Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of Dr Who & the Silurians (5/7)

Transcript

Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of Dr Who & the Silurians (5/7) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:43
  And thanks for joining us here, where we have a hamster, and a
• 0:47
  blunt. Penknife, we've got rid of dr.
• 0:50
  Quinn, the still a Medicine Woman or as we, like, to call
• 0:53
  her dr. Elizabeth Shaw.
• 0:55
  And we also have the pen knife wielder himself, it's Joe Ford.
• 1:00
  So I'm going to hand over to you Joe.
• 1:04
  And you're going to, I think ask some questions from those people
• 1:08
  out there who live on the internet.
• 1:10
  And know if we would do, that's the strangest euphemism I've
• 1:13
  ever heard Jim. Well, I bet you've wiped out a
• 1:17
  corkscrew at an inopportune moment or something like that
• 1:21
  etcetera. Etcetera.
• 1:23
  It's like you. What I went back to listen to
• 1:24
  the first three. You you said I'll start to learn
• 1:27
  how to speak your language and boy.
• 1:28
  Had you okay. Yeah I do.
• 1:32
  I have a number of questions. I'm going to ask you the one by
• 1:37
  Steven Alexander and I'm Steve. Then he asks, where's two
• 1:41
  questions? Kind of go together?
• 1:44
  Whose planet is it Anyway. And if all Doctor Who monsters
• 1:50
  are a metaphor for something. What do you think the silurians
• 1:54
  represent? Oh my God.
• 1:57
  Why me, why me Charlie? Well, I mean, it's it's a, it's,
• 2:02
  it's such a brilliant dilemma because it is the silurians
• 2:07
  planet, but they, they, they went and hid and, you know, we
• 2:14
  turned up and went all well as far as we can, You know, this,
• 2:19
  this is where we're from because it is where we're from, as well.
• 2:21
  We it's not like we landed from somewhere else, so not that
• 2:27
  that's a thing either. But you know, we kind of turned
• 2:31
  up here, evolved here, made it our own and then the people
• 2:35
  who've been here before popped up.
• 2:36
  I mean one it's such a brilliant idea for what you do with dr.
• 2:41
  Who and he's exiled on Earth, is that story.
• 2:44
  Number two, you go as terroristic, said not a mad.
• 2:48
  Just not an alien invasion. We've got this, you go.
• 2:50
  Wow, that is such a brilliant, such a fertile idea, but one for
• 2:55
  the science-fiction, any element of it because it's fascinating,
• 2:58
  but to, for the moral, the moral dilemma, which is, I mean, the
• 3:02
  reality is it's insurmountable as a moral dilemma.
• 3:05
  Unless you want to make the drama about three people looking
• 3:08
  really bored. Talking about, who gets a space
• 3:11
  for region, who gets to live in the Sahara Desert and we've all
• 3:14
  seen that happen in more recent episodes.
• 3:17
  Don't It did not for good drama. Make you such a no way man.
• 3:26
  I mean, you know, I cannot gonna imagine jump, but we sitting at
• 3:32
  the end of the table. Well, Caroline, John goes to
• 3:35
  sleep and goes, well, I'll let you have a space fridge.
• 3:39
  Do you teach a space for Edge technology that will give you a
• 3:42
  Madagascar? You know, I mean, it's now
• 3:45
  you're talking. I think that's one of the lines,
• 3:47
  isn't it? Yeah, we have no Authority but
• 3:51
  nonetheless we are negotiated for the future of the planet
• 3:54
  Earth. It's affectionately
• 3:55
  cherry-picked everything from the story but just haha and
• 3:58
  versus wrong. Yeah, but anyway, so I think the
• 4:04
  beauty of it is is that it's a thorny and sort of into and
• 4:09
  certainly in terms of in an adventure drama you know you
• 4:12
  know it's not going to end with John put you know with with them
• 4:16
  just sitting down to go. Yeah.
• 4:18
  You'll get a live off screen everywhere hot and we'll all be
• 4:21
  fine. You know, it's got to end and,
• 4:23
  you know, it's not going to end with the silent.
• 4:25
  It's living living peacefully amongst us.
• 4:28
  So, you know, you know, you're sort of a headed you know on a
• 4:32
  train to disaster Bill and because it is an insuperable
• 4:38
  problem, it's our planet and it's their Planet.
• 4:42
  But the problem is It's our planet at a different time from
• 4:48
  when it's their planet and suddenly those two times Collide
• 4:53
  and that's never going to end happily which is why it's such a
• 4:55
  good story and why it's such a good idea.
• 4:58
  You know, as a kid when I watch this, I love the idea of there
• 5:02
  underneath us and they've been there all along and this is
• 5:05
  their Planet, but the idea that really captured me was when PO
• 5:09
  he goes. You know, you went into
• 5:11
  hibernation because an asteroid was To collide with the Earth
• 5:15
  and it didn't it went into the orbit of the earth and became
• 5:18
  the moon. I never had to go to sleep in
• 5:20
  the first place. There's a massive irony to all
• 5:22
  of this. Yeah, as a kid.
• 5:24
  I really, really interested me. Yeah, yeah.
