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A Mom's Unique Role In Helping Her Husband Lead Well · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  When you look back at your kind of high school career, you look forward to college, what you want to see, I think culturally, what we want to see is that if you somehow erase the names at the top of both of those, you know, those transcripts or those bios, you would not be able to tell the gender. And that would be considered like a huge win, I think, culturally. Like, I, I don't want to be able to know the gender.
• 0:21
  when I'm looking at what you've accomplished and what you're aiming at in the future. And I think we're saying, can we have a conversation about that? Is that a good idea? Like, is there a reason to actually potentially be able to tell the gender based on that? And maybe not make that the goal or make that an accomplishment. Are we taking a step forward or backwards instead of forward?
• 0:48
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 1:06
  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Family Teams podcast. So as you guys know by now, if you've been following us, we kind of are bouncing back and forth between fatherhood conversations, motherhood conversations. It's all family related. It's all things that I think we all should be listening to, but we really want to make sure that we're getting the perspective from as many different folks as possible about a lot of these really current topics and also really helpful ideas around fatherhood, motherhood, and just relationships.
• 1:33
  building out a family team in general. So we're going to have two conversations today. One is going to be a little bit more on the cultural side, and then we're going to talk through, I think, a really helpful tip, one that has really impacted our family. So we're waiting for April. She'll hopefully be Zooming in here soon, and she'll help us with the second conversation. But right now, I'm joined by some friends of ours that come from various places. So Donna Chung is here from Vancouver, Brittany Stewart from Texas, and Kristen Netting from...
• 2:01
  the beautiful state of Ohio. So we've all interacted on various platforms in different ways, Family Inc., 1000 Houses, different places. So thank you all for joining me today.
• 2:12
  Thanks for having us. Yeah. We're excited to interact and get to talk through some of this stuff. We're going to start with a conversation that Zuby had with Lila Rose. And so one of the things I find really helpful, you know, one of the things I like about Zuby, he's sort of an influencer, YouTuber, rapper. He's also a Christian and he really thinks through a lot of the cultural issues in ways that have been super helpful to me. So I wanted to share something he was thinking.
• 2:35
  interacting with Lila Rose about and just get y'all's just take or thoughts, reactions to what he shared. So I'm going to, all right. Man, I have so many beefs with, with feminism, but you know what perhaps is the, is the one that I find sort of darkest and saddest.
• 2:55
  And this is, I'm sure there will be someone who thinks this is me being benevolently sexist. But I think it's that essentially it's been decided that societally, culturally, economically, politically or whatever, the standard that women and girls should aspire to in everything is the male standard.
• 3:21
  So all of these things, the goal of them is for women to be more like men. Okay, so women have certain bodily functions, menstrual cycles, capacity to get pregnant, breastfeeding. It's like all of this stuff is a curse.
• 3:36
  And we need to use technology and medical interventions and all of these things down to killing your own child so that you can compete with men. Right. Even when people talk about the quote unquote gender pay gap, which everyone knows has been debunked for decades. But even that even bringing that up, I'm like, why is the measure how much money you make? Mm hmm.
• 4:02
  What about, I mean, do people not realize actually most fathers would like to have more free time and they'd like to spend more time with their children? It's like, what about time? What about who spends the money versus who earns it? Why is it just, you know, males compete on lots of different dimensions. How strong are you? How much money do you make? How much cool stuff? How many, how much resources can you gather and whatever?
• 4:24
  Women generally compete in different ways, but it's just like, no, this male standard is the thing that you need to aspire towards. If a young woman is like, hey, actually, I wanna get married and I wanna have a lot of children, and those are kind of my metrics, and I wanna raise great children and a family.
• 4:42
  even non-feminists or people who wouldn't consider themselves feminists often still look like, wait, is that it? Or is there something? Yeah. What about a job? What about a career? What about all these other things? Or just little things people say. So I'm going to let him finish his thought. This kind of, I love how he's teasing this out. This is really helpful because I think
• 5:02
  I just don't, I don't know if I've heard somebody say this, this bluntly or clearly that, that one of the subtle things that is happening is that there are things that men really optimize for really tend to care about. And men tend to live in a very competitive environment where they are thinking about how to be the best at certain things. And so they're comparing these specific things that really relate to elements that, that are traditionally masculine and what has happened.
• 5:28
  within the feminist movement is that instead of optimizing for things that are uniquely feminine, the same way that men tend to optimize for things that are more masculine, what women have tended to do, or what at least feminists have tended to advocate for, is to make sure that we have an opportunity to compete for those sort of more traditionally masculine elements, that we're going to optimize for the same things.
