Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / Unexpected Change & Hidden Grief: How to Find New Meaning 2|04
Transcript
- Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Lost Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we're here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Daiana, LMHC: Let's dive in. Cassandra, LMHC: So we talk about quiet losses on this show, and today we're gonna reflect on our incredible conversation with Kristy Halverson. We're gonna unpack the heavy emotional lifting she shared about during her profound season of change. Daiana, LMHC: We are breaking down the reality of cumulative grief and how to navigate the unknown. When life goes completely off script. If you've ever felt isolated in a multilayered sorrow, this episode is for you. Please take a moment to subscribe. It means the world to us. Cassandra, LMHC: Because today we're tying Kristy's lived experiences directly back to the framework of grief. She lived a life of coddiwompling which, as we discovered earlier, is a real word. Daiana, LMHC: I did not know that. Cassandra, LMHC: That was my favorite part of the conversation. Daiana, LMHC: I was like, I think it's cute that she I I was like, I think it's cute that she you know, creates her own words. And she's like, No, that's a real word. okay. Cassandra, LMHC: It's a real world. The word coddiwompling means moving purposefully towards an unknown destination, and she does this in her airstream. But she learned that grief still narrows your vision down to a pinhole, no matter how prepared you think you are to survive. Daiana, LMHC: If you haven't listened to Kristy's interview, I would suggest you pause right here and go listen to it. Because that's what we're going to be talking about. We're going to reflect on her her book, but her experience, her life. And she went in depth with it with us in our last episode, episode three. So this is episode four of season two. So just go back. It's so worth it. Cassandra, LMHC: And the cool thing is not to give any spoilers, but she talked about her life beyond the book. So if Daiana, LMHC: Mm, that was my favorite part. Cassandra, LMHC: mm-hmm. So if you haven't had a chance, I'd also like to plug her book a little bit too, because it's it's a spectacular piece of work. She did Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: a great job. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I I I don't I'm gonna be jumping around. I'm just gonna go wherever my mind is right now. Just like Cassandra, LMHC: Okay. Daiana, LMHC: Christy, right? Is that she she wrote this book and there's a story before even writing this book, right? she took excerpts of like her journal and she just c made a compilation of all of these experiences. But the story that she shared with us, like you said, happened after. And how many times do we think that when we reach a goal or the finished product is like we made it, or it's the thing, or it's what's gonna make us happy or complete? it's the predictable. And the irony is that the whole her whole whole journey was about. living off the grid not following a destination is more of that inner what was she called it the inner the tickles of her soul like to Cassandra, LMHC: Yes. Daiana, LMHC: really really follow her intuition and then life comes and does its own thing Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. that's kind of why her book is called The Perfect Unfolding, because we can look in hindsight and see how everything unfolded perfectly, even if we weren't aware of it at the time. I think she even touched on like the idea of if you go ahead and tell someone that don't worry this is the perfect unfolding, they're not gonna understand until much, much later, much, much more after the fact. because it could be very stressful in the moment or even disheartening to be like, Yeah, this is the way it's supposed to be. It's the perfect unfolding. It it it's not helpful. But having the awareness after the fact can lead to some level of clarity. Daiana, LMHC: It does and I as you were saying that I'm thinking like like most people, I'm like, but how how can I know while I'm in it? Right. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And for some people it might be faith, it could be hope, it could be past experiences, like it's worked out before. Maybe it can work out again. It's self-trust. Because being in the unknown or feeling and believing that you are in the unknown is scary. E even though I believe, after we're done recording is unknown, even though I have Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: a schedule planned. So it it's truly always unknown. But when we're in it multi-layered, whether like she talked about, you know, breakup. Leaving her home and everything she knew, starting this project, then her mom getting sick and all of these things, we don't plan for those things. Cassandra, LMHC: And like she called it, it's like a bell curve of grief, right? Like it sort of illustrates how sorrow compounds heavily and sequentially during all these devastating issues. And then it can kind of swoop back up again. Like sometimes you're at the bottom of the bell curve, sometimes you're at the top of the bell curve. But you don't really know when you're in it where it's gonna lie until usually you're on the way back up. And that's