Latest / Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman / Gracie Recht and Claire Buddenbaum: Repetitive Brain Trauma, CTE & Mental Health. What Athletes Need to Know

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Gracie Recht and Claire Buddenbaum: Repetitive Brain Trauma, CTE & Mental Health. What Athletes Need to Know · Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey folks, welcome to another edition of Broken Brains with your host, Bruce Parkman, sponsored by the Mac Parkman Foundation.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: We look at the issue of repetitive brain trauma in two forms repetitive impacts from contact sports and repetitive blast exposure from our military service and what these conditions are doing to their brains and how they're impacting their mental health.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And why is this important?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is relatively unknown.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not trained to our nurses, doctors, and psychiatrists.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that means that you become the front line of defense.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So on the podcast, we bring in researchers, scientists, new modalities, patients, professional sports players, parents, anybody we can to give you that 360-degree perspective on this because it's impacting millions of Americans, and you need to make an informed decision.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Today on our show, a wonderful set of guests.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is our first two for on the show after almost a year.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have Grace Recht and Claire Boudenham, Boudenbaum, I'm sorry, that are coming on.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: These two young ladies presented at our summit, and that's why they're here.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of fun.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: They did some amazing research.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we're here to talk about what they found, but a little bit about both of them.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Claire is an undergraduate research assistant for the Clinical Neurotrauma Lab at Indiana University.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: She's deeply passionate about the mental health effects of repetitive repetitive head impacts and bridging the gap primarily in women's brain health, which is a huge gap in knowledge right now.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: She hopes to further her education in the neuroscience field and continues to push for better public advocacy on this topic.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Gracie Recht is a PhD candidate in the Clinical Neurotrauma Lab at Indiana University as well, under the advisory, under the advisory of Dr.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Kay Kawan.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Her research focuses on the neurological, biocognitive, and mental health consequences of exposure to sports-related head impacts across the lifespan in both women and men.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: She is also particularly passionate about identifying in vivo biomarkers that can detect the long-term effects of repetitive head impact, repetitive trauma, repetitive head trauma, excuse me, including chromatic, traumatic, chronic, traumatic, encephalopathy in living individuals.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies, welcome to the show and thank you so much for what you're both doing.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Cannot say enough about you.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having us.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're both really excited to be a part of this.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's start.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, Gracie, we'll start with you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: What got you into repetitive ed impacts and mental and brain trauma and mental health?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: What got you going?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's actually sort of a long story.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: It starts back when I was in high school.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was a competitive sailor, and I got a pretty significant concussion when I was about 15 years old.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was at sailing practice and I got whacked across the face with the metal, it's the boom of the sailing at the bottom of the sail.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it just like hit me across the face.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, had to go to the hospital and got checked out by a ton of people, and they thought I was bleeding into my eyes.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was a whole thing, I got MRIs, CTs.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was a whole thing.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was out of school for a couple of days.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that sort of started my fascination with definitely concussions at first.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And in my, you know, little high school brain, I became really interested in all of my friends who were athletes like on the football lacrosse teams who were getting concussions and would just be sitting in class and sort of have a dazed look on their face.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, what's happening to them?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why are they like that?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so going through my undergrad, I always was a major in psychology with like a specialization in like neuropsychology.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I always tried to work, like whenever I was able to do my own projects, I would look at concussion science and what would happen after brain injuries.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that continued into my first graduate school program.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I did a master's degree in professional mental health counseling.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I did my all of my own projects on brain injuries.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's sort of always just been building up to this point.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when I started looking for PhD programs to look into, I be I started researching more and I came across chronic traumatic encephalopathy with the Boston CTE group is doing.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, how can I make my way into that research?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've always I was, you know, a huge football fan my entire life.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: My parents are grew up in Wisconsin, so I'm a born and raised Green Bay Packer fan.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I've watched football my entire life.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I was like, I want to work with the NFL, I want to work with these football players, and so found the Boston CTE Center and I was like, how can I do that for my graduate program?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I was really just Googling people.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: K Dr.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Kawada was one of the people that came up and um reached out to him and told them what my interests and I started in this lab.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh my first year, I got to create my this pilot study with the research that we presented at your summit.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Claire and I built that study from the bottom up because of my passion for uh CTE and repetitive brain trauma.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think I've sort of helped Claire come to that realization as well.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's sort of a long-winded story, but that's how I got to where I am today.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And Claire, how about you?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: How did you get into brains, right?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a not a, you know, it's just not a traditional path for men or women, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, very few people find their way into brain health, man.