• 5:27
  And it's, and it's and I love how it's described in the book
• 5:30
  as well, isn't it? Because they described it, he
• 5:32
  describes it in sort of Sylar, E&E terms, it's the little
• 5:35
  planet, isn't it as something like that.
• 5:36
  And it's, and it's and it describes Dells.
• 5:40
  Last day, doesn't it before they go to before they go to sleep?
• 5:43
  And yeah, Actually and I quite like the fact that it's not all
• 5:48
  just, you know, blundering human stupid apes or whatever.
• 5:52
  That the actual fundamental mistake was, there's in that,
• 5:56
  they, that they made a scientific miscalculation.
• 6:00
  So, it's not that there are totally wronged party either,
• 6:04
  you know, it's a horrible set of circumstances that have
• 6:08
  contrived to bring us to this situation.
• 6:10
  But it's not, you know, neither side is totally to blame Way
• 6:14
  more blame less, you know, it's the whole idea that we are in
• 6:17
  their eyes. Apes of God above our station.
• 6:20
  It's trial of things. Yeah.
• 6:22
  Which won't you imagine they represent then?
• 6:25
  Well, I think, I think they represent that, you know, well,
• 6:30
  and and maybe this is just because I spent the past couple
• 6:32
  of days on Twitter. They represent that it's not all
• 6:36
  about you love. Yeah, you know, they were the
• 6:41
  Emperors of all they surveyed. They were the center of their
• 6:43
  universe. And desperately important and
• 6:46
  and amazing. And we think that about, you
• 6:48
  know, our races well you know where else with the humanity?
• 6:51
  We've got all these great things that we do.
• 6:54
  But actually, you're just, you're just a blip, you're just
• 6:58
  a blip. So, you know, don't you know,
• 7:07
  don't go to sleep, thinking you're the dog's bollocks
• 7:09
  because you might wake up in the morning and find, actually, the
• 7:13
  world is Completely changed around you and you're no longer
• 7:16
  relevant. That's a sign language for
• 7:18
  single. They don't go into here isn't
• 7:20
  it's obviously it never becomes widespread knowledge because
• 7:25
  under that would be interesting to see play out though, like the
• 7:27
  whole of society. Basically, you know, we've got
• 7:31
  it wrong and we're not the be-all and end-all and they do
• 7:36
  have better technology than us and they're already here.
• 7:40
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, there's so much
• 7:43
  you could do and I'm sure you. So much scope I think for four
• 7:46
  stories about you know silurians who where they were when they
• 7:51
  went to sleep and and how that's changed for them you know now
• 7:56
  that they've woken up and everything's a little bit
• 7:58
  different and it might be good for some and it might be bad for
• 8:01
  others. And I think you could you could
• 8:02
  do some really nuanced characters stuff with that idea,
• 8:05
  if you were so inclined. You know, there was a wonderful
• 8:09
  comic strip in dwn. I remember it was cold, but it
• 8:12
  is effective and I think blood He is well, pleased about with
• 8:15
  the idea that what if it happened exposed and Sylar, as
• 8:19
  were living among us? And what that society would look
• 8:22
  like? Yeah, yeah, it's Rich for that.
• 8:26
  And I've yes, I remember that comic strip and I've read
• 8:29
  bloodied as well. And yeah, I enjoyed exploring
• 8:31
  those ideas. Well, it just goes to show.
• 8:33
  This is just first hot ground, isn't it?
• 8:34
  There's yeah, there's more to be done with the same idea.
• 8:38
  Yeah, well and Hulk. Even does it in the book where
• 8:41
  you get a different slightly different takes and and feelings
• 8:44
  on? The same sort of Base
• 8:46
  ingredients because, you know, he was, he was the gift that
• 8:50
  kept on giving. When he came to put pen to paper
• 8:52
  for Target because yeah, because he was, he was interested in
• 8:58
  sort of thoughtful philosophical things and, and character, you
• 9:02
  know, and he didn't and he didn't and he genuinely tried to
• 9:05
  get into the head of his aliens, rather than just portray them as
• 9:08
  a, as a nuisance to be got out of the way, which I think makes
• 9:12
  him very interesting writer. I just, I love how he dared to
• 9:18
  sort of unpick the right wing and the left wing as well.
• 9:22
  Yes. And see what comes crawling out.
• 9:25
  It's usually pretty ugly. Well, again, I mean, you only
• 9:29
  have to spend a bit of time on social media to actually,
• 9:33
  there's, you know, the extremes of both as there's not, actually
• 9:36
  a sliver between them, you know, you know, the methodology is
• 9:41
  pretty, pretty much the same even though they I think there's
• 9:45
  bears in different different worldviews, you know, it's all,
• 9:49
  it's all about, it's all about bullying and power and spiteful.
• 9:52
  This a rusty Davis, could write a Savage, criticism of social
• 9:57
  media, you know, in the Doctor Who story.
• 9:59
  I look forward to him today, in the meantime, I would love to.
• 10:05
  I would love to see him do that chick.
• 10:08
  And you go to town, he won't hold back either Willie.
• 10:10
  No. But this is the fellow that Tony
• 10:13
  Blair rain. In bombs down on the earth and
• 10:16
  killing ten percent of the population.
• 10:18
  Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's not too subtle sometimes
• 10:24
  but yeah and yeah, he turns the satire up to 11.