where that cumulative grief and the disenfranchised sorrow comes from. is that unknown and unnamable time that we times that we have. Daiana, LMHC: Everything everywhere all at once, that movie, it that just the title alone is my favorite because that's how it feels. And it a lot of times it just feels unfair. If I'm going through grief already, why are all these other things happening? Why is everything falling apart? Cassandra, LMHC: And sometimes there is no why. Daiana, LMHC: And that's the part you were saying, like not that we know of. And Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: meaning doesn't come till after. But if you look at behind you and you look at even jobs that you've had, somehow that job you didn't like prepared you for the next one. And if it wasn't for that job, you wouldn't have this one kind of thing. Cassandra, LMHC: I think we talk about that quite a bit. That's like something I firmly believe in is that every experience I have gets me ready for the next one, good or bad. And if I didn't have the experience that led up to that, then I wouldn't be able to know how to handle the one that I'm in. And even when it's hard no, I'm just thinking, even Daiana, LMHC: I think that comes with okay. Cassandra, LMHC: when it's hard There's a there's a level of gratuity that I can feel for the experiences that I'm going through when I step back and give myself a little bit of space to breathe. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, even when you're in it, to have that grit that gratitude for what Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: is I think that a lot of this does come with age and experience as well. Because like I said, like it would we've gone through it. And at the same time, because we're older, a lot of us feel like we shouldn't be going through this anymore. Like when is this gonna be done? So there you know, we can't escape the feelings that come with loss. Cassandra, LMHC: And there's always something new and something different that's gonna come up. Things that we didn't expect. And yeah, maybe we shouldn't have to go through it. But as we get older, other people get older too. And so we enter into a whole different realm of aging parents, aging aunts, aging uncles. And we never really know what's gonna happen. something that that Christy touched on was the ambiguous loss that she felt about her mother's fourteen year terminal cancer journey. Where she had to step in as a full time caregiver and introduced was introduced to all of the crushing realities of all the different types of grief, the the anticipatory grief and having to find a way to function and even letting go of the due date of her book. Daiana, LMHC: that broke my heart that she something that she worked so hard for and was so excited for when it did happen, her mom had just passed and she just was like, Whatever, just just release it. Just let it, When you're when she was sharing about her fourteen, like fourteen year terminal cancer, right? When you're in it, you don't know if you're gonna live a year, a day, or a day. Right. But now to see that she lived fourteen years, that's why to me it matters how we go through our hardship. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Because depending on how we handle it, it still determines our quality of life today. And you don't know if it's gonna be four hours, four years. You don't know. That part you just don't know. You just hear the word terminal or you're going through something really heavy and we most likely will always feel like it's gonna be forever. Cassandra, LMHC: Until it's not. And Daiana, LMHC: Until it's Cassandra, LMHC: that's where that anticipatory grief comes in. Because you just sit and you wait and you wait and you wait. The interesting thing about Kristy's story though is she didn't just sit and wait. She did the next right thing for what she needed to do while staying in constant contact with her mother, but she she picked up and she went and she moved and she did and she experienced and she reported back and she Did all of the different things that she needed to do for her while Caring for this this woman that she loves so dearly. Daiana, LMHC: something that that came up for me as listening to her story and just like you said, like this leaving while in initially when she just sold everything, her house and just started, it's like and something that I don't know if she I don't think she was running away from, but it's something that I I mean I personally battle with every day is like societal expectations. or just soci how society functions. And sometimes I'm sure many of us have felt like just want to go off the grid. Like Cassandra, LMHC: Uh-huh. Daiana, LMHC: where can we go for simpler lives? even now I I I curate, we were talking about the episode before this one, the second episode about how we curate social media. And I was so proud of how like well curated it is. But now I'm I don't even know how it started. I'm getting so much information about recalls of food. And if I stay there looking at everything that's being recalled, I'm gonna feel like I can't feed my kids anything, I can't eat, and so now I have to now filter that out. Yes, get information at the supermarket or at where I'm buying food, but I can't know about. every single thing that is contaminated and then the why and then all of these things. So just the way societal expectations of who you should be at a certain age by a certain time. Where do you think we get that from? Like because we're a certain Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: age. We're not supposed to be going through this. I remember last season when we talked to Melissa, she talked about I'm not so I am a grown woman. Why am I in this bad relationship? Like I should know better. So But that comes from somewhere. Right. So that goes Cassandra, LMHC: I am not. Daiana, LMHC: to show you have to you always have to adjust these things that that, work and then all of a sudden don't work as far as it comes to coping with it all. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. And moving into like what Christy did was she moved through life with this this purposeful uncertainty. Like Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: she didn't know what she was doing. Like in in the summer she goes north, in the winter she goes south. And that's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Say that again. It's like it it almost sounds like an oxymoron, like it doesn't match. Right? No, no, no. That no no no no no. Not that part. That that is like perf like perfect yeah. Purposefully. Cassandra, LMHC: In the summer she goes north, in the winter she goes north like a snowbird. the purposeful uncertain purposeful uncer uncertain. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. It's like you're uncertain, but you're you're intentional and purposeful about knowing that things are uncertain. Right? It sounds like backwards, but it's it's it's the radical acceptance, right? Where we've talked about I I'm gonna have to accept it, I'm not gonna know everything that ha is going to happen, but I'm gonna be intentional in moving one foot in front of the other. Cassandra, LMHC: It makes me wonder about like the her theory of tickles of the soul, like moving where it tickles Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: your soul. And I think about all the things that I do on a daily basis and all the places I have to be and all the people I have to show up for. And it just feels like there's very little space for that. But to shift into this this idea of purposeful uncertainty offers a lot of freedom. But like you were saying earlier, it's trading security for freedom. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I I think that helped me during COVID as well, that thought of life is always uncertain. And this is brand new what we're going through. But how can I navigate it? Yeah. That extern Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: external security does feel grounding and it does make you feel safe. So but those what she did was listen to to to her intuition. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And she followed it, which is not something that I'm always great at. Sometimes I like to think I know best as opposed to like my intuition, which typically knows best. Daiana, LMHC: Hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So I'm like I talk about this with a with a group of friends and it's just like I'll hear turn left, turn left, turn left, turn left, and then I'm like, nah, I know better. So I turn right and I end up in a ditch. Like it's not Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: listening to the intuition. It's not listening to those tickles. It's it's just Trying to over control the situation. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I see that a lot in my own life and and in people around me, that we get used to bypassing our intuition. And when we bypass our intuition over and over, that's when we start to not question our id well, yeah, like question your identity, kind of lose yourself. Because you've lost track of of your own like internal compass. Cassandra, LMHC: If you ever had it to begin with. Daiana, LMHC: the thing is that I truly believe we do. But when we are when we allow to just to to only see the external and and the circumstances and maybe if we were raised in survival mode and always like watching out for people's moods or am I safe and and or being very parent like parentified and taking on a lot of adult tasks too early. I can see that, but I truly believe that it is, it is within us. But if you're depending on what you go through, you may not have learned to trust yourself, to trust your intuition or to hear that. Because you weren't afforded it. Cassandra, LMHC: And I think what I meant was not whether or not you had the internal compass, but whether or not you have the awareness that you have the internal compass. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, that. Yeah. Yeah, if you're going through so much you don't you don't even know you don't know who you are either. She talks about her identity within that, within letting go. Right? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: we're talking about losing ourselves and in turn, let for her letting go of all these societal expectations, expectations of herself, of her worldly possessions, and living a very simple life. She found so much joy and adventure in it. And I I found that in a much smaller scale. When when I got when I moved out of out of my out of my home that I grew up in, I had so many little boxes of little like, you know, tickets and I don't know, mem whatever. Just a ton of stuff that I was like, this is a lot to to take with me, or kind of wanted like a clean slate. And I thought I was going to I was going to fall apart and feel destroyed and I didn't I felt s like relief to let go of stuff and I and I remind myself of that now like we want to hold on to things but now when we have the family I'm like that's more to organize clean I don't want it get rid of it Cassandra, LMHC: makes me think of You have to let go to find yourself. And that's exactly what her story is. And it starts off as letting go of this idea of what her life is supposed to be and of what she's supposed to do. And these ideas that she's supposed to have and the the white picket fence and the you know, whatever it was that was manifesting to her and letting go of all of that to find out who she really was. Daiana, LMHC: We always find challenges 'cause then she she went she went into a relationship that she was just so in love and things were were going great and she within this journey had to let go of that relationship too. So it's like we I don't know, I think that sometimes you have to trust that things are happening for you and not against you. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Especially when you're forced to with a direct confrontation of such big unknown and and deep identity loss. Even if you find your identity, you have to find it again and again and again and again. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And again, again, yeah. Yeah. Isn't that funny? It's like we're we're within ourselves, but we always have to keep finding ourselves. And when we talked we've talked about before about losing friendships and relationships, that it all goes back to your identity and who am I now. And we don't like to ever be feel rejected either or in a relationship, if it's a romantic relationship, we kind of could imagine our future and then when that relationship is not there, now that whole future has to change without them. Cassandra, LMHC: And that goes back to that trusting your internal guidance, right? Daiana, LMHC: Uh-huh. Cassandra, LMHC: So listening to that compass, listening for your intuition, listening for those tickles of your soul, whatever you want to call it. There, you know, if there's a faith involved, like there there's all sorts of different ways of putting it that related, but all it is is you're listening for the guidance that comes from within you or externally from you. Not necessarily like a person. But just a feeling like this is the next right thing. And it is a journey that demands profound internal reflection when you lean into that. Daiana, LMHC: The and the thing is to have that, how do we get that internal reflection? That's what Christy did. She simplified her life. She got rid of a lot of all the noise. And even the stuff that we have is part of the noise. It is noise. The the objects we own, the things that we're surrounded by, and our phones. You know, even working too much, being busy so much. Sometimes people not differentiate, like I'm busy, but a good type of busy, which means maybe more quality time or whatever. In order to have that internal reflection and like you mentioned earlier, like that awareness of your internal compass, we need to be in silence. We need quiet moments to riff to just pause. And that's what mindfulness is, right? Like it's a it's a pause and it's awareness, observing and describing without any judgment. And it doesn't have to be for hours. It could be two minutes, one minute, and throughout the day, you just pause. Cassandra, LMHC: I have a friend who's very pro meditation. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And so we talk about it like what's it like to meditate, what's it like to listen, what's it like to be still? And it's really, really difficult for me to just be still. So I find that my meditation happens most frequently in like an active kind of way. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I can hear things and connect better when I'm coloring or when I'm driving or anything that allows me even working out where it's just me inside my head. I can't have carry on a conversation with the person next to me. Or in the car, I'm driving in silence and people are always like, why aren't you listening to music? I'm like, this is the only quiet time I actually have is when I'm by myself in the car on my commute. So let it be silent. Let it be informative. And that's okay. Daiana, LMHC: We're used to of course it's it's it is okay. When we're used to having so much noise, I remember that when I was in the car, if I wasn't listening to music, I was listening to a podcast and someone told me about driving in silence and I did it for maybe thirty seconds and I was like, this feels really uncomfortable. It felt so weird. And thirty seconds became a minute, and little by little now I I sometimes I'm like, I'll put music on later, I'll put something on later and I get to the destination and I didn't put anything. you have to be safe though, 'cause you could go on to autopilot and you're like, How did I just get here? Cassandra, LMHC: I used to do that when I would commute from like college to home. I would get to the end of my four hour drive and be like, I have no idea how I just got here. That is the weirdest feeling. Talk about intuition. Daiana, LMHC: It's scary to me. That's happened to me. That's so scary to me. I'm like, anything, you know, could happen. I'm like, how did I even do that? It's so scary. Cassandra, LMHC: That's an extreme form of coddiwompling Daiana, LMHC: When it when it comes to meditation, there is there is meditation that you do with movement as well. There are like different practices. I can't think of them right now, but I know that different practices of meditation through movement. I think what's also happening is that you're calming your nervous system at the same time. And to make it a deeper practice is just to notice what is what is tense and what is relaxing and noticing what's tense and relaxing it and you know sweeping away those thoughts as they come in. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah, I'm not great at that part. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It takes it's truly a practice. That's what they call Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it. It truly, truly it's a practice. There are so many different parts of this book that we are not even gonna get in, you know, we don't have time to get into, but she does talk about her mother daughter bond. she does talk about the unexpected romance and And she does talk about a bike wreck that she was in. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Meeting all the you know, people and these moments like a New Mexico sunset. I don't know what's in New Mexico or Santa Fe, but that there's always in songs. My daughter was just telling me that recently and we looked at the map and like, What's there? Why do people wanna go there? But and maybe it's for the sunset. Cassandra, LMHC: Quite possibly. Daiana, LMHC: So this is a this is a book that really takes you through a journey, the perfect unfolding or perfect unfolding, seven years of life changing solo adventure. One year that broke me open. Bro Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I I like the the words that she chose there to that broke her open. Yeah. So today instead of playing a game, we're gonna have just a couple of reflective questions. And Cassandra, when you're thinking about the perfect unfolding, what is challenging to you about unexpected changes? Cassandra, LMHC: You're not gonna read the rest of that question that that saw me deep to my soul. I feel I feel I I feel like you need to. Daiana, LMHC: Do you want me to? All right. Well, we talked about, I think it was episode one or two, and Cassandra said how she is lives by her calendar. And that if it's off track, she struggles with it. So as someone who values. The illusion of control and lives by a calendar. How does Kristy's philosophy of living completely in the unknown, the perfect unfolding challenge your approach to unexpected challenges? Cassandra, LMHC: First of all, I feel overly seen by that question. Like values the illusion of control, like Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I didn't wanna f I don't want it to be offensive or anything, you know? Okay. Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: it's not offensive. It's hilarious because I talk about my control issues pretty openly with with a large group of people. And it it's pretty well known that like I value this illusion of control. though luckily I've had enough experience to know that that's all it is, is an illusion. So the perfect unfolding honestly goes along hand in hand with How it is I feel like my life unfolds. Like despite the fact that if it's not on my calendar, it's probably not gonna get done. Whatever I'm doing today is getting me ready for tomorrow. And whatever happens tomorrow is probably a reflection of whatever's happened today. And I just don't know it. Like I don't know what's gonna come next, but I'm always grateful for that answer when it comes. So when it comes to unexpected changes. As much as as my neurodivergent brain does not appreciate change, I can appreciate the usefulness of it. I can appreciate what it does within my life. I can appreciate how it impacts whatever's about to come next. And I think it was Lee way back in season one that said, like, we can't see the painting when we're in the frame. I don't always know what's gonna come next, but I'm honestly usually pretty grateful that I don't know. It would A, take all the fun out of it and B, it would kind of ruin the ending if we knew everything that was gonna happen next. So the challenge Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, you meant Cassandra, LMHC: is not nearly as extreme as it would seem, just because I do believe that my life folds unperfectly or folds unfolds perfectly or imperfectly as it's meant to be. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. You mentioned gratitude multiple times today. And and gratitude is something that also helps your nervous system when you're able to think of something that you're grateful for. That's why it works because it gives you that feeling of calm or peace or joy or love or whatever it is. And then also the perspective. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: You're giving yourself what's another perspective to what I'm experiencing. There's actually a trend that I'm loving right now that it says people put different things in the front, but it's like perspective is crazy or perfect perspective like, you know, it's it's everything or whatever. It talks about perspective and they tell their story one way. That leaves the listener and the person feeling like dismal, like this is terrible. And then they retell it in a way where they are looking for what to be grateful for. They're Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: looking at not what was taken away, what did I lose, but what did I receive because of this loss. That's one of things I love and hate about being an adult is that anything that you receive, you're inevitably letting go of something. Whether you know you are or not, if you're receiving, you're something is is being let go. So we can look, use that perspective, not for toxic positivity. Toxic positivity does not acknowledge the hardship and the pain. But what you're doing is like, I did lose these things and this does hurt, and I have also gained. Yeah we get Cassandra, LMHC: That's a really good and valid point. And I would really like to look into that trend a little bit more. I had never seen it. Cause perspective is everything. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I've seen a a few different ones. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Like I can tell you a story that happened to you and I, and then you could tell a story that happened to you and I. And they're gonna be wildly different stories. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: Wildly. Daiana, LMHC: Completely different. Completely different. That's why they say, like when there's like criminal scenes and stuff like that and and that the eyewitnesses are like the least reliable because I believe. Cassandra, LMHC: Because everyone's is so different. So my question for you, Daiana. Are you ready for this one? Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: So all throughout the the the interview, Christy had a lot of different messages that were really deep and meaningful. And one one that I thought was kind of interesting was that she talked about feelings and how we feel things. And like she had a friend that was like, I'm really anxious about moving. And what turned out to be was she was actually very excited. And those two feelings are really similar. So She suggests letting emotions exist without labeling them or bad or labeling them as anxiety or labeling them as Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: something that could be perceived as negativity. So as a person who by profession heals helps people to heal by naming things, how Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: do you balance the clinical need to identify emotions with the spiritual freedom of just letting them be? Daiana, LMHC: That's a good one. And I love these two questions because it challenges how we naturally function. And then also, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: like you're asking me clinically. From a from a clinical perspective, and just for how I function as well. There is, and and this happens with diagnosis as well. I would throw diagnosis in there too. If naming An experience, whether it's a type of grief or naming an emotion or labeling the diagnosis, if it's something that serves you, that is making you better, that it becomes a tool for resources. then I would say label it. If it's something that is wearing you down. that is draining you, that brings on shame. That slows you down, that doesn't give you the result that you're actually looking for, then let it go. There are sometimes I have clients that want to get diagnosed, and that's not the first thing I do. A lot of places you go and they give you a diagnosis, and the first two, three minutes they see you. I don't diagnose unless it's required for something that the client needs. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Right. I don't work with insurance, but there are times that getting the diagnosis, a person feels so seen, and now they can separate that diagnosis from themselves and say, I'm not bad or I'm not broken. It's not there's something inherently wrong with me, it's that I am living with this condition. And now I can see all of these things that are similar to me and that or you know, whatever the behaviors or the symptoms. And now I can see what people do or what resources there are to help me. And it kind of separates it. It doesn't make you feel that everything is on you and and And that you have to figure it things out, you have to reinvent the wheel. It doesn't, it helps you not feel alone. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: But then a diagnosis or a label to an emotion, if it's not serving you in any way, and and the way you believe, it's just like I don't want to be labeled, or I don't want to be seen as this, or this is not my identity, then it does is not helpful. So I think it's very individual. And it does go with listening to your intuition. Right. And that's where you're that silence and it's like, how is how is this feeling? Because if that, you know, like she was saying, excited and nervous feel the same in your body. You sit with it for a little bit. It's like, no, like I'm I'm I'm like scared and thrilled. And you can be scared and thrilled at the same time. Cassandra, LMHC: Except in roller coasters. I'm just scared. Daiana, LMHC: If my head is not hitting back and