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So especially from a scientific perspective.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So how'd you get here?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Mine was 100%, I like to say like an accident.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I freshman year was a student in one of Gracie's classes, and she was like, hey, I think you would do really well as a research assistant.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why don't you interview and try out?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I look up Dr.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Kaequada and I see like he's doing research on like neurodegeneration and like kind of see some things about football.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like thinking, I go into this interview thinking like he does Alzheimer's research, and then clearly that's uh not exactly what Kaequada does.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I after that moment though, I just like dove headfirst into it.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was my first exposure to repetitive head impact trauma.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: And Gracie introduced me into what CTE was, sending me papers like, hey, read this, read this.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it just like fascinated me.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so then I had the opportunity to go to the Boston University CTE conference and sitting there and listening to like personal stories and seeing the video that Ann McKee played of Wyatt Bramwell in his last moments.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, we cannot, we cannot let this keep happening.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so for the past three years, almost four years, I've just I don't want this to keep happening.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that's kind of where like my passion has stemmed from.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, and for our audience, if you ever find that video on on Wyatt Bramwell, that video is the second most powerful video besides the one that my son left us.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we we publicized that video, we put it out there, but these young men, and this is why it's so important that Gracie and Claire that you guys are in this fight.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, we're starting to understand that what these men, and you can say all your football players, Junior Sayao, Vincent Jackson, Dwight, you know, Dwight Young, all these grits that are no longer here.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why do these men and kids like Wyatt and my son make these decisions?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you, it's because they're suffering with the absolute most tormented um impulse impulses that come from the from psych from schizophrenia.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I have touched this, I have touched this under journeys uh with psychiatric uh psychedelics.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I my son has let me know that he was the other guy.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it is unbelievably unbelievable.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's a crime.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a crime that our young men and women, you talk about the female wrestlers that are not here, soccer players not here, they're not here because they are struggling with the worst impulses that a human can uh make under the influences of seek lipropriation and all the other confusion, and this is not what we raise our children for.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why this research is so important.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when you came to the summit, I think the title of your study was RHI and Midlife Mental Health Findings from Former Athletes.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us about the study.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: What was the origination to focus on midlife crisis, midlife, midlife mental health?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want to dive into this because this right here is one of the key aspects of this of the correlation between RHI and mental health that our audience has no awareness exists right now.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: What you got?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it all started first semester of my uh PhD program here.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it was that was twall 2022.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I came in, Kay knew that I had this mental health background, being having my master's in counseling therapy or counseling psychology and um my passion for CTE research.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: So when we were creating the study, he's like, what is the gap that the C what is the gap in literature right now with, you know, the CTE researchers and everyone else within like in the head impact space?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, they're not looking at amateur level middle-aged athletes, like athletes who are retired who never made it to the pro like into professional sports.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, athletes who just completed up to high school or just completed collegiate sports.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, a lot of the, you know, Boston C both like at the time, a lot of the Boston CT stuff was these retired NFL players or retired NHL players, retired soccer players, or like like these elite athletes.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was, you know, a lot of the there's a the called the care consortium where they're studying the NCAA players.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there was just like a big gap of these middle-aged athletes who have been exposed to these repetitive head impacts who weren't being studied.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really where we wanted to sort of like weasel our way in.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we did.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we first created this study.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, okay, we want the first iteration of the study, our age range was quite large.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: We had a, you know, it was men and women between the ages of 30 and 60 because we wanted to capture as many people as possible.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we wanted athletes who were not professional athletes.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we were looking at people who had participated in at least 10 years of organized sport participation.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So they needed to be on some sort of team, either contact or non-contact.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's sort of that's how we got to their study population.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have to bring that to Kowada and to get it approved?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or did you have to bring it to Dr.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Kawada and get it approved, or what?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Good, Claire, what you got?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: We just always talk about all the time when you look at the statistics, it's like 1% of individuals make it to the professional football arena.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And we always see on the mainstream media all of those NFL players who've been impacted.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: So if they're being impacted, then look at like the broader scale of like this general population that could also be being impacted playing a sport that they love.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, we're gonna start dialing into this because you know what the other gap in CT research is?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Women children and women.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so let me ask you a question, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I was gonna get to this anyways, but in all the CT research, right?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: They studied all these professional players, they studied all the you know the college players.