• 5:52
  And this is this is this is strange. You don't have to optimize for income, for example. You can optimize for for lots of quality of life elements. You can optimize for for for family. And part of what I think we need to be having conversations as men about is I feel like a lot of what I've really wrestled with on the fatherhood conversations.
• 6:11
  is, is to really challenge men about the fact that we are optimizing for things that really build us, build us up as like, as individuals, as opposed to things that really bless our family. But I think for women, a lot of times that's more intuitive. Like there's, there's oftentimes women, just not all women, but, but, but
• 6:29
  compared to men women do tend to optimize more uh more often for things that are going to bless the family so i think what he's pointing out here is really interesting so i'll let him finish the thought and then i'd love to get your guys reaction like when people say that stay-at-home mothers don't work i laugh in their face i know i hate that i'm a stay-at-home mom with four kids and you're like oh so you don't work and it's like what do you do yeah what do i do i'm
• 6:56
  I raised children. I serve my community. I mean, it's a lot of work. Yeah, but a lot of work. But it means that in people's brains, they've just associated even the word work with working for some company, having a boss and earning a paycheck. Yeah. Earning a paycheck in that sense. Whereas work historically, that could mean.
• 7:17
  going out and hunting or gathering or looking after your land, looking after your household. Work isn't just the thing that you do for money. So it seems that in our whole generation and younger ones and perhaps the generation above us, there's just been this perversion of aspiration and...
• 7:37
  It's this homogenization of the genders where you just don't really want men and women to exist as categories. This borders into the whole trans thing. And it's just this sort of gray mush of interchangeable cogs. I think the coolest thing about women is that they're not men.
• 7:56
  The greatest thing ever. For a man who's like looking for a woman, that's like the number one thing. You're not a man. That's like the first step. So it's like, why are you the things that. And I think it's great that men are not. Like my husband is a man and I'm so happy. He's a manly man. Yeah. And it's just I mean, I was just thinking about Canada like that's crazy. Man. Yeah. So I know it's like it's hard not to laugh at that, but it is.
• 8:24
  I think it is really a valuable thing to point out. Like it's important that we keep these categories separate, that we talk about them separately, but it seems like our culture is unable to do that. That, that there is this drive and it's getting, I think, more intense, this drive to try to have like a single gender category that both men and women fit into.
• 8:44
  And then to judge everything from his perspective of equality, assuming that the genders are identical when they're not identical. And I think where this gets really important for, you know, for our conversation is that.
• 8:59
  how do you build a family team if you're constantly smashing up these, these genders? So I'd love to get your guys' take. April, welcome. I know that like we were telling people you're going to zoom in here a little bit later, so feel free to chime in as well. But yeah, what is it that stood out to you guys about that conversation or the way he's describing that there? Would you like to start? Yes, I'll jump in and just say the first time I listened to it, I thought,
• 9:24
  We all want what we can't have. That's like in our nature. And so all the way back to Eve, obviously. And then the next thing I thought of was Donna or Lot's wife. Like she looked back and I think like we have to focus on who we are and whose we are. Our creator created us with an identity already.
• 9:52
  And when you start looking at the grass on the other side, right? The grass isn't always greener. We need to water where we're at. So that was just my first thought is we all want what we can't have. That's in our nature. That's human nature. Yeah.
• 10:09
  100%. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about the kind of two brothers motif in Genesis, where there's resentment, you know, sibling resentment. And it's understandable at some level, when you have two males in one family, that that could stoke resentment, and that there's a lot of challenge there. But it's, it's very unusual that that
• 10:28
  a desire to have what the other has is crossing a gender category. Like traditionally that wasn't an issue. Like it was like, of course I don't want what my husband has and he doesn't want what I have. That's what makes us a team. We're incredibly different and we have very different desires, different abilities, different roles. But that is being erased. And this is, and so now the, the kind of tension or resentment that you might see between two brothers is actually entering into marriages. And that's a very strange development. Yeah. Kristen, what did this start for you?
• 10:57
  Well, it's graduation season and I've attended homeschool co-op graduations and I just attended a public, large public high school graduation. And in both places, this issue came up. The public high school, the ceremony was pretty much led by the Honor Society students. They called the names. They were decorated in school.
• 11:27
  metals and cords and sashes and they were all girls all of them there was not a man other than the the board of education president who spoke on that stage and the person i knew who's graduating is going into chemical engineering with over a 4.0 and all of this you know
• 11:50
  accomplishment in her belt. And then I attended a homeschool co-op graduation. There were obviously a much smaller amount of children, but, or graduates there. And even in that Christian circle, someone asked one of the female graduates,
• 12:12
  what she was doing. And her mom stepped in automatically told this whole grand story about how, you know, she just is gonna stay put for this amount of time. And, you know, who knows what it all, she's just justifying.
