Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Ritchie Torres

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Ritchie Torres · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I'm Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York, and
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you're listening to In These Times.
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We are facing an identity crisis, especially since October 7th.
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The American Jewish community is watching distraught as the extremes
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grow louder and the center feels like it's shrinking and leaving us behind.
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Yet there are still many who champion our values.
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One of them is an exceptional, brilliant, young politician, Richie Torres.
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I was profoundly shaken, not only by October 7th, but by the aftermath.
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I found it utterly horrifying to see fellow Americans openly cheering
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and celebrating the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.
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Congressman Torres has been a supporter of Israel since before
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he was elected to represent New York's 15th Congressional District.
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But especially since Hamas terrorists invaded Israel, murdering and
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kidnapping over a thousand Israelis.
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His has been a resounding voice of moral clarity.
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It takes considerable political courage.
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As evidenced by the deafening silence of so many others.
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The
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question is not why have I chosen to be outspoken.
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The question is why have others chosen to be silent amid the deadliest
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day for Jews since the Holocaust.
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Music
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Congressman Torres, welcome to In These Times.
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It's an honor to be here.
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I wanted to ask you, I've heard you speak several times about your upbringing and
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how warmly and beautifully you speak about being raised by your mother.
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I always think about that passage in Jewish tradition that describes
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how a very famous rabbi whenever he heard the footsteps of his mother,
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he would stop whatever he was doing.
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And when his students asked him, what are you doing, he said, I hear the
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footsteps of my mother and it is as if I hear the footsteps of the divine.
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Could you just explain to our listeners your upbringing and what shaped you
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into wanting to become a public figure?
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Well, there's no one for whom I have greater, not only respect,
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but reverence, uh, than my mother.
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Um, you know, when I won my primary in June of 2020, when I knew I was on a
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trajectory to be a member of Congress.
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You know, I publicly said that before I was a congressman or a councilman, I'm
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first and foremost and will always be the son of my mother, Deborah Bacillet.
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I'm a product of the enormous sacrifices that she made so that I could have a
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fighting chance at the American dream.
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I'm a product of the Bronx, which is the only home I've ever known.
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I spent almost all my life in poverty.
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Uh, raised by a single mother who had to raise three of us on minimum
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wage, which in the 1990s was 4.
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25.
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So I tell people, imagine being a single mother in the most expensive city in
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America, raising three children on 4.
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25.
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You know, it was mission impossible, but somehow my mother
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miraculously pulled it off.
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The most formative experience of my life was growing up in public
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housing, which in New York is owned and operated by a family business.
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The New York City Housing Authority, commonly known as NYCHA.
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And if NYCHA were a city unto itself, it would be the largest city of low
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income black and brown Americans in the United States because it houses a
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population of a half a million people.
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And it's been so chronically underfunded that it has a capital
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need of 80 billion and counting.
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So there were families like mine who were living in conditions of
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mold and mildew, leaks and lead.
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without consistent heating hot water in the winter.
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And I tell people that my life is something of a metaphor because
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I grew up right across the street from Trump golf course.
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And as the golf course was undergoing construction, I kid you not, it
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unleashed a skunk infestation.
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So I tell people I've been smelling the stench of Donald Trump long
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before he entered American politics.
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As the golf course was undergoing construction, the city had invested
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more than a hundred million dollars to construct the golf course,
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ultimately named after Donald Trump.
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And I remember asking myself at the time, you know, what does it say about our
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society, about our priorities and values that we're willing to put more money
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into a golf course than into the homes of poor people of color in public housing.
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And so that realization inspired me to get my start as a housing organizer.
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And then eventually at age 24, I took the leap of faith.
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I ran for public office.
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I had no deep pockets, no ties to the party machine.
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I was not a member of a powerful dynasty, but I spent a whole year
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doing nothing but knocking on doors.
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I went into people's homes.
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I heard their stories.
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And in a race of nine candidates, I won on the strength of door to
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door, face to face campaigning.
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I became the youngest elected official in the city of New York.
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Do you like being a public figure?
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Do you like being a politician?
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Do you feel, do you feel satisfied and like you're doing something important?
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You know, I've often said that congressional life is like parenting.
