Latest / Surviving-ISH Podcast / Terance Dawkins: Redefining Masculinity and Emotional Wellness

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Terance Dawkins: Redefining Masculinity and Emotional Wellness · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: In every dark tunnel, there's a glimmer of hope.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: In every painful moment, there's a strength to heal.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not alone, anyway.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: What I thought I could never get back.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to introduce today's guest.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: His name is Terrence Dawkins and man, I'm glad that we connected.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: We haven't actually really spoke yet, just via text through Facebook, but I'm glad that we connected.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: We haven't actually really spoke yet just via text through Facebook, but I'm glad that we connected and we're going to have a really good conversation today.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: We're both very passionate about what we do and men's health, so take a moment and introduce yourself to us.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: My name is Terrence Dawkins.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I'm a licensed clinical social worker in South Carolina, but I'm also licensed in North Carolina.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I currently work at a university's counseling center, but I also have my private practice, which is entitled Missing Pieces Counseling Services, and that's housed where I grew up, in the area of Spartanburg, south Carolina.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: So it was cool to come back home and be able to serve the community that way.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I went to University at Rock Hill where I got my undergrad and master's degree in social work and, like you said, I'm just very passionate about mental health in general, but also men's mental health as well, and trying to help others navigate some of the difficult times in their lives.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Because, I like to say, life is a puzzle and sometimes we might have all the pieces but we don't know how to arrange them, and so I think my job as a therapist is to help people what piece are missing or what piece are misplaced, and try to get them to put them in the right places so they can have that full puzzle picture of what they would want to be and live it that way.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I love the puzzle analogy.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: I think you hit the nail on the head.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: So many people have the tools, they just don't know how to fit the pieces together.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: What is it that got you interested in mental health and realizing that there is a problem in our society with it?
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll give you the long story.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I don't give people the long story.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: The long story was when you're in high school people say, oh, you got to finish high school, then go to college and get a degree and then get a job.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: So I was trying to figure out exactly what I wanted to do after high school.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: We had a trade school that we were contracted with in the area.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I could be a mechanic, I know how to swap out parts and fix cars.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: So I took an automotive class.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Didn't like it, it was too much science as far as working with cars.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: And then I was like, okay, computers are a thing, let me try to fix computers.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Didn't like that either.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: And then I was like, okay, computers are a thing, let me try to fix computers.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Didn't like that either.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, I can be a guidance counselor because they're very important and help the youth and it doesn't seem like they work too hard.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: So I said, oh, let's do guidance counseling.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: So I went and started majoring in psychology, but I had to get a minor and, searching for my minor, I took a social work class.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: It was better, I could do a lot more with it.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: So I majored in social work and then had a minor in psychology.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: But it all really went back to childhood where I saw my mom struggle with depression, anxiety and things like that and how it impacted her.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: And then I read this book called A Post-Traumatic Slave Syndrome and it made me realize the things that impacted her currently impact me.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: So this thing was like generational and that's like the framework that I use now when I work with clients is this is a generational thing that has to be broken somehow and someone has to be that cycle breaker.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: And what kind of stuck out to me was there's a lot of people that know how to that don't know how to navigate the struggles in life, including myself.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: So it started with a self-discovery, so trying to help myself figure out how to navigate mental health or depression and anxiety and understanding how my childhood impacted me, and then trying to help others realize that same thing and help their self-discovery.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: And luckily, with mental health, they give you a whole bunch of tools and theories and different modalities to use.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: But I try to when I work with my clients, I try to have a personal connection with them and use my own story to help inspire others.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Can you take a minute and talk about your knowledge with generational abuse and what that means from your point of view?
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course this can go in so many different directions.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: And I'll go off of the example you used about men and how men are supposed to just be these tough humans and, like you said, just supposed to fight it out.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: And that's how we show or display our emotions and feelings is we just get it out, we fight or we yell, we argue, we don't talk about it all, we suppress it.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: And then I started to think about, after doing some research, like where did all this come from?
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: If you want to take it to a historical standpoint and I'm just going to use the example of slavery just as a point, but it's in a whole bunch of different areas but with slavery, let's say, a man was to show different emotions, such as anger, sadness, frustration or anything like that, anything other than obedience.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Then the consequence would be killed, beaten, separated from family, sold, things like that.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: So, as a survival adaptation, what do they do?