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why, since 2005 when CT was founded, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Has anybody not thought about what the heck is this doing to the a child's brain that's playing the same sport?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think about that almost every day.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I just I uh this is start I actually texted Claire this a couple days ago.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: My boyfriend is very big into college sports and specifically college football.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I can almost not watch this anymore.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because these, you know, they're younger than me now.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: These under, you know, these are undergraduate football players, like they're younger than me.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I am watching them like just smash their bodies into each other, and like I almost can't watch it anymore because I'm like, they're just babies.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why are they doing this?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: We also worked with with high school football players in this lab as well.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: We just completed a huge football study with five high schools in the surrounding Bloomington area, and we would have like the young men like when we would collect data from them, like show us their like videos of like they're like, Look at this hit, Gracie, look what we did.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: I almost passed out.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't want to see that.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't want to see that actually.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I question a lot why people are seeing all of these studies coming out from the Boston CTE Center, studies like ours, and they just still happening.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's I don't want to cancel football.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I just it needs to be safe.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: All contact sports need to be safer.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Safer.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, ma'am.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, no, I'm absolutely there, man.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I just uh I think that it's uh it's a tragic oversight.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think the focus was purely on, hey, that's where the research dollars are.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna stay right there.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we have not impacted really anything.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Claire, why do you think there's and you just said it, Gracie.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's been no change, right?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's still going on.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: We know that this is a risk to any athlete that puts on a helmet, heads a soccer ball, checks in hockey, plays lacrosse, rah, rah, rah, high-risk sports, right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yet we're still playing them like it's 1999, just you know, the old Prince Song, right?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's party like it's 1999.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Claire, why why is this still going on?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you guys are the new generation, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: You are the generation I am praying can help us make sports safer.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Not put an end to anything, just make it safer.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why, why are we still here, Claire?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think we talk a lot about also just kind of like the stigma that surrounds mental health still in our society and also just in general, specifically like the stigma around mental health in males.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's hard to talk about.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so one thing is the athletes, like Gracie was saying, when they get these big hits or like they see that as like a success.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it kind of gives them um a sense of confidence in themselves, or like I I was able to, because I mean, they we have like the data of how hard they hit each other and they thought, you know, bigger the hit, the better, when obviously that's not the case.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're still we're watching young athletes or watching the NFL.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: The NFL has not done anything.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so why would the young athletes think that they should do anything?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because they're they're looking up to the NFL players, they're looking up to the collegiate athletes.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: If the collegiate athletes and NFL players aren't doing anything, these young athletes they have no nothing to look up to.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's this is how it's safer, this is how it should be played.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then also goes back to the coaches.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: If the coaches aren't willing to make a change, then a lot of these young athletes don't know what's going on.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: So most of them said, well, we also talk about just kind of some people are playing for scholarships.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to right now get into college um with a good scholarship, they can't be the one to say, hey, I'm not gonna hit heads with somebody.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna hit yeah, there's a lot of pressure on there to your point.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: But you talk about data.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about the study.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: What did you guys investigate?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: What were your protocols or what are your modalities?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how well how is your study organized?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and talk to me about it.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Graci, just talk to me.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we looked at a ton of different things.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we, you know, we would recruit our these athletes to be a part of our study.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then the first thing they would do is that we or the first thing we would do would send them like two online questionnaires where they filled out like a demographics questionnaire.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then we sent one of those questionnaires we sent them was like a huge mental health battery.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we had like like mental health questionnaires like the PhQ9 for depression, the GAD seven for anxiety, we had ADHD, um, the civilian PTSD screener because we didn't have any uh veterans in our study.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there is a reason for that though.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: So just want to make that very clear.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think I said ADHD, but yeah, we had like a big um amount of mental health things.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: So they would complete that before they came for their testing day.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a one testing, one testing day where we did uh a blood draw for them where we took their took their blood, and then we did a cognitive interview to sort of look at like executive functioning, like memory recall, like uh what else?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like conceptualization and constructivism, so making sure everything was working.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then we also did MRI imaging as well to look at cortical morphology, so like what their actual brains look like compared between contact, former contact and former non-contact athletes.