Latest / Ministry Minded / Pastors, Platforms, and the Problem of Angry Absolutists with Joe Thorn

Transcript

Pastors, Platforms, and the Problem of Angry Absolutists with Joe Thorn · Ministry Minded

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Ministry Minded Podcast,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: in our messy ministries.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right here in Paximus, Pennsylvania.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: On today's episode, I am so delighted to have my old We talk about so many things.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: What it means to be a pastor in this current moment,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: what it means to preach,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: what it means to serve the church,
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  SPEAKER_00: what are some of the things that make pastoral ministry so fraught in this day
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: and age,
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  SPEAKER_00: and how can we proceed going forward speaking God's grace and truth in a time...
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk about all that kind of stuff.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: We get into so many different topics and conversations.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was so good to reconnect with Joe.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I met Joe a long time ago at this conference called the Normal Pastors Conference.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of talk about that, talk about different ways that...
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Christian life can,
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Christians in this era can approach sort of the Christian conference culture,
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: if you will.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what do we make of all that?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So anyways, we talk about so many things.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was so delighted to reconnect with Joe.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: He's such a good friend and such.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I was appreciative of him carving out the time.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I will tell you,
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'll warn you,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: this particular episode, I was running into all kinds of technical difficulties.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you may notice a little bit of the video not being quite as up to snuff as I was
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: so glad to have this episode with Joe.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Get it out there.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure you listen, sit back, enjoy this episode with myself and Joe Thorne.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Joe, it's really good to see you.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that we can make this happen on Substack, maybe hopefully this time.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy that we can connect again,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: connect through whatever medium this is going to actually end up working on.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: But anyways, I wanted to see how are you?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you said you were on sabbatical.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so how's sabbatical going?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sabbatical is good and challenging.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a gift.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's a gift from God, a gift from the elders in the church.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I'm so oriented towards working in my vocation as a pastor.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's been...
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's been good, but it's taken me some time.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in my third week,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: and it's probably taken me this long to feel like I'm starting to get
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: into this rhythm.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Not church, not that.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I said to you earlier was I'm learning to...
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: To not be distracted by not working at the church.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm learning to not worry about the church because we have amazing elders
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: who are very trustworthy and very gifted and very faithful.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there is nothing to worry about.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm settling into home remodeling that I'm trying to do.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm doing a demo.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't fix things.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And writing a book and focusing on family.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it's good stuff.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's good stuff.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, it's been good.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm looking forward to how God's going to use it.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, amen to that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like this is,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: at least just from the sound of it and in the little I've seen you post on subsects
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  SPEAKER_00: so far,
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  SPEAKER_00: but just like it seems like this has been a sabbatical that seems like it's been
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: a long time coming.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of true or has it been, I don't know, kind of like building up to it, so to speak?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: At Redeemer, they give us a sabbatical.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Every staff elder gets a sabbatical every seven years.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a very generous sabbatical program.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's perfect.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like the idea of being off more than the month long that I'm off for sabbatical.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's plenty for me.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: If they offered more, I wouldn't want it.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: But here I am on a longer sabbatical.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's because the last few years have been more challenging for me.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So go chill.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what I'm doing.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm not good about taking vacation.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard for me to not go, go, go.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, this is good.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I'm very grateful for it.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm getting used to it.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: As used to it as you should, I think.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And taking a break from what you're called to do long term.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that would be hard.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that rhythm of, like,
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: always having, like, some sermon that you're preparing for or something like that.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and then having to not have that rhythm as a part of your week,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: that would take a little bit of getting used to.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Especially, like,
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: my time in the Word is,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: when pastors, like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I frequently see,
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  SPEAKER_01: usually younger pastors,
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  SPEAKER_01: but pastors argue about,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: like, So is your devotional over here and then you do your sermon prep over here?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or like, how do you do it?
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  SPEAKER_01: And the whole conversation to me is really strange because as ministers,
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: like, first of all, we should be in the word A lot.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And not just for the sermon.
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  SPEAKER_01: We should be frequently in the Word, but all of it is devotional.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: There is no sense in which we should be able
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: to think like my sermon prep isn't devotional because it isn't good.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: It won't be good if it isn't devotional first.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be good for you.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't have that rhythm where that's 10 to 12 hours of my week is time at
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  SPEAKER_01: the desk doing sermon work.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have to replace that with something else so that I have something
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: that I'm working through in terms of scripture that keeps me on track.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: I like to have a plan.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I like schedules and plans and objectives and things like that.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I've been putting together.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm there.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got it together now.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I need that to feel good about what's happening and how I'm learning and growing.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was sharing when we tried to record this a little bit ago,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: but I was sharing that we got to meet each other back,
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was 2016,
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  SPEAKER_00: at the normal pastor's conference,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is just a hilarious name for a pastor's conference.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember what the framing of that was?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why we called it Normal Pastors?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was Jared Wilson's creation, as far as I recall.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they wanted to start a conference that wasn't built around church.