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: They suppress.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: And then in a family standpoint, those family members learned okay, we can't show these different emotions, because then we're getting in trouble, then we're getting separated, something bad might happen to you.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So I tell you to suppress your emotions so we don't get in trouble.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: That gets passed down and passed down.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: But at first it was a survival mechanism, it was a survival adaptation.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: And then, even when you think about it now, it's still like a survival adaptation, because if you ask the question of why do people, or men specifically, don't talk about their feelings and emotions, oh, I'm afraid of being judged, I'm afraid of the stigma that comes with it.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be doing this, or if I do this, then this will happen.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: So it is a survival adaptation.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: But a lot of times we don't understand how these different survival adaptations once served us not just in our own personal lives, but they served us historically but how they're not serving us anymore.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: And that can show up in different friendships, relationships, show up at work, different things like that.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: But what happens is, like you said, innocently, I have an interpretation, I have an intention on what I want for you as a parent, and that would be I want you to be able to be safe, I want you to be able to navigate the world, I want you to be able to navigate relationships, and the only way that I know how to do that is teach you what has been taught to me.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: So that's how it gets passed down.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: If I was taught never to show my emotions or to hide my emotions, then I'm going to teach you the same thing.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: And again, my intention is to help you navigate the world and show you what the right and wrong way is.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: And if my right and wrong way is distorted in somehow, then yours is too.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And so the interpretation of that kid is I can't show my emotions because I get in trouble or I get yelled at or I get fussed at, or if I show my emotions, people are going to leave me.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: So that's how it's get passed down generationally passed down generationally.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's like that old saying that the path to hell is paved with good intent.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: None of our pain.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: My mother also has depression and which, luckily, we were always very active with therapy and outside resources.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: I've always wondered, if my dad was the one that settled with depression, whether that had even been discussed within our house, because it's taught to be a sign of weakness.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: So this whole thing of generational trauma started actually with a study done from survivors of the Holocaust and how the offspring of survivors of the Holocaust were more likely to experience PTSD symptoms.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: And that's how the study started with Dr Rachel Yehuda.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: And, like you said, this generational thing, it isn't tied to a specific race, it isn't tied to a specific gender.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: It's all tied to experiences and, like you said earlier, everybody's experiences is different and everybody might not be impacted the same way, depending on if they experience the same situation.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Responded to anger and frustration because they were dysregulated through yelling or through whoopings or anything like.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: That's going to have an impact on the child and it might not be intentional.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: And just like with, let's say, someone did experience sexual abuse or sexual assault at any point in their lives, they're going to have a view about their safety and security in the world and let's say they were to have a family or have children, even in relationships, that view is going to be distorted because of their experience and so now they're operating from a different I call it operating system.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: After they experience something, they have a new operating system and now they operate from that and they're going to teach and interact with people from that new operating system, and that's where how things get passed down, because we don't necessarily heal from the operating systems that's not serving us anymore or, at the end of the day, we're just simply trying to survive and the adaptations that we do make in life, whether that's closing off my feelings, whether that's being open about my feelings and trying to get people to connect with me because, as humans, that's all we want.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: We want connection with anybody, and that's the good thing about groups and I think that's why maybe they said hey, I want you to go to this group therapy because we heal in connection with other people and you can do individual therapy.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: But when you start to be able to see, oh, this person experienced something similar than I did, we have something to connect with and that kind of brings that healing community together and they see, we start to help each other.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sexual assault group therapy completely changed my life because I had developed a fear of men, especially straight white men.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: They were the ones that wanted to hurt me and kill me, and one of them tried.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And so, like in the beginning of this sexual assault group therapy, I was like I'm going to be locked in a room.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Sexual assault group therapy I was like I'm going to be locked in a room and of course it sounds more dramatic than it is because this is my brain working right.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be locked in a room with a bunch of men that all want me dead and that was terrifying to me.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: And but the first time that I went and sat down in there in that room, I found immediately that I was incorrect with that.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: But that was also a pat on my back right.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: That was a step toward my recovery.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: So I took this training and I talked about how, when we're dysregulated, we try to do things that's going to put us back in regulation.