forth because I'm so short, I I could enjoy it, but and before we go on to our next segment, I am going to put this in the show notes. more than one question. These are gonna be questions for you. Listener to answer and for you to reflect. And if you want to email us your answers, that would be amazing. The email is also in the show notes. This is just an example of one of the questions. Is for you to think about a major loss. What were the invisible or secondary losses attached to it? Where in your life are you burning the midnight oil when the healthiest choice might be to actually surrender? Cassandra, LMHC: that's a good Daiana, LMHC: Right. Cassandra, LMHC: one. Daiana, LMHC: I know. It's a multiple one. we could talk about that, but we're gonna move on. We could probably talk they're telling you this book has so many great topics that that we can just talk for a long time. But yeah, the the there are a few questions there for you to reflect. And then to wrap up today, we're gonna move on to our favorite segment, the Living Lost Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift because it's not about fixing grief. It's about finding the strength to carry it. Daiana, LMHC: So Cassandra, looking back at everything we've talked about, and we've reflected a lot, we've reflected quite a lot. So it may be something you've already said. But regarding Kristy's journey, what's one lesson you'd like to leave our listeners with today? Cassandra, LMHC: we talked a lot about my belief in the perfect unfolding. And I actually absolutely love that it has it has a name now. It has a purpose that helps me. putting that it's almost like giving it a face. Like Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Cassandra, LMHC: how I wander through life, how I coddiwomple through life is through a Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: perfect unfolding. And just the reminder that just because it feels Like the end of something doesn't mean it's not the beginning of something else. Just because this identity that I've worked for might not be the identity that I'm meant to have for the all of my life doesn't mean that it's wrong. Doesn't mean that it's bad. It just means that I can approach it with acceptance and know that maybe the door is closing on one part while it's opening on another. And if in the midst of that happening I forget, I forget that this is all perfectly unfolding, that's okay because it's gonna do it regardless. It's gonna happen no matter how I feel about it. So that gentleness and acceptance of whatever comes next is peaceful. There's a lot more peace there than there is struggle. There's a lot more hope than there is anxiety. So just to live in that in-between space and to be comfortable there is something, like we said earlier, to be grateful for. And I'm glad to have heard her message and I'm glad to have been part of this interview because it really it made a difference for me. So how about yourself, Daiana? Daiana, LMHC: When I step back at her story, I I think about like the word journey and how we're all on a journey. And I would say if if you read the book or if you don't, if you listen to these next, you know, these past two episodes, if you reflect on your own journey and notice, like Asandra was saying, the beauty of things. Notice when you thought you had control. But you really didn't, right? I would also encourage you to notice when you're carrying something that you actually don't have to. But you know, whether it's societal expectations, familial a expectations, sometimes we carry things that are not for us. Maybe because we're just used to acting a certain way. But I you know, when you look at the thread of Kristy's journey to listen to your intuition, to let go. Remember to when you let go, you're gonna receive. Right. And you're not gonna feel it. You're not gonna these are things that you don't feel un unless you experience them and you're willing to experience them. And that levity, that feeling of of levity, that there's this other side of control that if you're not controlling something and it's not on you, then it's again not that responsibility. That's part of the load that I'm talking about too. It's you're not carrying that. Something that pops up for me is like when I'm ra I'm raising my kids. If I think that my kids Whole life only depends on what I do or don't do. That's really heavy. But if I accept the reality that they're influenced by other people, that they're their own person, you know, that that not having control kind of also takes some pressure off. I think that's, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: you know, where. That levity part is taking away pressure that we put on ourselves. Where we live a very stressed life. And sometimes it's we're just used to doing that. Thank you, Cassandra, and thank you to our listeners for spending this time with us. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode. And if this conversation reminded you of someone who needs to hear that their grief is valid, please share it with them. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we're not your therapists, and this does not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like you'd like to speak with someone, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: Catch you next week on The Living Loss.