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we also looked at um functional MRI.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we were looking at what their brains were doing during doing specific tasks while they were in the scanner.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, we're all currently doing another MRI analysis right now that's looking at it's called diffusion scans, and we're looking at the difference in water flow in the brain.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's we're looking at our DTI scans.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, nice.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like the one I want to know about that one too.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: We are right, I'm getting ready to write it up right now.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: You will be one of the first to know what we find.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, got so all right, Claire, and as the so what did you guys find after they took this initial battery of tests?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like where were the where were they on the scales?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Were they, you know, I mean, or at the starting point, did did you did you already have concerns?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um so when we looked at our data, con so we compared non-contact athletes to contact athletes, and across all five of the screening tools that we used, contact athletes scored higher on all of them.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the only one though that they had like statistically like significantly higher values was the PTSD screener.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then interestingly, we also found though that income levels um also were like a major finding.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: So in our contact athletes, a lower income um was contributed to higher mental health screening, like mental health across all the screening tools, whereas the non-contact athletes, the income levels had no correlation to any of the scores on the screening tools.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So what are we what are we saying?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you're saying that the well, you explained.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: So lower lower income brackets reduced athletes with higher mental disorders?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: So our contact athletes, uh specifically those who had an annual income of$50,000 or less scored higher across all five of the mental health screening tools.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas those who had, it was bracketed then$50,000 to 100,000, 100,000 to 150,000, all of those scored lower than compared to those who had a lower income.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And Gracie, we got and that brings you talked about stigma before, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Both of you have, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is something that we deal with with our economically challenged populations who see contact sports as a way, you know, out of the hood, right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or or right up is like, you know, I I tell people all the time, regardless of income or color, your child has a better chance of becoming a lawyer, engineer, or doctor than they have becoming a professional sports player.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, roll your dice, right?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can get scholarships with smart brains, too, or get a golf scholarship.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be a football, but no, man.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: What about data on uh the impact of the hits?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have did you collect any um acceler accelerometer data or anything like that?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't because so these athletes are retired.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of these athletes had completed being athletes.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, middle age.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we didn't have any like actual head impact data from them, but our high school, our high school study, which is in the process of getting written about and published right now, will have head impact measurements in them.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: We need to talk about that here in a while.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're so what we're saying is, and this is a problem that we have, is that when you're in your middle age and all of a sudden you have a mental health issue, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Your marriage is struggling, depressed, anxiety, substance abuse nobody in this country, nobody is saying, Did you ever play contact sports?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so they go in, they're obviously mentally ill, they're struggling, they have struggles.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, this is what we talked about earlier.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when now when these people are going in, I mean, what's you know, if nobody's aware of this correlations, what's happening to this population?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's uh it sounds like they're it's definitely it's getting overlooked.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, Claire made a really good argument in the paper that we wrote and what we said at the summit is that they that medical professionals should start asking if they, you know, these athletes, if patients are coming into, you know, the emergency department with, you know, an acute mental health crisis going on, or like going in just to a regular PCP appointment.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it should be part of it to be like, did you participate in contact sports growing up?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Are you still participating in contact sports?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's pretty evident that participation in contact sports can lead to mental health problems later in life, if not while it's happening.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think pretty evident is absolutely the right word.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, Claire, have you ever heard of the traumatic traumatic encephalopathy syndrome protocols?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm getting ready to give you your next paper right now.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Have you heard about TES all the time.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's I'm glad now there's a way to quote unquote diagnose CTE in life.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think people also talk about now, okay, you have this diagnosis.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: What do you what do you do with it?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, we definitely talk about it all the time.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about TES because nobody knows.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's a few people know what CTE is.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if they watch football, they've heard of it, right?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: But nobody knows about TES and in vivo diagnosis.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So explain of that term and why it's so exciting.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll explain a little.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, all it, Gracie, go for it.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go first and then you fill in any blanks if I miss anything.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: So TES or traumatic encephalopathy syndrome is the clinical syndrome that is associated with CTE.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be, so as you are, Bruce, as you're aware, CTE can only be diagnosed post-mortem because they need to see the pathology of the brain.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: TES is like more of the behavioral things that are happening prior to someone unfortunately passing away.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's like cognitive desk deficits happening, there's mental health problems going on, ex uh, well, executive dysfunction is part of cognitive deficits.