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: That's where the substance abuse comes into play and it boils all the way down into the different chemicals that we have in our brains, like dopamine and oxytocin.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: And when we do things such as maybe sexual things or maybe substance abuse or smoking or whatever addictive behaviors that we do, that is meant to give yourself one of those feel-good chemicals that increases.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: And what happens with substance abuse is when you do these different substances or behaviors, it increases that level that you need to feel good.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Pretty much that dopamine and oxytocin increase that feel-good emotion or feel-good chemical and you're always trying to reach that particular level.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Your tolerance increases because it's not reaching that feel-good emotion or feel-good chemical in your brain or in your body, and so we continue to try to search for that.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: But one thing that they were saying in the training is we need to be mindful of the other things in life that give us the same.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Like you said, instead of turning to substance abuse, I turned to a group of people that I can connect with and relate with, and that connection gave me the same type of feeling that a substance would have, but the substance is a negative way to do it because substance abuse can lead to other things.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: But connection with people is more healthier way to do it.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: And now I get the same fix, but I don't have the same problems.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: And another thing like about the neuroscience of it is you have to think about.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: When I explain how the brain operates, they'd be like oh so there's really nothing wrong with me.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I'm like no, that's just how your brain actually operates.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: So you have your amygdala, which is the alarm system.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Once the alarm system goes off, you go to the hippocampus, which is the memory center, runs through the memory center to see if there's any other previous similar situations that happen, and then sometimes it might connect it to a negative experience.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: And so your amygdala is going to be like oh, you're in trouble, you're in trouble and you're going to react to that.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: But then that means your prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for critical thinking and rationale, that goes offline because now you're operating from a place of threat.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Typically, if you were not in threat, it would go from amygdala to the hippocampus, to the cortex, so you can make sense of it.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: But sometimes when we're in threat.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: We can't make sense of it because the prefrontal cortex the part that's responsible to make sense of things is not really online.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: So the way to combat that is to try to take a moment to really become aware of when you're in situations like that, so that your prefrontal cortex can come online and you can make sense of it and then register it into the memory center as oh, this is not that bad.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Interesting A word that I attach to through therapy and the beginning parts of my trauma is the word reprogramming.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, because I so.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I had a healthy sex life up until nine years ago.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: So I'm 42.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: And so my attack happened when I was 34.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: And so up until 34, I had a healthy sex life.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: But that one thing changed my definition of sex and I immediately thought of sex as a bad thing.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Being intimate became a form of punishment.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And even though I've been through therapy and I'm working on things even now, my partner and I, we have to be very mindful of Sex and triggers and that whole reprogramming.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: And if I had this hard of a time trying to reprogram myself, I think back to when these children are sexually assaulted and they're taught what sex is by abuse abuse the way you said it perfectly.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: As a child their brains are fully developed and the part that's not really fully developed is the prefrontal cortex, which is response for critical thinking and reasoning and rationale.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: So as a kid, if I'm told that sex, if I'm sexually assaulted and I'm told that this means I love you, so as a kid I'm going to attach sex with love and that can lead to unhealthy sexual relationships growing up.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: But, like I said, your prefrontal cortex isn't developed so you can't make sense of what's happening to you.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: You can only really go off what they tell you and what kind of things are reinforced throughout the thing.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: And now that I think about it, that's why I probably and I'm just speculating at this point that when they say why don't kids disclose more sexual assault cases If it's done by a close family member or relative or friend of the family or anything like that, and they tell you can't tell anybody, then in your mind you're going to say, oh, I guess I can't tell anybody because this person loves me.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: And they say that if I tell someone then they're going to get in trouble and I don't want them to get in trouble.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: But again, the critical thinking and reasoning isn't fully developed, you go off of what you're taught and then that goes to another generational thing right Now that, hey, I'm told that this type of behavior is okay.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: So when I grow up, that, hey, I'm told that this type of behavior is okay.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: So when I grow up, maybe I'll become a perpetrator or maybe I'll start letting things happen to me or tolerate things I'm not supposed to, and then I teach that or display that to my child and it just keeps going and going Heavy stuff.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: It is definitely some heavy stuff, but you know what, like we're doing the work, even by talking about it, and that's what needs to happen.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: How long have you been in your career?