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  SPEAKER_01: They wanted to do a simple conference that was aimed at ministers,
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  SPEAKER_01: but isn't like an exponential thing,
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  SPEAKER_01: where it's like a youth group party retreat,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they didn't want it to be,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the PCRT, the Philadelphia Conference of Reform Theology, which is awesome.
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  SPEAKER_01: But that's more, you know, theological academic.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the idea at And he's very aware that you're calling it
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  SPEAKER_01: the normal pastors conference is funny because you can take that in,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, a bunch of
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  SPEAKER_00: different ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I think the first one was in, where are they at?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it was in Orlando, the first
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  SPEAKER_00: one, and then the other ones were in Kansas.
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  SPEAKER_00: Was it?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's where the seminary is.
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  SPEAKER_01: So is that?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it started.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm so bad at remembering that stuff.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I went to a couple of those.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were fun.
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  SPEAKER_00: They were.
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  SPEAKER_00: It seems like, I don't know.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Can I call you the elder statesman of evangelicalism?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I can say that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it seems like we've entered a different era in terms of the conference era.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that that's true?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sense that that's true?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it feels like it's true.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think on the one hand,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: we've had a lot of scandals and a lot of failure among platformed people.
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  SPEAKER_01: And many of these conferences have fallen apart.
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  SPEAKER_01: Some have been rebuilt.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a part of it.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and some people are surprised.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't been surprised in a long time about disappointed.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm disappointed when I see bad things happening.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not surprised.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: The whole G3 thing I was the least surprised about because
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: the vibe there was just oftentimes arrogant and antagonistic in terms of
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  SPEAKER_01: the presentation that I saw from some of those people online.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so when certain things started to happen with that, everybody's like, I can't believe it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, this is, I didn't expect this, but it's not a surprise.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I think that's a part of it.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: But also, yeah, people are weary of the conference thing because...
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Your best conference experiences,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: it's subjective,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: but for me,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: the best conference experiences have always been the people that I meet at
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: the conference and the fellowship that I have.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's always been the best part.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because most of the conferences that I've gone to feature a lot of the same people.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's fine, but I would rather hear...
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: A regular sermon from a pastor who I'm fed by that more.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I find it more interesting.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think people are burned out.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think some people got burned out by the fact that it's on the same people,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: at least in the Calvinistic groupings.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And It doesn't, sometimes they're, it just, it's a lot of the same.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like a lot of the same.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some conferences that stand out to me that are very different
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: and they're very good.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of the real big ones sort of had the same flavor.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can only go to so many.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I don't know.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's a totally different thing.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I might go to Juan.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: If Sproul was preaching, I might go to see Sproul.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can watch those sermons online later if I want to hear it.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm there to meet with people that I get to see maybe once a year.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is much more precious.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I would be much more excited about an association,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: a local association,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: who would bring in their preachers to preach messages for the churches
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: that are there.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: That To me, that's the kind of conference I would be excited about.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Becoming more localized with the quote-unquote conference idea, I think, seems more beneficial.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: It seems more sustainable.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like something that actually can be pulled off.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I totally agree with you on what you're saying in terms of like the bigness
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: and wanting to connect with people.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've found that almost every conference I've been to, the talks are great.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to disparage any conference speaker,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: but it seems like there's just something that's more palpable when you actually get
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: to have coffee with someone.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, that you maybe only see every 12 months or so.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's something a little bit deeper that happens in some of those conversations.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: How many times a day,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Joe, do you get the question, when are you bringing doctrine and devotion back?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: We stopped in 2022, I think.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Has that tailed off now?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would say
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: probably adds out to two messages, emails, or texts a week.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: That I were asked, like, bring it back, bring it back.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And just, you know, never say never, but I genuinely don't have the energy or the time to do it.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't taking, I put six hours a week into the podcast total.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's everything.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's prep recording, editing, everything.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because I only did my... Jimmy edited it.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: We really didn't do much.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: We just said, we're going to talk about this.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we would wing it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes I'd come up with like four things for us to talk about.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would write it up afterwards.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then...