• 10:29
  I love it. Terms turn the load of
• 10:32
  politicians into a bunch of gassy windbags.
• 10:36
  Yeah perfect. Brilliant.
• 10:39
  It's the gleeful - but instead we will go in to episode 5 of Of
• 10:44
  Doctor Who in the silurians, yes, and experience some of this
• 10:48
  form philosophy and excellent character work okey-dokey, you
• 10:53
  can't count as it. Well, we are going to start
• 10:56
  watching episode 5 of Doctor Who and the silurians in 321, Isn't
• 11:10
  it lovely to see it in color again?
• 11:14
  I'm going to say it on those blue ray says those colors pop.
• 11:18
  Yeah, I mean, I think I will be interested to see season seven
• 11:22
  because I remember being quite, you know, disappointed.
• 11:26
  I did mention this in the earlier episodes didn't either
• 11:29
  that that actually the black and white that I had was slightly
• 11:32
  better picture quality. But so the colors always been a
• 11:35
  bit of a compromise. So I would be very interested to
• 11:38
  see what they Has to do with with with season 7 when it does
• 11:43
  come to Blu-ray because you know with this this is with this,
• 11:49
  they just have the VHS color, don't they?
• 11:51
  And the yeah and the black and white print.
• 11:54
  So, you know that's not working with with as good quality as
• 11:57
  some of the later Seasons but I think what they do, what they've
• 12:00
  done with With those season. Nine stories is incredible.
• 12:06
  I mean, Paradigm looks amazing. Do you think he said in John,
• 12:11
  Pertwee contract? They has to go and once per
• 12:13
  story, yes, it's not. His greatest is not, its
• 12:17
  greatest skill. Is it?
• 12:19
  The being in physical pain and apparel?
• 12:25
  I say a lot, C, major Baker's looking after the doctor I like
• 12:28
  that is that, you know, they are, they are fighting for
• 12:31
  different teams really but he's still a decent sort Baker, even
• 12:37
  if he's just even if he's wrong. Now I'm sure in the book, this
• 12:41
  chat private Robbins. I'm sure he jumps off a Chasm
• 12:45
  and dies. As I was always quite
• 12:47
  disappointed. When he didn't do that in this,
• 12:48
  he just sort of goes he just has a bit of a you know a bit of a
• 12:51
  turn. Doesn't they will not do this
• 12:53
  one moment isn't where heaters Atomic us, sir?
• 12:56
  And it's yeah, I think that's really well acted as in.
• 13:00
  Yeah. That and that's the last we see
• 13:01
  of them. Whereas I'm sure in the in the
• 13:03
  book, he then goes a bit doolally and jumps in together
• 13:06
  and there's a picture of Major Baker when the silurians leave
• 13:10
  him in the cave. You know, any and he revives and
• 13:13
  he's got, he's got the plague, but there's a, there's a shot of
• 13:16
  Baker, lying down unconscious, and the silurian towering over
• 13:20
  him. I'm sure in Doctor Who magazine
• 13:22
  it kind of said, the silurians you are a soldier to his death
• 13:26
  and so they don't be interpreted that picture to be that bit from
• 13:30
  the book. So even even Doctor Who magazine
• 13:33
  sort of perpetuated that that myth if you like or that just a
• 13:36
  particular Edition did. So I was really surprised when I
• 13:38
  watch this episode went. Oh that guy didn't die.
• 13:41
  Does he die next week? Note never see him again.
• 13:45
  I can't help but notice that Paul Darrow was in that last
• 13:49
  scene underplaying about he's terrific in this.
• 13:59
  I've never seen him on the plane.
• 14:01
  No, well it just goes to show you know what what he could do
• 14:06
  if he wanted to. I mean he he largely chose not
• 14:09
  to and that's fine, that's good. You're right, I was watching
• 14:16
  those salaries and obviously I'm watching this with a nice sound
• 14:20
  and I can tell from their body language, what a character is.
• 14:25
  Yeah, and the old Silo in is a guy called Dave, Carter, who's
• 14:27
  in so many Doctor Who's he's in. I mean, he's a, he's a
• 14:33
  primordial Inferno. He's, he's the museum attending
• 14:36
  to Terror of the autons, so he's, you know, he's almost
• 14:38
  every other destroy, his biggest role is grierson in, in the
• 14:44
  Android. God helps Tom Baker, in episode
• 14:46
  4. Realign the realign the radar
• 14:50
  and it's almost like battery. Lex is doing his last directing
• 14:53
  job because while give Dave a decent part but he was he was
• 14:57
  Jon Pertwee quite liked him. I think Dave Carter but you can
• 15:00
  see why because he's, you know, he's just a sort of you know,
• 15:04
  one-liner Merchant or background artist and he but he invests a
• 15:09
  load into this sort of ancient lizard like body language and
• 15:12
  again they would have had a choreographer or anything like
• 15:15
  that. That you know how, you know,
• 15:16
  sort of every all the jumbo is favorites, were pulled in for
• 15:20
  Planet of the spiders, was Dave car in there as well?
• 15:23
  Following off. Dave, Carter is not in that it's
• 15:26
  of the spiders, which is a bit odd, but I wonder if he'd gone
• 15:29
  off to do other because he did, he was, he was a regular.