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I'm 32, finished my master's in 2017 and then started practicing as far as getting supervision at 18.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: So I'd say about five years.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Man, what a time to do it, because that's what I was going to ask you is.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So my podcast is three years old and one of the reasons I started it was because of COVID, the world shut down.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I did not realize how bad I needed my group therapy and losing that connection.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: You said you work for a university, so is it like college year students is the age range that you assist with?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: So about 18 and mid twenties and stuff like that.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I would love to hear the rollercoaster that you've seen with the years that you've been practicing, and then COVID happening Like.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I would love you to tell us about that.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Before COVID I don't think I'll start from this After COVID or during COVID.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: After COVID, I think the thing about mental health kind of blew up because, like you said, people were taken away from their connections, taken away from their social groups, which was helping them self-regulate.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: And now if I'm by myself locked in the house or I can't go anywhere, all the things that I use to self-regulate are taken away from me.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: So now I don't know how to manage these things.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And let's think about it from a parental standpoint.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: If I'm used to kids going to school and me having to go to work, or if I work from home, I'm having time to myself.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: But now kids are at home and now they're running and yelling and screaming.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Now the parent is going to get dysregulated and sometimes they don't know how to manage their dysregulation.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: So that leads to maybe some not so good parenting techniques or parenting styles, which again impacts the kid.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: And then you got the whole learning aspect where it went to e-learning and you know the kid not really.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: There's some kids that learn better in classrooms and not being able to learn with their particular learning style.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So there's a whole bunch of things and factors I mean that kind of impacts, mental health in general.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: So I think the whole thing of mental health spiked or increased, not because these are new problems.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: It's because the circumstances led to these problems becoming more apparent or more visible through the behaviors, through reactions and things like that.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: And so what you're seeing now is people that are in college.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: These are the people that were, you know, in high school when COVID started to happen, and so you see that they are not able to regulate some of their emotions, and their social ability to create and maintain friendships are as good as others, and that kind of plays a part into it.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: So you definitely see a difference between pre-COVID and after COVID, with some of the kids that are in college now.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like during COVID, grace was starting to be given and permission started being given to be given and permission started being given.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I think that we're all groomed and trained, and sometimes in a good, positive way, but groomed and trained a certain way and all of a sudden, now we have permission to feel things.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, because, if you think about it, some people never had permission to feel their emotions or weren't allowed to feel them or display them appropriately.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: So people want to feel safe, they want to feel heard and they want to feel understood.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: So if people can feel those three things, then you'll get like a healthy person as far as their behaviors.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: But it's all really about is this does this relationship, does this place feel safe to me?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Are they listening to me?
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Are they hearing me and what I'm saying and what I'm feeling?
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: And then do they understand?
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying what exactly I'm going through, but do they understand that I am struggling with this?
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: And if somebody can feel, that's a part of the whole group aspect.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: People feel seen, heard, understood in groups most of the time and that's what allows for that deep connection.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to be careful how I word this, because warm embrace looking back on the aftermath of it, and what I mean by that is when Katrina happened.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: When there's massive earthquakes, when there's something that affects a whole community, people forget about race, people forget about age, people forget about gender, they forget about sexual orientation.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: They all just pull together and help each other and because they're all relating, they're all in that boat and that bucket of chaos together.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: But then what happens is when the dust settles on things and that mess gets cleaned up, and then we're trained that that was yesterday's news you got to focus and go forward.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: You got to focus and go forward.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Then it goes back into those individual buckets of okay, now you're the gay man that's been sexually assaulted and you're the white man that had an abusive alcoholic father that has to sit down and shut up.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: And then there becomes a divide.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: And one thing that I have found that is so interesting to me is when there are those disasters, when hearing the stories of communities coming together and I just wish we could keep that when it happens, and I always try to find the good that happens and the bad, like I just have to.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: And if there was anything good that came from COVID was the whole world was experiencing the same stuff and so many people were united and in some cases they have remained united.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: But those divides are starting to happen again now that COVID is getting further away, and I just wish we could just hold on to that unity.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because, like I told you before, we heal in community, regardless of our past experiences, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, anything like that.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: If we can come together and show each other I know you've been through something, I know I've been through something, I know our past experiences do not define us, but we can work together not only to help each other heal but to live better lives.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And I think that is very important because as humans, we thrive when we have connection.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of the problems I see just within mental health or whether that's at the university or whether in my private practices some people they begin to experience a distress when there's not any connection.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: So if it's hard for me to make friends, or I feel like I have no friends, or I feel like me and my partner's disconnected, or there's some disruption in my family, it's always some type of disruption and connection that triggers anxiety, that triggers depression, that then triggers some of the child maltreatment and things like that.