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: So even when I was doing a lot more content at the end, it was just six hours.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a drain.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it was good.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And Jimmy obviously is very busy as well with his career.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just said, I got to shut it down.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so we didn't even really wind it down.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: We just came to the end.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so we sent everybody, you know, the subscribers like, hey, here's what's happening.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see if we'll come back.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've been just very focused on, you know, Redeemer, the family.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: that space has now been filled up, so I don't have room to add anything else.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And even like writing a book,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: writing a book takes,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: you have to have the bandwidth,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: you have to have the mental space,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: and you have to have the time in your schedule to write.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't write on the church time,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: so that meant I had mapped it out to write in the evenings.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And three days a week in the evenings.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got, now I'm on sabbatical, so we've got more time.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know that a podcast is in my future.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Could be.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if Jimmy and I could get together and do stuff, that would be awesome.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I would love that.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: But we get to minister together at Redeemer,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: and he is just a vital part
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: of the church and the elder team.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all good, but no, no doctrine and devotion in planning.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing planned.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're not teasing anything here, Joe.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: You've probably heard this a billion times,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: but I was so encouraged by that show for many different reasons.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was a really formative time, those years when it was being recorded.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I always, for some reason, remember...
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: In the last,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: four or five years where you're like, man,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could talk about this or I feel like I could talk about this
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: and you just didn't because you didn't have a podcast?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I don't feel the need to talk to people about things.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I feel the need to talk to my people about things.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if I had a podcast, then I would feel the need to talk about it more broadly.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: But so, I'm always dialed into
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: the situation that I'm in, what's affecting our people.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I see a bunch of stuff that people get amped about.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And either it's irrelevant to my people and to me, or it's so preposterous and just so...
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's just so off the mark that I don't,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't want to even engage with the small voice of theological jackassery.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I just, why would I want to feed them?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: there are some people that get online who don't have anything new to contribute,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: but they are...
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Putting out there with, you know, a lot of bravado, sometimes a lot of production.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's clearly meant to trigger and to gain clicks.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not edifying people.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes it's wrong.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't engage.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if I go on to X and I don't very often read X.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: But even if I just go to the ones I follow, so there's no crazy people.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: They interact with the crazy people.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: you're interacting with a guy that has a hundred followers that is
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: of no consequence, but you are giving him what he wants, which is attention.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, it makes it grow.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: It makes it, so yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel the need to address things outside of addressing them in my church,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: particularly when they're relevant.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think, if I hop onto X, I get pretty annoyed at what I see.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a lot that I would say if I felt there was a need to say it to our people.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a really good perspective.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: The whole political thing is always a big thing.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's always been a problem.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that, you know, people conflating politics in the kingdom of God.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this has always been an issue from, you know, I became a Christian in 1990.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it became very obvious to me that how...
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: How often and how easy it is for churches and pastors
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: to become so
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: familiar with and to be in so much a grit with a particular political approach
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: that it is baptized
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: and treated as canon and So that if somebody has a different opinion or
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: a different approach,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: they can't conceive of how that person could be a faithful brother or sister.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not to say that all things that are labeled politics aren't
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: That all things labeled politics are divorced from objective truth or morality.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the case, clearly.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Much of politics is about loving your neighbor and doing what is right and justice.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm not pretending at all that.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: We shouldn't have strong views on how the government acts,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: that we shouldn't be proactive,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: that some political views are inherently bad and some political views are a mix
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: of things.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Very few are pure.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the conflation, the energy that's spent towards it, I definitely see that as a constant.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it takes different forms and it oftentimes has different points of emphasis.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes those points that get a lot of attention are great.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Abortion, for example, that should get a lot of attention.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I understand it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if that becomes your thing...
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: If it's your ministry,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: that's great,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: but it seems to me that it's easy for us to pick one moral or political
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: or social problem,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: and now that becomes something that we are more distinguished by than
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: the gospel itself.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's a concern for me for pastors.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So people know my views.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always open with my views on Everything.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: But hopefully, what is the dominant message is Christ.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And not Christ in politics, but Christ overall.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Over government, over politics, over individuals.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's something that I would,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: if we were on the podcast, we would probably be addressing some of those things.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta say,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: I have much more peace and happiness by focusing on the church and
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: the people around me and not on the wackadoos and the hot takes.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the important theological discussions
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: that are happening online are I'm like, I don't have to debate.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know what would be
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: a good theological debate right now that's important,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: that's happening on the internet.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: But in the past, you know, the eternal subordination of the sun, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, Trinitarian stuff.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: That was relevant because so many of the popular books that were being put out were impacting...
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the people in our congregation.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so we always were sure to be careful on the doctrine of the Trinity.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Teach and say like, we want to watch out for these authors because they tend to go this way.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't mean that they're awful people.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, there are other doctrines like the charismatic issue.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And by charismatic, I mean extreme, you know, word of faith movement stuff.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's not an issue for us.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Our people are not tempted, lured away by that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't have to spend a lot of addressing that.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I just have a lot more peace.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: As a high-strung,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: tightly wound, uptight, anxious person, I am much happier not reading X or Facebook.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we're breaking any barriers here,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: but it seems like if you disconnect yourself,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: at least from the perpetual onlineness of life,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: it seems that life finds a little bit more groundedness and meaning.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not breaking new grounds.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to be like the new Wendell Berry here,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: but I think that that's something that is obviously very true.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is especially true for pastors.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's so easy to Yeah.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be the same, right?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's the same.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: One of the greatest,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: one of the big concerns that I have for young men,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: and young women,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: but are
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: the podcasters and platformed personalities that are pushing really hard for
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: a...