• 15:32
  I mean, this isn't that the same time, but he did lots of other
• 15:34
  work and he was a regular. He was the barman in auf,
• 15:37
  wieder, same pet. I think series to which, again,
• 15:40
  I think he'd started doing as a, you know, he gets a line here
• 15:43
  and there and they sort of built up the Barton little bit.
• 15:46
  Now I wonder why he vanishes. I'm just trying to think what
• 15:48
  his last. What is last Pertwee role is?
• 15:52
  Maybe they fuck man. Maybe it fell out of favor.
• 15:55
  You never know. No sure not.
• 15:56
  But Come back to you on that. There's a, you know, you were
• 16:02
  saying about background all sporting artists there.
• 16:05
  There's a wonderful part from our favorite Peter miles in one
• 16:09
  of the commentaries where they're talking about.
• 16:11
  I think it's one that you run actually we're so well, Pat
• 16:14
  Gorman and he goes and he said he had a problem is not a lack
• 16:17
  to sir, it's in episode 2 of invasion of the dinosaurs.
• 16:23
  And I have to point out that Pat government actually gets a
• 16:25
  credit in that episode. But doctors know what I suddenly
• 16:30
  realize. Oh, there's a bit of a hierarchy
• 16:31
  here. Yeah, and the sad thing with
• 16:37
  Dave Carter is we've never actually found him and it's hard
• 16:41
  to find somebody, you know, Dave and Carter and not exactly,
• 16:46
  uncommon names, but because he was around until relatively
• 16:49
  recently, it's always been a bit of a surprise that we've never.
• 16:55
  We've never turned him up. I think, I think we've decided
• 16:57
  he is, Is that now. But but we weren't even sure of
• 17:02
  that which which seems really, you know, really odd.
• 17:06
  It's a bit of a, it's been a pleasure.
• 17:08
  He's of course, he's his last, his last part, we roll, is he's
• 17:13
  in? He's in it, he's in the episode
• 17:16
  before. The one we were just talking
• 17:17
  about with Pat Gorman. He's the guy, he's one of, he's
• 17:20
  one of the guys that processes The Doctor and Sarah in episode
• 17:24
  1 of invasion of the dinosaurs, okay?
• 17:26
  Quite exciting that he's a sergeant in that.
• 17:28
  At and then I think he doesn't I don't think again comes back to
• 17:32
  the Android Invasion. Not the fellow who says oh,
• 17:34
  really how original? No, no, no, that's um, that's
• 17:38
  the guy who takes over for Barry Howard in hi-dee-hi that's been
• 17:41
  heiress. Oh, it's also your encyclopedic.
• 17:47
  Knowledge of actors never ever fail.
• 17:49
  So impressed me it's a misspent youth Jenna?
• 17:53
  No, no. Also there are there are other
• 17:55
  ways. Some of misspent Youth.
• 17:57
  No, huh. I bet yours were much more fun
• 18:02
  talk. You know, who's watching?
• 18:05
  Listen, she's brilliant situations in this story like so
• 18:10
  she knows where the doctor is. She knows what he's trying to do
• 18:13
  and she's trying to hold out from all of them as it.
• 18:17
  Yeah. And she and what I like is that
• 18:18
  she kind of copes when the doctors not around and and, you
• 18:22
  know, she can take another strand of the story, which is
• 18:25
  what which is, kind of what you want with a companion.
• 18:27
  Really, the companions that work best are the ones that can that
• 18:31
  can open other Avenue of Storytelling and not need the
• 18:34
  doctor to hold their hand or I mean, yes, I understand.
• 18:39
  They're also very useful for exposition and explaining stuff
• 18:42
  but again you can be a bit more Artful with it and you can you
• 18:46
  can introduce another character for that purpose.
• 18:48
  If you really need somebody to ask stupid questions and have
• 18:50
  the companion have a bit of agency, you know, doing their
• 18:53
  own thing. There's a whole sort of extended
• 18:56
  sequence in ambassador's of death.
• 18:57
  Isn't it where she's kidnapped? Yeah and then we have all those
• 19:01
  fantastic seizures with dr. Lennox who she know you were
• 19:05
  respected scientist was and standing up to Reagan it in the
• 19:10
  aliens revealing themselves. You know she's got a whole
• 19:13
  strand of the story there and she holds it brilliantly.
• 19:16
  Ambassadors of death is one of the greatest Doctor Who stories
• 19:19
  of as fantastic in that online. It saddens me.
• 19:24
  So that I mean, I was brought up to think it was, you know, one
• 19:26
  of the bag ends of the Pertwee over, you know.
• 19:31
  And it was it was, it was always the one that, you know, years.
• 19:35
  It never quite worked. Bloody bloody lights.
• 19:37
  Absolutely. I love ambassador's of death.
• 19:39
  Yeah, I must know. When you, when you finally saw
• 19:41
  it, I must been an eye-opener. Yeah, and it was one of the very
• 19:44
  last ones I saw. All because I wasn't
• 19:47
  particularly bothered about getting it, because it was, and
• 19:51
  then, and then I met some fans actually.
• 19:53
  And I didn't really meet many fans and they got, they got all
• 19:57
  the episodes, you know, and they said no and ambassador's of
• 20:00
  death. And I was like, really.