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: It's all about disruption and connection.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So if you can try to help an individual rebuild that connection with their parents, rebuild connection with their partner, rebuild connection with friends, you'll start to see that their mental health will improve.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I worked no longer, but during COVID I worked for a big corporation.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: During COVID the sales and what paid everybody's salary during that time was cigarettes and alcohol.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Like the, sales increased with beer and cigarettes and so that was one of the light bulbs that went off when you were talking about people are just looking for that high.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: If there's one thing in this world that does not discriminate, that is inclusive 100%.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: It is trauma.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Trauma is not.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: It is universal.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Everybody experiences some type of trauma, whether it's some people label it like big T trauma, little T trauma.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: I just call it experiences.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: And people experience things and no one can tell me or tell you or anybody what's traumatic to them.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: It's all about really how your body responds to the event Because, like I was explaining earlier, me and you can experience the same exact thing.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Your body or your brain is going to register it differently than mine does, based off of what I've been through in my life and my experiences of my life through in my life and my experiences of my life.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: And so any specific thing, whether it's loss, whether it's a sexual assault, whether it's a disconnection in a relationship, anything can be traumatic to anybody.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: But it's all about how your body and how your brain registers what's going on, what meaning did they attach to it and how is it, how is or is not integrated into, like your memory storage system?
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, One of the things that I love and that's part of my healing and my therapy is music, and that's pretty universal for people.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: That's usually everyone's go-to and just it is just so powerful.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: There's a song that I loved and knew for a long time.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: It's a Nandi song, and I'm not even going to say the name and title because I listen to female country music, so most of the time people are like I don't know what you're talking about.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: But the point is I knew this song for most of my life.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I can still to this day, sing it word for word.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: When you hear something at different, the same thing, you hear the same thing, but just at different parts of your life, and it hits differently.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: This song has nothing to do with what I've taken away from it in this new chapter in my life of recovering from trauma, but there's a line in it that just blows my mind and she says that might be what you heard, but that's not what I said and that just really sticks with me because, like when I related to trauma, when I related to if you and I experienced the exact same thing right now, and then we were separated and put into different rooms.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: There might be similarities, but the feeling and the emotion and the fears and the stuff behind it is going to be different.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: It's going to be explained differently.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: The colors, the smells, it's all going to be different.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: And that line in that song reminds me of that and I think about it all the time.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: That's not what I said, but that's what you've heard.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Think about it all the time.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: That's not what I said, but that's what you've heard.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing and I enjoy learning more about it Because, like I said, this whole thing about me becoming a mental health therapist started with self-discovery.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: So anytime I'm able to learn new information, the first thing that I do is try to figure out how does it relate to me?
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: If I can relate it to myself, that means I can make sense of it.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Then if I can make sense of it how it relates to me, I can better help and explain it to other people.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: And I want to praise you for that, because I have seen therapists.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: This may work for people and that's fine.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I always tell people that if you go and you sat with a therapist and you didn't connect, go find another one, because someone that would connect with that therapist is waiting in line needing them.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: You need to find the one that you connect with because if you don't, you're not going to show that bare, naked truth, raw emotion.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: At one time I did see a therapist, maybe for a day or two.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: I have the highest respect.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: The way that they did their treatment probably works for a lot of two.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I have the highest respect.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: The way that they did their treatment probably works for a lot of people, just not me.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: And that's okay.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: No one's right or wrong with that.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to make that clear.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: But I need and what fills my bucket is that connection.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate the fact that you say I need to share my experience.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I need to relate to people, to bring this around more toward the men's side.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: When Johnny Depp's story came out and so many things were exposed to the point that I felt guilty for watching, I woke up with one message to a man from California, who is military and that straight alpha man, and he was like I grew up idolizing Johnny Depp and I didn't know men could be abused.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: And apparently I've been going through the same stuff and I thought I couldn't be abused, I didn't know I could have been sexually assaulted.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I didn't know these things and what really stood out to me and it became a snowball effect is, they said, with Johnny Depp saying this and speaking about this, I still see him as a man and that was what was commonly said.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: So did you experience like a wave of men being more vulnerable and vocal.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: I think I experienced a lot of men probably wanting to get more help with mental health in general, whether that's through grief, or they had, like I said, that disconnection in a relationship with their partner or just felt like they were.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: They've been feeling stuck or just you know, real sad and down, or even that they said, hey, I need help with managing my anger.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I have seen an increase in that and I love that because you know, historically it's been.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Don't talk about it, just you're supposed to be the breadwinner and you know you go to work, take care of your family.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: And what do men typically?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: What do some men do?