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Particular approach to masculinity or femininity and like
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: the whole manosphere thing is,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: there because we have lost sight of what does it really mean to be a man
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: and what does it mean to be a woman and to have that presented very clearly
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: and winsomely and practically.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, you know, we had an understanding of masculinity that wasn't perfect.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's going to have a perfect view.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: But let's just say your average,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Reformed Baptist church,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know that the best, had a pretty good understanding of masculinity.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think it tends to still...
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it's easy to go from, we have it, it's clearly, and we've taught on it.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then after some generations, it's like, we just kind of assume it now.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's just assumed.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not really articulated or thought out very well.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then it slowly can, from that point, change and challenge.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so even culturally, I think that's what's happened.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And where I think the church has struggled is, how do we talk about masculinity?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Without falling into the trap of it being just a cultural form of masculinity
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: that we recognize, which may or may not be good or bad.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or how do we...
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: it either becomes an emphasis on cultural ideas,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: and if it doesn't become that, it's oftentimes...
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Talked about as if masculinity looks like sacrifice and responsibility,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: which I think that's true.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: But femininity is also marked by sacrifice and responsibility.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So oftentimes when people are, it's like, well, you're talking about godliness now, right?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so masculinity becomes like, well, okay, what does it look like to be a godly man?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: What are the differences?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are differences.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it all is the same, but a lot of it is the same.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: It just looks different between men and women.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we've lost some of the ability to talk about that and what
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: the world produces and what some churches tend to hop on with as well is, you know,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: It really feels like when I see it,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: because I sometimes see it,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: people talking about pastors or personalities,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: talking about,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: real men don't have long hair and,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know, they know how to, they don't do girly things.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can't think of any of the concrete examples.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've seen them say, you know, men shouldn't have long hair and that sort of a thing.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Not just appealing to Corinthians either.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it oftentimes comes down to, oh, real men don't let their wives drive.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like, that's one I've seen a few times.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: if you're letting your wife drive,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's like, well, first of all, I don't let anybody drive.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: I drive.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: But that's because I'm a control freak.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like...
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: That stuff is so small and little and unconvincing,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: and it doesn't inspire young men, and it doesn't come for young women.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's an area where there's been struggle,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: and some churches are doing really well in that space, and others aren't.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like a lot of cosplaying to me by a lot of the guys that talk about being real men.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because all of the real men that I've known in my life don't ever talk about being a real man.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: They just are.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: part of the problem maybe is that,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: well, you should have directly communicated it more, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, tough guys don't talk about being tough guys.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: They just do.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: it seems very performative
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: by soft-handed pastors that,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: like to talk a lot,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: like to talk in a way that they think is masculine,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: which comes off as aggressive, but oftentimes it's performative.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's just controlling,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: just because you're You can take responsibility and act with authority,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: but if you aren't accountable, that becomes abusive really quickly.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen that,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: some famous people, Mark Driscoll probably being one of the more famous ones.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't, we focus on those issues as they relate to the people in our church.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's easier because I don't have to qualify everything like we would have
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: to online because, well,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: we're not saying this,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: we are saying this because you have so many different perspectives coming in.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: At Redeemer,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: we know the people,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: they know where we stand,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: we give each other the benefit of the doubt,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: and we still want to be clear and qualify things,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just, it's a lot simpler to do it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big task to do it online,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: and I give props to the people that are doing that,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: putting out content that is really helpful and good,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: that works for all kinds of people, that takes some skill.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: It takes some insight, but also some skill and a lot of hard work.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: All really good.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me think of this as a topic of conversation,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: which is like, I've been at my church for over seven years this year.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I've noticed,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: even within that seven-year span,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: is the further thrust into absolutism, which leaves little room for nuance.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I've kind of taken to...
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I call it the first take-ification,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: ESPN's first take show where,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Skip Bayless and Stephen A. Smith would just yell at each other about opinions.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if, like,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: you like Michael Jordan and I like LeBron James,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: we obviously can't be friends anymore.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And, like,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: that same paradigm has been almost transmuted into church conversations,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: pastoral conversations especially,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: where, like, You like this, I like this, we can't even fellowship anymore.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: That sense of absolutism without any sense of grace,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: let alone patience,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: let alone to like, hey,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: let's try like what Paul says in Romans 12,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know, Be peaceable with all men as much as it becomes you.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: I misquoted that, but whatever.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that doesn't seem to factor in.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like we're pushing people further to the margins
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: where now I've had conversations with people and it's like,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: if you are not talking about X, Y,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: and Z from the pulpit,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: then I don't even know if you're a faithful preacher or whatever.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that sense of absolutism from...