• 12:30
  This daughter wants to stay home and prepare herself for motherhood. I know it. It's written all over the way that she lives life. And even the family was having a really hard time justifying that. And I think we just face that so much. We say, I'm just a stay-at-home mom. And it's just...
• 12:55
  not adjust. So I've just seen that play out very tangibly lately. Yeah.
• 13:03
  I think it's actually really important to talk about graduation ceremonies because I think graduation ceremonies are maybe the most, I think the most influential moment where we have a public ceremony where we tell young people the kind of the, the, the optimized or the proper trajectory of life. What is the purpose? Like that, that's the whole point of the ceremony. We're celebrating what they've accomplished, but there's also an understanding that
• 13:29
  That when there's speeches given or conversations had, it's sort of pointing children, right?
• 13:36
  men and women, boys and girls in a direction. I was, I was very struck on, I remember my high school, my high school graduation party, somebody pulled me aside and said, and told me, Hey, I got to tell you something, something that I think is really important that you know, when you transition into this next season of your life, what you're about to experience when you go up to college, those are going to be the best years of your life. So enjoy it.
• 14:02
  And I was like, I was shocked, like, and really grateful because I was like, oh, finally somebody told me really what the, like, what peak life is all about.
• 14:11
  And then, of course, I experienced college life and I've experienced a lot of years since then. Now I look back on that, I would take issue with that assessment that the absolute pinnacle of life is when you have the least responsibility, when you have the most ability to indulge your own impulsive desires. That is peak life.
• 14:33
  That is not biblical. We are told exactly when peak life happens from a kind of a life, the arc of a life story from Psalm 128. And it is a grandfather and grandmother at a table with their children and grandchildren. It says specifically, behold, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the Lord. It's not about your college years, but this story is really difficult. So there's a lot being stirred up. And I do think that
• 15:00
  You know, is, should there be gender, like a little bit more of a gender distinction conversation had at graduation ceremonies when you are pointing, are you going to point men and women in exact same direction when they are around 18 years old? Is that, is that an, is that an optimized message to give to, to men and women? I think our culture has said yes. April and I were just at a graduation ceremony a few days ago for one of our daughters who graduated our fourth. And you know, one of the things I said to April is I looked over and I said,
• 15:28
  Do you remember that when you graduated,
• 15:32
  did the, did the guys and gals wear different colors? And she said, yeah, they did. And, and I'm like, yeah, they did when I graduated too, but I don't see that anymore. Like it is kind of weird watching them because you know, they're, they're in, because of the hat and the robe, it's really hard to tell the difference between a guy and a gal unless you're like, look really close. I don't think that's a big deal. I don't think it's like, oh my gosh, you know, stop everything. Something terrible has happened. It's just a, it's just, it's just an observation that we were both were making. And,
• 15:59
  It's like when there's an opportunity to accentuate the difference, we choose not to take it often. And when there's an opportunity to blend the two genders, we tend to take that road. That's a trajectory culture is on in general. If you just look for it, you'll see it in very subtle ways. I think that's a very small and subtle way. I don't think it's a big deal, but it's something interesting to note. So April, what are your thoughts? I know that you saw that. We had that conversation as we went through that graduation experience.
• 16:30
  Yeah, it was very bizarre. I mean, everyone looked the same from the stage. It was really hard to tell. Unless the girl had really long hair over her gown, it was very hard to tell. But also in the program, because this was kind of like a homeschool co-op graduation, there were only 19 students. So they each kind of had like a paragraph on the program about all of their accomplishments throughout high school and then what their future plans are.
• 17:00
  And it was such a stark contrast, kind of like what Kristen's saying, with 18 of them talking about all of their accomplishments from high school. And then they're heading off to college and what their major is going to be and all these things. And I had asked Jeremy to write Elisa's, our daughter's little bio thing. And it starts off, Elisa is a beloved daughter of the prior family.
• 17:28
  It's like calling it her daughter identity. And then he talks about a few things, like she's an artist and some other things. And then at the very end, he's saying she's going to go off and do some mission work. And then she'll come back and help with the family businesses while she's preparing for motherhood.
• 17:49
  And she read it and we were joking. She's like reading through all her friends. She's like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. None of them say anything about family or getting married or being a mom or anything. And so she, I'm like, well, how does that make you feel? And she's just like, I, this is crazy. Like, I feel like, I forget the word she used, but like alone, but like alone.
