greek just permits
• 42:17
  like, love the one who is hostile to you, love the one who
• 42:21
  shows himself to be against you. Not in feelings, but in actions.
• 42:28
  And Jesus had plenty of those. You know I.
• 42:31
  Mean he had plenty of people I would.
• 42:33
  Submit that like we could all be the enemies of Jesus.
• 42:37
  Yeah, really. Yeah, interesting.
• 42:40
  I mean, Roman says that we were prior to the salvation work of
• 42:44
  Jesus, we were enemies of God. Yeah.
• 42:46
  So. But so, like, you want concrete
• 42:48
  examples on earth? I mean, Judas comes with a band
• 42:51
  of soldiers and Jesus kisses him on the cheek and calls him
• 42:55
  friend like he means his, you know.
• 42:57
  Yeah. And would wash his feet before
• 42:59
  it happened. Yeah.
• 42:59
  I mean so. Yeah.
• 43:01
  So, so that like language of you know what have you come for
• 43:05
  friend is a strange language to use when that person's about to
• 43:11
  betray you. Yeah, so I love this question.
• 43:13
  I mean, and like Sean said, I think we agree that Jesus didn't
• 43:18
  see people as an enemy, but he had those who were out to get
• 43:22
  him to your point. Yeah.
• 43:25
  And like I, I love this. It reminded me.
• 43:28
  This question remind me of Ephesians 612 For our struggle
• 43:32
  is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers and
• 43:35
  against the authorities and against the cosmic powers over
• 43:38
  this present darkness and against the spiritual forces of
• 43:40
  evil in the heavenly realms. So like according to Paul and
• 43:44
  Ephesians you, there is no such thing as a human being that is
• 43:49
  your enemy. If you're a follower of Jesus.
• 43:51
  The way of Jesus is like there are no more bad guys that are
• 43:55
  human beings, the principalities and powers that be in the
• 43:59
  spiritual realm. That's the actual enemy.
• 44:02
  The human being may attack you like they're an enemy, they may
• 44:05
  treat you like an enemy, they may all those, but as far as the
• 44:09
  Christian stance is, they actually aren't.
• 44:12
  But. Jesus knew and understand our
• 44:14
  emotional response and he gifted us a directive as far as no.
• 44:20
  No, I'm not. I'm not.
• 44:21
  Needed to hear in order to like. I'm not saying it doesn't apply,
• 44:25
  I'm just saying that that's not the.
• 44:26
  I was agreeing. I was agreeing with you, yeah.
• 44:28
  Yeah, so good. All right, So a couple other
• 44:32
  quick questions, if I can find them.
• 44:36
  Oh, I'm in the wrong platform. All right.
• 44:44
  I would, I would love for you to get into greater depth about the
• 44:48
  Pharisees and why they were and how who they were and how they
• 44:53
  saw themselves versus what Jesus was inviting them into.
• 44:57
  What were some of the faulty bricks?
• 45:00
  Oh, I think we actually kind of already covered that one.
• 45:02
  Well, getting more into the the Pharisees because I think.
• 45:05
  What they're faulty bricks were. They're faulty bricks.
• 45:08
  But also, I guess maybe selfishly just to emphasize the
• 45:12
  point that I was trying to make of like, they're not this like
• 45:16
  other group of people from a long time ago that we can just
• 45:20
  point to and say. I love that you're like 8 year
• 45:22
  old self 18 year old. That was such a powerful thing
• 45:25
  'cause we're like, uh huh, uh huh.
• 45:27
  Yep. So like what were their faulty
• 45:30
  bricks? I, I think, you know, maybe
• 45:34
  their heart around some of the things that they were doing or
• 45:38
  what that heart became over the course of time.
• 45:40
  And I think that we have all of that in US, which the point that
• 45:44
  I was trying to make in the the 40 year old stuff Reno version
• 45:48
  of me of like the the Pharisees can be holding up a mirror to us
• 45:52
  in this moment of like, what, what is our reaction to certain
• 45:57
  things or what do we hold dear? What is our intention and heart
• 46:01
  behind certain things? And and so, you know, they took
• 46:04
  the scripture and the law deadly serious.