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It's not always fun, but it's fulfilling on balance.
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And so even though Washington DC congressional life
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is full of frustrations.
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It is fulfilling in the long run because when you're a public servant,
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you can do an enormous amount of good for an enormous number of people.
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Um, You know, I think the, the ancient Greeks defined happiness as
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the sum total of a life well lived.
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And I do feel like I'm living the good life or, or aiming to live the good life.
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And one of the characteristic things about you that is so impressive for,
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I think, for Many Americans, certainly in the Jewish community, is how deeply
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you take, uh, basic values and you seek to apply that in public life.
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Is that a difficult thing to do when you're surrounded by hundreds of
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congresspeople and senators and, you know, you only have so much influence and
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you keep pushing and you keep pushing?
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Look
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at it.
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I mean, if we're not here to apply our values, then what are we here for?
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I think one of the great Jewish values is tekun olam.
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Whether you're Jewish or non Jewish, we should all be on a mission to
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repair what is broken in the world.
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And if I'm not in public service to apply that most basic of principles, uh, then I
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feel like I have no business being here.
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A public servant, uh, you know, it's often said, I guess it's a Spider Man
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quote with, with great power comes great responsibility, but it's true.
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I think as a public servant who has enormous power, I also have a
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responsibility to do good in the world and to repair what is broken in the world.
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You first traveled to Israel, I think, in 2015 with the JCRC, the
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Jewish Community Relations Council.
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And I think I've heard you say that it was a formative experience for you.
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Could you explain more about that?
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What did you see there?
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Did it change your life?
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Did it influence the direction of your life?
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It made me a Zionist.
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I've often said that I'm an improbable friend of both the Jewish community
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and the Jewish state because there's nothing in my background that would
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have predicted my pro Israel advocacy.
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I grew up in a community that was almost exclusively Latino and African American.
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And by the time I reached the city council, I had no settled views on Israel
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or the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
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And then as you noted, I was invited by the Jewish Community
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Relations Council.
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You hadn't really met too many Jews, uh, until you started pounding on doors.
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Is that
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right?
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Not, not even when I was knocking on doors, I mean, I did not.
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You know, from until recently, I've never represented a community that
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had a substantial Jewish population.
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Um, this year is the exception because I have Riverdale, but I grew
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up in areas in the Bronx that had no substantial Jewish community.
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So if you had asked me, what is Judaism?
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What is Zionism?
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Uh, I would have been at a loss for words, embarrassingly so.
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I grew up sheltered in, in, in public housing in the Bronx, but when I
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was invited by JCRC to go to Israel.
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It was not only formative, it was transformative.
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You cannot go to Yad Vashem and Masada and not be transformed.
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And my experience in the Gaza envelope in Sderot had a particular impact because
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I recall a conversation that I had with the local mayor who said that he has,
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you know, the majority of his children struggle with post traumatic stress.
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Because families like his live under the threat of relentless rocket fire.
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And, you know, I attempted to compare it to my own experience.
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I come from the Bronx, where families live in fear of gun violence, bullets.
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But no one in the United States lives in fear of rockets.
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None of us worry that Mexico and Canada are going to fire
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rockets into American communities.
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And so I came to realize early on, That Israel faces a level of insecurity that
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has no analog in the American experience.
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And I tell people, before you rush to judge Israel, you should go to Israel.
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You know, what frustrates me is that the most vociferous critics of Israel
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often have never even gone there.
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Do you remember where you were on October 7th and when you first heard
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the news about the Hamas attack?
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Uh, there are two places that I visit once a year.
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One is Israel, the other is Puerto Rico, and I was in Puerto Rico.
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I was actually awakened by a phone call from a friend who was crying hysterically,
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telling me that Israel had been the target of a terrorist attack that might have had.
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And I think, I think at that point, we thought the casualty rate
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was in the hundreds, and it was ultimately well above a thousand.
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And I was in a state of shock.
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I had the same sense of shock that I had as a New Yorker on 9 11.
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I just could not believe that Hamas could so easily invade Israel and
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murder over a thousand Israelis.
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And so I remember feeling overwhelming sense of shock upon hearing the news.
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Even before October 7th, you've been a great defender of Israel
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and the Jewish community.