• 18:14
  not ashamed kind of like I'm the only one but this is I'm not gonna do what they're doing that's for sure so it's bizarre in the Christian world I think how pervasive it is yeah man yeah that's a that it's just not it's not appropriate to call that out and I think
• 18:37
  And this is a difficult topic because I think that what's happened, one of the reasons anyone listening to this who isn't really familiar with family teams is going to be like, this is incredibly dissonant from everything else I'm hearing. Not only in the secular world, but also in the Christian world. Like April said, everything that we just went through was not only Christian, it was conservative homeschooled Christians in the most dramatic kind of way. And we stood out like a sore thumb in the way that we were kind of positioning what we thought this event was about and how we were...
• 19:06
  kind of walking through this next season with our daughter. And so, yeah, it's difficult because I don't think that it's well known the impact this is having on the ability for young women in particular to think about, and this is kind of getting back to what Zuby was basically saying, that all the metrics are the same. Like when you get to this, when you look back at your kind of high school career, you look forward to college,
• 19:36
  What you want to see, I think culturally, what we want to see is that if you somehow erase the names at the top of both of those, you know, those transcripts or those bios, you would not be able to tell the gender. And that would be considered like a huge win. I think culturally, like I, I don't want to be able to know the gender.
• 19:53
  when I'm looking at what you've accomplished and what you're aiming at in the future. And I think we're saying, can we have a conversation about that? Is that a good idea? Like, is there a reason to actually potentially be able to tell the gender based on that? And maybe not make that the goal or make that an accomplishment. Are we taking a step forward or backwards instead of forward? So, yeah, Don, any thoughts? Well, and thinking like...
• 20:21
  Well, I was just gonna say, what are the long-term consequences? Like we're not thinking long-term. Yes. Like this, this is gonna play some play out somehow. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Donna, what are your thoughts on this? What does this turn up for you?
• 20:38
  Yeah, this is fantastic. I think it was just ripping off of what Brittany was saying. I think working time, watching that and listening to you guys around the story of humanity based on the Bible, like the sense of, from the very beginning, women need to be in control, men kind of showing up passively, and then this whole broken world that we live in and how things are showing up today. And I feel like,
• 20:57
  What comes up is also like women that need to be to feel safe and men needing to be honored. And I think looking back and from my own perspective, being raised in a family where I'm the first born in an Asian family, kind of raised like the son in some ways with how my father treated me. And I think in their effort to prepare me for the world, I was I was actually quite raised with this type of thinking into my 20s where, OK, yes, yes.
• 21:21
  be career-oriented, be capable. And some of my peers in some contexts where they wanted to be moms and make families, I remember kind of judging that and being like, well, that's it. So I really, on the one hand, resonated with that. And I have to say, after then having a bit of a career, being married for the last 13 years, I'm like, this...
• 21:41
  actually doesn't totally work well. And it didn't, at some point, a couple of years ago, didn't really lead to grinding, where those components of me wanting to be safe and then therefore control. And then my husband, the more I did that, the more the passivity increased. And I kept shooting myself in the foot and then maybe being critical and whatnot, and it's not actually working. And so I do wonder if this component of control and the need for it and in the spoken world living in it is kind of leading us further, further downwards.
• 22:11
  It's just even beyond, way beyond that now. So when you're, oh my God.
• 22:16
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• 22:48
  Yeah, that's good. Yeah, you guys have any, obviously that kind of resonates, Donna, with, I mean, that line from Genesis 3, your desire will be for your husband or to control your husband and he will rule over you. There's different ways to translate that exact verse, but it's, there does seem to be like a tension
• 23:05
  that is going to exist, that's a part of the fall between men and women, and specifically husbands and wives. And I think that part of the role of our faith is to help a husband and wife, especially early on, navigate that tension. And so you have to say very specific things about that tension. How do you resolve it?
• 23:24
  And I think that our culture has said we resolve it by making men and women, husbands and wives equal, not just in power, but in role. Like we want to eliminate roles. There's parent one, parent two. That helps you deal with the control, the safety. You can properly, and this, you know, is almost like a sort of a philosophy or from democracy. It's like
• 23:48
  It's like one person, one vote. There's two of us. So we both need to have one vote. And there aren't distinct roles in this very dynamic team. There is just a negotiation that endlessly happens to happen between the husband and the wife as, again, not just equal in power, but equal in every other way. And I think that that is not serving families really well. But it's incredibly difficult to have this conversation in the current climate within our culture because our culture has...