• 46:07
  They studied it and knew it inside and out more than anyone
• 46:10
  else. They devoted their lives to it.
• 46:12
  But somewhere along the way, I, you know, I, I read this
• 46:17
  statement, you know, from this professor and theologian Dan
• 46:22
  Bramer. And he said they had more faith
• 46:25
  in their faith in God than in the God in their faith.
• 46:29
  And so it became more about them and their faith and what they
• 46:34
  were doing and their appearance as it as it pertains to their
• 46:41
  adherence to the law and their position and their control
• 46:44
  within the culture. And all of those things became
• 46:47
  more elevated than the God of their faith.
• 46:50
  And I think that that's where Jesus pressed in against them
• 46:53
  all the time. He was like, you look clean on
• 46:56
  the outside, but I know that what's going on in your heart
• 47:00
  and it is all about you and not about me, not about God.
• 47:04
  And so do I have moments of that in my life?
• 47:08
  Yeah. Do I have brothers and sisters
• 47:13
  and friends and family members and everyone who I have
• 47:16
  recognized some moments of like that in their own lives?
• 47:19
  Yeah. Not in a judgmental way, in an
• 47:22
  understanding way of like, yeah, I've been there too.
• 47:25
  Or I am. I will experience something like
• 47:28
  that today. Quite possibly, yeah.
• 47:29
  The more I read the gospel, the more I'm like, I would have
• 47:32
  totally been a Pharisee. Sure.
• 47:34
  Like I would have been in the wrong crowd, the wrong side of
• 47:37
  history. But that was a replacing of a
• 47:40
  brick in my life. It's like these guys are these
• 47:42
  bad guys of long ago that like we should point to their example
• 47:46
  of things not to do. And then I'm getting older and
• 47:48
  older and I'm like, oh, wait, I think that like I, I've been
• 47:53
  engaged in an awful lot of this, you know, what can I, you know.
• 47:57
  Yeah, I I think there's some element that I wonder if Jesus
• 48:00
  pushes back on the Pharisees in some ways because they're closer
• 48:05
  to the right path than than other parts of the Jewish world
• 48:10
  at the time. That's an interesting thought.
• 48:12
  You know, I, I mean I, I, I think one like if you look at
• 48:15
  the. Person who's almost there.
• 48:16
  Yeah. I mean, you look at, you look
• 48:18
  at. No, they're pretty bad.
• 48:20
  Yeah. I mean, I mean, you look at like
• 48:23
  there's lots of people that have said if Jesus was going to align
• 48:27
  with the sect, the Pharisees, the pure level of what they were
• 48:31
  trying to do was maybe a closer version.
• 48:34
  And and you look at what the prophets had said, like, you
• 48:38
  know, people, you need to turn, repent and live out the law.
• 48:43
  That was the Old Testament message over and over again.
• 48:46
  And the Pharisees are there, you know, 607 hundred years later,
• 48:50
  still trying to get people to do the same thing.
• 48:53
  His attitude towards them seems to be like, those are some of
• 48:57
  the right things, but you end up shutting people out of the
• 49:00
  Kingdom of heaven. You're not providing entry.
• 49:03
  Points. But what's interesting is I
• 49:05
  think Paul, who was himself one of the religious elite in in his
• 49:10
  account, in his evaluation of his credentials as a religious
• 49:16
  leader, he doesn't call them neutral or like partially OK, he
• 49:22
  calls them detrimental. Actually put them in the cons
• 49:25
  list and here's why I think in his his evaluation when he says
• 49:30
  I'm of the tribal Benjamin of Hebrew of Hebrews as to the law
• 49:34
  Pharisee, all this stuff. I call them as loss, which is
• 49:38
  like an accounting term. It's in the detrimental category
• 49:43
  and because it distracted him from the actual heart of God.