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And there's sometimes, sometimes even motor dysfunction, but that's depends sort of on what's happening in the brain.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's the clinical syndrome that can be diagnosed in a living individual that has been exposed to these repetitive head impacts.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a way, and this is I've made this point a thousand times.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we actually have a way to do an in vivo diagnosis of somebody that has a high probability of dying and having CT as a condition.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if we have this diagnostic tool, how often is that being used in America?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think uh frequently at all.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure that the only people who are actively diagnosing TES are the lovely neurologists in at the Boston CTE Center right now.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, but this is what we need to work about.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: So in in 2019, the National Institution of Neurological Disourcity Strokes, N I N T S, they did a massive review.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: They had 20 of the top, you know, Cantu was there, McKee was there, Sturm Sam was there, the top people out there.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they literally said, yes, we validate or that we we approved the TES uh protocols as being of significant value, but they need to be validated.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know that since 2019 there's never been one study incorporating TES protocols into any assessment to validate their efficacy?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: I did not know that.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right there is you need to get on that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: You need to do that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: We will we will help you because guess what?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right there, and Claire, what is TES?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's there's four questions, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like let me help you.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: What is yeah, sorry.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, when you the the diagnostic, right?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: That the T the try the TES questionnaire, what are the four questions that you asked to see if somebody could be hurting from or is on the path to CT?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the first one is if you're did you participate in repetitive sports?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Have you had repetitive head impacts?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like the big one.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't check that one off, then they probably won't ask you the other three.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then are you having mental health struggles?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then, Gracie, I'll let you finish those last two.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have no idea.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so let me finish them for you, but you're running.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right, two out of four, you are on the road.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: The third one is is that mental illness progressing?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you have exposure, and they usually say five years, two years in high school.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Then do you have a mental illness?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is do you have and is it progressing?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: The fourth question is do you have any genetic predisposition or familial history of mental illness?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: If that last one is no and the three is yes, look at what we've just done.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: We can literally come out there and diagnose anybody that has a mental illness, that guess what their next step is?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a neurologist.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get a scan, functional MRI, DTI scan, right?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and whatever.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And let's validate with exposure, and then let's get you checked out.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll talk about treatment here in a little bit.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you have just identified right there to young people that's publishing their first article on CTE, right?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: You have just identified, right, a useful diagnostic tool.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is it going to be 100% right?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it does have a very high probability of getting people to look at an alternative approach to their mental illness.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of drugs and therapy, which we know doesn't help heal the brain, we have all these other things out there that that can that can that can help.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Did you girls take a ride in that vestibular apparatus that was at the summit?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: That little spinning wheel?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: We did not.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Man, you gotta check that thing out, man.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: That'll that'll rock your world, man.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: That thing's amazing.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: We felt like when I was a gymnast, I would hang from like the rings.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, and I would like pretty much do that exact same thing.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we were talking about it, yeah.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was too scared I was gonna barf.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, I would definitely barve on that.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I never admit this, but I was a parallel barge guy back when I was in high school.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I was uh I was a I was a gymnast guy, you know, little tiny dude.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean it's pretty wild what it can absolutely do, not only to you know identify if there's a problem, but actually heal the brain.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so we have this amazing study.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: What were the findings and what do you think we because here's a big problem with the studies that we've done?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: How many research papers on CT are out there?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: A lot, but it's all from it's all from one, it's mostly I would say from one group of people.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and how many concussion studies are there?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oof, like uncountable.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we and we're never gonna stop concussions because that's that's nature, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's accents, that's game.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: But yet we've got all these thousands of studies, and we're not moving because research is not required to move.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Research is only required to find the next research study, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's research for research space.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Here, I mean, what's the action?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what when we you've done the study, what do we need to do to take your findings and validate them and do some and make some change here?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're the generation that can fix this.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: My generation, I'm the last of the boomers, dude.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: We, you know, we're we're we're we're we're lost, man.