• 24:16
  you know, has really bypassed that and has gone much further down the road of, of trying to erase any kind of distinction between genders. And now it's like, I think you're starting to see the fruit that we were decades, I think, into this experiment. And now it's like, is it okay for us to backpedal and start to look at some of these ancient ways and scripture in particular, and just say, is there, did we, did we actually gain something or did we lose something? Yeah. Any other thoughts before we hit this other topic?
• 24:42
  any of you are having about this i'm just gonna say over the last three four years as i've been leaning into this and seeing fruit and that the more my husband i'm holding the more i allow myself to be led by him and him growing and creating a safe place i'm actually noticing as a mother like oh like more of my the safety to have that nurturing come out and then and that i don't need to so i've been seeing some of the fruits of that and it's very countercultural but
• 25:12
  It just, it's quite freeing. Yeah. And it's, yeah, very countercultural, but there's something about this. I think we're onto something for sure, right? Yeah. Excellent. I've definitely been on the same journey, not even knowing how much control I was taking and really the same thing, you know, me taking control and then my husband
• 25:42
  Okay, you've got it. You know, and that the cycle of control, passivity, control, passivity. And then all of a sudden it is not working and I'm coming crashing down. And he's like, what? You know, and intentionally choosing a different way has been something that we've been working through in that dance back and forth and choosing something different. And even my Christian friends.
• 26:11
  Ask lots of questions about that. And when I say, you know, God's not calling me to read that book right now because I want my husband to be spiritually challenged and pull us into that space. Sometimes that doesn't go over super well with some of my friends.
• 26:33
  Yeah, it's a very confusing topic, but I think what both Donna and Kristen, what you guys both said is that there's actually does something to a husband. I can certainly say that's true for me. There's an old adage that men won't do anything until they have to, and then they can do anything.
• 26:53
  And so that's a really difficult reality within masculinity, which is that we have a tendency to take the easy road. And so if we have a wife who's very capable and who's like, hey, I'll take that, I'll take this, I'll take that. There's a huge part of us that just is for most men that will just say, all right, well,
• 27:10
  I'll make the exchange. I'll have a lot. I'll give up power. I'll give up control. I don't really want to lead something. It's a lot of work. So if you'll take care of the family and just let me do my own thing, then it seems like that's a reasonable exchange and I'll take that deal. And man, that, that, that causes problems long-term in a family. And so, and so it's, it's, it's very difficult when you're capable to say, I'm going to, what you just described, Chris, and I'm going to wait for my husband or I'm going to, I'll, I'll try to follow his, his lead. And that.
• 27:38
  creates a certain kind of dynamic within the team itself. And this, this is very, a lot of people are here. This is very offensive. But again, I think you have to start from the perspective of team, right? Any, anybody could see this in a team environment. Like if, if you have different roles in a team and if, you know, if, for example, you know, on a football team, if the quarterback is, if everyone's like, look, look, the quarterback isn't, you know, isn't doing it right. We're only going to, you know, use running plays or something.
• 28:05
  The whole team suffers. You have to let each player figure out what their role is. And then you have to let them fail and struggle in order to maximize their particular role in the team. And it's in everybody's best interest. It isn't being selfish. It's in everybody's best interest that the team dynamic is honored. But I do think that requires there to be an understanding of the role itself. Yeah, Brittany, what are your thoughts?
• 28:30
  We do this community Bible study every other week where we invite the houses around us to come and just read Proverbs. And last week we were reading Proverbs. I was trying to grab my husband's Bible. I think it's five, but it's all in Proverbs. How Solomon is warning against the lust of a woman. And someone pointed out how for a man, this is roles again, for a man.
• 29:00
  Time and time again in scripture and in just our day-to-day world, what brings a man down? It's a woman. It's an affair. It's whatever. And I just thought, okay, like, let's look at that the other way. If we can be the man's greatest downfall, then we can be our man's biggest encourager. And my husband cannot live into his calling without me.
• 29:25
  laying my life down to encourage him and support him. And I know that sounds super old fashioned and I get that a lot from people. You just think really like pre-industrial revolution, but it's an honor to carry as a wife. I get to stand behind my husband and pray him into his calling, into his success and support him. So I think going back to roles,
• 29:51
  being able to say like, what's my role as wife or as woman? It doesn't make me less. It's an honor, an honor situation. Very cool. Thanks for sharing that, Brittany. Yeah, that's, I know. And that's, that's incredibly difficult, I think, culturally to accept right now. But I think it's so important to speak out loud and say that,
• 30:14
  Something has gone terribly wrong with family. And so we need to look at some of these examples from scripture, from pre-industrial family life. That's been so helpful for us. So I wanted to transition to another topic, which definitely can and relates to what we were just talking about. And that has to do with something I posted and then it kind of got a discussion going within Q&A.