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But in particular, after October 7th, you've been a giant, really, in American
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society and in the political system.
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What do you think is at stake in the aftermath of the October 7th attack?
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For me, the post October 7th moment is not only about Israel, and it's
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not only about the Jewish community.
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It's about the future of our country and civilization.
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You know, if we as a society, if we cannot bring ourselves to condemn with
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moral clarity, the murder of children and civilians, the butchering of
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babies, then we have to ask ourselves, what are we becoming as a society?
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What does that reveal?
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About the depth of anti Semitism in the American soul.
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And so I worry that if, if this anti Semitism is left unchecked.
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That we are in danger of rotting from within, both as a
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country and as a civilization.
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Why do
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you think people have such difficulty in calling out murder, mayhem, mass rape?
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Why do you think people have such difficulty in condemning that?
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Most people are good people, don't you think?
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Most people, you know, they innately know what's right and wrong.
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The one word answer to your question is fear.
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You know, I've often said that the greatest threat to liberal democracy,
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the greatest threat to the U.
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S.
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's relationship.
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It is not the far left or the far right.
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It's the cowardice of a center that lives in fear of the extremes.
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Franklin Roosevelt was exactly right when he said the only thing
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we have to fear is fear itself.
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And so there are decent people who are nonetheless too cowardly.
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To speak out for what is right and there's a rational element There's
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no subject on which I face more hate harassment and death threats than on
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the subject of Israel My mother has been the target of harassment You
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know, someone said to her that she should have aborted me and that she's
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a genocide mother and I've lost friends I've strained personal relationships
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Because of my pro Israel advocacy.
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Frankly, I even lost the date.
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Uh, Someone said I don't go on dates with genocide enablers.
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And so there are elected officials who, who say, you know, Richie, I
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agree with you, but it's not worth the
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cost.
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What — could you explain a little bit, what is the cost?
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You've paid a certain political price.
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Could you explain that a little bit in particular for people who are in your
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constituency in the upcoming elections?
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When, when
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you are as visibly and vocally pro-Israel as I am, you're going to be a
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polarizing figure in American politics.
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You're going to attract more hate, harassment, and death threats.
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I'm frequently the target of protest and demonstrations.
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There may be no member of Congress who is more despised
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by the far left, uh, than I am.
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And even though my views are no different from those of other members of Congress,
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I attract disproportionate scrutiny partly because I'm particularly outspoken, but
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partly because of my identity, because I'm a Black, Latino, LGBTQ millennial.
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And there's a narrative that people like me should be anti Israel.
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And by supporting Israel, I'm a traitor to my race.
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I'm a traitor to my sexuality.
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And so that's the kind of criticism and ostracism that I face both in my
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personal life and in my professional life.
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And is it constant?
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Is it a daily occurrence or a regular occurrence?
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En route
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to this interview, I was just harassed by a horde of protesters, so.
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Listen, Congressman,
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all the more reasons from a Jewish perspective, from the American Jewish
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community, and frankly, so many millions of Americans of good faith.
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That we look to you as a role model and an example and an
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inspiration, a huge inspiration for
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us.
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I often quote, um, well, my favorite movie is, it's a violin movie, so
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I'm hesitant to say this to a rabbi, but among my favorite movies are,
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uh, Godfather one and Godfather two.
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So my, my favorite movies too.
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So we're in the same place.
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And there's a quote from Hyman Roth who said, this is the life we've chosen.
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And I'll remind myself, this is the life I've chosen.
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I know what I signed up for, but I have enormous respect for the pro Israel
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advocates, for the Jewish students on college campuses who did not sign
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up to be public figures, but who nonetheless have risen to the occasion.
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When you
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talk about fear, people are fearful.
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Do you include among other establishments or institutions, for example, what's
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going on in American universities and key administrators and, uh, heads of
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universities, what are they fearful?
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for why, why couldn't they simply condemn on a humanitarian basis
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what they saw on October 7th?
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I mean, I get the distinct impression that university administrators live in
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fear of their own faculty and students.
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And the, the anti Israel elements among faculties and students tends to
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be the most visible and vocal, right?
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The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
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I mean, that's the dynamic that's unfolding on college campuses.