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: You ain't gonna fix us, dude.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the one behind us, these are they're starting to listen.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Your generation can be the generation that can absolutely change how we participate and perceive contact sports and save all these children out of hurting out there, man.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So what were you finding?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, I we the income thing is amazing.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, well, I mean, we talked about the the higher rates of income.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else in your findings that was surprising that you weren't expecting?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I would say we found a couple of pretty cool interesting things for our in our cortical morphology papers.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we were looking at like the gray matter thickness between our contact and our non-contact athletes.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what we found was that our contact sport athletes were exhibiting increased cortical thinning, so which is like degeneration as compared to our non-contact sport athletes.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: So they had thinner brains as compared to our, and it was this, uh it stayed after controlling for age because there is with just typical aging, one would expect to see cortical thinning.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: That just happens with typical aging no matter what.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: But our contact athletes were seeing an even more accelerated thinning than would be expected of their age.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really interesting.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's significant because the gray matter is basically the computer processing part of the brain.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So now you got less computer, less chips, less processing power.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's of significant.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then we also just sorry, Claire.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, I was gonna say it, like specifically, like those regions that we were seeing thinning, like the procuneus and the frontal temporal region, those have been associated prior with um decline in mental illness.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we're seeing that these actual cortical morphological changes um could be the reason that we're seeing these mental health changes.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And let's dive into this a little bit.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why is the prefrontal cortex so impacted by contact sports?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just explain to our audience who are not brain people, you know, the the read the word location, the function.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this so important that we're seeing, you know, the an impact on this particular part of the brain?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's where a lot of the hits are occurring, is right in this area of your head is right.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you know, they're putting their heads down to go into a hit.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that is where a lot of the degeneration and changes are being seen in brains.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Claire, correct me if I'm wrong.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's there is like a specific pattern of degeneration with that scene in CT.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: It starts in the temporal lobes, actually, though.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: You see a lot of degeneration in the temporal lobes.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but which is interesting because that you're not typically hitting someone with the side of your head.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so they don't really know why that is happening quite yet.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that'll be that's going to be an interesting finding once they figure that out.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Part of that, part of that could be is there's a lot of hits that are rotational.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have that that that lateral movement of the brain, you get sharing now that it packs the side.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And there are you know some hits aside, but to your point, you know, the prefrontal cortex also controls all the executive functioning.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everything we do as adults, damage to damage to the prefrontal cortex that was substantiated in your findings, has been associated, as you said, Claire, with significant mental illness for 40 years.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so here we are, we've got two young ladies here talking about things that the adults have been talking about for the last 15 years.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: So what's your plan?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do we what what what's the solution, right?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what's how do we act on this?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: We know, we know this is a risk, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: We know there's there's just no denying that contact sports negatively impacts our brains.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody, there's not even the pro, even the scientists, I've been to conferences and I've walked up the scientists that were funded by the NFL who got up on stage in front of all these brain people and said, Well, we've done these studies where there's no decrease in mental illness or whatever.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they just fudged the data.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I've gone up to every one of them and I said, Okay, do you have any proof that contact sports is in any way beneficial to the health of anybody's brain?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they looked at me and said, Well, beneficial?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: So now we know that anything we know is all negative.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: So why do we do it?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: So talk to me about what your thoughts are on taking this study and just, you know, moving forward, man, and making something happen.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think what like a really important next step is education.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we publish papers at, you know, in these scientific journals, and the average person isn't, you know, going onto Google Scholar at night and being like typing in repetitive head impacts and seeing what comes up.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we try to make them as accessible as possible, but it's not.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: It I don't think research is is super accessible to every, you know, to the typical American or the world population.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I really think it's important to get this information out in a way that everyone can understand it and everyone can see what the risks are.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it's also it, you know, along with the education, it's also important to emphasize that we aren't trying to cancel contact sports.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, football, basketball, any sort of contact sport is, you know, a huge part of the American culture.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's needs to be a way to educate, show these risks, or sorry, to like, you know, not cancel these sports, educate people and show them that there is a safer way to participate where we can all still enjoy football on Saturday and Sunday.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And watch it, because I'm like you.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have a hard time watching it.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Claire, what are your thoughts?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we move ahead?