• 20:01
  And then they should, and I knew about the, the opening titles,
• 20:05
  I've read about them, but I had not imagined them.
• 20:08
  You know, I knew the title came in.
• 20:09
  I didn't know, it's screamed in and they went kapow and they
• 20:13
  showed me the first, you know, minutes.
• 20:17
  Something took off from. Yeah, yeah, which is as good.
• 20:19
  A cliffhanger has any stories ever had?
• 20:21
  And it comes at the beginning and I went, and I went, oh, wow,
• 20:25
  you know, and it was a real cause I went in with low
• 20:28
  expectations and so then I, you know, I borrowed it off this
• 20:31
  friend of mine and it catapulted it into my shootout, in the
• 20:36
  warehouse. I was like, this is amazing that
• 20:39
  Cliffhanger with right cut it open.
• 20:41
  I was like IMA just be the next one.
• 20:43
  Now, Is nothing and yet, it's amazing.
• 20:49
  It's all in how, just what how he says it, you know, and, and
• 20:51
  the pacing and it's where the way that Michael Ferguson cuts
• 20:55
  it and scores it and have any beans me five.
• 20:58
  Yeah, the pacing of that. The pacing of that is perfect.
• 21:03
  Oh, love it, you know, but bringing it back to dr.
• 21:06
  In the Salah and I realize I did bring up Ambassador there, so,
• 21:08
  that's my fault. There was a sequence there, a
• 21:12
  second ago, between two silos, where they were looking like
• 21:14
  projectile weapons, Yes, I was a really smartly written seen as
• 21:19
  well. Yes.
• 21:21
  And an i, this, this is where he's drawing.
• 21:24
  And I, well, I love all this race memory stuff as well.
• 21:27
  I mean, I'm doing a deep dive. Currently into quite a mess in
• 21:29
  the pit. And there are similarities, you
• 21:32
  know, the, the the idea of an of an ancient alien force that that
• 21:38
  awakened. Some primal thing within us and
• 21:41
  Malcolm, Hulk explains it, quite nicely in the book where he
• 21:43
  talks about when dogs. Scratch the ground beneath them
• 21:47
  and that's about clearing and longer ask that.
• 21:49
  Of course we don't have any more and it explains how a sort of
• 21:52
  race memory or Instinct works. And that's a that's a that's a
• 21:56
  really powerful idea that we're sort of prone to subconscious
• 21:59
  forces that we can't help that when I say, people, some jump
• 22:03
  back from things nervously because that's its memory Of The
• 22:06
  Snakes in the Grass and things like that.
• 22:08
  So, sort of a primal thing which means that we're slave to some
• 22:11
  kind of, yeah. You know, biologically is for
• 22:14
  their age. Yeah.
• 22:15
  Yeah. Which is Of which is a
• 22:16
  fascinating idea and Nigel kneale uses.
• 22:19
  It brilliant. Inquisitiveness in the bit to
• 22:21
  something explain away, you know, feelings of racial Purity
• 22:25
  and all of that sort of by lava. I love the way Pertwee shakes
• 22:29
  his head there and Dave Carter's not quite sure what to do and
• 22:33
  this this other guy Nigel Johnson was an actor, he was
• 22:36
  Timothy cumin but Peter miles knew him as well and he still
• 22:39
  around he was a Publican or something but they wanted
• 22:41
  somebody tall. Is this that what playing the
• 22:44
  the yeah. Yeah, he's very animated, isn't
• 22:48
  it? But I think it really works
• 22:53
  because they are so totally distinct.
• 22:58
  Well, that's great from a chimpanzee.
• 23:01
  So major bunch of age about us, great, isn't it?
• 23:05
  That's basic. That's you lot for the kids
• 23:10
  watching as well. Absolutely.
• 23:14
  I think I think these costumes are magnificent.
• 23:17
  I think I think the characterizations are great.
• 23:20
  But yeah, and the race memory thing, the Nigel kneale thing.
• 23:23
  That that idea that. Yeah.
• 23:25
  That You know, we have stuff that can be unlocked, and I
• 23:33
  think anything that sort of brings us back to the dawn of
• 23:36
  time is somehow, you know, and Primal forces is somehow really
• 23:42
  frightening, because it suggests things that are bigger than we
• 23:46
  can ever be. It suggests something,
• 23:48
  uncontrollable that we can't do anything about, and when you're
• 23:51
  like that, you suddenly feel like you've got no agency and
• 23:54
  you feel suddenly very vulnerable.
• 23:56
  I think that's really a clever thing is there are moments when
• 23:58
  you're really anxious or you get overwhelmingly angry, you know,
• 24:02
  you're tapping into some of that.
• 24:04
  Yeah. Do you know what?
• 24:06
  Scares me. I sort of along the same lines
• 24:08
  is, you know, I feel like we have this sort of veneer of
• 24:11
  politeness, you know, to get by in society.
• 24:15
  But it's when you're Puttin ceej and that's some great drama
• 24:18
  comes out this, I'm thinking of midnight where you're in a
• 24:21
  situation and aware that veneer drops and just you're real Ugly
• 24:27
  base emotions. Come out.
• 24:30
  Yeah, what was it? It was it JG.