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Church leaders or people that want to be church leaders seems to be informing more
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: and more people.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: I see it from podcasters or like those content creator people.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: I hate the term influencers, but whatever.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're influencing people to some degree.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like that's something that a lot of pastors are,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: or at least, you know, I've come into...
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've brushed up against it in that sense.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you're talking about this, I don't even know if you're being faithful at your church.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, I think that that's involved in this as well.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I like the term, I use it as well, the absolutist.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that is the mark of fundamentalism.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, where everything, it's, it's, everything is black and white.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a, one of my pastors years and years and years ago was, was this way.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he was a Calvinist.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: He was a, He was a good guy.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: He was a good thinker.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: But everything was black and white.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: There was an answer for everything.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he was smart enough to know, well, there are seven views on this.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Here they are.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is the one.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And everything was cut and dry and crystal clear.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't view Scripture that way.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some things are hard to understand.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Some things are clear.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some aren't.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Not a lot, not tons.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Some are very mysterious, and we can claim mystery.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Can't claim mystery for everything and not have opinions.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And my concern with the absolutists is that it's characteristic of fundamentalism,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: but it is a...
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: That exists in all of our hearts.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's why we argue over stupid things, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I will let my absolutist go nuts.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Grown men shouldn't wear shorts.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I have all those stupid opinions.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know they're dumb.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know that they are subjective,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: but I treat them like that so I can have a fun argument and people know
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: that I'm not serious about them, even though I actually feel them.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it becomes a part,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: the absolutist approach mentality becomes a part of some of the pastor's personas,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: especially when they have bigger platforms and are working,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: writing, publishing, speaking, because absolutism is attractive.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: The world and the church in general is hurting,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: confused, and afraid because the culture is fall hard.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: People are afraid of what's going to happen in the future on every level,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: financially, politically, socially, politically.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't know and things are changing and families are falling.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody's afraid.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what we want is assurance and certainty and upstands the guy with all of the answers.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And not only is he an absolutist, but he's an articulate, angry absolutist.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that Draws even more people.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he knows the way.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's taking charge.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying things that other people aren't saying.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: He's not afraid to say the things that he's saying.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: And even if he's wrong, and sometimes they're wrong, and people are attracted.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think people are equally attracted, maybe more so attracted, to
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: the absolutist approach.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: As much or more than the truth claims themselves.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Just show me a way.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're wired for leaders, right?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Show me the way.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so somebody shows a way.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: The first time I experienced that was when I read Anton Sandor-Levay's book,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: The Satanic Bible, as a teen.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: I never went to church.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any experience with Christianity.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: I just knew I hated it for no good reason.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: But life was chaotic and a mess and painful.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I read his book and it was a clear articulation of self-fulfillment, self-purpose.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And where you make you, you are your own God.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so the Satanic Bible was the first thing that I encountered
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: where there was absolutist claims.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: There is no God.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: There is no devil.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: You are your own God.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is the way.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is the way to go.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved it because it was the first time I had a comprehensive, clear path forward.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it also happened to resonate with my own selfish interests.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it also resonated with my experience.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've asked for wisdom.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've asked people around me, what's the purpose of life?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why is there pain?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: What's the point?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And no one could answer it for me.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so here I have a guy saying, there is no point other than to fulfill yourself.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we're wired for truth.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're wired for leadership.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: We need direction.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the absolutist who draws the borders of his orthodoxy very narrowly
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: with very tall walls, they get clicks.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: They get follows because it's simple.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Clear directions,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: God gives us clear articulations of truth,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: but also there is a need to think through things,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: be patient, and sometimes not have all the answers.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's just not as easy.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think then we could say that part of shepherding as a pastor,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: overseer, elder, whatever you want to say, that part of that is...