• 49:47
  And because it distracts other people from the actual heart of
• 49:50
  God and hypocracy, you know, and those are some of the, the
• 49:54
  elements too, that I had mentioned in the division and
• 49:56
  things that like we encounter on our journey and like we, we hold
• 50:00
  that hypocrisy kind of affiliation with the Pharisees,
• 50:07
  like quite strongly and for a good reason, because and because
• 50:10
  Jesus has pointed it out too. He's like, you were whitewashed
• 50:13
  tombs, but you're dead and empty on the inside because, like,
• 50:17
  you've missed this mark. And you know, John saying I want
• 50:21
  you to believe in Jesus, that he is the Son of God, that he is
• 50:24
  the Messiah. And it seems to be the people on
• 50:26
  the outside of these religious circles or outside the religious
• 50:31
  elite or the marginalized or the oppressed to take that message
• 50:35
  and run with it. Yeah.
• 50:36
  Yeah, because they have nothing to lose.
• 50:40
  Yeah. I mean, yeah, they they gotta.
• 50:42
  Well, and that's why it's like. That's why.
• 50:44
  They're something to lose. Isn't a good argument to like.
• 50:47
  That's no, no. Risky because religion gives you
• 50:51
  the impression that you're good, sure, whereas if you know you're
• 50:55
  not good. Like I think of my brother and
• 50:57
  I, I was the good kid. I did all the things my my
• 51:02
  parents told me to do. I checked the box immediately
• 51:05
  out of high school, I went straight to Bible college.
• 51:08
  I studied the Bible of going in the ministry like on the
• 51:11
  outside. Definitely Aaron's on a on a
• 51:14
  quote UN quote better track. And I think my brother and I
• 51:20
  arrived at the heart of Jesus around the same time.
• 51:24
  I I was in the church in Bible college degree, all the same
• 51:28
  things. I was not near the heart of
• 51:29
  Jesus because I was trusting the religious system and the
• 51:32
  behavior. Whereas my brother day one, he's
• 51:35
  like I'm a basket case. And then right around our the
• 51:39
  same year we both arrived like Jesus is our only hope 'cause I
• 51:45
  tried the religious path and and the irony is I was in the system
• 51:50
  and I think that I thought I was OK because I was checking all
• 51:53
  the religious boxes and he knew the whole time he wasn't OK and
• 52:01
  he was in a better place because of that knowledge.
• 52:04
  Because there's, there's an honesty and a vulnerability in
• 52:07
  that. And you're no longer more
• 52:10
  concerned with the facade that you are putting on for the
• 52:14
  purposes of others. And to fit in and to be thought
• 52:18
  of as doing well or whatever is what I imagine so many people
• 52:25
  have experienced in their church, you know, journey and
• 52:29
  experience of like, you know, how many families show up on a
• 52:33
  Sunday, you know, and it's like, Hey, wipe your tears before you
• 52:38
  get out of this car and put a smile on your face, you know,
• 52:42
  And yeah. And then it's like, no, we got
• 52:44
  to looking up here to be like, all put together.
• 52:47
  And like the I, I haven't been a part of the emotional,
• 52:50
  emotionally healthy spirituality, you know, work and
• 52:54
  and stuff like that. But I would imagine that
• 52:56
  somewhere in there, there's an element of like being real and
• 53:00
  honest and vulnerable and transparent on this journey of
• 53:03
  faith with others as the body of Christ is somewhere in there
• 53:07
  that has been missed in so many other ways.
• 53:09
  And that can also be, you know, a root of some of the the
• 53:15
  division that that exists across the body when you're not willing
• 53:19
  to engage with it in that way. Yeah.
• 53:22
  All right. Well, we have hardly any time
• 53:24
  left, but I do think, I think we can address this last question
• 53:30
  hopefully. I mean, you could spend a whole
• 53:32
  episode on this, but I think we can address it relatively quick,
• 53:35
  quickly. Is there any kind of healthy
• 53:39
  blueprint for deconstruction and reconstruction there?
• 53:44
  Sure. In my, in my perspective, and I
• 53:47
  tried to make this point, I'm not sure if it came across
• 53:49
  clearly. There's like, I think that the
• 53:52
  term deconstruction can become unhelpful in some ways because
• 53:57
  there's connotations and kind of definitions of it that aren't
• 54:00
  necessarily what I think everyone is experiencing in
• 54:03
  their own in their own right. Deconstructing to the point of
• 54:06
  like, I'm just going to tear this wall down and walk away.