• 30:33
  The, the mothers group. So I just wanted to get your guys' take on this and start with you, April. So, so one of the things that I have noticed that, that April did in our family was that, and I think there was a transition. So I'm really curious, April, how you would describe, you know, how this happened, but.
• 30:50
  But you began to really intentionally turn the hearts of our kids towards me. So this is what I wrote. I said, wives can turn the hearts of their kids toward or away from their father in a thousand subtle ways. My wife continually turns my kids' hearts towards me.
• 31:09
  And much of my influence in their lives is thanks to her. So I, this, this is something that felt like, like developed in our, in our dynamic within our home that you really led and championed and I got more and more.
• 31:24
  committed to over time. And now it's like, you know, next level. So we can talk about that, but I'd love to get all of the, all the mother's kind of feedback or thoughts about, about this. It seems like a very small and subtle area, but I think it's, I think it's incredibly influential, very powerful. So April talks, talk to us a little bit about how that happened in your heart and why you started doing that.
• 31:48
  Yeah, I think it started... I actually picked up on this from my parents. My mom was really good at turning the heart of my dad toward us, at least. And I think...
• 32:03
  She, my parents became new, became believers after they got married and then started having kids pretty much right after that. And so they were like new believers as they were learning how to parent. And so I think as my mom was learning things from the Bible, she was trying to encourage my dad like, oh, look, this is maybe how this would apply to the kids or apply here at home. And then he would be like, oh, but a lot of times.
• 32:30
  As a kid, I thought it was my dad's idea, you know, and then as a, I think maybe year eight, nine, 10 of our marriage, I would pick up on these conversations with my mom and she'd be like, well, actually, I mean, I kind of told dad that he should try to do that. I'm like, you did that family club thing we did? That was your idea? And she's like, yeah. I'm like, I totally thought it was dad's.
• 32:53
  And so what, and then I started being like, well, what about this? And what about this? And she was like, I mean, not to brag, but yeah, that was kind of like my idea. And so, and it made me, I, I came upon this verse in Jeremy, is it in Micah or Malachi? I always forget the spirit of Elijah. Oh yeah. Malachi.
• 33:12
  Malachi, where it says that the spirit of Elijah will come in the end days and that the last days, and that he will turn the hearts of the children towards their father and the hearts of the father towards their children. And my dad was obsessed with Elijah. And we didn't have this language back then, but I think my dad really carried the spirit of Elijah with him and was...
• 33:34
  proactively turning his heart towards us children. And I began to see how I was in certain ways preventing that, either...
• 33:48
  Standing in between Jeremy and my kids and our kids. Or I would even like if he was late in response, like they would ask him a question and he's off in space, not answering. I would answer for him. Or if like he was doing something I didn't like, I would question him in front of the kids.
• 34:09
  And then I realized that one of my daughters was taking up my offense and being like, yeah, dad, why are you acting that way? And I'm like, oh my goodness, this is not helpful. And so remembering what my mom had said about like, oh, it's actually kind of my job to help.
• 34:24
  both parties here, I think. So I would really build up with the kids, like, whenever daddy was coming home, it's time for daddy to come home. Or, oh, yeah, when dad gets home, you should show him that. Or they're just constantly reminding them that
• 34:39
  dad's coming and that he would like he would love to see that picture that you drew he would love to see those flowers that you picked he would love to hear about that crazy basket you just made in the basketball hoop like you remember to tell him that when he gets home so I was always saying that kind of stuff to them and then I remember a lot of it happening with Jeremy happening around the dinner table so he would not to throw you under the bus go for it but yeah
• 35:07
  Maybe he'd be a little like, you know, out like thinking about something else. And then there's whatever is happening at the table. And there's me very in tune to what's happening at the table. And so I could do, I could continue to do what I've been doing all day long with breakfast and lunch and throughout the day. Like sit down, stop blowing bubbles in your milk. Use your fork. Like I could keep doing this or I could turn to Jeremy and say, so Jeremy, I have a question or dad, I have a question.
• 35:35
  Do you think it's a good idea for kids to sit down on their bottoms when we're at the table? I mean, I'm just curious what you think. And then Jeremy's like, whoa, whoa. Okay, here I am. I'm sitting at this table.
• 35:52
  And I'm getting a cue from my wife that I need to pay attention to something. And so I had to kind of like turn his heart towards them and say like, look, they need or like, Jeremy, did you notice that, Elisa, she just showed you a picture that she drew? Did you did you like see it? Did you like?