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like almost convincing your flock to be okay with the ordinary means of grace.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Could we kind of put it in those terms?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's certainly, well, yeah,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: we're constantly having to do that if we even believe
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: that the ordinary means
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: of grace
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: is the way to know, draw near to God and be transformed.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: So even men don't believe that,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: but if we do believe that,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: we believe that,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: then yeah,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: it is a constant reminder that the Christian life is in many ways ordinary.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: In that like we eat,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: we work,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: we sleep,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: we get sick, we suffer, we hurt, we cry, we rejoice, we celebrate birthdays.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that glorifies God as much as giving your life in the mission field
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: while preaching the gospel to people who hate you.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: It glorifies God just as much.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you're not more transformed because you do a bigger form of service in
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: a dramatic sense than you would be in the regular every day.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a part of that,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: of recognizing that the ordinariness of a faithful life,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: of Christian growth and nearness to God, does not have all of the answers.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's an exercise of faith where we're trusting what God has revealed
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: and trusting Him when He hasn't revealed something.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy for me to trust what God has revealed.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like God said it.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: I see it.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I've read, I've studied it.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've listened to the best minds.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: I trust it.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is good.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: To trust God with what He hasn't revealed, you know, the secret things belong to the Lord.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's harder.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's harder.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that is something to teach.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's such an ordinary thing to not have the answer.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why is God doing this?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: What's the point?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't I see God in this?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't I feel God in this?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why isn't there a clear answer?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: The why questions,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: which are always theological questions,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: are the ones that have always interested me more than the how has been the why.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think they're right.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would certainly be a part of it.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be people that are not just saying,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Read your Bible, pray every day, and you'll grow, grow, grow.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: But explaining why that works is why it's so important.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just you have to read the Bible the way I do or do these things.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: It is understanding that God has given us these means and they are effective
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: because they are God's means.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: His promises are real and we experience the grace of those promises through those meetings.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's giving them the why behind it that I think in the long run makes for
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: a much healthier Christian.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I say in the long run because learning takes time.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so if the new believer experiences like this expedited spiritual growth oftentimes, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because they go from zero and they're gaining knowledge to reading the Bible.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: That was my, I didn't know the story of Cain and Abel when I was converted.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I started reading the Bible, going to every Bible study I could.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it looked like I was growing spiritually.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: The truth was,
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: is there was some quick transformation because I stopped sex and drugs and all
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: that stuff.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: But those are rather simple concepts.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: And my knowledge changed dramatically.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was born again.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: That was big, of course.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: But the spiritual transformation, it still took time.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of have this explosion on the front end of a conversion, which is exciting.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: But eventually you settle in and you realize like, oh, no, it's a long, I got to grow up.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: It takes time.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: That only happens with the means of grace.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've been in the church for a while, like just preaching and pastoring.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say is something that How do I want to word this?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is something that you feel like is facing the church that feels new
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: but may actually be something that's just an old thing rebranded?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think there's a lot of times that we're in the moment all the time
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: where we're like, this is the most unprecedented thing.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: But what's something that you think is facing either preachers,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: young preachers,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: or just churches in general that may feel new but actually may not be new at all?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the things that, there's a lot I think that we could talk about,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: but two things that come to mind immediately,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: and I don't know where these fall
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: on the scale of how predominant this is
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: in other churches,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: but for preachers,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: a very serious need That we,
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: that I see,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: and here I'm talking about good preachers,
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about bad preachers,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: is that many preachers,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: good pastors, don't have a full enough understanding of preaching
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: preach.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Become the best preachers God would have them be.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to say this as succinctly as possible.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of good preachers work very hard on exegeting the text,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: understanding the text, and working out a homiletical outline.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And let's assume they know how to do that,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: and they're good, there's harmony to it, there's a through line, a thesis.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: But they don't spend enough time, we, don't always spend enough time on...
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: How we are going to carefully articulate what we have determined we are now going
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: to say based on our study of the word.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: So in other words,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just threw it up on like a lot of preachers focus on what they want to say
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: and not very much on how they want to say it.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I teach preaching or coach preachers,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: this is one of like the three biggest needs,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: which is you spend 75% of your sermon prep time in exegesis.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: That shouldn't be necessary at this point.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: 75% on exegesis.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: We have 2000 years of church history.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: You've been reading the Bible and studying the Bible for a few years.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: I would imagine if you have 15 hours,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: 10 hours,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is, that it shouldn't take 75% of your time to exegete a passage.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Exegete the passage.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Work with the languages if you have the capability.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Use the tools and resources that you have.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I think we allow ourselves to indulge the air and we nerd out
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: and we're exegeting the passage.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have to exegete the passage, but you have to spend at least that much time on...
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Drilling down into the implications and applications of the passage for yourself and
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: then for your church.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: And working out that stuff takes time.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: It takes thought.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: It takes contemplation, meditation on those biblical truths.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have to spend time on, okay, we write it out.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say it like this.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's important that we work on how should I say this?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: What is the best way to say this?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the simplest example would be if I have a sermon summary, that's what I call it, the thesis.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I put on the screen.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: We don't do all the points and everything.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing I want you to know is this.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: When I first articulate it, it's not very good.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's what I want to say, but it's not very good.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm able to work on it and work on it and work on it as I continue down
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: that road until I can refine it until it is as well-worded as possible for the good
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: of those who are going to hear it.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: So all that to say,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think preaching, I think preachers, I think we need some help with preaching.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's for pastoral leadership because that applies to all of the tribes.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's abuse and there's,
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: goodness sakes,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of problems that I see,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: but that's one that's, Not talked about enough.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then for people in the church,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: so I think ecclesiology,
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just think,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that there is enough of a healthy understanding about what it means
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: to be a church member and what it means to submit to your leaders.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because what we have is typically...