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: They go to work, they work this hard job, work all these hours, pay the bills, come home, maybe sit down and they're disconnected from their family at that point because maybe they want some me time and sometimes I guess they drink a beer or something like that.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: That's what I guess people consider the manly thing oh, let me go home and have a beer or something like that.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: But the important part of that is it used to be men would go home and just disconnect, disconnect from partner, disconnect from children, and now I'm starting to see that now they will probably want that connection, so now they're trying to seek help.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah we still have a long way to go, but the fact that, like the ball's rolling, may I ask you most of the people in my life?
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I'm so honored to have such a diverse group of people in my life.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Most of my friends are straight men and I love when they come to me and they're like you know what, like I'm feeling a certain type of way about something, and they're because we're starting to allow that permission and I always look at ways to let them know that, dude, you're not less of a man by acknowledging that you feel something and honestly, I'm like dude, women eat that up.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: If anything, you're going to get women acknowledging that and feeling comfortable, because so many women will say that I'm afraid to reject you, because I'm afraid I'm going to get hurt, and this is starting to shift into a different direction, hopefully.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: So when men come to you and they're like they're looking for that permission, that what they're doing is, by seeking help, is not damaging their masculinity, what do you say to them?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: normally it's more.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I try to take it from a perspective of trying to, at the beginning, figure out what are their core beliefs about me coming to therapy, me talking about my feelings and how other people might perceive it.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I try to develop that first.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: So figure out what is it that you believe about these things and that could also relate to what is it that you believe about depression, anxiety and what's triggering and all that stuff.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And then, after I've developed the belief, then I go into having them challenge it, maybe having them reframe it a little bit, or I'll go to using some other therapy modalities.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: But then, once we get to a place where I'll see a shift in some of their behaviors or in some of their how they speak about their emotions, I returned back to that core belief and it was like, hey, what do you think about this now?
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: And sometimes I love it when I'm in a session and you get these people that have men or any other clients.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: They have this like aha moment.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, man, that makes sense.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, so I like to tell people it didn't start with you.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: So this core belief of I can't talk about my feelings, I can't talk about my emotions.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: My emotions are bad.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Emotions are things to be or feelings.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Are this thing to be afraid of?
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Really, the emotions and feelings that you're experiencing are meant to share some bit of information about whatever's going on, whether you like it, whether you're scared of it, whether you dislike it, whether you want more of it.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: It's telling you something, but you don't listen to it because you're afraid of it.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: But if you take the time to really figure out and become curious about what are my emotions trying to tell me, about what I'm experiencing in this moment, you will then start to learn more about yourself, about what you like and what you don't like.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: And once you give people that language to say, hey, I'm feeling angry because and not using the I like to use I statements and I'll hate using two words I hate using the word you and I hate using the word but Because you points finger and blame the word but negates everything that you said before.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: So I like to use I and so I might say somebody might express how they feel towards me and even if I disagree with it, I'll say I understand what you're saying and I also believe this.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: And then, as far as the I statement, if I'm trying to communicate with a friend or partner or children or whoever, I might say something like.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Whoever I might say something like, I am feeling upset because when this happened it made me feel blank.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: So, instead of saying you made me feel upset, no, they didn't make you feel upset.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: What they did made you feel upset because of how it made you feel.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: So it's not about the person, it's about what they did or what they said and how it made you feel.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: And that's what you need to communicate not trying to point blame, because when you point blame, that person feels attacked.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Now they're going to be on the defense.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: And guess what happens when they get on the defense?