• 54:10
  Like, sure, maybe that can be like a true definition of
• 54:13
  deconstruction. Like I'm unbuilding all of this.
• 54:16
  I'm going on towards something different.
• 54:18
  Deconstruction in the way that I think is helpful is like, yeah,
• 54:25
  assessing like, OK, what is continuing to pursue, continuing
• 54:30
  to be in the word, continuing to grow.
• 54:33
  We all talk about growth and transformation, but then that
• 54:38
  requires that something has changed.
• 54:40
  Yeah. And So what what the point that
• 54:44
  I was trying to make was sometimes we use this word
• 54:48
  deconstruction. And as Christians, we can even
• 54:50
  feel guilty about like wrestling with the process because it has
• 54:54
  this negative connotation word associated with it.
• 54:57
  And I was like, replace it. Like if you are moving.
• 55:00
  I said that like. It.
• 55:02
  Sounds a lot more like growth and transformation than
• 55:06
  deconstructing. And so like, if that's an
• 55:09
  invitation to continue to wrestle with some of your
• 55:13
  questions and some of your doubts and being like that thing
• 55:16
  that was presented to me in second grade Sunday school class
• 55:20
  on the flannel board might not actually be exactly as God
• 55:24
  intended. And like being able to or like,
• 55:27
  maybe that's a silly example, but something completely, you
• 55:30
  know, bigger than that, like that.
• 55:34
  I would, I would invite or I've invited myself to re redefine
• 55:39
  that as growth and transformation and not this like
• 55:42
  being put in some sort of like bucket of, of individuals that
• 55:47
  like, Oh well, we should be concerned for for them and their
• 55:50
  heart and and their journey are like, we don't want that type of
• 55:54
  thing, you know, yeah, leaking out too much into like the
• 55:57
  population, you know, yeah. So, so maybe maybe the reason we
• 56:04
  call some things deconstruction and other things transformation.
• 56:07
  If it's like, if it's like little baby incremental things,
• 56:11
  oh, we're just transforming in the way of Jesus.
• 56:13
  We're like reevaluating and growing, but if it feels
• 56:17
  disorienting at a really deep, deep level, you you like, this
• 56:23
  doesn't feel like transformation.
• 56:25
  It feels like the walls are coming.
• 56:27
  Down. And that emotional anxiety, both
• 56:30
  for those looking into our lives and our own experience of those
• 56:33
  things, feels bigger than just another day with Jesus tweaking
• 56:39
  a few things here and there. And so then we we grasp for a
• 56:42
  new term, which is probably what deconstruction is.
• 56:44
  True. Yeah.
• 56:45
  But so that's an interesting yeah observation.
• 56:48
  It's just, yeah, we're just walking with Jesus.
• 56:50
  And one day it feels really disorienting.
• 56:53
  And the next day it's like a really tiny baby step, like I'm
• 56:55
  going to forgive my my brother for something.
• 56:58
  If you read like the most profound, well respected
• 57:02
  theologians and, you know, commentators and authors and all
• 57:06
  that, you know, over the course of their life, they had those
• 57:09
  moments where the walls were coming down, you know?
• 57:12
  They had like, you haven't, you might not be growing in the way
• 57:15
  of Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 57:18
  Interesting. Any other thoughts, Alex?
• 57:20
  I mean, I think stay in community and it's the healthy
• 57:24
  way. I mean, I think you have to find
• 57:25
  people that can dialogue that can help you not live that out
• 57:31
  as an entirely internal process. I think that's what that's what
• 57:35
  a temptation is. It's a dark night of the soul.
• 57:39
  It's a whatever else. But actually finding space to be
• 57:45
  with people that are following Jesus with you, to get context
• 57:49
  from people that have been through it, to get pushed back
• 57:51
  from people that aren't where you are.
• 57:53
  Those are all healthy things. And this thing is constantly
• 57:56
  done in community. Someone once said to me, you
• 57:59
  know, they'd studied formation discipleship a lot.
• 58:02
  And they said, I think I've boiled it down to one thing,
• 58:06
  community. I think everything happens in
• 58:08
  community. In community, so in community
• 58:11
  doesn't going back to a whole sermon series long ago,
• 58:14
  community doesn't mean uniformity.