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Heavy-handed pastors and elders on one side,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: and you see that you've seen it in Presbyterianism,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: you've seen it in Baptist life, non-denom.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: So authoritarian, heavy-handed pastors.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: And on the one hand,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: but on the other hand,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: you would have,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: if you don't have that,
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: there is a, People are oftentimes like, yeah, we love our leaders.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: We follow our leaders.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a congregational guy.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a Baptist.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think ultimately the congregation will say yes or no to you.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're out as a pastor.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a congregationalist.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: But the congregation is to submit to its leaders.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think there is a healthy enough understanding in the minds of the people
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: for that to be fleshed out.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because like at Redeemer, our people are good, godly, smart, submissive people.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: We've had people there that are egalitarians.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: We had a couple there that came in.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: They loved everything about Redeemer.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: The one point of disagreement was,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: well, we think that women can be pastors of this view of those passages.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: But they never brought it up as a point of contention.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was never discussed in their small group.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was never a frustration for them.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: They just had a different view.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's fine.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: They were very submissive in that, right?
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is the teaching of the church?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so be it.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what I find is oftentimes,
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: especially with... Well,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: there are people that demonstrate that they cannot or will not submit
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: to their leadership because ultimately,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: people leave churches all the time for different reasons,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: but oftentimes it'll be over...
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's not an orthodox issue.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a personal issue for them.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes people will leave the church, the body,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because of a difference of opinion that they happen to take very personally.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just one example.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying it's wrong to leave your church.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: People leave our church.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't try to put them under discipline because they're leaving our church.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're not saying you have to articulate these reasons.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to leave,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: if you're not vibing with us, you can drop your membership and go somewhere else.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not going to, you know, I want to talk to you.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: I want to find out what's going on.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it enough over the years now.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been in ministries.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've been a pastor since 98.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you could see people, oftentimes people are submissive to the elders when they agree.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: When there's no need, there's no need for submission at that point.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's not when submission is needed.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now, most of our people have been very good.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very grateful for our church.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not speaking here as much as I'm just saying that that is it.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: But all that relates to the leadership needs to have a very clear understanding
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: of what it means to lead,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: to lead well, to lead with proper authority, to lead with accountability.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you get that,
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: and I think our elders get that,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: it has to be communicated to the body in ways that is helpful and practical to them.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not something we've always done.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so those are two.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think preachers need to work on their preaching and not just read another book on preaching.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I read books on preaching all the time,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: but they need a coach or they need somebody to help them work
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: through getting better.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: And because
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: When it's old school, guys,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think your preaching of the word on the Lord's Day is one of
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: the most important things you do as a pastor.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, if not the most important work that you do as a pastor.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, I think we should therefore be striving to become better preachers every year.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: And in ways that we can actually assess and be assessed.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: just churches and members having a good understanding of what it means to be
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: a member who is accountable to the church and the elders,
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: who holds accountability with the congregation for the elders,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: but also knows what submission looks like in practical ways and when
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: that should be implemented.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some things that I've seen.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Would you say that like on the church ecclesiology part,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: would you say that that's something that you've seen over time?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like this sense in which that Urgency for accountability has waned.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know, I kind of see it broadly.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've grown up in church.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: My dad's a pastor.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: He was a pastor since the late 90s as well.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I've always been around the church in some form or fashion.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't say it's,
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to be like, oh,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: back in my day,
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm trying to say,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: like, it feels, I've referred to it as, like, the Netflixification.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's very consumeristic,
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: just from the standpoint of like,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to this church because of what it offers,
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: versus I want to be invested here because of my understanding of what you're saying,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: of what is expected of me as a disciple of God.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm articulating that exactly, but that's kind of what I'm thinking.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's...
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can't avoid some aspects of...
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Find your favorite place to go to church because we live in a culture
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: where there are a lot of churches.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you're always going to have options.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is common to have options.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you have a particular ideology, theology, they get narrower.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: But we have more options than most people do around the world.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so we do get to choose.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the question is, what's the basis upon which we're going to choose?
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Again,
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's where if you don't have a healthy understanding of what the church is
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: and what your role is in a church,
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: it's a lot harder to make that choice wisely because it'll oftentimes default to...
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Do I like the preaching?