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: You're going to be on the defense.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Now, nobody's productive.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: If you change these small things and try to understand what kind of, in a way, ticks people off, if you change those, you'll start to see people become more open about stuff and you'll start to see people expressing a lot more, because now they feel like again they see me, they hear me, they understand me.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: So it's just the small changes and the small things like that that people don't realize can change how you connect with people.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like your approach on like I could picture you sitting with someone and then talking about emotion and depression and you say, okay, let's break that down.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: What is emotion to you?
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: What is depression to you?
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: One of the questions that I always ask is what I get often is men aren't supposed to do this.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Like men don't feel this way, men this.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: And so I was like what is a man to you?
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Let's start there, tell me what a man is in your eyes.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: And it never fails.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: They always say, I'm told a man is this.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, what do you think of me?
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: And then they start breaking it down and they have those aha moments and then it's like I get chills with it.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: I'm sure sometimes you just get in your car, just laugh and celebrate because you had a good damn day helping somebody.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, man, and those are the days that really keep you going as a therapist is when, even if you make someone cry, it depends on the context, but if you make someone cry, that's oh man, I really had them have this real connection with themselves and connection with their mind and their experiences, that they got emotional about it and you feel accomplished, not because you made someone cry, but because of what the tears meant for them.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Right, it's not that negative, it's that cleansing cry.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: It's because when I have people on my show and they start crying and what they have even said is it's cleansing.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: But I provided a safe place for them to show an emotion that they would usually have to hide in the closet to experience, and so they were given permission and they felt safe enough to show that vulnerability.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Having that safe place for them to be vulnerable, to say, I've never told anybody that, I've never even really said that out loud before, or I've never really accepted that myself, that this had this impact and they become emotional.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, I did that.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I love moments like that.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: I do have one more question for you Self-care.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I want to know what you do for your own self-care, because, having this job and this career path, we bring in a lot too, and so there are things I have to do for myself that is not selfish to tend to myself.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Can we talk about self-care and what you do for yourself?
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: So I'll be completely honest, I need to do a lot better with my self-care, but some things that I do, I have a motorcycle, I ride a motorcycle, so I love that.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: I haven't been doing it lately because of the weather, of course, but that's one of the things that I enjoy doing.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's dangerous.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, it has its risks.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: That's something that I've always enjoyed.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: But my mentor I've seen some things that she was doing for self-care and I'm going to start adapting that at least once a month.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: It's this called flotation therapy.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: So what it is, it's like this big old tub and it's like an egg in a way, and what it has, like this hood, and they put water and I think it's like Epsom salt or some type of salt into the water.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: So pretty much when you lay in it, you float and you into the water.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: So pretty much when you lay in it, you float and you can close it if you want, but you pretty much just lay there and just being able to focus, supposed to help with meditation and clearing your mind and things like that.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: So, whatever you're comfortable with, you can close it, you can leave it open, that's whatever.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: And she does that.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: She goes to the sauna.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: There you can get a massage and it's like a real cool place.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try it out and I'm going to do that flotation therapy and I'm going to at least do it once a month.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: So that's something I'm going to incorporate into my self-care.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: But something that really fills my cup and drain it at the same time but fill it for the most part is spending time with my family, whether that's just watching sports or just having random conversations and things like that, especially with my mom, my sister, my niece, nephew, my cousin.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: That's like my brother.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: But sometimes you just have to, even if you don't do those things at home, listen to music.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Like you said, I'll turn on some music, maybe I'll start cleaning or maybe I'll just lay around and listen to music.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: But it's taking the time to really disconnect from everything that's going on, instead of always being on autopilot like, always feeling like I have to do something.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: And that goes back to the whole generational thing, because I've always seen my mom working herself to death because she needed to take care of us, and that's what I adapted was I always have to be doing something in order to be okay, but it's okay not to do anything, and that's something I'm trying to re-parent or re-teach myself, reprogram myself to understand.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: So if you're having a problem with self-care, really take a look at why you're having the problem.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: For me, it's because I saw my mom constantly working and that's what I adapted that I always have to be working.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: For other people it could be something else.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: So that would be the key to trying to figure out why am I having so hard of a time with self-care?