• 36:11
  tell her it was pretty or cute or like, did you acknowledge it? And so we did that enough times. I think that he, I still have to kind of prod him a little bit here and there, but I think that over time enough of those, like, and then I could say behind closed doors, like, hey, this one really needs a verbal affirmation. Like you really need to say more to this one. She needs to hear your words saying this thing. And then, you know, to the kids, I just was always kind of like,
• 36:40
  keeping dad at the forefront of their mind. Dad would love that. Oh, you should tell him. Almost like this thing didn't really happen until we tell dad about it. Or let's text dad a picture of that thing we just did. That's so funny. Or, you know, that kind of thing. Like what you hear? Be sure to leave a rating and review for this podcast wherever you use streaming.
• 37:04
  Yeah, I've definitely experienced that. Like, it is difficult. Like, oftentimes I am distracted. And April has been so helpful, you know, when that's happening to notice. And, you know, I think I at first was very annoyed by that. Like, no, let me be in my own world. I want to keep my head in the clouds. I was thinking about something that was really important. I'm sure it's more important than whatever.
• 37:26
  what my kid needed, you know, and I, I, over time I started to realize, and I think part of it is just you, you do in a very honoring way. It's you don't nag and you know, you, you remind, but you watch me. And it's, it's a dance that you've been really careful with how to do this in a way that, that works really well for us. And I've, now I'm like, I just welcome it. It's been so important because I don't want to miss those moments. I don't want to, I want my kids to, to really understand how much I love them. And I don't want to. Yeah. Uh,
• 37:55
  And this is, I think the thing that really, what destroys this team dynamic we're talking about right now is the sense of competition we were talking about earlier. If you're, I think that some women, you know, if you start to resent your husband or get frustrated with him and you can make an ally out of your children.
• 38:13
  in the resentment you're feeling towards your husband. And this can be very subtle, but you're like, see, it just proves the point. It proves what, you know, how clueless he is. And so I've seen this dynamic in a lot of homes. And this is sometimes where you even see like the females in the house, sort of all feeling each other's frustrations with, with the, with the father or with all the guys in the house.
• 38:32
  And there's this horrible sort of gender tension starts to emerge in the, in the family. So, and I think the wife is sort of like, there's a, there's a role the wife can play in all of that to make it all about cooperation and collaboration. And I think the husband has to, you know, has to enter into that, you know, allow her to play that role.
• 38:51
  by actually listening and responding to what's happening there. But it's just amazing how much power in a good way I think mothers have to do this, to create this dynamic. So yeah, I'm curious if any of y'all have any experience with this or what this stirs up. Yeah, go ahead, Donna.
• 39:08
  Well, two points. One was that I still have two boys, eight and three. And what I've noticed in the last year is anytime I teach, we're just talking and I'll teach them something in white and they didn't know this. The first thing they want to do is go to daddy and tell them what they know. Or if we do something, we make something together or I help them build something. The first thing they want to do is like, you know, show daddy was just so cool. Like what am I? Chopped liver.
• 39:34
  But on the other hand, so I think, okay, I think something right there that's encouraging. On the flip side with my three-year-old, I'm noticing, like, my eight-year-old is really quite, like, newly connected to daddy. But the three-year-old is a little more connected, a little more attached to me. And he's actually been, a lot of times, we went, well, I don't want daddy. I don't want daddy. And I'm actually starting to see it.
• 39:54
  It makes him kind of sad. It also triggers other things for him. Like, he just needs to be wanted. But then going, oh, that just ignites for me. I'm starting to kind of do that. But then I think April, after you're sharing, I feel like I feel challenged to double down on that a little bit more. Really nurture that back in that direction. Because otherwise, he's going to lose so much without that journey, that connection with his father. So...
• 40:20
  Yeah, and I think because like kids are, they're different ages, they're different personalities, they're different, the two different genders, it all depends on how like one of them might feel like they're a burden or they don't want to bother dad. And one of them might feel like I want every single second of dad's attention. I don't care how I have to get it. Another one's going to be like, maybe fearful, like, oh no, what if, what if he doesn't like the thing that I made? Or, you know, so there are all these different things.
• 40:45
  um, approaches or like different attachment levels and things like that. So just being aware of those. And I think that that's how, what makes it really special when dad finally gets to the point where he's like, Oh, this one needs something different. I see, but that can take time and
• 41:05
  getting healed from some things he has or like overcoming something, things from his, you know, upbringing or whatever to be able to reach that kid or whatever. But that's part of the process, I feel like.