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be generous.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is the preaching good, right?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, which is an important one for me.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things I look for.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or are the programs good for my kids?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is there enough?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming the best here.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: But good preaching is not enough.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not just looking for a good,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want a good preacher, but I also want to know what's the leadership structure?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: How are they held accountable?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who makes the decisions?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is there one man who is the first among the equals,
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: but he actually has more authority than the rest?
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want to know that stuff.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have to have a good understanding of ecclesiology or it's easier
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: to wind up in a, Yeah.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more we could say about that.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know you got a run here,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: and I didn't even get to talk to you about one of the things I wanted to talk to you
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: about.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: So really quick, what's your book about?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: What are you writing about?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what's kind of occupying that area of your ministry, your writing ministry right now?
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: book is...
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's essentially, I'll say what it is and I'll explain kind of how it came about.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: The book is for those who have or are experiencing significant pain and suffering
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: for which there is no resolution.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can't fix it.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And in the midst of this, and you can be a victim in this or you can be the villain.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: This would apply to those, oh, you brought it upon yourself?
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, fine.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or it just happened and you can't put a finger to anything else.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's for those who are suffering a season of darkness for
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: which there is no real resolution and in which they cannot see God.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: They can't see what he's doing.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: They can't make sense of what he's doing.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel like he's there.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you begin to doubt.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's written for them.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say...
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Back in 2022,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: my journals began to really reflect a lot more of my process of working
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: through my own times of affliction and pain, darkness, and looking for God.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: And because I've seen this play out in so many other people's lives—
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen it played out in my life.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: It began to become a much more comprehensive idea of how do you find
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: and experience God and His grace when you are suffering?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: So nothing new, nothing original.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Same stuff that lots of people have written about.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I have, you know, a few journals filled with that stuff.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so when Baker reached out, Rachel,
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: acquisitions editor there,
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: she said, do you have anything that you're working on that would be a good book?
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I just,
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: I pulled a couple of journals off and I was like,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: this, this is what I've been working on for the last couple of years.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: And So yeah, it was, I just kind of talked through it.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think she had said that,
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, we're always kind of looking, are any men going to write on grief?
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because not enough, they generally don't.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: And women write about grief.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: And most men don't want to read a lady book about grief.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's just how dudes tend to default.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, but this, my book isn't about grief, but it,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: Grief runs through it.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is definitely about that.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's essentially what it's about.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I've got, I'm under contract with Baker.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've got 40,000 more words to write.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: So working through it,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've got One chapter is done and maybe one more is almost done
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe two others have got a lot of words down.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're all outlined, but I gotta, you know.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: I love the writing process.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love writing.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: I like words.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, if I have time for it and if I have I'm excited about it.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Baker's been cool.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: I like them a lot.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: Rachel could be a terrible editor.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: She's going to be my editor as well.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll see.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: She could be a horrible,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: mean person who just is constantly making me feel bad about what I put together.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: She seems like a nice person.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: I really like her, but I don't know.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't had her as an editor.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love editors.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: Editors are great.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: Good editors are great.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: What a benefit to have somebody who has the same perspective as you,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: but is checking your work and helping you.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, you're not really doing this here.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're supposed to be doing more of this.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or like, you're getting carried away.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just, I love a good editor.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, it's been a while.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for your book.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it sounds...
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Timely needed.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the conversation is going to be really beneficial and fruitful.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited just to follow along your writing process.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've been really open about that with your Substack,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: just like putting together that process kind of publicly,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is really awesome.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited for that.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: So anything else you want to plug before we hop off here?
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, man, I had nothing to plug.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you want to, you just mentioned it.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you like the idea of writing or if you are a writer and you'd like to write
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: a book, on Substack, it's free, by the way.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't charge anything for my Substack.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you go there, just jothorn.org, you'll get there that way.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you go there, I have a series called From Substack.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just chronicling what it's like to write a book.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: So writing the book,
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: putting a proposal together,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: sending it off to a publisher,
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: getting rejected,
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: what that feels like and how that went,
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: and then getting accepted and what that's like and on and on.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just,
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: for people that like to write or just curious what the process looks like,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: you can find that there.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: That might be fun.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, subscribe to that.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I got some other things that,
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know, I write more for me
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: just because they're interesting to me.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't expect a lot of people to write, read them.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: Joe, it's good to see you.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for hopping on today, man.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Bradley, man.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was a good time.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much to Joe Thorne for joining me on the show.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you head to the show notes for this episode.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: Connect with him on Substack and everywhere else.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: Follow along on his author journey.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't yet, make sure you subscribe to Ministry Minded right here on Substack.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can also do so on YouTube.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: You can do it.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for doing that.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good to be able to share these conversations.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully they are building you up in your faith and in your walk with the Lord.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you're always reminded that God's mercy never fails.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the rest of your day.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you next time.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: Until then,
• 1:04:49
  [music]