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I mean, there may be a few administrators who embrace.
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It's the anti Zionist ideology, but in most cases, I suspect it's fear at work.
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It's fear that creates a cycle of self censorship.
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And I want to be respectful.
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This is true in the Jewish community.
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I have Jewish friends who maybe less so in the wake of October 7th, but who
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have censored themselves in progressive spaces for fear of excommunication.
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I mean, the, the, the fear is palpable.
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Hmm.
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All the more, you know, I, I, I always consider, I know there's a lot of
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cynicism about politics and politicians.
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And, I'm actually not cynical about the political world.
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It can be and often is a noble profession.
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It's about ideas and values.
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But it does take somebody who actually believes deeply in principles to be able
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to withstand the kind of public scrutiny and public pressure, legitimate pressure.
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And I would say the same thing about a head of a university, for example,
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an establishment that is dedicated to values, to the pursuit of truth.
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I mean, if
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there's one institution that should be dedicated to the pursuit of
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truth, it should be the academy.
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But you know, the academy historically has never quite lived up to its reputation.
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I mean, You know, you might recall that the most educated society in
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the early 20th century was Germany.
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And then Germany became the gravest perpetrator of crimes against humanity.
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So education, higher education is no guarantee of virtue.
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You know, that is such an important point.
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I, I find that to be the case too.
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And I also, I do think that, uh, most people have moral potential, but.
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Like any other skill and talent, it needs to be activated.
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And so we need moral guides and moral discipline.
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And that to me is what is so disappointing with people who lead establishments
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that are devoted to moral values, because it not only undermines their own
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standing, it undermines the values of the institutions that they represent.
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That's what I believe in Congress as well.
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When public representatives fall below.
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The threshold of common values, it undermines the integrity
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of the institution itself.
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I agree with you.
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You, you know, Lauren Summers the famous economist who's been
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admirably, outspoken against antisemitism, but he said something.
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That provoked a strong reaction for me.
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He said that, uh, that there's no place for morality and moral
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instruction in the academy.
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And I think that view is profoundly wrong, that frankly, the principal task
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of higher education should be to instill the right moral values in its students.
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Could you tell us a little bit about the support that Israel receives in Congress?
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Is it still bipartisan and do you feel that the support in
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the Democratic Party is strong?
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So, look, there's a narrative.
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that the Democratic Party is monolithically anti Israel
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and the Republican Party is monolithically pro Israel.
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And that narrative is more of a caricature than a fair characterization
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of what is happening in D.
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C.
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My view is that support for Israel remains bipartisan, but
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even though support for Israel is bipartisan, so too is opposition.
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We're seeing opposition to the U.
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S.
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Israel relationship not only from the Intersectionalists far left, but
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also from the isolationist far right.
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I have long held that America first isolationism is no friend of the Usis
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Israel relationship, and so there's been an inability to pass aid to Israel
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because of the extremes on both sides.
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I grew up in a family that was very active in the Black Jewish Alliance and in the
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Civil Rights Movement during the 1960s.
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And there's a perception, there's an impression that we've lost some of
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that common glue, the common values that held this alliance together.
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Do you share that?
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And how do you see the black Jewish alliance nowadays?
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Uh, I, I,
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I have a different view.
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I feel like the reality is more complicated than people make it out to be.
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So I'll make a few observations.
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You know, first I would submit to you that the older African American
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electorate is a moderating force in the Democratic Party to the benefit of the U.
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S.
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Israel relationship.
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Were it not for older African American voters, Bernie Sanders rather than Joe
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Biden would have been the Democratic nominee and Bernie Sanders would
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have been fundamentally more hostile.
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toward the US Israel relationship.
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Second, if you look at a race like Ohio 11, you had a pro Israel
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candidate Chantel Brown versus Nina Turner, an anti Israel candidate.
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And Chantel Brown won on the strength of a black Jewish coalition,
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whereas Nina Turner's base was principally white progressives.
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So there are facts that complicate the narrative of
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strain and black Jewish relations.
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What I have come to discover is that young people of every racial
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background, Blacks, Latinos, including young Jews, many young Jews, are
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increasingly skeptical and critical and even outright hostile toward Israel.