• 24:32
  Ballard who said, you know, show me your civilized society.
• 24:36
  When they've turned the water off, you know where we are.
• 24:42
  There's a gossamer thin little membrane separating us from, you
• 24:48
  know, killing our next door neighbors.
• 24:50
  In order to, you know, get get a get a cup of typhoid free water
• 24:57
  for our child, you know, maybe I work in Reese.
• 24:59
  How it is. A fact, you know, the things are
• 25:01
  hard to come by the moment. I mean, it can get very ugly.
• 25:04
  Yeah, it's away from people. Yeah, I know.
• 25:08
  It's extraordinary, isn't it? I in fact, I got into trouble.
• 25:12
  What's the social media? But I said something because I'd
• 25:15
  seen footage of people dumping each other for a Telly but
• 25:17
  Tesco's that was and I said you know, I did manage to get a flat
• 25:20
  screen tell you when I went out today but at least I retained my
• 25:23
  soul you know and so on. Sorry.
• 25:25
  Oh are you saying Working Class? People have no sorrow.
• 25:28
  No, I know loads. Because people who don't punch,
• 25:31
  people Fratelli at Tescos nothing to do with class.
• 25:34
  It's to do with whether you will punch somebody for Italian
• 25:36
  Tesco's. Either bring class it to it.
• 25:38
  You did. It's there was a, there was a
• 25:43
  sequence just there where and you just wouldn't have it on
• 25:46
  television now where they're all sitting around the table and the
• 25:49
  camera, pans around every character in silence and then
• 25:53
  settles on the telephone and you would not waste 15 seconds of
• 25:58
  it's lovely. Doing that and it's suspenseful
• 26:01
  I think we kind of lost something a little bit.
• 26:05
  Yeah, and I, you know, I totally believe all these years.
• 26:07
  And now Miss Dawson, of course, in the, in the book, she's
• 26:10
  totally different, isn't she? She's because she's sort of
• 26:13
  she's, whereas a minute because there's a couple of pictures of
• 26:15
  her. She's gotten a miniskirt, and so
• 26:16
  long, blond hair, and she's in love with dr.
• 26:18
  Quinn and and but I think she, you don't see her again.
• 26:24
  She's with dr. Quinn, when he gets killed and
• 26:27
  you don't see her again. So remember when I watch this
• 26:30
  for the first time going oh she's still in it.
• 26:32
  What's going to happen to her and then she just vanished She's
• 26:35
  off screen and they go. She's got the plague, which is a
• 26:38
  shame. But obviously, we need her after
• 26:40
  his death to put that spanner in the works that way too.
• 26:45
  Yeah, I think it would have been more satisfying had.
• 26:48
  We had a final moment with with Miss Dawson had, she hung around
• 26:54
  and we'd seen what happened to her.
• 26:56
  And you know, she either learned the error of her ways or or, you
• 27:00
  know, provided one final spanner in the works rather than a kind
• 27:03
  of nobody ever wants to. To be dispensed with off-screen.
• 27:07
  You know what you do? Want to turn up and watch that
• 27:09
  soap. You've been in for 10 years and
• 27:11
  have somebody say oh I've just died in a car crash.
• 27:14
  The I'll really I'll thanks a bunch unless it's an incredible
• 27:18
  sort of off-screen death. You know, we call away just at
• 27:21
  the right moment. Yeah.
• 27:24
  But I think you also want to be part of the process, you know
• 27:27
  it's like this it's like somebody you know it's been
• 27:29
  waiting to come back to us hope for you is that then it's just a
• 27:32
  throwaway piece of dialogue and they say well, your uncle People
• 27:35
  died. Three years ago, ever, you go
• 27:37
  last me. Plug it.
• 27:38
  Didn't it. This is.
• 27:39
  Yeah, that's the picture of I love that shot that the Timothy
• 27:43
  Combe is a really good director and I think it's such a good job
• 27:49
  on this. It's such a shame.
• 27:51
  Isn't it? That going over budget men, that
• 27:55
  did you watch the documentary that he was in where he was?
• 27:58
  They were going about sort of lots of locations.
• 28:01
  Yeah. And he really sort of
• 28:04
  heartbreakingly. Says I would have loved to have
• 28:07
  done more. Yeah.
• 28:09
  And I think it was unduly because it's because it was a
• 28:11
  policy. You didn't have to obey it you
• 28:14
  know. It was Barry Letts his choice to
• 28:16
  sort of punish him for that. Really if he'd wanted to employ
• 28:21
  him again, I don't think very. Let's a superior would have
• 28:24
  stopped in because her I think this is very well directed, but
• 28:28
  I think mind of evil is even better.
• 28:31
  My mind, people's cracking. It's at the Stuff in that.
• 28:36
  And again, it's got of it. It's got a very it's got a very
• 28:39
  sort of gritty plausibility about it.
• 28:41
  But I know that I rather like this, just like imagery from
• 28:45
  that, like that's a high angle shot.