• 58:15
  No, no, no, no. And so that's where the division
• 58:19
  component like we could like deal with that, you know
• 58:21
  completely. Can be a community.
• 58:23
  Is that we have grace for ourselves, that we have grace
• 58:26
  for others that we are pointing towards Jesus.
• 58:29
  And if if you know a brother of mine or you know a sister of
• 58:33
  mine is like, hey, I disagree with you on this point.
• 58:38
  Like that doesn't mean that we're through.
• 58:40
  We're not Amish, no shunning people.
• 58:42
  Here, right. Yeah.
• 58:44
  So like still wanting to break bread with each other in
• 58:47
  community and our pursuit of Jesus I think is beautiful.
• 58:52
  I think one of the most disorienting struggles with that
• 58:55
  recommendation for some people. And I, I strongly believe this
• 59:00
  is not an issue at South, at least in general, for sure, is
• 59:04
  that some communities are unwilling to have the debate and
• 59:10
  say, if you're, if you're asking that question, you're no longer
• 59:13
  welcome. To, and let me clarify, I didn't
• 59:15
  say stay in that community. Yes, stay in Christian
• 59:18
  community. Yes.
• 59:19
  So I've actually had a few situations where I've had a
• 59:23
  pastoral conversation with someone and they were struggling
• 59:26
  with one thing or another and they didn't feel OK being at
• 59:31
  their church and having that struggle.
• 59:34
  I said fine, find a community where you can, even if I
• 59:40
  disagree with their theological framework.
• 59:44
  My one my one request or a recommendation to you is if that
• 59:49
  community accepts you and never ever challenges any random
• 59:56
  thought that ever comes in your mind.
• 59:57
  And like they're what makes them a community is that they're you
• 1:00:02
  do you 100% of the time is their stance that isn't.
• 1:00:10
  An environment that's going to help you grow.
• 1:00:12
  So that was my one tip. I was like, find a like, find a
• 1:00:16
  church where you can wrestle with this and that they will
• 1:00:22
  engage you as a person well, without rejecting you.
• 1:00:26
  Fine. But make sure that they don't
• 1:00:28
  just say yes to every crazy idea that walks walks into your
• 1:00:32
  brain. Yeah, I think a good way to
• 1:00:34
  assess that in ourselves and then also in our community of it
• 1:00:39
  being healthy is like asking the simple question like, does this
• 1:00:43
  space exist to have this conversation and hold this
• 1:00:47
  tension and disagree and walk away still wanting to break
• 1:00:54
  bread with each other? Does this space exist in me and
• 1:00:57
  my own heart to engage with someone who I fundamentally
• 1:01:01
  disagree with on XY or Z and then still be able to like
• 1:01:07
  continue to recognize that we're both trying to encounter Jesus
• 1:01:11
  and, and, and maybe grow and maybe my eye will change over
• 1:01:15
  the course of time, or maybe they will, or maybe we both will
• 1:01:17
  and we're both wrong right now. Does that space exist?
• 1:01:20
  And then also within your community, is that allowable?
• 1:01:23
  Because there are certainly, you know, groups where it's like you
• 1:01:27
  believe this and if you don't believe this, then you're not
• 1:01:30
  welcomed here. That's not going to be a healthy
• 1:01:33
  space. Yep, awesome.
• 1:01:35
  Love it. Well, thanks.
• 1:01:36
  Yeah, I think we covered a lot of ground.
• 1:01:38
  We love you all TuneIn sometime. I mean, next week is is
• 1:01:43
  Thanksgiving week. So we might publish early, we
• 1:01:48
  might not publish at all. Who knows what's going to
• 1:01:50
  happen? Yeah, short week for all of us.
• 1:01:52
  Exactly. The preacher.
• 1:01:54
  But that doesn't mean we don't like you guys.
• 1:01:55
  Doesn't whoever you are. I don't know why podcasters say
• 1:01:59
  such things. We have no idea who you are.
• 1:02:01
  We know a few. I'm rambling.
• 1:02:04
  Bye. Goodbye.