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And so I see it more as a generational phenomenon rather
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than as a racial phenomenon.
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Do you think that can be turned around?
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Look, if I thought it were a lost cause, there would be no point in fighting.
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It's precisely.
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Because I think we can make a difference that I insist on fighting.
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We're in an election season.
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Now, the candidates are clear.
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The intensity will be ratcheted up as the weeks and months go by.
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How do you foresee the next eight, nine months in American
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life and in American politics?
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It's, it's going to be painful.
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I feel strongly that Donald Trump is an existential threat to our democracy.
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He's a dangerous demagogue, but I do worry about the challenges
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confronting President Biden.
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You mean in the
22:06
democratic party and in the American electorate's willingness to vote for him?
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I just think, you know, the president is facing a political perfect storm.
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First is the concern about his age, which is a problem he cannot solve.
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He's only going to get older, not younger.
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There's been the impact of inflation, and we've seen the highest level of
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inflation in more than four decades.
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And even though it's not his fault, the president tends to be held responsible
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for whatever happens on his watch.
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And then the, you know, the complicated politics around Israel.
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Setting aside doing the right thing, no matter what position he takes,
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he's going to alienate one side.
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He's just, there's a perfect storm of challenges inspiring
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against president Biden.
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I do think he can overcome it because Donald Trump is a fatally flawed
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candidate, but it's going to be a much more challenging presidential election
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than many of us had originally hoped for.
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I'd like to, uh, thank you on behalf of the Jewish community for all who you are.
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First of all, and the values you represent, and in particular the
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values that are important for the American Jewish community.
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You're a real hero for us.
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I think you understand this because, uh, Unlike maybe when you were
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growing up, you've met a lot of Jews since you've, uh, entered Congress.
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I had a lot of catching up to do.
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And they must have shared with you as well, the fundamental attribute of the
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Jewish experience, which is a sense of, and a fear of being alone, loneliness.
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This persecuted nation.
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That is going to end up facing real hostility on their own.
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And that's often been the case in the Jewish experience.
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And so, Congressman, whenever somebody like you stands up for what is
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right, and has an affinity for us, for our community, I can't explain
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to you how deeply moving it is.
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And so, it's true, nobody elected me to speak on behalf of
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the American Jewish community.
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You were elected.
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I was simply, uh, nominated by our board of trustees.
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But I do feel that in this case, I speak for all of us when I say to you how
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privileged and blessed we are to have you as a representative in Congress.
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And we thank you for all that you are, and all that you do.
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And may you go from strength to strength.
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Thank you for those kind words.
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And please know that it's for me, it's not a burden.
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It's a blessing.
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Representative Richie Torres is a credit to America and the United States Congress.
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He affirms our aspirations that politics can be and often is a noble profession.
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As he said, a public servant can do an enormous amount of good.
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The converse is also the case.
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Unprincipled public servants can do an enormous amount of harm.
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For these reasons, religious institutions, too, must be
24:56
involved in the political process.
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To be clear, churches, synagogues, mosques, and other religious
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institutions are not political bodies and rabbis are not politicians.
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Our job is to remind politicians of our moral imperatives.
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We see the world from our religious obligations out, not
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from political calculations in.
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We are driven not by what is popular, but by what is right.
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We are driven not by the words of pollsters, but by the words of God.
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Love the foreigner, defend the orphan and the widow, pursue peace and
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justice, love mercy, and walk humbly.
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Our synagogue does not endorse political candidates.
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We are not partisan.
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We do, however, endorse policies.
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Policies determine national character.
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Jews are duty bound to repair society.
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Representative Torres referred to this in describing the
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Jewish concept of tikkun olam.
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All who call for church and synagogue to stay out of politics, by which
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they mean never speak about the social challenges of our times, never speak
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about the pain of this world, only about the bliss of the next world, condemn
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themselves to irrelevancy and even worse.
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They render religion itself impotent.
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What are they arguing?
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That we should lament the sufferings of the persecuted but not be involved in how
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our country can alleviate their suffering.
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That we should establish a shelter offering beds to the homeless but
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ignore the policies that caused their homelessness in the first place.
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That one poor person is the business of religion but tens of
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thousands of poor people are not.