• 28:48
  When young fellows in the chair in episode one coming down and
• 28:52
  it's very clinical or the master with the missile behind him or
• 28:56
  them scaling, the walls of the castle, you know, and they just
• 28:59
  see it into my brain. Fabulous, fabulous know and I
• 29:03
  think he does wonders. With this, especially as, you
• 29:06
  know, you have quite a lot of scenes of, you know, the phrase
• 29:09
  has been coined squabbling rubber, but they, but they, they
• 29:14
  really work and I love this. I remember when I was
• 29:17
  recommended this by Colin at the place who did me my boot, my
• 29:22
  videos, and I said, and I said, isn't it?
• 29:25
  Is it seven episodes isn't it a bit long because books not that
• 29:28
  long. He said I know.
• 29:30
  Because you know because it earns its seven episodes because
• 29:33
  just when you think you've got one sir, Get the plague Story
• 29:35
  coming in and I think you're fake story is fantastic.
• 29:38
  And actually, if you break it down to what it is, it's got
• 29:42
  some wonderful set pieces, but essentially Doctor Who solves it
• 29:44
  by sitting in a lab squeeze in Saenz, you would never have
• 29:49
  today as well. I don't think there's no,
• 29:51
  there's nothing in the Cure that is reflected in the pot.
• 29:55
  It's not like he goes, oh yes. That substance.
• 29:57
  We found in episode one that did this to let us that that is but,
• 30:02
  you know, it's a crow. My caste It gets it gets sort of
• 30:07
  away with murder slightly in terms of but it's done so well,
• 30:12
  what I think if you were in that situation, you would sit there
• 30:15
  with a load of test tubes, doing a bunch of science, trying to
• 30:18
  figure out the Cure and that's exactly what we do.
• 30:20
  But yeah but I think in a in a doctor who now if you had that
• 30:24
  The Cure would have to be embedded in the plot already
• 30:30
  because otherwise the viewer has no.
• 30:32
  I'm trying to think of what the with it.
• 30:34
  What I mean? Yeah.
• 30:36
  Tough to me you know a bit like how the cure for the greendeath
• 30:39
  is dr. Jones's mushroom, mmm.
• 30:42
  You know it's organic more than one sense but it's organic to
• 30:46
  the story. I love, I love this.
• 30:49
  Our Heroes major say to you are ill.
• 30:52
  Yeah. Very very ill and he's and he's
• 30:54
  not unkind but he's not going to go anywhere you if you just
• 30:59
  stand on the table if necessary, you know, that when sorry for
• 31:03
  major Baker when John A wee screams, you know, looking on
• 31:07
  it, you pay attention. And I really like the makeup of
• 31:12
  the of the plague as well. I think it's really.
• 31:15
  It's simple, but effective, but it was sort of bruised and poor
• 31:24
  old major Baker. So we've got we've got on the
• 31:31
  other side, we've got the doctor, and on the South Side,
• 31:34
  we've got, you know, the old man on our slide.
• 31:37
  We've got Baker, and the Brigadier.
• 31:39
  And on that side, there are some parallels here, aren't they?
• 31:41
  Absolutely, and I think it's so sad that Abdel or old sailor and
• 31:46
  is killed. And I like the way he repeated
• 31:49
  because he doesn't. He go.
• 31:50
  I'm the leader now and then when the other Solarium, buggers off,
• 31:53
  he goes, I am the leader. Now he's moment to himself where
• 31:57
  he very sort of goes, yeah, I'm digging this.
• 32:01
  I've been waiting for this day. Yeah.
• 32:04
  It's a bit like one of our, one of my favorite.
• 32:06
  It's a bit. Like the there's a bit an enemy
• 32:07
  of the world where the scene ends and Milton Jones is sitting
• 32:11
  in his chair and it just it just Waits before cutting away and
• 32:15
  he's sick and he really likes sitting in his chair.
• 32:17
  Cause it's his powerful chair that shows his position and
• 32:21
  built in John's just spends a moment going.
• 32:23
  I'm really enjoying sitting in this chair and it's just a tiny
• 32:26
  moment. That's just gorgeous.
• 32:30
  An actor can bring them with me. Oh, I mean little touches I love
• 32:36
  always happens in these sort of disease drivers but I did I do
• 32:39
  love how this very quickly gets out of control.
• 32:43
  Yeah. And they economically sort of
• 32:45
  suggest, you know, all the first Broad's, you know, it's the
• 32:49
  scale of it grows very quickly. Yes.
• 32:52
  It's I think it's very nicely done in the book as well.
• 32:56
  Which you can't have it. Where doesn't it?
• 32:58
  They stopped the train, don't they?
• 33:00
  That Masters is on and he gets off the train and he gets a cab
• 33:03
  with, with a cab driver called jock Tangy.
• 33:05
  I think he stopped. And, and so, because he's trying
• 33:09
  to get back to London. But in so doing, he then infects
• 33:13
  jock Dengue, huh, who then effect and it's like the sort of
• 33:17
  Opening titles of survivors, you know, you kind of see it, it's
• 33:20
  red. And we have a suggestion of that
• 33:23
  here. He's not feeling very well and I
• 33:26
  love the way Peter miles does that line to himself but
• 33:29
  essentially, yeah, Masters is off to to spread the plague, but
• 33:34
  I think again now you'd see it. You'd see people getting touched
• 33:37
  and you'd see it spread. Oh, this is so that's the end of
• 33:39
  it. You look at look at that makeup.