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll challenge the basketball thing, just so you know, there's no basketball or baseball players or tennis players or golfers in the BUCT brain bank.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: None.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's very true.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is very true.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you can't take the concussions out of basketball, man.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Them boys who swing them elbows, those gay ladies, man, they're boxing out, but it's not you know, the head, you know, not there.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: But no, to your point, yeah.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, Claire, what are your thoughts?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we create safer sports and and protect our children?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because they shouldn't bite stuff.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think we talk about a lot.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: We can't sit here and like give you a point-blank answer, but we discuss all the time.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think anyone who understands what's going on, reducing the amount of head impacts is the first step.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need, I think about like my high school or my middle school football teams, and I was out there running track watching them.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: They were having contact practices every single day, five days a week, and then also sometimes on Saturday.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's especially I mean, especially think like a middle schooler.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, work on the fundamentals, work on throwing, work on positioning.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need six days a week where you are hitting heads with one another.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can still, you know, during games, have um like contact, but it's just reducing the number um of hits that occur.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk about a lot the qi um that came out that discusses the amount of head impacts and its relationship to different um mental health or cognitive dysfunction.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we know that reducing the overall number of head impacts could definitely make a large impact.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Gracie, what you got?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, what I was just gonna say, I was like, I think a you know, a big part of what Claire was saying was is educating the coaches of these athletes.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, what and sort of tying back to what Claire said pretty early on was that, you know, these young athletes are looking up to these coaches, you know, collegiate athletes, these NFL players, and it starts with the coach.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think the change starts with these educating the coaches and being like, hey, maybe not so much contact, and here's why.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so here's our approach to making sports safer.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you mentioned the middle school.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know that the NFL doesn't have any contact during the season?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: No contact that's a fact.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a fact.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: The Ivy Leagues also.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had a person on this podcast, uh Mr.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Aji, and he told me they won the national championship.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think he was Division 2A or B, or they're a lower school.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: They won the national championship four out of the six years he was there, and they never tackled in practice.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it's proven it can be done.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: It can be done.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what we're saying is like we all have to say that up until at least high school, there's no contact.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: That brain's developing, it's going through all these developmental processes.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: What do the kids need it for?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's complete unnecessary brain trauma.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Then, if we took the contact out of practice, clear, right?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Five days a week and then game day, that is all unnecessary brain trauma.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: If the NFL recognizes that they don't need to contact and practice every day, why does not every high school do the same thing?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: All right, maybe you do some drills on Wednesday, you keep it down to a low amount, but you focus on the skills.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Skills were in games.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm a semi-pro rugby player, all right?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had I got no problem running into massive tree trunks and dropping them to the ground, and they hurt me every time.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've been knocked out so many times.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Crazy.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, the that's that's for game day.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then you can leave it on the field in game day.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: And guess what?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: How many games are in a high school for a high school season?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is it like eight or twelve?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not so now we're down to 10 days of trauma a year.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then guess what?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: We put on a policy, you don't play back-to-back cuss of sports.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like my son was a football and a wrestler.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, do football and basketball, football and track, football.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, give the brain a rest till next season and then go for it again.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't put your kid in travel and all this other crazy stuff for all year-round play.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if we did that and we took the contact or minimize that in college as well, these kids can get to the NFL.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: And guess what?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Football's safer.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they might have CTE level one or something like that, but you can, you can, and now we got all these ways to fix the brain, right?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: We can get you in, we can keep you in life, and you're not gonna be shooting yourself and running off cliffs and and doing all this crazy stuff.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and that Bramwell, that Wyatt Bramrell video, I implore parents to watch that because that is a young man telling his dad, you got to be strong for me, because I'm not gonna be here.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it is horrifying to know that what happens to him happens to thousands of boys and girls every year.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: And because our coroners, and you talk about I want to, I want to work with you to build a CME course, right?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: For not only physicians and medical people, but psychiatric, suicide professionals, and coroners.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: I talked to Dr.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: William Buckman down in uh in Australia, and he gets to talk to every coroner in Australia one time a year.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Every coroner down there is aware of CTE.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: They can do autopsies to at least give the parents an idea.