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That collective actions that might actually solve the moral indignity
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of poverty are outside our domain.
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Really?
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The assertion that religious institutions should stay out of
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politics is itself a political stance.
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It takes you off the field, the public arena, where the contest
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of values will be determined, and leaves the field open to others who
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have different values than we do.
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Judaism is a religion of potency and protest, demanding of us.
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What have you done today?
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to promote human dignity, to alleviate humiliation, to ensure fairness,
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to diminish, if only a little, the human tendency towards arrogance.
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In Judaism, we speculate about the hereafter, but the here
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and now is our primary concern.
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We do not seek escape from the secular world.
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We ensacred the secular.
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We sanctify daily life.
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We are obligated, we do not have a choice, to speak about and act upon
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the moral challenges of our times.
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What is so moving to me about Representative Torres, and so
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inspiring, is that he understands in the deepest parts of his being,
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that the hated cannot cure the hater.
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The other cannot purge fear of the other.
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The weak cannot confront the strong alone.
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, others must take up their cause.
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The prisoner cannot free himself from prison, say the rabbis.
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The struggle against antisemitism is not for Jews alone.
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The fight against Islamophobia is not For Muslims alone, the fight against
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racism is not for minorities alone.
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The fight against economic inequality is not for the dispossessed
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alone, and the fight against misogyny is not for women alone.
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There is a fascinating debate in the Talmud on the nature of leadership.
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It is a mere two sentences long, but it is so profound.
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According to one view, as the leader, so the generation.
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According to the other view, as the generation, so the leader.
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In other words, one opinion proposes that the character of a
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generation is determined by its leadership, from the top down.
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This view asserts that leaders have a critical impact on
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the character of a society.
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Our civilization will be good or bad, moral or immoral.
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Our policies will be decent or indecent as a result of the
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character of those who lead us.
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The other opinion proposes the opposite.
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It is the character of a generation that produces its
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leadership from the bottom up.
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In other words, you get what you deserve.
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Good leaders are reflections of a good society.
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And bad leaders are the products of a society gone wrong.
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Who are we?
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What is the evidence of our generation?
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The Talmud characteristically never resolved the issue.
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It merely stated the two conflicting opinions.
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As the leader, so the generation.
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As the generation, so the leader.
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We have no resolution.
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Perhaps this is the wisest course of all.
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Maybe both statements are true.
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That they are not contradictory at all, but complementary.
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Two sides of the same coin.
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Or perhaps the debate is unresolved because there is no definitive answer.
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It all depends on the character of the leader and the
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character of the generation.
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Or maybe, the real message of the Talmud is that it is in our
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power to determine the outcome.
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We all share in the responsibility.
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We all share the burdens of the solutions.
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In this election season, It is important to remember that every political choice
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we make is fundamentally a moral choice.
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Every election is a contest for the soul of the nation.
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Ultimately, politics is about conscience and character.
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Vote for those who can inspire us to reach our highest potential.
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Vote for those who remind us to consider the good of others.
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Vote for those who seek justice, love, and mercy, and to walk humbly.
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who encourage us to deal loyally and compassionately with each other.
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Vote for those who remind us of the stranger, the widow, the orphan, the
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suffering, and those left behind.
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Vote for those who seek to soften our hard hearts.
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Vote for those who lift us up, rather than tear us down.
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One final thought.
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The Jewish people eventually forgives our enemies.
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Forgiveness and reconciliation are central components of Judaism.
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When peace finally arrives in the Middle East, and it will, we will
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learn to forgive those who sought to destroy us, and who inflicted
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upon us so much pain and sorrow.
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But Jews never forget.
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To this day, We mourn the destruction of the Israelite
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Kingdom and the Jerusalem Temple.
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It's been 2, 000 years, and yet, we still remember and mourn those terrible
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events as if they occurred yesterday.
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Our people will remember this period, October 7th and its aftermath, for as
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long as there are Jews in the world.
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We will remember who stood with us, who defended us, and
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who sought justice and peace.
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And when this chapter of Jewish history is complete, the name of Congressman
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Ritchie Torres will feature prominently in the annals of Jewish civilization.
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A good and decent man, a man of courage and principle.
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Until next time, this is In These Times.