• 33:42
  Was blotches all over his face and I like the way they don't do
• 33:46
  a close-up. And he said it's not a moment of
• 33:49
  deputies, it's okay, we're in the shit, isn't that?
• 33:53
  Yeah, it's a wonderful Cliffhanger and, and again, I
• 33:56
  think I think with our, you know, predilection for money
• 34:00
  shots these days. We'd we'd expect to Big
• 34:03
  close-up. And actually I think because I
• 34:06
  just still don't quite know what that what that makeup looks
• 34:10
  like. It's all the more intriguing to
• 34:13
  me. It's more than more unsettling
• 34:15
  because I only kind of got a glimpse of it, you know.
• 34:17
  Times less is more and I love a cliffhanger that isn't kill
• 34:21
  them. Kill them now.
• 34:23
  So a cliffhanger that is the doctor going.
• 34:25
  That's just the first you go. Ha ha.
• 34:28
  Love it. We will post pandemic.
• 34:30
  This has a bit of resonance now as well.
• 34:31
  That's just, it's just, it's just like to say.
• 34:36
  It's all a government conspiracy and wake up you sheeple, okay?
• 34:42
  So I need to reinvent myself as an edge.
• 34:44
  Lord, should should cheeping use.
• 34:46
  Open up a document? Who slot?
• 34:49
  And I'm a bit short of cash. Well, far be it from me to
• 34:54
  spoil. What was I had so much fun with
• 34:56
  that episode. I'm going to ask you a question
• 34:58
  now. From Jonathan Morris will join
• 35:01
  his friends. Who asks, how many episodes
• 35:04
  shorter? Should it be.
• 35:06
  Oh, go fuck yourself. Johnny, and I don't know how
• 35:08
  many square on Doctor Who you go and Chase.
• 35:11
  None Johnny none, because all of the extra Jeopardy that is
• 35:16
  layered on Works within the plot.
• 35:19
  It's all very exciting and none of it, you know, none of it is
• 35:22
  sort of vacuous, sort of showpieces, you know, that
• 35:28
  sometimes pad things out. I think it's all, I think it all
• 35:31
  develops. The story very nicely.
• 35:33
  I think the plague stuff as, as we've discussed that.
• 35:36
  It's kind of got out of, you know, within one bound got well
• 35:41
  not in one band in several quite laborious short steps but I
• 35:46
  don't find that episode Episode, we're back to watch tedious to
• 35:50
  tall. I find it gripping and exciting
• 35:51
  because it's a it's brought another piece of drama into it.
• 35:54
  I love the slow build-up that it has.
• 35:56
  I love us not seeing the signed area until the end so three and
• 35:59
  again, I don't feel like sometimes when you're watching
• 36:01
  the first episode of a Dalek story, you go.
• 36:03
  We're just killing time to that first Cliffhanger.
• 36:05
  I don't feel like that in this story.
• 36:07
  I feel you're being drip fed to something, but whilst it's the
• 36:11
  stuff is dripping. It is, it is slaking their
• 36:15
  thirst, it's landing on your tongue, you know, and And I
• 36:19
  don't think there's anything. I would I I think with all of
• 36:22
  the seven parties, the last episode is always a bit of a
• 36:24
  damp squib. It's a curious one.
• 36:27
  I think they learn how to end stories better.
• 36:30
  Once they put the seven parties behind them and I don't think, I
• 36:33
  don't see a reason why our seventh part of should end on a
• 36:36
  damp squib. But I think all of the last
• 36:37
  episodes of The Seven parties are slightly, less than what has
• 36:42
  gone before with the possible. Actually exception of this one,
• 36:45
  which is, yes, I think this is the exception.
• 36:47
  It has a wonderful that particularly that coder.
• 36:50
  It's bizarre. How much of a gut punch it is
• 36:52
  give you kind of an inevitable conclusion.
• 36:56
  Yeah, no it's a beautiful but that's literally the ending that
• 36:59
  like, the last couple of minutes but I think the final episode
• 37:03
  is, you know, a bit lower key. As, you know, it's, it's all
• 37:06
  kind of countdowns in basis, which happens in each of the
• 37:10
  episode sevens of season seven, really.
• 37:13
  And and by then, a lot of people are dead.
• 37:16
  So there are isn't even that many People to talk to.
• 37:19
  But I said I would not, I would not lose them if you know.
• 37:25
  Would mean losing Travis, Blues Traveler?
• 37:31
  No, I don't think there's anything that I would that I
• 37:34
  would lose. So none, Johnny Morris, you're
• 37:38
  Cheeky Monkey and you know, I'll just mention I'll just mention
• 37:45
  the accent of Schultz the astronaut in the 10th planet to
• 37:51
  shut you up because he wants very rude article about the
• 37:55
  accent of the actor playing Schultz in the 10th about who
• 37:58
  was actually an Australian actor using his own accent.
• 38:00
  So to be that means Johnny can now not say anything about
• 38:04
  anything evidence. Everything he says is wrong, I
• 38:09
  saw this podcast is now we're selling me.
• 38:13
  Do my own offense, a archaeology you wrote one line.
• 38:17
  An article in a doctor who magazine, 10 years ago, that was
• 38:20
  incorrect. So now, everything you say is
• 38:23
  open to question and morally redundant Doctor Who fans never
• 38:28
  forget.