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Figuring out what is it that you are, what is it that's keeping you from it, what is that core belief, like I said earlier, and trying to be mindful of that core belief and be like it's okay.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I don't always have to be doing anything, I can relax, because if I don't relax, I can't do my job, which my job is to try to help heal people.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: So I've got to take care of myself in order to do that.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Man, I see the spark in you, I hear you talk and I'm so glad that your community has you.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I can tell you're a safe place.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I've been like.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I looked up and I was like, oh my gosh, it's already been an hour and I feel like I could sit and talk to you all day long.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: This is just so healing.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: So kind of to end on a fun question, because I have a suggestion, depending on what your answer is, but it's a fun good thing, depending on what your answer is, but it's a fun good thing I can see that thirst and that drive in you, and so what you're doing now, I feel, is just a stepping stone to the next big picture for you.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: What do you want to do going forward, because I don't feel like you're stopping here.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: It's funny.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: You mentioned that I love doing the individual one-on-one therapy and what also I'm getting into more that I started last September is doing more workshops and trainings.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm doing Going to conferences or going to seminars and presenting on intergenerational trauma and how that impacts people's belief about themselves and the world, their relationships and their behaviors.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: So really presenting on that I feel like I can touch more people.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: That way I can help train other clinicians to use a framework similar to how I use or even teach people in the community how to look at things a different way, so they can be cycle breakers and pass on positive things instead of negative things.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: I've been doing that.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: I've also been working on these therapy cards that will be coming out soon.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: The way I've structured them is they have a prompt follow-up questions.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: They can be used for therapy for couples if they wanted to get to know their partner a little.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Questions.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: They can be used for therapy for couples if they wanted to get to know their partner a little better.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: They can be used for anybody that want to be on different environments and they're called Black Trauma Cards Black acronym for building language, awareness, connection and knowledge, because I think all those things.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: It helps you heal from your trauma If you have the language to tell about it, to speak about it, to explain it.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: The awareness about how things have impacted me, or awareness about my behaviors, making the connections to past experiences, making connections to how is this impacting relationships, how is this impacting my job, and then building the knowledge in order to move forward and heal.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: I've been working on those and those should be coming out soon.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: So there is a lot of things I'm working on.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: That's again, like you said, I'm always doing something, I always feel like I'll be doing something, but I really am trying to get into the whole workshop training and speaking thing.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: And I, so I always say that I'm very vocal about my story.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: My story was very public.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: I didn't have a choice to be vocal.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I woke up one day and all of a sudden I was plastered all over news, media and people creating narratives, and so being vocal and open about my story is a way that I have regained that control and redirected the narrative, which has been amazing.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: But what I always say is the path that I'm on is being designed for me as I go, and what works for me might not work for you, but you could probably take pieces of mine and build your own, and so I want to be an endless amount of resources.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: With that being said, as workshops come out, as the black trauma cards man, I cannot wait for that.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Please email me the links and let me post them on our page, because my community is growing and we're also loving and supportive and we share books on there that we recommend for each other.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: When I said I had a suggestion as soon as you logged in, as soon as we started talking, I immediately had just the sigh of relief.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I knew it was a safe place and it was going to be a great conversation.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: But your voice, man.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: It needs to be heard.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Not just because brilliant things are said.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: But you have such a nice voice.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: I'm like I need him to do audio books.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I need to have him in my earbuds reading to me and telling me stories and teaching me about trauma, because you're somebody I want to listen to.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: The funny thing you said that, man, I always had a problem with accepting my voice, not necessarily how it sounds, but my voice as far as feeling like maybe it had something important to say.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Voice as far as feeling like maybe it had something important to say.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Or when I was in school I tried to change my voice and how I sounded to sound like a therapist.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: And the best advice I ever got was one of my professors said Terrence, you did a great job, but I just want you to be yourself.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: And I said, oh, that makes a lot of sense.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm finding that people are becoming more receptive of me being myself, being my authentic self, and that kind of displayed what you said there.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: So I really appreciate that.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: And that wraps up another powerful episode of Surviving Abuse.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our incredible guests for sharing their transformative journey with us today.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Join us next week as we dive into the healing process and share more incredible stories of triumph and resilience.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm back In the back.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Goodbye, now I'm back.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: And I'll pray for you.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: I'm done hurting.