• 41:20
  that's really good and then just the other day when it happened again he like I think the giver was recognizing like oh I think God is showing me that this area is an area that's so it was like he was coming out and I was like oh that's yeah and so that's a good thing for me to encourage him on continue but that's a good thing to continue leaning into that thank you. I've got four kiddos so almost 11, 9, 7, and 3 and I have found I think
• 41:47
  Just as a woman, it's naturally easier to have that emotional connection with everyone in the room.
• 41:55
  And also very easy to use that connection to gang up on dad, you know, dad, let's do like, mom knows the temperature of what's going on. It's easy for mom to almost call the shots. And so we there, I don't remember what it, there was something the other day and I was like, let's, let's talk to dad. And dad said, no. And it was, oh, dad, you're the worst. You're so boring, you know?
• 42:20
  And I could have jumped on that train, but I just turned around. We were in the car and I said, hey, guys, we're going to honor daddy's leadership. We trust him and we're going to honor it. Although I do think our idea was fun and cool, but, you know, that's OK. We're going to honor dad's leadership. And I think it was a few days later, my husband's like, that meant so much to me. Like, basically, thank you for coming beside me. Right. But.
• 42:46
  As the woman, it's easier to do that when my heart's connected to him. Because I've seen when my heart feels disconnected, it is easy to be like, I'm just going to gang up on daddy with y'all. You know, I think we can be the great neutralizer in turning their hearts one way or the other.
• 43:06
  So just that phrase, like, we're going to honor daddy's leadership. And like Jeremy said, like, it's so easy for this woman to take that from him because we are the calendar keepers, the emotional regulators. Very easy for us to say, no, we need to go do this. But to step back and let daddy stand on that pedestal, I think, just shows them the proper steps, the honorable steps to take.
• 43:34
  Good. Awesome. Yeah, Kristen. I think in our house, we have six boys that are 18 to five, and some are more naturally gifted in the physical world, fixing things like my husband is. And some of them aren't, and they're wired a different way, more emotional or interested in different things.
• 44:06
  Ways that some of the boys just connect with him easily and he connects with them. And the others, I really think it's important for me to see their heart and things that are they're struggling with maybe that Jeremy doesn't see. And remind him or just bring that to his attention. Like you said, a little verbal praise would go crazy.
• 44:31
  so far here and i'm so thankful that i get to play that role i i am gifted in that temperature taking of the house and and then and then their hearts are connected they see each other more and it's just such a magical thing they start to trust each other and want to hang out with each other and connect more often
• 44:55
  It is such a win-win like you're describing. I feel like the fear of like competition or something at the beginning between the husband and wife at the beginning of like your marriage or something, beginning of parenting, like, oh, they want you and not me. And like that can feel competitive or something.
• 45:13
  But the long game is we want to all be a team. We want to all be together. We all want to enjoy being together. And teams have these, you know, we all, I kind of do the same thing, even amongst the siblings, turning their hearts towards each other, you know, but I feel like it's,
• 45:31
  just that verse always is in my head about that. That's actually in the Bible about, um, father's hearts turning towards their children. And like, do I have a role in that? Or what does that look like for, for me? And it's just so interesting that the mom gets to be a part of that. It feels like we're, it's like a superpower we have that we can choose to accept or not, but it is a win-win for the family dynamics, I would say.
• 45:58
  Yeah. Yeah. This is all by way of really, I think, I think part of what you guys are pointing out is it's really starts with believing that you are going to fight for the family first. And, and, you know, we all understand this in a team. We all understand that the nature of teamwork, and that is that it's, it's totally appropriate to make sacrifices that are going to lift the entire team up. That's what teamwork is all about.
• 46:21
  But for most people, they're not raising or building up families to be teams. Their families are really a collection of individuals. And so for a mom hearing this who may be in that kind of a family, you may actually lose something that is precious to you by handing some of that over to your husband because you've, it's, it's very scarce and you're not being a team. And what you've essentially done is, is you could have built an ally and now you've built an adversary.
• 46:47
  And that's such a tragedy. That's just a misunderstanding of the nature of family itself. And to build a family as a group of individuals in which there's a zero-sum game between every individual in the family and that you're trying to build allies and really, you know, triangulate, you know, against each other. You cannot let that kind of culture pervade in a family. You have to become a team. And part of the team dynamic is everyone.
• 47:09
  is going to lean maximally into their role for the benefit of the team as a whole. And that's when things really become amazing in the family. So awesome. Well, thank you all so much for being on this today. This was a great discussion and I appreciate you guys taking the time and teasing out some pretty complicated and some challenging topics.
• 47:31
  Thank you for listening to the Family Teams podcast. If you're enjoying this content or have learned something new, please make sure to leave a rating and review and share with a friend. To stay up to date with our events, new content, and products, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Family Teams.