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: These children, like my son, we did not know for months until we talked to Dr.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Ann McKee and I started reading and all this and writing this book.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is we had no idea.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Families need that closure, and then they can become activist.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: But no, I think you girls are on track, and I think you're gonna make a huge impact in the future.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I am so proud of you for what you've taken on.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I am not kidding you, man.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: We to see two young ladies up there, right?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's up there briefing a piece of paper that shows that we have problems and then wanting to do something about it.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: You got you folks, you ladies need to be that change.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Translational research.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Take that research, translation action, and then come out to nonprofits, whatever it is, and let's make a difference in this.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I we would love to support you uh in your future work.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: So as we get ready to close out, Gracie, Claire, what's next for the Gracie and Claire show?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: What are you guys working on?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned a couple studies.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: How do people find the study that you guys just published?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, what's next, man?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: What you guys got going on?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first off, if you want to find uh all about our lab, Claire spent this summer creating a website for our lab where you can find our contact information, all of our published studies and the studies that we're currently working on.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's at it's C N L A T I U.com.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: So CNL at IU.com.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they can find all of our studies.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: We have a couple really big studies going on.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: We have we have one which I think you might be interested in.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: We call it the omega study, and it's a big grant that Kay got.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big R01 grant, and what they're looking at is to see if taking omega-3 fatty acids helps with helps is like helps um preventative preventative for repetitive head impact.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we're inducing subconcussive head impacts with a soccer heading model, and then you know, there's a group taking uh the omega-3s and a group not taking the omega-3s.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: So they're looking at that, which is potentially pretty cool.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: We also have a vestibular vestibular ocular therapy study going on, which I thought you would also be interested in.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the study that Claire and I are currently working on, it's my dissertation actually, we're looking at the effects of lifetime of exposure to repetitive head impacts in middle-aged female athletes.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just looking at women between the ages of 45 and 60.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is currently in the process of data collection right now.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we're really excited about that.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: More research needs to be done on women.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: They have been completely left out, especially when it comes to CT and concussion.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: If um, like Gracie was saying, on that website, we you talk about all the time, um, like being able to share our information.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, all the way from 2014, there's every single paper um that has come out of our lab so that you can easily download it and read it.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because sometimes it's unless you have university access or whatever, it can be kind of hard to find them.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: So everything is there for people to read.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: And if anyone wants to participate in our study, it goes through every study that's going on right now.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: We always, and when you're saying what's next, motivating people to participate in those research studies is huge.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing because you're bringing stuff out behind that pay firewall.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Where I mean, I was paying, I don't know, 38 bucks to get a copy of a study, and then I find out it really doesn't say that much.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, man, for making for being transparent, you're already changing research right there.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of being like all these other people that like, you know, they they create the research and they put it behind the paywall, and then the taxpayers got to go spend the money to get the research they funded in the first place.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: It should be available.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I cannot thank you for the change that you're bringing.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I cannot look that we're gonna be talking about TES studies, we got a CME study, and then I want to talk about your model because uh just so you know, there's no repetitive impact accelerator gizmos on the market for parents to track this.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm bringing one in from Australia, and I want to run it by you.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: But they're coming to the U.S., they're looking for tests to be conducted.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you actually want to be able to outfit and start letting parents be knowing how hard these kids hit, man.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is that this kids hit almost as hard as adults, it's just not good overall.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for what you're talking.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if you need anything, just reach out.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: We got it.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: So as we close out, another amazing, wonderful, and insightful episode of Broken Brains.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're not thank you enough.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, as we close, to like, subscribe.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there's one other thing I keep forgetting, but push our podcast out.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let people know to come here and listen to these amazing episodes to learn.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget our book is for free on our website.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't have to go to Amazon.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Download that thing, get smart.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget our app on the Google and Apple store, December 3rd, Army, Navy Game, Fuel Concert.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: 3,000 people coming for all you can eat, all you can drink, music.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have tons of veteran support organizations there.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Every dollar goes to fund studies and services for our veterans population.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: We all know how horrible the mental illness impact is out there.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: So please take care of yourself.